October 1, 2025 Show with Josh Miller AND Scott Aniol on “The Presence & the Power of the Holy Spirit”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this very first day of October 2025.

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I'm absolutely thrilled to have two wonderful brothers in Christ and friends on the program today.

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We are going to be joined by Josh Miller, pastor of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and accompanying him is

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Scott Anial, author, conference speaker, and president of G3 Ministries and professor of pastoral theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas.

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Today, both of these brethren are going to be addressing the theme, The Presence and the

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Power of the Holy Spirit, and we're also going to be announcing the upcoming conference this

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October at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, featuring keynote speaker

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Scott Anial on the very same theme, The Presence and the Power of the

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Holy Spirit. Well, first of all, let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Josh Miller. Hi, Chris.

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Good to be with you. It's great to have you back, and please tell us about Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

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All right. Well, Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, we are actually celebrating our 100th anniversary of proclaiming the gospel here in Harrisburg.

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And I have only been here 14 of those years as a preaching pastor, but praise the

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Lord for that ministry. And you started when you were six years old when you started.

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No, go ahead. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Oh, that's all right. Our church is a part of a smaller denomination called

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Bible Fellowship Churches. We are mostly scattered throughout the

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Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania, but have churches in New Jersey and New York and Maryland.

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And some, actually, we have a church in Florida and a church in New Mexico. And in Mexico, we have a couple churches.

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And that denomination, wasn't it formed from those who left the

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Mennonites? And most of those congregations are theologically Reformed and Baptistic, from what

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I understand. Correct. That is correct. We actually, up until the late 1950s, were under the name

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Mennonite Brethren in Christ. So we always joke about, you can't get more Anabaptists, you can get

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Mennonite and Brethren into your church name. But Mennonite Brethren in Christ, yep.

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And there, by God's grace, we shifted theologically through the 50s and 60s under various influences.

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But some key leaders really came under the influence of other Reformers, went to Westminster Theological Seminary and Faith Theological Seminary at that time.

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And at this juncture, we subscribe to a

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Calvinistic understanding of the application of redemption practice.

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As far as our polity, it would be an elder -ruled local congregations.

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The highest office within our denomination is the local elder. There's no hierarchy outside of that.

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And I can answer any more questions you want to know. But that kind of summarizes who we are. And the website, for those of you who are interested in finding out more about Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, is gracebfc .com,

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gracebfc .com. And please send my greetings to my dear friend and one of your elders,

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Don Maurer. I believe I saw him in the very large audience at my recent

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon. And I was so busy with the large crowd that I forgot to make my way over to him and greet him.

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So not only say hello to him for me, but send my apologies that I never greeted him.

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I'm almost positive it was him that I saw. Yes, I believe he was there, and I will pass that along to him,

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Chris. You should also rebuke him that he didn't bring flyers for this conference.

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And we also have, as I mentioned earlier, Scott Anial with us today on the show.

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And it's such a great joy to have you on the program again, brother. Yeah, Chris, great to be with you again.

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Well, please, even though I'm sure most of my listeners are familiar with G3 Ministries, I do know that we have a growing audience, some of whom may not have heard of G3, especially since not all of our listeners are

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Reformed. So why don't you tell our listeners about G3 Ministries, where you serve as president?

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Yeah, absolutely. We're always interested in sort of introducing ourselves to new audiences. So G3 Ministries exists to educate, equip, and encourage

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God's people with biblical truth for faithful living. And it started as a conference, and we still host conferences.

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We have a conference coming up in February, February 12th through 14th here in Atlanta, and expanded a couple of years ago now to being a content -producing ministry.

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So we have a publishing ministry where we publish lots of books, a streaming service,

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G3 +, a church network, just lots of different ministry arms in order to accomplish our mission.

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And so we just encourage people to visit g3men .org, where they can find a lot of those resources, and subscribe to G3 +, and come to our conference in February.

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Great. And I'm sure all of those details for the conference will also be at g3men .org.

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And now tell us about this wonderful seminary where you serve on the faculty alongside my longtime dear friend,

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who was just recently my keynote speaker at my most recent

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon. But tell us about Grace Bible Theological Seminary and your role as professor of pastoral theology.

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Yeah. So it's a wonderful seminary located in Conway, Arkansas. Some of the students are there in Arkansas, but the

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MDiv degree, as well as some other programs can be accomplished from a distance as well.

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And Dr. Jeff Johnson started the seminary out of the church a number of years ago, and it's really grown.

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The Lord has blessed it. It's a wonderful training ground for particularly Reformed Baptists, although we have even some

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Presbyterian students and some others there as well. And I serve on faculty and teach regularly.

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I teach every year a course on research and writing, intro to seminary, and then I'll teach various courses throughout the year, theology, taught a course in Christology recently, the

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Psalms, worship, various doctrinal issues, pastoral theology, systematic theology, those sorts of things.

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Well, if anybody wants more details about Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, visit their website, which is gbtseminary .org.

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If you could also, Pastor Miller, tell us about the conference that is coming up where Scott Anuel is your keynote speaker in October on the presence of the

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Holy Spirit. Tell us about that, and also tell us about why you were led to choose that topic.

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So the conference will be a Saturday to a Sunday, so it's a mini -conference of sorts on October 25th to the 26th, and as Chris mentioned, the title of that conference and theme is

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The Presence and Power of the Holy Spirit. This has been something we've done now for eight years.

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This is our eighth annual little mini -conference, thematic conference in October. They've been smaller.

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They've been as far as it's been, sometimes we've done them three days. This one's just a two -day one.

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And it really is meant to be a gift to our congregation that we open up to anybody who wants to come.

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We bring in a speaker who has written on a topic, specialized in an area, to speak to that issue regarding why this specific issue really came out of preaching through the

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Gospel of Luke and coming to the end of Luke and the promise of the Holy Spirit and lots of questions

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I had and excitement about it and then going into Acts. And at that same time, I was doing ministry in West Africa, in Sierra Leone, and was reading and studying on the topic of revival and revivalism, reading

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Ian Murray's book Revival and Revivalism, his book Pentecost Today, and was just influenced by that and said, well, why don't we do a concentrated look at this?

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And that's really how the conference came about, those themes coming together, the continued ministry of the

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Holy Spirit. If you are familiar with what goes on in Big Tent Christianity, you know there's quite a bit of perversion regarding that topic, but also don't want to miss what the expectation should be about this promise of the

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Holy Spirit, out of fear of maybe going into error and emphasizing things that shouldn't be emphasized, seeking things that shouldn't be sought.

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We don't want to miss where the Spirit is moving presently in powerful ways, and to expect that and to pray for that.

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And yeah, so that's really the impetus behind it. Amen. And once again, for details on the conference, go to gracebfc .com.

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Gracebfc .com, I always love attending the conferences at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

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And Pastor Scott, you are thoroughly equipped to be a keynote speaker on this issue.

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One of the reasons is that you have written a book, Holy Spirit, God of Order.

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Why don't you tell us about that book? Yeah. I think this is such an important topic because, as Pastor Josh mentioned a moment ago, there is so much abuse in the modern charismatic movement that's worldwide, that's really wreaking havoc upon the church.

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But it has often led to us being afraid to talk about the Holy Spirit. So that's really why

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I wrote the book. We at G3 did a conference last fall, about a year ago this time, on the doctrine of cessationism, kind of addressing some of the abuses of the charismatic movement.

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And we had published a book, a fantastic book, by Tom Pennington on the doctrine. And so we felt like that was a necessary thing that we needed to do.

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However, I thought, well, I want to write something that's sort of a positive presentation on what the

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Holy Spirit's active work is today and how we should be understanding and anticipating the work of the

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Holy Spirit. And that's essentially what I'm doing in that book, Holy Spirit, God of Order. And as the subtitle communicates, what

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I'm arguing in the book is that, of course, the Holy Spirit of God, as the third person of the triunity of the

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Godhead, has been actively at work since the opening of Genesis in creation and throughout the

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Old Testament, throughout the New Testament. His coming at Pentecost introduces certainly a new stage in his work among the church,

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Christ's body. But the Holy Spirit has always been at work. And if we look at how the

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Holy Spirit actively works, whether it be in creation, the giving of revelation, even the miraculous works he did in the

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Old Testament and in the New Testament during the ministry of Jesus and his apostles, even those, and then certainly his work today present among his church, you really could summarize the

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Holy Spirit's work as one of bringing to order the purposes and plans of God.

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And I think if we understand the Holy Spirit's work through that framework, then we shouldn't be afraid to talk about the

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Spirit's current presence and active work among his people, but rather we can celebrate it, we can recognize it as something that we need, that without which no one would be saved and no one would be sanctified and believers wouldn't be comforted and convicted by him.

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There are so many things that would not be taking place to bring sinners to salvation and to sanctify

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God's people, if not for the active work of the Holy Spirit to bring God's plan to order.

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And so really, that book is a sort of positive presentation. It certainly addresses some of the questions surrounding charismatic theology, but it's more from a perspective not of attacking them, but of presenting what does the

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Bible say that the Holy Spirit's work has been throughout history, and what ought to be our expectation today regarding his work among us.

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And Pastor Josh Miller, feel free to chime in whenever you want to, to ask a question of Scott Anial, and just as long as you see a break or hear a break in the conversation.

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But I wanted to ask you, Pastor Josh, as a pastor, what have you, in your experience as a pastor, seen and heard from congregation members and visitors over the years that reflect somewhat of, for lack of a better term, ignorance of the person and work of the

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Holy Spirit, and just perhaps a shallowness and so on, that needed correction?

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One of the reasons I'm sure that you are holding this conference is because they're existing in the church, such confusion and falsehood about the

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Holy Spirit. Not that there may be a rampant problem like that in your congregation under your teaching and so on, but even in the best of churches, you will meet folks that you could tell after a conversation are having a bit of a hard time understanding certain biblical truths.

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So over the years, what have been, in your memory, the most prominent errors that people carry on about the

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Holy Spirit? That's a good question, Chris. I can honestly say that, again, the impetus behind the focus of this conference isn't necessarily error or wanting to correct error in some way.

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But in answer to your question, I could definitely see that there is this attraction to connect some type of ecstatic experience with the

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Holy Spirit. And I want to be careful because I think that we hold out exaltation as a goal every

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Sunday. We should be moved in our affections. We should be directed in our love toward the

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Lord. So I don't want to diminish some type of emotional response to the

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Lord to disparage that in any way. But we can sometimes equate—we need to feel the

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Spirit in some ecstatic way as some verification that the Spirit is moving. So there is both this caution to, we don't want to despise the day of small things.

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Like, what is the Spirit doing? And even, what is the phrase in 2

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Corinthians 3 .18? And we all with unveiled face beholding the glory of the

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Lord are being transformed in the same image from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from the

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Lord who is the Spirit. And so that can be seen as a small thing, one degree to another.

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And so there is, I don't want to fall into the error, and I've seen that error of connecting it with some level of ecstasy, an ecstatic experience.

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I think we can correct that error. But also, maybe on the other side of the road, the other guardrail is not to diminish those movements of the

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Spirit, of an outpouring in a special way, that the

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Spirit moves in a concentrated way, where there are, I mentioned Ian Murray's book

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Pentecost Today, he refers to them as larger measures of the Spirit of God. And to pray for those, we might call those revivals.

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And of course, that needs a definition of what is a biblical revival. But in conjunction with what

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I'm reading, I'm reading numerous books on the Great Awakening and evaluation of those things.

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So those would be, I guess, the two guardrails that I'm seeing is one like this equation of the movement of the

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Spirit to some ecstatic experience. And unless you have that, you don't reckon the Spirit isn't moving. But as Scott just detailed, the only efficient means in the application of redemption is the

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Holy Spirit. And so people are getting saved, the Spirit is moving, and we need to celebrate that.

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There is no salvation apart from the active movement of the Holy Spirit and bringing that and applying that redemption to the soul of man.

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And then on the other side is you might have those who are scared of any, again, that phrase, larger measure of the

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Holy Spirit that could manifest itself in conversions, large amounts of conversions, conviction of sin, restoration of relationships, humility and the fruits of the

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Spirit that would blossom in a concentrated form in the congregation. So, yeah, walking down that road.

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And we're going to pick up the conversation when we return from our first commercial break. If you have a question for my guests today,

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Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and also

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Dr. Scott Anuel of G3 Ministries. Our email address for your questions is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

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today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now back with Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and also

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Scott Anuel, the president of G3 Ministries. And we are discussing the presence and the power of the

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Holy Spirit. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you have questions, give us your first name, at least city and state and country residence.

30:34

And Scott Anuel, the misconception that many people have outside of the

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Reformed faith and perhaps even especially within charismatic and Pentecostal churches, is that if you are

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Reformed and there are, they would probably hurl this accusation against anybody that's a cessationist or a non -charismatic individual pastor or church.

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But especially it's ironic that they would hurl this accusation against the

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Reformed that we are denying the power of the

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Holy Spirit when we are the ones who actually believe that we are more dependent upon the

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Holy Spirit than they are, because we believe the Holy Spirit is necessary for us to even believe savingly.

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And we believe that we need to be quickened first by the

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Holy Spirit and brought to new life before we can even please God with a saving faith, before we can repent.

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And so, therefore, we do not have an impotent or anemic or weak

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Holy Spirit. We have a Holy Spirit that always accomplishes what it seeks to do, what he seeks to do.

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Am I off base here? No, I think you're exactly right.

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I hear those charges a lot. We're accused a lot of, you know, denying the existence of the

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Holy Spirit or the continuing work of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes we're claimed to be deists who, you know, believe that God just sort of set things on in motion and then left us alone.

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Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, as you mentioned, you know, we want to emphasize, we need to learn to delight and marvel even more at the continual present work of the

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Spirit when, as Josh mentioned, sometimes we don't even see that activity of the

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Spirit in some sort of visible, ecstatic, you know, external way.

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But rather, we need to be looking for the ways in which he continually works in and through his word to save, to sanctify, to comfort, and to convict.

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And I think it actually is the opposite, because when your expectation is that the

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Holy Spirit is only working when there's something extraordinary, something miraculous, something ecstatic, and you're seeking for that, then when those things—there are several problems with that.

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Number one, when those things don't happen, then people begin to wonder, well, is

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God really present? Is God really active? I'm not seeing, you know, this ecstatic experience, or I'm not feeling this ecstatic experience myself.

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And so they begin to wonder, is God really present? And that also leads them, then, not to recognize the manifold ways in which he is working through the ordinary.

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Like Pastor Josh mentioned, the small things, which are, they seem small, you know, the preaching of the word, the sanctification of sinners, sinners coming to salvation, you know, maybe in not, you know, not this massive, you know, sort of external emotional experience, but simply coming under conviction of the

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Holy Spirit, repenting of their sins, putting their faith in Jesus Christ. These are seemingly small things and ordinary things.

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Sometimes we refer to these things as the ordinary means of grace, reading the scriptures, preaching, prayer.

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These are the ordinary means of grace. But if we recognize that the Spirit is working in and through all of these things, then they're anything but ordinary.

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And we need to learn to marvel and delight in the ways in which the Holy Spirit is actively working.

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And then I completely agree with what Pastor Josh mentioned. There are times in which the

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Holy Spirit will, you know, in the sovereignty of God, he will determine through his spirit to do this in larger measure, to bring many, many people at once to faith in Christ or to sanctify many, many believers and give them kind of an extra jolt of sanctification in a short amount of time.

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But even then, he's still doing the same things in the same way.

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He's just doing more of them at once. It's still through the preaching of the word, through prayer, through the reading of scripture, through these ordinary means of grace, and it's up to God.

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Like, we're not changing our methods. We're not trying to do something in order to create revival.

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This is the difference between revival and revivalism. Now, the difference between the first great awakening and the second great awakening, the difference between Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney.

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Jonathan Edwards referred to the great awakening as a surprising work of God. He was simply faithfully preaching, faithfully praying, faithfully urging people to repentance, and God chose to work miraculously.

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Finney and those during the second great awakening tried to do things in order to create revival when it ultimately is

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God's work. So, we need to learn to delight in and marvel at the way that the Holy Spirit continues to work, and then, yes, absolutely pray that in his timing and according to his good pleasure, he will bring many people to a saving faith of Jesus Christ and many believers to a greater depth of sanctification.

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Amen. And wouldn't you say, you could both respond to this, we'll start with Josh since Scott was the last to speak.

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Wouldn't you say that there is definitely an element within our theological circles that unfortunately and sadly gives the impression to those outsiders, for instance, those who are

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Charismatics and Pentecostals, it gives them the impression that we are devoid of the

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Holy Spirit, because sometimes in some congregations there is an appearance of joyless, dry, stale, lifeless worship.

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And even the way that people perhaps conduct themselves on a regular basis in the body of the church,

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I don't think that I'm exaggerating that that exists. Do we not need to be careful about that?

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So I totally understand what you're saying, and I would agree to an extent.

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Obviously, you have to be careful to try and correct impressions. I'm not in the game of trying to correct people's impression of me.

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I definitely want to protect against error. I want to protect against maybe swinging the pendulum the other way.

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In an exaggerated way where you diminish, you know, joy is a fruit of the

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Spirit. So we want to demonstrate joy. I would be open to that critique.

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Of course, I would respond to, you know, I would need specific instances of that.

38:24

So I agree with you. My concern is not so much to change an impression, but to exalt the greatness of the

38:32

Holy Spirit in such a way that there is a genuine, dare I say it, exaltation, even an ecstatic response to the

38:42

Holy Spirit. Scott's book, his subtitle,

38:48

The God of Order, The Holy Spirit, The God of Order, like, it may give indication of what you're getting at there,

38:54

Chris, where, you know, the First Corinthians 12, yeah, where we'd want to be, where we recognize that our

39:04

Lord is a Lord of order. And so we do have a concern for things that demonstrate chaos.

39:14

And maybe if that's what you're alluding to. I can honestly say,

39:21

I was just going to say, I can honestly say without being guilty of flattery or hyperbole or kissing up to you that I've never gotten that impression from Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg.

39:37

You have a very exuberant way about you as a preacher and teacher, and the people there in the congregation are far from being lifeless and the frozen chosen.

39:51

So I just wanted to let you know that I was not asking that question because I sensed something like that while visiting you.

39:58

You are voicing a very common statement or a common observation that people, you said people in our theological camp are conviction.

40:09

But yeah. You have anything to add, Scott? I would respond similarly. Of course, yes, there probably are churches like that, people like that.

40:19

But I do think we need to be careful that we don't measure the

40:25

Spirit's work or even the piety of a people by external factors. Sometimes it's just personality.

40:33

Yes, joy is a fruit of the Spirit, but there's a difference between the affections of the soul.

40:40

So I'm using language that Jonathan Edwards used here. There's a difference between the affections of the soul and the manifest emotional expressiveness that sometimes might accompany that.

40:52

So, in other words, sometimes when we truly have spiritual joy, that can and may manifest itself in a kind of exuberance, something that people can see and identify.

41:05

That happens. There's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't have to. Someone can experience true joy of the

41:14

Holy Spirit without there being necessarily something outward and external that you can look at and say, oh, that person is joyful or that person's exuberant.

41:22

And Edwards addressed this head on in his book, The Religious Affections.

41:28

He has a whole list of things that he refers to as signs of nothing. And he's trying to give a careful balance between two opposing parties.

41:40

One were those who were looking at some of the emotional exuberance of the

41:45

Great Awakening and they were defining revival by the exuberance. And on the other hand, people were looking at the exuberance and they were saying that's a sign that God is not at work.

41:57

And Edwards came right in the middle and he said, you can't tell one way or the other whether the

42:02

Holy Spirit's at work through some sort of emotional exuberance. That's a sign of nothing. The only way you can really discern the active work of the

42:13

Holy Spirit is by long term sanctification in the life of a believer.

42:19

If you see somebody who, over the course of a period of time, is exhibiting the fruits of the

42:25

Spirit, is pursuing holiness, has a deep relationship with God through Christ, if you see those evidences, those are the evidences of the

42:33

Spirit. We do have to be careful of measuring the Spirit's activity and work by simply emotional, observable responses of an individual

42:45

Christian or a whole congregation. Well, we have a question from Manny in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

42:54

Manny says, could you please define and describe what the baptism of the

43:02

Holy Spirit is and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or the filling of the

43:08

Holy Spirit? Those seem to be concepts that add confusion to discussion between the non - charismatic and the charismatic.

43:24

Scott? So, baptism of the Holy Spirit, just briefly, the key text on this is 1

43:31

Corinthians 12, verse 13, for in one Spirit, we were all baptized into one body,

43:39

Jews or Greeks, labor free. So, every word in that phrase is key. First of all, it says, we were, past tense, all baptized.

43:50

So, what that indicates is, if Paul can say to the believers in Corinth, we were, past tense, all baptized, that means that that spirit of baptism is something that happens for all

44:04

Christians. It's not just a select few, which is what many charismatics would argue.

44:10

That baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurs for certain individuals. And also the fact that he uses the past tense indicates that it happened sometime in the past for all

44:21

Christians, which means it had to have happened at the moment of conversion. So, it's not like many charismatics and even

44:29

Methodist holiness advocates and some others, even Charles Finney.

44:35

It's not something subsequent to conversion and something only true of some believers.

44:41

Spirit baptism is something that happens at the moment of conversion. It is true for all believers.

44:48

And what we find here in the context of 1 Corinthians 12 is that spirit baptism is being immersed by the

44:56

Spirit or in the Spirit into one body, into the body of Christ. So, spirit baptism is the means by which we are united to Christ and made one with his body.

45:07

It is something, again, that occurs for all Christians. So, in that sense, it is what we would call experiential.

45:15

It is something that we experience, but it's not something that, as charismatics argue, necessarily will produce ecstatic feelings or certainly miraculous sign gifts like tongues and prophecy and these sorts of things.

45:31

No, it is something that occurs as a result of regeneration, as a result of justification at the moment of conversion, wherein a believer in the

45:40

Spirit is united to Christ. So, that's a really important, that's really the key verse to understand the nature of spirit baptism.

45:49

Do I have anything to add, Pastor Josh? Yeah, I think

45:57

Scott hit the nail on the head. So, that 1 Corinthians 12 is an experience that we all have as believers and should expect, that that is the work of the spirit baptizing.

46:09

Now, baptism is an analogy, it's a metaphor.

46:15

It's using this imagery of, obviously, determining immersion, bringing us in where there is this, then you have, now if our caller, the question may be a comment in reference to the book of Acts, where you have what appears to be this, well, not appears, there is a baptism of the

46:37

Holy Spirit that is promised by the Lord, and sometimes that use of baptism in that Acts 1 passage, and I think it's used again in Acts 11, and then used again there in 1

46:51

Corinthians 12, can provide a little bit of confusion, I understand, but the Acts passage is using that as a demonstration of the eschatological gift that was promised by the

47:03

Holy Spirit. There is a moment in time that they were empowered in this way in a baptism of the

47:11

Holy Spirit, but now, in Christ, we are positionally baptized into one body, and that is a permanent status, not a temporary empowerment, that is a permanent status of being baptized.

47:33

I have often been puzzled by my friends and brothers in Christ in the

47:41

Pentecostal denominations, who, if I'm not mistaken, all of the official

47:47

Pentecostal denominations, unlike charismatic churches where there is much more diversity, but in churches like the

47:56

Assemblies of God, Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee, and others, there is a teaching that speaking in tongues is the sign of the baptism of the

48:10

Holy Spirit. And I've said this to my friends in those movements, in those denominations, how does that even make sense?

48:19

How could that be the sign when it is so easily faked, especially when you have, in my opinion, and I'm sure yours, when you have a wrong definition of what speaking in tongues is, an unbiblical definition, where they are just babbling incoherent syllables and sounds where you don't,

48:45

I mean, sometimes you have people who I can't judge their hearts and say,

48:50

I know for a fact that they're intentionally faking interpretations, but sometimes you don't have any interpretation at all.

49:00

So how can that possibly be the sign, you know, a capital T -H -E sign?

49:06

Do you have anything that you say to folks about that, Dr. Arana?

49:13

Yeah. Well, I mean, again, like Pastor Josh mentioned, there is a biblical reason they say that, although I agree they completely are misdefining things, but that is because in the book of Acts, we do find baptism of the

49:26

Holy Spirit four times, I believe, and in three of those four cases, you do see baptism of the

49:34

Spirit accompanied by the gift of tongues. And the reason for that is that God wanted to demonstrate what was happening, right?

49:44

This was something new. Baptism of the Spirit, which first occurs on the day of Pentecost. And then

49:49

Ferguson, in his book on the Holy Spirit, describes it like when you drop a rock in a pond, there's a big splash and then there are ripples.

49:59

And so you see that same thing happening where you have Pentecost and then you kind of have ripples of Pentecost where God is demonstrating that this baptism of the

50:08

Spirit is not just for Jews, but it is for anyone who comes in the name of Christ, and so you see it first happening in Jerusalem and then

50:16

Judea and then Samaria and then the uttermost parts of the earth. And each of those cases,

50:22

God does give the gift of tongues as a sign that accompanies baptism in order to demonstrate that this is a work of the

50:30

Holy Spirit, and in particular, the gift of tongues is meant to demonstrate that God is now extending the, he's extending entrance into his body and union with his son to not just one ethnicity, but to all people's nations and languages.

50:49

And that's why people begin to speak in languages that they never before had learned.

50:55

In Acts chapter two, it is crystal clear that tongues is not some sort of gibberish or angelic speech, but it is actually known languages, because right there in the text in Acts chapter two,

51:08

Luke uses the term for tongue, which is just the word that means the organ in the mouth, and he uses it interchangeably with the

51:15

Greek word dialecto, which means languages, and so he's clearly referring to known languages. So in that sense, it was a sign of baptism, but the gift was very specific.

51:26

Like, you know, here is somebody from Egypt and there's a Jew speaking in my language, even though that person never learned

51:33

Egyptian, that is a sign that now demonstrates that salvation is available, union with Christ, union with the body of Christ is extended to anyone who believes,

51:45

Jew, Gentile alike. Once that sign had been sufficiently communicated, that gift passed away, and then now, you know, all of the charismatic tongues, they have to redefine it as some sort of angelic speech or gibberish, and it's not actually the biblical sign itself.

52:03

And do you agree with some—go ahead, do you want to say something, Josh? Well, just a very quick and specific response to the person who says that tongues is the premier demonstration, or even some say you must speak in tongues in order to demonstrate that you've been baptized by the

52:22

Spirit or in the Spirit. I mean, First Corinthians 12, Paul makes it clear that not everybody speaks in tongues.

52:29

So that's the end of First Corinthians 12. Are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers?

52:35

Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues?

52:40

Do all interpret? I mean, it's a simple textual response of the Spirit, even in the apostolic times, was distributing gifts as needed within the local church.

52:52

And yet all were baptized. So not all speak in tongues, but all were baptized. They can't be necessarily connected.

53:00

And amazingly, the Oneness Pentecostals, unlike most other

53:05

Pentecostals and Charismatics, believe that speaking in tongues is an essential sign of salvation.

53:14

You are not even viewed as regenerate if you don't speak in tongues, according to the

53:20

Oneness cult, that even many, not all, sadly, but many

53:25

Pentecostals, if not most, reject them as being a cult. But we have to go to our midway break right now.

53:32

And if you'd like to join those that have submitted questions and ask a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

53:42

chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

53:48

Please don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. Hi, this is

53:53

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

54:01

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

54:13

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances,

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I'm pleased to do so. And we'd like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

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Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Hello, my name is

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Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

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Reform Rookie dot com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Eugenio, and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:00:03

This is

01:00:11

Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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For many things that the

01:03:15

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On July 18th, President Donald Trump signed the Genius Act into law.

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01:06:13

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing Psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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That's t -r -b -c -carlisle dot org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

01:07:11

Welcome back. Before I return to my conversation on the work of the

01:07:17

Holy Spirit, I just have some important reminders to you.

01:07:23

Folks, if you really love Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I'm urging you to please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

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So please, if you are interested in advertising, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put advertising in the subject line.

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But keep in mind, folks, Iron Trip and Zion Radio has just lost two of our largest advertisers.

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And as you know, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who have been so faithful and loyal to us since we relaunched the show here in Pennsylvania in 2015, well, unfortunately, this

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Friday, they are permanently closing their doors, and so we have lost the income from their sponsorship.

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And as I said, we've lost another very large advertiser as well. So please, if you know of anybody that would like to advertise with us, send me an email and let me know of who

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And if you haven't given for quite some time, you might want to consider giving again today.

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click support, and then click to donate now. With all that said, as much as we urgently needed your financial help,

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I never want anybody listening to give less money to their own local church than you already regularly give your own local church, where you're a member on the

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But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, if you love the show, please help us out with some of that money.

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Go to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful,

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Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, well,

01:10:47

I have helped people in my audience all over the world find churches.

01:10:52

Sometimes I have found biblically faithful churches within minutes from where they live in all parts of the planet

01:10:59

Earth, and that may be you too. So wherever you live in the world, spanning the globe, send us an email if you are without a biblically faithful church home.

01:11:11

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line.

01:11:17

That's also the email address to send in a question to Pastor Josh Miller and Dr.

01:11:23

Scott Anuel, and we are discussing the presence and the power of the

01:11:28

Holy Spirit, which is also the theme of the upcoming conference featuring keynote speaker

01:11:34

Dr. Scott Anuel at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, on October 25th and 26th, which is a

01:11:43

Saturday and Sunday. So that's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:11:51

We have Jerusha in Spanish Fork, Utah, and Jerusha says, in Matthew 3 .11,

01:12:02

we read, I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals

01:12:11

I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

01:12:18

And then in Luke 3 .16, we read, I baptize you with water, but he comes with fire.

01:12:25

He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. What is this fire being mentioned in both of these verses?

01:12:33

And Dr. Anuel, we'll start with you. Yeah, so I mentioned earlier 1

01:12:40

Corinthians 12 has sort of the key text for baptism, for spirit baptism.

01:12:47

These two texts, these gospel texts, identify that Christ is actually the one doing the baptizing.

01:12:54

It's, you know, like Pastor Josh mentioned, this is metaphor, right? This is an explanation of a theological reality, union with Christ, immersion into his body, and these texts describe that.

01:13:10

And, you know, we see on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, that one of the signs that God gives in order to indicate that his spirit is coming in a unique way are the tongues of fire that appear over the heads of the apostles who then speak in tongues.

01:13:28

And there's a sound also of rushing wind. All three of those signs, the rushing wind, the sign of fire, and the speaking in tongues are all indicators that this is a work of God and that this is the spirit of God who's being sent in a unique way, just as promised.

01:13:45

So that's how I would take it, that the idea of fire is simply connected to the presence of God, the promise of God, and the sending of the

01:13:56

Holy Spirit, which is then fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. As we've mentioned earlier, there's kind of a ripple effect.

01:14:04

There's further demonstrations of that. But as we see by the time of 1

01:14:09

Corinthians 12, Paul is articulating that this is something that we all, that happens to all

01:14:16

Christians at the moment of their conversion. And so we today in the 21st century should not be expecting to be baptized with fire?

01:14:29

Well, not in a sort of a visible sense like in the Day of Pentecost, but yes, in the sense that fire is representative of the spirit of God, of the presence of God.

01:14:39

You think about the examples in the Old Testament of when God sends sort of a visible representation of his acceptance of the sacrifices.

01:14:50

He sends fire from heaven. Think about Elijah and the prophets of Baal and Mount Carmel. So fire is regularly symbolically representative of the powerful act of God.

01:15:02

And so, no, we're not going to see tongues of fire, we're not going to literally see fire, but the

01:15:08

Spirit regenerating our hearts and uniting us to Christ, baptizing us into the body of Christ is the fulfillment of what

01:15:18

John the Baptist in these texts is predicting. So I'm assuming you then rule out an explanation

01:15:26

I have heard. The only place I've heard this, there may be many others who interpret it this way, but I knew that some

01:15:35

I've met in the Church of Christ, who are typically very cessationist, they interpret this to be passages describing both heaven and hell, fire being the warning of hell, and I'm assuming you rule that out.

01:15:57

It could be. I wouldn't take it that way. I would take the fire represents the purifying, sanctifying activity of the

01:16:09

Spirit. That's how I would take it. So baptism being the initial moment of conversion, union with Christ, immersion to the body of Christ, and then fire being representative of the purifying, sanctifying work of the

01:16:28

Spirit. But I suppose there could be other interpretations that are even orthodox or even within the cessationist camp.

01:16:39

I just don't take it that way. I take it as a purifying, sanctifying sort of symbol of that particular work of the

01:16:46

Spirit in a believer's life. Anything to add, Josh? I really appreciate the way

01:16:54

Scott handled that question, because what you have him doing right here, he's teaching you hermeneutics.

01:17:01

So this is an analogy of Scripture. So that is, again, metaphor, imagery.

01:17:07

If you're going to develop your theology off of one line in Matthew 3 about fire and the baptism of the

01:17:17

Spirit, that's a very dangerous practice to do. So his little line there that Scott used is important.

01:17:25

There could be an orthodox view that understands both this use of fire in Scripture as the presence of the

01:17:34

Lord in a sanctifying way, in a purifying way. Certainly the reference to fire on the day of Pentecost could fulfill this.

01:17:43

So it fills out this theological idea. But also fire is used of judgment. So those who would go to this and say, and we know that the

01:17:51

Father has given all authority into the hand of the Son to exercise judgment over all of humanity.

01:17:59

So yeah, the fire, and even in Matthew 3, the verse right after Matthew 3, what is it?

01:18:05

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

01:18:16

So in the immediate context, there is a reference to fire being used as judgment. So I think those are orthodox interpretations of that passage, because elsewhere in Scripture, fire is used in this way and used of the work of the

01:18:34

Lord. So it's a great question, and I really appreciate the way

01:18:41

Scott answered that in recognizing, yeah, you could see this as judgment, certainly even from the text, the immediate text.

01:18:50

But his understanding would be this is a purifying fire. Yeah, and purity and judgment go together, right?

01:18:58

Whether we're talking kind of on a macro level that God's judgment fire is purifying, like verse 12 says, or if we're talking about an individual,

01:19:08

God is burning up our sinful habits, right? And it's not a condemnation sort of judgment for the

01:19:18

Christian, because we are justified, and yet it is a burning up for the sake of purity for the believer.

01:19:26

So I'm glad you brought up hermeneutics here, Josh, because the other pitfall a lot of people fall into, and you sort of alluded to this, is deriving doctrine from narrative texts that aren't really, they're not intended to teach sort of doctrine in a holistic way.

01:19:51

The book of Acts is the prime example of this, where you have things happening, particularly the gospels and Acts, this is a transitional period.

01:20:00

We're transitioning from the old covenant to the new covenant. There's a lot of things going on. It's really the epistles that we need to look to that give us a more systematic explanation of doctrine, and then we interpret what's happening during the transitional periods more in light of the epistles, where the apostles are very clearly articulating certain doctrines for us regarding what the

01:20:28

Holy Spirit is doing. Great. We have either Stephan or Stephen, with a

01:20:34

Ph., in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I would like you to interpret the text in Matthew 12, 31 and 32.

01:20:46

Therefore, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the

01:20:54

Spirit will not be forgiven, and whosoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whosoever speaks against the

01:21:03

Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

01:21:10

I am baffled about these texts because I've heard different answers from learned brethren in Christ of them.

01:21:20

If you want, Scott, to start. Yeah. I mean, this is another text where there are,

01:21:27

I think, a couple different possible Orthodox positions. Some people would define either the unforgivable sin or blasphemy against the

01:21:38

Spirit to be actually the act of unbelief. So, in other words, by not repenting and not believing, that is the damnable sin, of course, from which someone will be judged accordingly because you've not repented of your sins and trusted in Christ.

01:21:57

The other interpretation, and this is the one I lean toward in this context, is that during the life of Christ, sometimes it appears that Christ is actually exerting his own divine prerogative in miraculous activity, but often he actually attributes miraculous activity to the

01:22:25

Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Messiah. He is the Anointed One. And one of the signs of the

01:22:33

Anointed One is that the Spirit comes upon him, which happens at his baptism, the theocratic anointing sometimes it's referred to.

01:22:43

And so the miracles that he performs sometimes are actually the Spirit working through him.

01:22:49

Now, what appears to be happening here in Matthew is that the

01:22:55

Pharisees, those who are contrary to Jesus, are claiming that he is working by Beelzebub.

01:23:05

In other words, they're saying he's doing these miraculous works by Satan and by demons, by Beelzebub. So they're attributing a work that is rightly attributed to the

01:23:14

Holy Spirit, and instead they're attributing it to Beelzebub.

01:23:19

So the blasphemy against the Spirit would be exactly that, when a person attributes a work of the

01:23:27

Spirit to a work of demons. And some would say it's specifically when they attribute a work accomplished by Christ through the

01:23:35

Spirit to Beelzebub. So with that view, they would say this blasphemy against the

01:23:42

Spirit could only be committed during the ministry of Christ. Nobody today can commit that if you take that position.

01:23:49

You might broaden it out and say, anybody who says that work of the Spirit is actually a work of a demon, well, that's a blasphemy against the

01:23:56

Spirit and a damnable heresy. But it's important to state at this point, a Christian cannot and never will commit blasphemy against the

01:24:06

Holy Spirit. Some people might be afraid, well, what if I commit this sin and I become damned?

01:24:11

Well, if you're a Christian, you don't have to worry about it. You're not going to commit this sin because you have been regenerated by the

01:24:17

Spirit of God, and certainly you're not going to attribute a work of the Spirit of God to Beelzebub. So, again, some people get overly worried about it, and I would say, don't worry, trust in Christ, attribute the work of the

01:24:30

Spirit to him, and you'll be fine. There's no such thing as a Christian who's going to accidentally commit the unpardonable sin or the blasphemy against the

01:24:37

Spirit. Yes, and of course, only we who believe in either eternal security or perseverance and preservation of the saints can make that claim that you just did, because those who believe you can lose your salvation, they sometimes are guilty of fear -mongering, especially if they are charismatic and Pentecostal.

01:25:00

Well, that to them is a warning for people like us, especially cessationists, to never dare say, oh, that is a fake healing service going on.

01:25:12

Well, that person speaking in tongues is faking it. I have heard people from the

01:25:20

Pentecostal or non -cessationist backgrounds actually say that that is guilt of the blasphemy of the

01:25:28

Holy Spirit. Yeah, well, then, I would respond by saying, let's evaluate those activities by the

01:25:36

Word of God. That's what we're doing. We're not just haphazardly attributing certain acts and saying that they're fake.

01:25:44

We're actually measuring the act. Let's look at the so -called tongues today.

01:25:49

Let's compare it against the standard of Scripture. When we do that, we determine that modern tongues is not what

01:25:55

Scripture talks about. Look at healing. Look at other miracles, revelations, and these sorts of things.

01:26:04

When you compare them to Scripture and to the actual works of the Holy Spirit, you come up lacking.

01:26:10

So, yeah, it would be a weighty thing to attribute something that the Holy Spirit is actually doing and saying that it's fake, but we don't do it lightly.

01:26:19

We do it by actually going to the sufficient Word that the Spirit of God, by the way, inspired and through which the

01:26:26

Spirit of God works. We go to the sufficient Word. We compare the Word to these modern phenomena, and then we determine that they are not the same thing.

01:26:37

And, Pastor Josh, do you have anything to add? Amen! Dr. Aniels just set it up on a tee for me here, and I get to whack away.

01:26:50

So, no, good job. In reference to the Matthew 12 text, what

01:26:55

Dr. Aniels said there is absolutely right in the context. They directly attribute the work of the

01:27:00

Spirit to demonic activity, and Jesus confronts that. I think he repeats that phrase in his ministry again, or that teaching regarding blasphemy of the

01:27:14

Holy Spirit. In Luke chapter 12, in a little different context, he actually does it to strengthen his apostles.

01:27:24

When you go to preach, the Spirit will bring to your remembrance the things that you need to say, and when people reject you, they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting the

01:27:33

Holy Spirit. And so, that phrase is used in both of those contexts, where there is no further testimony, there is no greater testimony than that of the

01:27:51

Holy Spirit. And so, with that, you can go to John 16, when the Spirit comes, he will convict the world of sin, of righteousness, of judgment.

01:27:59

So, this is an ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit, and this is the day of salvation. And if you don't respond to the

01:28:05

Spirit's testimony, that is a blasphemy against the ministry of the Holy Spirit. So, in the context of Matthew 12,

01:28:13

I think it's clear what Dr. Aniels was saying. Yes, that is connected to blaspheming the ministry of the

01:28:19

Spirit in the life of Christ. But Christ acknowledged his humble appearance, like, you can blaspheme the

01:28:29

Son of Man, don't blaspheme the power by which the Son of Man comes. But you, and then with his apostles, take heart.

01:28:40

They're not rejecting you, they're rejecting the Holy Spirit, and there will be a righteous judgment poured out upon them for that.

01:28:50

Okay, we've got Rory in Middlesex, Pennsylvania, and Rory asks,

01:28:59

I have heard that there is a teaching from the late Dr.

01:29:04

Martin Lloyd -Jones involving the Holy Spirit that on the one hand has some

01:29:10

Reformed Christians apprehensive, and on the other has some charismatic

01:29:15

Christians leap with joy because they claim him as one of their own.

01:29:20

It has something to do with a second blessing, and I don't quite understand it. Can either of you respond to that?

01:29:27

I don't know if you want to start this time, Josh, or I don't know how much either of you know about Martin Lloyd -Jones, but…

01:29:35

Well, I don't want to claim to be an authority on Martin Lloyd -Jones' doctrine or theology of revival, but I know what the question is related to, yeah.

01:29:48

So, Martin Lloyd -Jones, maybe I'll use the word comfortable, would be more comfortable with a temporary filling of the

01:29:57

Holy Spirit that would empower somebody for a specific work of ministry.

01:30:05

I'm kind of shooting from the hip here with an explanation of that. I don't want to flatten out the tension that some cessationists have with that, because I think some of it is semantics,

01:30:19

I think some of it we would recognize, even in our talk of revival before, that there can be a concentrated movement of the

01:30:30

Spirit in a way where there is a response to the call of the gospel in a large way.

01:30:42

For instance, the Day of Pentecost, as far as the response to the gospel, doesn't happen every

01:30:47

Sunday. But in some instances, we mentioned the

01:30:53

Great Awakening or the Welsh Revival, revivals through history, where it was proven to be a work of the

01:31:02

Spirit and outpouring. But yeah, in answer to the question, I think that's what the caller is getting to, that Martin Lloyd -Jones would have been more comfortable talking about and even using phrases like baptism of the

01:31:19

Spirit in a way that it was a temporary empowerment for a momentary work.

01:31:24

How about you, Dr. Reiningham? Yeah, I mean,

01:31:30

I would agree. Nobody wants to disagree with Martin Lloyd -Jones or anybody of great theological status.

01:31:42

I would have some concerns with how he articulates things. Charismatics claim

01:31:50

Spurgeon, Charismatics claim Calvin sometimes, ironically enough, and sometimes it's difficult to discern exactly what they're talking about, and sometimes they can be imprecise in their language.

01:32:03

I think this ought to drive us, and this is true with any doctrine and kind of the development of doctrine over time, it ought to drive us to speak how the

01:32:13

Bible speaks. Let's speak with biblical precision. If we speak with biblical precision, that helps us to avoid confusing people or category errors, or potentially, even though we might not intend to, leading people into theological error.

01:32:30

I think perhaps he was somewhat theologically imprecise or maybe just believed some things that I would disagree with, and that's fine.

01:32:40

We can still get along, right? We can still appreciate a lot of what they've written.

01:32:46

You know, one of the questions earlier, along with baptism, was asking about the issue of spirit filling.

01:32:54

This is one of the topics I'm going to be addressing at the conference, and it's one that we have to be careful of.

01:32:59

It ties right into the issue of hermeneutics we were talking about earlier, because there's a lot of references to filling in the book of Acts, which do refer to,

01:33:11

I believe, a special empowerment of the Spirit upon an apostle or someone close to an apostle during those transitional foundational years of the church.

01:33:24

And in each case, Luke uses the Greek word pemplemi, which is translated filling, and I think specifically refers to that kind of miraculous empowerment of the

01:33:36

Spirit. But for instance, when we get to Ephesians chapter 5, where Paul writes, be filled with or by the

01:33:45

Spirit, he doesn't use the same Greek word that he uses in the book of Acts to talk about special empowerment.

01:33:51

In Ephesians chapter 5, he uses the word plerao, which is different, and it's the only occurrence of that word, and it's the only time that's commanded, right?

01:34:00

So the instances of special empowerment in the book of Acts are never commanded. It's, again, what

01:34:06

God in his sovereignty, God's Spirit does during those transitional foundational years of the church to empower certain individuals to perform miracles or to speak boldly or to do these sorts of important foundational acts.

01:34:21

But when we're talking about Spirit filling, which is commanded for all of us as believers, such as Ephesians chapter 5, this is a command that has more to do with allowing the

01:34:32

Spirit to control us through his word or allowing the Spirit to fill us more and more with the word of Christ.

01:34:39

So that's different than the filling in the book of Acts, which is very much analogous, a very similar kind of activity of the

01:34:50

Spirit that he would do in the Old Testament for prophets, for example, who could perform miracles. That's a special filling.

01:34:57

So maybe that's what Lloyd -Jones was using there, and I would just push back and try to, again, speak with biblical clarity, biblical precision, allow the epistles to have more weight in terms of how we determine our doctrine for the church age, rather than narratives that are just describing what is happening during the transitional years of the early church.

01:35:18

And just out of curiosity, once again, this might involve more in -depth knowledge of Martin Lloyd -Jones's ministry and legacy than one might typically have, but do you have any answer as to why the church that he pastored—Westminster

01:35:38

Chapel, I believe it was—was taken over, basically, by Charismatics after his death?

01:35:43

I don't know how long that took to occur, but do you have any clue of what maybe may have led to that?

01:35:52

I don't. Yeah, I don't. I'm not a Lloyd -Jones expert or know necessarily the history of that specifically, no.

01:36:01

Okay. But I will say, I would stop short to say

01:36:06

I've been filled with the Holy Spirit. I don't want to speak from just experience as authority, but there have definitely, as I am preaching

01:36:18

God's Word, where there are moments of clarity, there are moments of, dare

01:36:26

I say, unction, where even recently,

01:36:31

I mentioned this ministry in West Africa, I was teaching Romans, and going through Romans, there was moments of clarity where I actually connected some theological statements in a way that I had not in preparation, but did in the moment and afterwards could truly attribute that to a spiritual insight.

01:36:56

It certainly came out of study and reliance on the Spirit and those things, but I believe that the

01:37:01

Lord, through His Spirit, does empower those who step out in faith and minister the gospel.

01:37:11

Yeah, so that's where, you know, any good gift, any good thing that we do is a work of God, right?

01:37:17

We have to give Him the credit for anything, and we all have those experiences where we are strengthened by the

01:37:25

Spirit, we are helped by the Spirit, we're helped by God, we're gifted by God in certain moments of weakness, perhaps.

01:37:34

Then again, this is where I think we just have to use biblical precision, biblical language, lest we confuse people.

01:37:39

Abraham Kuyper has a good discussion of this, where he says, if we don't use biblical language with precision, we're going to end up confusing people, and then our experience becomes the determiner of doctrine, and we never want that to be the case.

01:37:54

So, we might experience something, okay, great, and we attribute it to God. Anything good that happens to me or through me is from God, but then when

01:38:04

I describe it, let's go to Scripture and let's use biblical language that is applicable to this experience to describe what

01:38:14

God is doing. I think that's really, really important. Okay, we have

01:38:19

Clay in either Laval or Laval, I don't know how to pronounce that city in Canada, L -A -V -A -L.

01:38:29

Clay says, what exactly is meant by grieving the Holy Spirit, as we read in Ephesians 430, and do not grieve the

01:38:38

Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed for the day of redemption?

01:38:44

Is that grieving of the Holy Spirit revealed to us when we have a troubled conscience, or how else is that understood by us and known by us?

01:38:59

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's not known by us in some sort of, like, we don't feel something when we grieve the Spirit, like something, a tingle or anything like that.

01:39:07

And, of course, that too is an anthropomorphism. The Holy Spirit does not have a body, so he doesn't have sort of physical feelings like we do.

01:39:16

But we don't want to minimize what it's saying here. Can we grieve the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. I think in this context, talking about our speech, any unwholesome, careless, unbecoming speech grieves the

01:39:31

Spirit because it is in contradiction with his fruit and his sanctifying work in our lives.

01:39:38

So that's what I would say it's referring to. And Josh? Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

01:39:46

Maybe you have that contrast, no pun intended, but fleshed out even more in Galatians chapter 5, when it talks about the works of the flesh versus the work of the ministry of the

01:40:04

Spirit in the soul of a man. So… Yes, and Clay mentioned the conscience.

01:40:13

If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, doesn't a biblically -informed, born -again believer, because of his relationship with Christ, have a troubled conscience when they are in the midst of sin because of the

01:40:33

Holy Spirit's presence in us? Yeah, I mean, that's the convicting work of the

01:40:40

Spirit, absolutely, right? The Spirit of Christ is within us. Whenever we sin and contradict the law of God, there's going to be a convicting work of the

01:40:49

Spirit. If that convicting work of the Spirit is not there, then it could be that you're not actually indwelled by the Spirit of God.

01:40:55

I would say that's different than grieving, if that's the question. When the Spirit is grieved, do we feel something?

01:41:01

Well, we're talking about two different things, but they probably happen simultaneously, right? The Spirit is grieved, and therefore he convicts us of that sin such that we repent and turn back to Christ.

01:41:15

Okay, Lori in Seattle, Washington, wants to know, does the

01:41:21

Holy Spirit ever completely depart or depart in a certain measure from a truly born -again person when they are in the midst of committing sin?

01:41:36

And we'll start with you, Scott. Absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. A believer is indwelled by the

01:41:43

Spirit always. Now, the degree to which we are controlled by him through the Word, that's what

01:41:49

Ephesians 5 is talking about. Someone described it kind of as a dimmer switch. We can be more or less controlled by the

01:41:56

Spirit, but the Spirit never leaves us. And I think sometimes what confuses people is pointing to Saul, for example, the

01:42:04

Spirit leaves him, or even David's prayer of confession in Psalm 51, take not your

01:42:10

Holy Spirit from me. And we have to be clear, both of those are talking about the same thing. They are not talking about the permanent, salvific indwelling of the

01:42:19

Spirit. They're talking about that temporary empowerment that was given to anointed servants of God, like the kings.

01:42:28

So Saul, I believe, was an unregenerate man who was temporarily empowered by the

01:42:34

Spirit of God because he was king. But when he proved his unregenerate state and God rejected him as king, he removed his

01:42:42

Spirit. That's exactly what David, who I believe was the regenerate man, was praying in Psalm 51.

01:42:49

He wasn't praying, Lord, don't let me lose my salvation. That's impossible. David was a regenerate man, that's never going to change.

01:42:58

But he was fearful that God would remove his special theocratic blessing from him as king.

01:43:06

So we don't want to allow, again, those narrative situations that were unique for these anointed kings of Israel to influence our doctrine of the indwelling of the

01:43:15

Holy Spirit for believers. Once the Spirit regenerates your heart and indwells you, He will never leave you or forsake you despite your sin.

01:43:24

And that's the wonderful thing about it. If the Spirit left us in the midst of our sin, we would be hopeless. But the

01:43:30

Spirit remains with us in the midst of our sin, continuing to convict us so that we will come back to repentance once again and full trust and sanctification in Jesus Christ.

01:43:44

Praise the Lord. Yeah, I mean, that's Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 6. The Spirit is there.

01:43:49

You are a temple of the Holy Spirit. Do not give yourself over to sexual immorality. Do you not know that the

01:43:57

Spirit is within you? You have from God. Well, we have to go to our final break.

01:44:03

And once again, if you'd like to join us, I would submit your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:44:10

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

01:44:16

We're going to be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Ottawa.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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01:51:57

And we have Rebecca in Middlesex, Pennsylvania.

01:52:04

And Rebecca asks, have you seen and heard other churches who seem to have an unbiblical concept of who the

01:52:15

Holy Spirit is? They'll refer to the Holy Spirit as an it or a what, and very often seem to describe the

01:52:24

Holy Spirit as a substance rather than a person of the Godhead. Dr.

01:52:30

Scott Daniel? Yeah, I know that's certainly out there.

01:52:35

I don't know that I've experienced it personally, but it's certainly out there. I think it's common to, well, certainly true with certain heretical groups, like one that's

01:52:47

Pentecostals, but it's common even just for good, well -meaning people to misspeak and to use the neuter pronouns to refer to the

01:52:58

Holy Spirit. And again, let's speak how the Bible speaks. The Bible uses personal masculine pronouns to refer to the

01:53:06

Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a him, is a he. He's a person. He's not a force.

01:53:12

He's not an it. He is a person. He is a person of the Godhead. The Bible teaches one

01:53:17

God in three persons, and he is just as much a person as the

01:53:23

Father and as the Son. So, yes, it's out there. Sometimes it's intentional and it's connected to heresy.

01:53:29

Sometimes it's just unintentional and might just be misspeak by uninformed, well -meaning

01:53:35

Christians. This is where we need to immerse ourselves in the scripture. Let's seek to understand what the

01:53:42

Bible says about the Spirit, and then let's speak about him as the Bible speaks. Pastor Josh Miller?

01:53:50

Just affirm what my brother has said there, yeah. In scripture, we see certainly in Acts chapter 5, where the lying to the

01:53:58

Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God. We baptize in the name singular

01:54:06

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, again, reference to the Trinity. But in understanding the

01:54:13

Holy Spirit as a person, the Holy Spirit is to be known and related to and fellowshiped with.

01:54:27

So those are personal aspects of the Holy Spirit that we enjoy.

01:54:34

Well, we have time for one more question from Burt. In Brightwaters, Long Island, in Luke 3 .22,

01:54:44

we read, and the Holy Spirit descended on him, meaning Jesus, in a bodily form like a dove.

01:54:51

This, of course, happened while he was being baptized by John the Baptist.

01:54:57

Did this mean that people who were viewing this actually think a dove had landed on Jesus?

01:55:07

Dr. Scott Daniel? I think the simple answer to that would be, we don't know for sure.

01:55:14

It seems that way. It seems like they saw something visible and bodily that they may have either interpreted to be a dove or at least saw to look like a dove.

01:55:26

And of course, this was just the Spirit of God temporarily taking on a physical form, similar to how the

01:55:33

Son of God takes on a physical form in the Old Testament prior to his own incarnation.

01:55:39

So, God is a Spirit and does not have a body like man, of course, until the Son of God, the second person of the

01:55:45

Trinity, takes on human flesh. But nevertheless, it does appear that God can take on some visible forms sometimes, and the

01:55:53

Spirit in this baptism of the Son does descend in something that appeared to be like a dove.

01:56:03

Any comments to this, Josh? Nope. Okay, Pastor Josh, I'd like you to give a few words of encouragement for our listeners to attend your conference, whet their appetites, and say anything that needs to be said about how they register for this.

01:56:25

Yeah, so again, that website gracebfc .com slash conference will get you to our registration page.

01:56:33

It'll also lay out the schedule of the conference. We have some special features. Banner of Truth publishers will be well represented with multiple tables of books on this very topic, and from books that are more accessible to some deep theological tomes on this topic.

01:56:56

And then we will have refreshments provided throughout the day. The whole thing is free of charge.

01:57:01

Just common fellowship with like -minded believers studying a topic, but Lord willing, we'll be strengthening our unity in Christ by understanding the presence and the power of the

01:57:14

Holy Spirit. I think just the very questions from your listeners could whet the appetite of those who may have an interest in this.

01:57:21

Those questions will be touched on, dealt with. Specifically, we're going to be launching from Romans chapter 8, kind of the chapter of the

01:57:29

Spirit. In Romans chapter 8, we're going to be moving through that somewhat thematically, but using the text to launch into various ministries and aspects of the

01:57:39

Holy Spirit. So that's going to be the presence of the Spirit on Saturday, dealing with the indwelling presence of the

01:57:47

Spirit, the evident presence of the Spirit. How do we know the Spirit is present? And then a keynote address by our brother

01:57:55

Dr. Scott Ania will be on the ministering presence of the Holy Spirit, the ongoing ministry within our life.

01:58:03

And then on Sunday, now this obviously assumes that we want you to worship with your body of believers that you are connected with.

01:58:12

But if you're traveling and want to fellowship with us from Saturday into Sunday, you are more than welcome. During our

01:58:18

Sunday school hour at 9 .15, we will be looking into the Great Awakening, kind of just a historical reflection on a movement of the

01:58:28

Holy Spirit, the First Great Awakening. And then our morning worship, the sermon will come from Dr.

01:58:35

Scott Ania on the power of the Holy Spirit. And then our evening worship at 6 p .m.

01:58:42

will be, it's titled Under the Influence, filled with the Holy Spirit. So, it's a rundown and yeah, all are invited.

01:58:51

And no registration is necessary. It's just free and walk in. Well, we are asking people to register, but if you decide that you wake up Saturday morning, you said you want to come, feel free to come.

01:59:02

But again, there is a registration page, gracebfc .com slash conference. Just so you can get an idea of a headcount.

01:59:10

Yeah, you have an idea, yep. Okay, and Scott Ania will please give our listeners all of your contact information.

01:59:19

Yeah, g3men .org is the website of the G3 Ministries and you can find my blog there and all of our content, books we've published,

01:59:31

G3 Plus streaming platform. And then of course, our upcoming conference on the theme of Christian unity,

01:59:37

February 12 through 14, g3men .org forward slash unity. Thank you so much, brethren.

01:59:44

You did a superb job as I knew you would. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

01:59:50

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.