Lovingly Telling Mormons the Truth

Apologia Utah

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00:01

How's it going? I'm fine, and you? Good. I'm Craig. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Michael. Is this something of the truth, or is it against the truth?

00:14

So, what it is, is it's looking at Bible verses and Book of Mormon verses.

00:22

We're Christians. We love the Mormon people. What we believe is that the

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Book of Mormon teaches things that are different from the Bible. And because it's different, it's a message that doesn't save people.

00:42

It actually gives people a false sense of hope.

00:48

A false? It gives them a... how should I say this? The Mormon believes they know

00:57

God, but the God of Mormonism is different than the God of the Bible.

01:03

Oh. Okay. So, in here, what it talks about is grace.

01:13

Do you know what grace is? Grace, yeah. That's here. So, in Mormonism, it's taught right here on the front.

01:20

It says that if you deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and that is the bad things we do, like sin, lying, stealing, things like that.

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It says if you deny yourselves of all your sin, then you get the grace. The problem is, nobody can do that, and the

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Bible doesn't teach that. So, when we ask the question, are you saved by grace, according to the

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Book of Mormon, nobody can live that way. Have you lived a perfect life where you deny yourself of all ungodliness or do no sin?

02:01

Do no wrong? If I know what's wrong? Yeah, ungodliness.

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So, that's sin or wrong. Yeah, go ahead.

02:18

You guys are born again? Yes, sir.

02:24

Okay, we're here for the same reason. So, glad to be here. I'm shocked. Yeah. Yes. Okay.

02:30

Hi. What's your name? Mark. Crossway Church in Bristol, Wisconsin.

02:37

Oh. So, we're over by Kenosha. We drove from Wisconsin. So, we drove from Wisconsin. We are.

02:43

We did. Uh -huh. Yeah. I know. What did he say?

02:51

Okay. So, what we say here is that nobody can do that.

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Nobody can not do bad for all their life. Yeah. He said, wicked people.

03:05

Yeah. Cannot be perfectionists. Yeah, we're not perfect.

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They want to be perfectionists. Yeah, we can't be perfect.

03:16

That's right. We would agree. But what this says here. So, it has two words.

03:21

If. So. The condition. Yes. So, you have to do this in order to get the grace.

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So, if you're not perfect, then you don't get the grace. So, if you don't get the grace, you're not saved.

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So, that's why we're out here. Because Mormons believe that they're saved by grace.

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But according to the Book of Mormon, just what it says right here. Nobody can actually be saved because nobody's perfect.

03:53

Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. I understand. Okay. Can I show you a video?

03:59

Uh, sure. What's the video? Can I send you for a messenger? Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, we'll exchange numbers.

04:05

I think YouTube is better.

04:13

Oh, YouTube is better? Yeah. I can send you. Yeah, if you want to send something to me.

04:19

Sure. Okay. Okay. What's the number?

04:25

Oh. You. Yes, let me.

04:40

Your birthday in white church? Sorry? You are a member of other church?

04:45

Yeah. Yeah, so we're a member of Apologia. Uh, do you know where Riverton is?

04:55

So about 104th South and Salt Lake. Okay, Salt Lake.

05:01

Yeah, so we're sort of by Sandy, but we're in Riverton. Yeah. So it's by 106th. I was confused.

05:07

I said, this church is in Provo, you know? Yeah, yeah. Provo. Yeah. The most part of the people are members.

05:13

Uh -huh. But in Salt Lake, I know that many people are not. Yeah. And, you know, in the general conference, some people stand and said,

05:26

I no agree, and you. Oh, yeah. You know? Yes, I've seen those people. Yeah, that's not us.

05:33

Okay. I will read all these articles.

05:46

Okay. Will you promise me? Oh, the Brad Wilcox talk?

05:52

Yeah. Yeah. I've actually listened to this. Oh, really? Yeah. So something that you might find interesting about this is that his view,

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I think he's talking about 2 Nephi 25 -23 in there, because that's the verse that he's talking about.

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It's not this one, but that's actually listed later on here in the tract. Where is it?

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Maybe it's in a different one. But there's a verse in 2

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Nephi. Do you have Gospel Library app? You can pull it up there. 2 Nephi 25 -23.

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His talk is on that verse. But what Brad Wilcox does there is he changes the words to make it say something that it doesn't actually say.

06:39

Okay, so 2 Nephi 25 -23. Pull it up on mine.

06:50

Oh, yeah. Praise God, dude. That's so cool. Right.

07:09

So what's interesting, though, is in the talk what Brad Wilcox says, instead of after all we can do, he changes it and he says we should understand it as in spite of all we can do.

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But when he says that, he doesn't have a good basis or a foundation to make that argument because we know what the original

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Book of Mormon said. So he changes the language to make it sound softer because what this says, and it actually agrees with this verse, that there's a condition.

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You get the grace after all we can do. So when you ask the question, what does all we can do mean?

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It means we have to be perfect. That's all we can do. Right. That's the most. It is to be perfect.

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I understand that there is some complications. For example, he's elder.

08:11

Let me send you the video. I know that you already see it before. Yeah, I'll listen to it again and we can have a conversation about it.

08:20

This is? Yeah, I sent you a text so you should have my number. Does he do it before there's a new president?

08:29

So he said that sometimes it's like this is the gospel and this is the culture.

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The what? The gospel and culture. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes the culture is different to the gospel.

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For example, many members said, oh, the president of the elders. Yeah. It didn't work.

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Oh, it doesn't work. Yeah. And the gospel said he have a lot of work to do. And the culture said, no, he doesn't work.

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Right. Sometimes the people think that the culture is the gospel.

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And it is a big mistake. Yeah. And I start teaching. Because it's not a gospel.

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It's a culture. And the people think by generation to generation, the culture is the gospel.

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Right. And there is a lot of confusion about the grace.

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Right. Down in the church. Right. Yeah. I know that the church tried to get all this together.

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For example, he said maybe like a condition. Right. Yeah. But in this video, he clarified.

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And he said, no, the grace is not that you do all that you can do. And the grace is at this point to the perfection.

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Right. He explained that the grace is in the beginning. Right. And they can take you.

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Yeah. To the end. So there is a confusion that many people said.

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And I know that this is a problem with the belief of the evangelicals, Christians. Because the

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Christians said, no, the grace is in all the process. The Christians. And the culture of the church said, you do all that you can do.

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And the grace is after that. And this is bad. This is wrong. I hope to explain this.

10:32

Yeah. I understand what you're saying. So the Christian said, the grace is in all the way, all the path.

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Yep. And the culture of the church that is wrong said, you do all that you can do.

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And after the grace. Yeah. But it's bad. Because the gospel is almost.

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It's almost that you think that the Christian thing, that grace, is in all the path.

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It's all in the way. It's not after all that you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

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So one thing I would say just for you to think about, Brad Wilcox and Dieter Uchtdorf, they take the position that you're talking about.

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But church leaders in the past, and even some of them in the present, they actually don't say what

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Wilcox and Uchtdorf say. They actually agree with me on these passages.

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And I have a book here in my bag from Spencer W. Kimball, a prophet, where he actually agrees with this and he teaches it.

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And he says, you have to do these things. He says, perfection is attainable. So what you have is.

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Kimball? Yeah. Spencer W. Kimball. It's in a book called The Miracle of Forgiveness. Oh. Yeah.

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I read it. Have you read it? A lot of times. Many times. Yeah. So that's what I'm referring to.

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But what I would want to point out there is, this is an issue where culture is infiltrating the church.

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And what it's doing is it's moving away from a harder message that's actually there in the Book of Mormon text.

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And they're trying to soften it by saying, it's not after all you can do, it's in spite of what you can do.

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That's exactly what Wilcox and Uchtdorf say. But they contradict previous leaders for the last 150 years who have taught what

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I am telling you about this passage in 2 Nephi 25. They have taught you have to be obedient, that you have to deny yourselves of all ungodliness.

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And there are other verses in the Book of Mormon that also teach this. And it also says in the

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Doctrine and Covenants that repentance has to be final. If you repent of a sin and then you come back and you sin in that same way again.

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So let's say you tell a lie. You stop lying for a year. But then you tell a lie again. All of your former lies, your former sins, they return to you according to Mormonism.

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I think that's in Doctrines and Covenants 82 .7. I think that's where it says that.

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So what I would say here is, I understand what Wilcox and Uchtdorf say.

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But they're contradicting other Mormon leaders because this is a culture thing.

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The Mormon Church has long had a problem with people leaving because when they see this message, they realize they can't live up to it.

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And if you ask the question, has Brad Wilcox denied himself of all ungodliness? If he answered honestly, he would say no.

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So then you go a step higher and you say, what about the Apostles? Has Uchtdorf done that?

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Has Dallin Oaks done that? Have they denied themselves of all ungodliness? No. What about Russell M.

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Nelson? Has he denied himself of all ungodliness? I think he would say no. So what you have is an impossible gospel.

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What that means is nobody can do it. Nobody can do it. So that's why we're out here.

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We love you as a fellow man. I'm a Christian. You're a

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Mormon. You know that Mormons, we are Christians too.

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But you're Evangelical? Yeah, so we're Evangelicals, but we would say that Mormonism is not

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Christian because it changes who Jesus is. I understand the point of view, and I have seen videos where they explain that, and they say that we believe in another

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Jesus. We believe in the same Jesus, but I think that our point of views are different.

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So I would agree the point of views are different. The problem is that Mormonism adds onto the story.

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So let's say this is the story of Jesus. What Mormonism does is it adds something.

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How many do you have? I have eight, if you want to check them out. Let's go get you one.

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But what Mormonism does is it adds a different story or a different beginning about who

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Jesus is. I agree. So because of that, we would say that Mormonism isn't

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Christian because they have a different Jesus Christ. We use the same word, but what it actually means is different.

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Because in Mormonism, Jesus is our brother, right? He's the son of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, but the

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Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches that Jesus was always

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God, eternally. So he's not a created being. Are you saying that Jesus is the

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Heavenly Father? No. No, that's a misunderstanding of what we believe. What we say is that, yeah, and there's these ones, and you can take that one too.

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What we say, the Bible teaches there's only one God. But that we see

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God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. We see them clearly outlined in the

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Bible. They're all God, but they're not created. They were always

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God. They always existed. But Joseph Smith taught that Heavenly Father was not always

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God. Oh. Right? So right there, he did teach that.

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Because in our belief, you are, I don't know how to say it in English, but spermatozoid.

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Sperm. Yeah. You are a sperm God. Yeah, yeah.

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God in embryo. Yeah. So God in embryo, God in potential. Yeah. Right? So God always has been

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God, but in process. Yeah. The Bible doesn't teach that.

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No, it doesn't. So what we say is because Joseph Smith came and taught that, he failed the test of a prophet.

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And that's outlined here in this one. So in here, there's a test for a prophet, and it's in Deuteronomy 13.

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And you can look this up on your gospel library app in your native language so you can see better. But basically what it says is if a prophet teaches a different God, or a different idea about who

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God is, that contradicts what was already revealed in the

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Bible, that he's a false prophet. So Joseph Smith did that. He taught that Heavenly Father was not always

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God, that He became a God, and that we have to do the same. He also taught that Jesus came into existence, that He was not eternally

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God. So we have God the Father and God the Son that are different from what a

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Christian like myself would believe about them. So when you say Mormons are Christians, I have to say

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I love you, but that's incorrect because of these differences. Does that make sense? I understand. Does that make sense?

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Yeah, I know. I know your point of view. Okay, okay. It means you believe in Jesus Christ that came 2 ,000 years ago.

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I believe in the same, but we believe different about His premortal life,

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His eternal life, and the process. Right, and that's what makes them different. Yeah, they're different, but we say the same

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Jesus Christ that came 2 ,000 years ago, but I know the point of view is different.

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Right, well, to maybe help you understand, it would be like me saying, I'm Michael.

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You're Michael? Right, no, I'm not. But it would be like me saying, I'm Michael, and that I've lived the same life that you have, but some details are different.

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If I were to say that, I would be wrong, right? If I said your parents were my parents, would that be true?

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Oh, no, in this case, no. Right, and in the same way, when

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Joseph Smith said Jesus has parents, he was wrong. Jesus has parents? Yeah, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

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Oh, yeah? So, Joseph Smith was wrong in the same way that it would be wrong for me to call myself

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Michael and say that your parents are my parents. I understand. Does that make sense?

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So, that's why we're concerned for you is that it is a difference that matters, and it's not just a point of view.

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It's ultimately what it means is if you have a different idea about God, what

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Scripture calls that is an idol. He's a fake God. He doesn't exist. So, you can use the name of the real

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God. You can take stories from the Bible and say, this is the God I believe in. But if you add to his life, like in the pre -existence, to his parents, where he comes from, then you're changing who he is, and we're not talking about the same

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Jesus anymore. Does that make sense? So, let me please.

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Sure, sure. I really believe in Jesus Christ. I love him. But I have my belief in him.

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And it's this conference that premature life, mortal life, and eternal life.

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And this helped me a lot because I think the truth is that things like they were, like they are, and they will be.

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So, I really, it helped me to understand that all the eternity.

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Yeah. And about that, I prefer don't see the contradictions because we are men.

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And we always do mistakes. And I know that the leaders of the church are men.

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Yeah. And that they are, they are men. So, they are more perfect.

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They make mistakes, too. I agree. But I think that God use them, even now, their mistakes, because he have used me, or used me.

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Okay. Despite my mistakes. Yeah. And sometimes I have done things wonderful in his name.

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Sometimes I have mistake. Yeah. And, for example, Kimball said something about King Sal, King Suicidio.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. And after other member of the church, the apostles said something different.

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And for me, it's part of the restoration because the church, some people said the church was totally restored with Joseph Smith.

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No. The church started with Joseph Smith and continued restoration with his prophets.

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So, I think that in the other time, Kimball have a lot of life, a lot of life, like a lot.

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But not all the life. So, I think that, I think, I think that he is a prophet of God, but I think that he mistake,

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I think, I'm not sure, about gay men. Yeah. And Suicidio.

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Mm -hmm. And two things, but in the rest of the book are wonderful. Mm -hmm.

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So, the book is wonderful, the book is true, but maybe these two things, gay men and Suicidio, are a little wrong.

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Yeah. And because it's part of the restoration, after the apostles said something new, that is more life.

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Mm -hmm. So, I prefer don't see like contradiction, I prefer like see the restoration.

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And this is like, I have problem with visual. Okay. For me, this is the left eye, and this is the right eye.

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Oh, okay. So, for example, with this eye, I could see R. Yeah.

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But no, not near. Right. And this is totally different. Gotcha. It's near, no R. Mm -hmm.

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Yeah, you're talking about the two sticks, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. Vision is like a, no contradiction, is like a compliment, you know?

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That we believe in that. The same word in the

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Bible, the same word of God. So, I think that there are, so,

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I think that this is true, this is true. I think that they are together, you know, for good against some other.

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Mm -hmm. I appreciate that you explain it. Yeah, thanks for talking. I would say, you know.

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Give me just one second. Sure, sure. Please. Silvia. Silvia.

24:48

Hello. Escucha. Silvia, estoy por Banco Che y ya llego.

24:55

¿Dónde está usted? Ah, yo también. Agarró tarde a los dos.

25:01

Ahorita llego. Ya llego. Estoy en camino, literal.

25:06

Okay. So, thank you for sharing that with me, but I really know the church is true.

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And I have been missionary, and I see things that I said, this is not good. Yeah. Yeah.

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So, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Can I add something? You was member of the church? No, I was never a member of the church.

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You was outside? I grew up here in Provo, but I was never a member of the church. Ah, but you learn a lot.

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Yeah. Yeah, I learned it by reading the Standard Works. I talk to members like you.

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I listen to talks. I read articles and things like that, so that I can better understand what

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Mormons believe, or Latter -day Saints, if that's what you prefer, so that I can have a conversation with them.

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Because I heard what you said just now, and some things resonate with me, but the one thing

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I would want to leave you with is, Jesus says in John 14, He says,

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I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me. But, if we have a false idea about who

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Jesus is, then we can't come to the Father. We can't come through Him, because there are false ideas about Jesus that exist.

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As an example, a Muslim says, Jesus did not die on the cross, and He did not die for sins.

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Muslims say that. They believe that about Jesus, but they're wrong. He died on the cross.

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He died on the cross, yeah. Right. That's what the Bible says, right?

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But the Muslims deny that. So they have a belief about Jesus.

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They say the same thing as you. We believe Jesus was a prophet. We believe what He did in the Bible. But, He wasn't

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God, and He didn't die for sins. That's what Muslims say. They have a false

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Jesus. And Paul warned about this in the Bible. He said, I am worried that you will follow after false

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Christ. He said that to the church in the New Testament time. So, the idea of a fake

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Jesus, one that doesn't exist, it's in God's word, and the warning is there.

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So, in here, where it says, test of a prophet, I think that's probably, this one right here is probably the first one you want to look at.

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Because, if Joseph Smith taught a different Jesus, then your testimony about Jesus isn't based on the real one.

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Even though you love Him, and you will tell me that all day, and I believe you're sincere. I believe you.

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But, what you said you believe about Him, isn't true. So, that makes Him a fake Jesus. And by fake,

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I just mean He's not there. Right? That's all I mean. So, I don't say that to be mean, but I just want you to understand that we love you enough to tell you the truth.

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So, you know, read these, check them out. If you think we're wrong, we're here every week.

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You can come correct us, we'll listen to you. So, with all the respect that you told me, and I tell you with the same respect, we believe in the true

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Jesus. And I know that you are disagreeing. Yeah, I would have to say no, and it's not out of hatred for you, it's out of love, right?

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I love you enough to say, you know, that's just not what the Bible teaches. And Joseph Smith was wrong.

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Like, we have to say that. Otherwise, the message just never gets communicated. We believe that he died, and he went to the war spirit, and he resurrected, and this is

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America, and the other tribes. He's in heaven.

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Right, but you believe he's the brother of Lucifer, right? Kind of.

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You know, because he's kind of... That's what the church teaches. Yeah, I know. He's the brother of Lucifer, and he's your big brother too, right?

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Satanas? Yeah, he's your brother too, right? Satanas? Well, Satan and Jesus are both your brother, right?

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Yeah, we used to... It's like... It's because, you know... You know why

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I say kind of? I do, yes. If you go to the scriptures in the dictionary, you see the

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Son of God, and there are a lot of definitions. Yeah. So, under this definition, all of us are brothers, because we are all engendrados.

29:52

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You speak Spanish? A poquito. Okay. Engendrados. Fair God.

29:59

So, in this topic, under that, all of us are brothers, because all was born of God.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the other topic that said that the Son of Jesus Christ is the only that have faith, repentance, and baptism, and receive the

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Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. Yeah. So, not all are brothers. Yeah.

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Only the one group. And the other topic that we are sons of God, all the mortals, all men, are brothers, but not all pertain to the covenant people.

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Yeah. So, there are a lot of topics. So, under this topic, we are brothers.

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Jesus Christ, Lucifer. Yeah. We are in this topic, in the preamble to our life.

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But under other topics with the covenant people, no, Satan is not my brother because he's not a covenant.

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You understand? Yeah. And Jesus Christ is like my brother, but in the other topic, that scripture said that Jesus Christ is also the

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Son and the Father. So, in this case, I am his brother. I am his son because he died for me.

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But it's not literally that I am his son because I am his brother.

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It's like he adopted me because he died for me. So, it's a lot of topics. Yeah, there's a lot of details there, but I would go back to the example

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I used earlier where I say, I'm Michael and your parents are my parents. If I say that, is it true?

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No. And in the same way, when Joseph said, the parents of Jesus are

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Heavenly Father and one of his wives, that is not true. So, the Jesus you're talking about, he never came into existence.

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So, what happened is Joseph Smith took the Jesus of the Bible and he added things onto the story to give it a new spin and to tell a story of his own.

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So, the Jesus that you're talking about, he never existed according to the way that Joseph Smith taught it.

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So, in the same way, your parents were never my parents. I was never Michael. I can say that.

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I can say I believe it, but it doesn't make it true. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know. Okay. Just one question.

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Sure. Do you have brothers? I have one, yeah. If you are a good man, so if your brother is a bad man, is he still your brother?

32:44

Sorry? You are a good man, so you have one brother. If he's a bad man, is he still your brother?

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Oh, yeah. He is. Right. But the problem with this is, in the

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Bible, it teaches that Jesus created everything that ever came into existence. Yeah.

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Everything. It's like God is the architect and Jesus is the structure.

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No. No. What it says in John 1, verses 1 through 3, it says, in the beginning was the

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Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus.

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But in verse 3, it says, and he created everything that ever came into being.

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So, according to Joseph Smith, Jesus, go ahead and take that if you need to.

33:40

Silvia, can you see me? I'm walking, can't you see me? I'm walking.

33:56

Give me five, okay? Good night. You have to go?

34:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so... Take care. Yeah, let me text you the passage, just so you can look it up.

34:19

Yeah. I believe in this verse. Maybe not the same way, but I believe.

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Yeah, so, just look at the verses. Look them up.

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What this teaches is that Jesus was always God, and that he created everything. So, if he created everything, that means he didn't have parents in the pre -existence, and he's not the brother of Lucifer.

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He's the creator of Lucifer. That's what that means. He created Lucifer? Yes, sir.

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So, Jesus Christ is the father of Lucifer? No, Jesus created everybody and everything.

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What it says in Colossians, whether it's visible or invisible, whether it's in heaven or on earth, he created everything.

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Everything. So, he's not the brother, he's the creator of Lucifer. Which means he's not our brother, he's our creator.

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But in this case, he would be the father of Lucifer. No. But he created. No. Only if you believe

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God is like a man. If you believe Joseph Smith's idea that God is an exalted man like us, then yes.

35:25

But the Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches God was always God. Civilization.

35:31

So, check out those verses, and if you want to talk more, or send me some things to read or listen to,

35:38

I'd love to. And, you know, please check those out. We're here every week. Seriously, if you find something that's wrong, come talk to us so we can fix it.

35:46

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for your time. You know my testimony, but I appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you.