Lovingly Telling Mormons the Truth

The Book of Mormon’s Grace Teaching Versus Biblical Grace

How's it going? Good, I'm Craig nice to meet you. So what it is is it's looking at Bible verses and book of Mormon verses. We're Christians. We love the Mormon people. What we believe is is that the book of Mormon teaches things that are different from the Bible and Because it's different.

It's a message. That doesn't save people it it actually gives people a false sense of hope that. It gives them. How should I say this? That the Mormon believes they know God. But the God of Mormonism is different than the God of the Bible.

Okay. So in here what it talks about it is grace. You know what grace is? Right so in Mormonism. It's taught right here on the front. It says that if you deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and that is the bad things we do like sin lying.

Stealing things like that it says if you deny yourselves of all your sin. Then you get the grace. The problem is Nobody can do that and the Bible doesn't teach that. So when we ask the question are you saved by grace?

According to the book of Mormon nobody can Live that way. Have you lived a perfect life? Where you deny yourself of all ungodliness or or do no sin. Yeah, ungodliness. So so that that's sin or wrong. Let me let me yeah, go ahead.

Yeah. Yeah. Crossway Church in Bristol, Wisconsin. Okay. So what what we say here is that nobody can do that nobody can not Do bad for all their life. Yeah. Yeah, we can't be perfect that that's right you would agree, but what this says here, so it has two words if.

So the condition yes, so you have to do this in order to get the grace so If you're not perfect. Then you don't get the grace so if you don't get the grace. You're not safe. So that's why we're out here.

Because Mormons believe that they're saved by grace. But according to the book of Mormon just what it says right here Nobody can actually be saved because nobody's perfect. Does that make sense oh? Yeah, I understand.

Oh. Yeah, sure sure yeah, well. Yeah, if you wanna send something to me.

Okay, what's number.

You. Sorry. Yeah, so we're a member of apologia. Do you know where Riverton is. So about. A hundred and fourth South and Salt Lake. Yeah, so we're sort of by Sandy, but we're in Riverton so it's by a hundred and six.

Yeah Yeah. No. Agree, oh yeah, you know yes, I've seen those people. Yeah, that's not us.

I will read all these articles, okay? Oh.

The Brad Wilcox talk yeah, yeah, I've actually listened to this. Yeah, so something that you might find interesting about this is that his view. I think he's talking about second Nephi 25 23 in there.

Because that's the verse that he's talking about it's not this one, but that's actually listed later on here in the tract. Where is it? A Second. Maybe it's in a different one but there's a verse and Second Nephi do you have a gospel library app you can pull it up there.

Second Nephi 25 23. His talk is on that verse. But what Brad Wilcox does there is he changes the words? To make it say something that it doesn't actually say so. Second Nephi 25 23. Right so What's interesting though is in the talk what Brad Wilcox says.

Instead of after all we can do he changes. And he says we should understand it is as in spite Of all we can do. But when he says that He doesn't have a good Basis or a foundation to make that argument because we know what the original Book of Mormon said.

So he changes the language to make it sound softer because what this says and it actually agrees with this verse. That there's a condition you get the grace after all we can do. So when you ask the question What what does all we can do mean it means we have to be perfect.

That's all we can do right that. That's the most it is to to be perfect. I understand.

He's elder. Let me send you the video I know that you are ready to see before.

Yeah, I'll listen to it again, and we can you know have a conversation about this. Yeah. I sent you a text so you should have my number. Yeah.

So he said that Sometimes you it's like this is the gospel and this is the culture. The what the gospel and culture oh yeah, yeah, you know sometimes the culture is Different to the gospel huh for example many members said oh the president of the elders Yeah, didn't work.

Oh, don't doesn't work. Yeah, and the gospel said he have a lot of work to do and the culture said no he doesn't work right sometimes the people think The The culture is a gospel, and it is a big mistake yeah, and I start teaching Fakes.

Sure, it's not a gospel. It's a culture and the people think by generation generations the culture is the gospel right? And there are there is a lot of confusion about the grace right down the church right.

Yeah, I know that sure try to To get all this together. For example he said maybe like a condition right yeah, but in this video He clarified and he said no the grace is not You do all that you can do and the grace is and this point to the perfection right?

He's playing that the grace is in the beginning right and they take you yeah to the end so there is a confusion that Many people said and I know that this is a problem with the belief of the evangelists Christians.

Because the Christians said no the grace is in all the process the Christians and the culture that you said You do the all that you can do and the grace is after that and this is bad. This is wrong. I.

Hope to explain to explain with this. Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

Yeah, so the Christian said the grace is in all the way all the path. Yep, and the culture the truth that is wrong said you do all that you can do and after the grace. Yeah, but it's bad because the gospel is Almost it's almost That you think that the Christian thing that race is all is all is In all the path it all in the way is.

No after that.

Yeah, yeah, so so one thing I would say just for you to think about Brad Wilcox and Dieter Dorf they They They take the position that you're talking about. But church leaders in the past and even some of them in the present they actually don't say What Wilcox and updorf say they actually agree with me on these passages?

And I have a book here in my bag from Spencer W Kimball a prophet. Where he actually agrees with us, and he teaches it and he says you have to do these things. He says perfection is attainable. So what you have is Yes, Spencer W Kimball.

It's in a book called the miracle of forgiveness. Oh, yeah. Have you read it? Okay. Yeah, so that's what I'm referring to. But what I would want to point out there is this is an issue where culture is Infiltrating the church and what it's doing is it's moving away from a harder message.

That's actually there in the Book of Mormon text and they're trying to soften it by saying it's not. After all you can do it's in spite of what you can do. That's exactly what What Wilcox and updorf say?

But they contradict previous leaders for the last 150 years who have taught what I am telling you about this passage and second Nephi 25 They have taught you have to be obedient. That you have to deny yourselves of all ungodliness and there are other verses in the Book of Mormon that also teach this.

And it also says in the Doctrine and Covenants that you know repentance has to be final if you repent of a sin and Then you come back and you sin in that same way again. So let's say you tell a lie you stop lying for a year.

But then you tell a lie again all of your former lives your former sins they return to you according to Mormonism. I think that's in Doctrines and Covenants 82 7. I think that's where it says that. So what what I would say here is I understand what Wilcox and updorf say but they're contradicting other Mormon leaders.

Because this is a culture thing that the Mormon Church has long had a problem with people leaving. Because when they see this message, they realize they can't live up to it. And if you ask the question has Brad Wilcox denied himself of all ungodliness if he answered honestly He would say no.

So then you go a step higher and you say what about the Apostles has Updorf done that has Dallin Oaks done that have they denied themselves of all ungodliness know. What about Russell M Nelson has he denied himself of all ungodliness?

I think he would say no so what you have is an impossible Gospel it what that means is nobody can do it. Nobody can do it. So that's why we're out here and you know, we love you as a fellow man you know, I'm a Christian you're a Mormon, but.

Mormonism’s Different Jesus and the Claim That It Is Not Christian

Well, so you know that we are Christians. But you're evangelical.

Yeah, so we're we're evangelical. But we we would say that Mormonism is not Christian because it changes who Jesus is.

Where they explain that we believe in other Jesus, right.

So I would agree the point of views are different that the problem is is that Mormonism adds on to the story what what they do is. So let's say this is the story of Jesus. Okay, what Mormonism does is it add something?

If you want to check them out. Let's go get one. But what they what Mormonism does is it adds a Different story or a different beginning about who Jesus is. So because of that we would say that Mormonism isn't Christian.

Because they have a different Jesus Christ. We use the same word. But what it actually means is different because in Mormonism Jesus is our brother. Right, he's the son of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, but the Bible doesn't teach that the Bible teaches.

Sorry, the Bible teaches that Jesus was always God. Eternally, so he's not a created being. No, no that that's a misunderstanding of what we believe we what we say is that Yeah. There's these ones and you can take that one too what we say the Bible teaches there's only one God you go.

But that we see God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. We see them clearly outlined in the Bible. They're all God but They're not created. They were always God. They always existed but Joseph Smith taught that Heavenly Father was not always God.

Right, so so right there he did teach that. Yeah. Yeah, so God in embryo got in potential yeah, right. Yeah, the Bible doesn't teach that. So what what we say is because Joseph Smith came and taught that He failed the test of a prophet and that's outlined here in this one.

So in here there's a test for a prophet and it's in Deuteronomy 13 and You can look this up on your gospel library app in your native language so you can see better. But basically what it says is if a prophet teaches a different God or a different idea about who God is that Contradicts what was already revealed in the Bible that he's a false prophet.

So Joseph Smith did that? He taught that Heavenly Father was not always God that he became a God and that we have to do the same. He also taught that Jesus came into existence that he was not eternally God.

So we have God the Father and God the Son. That are different from what a Christian like myself would believe about them. So when you say Mormons or Christians, I have to say I love you, but that's incorrect.

Because of these differences does that make sense? Does that make sense?

Okay, okay. It means you believe in Jesus Christ. Years 2 ,000 years ago. Uh-huh. I believe in the same but we we believe different about his pre-mortar life. Right, and that's why. Yeah, the process right and that's what makes them different.

Yeah, that's different. But we said the same Jesus Christ 2 ,000 years ago. Yeah I know that.

Right. Well it to maybe help you understand it would be like me saying I'm Michael. Right. No, I'm not but it would be like me saying I'm Michael and that I've lived the same life that you have. But some details are different if I were to say that I would be wrong.

Right if I said your parents were my parents, would that be true? Oh No, right and in the same way when Joseph Smith said Jesus has parents he was wrong. Yeah, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Oh, yeah.

So Joseph Smith was wrong in the same way that it would be wrong For me to call myself Michael and say that your parents are my parents. The does that make so so that that's why we're concerned for you.

Is that it is a difference that matters and it's not just a point of view. It's ultimately what it means is if you have a different idea about God what scripture calls that is an idol. He's a fake God.

He doesn't exist. So you can use the name of the real God. You can take stories from the Bible and say this is the God I believe in but if you add To his life like in the pre-existence To his parents where he comes from then you're changing who he is and we're not talking about the same Jesus anymore.

Does that make sense?

Sure, sure, I really believe in Jesus Christ. I love him. But I have my belief in this. This. This helped me a lot because I think the truth is that things like they were like they are and they will be.

So I really I hope me to help me to understand all the eternity. Yeah. And About that I prefer don't see the contradictions because we are men and we We always do mistakes and I know that the leaders of the truth are men.

Yeah, and that they are. They are men. Yeah, they make mistakes too. But I think that God used them Leaving down their mistakes because he have used me. Oh use me. Okay. Despite my mistakes. Yeah, and sometimes I have done things wonderful in his name.

Sometimes I have mistake. Yeah for example Say something about himself. Yeah. And after other member of the church the Apostles said something different and For me is part of the restoration because the church Some people said that your was totally restarted with Joseph Smith.

No, that does that sure start with Joseph Smith and continue restoration with his prophets. So I think that in the other time Kimball have a lot of life a lot of life like but Not all the life. So I think that I think my I think that he is a prophet of God.

But I think that he mistake. I think I'm not sure about Gay men. Yeah, and And two things but in the rest of the book are wonderful. So the book the book is wonderful the book is true, but maybe these two things gay men.

Suicidio our little girl. And because it's part of the restoration after the Apostle said Something new that is more like. So I prefer don't see like contradiction. I prefer like see the restoration. This is like I have probably my visual.

Okay for me. This is the Left eye and this is the right eye. Oh, okay. So for example with this eye, I could see our yeah. But no no near and this is totally different here. No are. But when I use the ball This is not bad.

This is not bad. Maybe the both are incomplete and the both need the other. You know that we think you oh, we believe in It's a kill and Allow you that allow a frame and put together.

Be the same world. Yeah, you know, you're talking about the two sticks, right? Yeah, you know the two businesses.

Vision is like a no contradict is like Yeah Yeah Same word in the the same world. So I think that there are so I think that this is true this is true and They are together.

Yeah, thanks for talking I would say you know. Yeah Silvia.

Hello Escucha Silvia stick or Banco Chase a Diego. And it's a stay out. You're done. Yes. No, it's like a lot of those. Yeah. Think I mean So Thank you for share that with me, but I really know that sure is true and I have to be missionary.

And I see things that I said.

This is not good. Yeah, so yeah, you're welcome. So No, I was never a member of the church I Grew up. I grew up here in Provo, but I was never a member of the church. How about you learn a lot? Yeah, I learned it by reading the Standard Works.

I talked to members like you. I Listened to talks I read articles and and things like that so that I can better understand What Mormons believe or Latter-day Saints if that's what you prefer so that I can have a conversation with them.

Because I heard what you said just now and some things resonate with me but the one thing I would want to leave you with is Jesus says in John 14 He says I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father, but by me.

But if we have a false idea about who Jesus is then we can't Come to the father. We can't come through him because there are false ideas about Jesus that exist and as an example a Muslim says Jesus Did not die on the cross and he did not die for sins.

Muslims say that they believe that about Jesus, but they're wrong. What? Right that that's what the Bible says right but the more the the Muslims deny that so they have a belief about Jesus. They say the same thing as you we believe Jesus was a prophet.

We believe what he did in the Bible, but he wasn't God and he didn't die for sins. That's what Muslims say they have a false Jesus and Paul Warned about this in the Bible. He said I am worried that you will follow after false Christ.

He said that to the church in the New Testament time. So the idea of a fake Jesus one that doesn't exist. It it's in God's Word and the warning is there so in here where it says test of a prophet I Think that's probably this one right here is probably the first one you want to look at because if Joseph Smith taught a different Jesus then Your testimony about Jesus isn't based on the real one.

Even though you love him and you will tell me that all day and I believe you're sincere. I believe you. But what you've said you believe about him isn't true so that makes him a fake Jesus and by fake I just mean he's not there right that that's all I mean.

So I don't say that to be mean but I just want you to understand that we love you enough to tell you the truth. So, you know read these check them out if if you think we're we're wrong. We're here every week.

You can come correct us. We'll listen to you. You told me Yeah, I would have to say no and it's not out of hatred for you it's out of love. Right. I love you enough to say You know, that's just not what the Bible teaches and Joseph Smith was wrong.

Like we have to say that otherwise the message just never gets communicated. He died.

He will he went to the worst period and he resurrected and busy America and other tribus.

Right, but but you believe he's the brother of Lucifer, right? That's what the church teaches. Yeah, I know he's the brother of Lucifer and he's your big brother too, right. Yeah, yeah, he's your brother too, right.

Well say Satan and Jesus are both your brother. Yeah, we we used to it's like. You know why I say. I do yes.

Scriptures in the dictionary, huh? You see the son of God. Yeah, and there are a lot of definitions. Yeah, so under This definition, right? All of us are brother because all we are in Engendrados. Mm-hmm.

You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah poquito, okay in Kendra dos Fair good. So in this in this topic Under that all of us are brothers because all was born. Yeah, yeah, but in the other topic that said The son of Jesus Christ is the only that have faith repents and bouts and Holy Ghost.

Yeah, so not all our brothers. Yeah, only the one group and the other topic that we are some of God all the mortars Means our brothers, but not all pertain to that common people. Yeah, so I There there are a lot of topics.

So wonder this topic. We're brother. Yeah Jesus Christ Lucifer yeah, we are in this topic in the perimeter life. But on their other topics with the dominant people Satanic is not my brother because he's not a covenant.

Yeah, and Jesus Christ is like my brother but in the other Topic that's pretty sure said that Jesus Christ is also the song and the other. So in this case, I know. Because he died for me, but he's a It's not literally that I his song because I his brother is like He adopted me because he died for me.

Yeah, there's a lot of details there but I would go back to The example I used earlier where I say, I'm Michael and your parents are my parents. If I say that is it true? And in the same way when Joseph said the parents of Heavenly Father or the Parents of Jesus our Heavenly Father and one of his wives.

That is not true. So the Jesus you're talking about he never came into existence. So what happened is Joseph Smith took the Jesus of the Bible and he added things on to the story to give it a new spin and To tell a story of his own.

So the Jesus that you're talking about he never existed According to the way that Joseph Smith taught it. So in the same way your parents were never my parents. I was never Michael. I can say that I can say I believe it.

But it doesn't make it true. Okay. Sure, I have one. Sorry. Yeah, oh yeah. Right, but the problem with this is in the Bible it teaches that Jesus created everything that ever came into existence. Yeah, everything.

No, no what it says in John 1 verses 1 through 3 It says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The the Word is Jesus, but in verse 3 it says and he created everything that ever came into being so According to Joseph Smith Jesus go ahead and take that.

I'm sorry.

Silvia me puede ver si caminando. I Have to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, let me text you the passage just so you can look it up.

Yeah, so Just look at the verses. Look them up. What this teaches is that Jesus was always God and that he created everything. So if he created everything that means he didn't have parents in the pre-existence and he's not the brother of Lucifer.

He's the creator of Lucifer. That's what that means. No, Jesus created everybody and everything what it says in Colossians whether it's visible or invisible. Whether it's in heaven or on earth he created everything.

Everything so so he's not the brother. He's the creator of Lucifer, which means he's not our brother. He's our creator. No. No, it only only if you believe God is like a man. If you believe Joseph Smith's idea that God is an exalted man like us then yes.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches. So check out those verses and if you want to talk more or send me some things to read or listen to I'd love to and you know, please check those out.

We're here every week. Seriously, if you find something that's wrong, come talk to us. Yeah. You know my testimony, but I appreciate your time. Yeah. Thank you. It's pleasant talking with you. How about you?