Beautiful: Pastor vs. Ladies

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Across the country, women and men speaking out for and against abortion bans. Even here in Arizona, where there is already a law on the books.

00:07

So where does our state stand on the issue? You're on a boarded baby, my unaborted baby.

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Hey, ladies, I'm Jeff. What's your name? I'm Jensen, Jensen, Brie and Simone.

00:28

All right. Great to meet you guys. So why are you guys here? I am supporting the

00:33

I'm opposing the ban of abortions. I think it's completely inappropriate. I believe that there's we're not we're lacking regulating guns, but you are taking our our rights from us.

00:45

And we've already, as women, have struggled with our rights and having the right to vote. And now you are completely degrading our reproductive opportunities.

00:52

And kids are dying at a rapid rate anyway right now with the gun, like the guns going on in the schools. There's like hundreds of thousands of kids in the foster home system that that don't get taken for like they get taken for granted.

01:01

So it's just crazy that this is where we start with. We're not taking any steps in educating people about sex. We're not taking any steps in contraceptives like birth control.

01:10

Like now that's being taken. But we're going to these extreme measures to have these bans that are extreme and then not having to take steps forward to that.

01:16

It's just an extreme ban, I feel. Absolutely. I just I'm more of like it being a woman's choice.

01:22

I think the choice to have sex is both men and women. The choice to carry a child kind of more falls on the woman because the man can totally just leave at any point.

01:33

And like if we're going to make abortions illegal and have single women now raising children that maybe they never even wanted to have by themselves or maybe it's hard for them to have that child because of like mental illnesses or being raped or something like that.

01:46

So for me, it's more of a choice rather than a political viewing and wanting to murder babies, obviously.

01:51

So you mentioned that if a child has to be raised by a single mother or it's disabled, that we should be able to kill it.

02:00

We're so advanced in technology and science that we know ahead of time before the baby's even born that what conditions they could possibly have.

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So to be able to, like, prevent that ahead of time, especially if you're a low income family, you're not going to be able to take care of that baby if they come out with any kind of birth defects.

02:12

And there's no government assistance either to help that parent take care of it. So again, but found foundationally what you're saying, that if it's disabled and we discover it's disabled in the womb, we should kill the disabled children.

02:22

I'm sorry, I meant mental health in the mother, in the parents, like people who are just not suitable to be having kids and don't want to have kids for that.

02:31

OK, I'm going to answer. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. But it sounds like that's what you were saying. If we discover in the womb through technology that they're going to be disabled or something's wrong, we should be able to kill that child.

02:40

I would say so it's the thing. I don't think there's no programs to help this parent or these parents out when the baby's born.

02:46

So it's like you're kind of leaving this parent up to like you have to keep it until it's born and then you've got to figure out yourself. Like we're going to be in control of your body until it's born.

02:52

And then once you have it, that's all you. And I think that's kind of an unfair and unfair. I do actually agree with you that we need to make sure that we're caring for women, for for mothers and fathers, for children.

03:01

We actually need to. I think we're required and love would require that sort of a thing. But I think foundationally, we're not really talking about that in terms of the abortion discussion, because we're talking about is the argument is, is if something's wrong with the child in the womb, we should be able to kill it.

03:14

And we're saying that if it's raised in poverty, we should be able to kill it. So I think that's an extreme like way to put it.

03:22

But I guess like I mean, I just I just think there's so many more steps that can be taken. Like, I think the topic of abortion is a very sensitive topic, obviously.

03:28

But I think that there's so many other things like the the ban's going to an extreme, I feel. And I feel like we're not taking steps like appropriate steps before getting to this ban that need to be taken.

03:37

Like I said, I think sex education is huge. I think completely. And any even in high school, even in college,

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I did a presentation about it. And many kids don't students don't even know even the STIs or even just safe sex in general.

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We have a Wal -Mart across from our campus that doesn't even sell condoms. So I just think there should be steps taking like forward.

03:56

I think eventually maybe down the line, if we were to take these steps in order to prevent this, this final step of aborting, like the maybe we could get to here.

04:04

But I think we haven't even taken like these baby steps to getting to that point. And that's kind of where I'm at, because like Planned Parenthood, I know everyone's against them, but they offer so much more than just abortion.

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So I think they offer a lot and it's cheaper. So there's an argument that could be made in terms of if we think about this critically, because I respect you very immensely.

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And I believe that God's given us a mind to use it and use it well and to be consistent. But if you think about what we're saying, if we say things like Planned Parenthood also offers a lot of other services.

04:31

Well, my response is that Auschwitz served a very good chicken soup and they clothed and they fed people and gave them jobs.

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But what's the main problem we all recognize is they were murdering people. So you're comparing the Holocaust to Planned Parenthood or you're comparing the

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Holocaust to abortions? Well, in the Holocaust, we had a group of people who looked at Jews and said,

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I know it looks like a person. It's not a person. It's a Jew. We're allowed to kill them. And in the abortion discussion, we're saying,

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I know that it technically is a human and it looks like a human, but we are allowed to kill it. And so in the situation we have around us, we have that thought process that I know that it's a human being.

05:07

There's no disputing that. It can't be disputed. Even Planned Parenthood acknowledges that from the moment of conception, it's human.

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There's no denying that. All it is is a human developing. And so what we need to ask is when is it

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OK to murder a human being? When is it OK to kill a human? OK, so then my question for you. So I just had a friend who was her third child.

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She just had to get it aborted because she had a cyst on her ovaries, I believe, where her bladder had burst.

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And she's in critical care right now, but they had to abort the baby because it was either the baby was going to die regardless, but the mom was for sure going to die if the baby wasn't aborted.

05:37

So my question is like, so in that instance, is that OK? Like, I feel like we're saying black or white, and I feel like there's a lot of gray area that needs to be covered.

05:43

And I feel like it's not a black and white issue. I think there's a lot of and that's why I'm kind of the laws are extreme, too extreme for me, black and white.

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And I feel there's a lot of gray and there's a lot of ways that we can help stop aborting as much or stop like helping.

05:55

Why would we do that, though? I'm sorry. Thank you. Is it a moral problem? Is abortion a moral problem? We would want to lessen the amount or isn't it just something we just do?

06:03

No, I don't like the idea of abortion. I like the idea of a woman having a choice. And I have worked at a child facility for about eight years and I've seen what it looks like, what kids turn into when they don't have supportive parents and parents that don't want them, don't really care for them.

06:20

And it it ruins their lives. And that's where I'm like, I would rather. Should they be dead then? Is that what you're arguing?

06:26

If I think they should be educated, I think we need to start education. No, I appreciate her argument. I feel for you as a pastor.

06:33

We care for so many people in so many different situations. Poor families, families with a lot of needs. We've cared for tons of families that have considered abortion and then turned away from the abortion clinic.

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And now those children are alive. I've held them in my arms. But if we talk if we talk about what's actually happening,

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I respect the fact that you said, I'm not I'm not happy about abortion. But I just want you to consider why not?

06:57

If it's not a moral issue, why not? Why not? Isn't it the same as removing a wart or a toenail?

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Or do we recognize all of us that it's really something different? I think everybody here recognizes that it's more than removing a wart or a toenail.

07:09

What is it removing? It's removing a life. It is a human being. But what are your so you think rape's

07:17

OK? And then the woman should carry out her pregnancy. No, I think that rapists deserve the death penalty. So then but not the children.

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Come on, Alabama says that rape and incest, that's OK. No, no, no, no. If you experience this by rape or incest and then it's

07:29

OK, you have to carry your baby to term. Is that not what it says? Well, I'll respond to that. So so first of all, and this goes back to one of the main points you made a minute ago.

07:36

Sorry, I missed it. And that's that less than two percent of abortions, less than two percent are for rape, incest or life of the mother.

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The rest are essentially elective. So less than two percent are for rape, incest and life of the mother.

07:47

If we consider that, what's that mean? That the vast majority of abortions are done electively because they just don't want the child or different circumstances.

07:55

So in the issue you brought up where you have a life, the life of the mother truly in danger.

08:01

You mentioned you said the child's dying anyways. And so what you're talking about there is is is a rescue operation.

08:07

You're not talking about an elective taking of a human life. You're talking about a mother and a child who are hanging off a cliff in a car and you have a chance to grab one of them.

08:14

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about abortion here. We're talking about the ability to just kill our children at will.

08:20

Oh, that's what that's what everyone's here for, is because we're saying this is a this is kill your children march. I didn't know.

08:25

Well, in the womb, in the womb, it's a human being from conception. And it's a child. So you're saying someone is raped.

08:32

Let's just say someone's raped. What do you think? So that woman carried to term. That's all I'm asking you. Someone's right. OK, yeah,

08:37

I do appreciate the question. If somebody's rape, I think we should give the man the death penalty, not the child.

08:42

So the woman should carry out the birth is what you're saying. I don't think we should punish children for the crimes of their fathers. No. OK, so.

08:48

So, yeah. And then let me ask you, I'll toss it back to you now. So now in your worldview, a woman is raped.

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Should the man get the death penalty? Should the man get the death penalty? See that?

09:00

And I think that's another that's another life. But that's a life thing, too. So he can die. That's fine. But then like because he's committed a horrendous, wicked crime.

09:09

The child hasn't. So in your in your in your perspective, I would think pro -life pro -life for everyone, not just like the death penalty.

09:15

No, no, I know I'm hearing you. The difference is in terms of a category. A human being who maliciously, wickedly rapes a woman.

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He deserves to die because he's committed a crime. But I just want you to consider something. I don't mean this as an attack on you.

09:30

I mean this with true respect and love for you. You had a hard time answering whether you thought the man should get the death penalty for raping a woman.

09:38

But you're this fast about the child should die. Well, because it's just crazy to me. Like like I said, like with science and everything.

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And look at the statistics. Like look who mostly is affected by people who have to care after their their pregnancies.

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It's women of color and women who low income. That's that's majority of the women who have to deal with these pregnancies and then don't get to like aren't going to be able to have these abortions.

09:58

And to me, that's like crazy because it's affecting a certain group of people. It's not affecting like you know what I mean? I could look statistically like this is majority affecting as well.

10:05

You know that. And do you know the history of Planned Parenthood? Margaret Sanger with black people? Do you know that? Yeah. You know, you know that history that she was a very serious racist and she targeted

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African -Americans. And this is what really bothers me and troubles me because I think racism is a wicked, evil sin to look at another human being because of a difference in color of skin is a wicked, evil thing.

10:26

Well, Margaret Sanger was not only a rabid racist, but Planned Parenthood since the very beginning has set up their locations closest to low income areas and predominantly black areas.

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Planned Parenthood is actually responsible for wiping out much of our black brothers and sisters in this country.

10:45

I think that's kind of like a like dramatic just because that's a that's a fact. No. And I believe that. I believe I mean, I don't know about that history like prior.

10:52

Like, I don't know anything about that. But I'm saying like people evolve, hopefully is what we're hoping. And that you can like overcome, like you can have a different perspective.

10:58

Except that Planned Parenthoods are still set up in predominantly black areas and of low income, right? Are they low in and next to and next to female dorms, predominant female dorms, college campuses where the women are black areas where there's more of more of a black community and low income areas?

11:14

Yes. Yeah, because we because we've seen it. That's usually the communities that are most affected. Planned Parenthood is predominantly killing black children.

11:21

I mean, I don't know how to statistics, statistics on it. Like, I'm not going to answer that because I don't I really don't know. Like, I haven't looked it up, but I did.

11:26

All I know for sure is that those are the communities that are most affected by. So and just in terms of what we're thinking about when we think about because you guys are obviously very beautiful people and you're very loving and gracious, but in this case,

11:39

I just want to encourage you to see that maybe you've adopted a cultural perspective that you haven't fully thought thought through yet, because you acknowledge completely and I acknowledge that abortion.

11:51

We're not happy with that. But I just want you to consider this. If abortion is a moral right, then there's no reason not to be happy.

11:59

There's just there's no consequence to it. So what? Can I ask you a question? But I don't know if you want it on camera. OK, so I know like a lot with like the

12:06

Catholic churches and like a lot of churches that there's priests who molest children. And to me, it's kind of like you guys are choosing and not you guys.

12:12

Like I want to generalize like everyone like here, but I'm just saying like a lot of people choose to look at this and say, how are you guys killing children? Like, why are you guys so blind?

12:17

Like, that's like messed up. And it's like, well, like I can look at that and say, well, you guys are turning a blind eye to a lot of the stuff that happens in the church.

12:23

And I'm really glad you brought it up, because I think it's it's such an evil thing. First of all, I'm not Roman Catholic.

12:28

So, yeah, but even like a lot of churches like, you know, but I agree with you. I actually think that the Roman Catholic priests who've been involved in that deserve the death penalty.

12:36

I think they should be brought up on charges. They should they should be brought up on criminal charges and they should be given the death penalty as punishment for actually doing such a heinous thing to a child because we should protect children.

12:46

You agree? Yeah, I agree. How come you how come you how come not in the womb? Well, and this is the thing.

12:51

So like it's like I said, there's thousands of kids already in like the country who don't have homes, who don't have parents.

12:56

And like to me, it's like we could all be working together to help those kids. And we should we're choosing to focus on this issue.

13:02

Like and like I said, like I'm all about like preventative and like education. So like, why are we not preventing or like educating people or preventing it?

13:09

It's like we're just choosing to. Can I answer that? Just hopefully this is an encouragement, not a point to make you feel small or to refute you.

13:17

But Alabama does the ban. But Alabama is also leading the nation in adoption.

13:23

Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. OK, so they have a state who said that don't kill these children and we want all your children.

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And I want you guys to hear from me just as a friend and as a pastor. I've I've been outside outside the abortion clinic for years now.

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I've seen I've seen God save hundreds and hundreds of children, literally thousands across the country.

13:42

I've held these children in my arms when the mom was on in pre -op on the table. And she changed her mind when we were, you know, calling out and trying to help.

13:51

And I've asked hundreds of times outside the abortion clinics. I've said, we'll adopt your baby.

13:56

We'll pay for absolutely everything. You'll have no cost to you whatsoever. And this is the most common response that we've gotten, truly.

14:03

And I think it's heartbreaking. They'll turn around and they'll say to me, I couldn't give my baby up for adoption.

14:09

And then they turn. They go inside and they kill their baby. Do you think that's an easy? Like, I'm just curious. Do you think that that's an easy decision?

14:14

No, I don't. I don't. So I just feel like when she's like there and that decision is made, I just feel like we shouldn't be like telling her.

14:20

That's like that's where this all stems from. Like the whole abortion thing. Like, do I think we should kill kids? Like, obviously not. Like, I worked with kids my whole life.

14:26

Like, I don't think that's an option, but I think women should have a choice. That's my whole thing. I think a choice to kill their kids. If you want to call it that and you can call it that.

14:33

I think that's not the truth, though. Yeah, but like I'm saying, like, I think there should be steps like and like and it's sad that we've gone to this, like this far, this extreme because we haven't come up with steps to get there yet.

14:42

Now, shouldn't we say together, though? I mean, I'd be willing to work hand in hand with you. We shouldn't kill any children, but we also need to work together to care for all these children that have needs.

14:53

I think we should give them the choice. But I also think we should help them have decisions like, hey, this is sex education, first and foremost, because the majority of people,

14:59

I'm sure don't know much about any like much about that. Like, that's true. Like, I never had sex education ever in college, high school, anywhere.

15:06

Like, never. Did you go to public school? I did go to public school. I'm in university right now. And so it's just like you didn't get sex education in public school.

15:11

We learned about our period. You got it in elementary school. Yeah, it was it was menstruating.

15:17

And that was that was the simplicity of it. Yeah. Anything outside of human sexuality. I've had to take interest on my own and do my own research and then hopefully been able to spread that to my friends.

15:28

And I think that with the whole we don't we aren't happy about aborting a baby.

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It's not that it is the fact that choosing to have an abortion is not easy for women as well.

15:40

And it's a hard decision. I believe that because I think anybody anybody who's a mom is going to struggle morally with the issue of taking the life of your own child.

15:49

So, of course, it's it's a hard decision to make. I'd say it ought to be a hard decision to make. But can you guys see from even our discussion here that if we're all we all know we're talking about a human being, if we all know that we don't want this as a good thing, then the solution can't be, well, let's just let it happen because she has a right over her own body.

16:08

I think we all recognize because we're admitting it. What's inside of her is not her body. I think there's more like it's more than just that that's in these laws.

16:16

That's my issue. So like the problem I'm having with it is that like you're going to be sent to jail for having an abortion.

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Like, I just think like those are kind of extreme. And what should a mom get who kills her child? I don't think a mom should get anything.

16:28

I think so. The woman who the woman who drove her children into a river, her two kids into a river, taking the first breath of air.

16:35

I don't think that that counts as a living, breathing life. OK, so that that helps. That helps me to see your perspective.

16:41

OK. So if if a person is in the hospital, they've been in a horrific accident and they're required to be on a ventilator to survive.

16:49

So we have to mechanically make sure they're breathing. They can't breathe on their own. Can I kill that person because they can no longer breathe on their own?

16:56

Um, yeah. Yeah, they have wills or not wills, but they have stuff written out for situations like that.

17:04

I've had my own made that if I'm on like a breathing system or if I'm unable to make my own choices,

17:11

I have it written down what I want. And I have my parents, you know, your choice to determine what happens with your body.

17:17

Yeah, because I've had a life and I've had a womb isn't isn't being allowed to have that, but I've had the life and I've had the opportunity to to make that choice and not the baby.

17:27

But if you were aborted right now, you wouldn't be here and you would know. So just kill him. You're making it sound like, but I'm just saying, like, you wouldn't know.

17:35

You know what I mean? And like, so if I fell over right now and I stop breathing, would you guys come help me?

17:41

Yes. But your argument is if you're not breathing, you're not human. But you've already taken your first breath of air.

17:47

You've already you're here with you are here. So you have a you have an arbitrary standard that once you breathe, you're human.

17:54

I think I think the whole thing I think we're trying to get to is that we necessarily like we think we should just have their own choice.

18:00

Like we understand where you're coming from. I totally respect that. Like I totally get that. I think that's amazing that you should a man have his choice to rape a woman if he pleases.

18:06

That's his choice. And that's so I mean, I think that's so different. Why? It's you. It's a it's a person. A woman just to think about the parallel.

18:14

Now, a man is doing something to a woman's body. It's his body. He's saying,

18:19

I have a choice over my own body, but he's doing it to somebody else's body. You're saying he he has no right to do to somebody else's body things without their permission.

18:28

But the woman with the baby in her womb, you're saying she does have permission to violate another person's body without their permission.

18:35

I mean, it's really quick. You're comparing rape and abortion like you're saying. That's what I'm saying. In terms of a category in the situation of rape, the man is doing making a choice with his body, what he wants to do to another person's body.

18:48

Right. You're saying no to that. But you're saying yes to the mother who does something to another body within her that's not her body.

18:54

I think there are going to be ways to twist it. And we could probably go back and forth all day. There's not a parallel.

18:59

Isn't that a parallel, though? I mean, I don't see it like that because we have different views and I see your side and I appreciate how nice and how like how you're going about this conversation.

19:10

And I appreciate that your views. But I think that we can we'll probably just end up going back and forth all day because we both respect each other's views and we can have conversations.

19:20

But there's so much gray area and there's so many ways to twist things. Can I ask you one question?

19:25

And again, this is not this is not to create conflict between us. But just to ask you this with honesty and integrity here.

19:33

Is it possible that you have that perspective, that we just have different perspectives because you can't answer the challenge?

19:42

That it's it's it's a person doing something with their body as a choice to another human being's body against that person's will.

19:49

Yeah. So I'm not I'm not going to say rape and abortion the same or at least in that in that instance, like a man's taking his like whatever able to control woman's body.

19:56

And then why is that any different? Maybe I maybe clarify what's wrong with rape? That it's not it's unwarranted sex, sexual intercourse.

20:05

It's not wanted, obviously. It's someone who is forcing themselves on someone else. Like now what's happening in abortion?

20:10

I'm forcing myself onto another human being. I mean, I'm just curious. I haven't looked at the statistics. Like what are the statistics of like you said, two percent people who get less than two percent is is announced as abortion is for rape, less than two percent is life incest or sorry, life of the mother, incest or rape.

20:27

I'm just curious. Sorry. What is going to happen with all of the children that are no longer allowed to be aborted?

20:33

They're going to be had. And if their parents don't want them, what's going to happen to our adoption sister in foster care? I've seen so many kids get the worst shit under the stick of foster care.

20:42

And like it breaks my heart to the point that like why bring them into this world if you're not going to be there and care and love for them and you can't assure that somebody else will.

20:51

You seem like you seem. No, no, no. You seem like a very compassionate and a very bright person.

20:57

I mean that sincerely. So just consider this one thing. One is that if I take your argument as you state it, because the child is poor and it's a rough life, we ought to just kill them.

21:08

Oh, I didn't even say poor. There are so many children who are from rich homes who just get ignored. I grew up in Scottsdale with kids who have drug issues, alcohol issues, because they have no attention.

21:20

They had no support ever by their rich parents. So they'd be better off dead. They might think so.

21:25

And some of them end up like that because of the choices that they make, because of the lack of choices they and because the choices they make.

21:31

Yeah, but it's still the same result because of the lack and love of support. And if those parents would have just known that they wouldn't be able to offer that and can't assure that anybody else can, then maybe they would have saved those kids a whole lot of hurt and a whole lot of pain in their life to the fact that they had to take their own life or they had to get involved with things that did take their life.

21:49

So would you agree that we should have a council of people to determine whether you should live? Um, I don't even know if it should come up.

21:57

You mean like in the womb? Well, like what you're arguing is that people should be able to make the determination that your life's going to be too hard.

22:03

I'll decide for you. You should die. Oh, no, absolutely not, because there's no way to predict that, which is.

22:08

You just said that's what you would do if parents would have known and could predict that children would be raised and have difficulties.

22:14

They should be able to kill them. No, I didn't mean predict like that. I meant like if the mother carrying it is not going to be there and offer that support and know that or know that it has the possibility of getting that, which

22:26

I'm not saying it doesn't because they totally. There are some great. My stepmom was adopted. I'm not against adoption at all, but our adoption system and our foster care system is so messed up right now.

22:37

Adding millions of children into that is just. Can I say one thing? Just to go look this up because I think it would really bless you.

22:43

In Colorado, the Christian Church in Colorado worked together in Colorado's adoption system, and they cleared it out.

22:50

Right. And I want to say this, and this is just probably something I don't know if we'd agree on it or not, but it's it's it's

22:57

I think it's it would be solid. Early on in American history, it was the Christian churches that actually owned the orphanage and adoption care system.

23:05

And we were doing amazing with it. When the government stepped in and took over the adoption system and the agencies and everything else the way that they have now, we've seen this catastrophic situation with the adoption care industry and the orphanages and all the rest.

23:20

So I think when you allow the state to get involved and what the church should be involved in and they control it, it creates massive conflict.

23:26

But I think that when you see the Christian churches working together in the orphanages and the adoption care industry, we're actually we're actually owning that.

23:34

And we're doing a good job when we're in control of those those things. So the Christian churches and Christian agencies across the country are the ones who are actually leading in the orphanage care system and everything else.

23:47

We're the ones that are doing the most. And I think when you give it to the state, you create devastation. Awful stuff that you and I would probably be standing outside together fighting against.

23:57

But I just want to I want to just show you something. And this means so much to me. You guys hear this. You guys are lovely, bright, compassionate people.

24:05

You have so much concern for children. That's amazing. Why not for the children in the womb?

24:13

So I just have a question. This is a kind of like a side note kind of thing. Do you think there should be any steps, like honestly, like any steps before there's any kind of like the abortion factor gets in there?

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Do you like do you think we should educate like children on sex? And like, do you think contraception should be available to like more people?

24:27

I think. OK, I appreciate that question. Yeah, yeah. So I think that we I think we need to get back to a place in our country where we actually recognize that we are not a law unto ourselves, that there's a law higher than us.

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And we should teach people about the value and beauty and dignity of life and sex because our kids are being taught in public schools now.

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Any any form of sex that you desire, whatever your affections are, that's that's what you should do. You should go for it.

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There's no pure standard of sexuality. You should do whatever you whatever you please, whatever your affections are. We're teaching women that they're not so valuable as to actually preserve themselves for a man that actually commits themselves to them.

25:08

I think you should definitely have like we've adopted a mindset that women are not so valuable and their sexuality not so amazing that it should be reserved for a person who is actually in love with them and committed to them for life.

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We teach women that you can give yourself away to whoever. And if they if they throw you away later. Hey, at least you got to enjoy yourself or something to that effect.

25:29

So I think we should teach people that that they are valuable. They're image bearers of God. And sex is actually a beautiful, amazing, powerful thing that is should be protected.

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And because we don't teach that, of course, we have girls with all these guys who are just deadbeats taking advantage of girls, taking advantage of their bodies for their own pleasure, for their own joy and then just kicking them aside.

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And so you have, yeah, the abuse of women in our culture. I think it's because we've abandoned a Christian view of sexuality and women.

25:57

But so do you think that but do you think that fits everyone? I mean, so we know it's not realistic for everybody, because like you said, like not everyone has that mindset.

26:04

So what would be more realistic step to take? I mean, obviously not everyone. Not everyone's going to wait until marriage to have sex. But so then what's your what's your other solution?

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My secondary solution, besides coming into a relationship of peace and forgiveness with God through Christ, is that we absolutely should tell people if you're going to go that direction and devalue other human beings in this way and your sexuality.

26:26

Of course, I would prefer someone wears a condom so they don't risk actually creating another life.

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But if you do create a precious human being in the womb, you can't kill it.

26:38

Yes. Do you think that anything should happen to the men who then leave their children for the women?

26:44

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, OK, so I don't want to get into a big, but labor detail story of American history.

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But in American history, when you had people who were essentially looking to like God's word and God's law as the standard, they saw people as having dignity, respect, value.

27:01

Women were were seen as equal to men and in terms of their value and the human dignity and all the rest.

27:09

And yes, actually, in God's law, if you get somebody pregnant, God's law commanded that you actually are now required to take care of that woman.

27:17

You can't be abusive to her. Now leave her. In American history, if there was a deadbeat dad, he could be brought up on criminal charges.

27:24

He had to actually flee to another town. If he wasn't going to take care of his kids, he had to leave his town because that town so valued the woman and the baby that they would say, you are morally responsible to take care of that child.

27:37

We don't even care about that anymore. What about for the men who leave? They we get 99 years for an abortion and they get.

27:44

I I'm so glad you asked that. Can I I think that the Alabama law had a lot lacking.

27:51

And I think one of the things that should be clarified is that anybody who's involved in the murder of an innocent human being, anybody should be criminally punished as well.

28:02

So is that part of the law? Well, that's what I'm saying should be added. You need to be and they need to be clear. It's not just the it's not just the abortionist.

28:09

But if the father is bringing the child in, he's equally guilty. He's guilty. And that needs to be clarified.

28:15

And I think in a lot of situations, women are pressured by men to get abortions. I agree. And we have a lot of people who make making laws and regulations right now who have had mistresses have abortions.

28:25

So it's crazy to me that you're kind of like hypocritical. Very much so. And I'm glad you see it. But can I just point you guys to this?

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I think the reason that we all see that together and we despise that kind of hypocrisy is because we're all made in God's image.

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You're all uniquely made by God. We all know the same God, ultimately. But I want to say that the reason we know that it's wrong is because we have his law written in our hearts.

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We know that we ought to love other human beings. We know that we ought to hate hypocrisy. And that's why we do.

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But what I'm arguing for as a Christian is that the answer to our nation is through faith in Christ, knowing him, having peace with God through what he's done for us, his cross and resurrection.

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That's the ultimate answer is that we need to be changed from the heart up. From the heart up. So I just have one more thing to say, and then

29:10

I think we want to go join everybody. I get it. Yeah. But oh, my gosh, I just totally forgot.

29:16

It's OK. Take your time. Feel free. No rush. No rush. Communities used to like, what do you say?

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Like shun kind of like the husband. They would if the guy actually the guy had to actually sorry, the guy had to actually leave the town to escape, because if he stayed in town, he would be put up on criminal charges for not taking care of his child.

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But because we've abandoned God's word in our country and we don't have a Christian worldview anymore, predominantly, nobody thinks like that.

29:43

So secular secular legislators don't think with a biblical worldview where they actually say, no, there's a standard here.

29:51

And the woman has to be loved and respected. And the child, we don't think like that anymore. So in world religion classes and religion classes

29:57

I've taken, we I've always learned that women were always subservient to men until recently. I feel like this is a time where actually women have more control and more power.

30:03

And to me, this is where I'm feeling more equal to a man. And I mean, obviously, I haven't been around for years, but I just feel like there's more of a time.

30:08

You know what I mean? No, I'm so glad you asked that. And this is, I think, important because there's a lot of propaganda on both sides.

30:14

By the way, I'm not I'm not I'm not going Republican at all. There's propaganda on both sides of the aisle.

30:20

And the whole idea of like women in our culture now being seen as having more rights and everything else. But it's important to note that the worldview taught in schools today doesn't teach that you're valuable.

30:31

It teaches that you and I are the products of purposeless evolutionary processes that didn't have us in mind.

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Our ancestors were fish and then we were apes. And now we're here. We are. There's nothing different between you and I and rocks and snails and horses and dogs.

30:47

That's the worldview promulgated in our world today. The idea of equality between men and women isn't even historic in really most cultures except Christianity, because the

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Bible says there's neither male nor female in Jesus Christ. And then we're all created as the image of God together.

31:05

So in the biblical worldview from literally Genesis chapter one, men and women are the image of God equal from the start.

31:13

Now, we do have different roles. Like I'm a dad. My wife's here somewhere. There she is.

31:19

She's a mom, right? We have different roles. But according to God's word from the literally the first chapter, we're literally the same.

31:26

There is no one higher or lower. We have different functions. But think about this. The worldview that you and I are taught in public school because I went to public school.

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The worldview that we're taught is that you're a cosmic accident. No different than dirt, rocks, fish, literally.

31:44

I didn't learn about that in school. And I'm like, you guys, I never felt that way or felt like that. Like I never because you're in the image of God and you're not that.

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But that is being taught in school. And I want to say that that worldview so debases you as women.

31:58

It ought to be abandoned. And I want to say that what's happening here, I love and respect you.

32:03

But I want to just suggest to you one thing, and that's that I can be impacted by my surroundings.

32:10

No question. I'll confess something. I wasn't raised in a Christian church. So when I first became a

32:15

Christian at 16, I went to a church that actually taught me some things that just weren't even in the Bible. And I had to actually come to grips with the fact that I was impacted by my teachers and my traditions, and I had to ultimately abandon them because I saw that's not what the

32:28

Bible says. And I had to turn away from it. But I just want to suggest to you in the same way, we're all impacted by our traditions and culture.

32:35

And is it possible that you've been impacted by cultural apologetics and propaganda to the degree that you have three beautiful, wonderful, thoughtful women who love children so much and have so much concern for them?

32:47

But in this case, you've adopted a position that comes right into conflict with that. So I think that we both agree that there definitely needs to be laws to be helping these mothers and families with who may be thinking about getting an abortion.

33:01

But until that is seen, I don't think it's OK to take away a woman's choice and not even a woman's, a man and woman's.

33:10

If they both decide that they cannot have a child, then I don't think it's fair to take that away without any other laws being put in place to help them first.

33:18

I think it's like my closing. Yeah. And I think I get it. I know you have to go. And like I said, like if I think there was more steps taken ahead of time, maybe we'd be on the same side.

33:25

Like if there was more steps taken, I say like, like I said, my whole education and like contraceptives, like and those are still disregarded.

33:31

And there's like thousands of abortions still happen. Then maybe be like, wait a second. There is something still like kind of off. And then we'd probably on the same side, like talking about it.

33:38

But as of right now, I think there's so much like gray area still. And like I see what you're saying, like is murder OK in like the womb?

33:43

And I'm like, I see what you're saying. And I don't want to say yes. Yeah, but like I don't want to make that decision.

33:48

But in these circumstances, you think we should be able to kill humans in the womb? I think so, yeah. You do?

33:54

I yeah, I think that's what we're here for. And that's our choice. And that's a choice that we are allowed to make for now, for now.

34:02

And until then, we will fight for that choice until laws are put in place to help us instead of just hurt our families and children coming into the world.

34:10

Yeah. Can I just say one last word as you guys go? I don't believe that you really believe that.

34:15

Here's why. I believe that if we went out together for the rest of the day to go eat together and hang out together and we saw another human being abusing another human being, we would all stand up together to get in their way to stop them.

34:26

I wish there were more people like that, though. But in this case, you've adopted a position that says, but in this isolated case, we ought to be able to kill the most innocent and defenseless among us.

34:40

OK, there you go. OK. All right. It was Jeff. It was great to meet you. And Simone, you were wonderful.