June 2, 2020 Show with Ron McKinney on “Being in Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this second day of June, 2020.

And on this second day of June, we have the second time this week to have the privilege of having

Ron McKinney as our guest. He was our guest yesterday, and he is back to discuss a different topic.

He is pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia, and today we are going to be discussing what it means to be in Christ.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time this week to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Ron McKinney.

Thank you very much, Chris. I'm pleased to be able to come back, and the subject matter today is of utmost importance to me, and I have been in pastoral ministry for 55 years, and I've often had times when

I've wondered if the person I was dealing with was truly converted.

Does that mean right now also? Sir? I said, does that mean right now too?

No, no, no. I'm saying by this, you've had that experience with someone who claims to be in Christ and yet whose life does not back up that claim.

Or perhaps at times you even wonder about yourself. How can

I know whether I am truly converted? There are people who have little conviction or have assurance, rather, of their salvation.

And it's not just an academic question that I'm asking, but it's a question that concerns your eternal destiny.

Yes. And so I'm interested in speaking on that today, at least not to harm or to cause the tender to be injured by it or to have someone just questioning themselves.

No, not at all. I want you to have a sure salvation because it is rooted and grounded in the person of Jesus Christ that he is your only, only hope and your only savior.

Amen. Paul tells us that these new believers that were in Thessalonians, and he knows that God loves them and has chosen them for salvation, he says in chapter 1 of 1

Thessalonians verse 4. But how did he know that? And in that particular passage he gives his reasons for knowing that the

Thessalonians were God's elect, that they were chosen. I love to read that because it is one of the thrilling times,

I think, that I have when I have assurance of salvation listening to what he has to say.

My salvation is not based upon my own will or my ability to stay saved.

In other words, I'm not in control of that. I don't wake up in the morning and say, well, this morning

I'm going to really please God and I'm going to serve God because I've got a will to do so and I know that I'm going to be able to do it.

No. I wake up in the morning and I thank God, first of all, for giving me breath to breathe and I thank him that he's already worked in my heart and called me to be one of his and that he has made me one of his own and I have that assurance and I can rest in him throughout the day knowing that I am in Christ.

Now, that's not a false assurance. That's not something that comes by my will and my own understanding of just simply

I am strong and I can get through this. No. I know that I'm kept by the power of God.

I am drawn to him by his power and then I am kept by him and that I persevere not because of my own ability.

I persevere because I'm in the hands of God and he is drawing me.

That experience that you read there in 1 Thessalonians, particularly when you get down to verse 5.

These Thessalonians could know that they were elect because the gospel had come to them through the apostles with such power.

I love that. Let me make a statement before I get any further. This statement,

I believe, is true about conversion. If anyone's out there who is saying,

I just don't know for certain. I have no real assurance of salvation.

Now, I can tell you I have wrestled with that too. I mean, after all of these years, and I believe

I was converted when I was very young. I believe it was a true conversion.

There was perhaps some evidence that I could look at, but I don't make that as the basis of my assurance.

I don't look at my works or what has happened. I don't think about what people have said about me, pro or con.

I'm resting on a truth that's in God's word that he has stated.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, or as I like to translate it, he's a new creation.

Now, I want to emphasize that just a little bit for us this day.

If any man, now that is a universal call.

I love this. I'm a preacher of the gospel. I've had opportunities to preach over the past 55 years in various places.

Some of the strangest places, I guess you could ever imagine. I've been in 17 countries in Europe.

I've had opportunity there to preach the gospel. I've been to Alaska, and I've been to Hawaii, and I've been to all these other countries, and I've been to the

Caribbean, and all of these places, Pretoria, British, Virgin Islands.

These are places that I've been able to go and to preach the gospel, and it's been the same gospel.

And the privilege is to call men to trust and believe in the person of Jesus Christ and His work on their behalf.

I desire for them to see Jesus in all of His beauty, and arrayed in all of His glory and His majesty, to know that He is the

God and Savior of fallen, wretched, blind, deaf men.

That there's a Savior. Now, true conversion comes through faithful witnesses who present the gospel not in their power, but in the power of the

Spirit, and what that happens is it results in the changed lives that then spread the gospel to others.

The true conversion comes through faithful witnesses.

Listen to 1 Thessalonians 1 .5. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power in the

Holy Spirit, and with full conviction. Just as you know what kind of men we prove to be among you for your sake.

Well, the word for there gives the reason that Paul knew that these people had been chosen by God, and therefore they were chosen and they were converted.

The gospel had come to them not as a lecture, a philosophical lecture through religious people.

It came by way of the Holy Spirit through men who had integrity and who were fully convinced of the truth of the message.

I'm going to tell you, it was a powerful thing. This gospel, you know, it's the gospel that the

Apostle Paul preached. The gospel that men are converted by virtue of the fact that God calls them out of darkness into light.

I think of 2 Corinthians chapter 4 where he says this gospel is hid.

It's hid from those who are blinded. They're hardened.

They cannot see. They cannot understand the truth of the gospel. It's hid to those that are lost.

Now, when I think about that, I think what an amazing thing to be lost.

What an amazing thing to be lost spiritually. I know people don't think about that, and people wander around and they have no purpose for life.

I'm even thinking about the fact that right now there are riots that are going on.

There are protests. There are people that are doing all kinds of things.

They're breaking glass. They're breaking buildings, burning cars. All of the things that they're doing, and all of this is an expression,

I think, of a frustration because they don't have anything that they are satisfied with.

They're looking for something in this world. They're looking for a utopia which is never going to come.

They're looking for something that is not of this world. I can't help but have a feeling of just fear.

Fear for the fact that our country is going through all of this in terms of a pandemic that people just simply have a fear of what's going to happen.

And who knows what will happen. I tell them that there is only one hope, and I know that sounds cliche to some, but my,

I tell you that I do have hope, and I have a sense of satisfaction in the person of Jesus Christ.

Now, in order to have true conversion, if any man be in Christ, the little phrase in, to be in Christ, that word is ace in the

Greek. It's a simple preposition. It's something that the

Apostle Paul uses some 150 times in the Gospel or more.

And it's talking about the fact to be in Him is to be in union with Him.

How different that is from what we see most of the time, when people many times will be converted, at least they say they're converted, and they may have had an experience, not sure exactly what it was, but had some kind of experience, and then thought that by that they were converted and that they were saved.

Maybe a little later, after a year or two, maybe more, they depart, they don't come back.

What has happened to this? What was the problem? Why didn't they continue on as the

Bible teaches us that a convert will do? Now, he's going to have trials, difficulties, he's going to have a lot of hardship, he's not running a sprint, he's running a marathon, there are going to be times he's going to be knocked down, at times even may even turn from the faith for a time.

But God is able and does call them back if they're truly one of His.

But what I'm saying is, some people rest upon that conversion experience.

I have had people, they just open up their Bible and they show me a date and they said, it was on this date that I was saved and that God saved me.

Now, they may have no interest in the things of God and they may not even attend church or even pretend to, and yet they have a sense of being saved.

Sometimes we look at some of the things that are used today for conversion.

I'm talking about those things that are outward, those things that are done in the flesh.

I've come to the fact that just because I do something outwardly in terms of coming forward, just because you do that outwardly doesn't necessarily mean that you have the true conversion.

And what do I mean by that? Well, I'm talking about the fact that people are invited sometimes to come forward in a meeting.

And I've wrestled with this. Way back years ago, I came out of a movement in which we gave what was commonly called an altar call.

Right, you were in Assemblies of God as a pastor, as was your father. I was. I was.

I was in a large church in Memphis, Tennessee, and I was a pastor there.

And one of the practices was inviting people to come forward. And most of the time, that was a pronouncement then that they were saved, though we would counsel with them and talk with them.

But many times, there was not the change in the light. And I remember

I spent some time on the beach of Florida. This is way, way back, and I had what we used to call the

Bird's Book. That was the four spiritual laws that was used back then by Campus Crusade for Christ.

And I was on the beach there with a number of friends of mine from college, and we were going around and we were having them read this little pamphlet, and it had four different things that were stated, and if they said yes to all four of them, then we would ask them to pray a prayer after us, and they would do so.

And then we would say, now you're a believer in Christ. Isn't it wonderful? Now you're going to Heaven. Everything's fine.

And, of course, I learned not long after that that that was not salvation.

Oh yes. It was some of the things that took place.

They would profess with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him.

It wasn't that they heard the word and it came to them in the power of the Holy Spirit with full conviction, as it did with the

Thessalonians. It was word only. It was just word only. And see, that was a deception.

So if any man be in Christ, that is in union with Him.

And if I may, I would like to explain what I mean by in union. Yes, if you could just let me announce our email address first.

If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com

Please always give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And if you want to continue now on what it means to be in union with Christ?

All right, sir. I'll be happy to, and I hope that I can describe it so that could be understood, because this is very important as far as I'm concerned, because I believe many times this is missed in our modern evangelism.

Most of what we see today is very what I call easy -believism, and that's been around for a while but it's manipulation is what it is.

In other words, if we can get them to give me the right answers, then I can pronounce them saved. But the thing is to be in Christ, when

I talk about, I know someone. I'm trying to think of somebody

I could use, but even if I said well, I know something about the governor of our state.

Anyway, I've met him. I had the occasion to meet him when he was in Dallas. But I don't know him very well.

I know him, but I don't know him. I've read about him, but I don't know him.

But he has a family that really knows him. And of course, his wife knows him very well.

So there's a difference between casually knowing someone and really knowing them and knowing about them and knowing who they are.

And when it says here that if any man be in Christ, that he knows him, that he knows him intimately, closely, in a way that is not just superficial, not just on the outside, but knows him with reality.

He has had the glory of God revealed to him.

It's kind of like the Apostle Paul, when he talks about him, and then later on he talks about, he was knocked off of his pony, he was in the dust there, and God spoke to him in an audible voice.

And the Bible says that there he had, it was revealed to him in the face of Jesus, the knowledge of God.

It was revealed to him. And that's what happens in true conversion.

God opens our blind eyes, our deaf ears, and our hard hearts, and he shows us the truth about Jesus Christ, that he's a substitute, that he took our place.

He died as a ransom for those that he loved before the foundation of the world.

That's the truth of the gospel. That's the gospel message that's to be taught.

I want to read something for you, Chris. I think this is going to thrill you. I didn't ask permission, but I'm going to because I think he would allow me to.

I know this individual, this particular individual is living in China.

And after my first broadcast, I got a letter from him immediately.

Wow. Listen to this. Listening to the broadcast you did on Iron Sharpens Iron that I saw on Facebook, praising

God for how he works throughout the generations. The faithfulness of God in your life and love for the

Word affected my family in many ways. I don't know much about the history of my grandparents and their daughters being at Kinsey Drive, but I know that you serve

God faithfully and love his Word. In the past year, I have experienced, listen to this, true regeneration.

God has called me to repentance and has guided me to preaching from John MacArthur through a disciple who

God used to lead me out of spiritual blindness. I'm working through a work on biblical doctrine and have begun to study

Greek. My wife and I are going to be baptized soon, waiting for the

COVID restrictions to end, and have just become members of a church, a church to soldiers in Germany.

After my time in the military, my wife and I are considering attending seminary, but ultimately, we just want to serve our

Lord where we are very, very with every ounce of our strength he gives us.

God has been placing you on my heart the last few months, so I just wanted to reach out and say thanks, grace and peace.

Brother, I got that and I wept. I know the young man,

I know his family, but oh, I prayed for him that God would hover over him and keep him by his grace.

There were struggles that he had, but now I see that God has brought him to a true conversion.

He opened his eyes, and man, he said he led me out of spiritual blindness.

Now, that's what true conversion is. It's when the gospel becomes real to us.

I have a quote here I want to give you from my brother Jerry Bridges that has gone on to be with the

Lord. What a true servant he was. Yes, I had the privilege of interviewing him at least two times.

Oh my, I'm sure that was wonderful. He was precious, he was very humble and he was very consistent for the most part, and I just loved his writings.

I give his books away, I mean by the dozens. Every time somebody I know has a loved one who dies,

I give them a copy of Trusting God Even When Life Hurts. Oh yes, that book has done wonders.

You know, I've been through things with my daughter, with leukemia, cancer, relapse, the transplant, all that we went through.

That book has been a comfort not only to me, but to my daughter, and to my wife, and my children, and the people of the church here.

I mean, it's been used so much, we're so grateful for those words of comfort.

But here's what he said, this is in his book, The Gospel for Real Life. Have you ever thought about the wonderful truth that Christ lived his perfect life in your place and on your behalf?

As it yet grips you, when God looks at you today, he sees you clothed in the perfect, sinless obedience of his dear son.

And that when he says, this is my son whom I love, with him

I am well pleased, include you in that warm embrace.

The extent to which we truly understand this is the extent to which we will begin to enjoy those unsearchable riches that are found in Christ Jesus.

Oh, my brother, I love that. I can wrap myself in that and just think upon it, that I am in Christ.

He is mine. I am his. He is my salvation. He is my justification.

He's my sanctification. He is my all in all. Jesus Christ is mine.

And he is. And I am his. Oh, what a wonderful thing to know. Amen. And we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, again our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Please remember to always give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Ron McKinney and more of Being in Christ after these messages from our sponsors.

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And I always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Ron McKinney, pastor of the

Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia. And by the way folks, you might want to look up,

I'm telling our listeners they should, after this show is over, look up our previous interviews.

One that might fascinate them in particular is your testimony of how your entire family left the

Assemblies of God and Pentecostalism when you discovered the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

And by the way, I don't mean that as a slam against the Assemblies of God or Pentecostals.

In fact, one of the largest financial supporters of this program, Dan Buttafuoco, attorney at law.

Although he has become a Calvinist, he was, until not long ago, an elder at an

Assemblies of God, where he was an elder for decades, and he's still a member of that Assemblies of God church.

But I love the Doctrines of Grace, so does my guest, and we're not going to be shy about believing that this is a glorious monumental event when someone comes to believe these things.

And in fact, Ron's dad, who is now in glory with Christ, Don McKinney, he didn't have any choice as to whether or not he could stay in the

Assemblies of God. He was excommunicated. Yes, he was. When he became a Calvinist, that is.

You know, he still had some friendships with men who were in the

Assemblies of God up until the time he died. They respected him because he was a

Bible preacher, had always been, and he treated them kindly, though he was very definitive about what he believed the gospel was.

And he would not in any way shy from that. But he would write letters,

I'm talking about hundreds of letters, to former preacher friends and tell them about the grace of God.

And he was so earnest about wanting them to know something of the fullness of the gospel.

And one of the things that the Assemblies and some of the other Pentecostal churches talk about is the full gospel.

Well, I want to say, this is the full gospel. It is marvelous when you see it.

God opens your eyes. I know that to be true. God must do it. I had a dear friend,

Chris, who came from about 300 miles away and spent a day with me in Memphis after I had left the denomination and I had come to believe in God's grace and what we call doctrines of grace.

He spent the entire day with me. He was a mature pastor of a large church, and he just wanted to know what

I believed. And I poured out my heart to him, and I told him of all the wonderful things of what

God does for lost sinners and for those that are in bondage and slave to sin.

And you know that God calls us out of that. And at the end of the day, before he left to go home and drive four, five, six hours, he said to me,

Ron, he says, I don't understand it, and I don't believe that, but I know you do, and I respect that.

And he said, I want us to continue to be friends. And we were until he passed away.

I believe he was in Christ, but he had a very, what shall I say, a spirit of love and friendship, and I was so grateful for that.

But not everybody was that charitable. Some people really turned me off, and some people talked about my dad in such ways.

Many of them thought that he'd left the gospel altogether when he really found the gospel. In fact,

I had a friend, I may have mentioned this to you, he's also in glory with Christ right now.

His name was Al Stein. He was pastor of the

Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island for many years. And he was so highly thought of that he actually became a bishop on Long Island, an overseer of other churches.

And he became a full -fledged Calvinist. And when he had to sign an agreement every year, because they force pastors to sign something that says that they do not believe in eternal security.

And so what Al did was he put in there,

I believe, an evidential security, meaning that if you're truly secure in Christ, you will give evidence of being saved.

And they were satisfied with that year after year, and they did not kick him out of the denomination.

Well, as far as I know, as far as I know, that was probably the first one that there was really a big faith, because the entire denomination, the next year in their

Sunday school literature, it was against Calvinism. The entire literature of Sunday school for the entire denomination.

And that was someone that was well -respected, because he had been involved with the denomination for a long time, from early days.

He was one of those that was the organizer of Feed the Light, which was the missionary program of the denomination.

And he spoke at the general council, you know, the large council that they had, and he was well -respected.

But it was difficult because they weren't able to refute what he believed, and he would let them know what he believed.

So I'm not at war with any of those. I just spoke to one of my friends from the assembly the other day, and he's a dear brother, and he's now retired.

And I just love him, and I have fellowship with him. He still doesn't see what I see, but I know he knows

Christ, and that's first and foremost. Well, what I'm going to do, since we have to go to our midway break very soon,

I'm forwarding you an email that we just got from Cork, Ireland, from a listener.

I forwarded it to you so you could look it over during the prolonged midway break. All right.

And I'm going to read the question right now so our listeners can hear it, and you can answer it when we come back.

The question is from Mary in Cork, Ireland. She says, Hi, Chris and Pastor McKinney.

Personally, I found it very helpful to understand what it means to be in Adam under guilt and condemnation and sin being imputed to us.

I could then better appreciate the jewel of our salvation with all its multi -facets like reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, justification, righteousness, adoption, sanctification, inheritance, glorification, etc.,

and what it means to be in Christ. I understand what regeneration means, but could you please explain to me again what conversion means?

As some people say, they changed and converted to Christianity. Is this like an

Arminian view or not? Thank you so much, Mary in Cork, Ireland, and we'll have you answer that when we come back.

And folks, this is an elongated break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio requires a longer break in the show because they air this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format in the morning drive and in the evening in accordance to the

FCC regulations. They have to localize the show to Lake City, Florida, so be patient with us as this break is longer than usual.

Use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as you possibly can.

This way you will be helping to keep our advertisers satisfied when they know they're getting responses and that means that we are more than likely going to remain on the air for a longer future because we depend on the advertising dollars that come from these sponsors.

So write down as much information as you can that they provide. Also write down questions for Ron McKinney and send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

I Am Sharpened's Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

Ron McKinney and he is pastor of the Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.

We are discussing what it means to be in Christ. This is the second day this week he has been our guest.

We started interviewing him yesterday. That was actually the second time we interviewed him and today is the third time we've interviewed him.

We look forward to many more interviews with him. But before we return to that discussion,

I have some important announcements to make. First of all, this

Friday, I am so looking forward to part three of a debate that we had orchestrated last week,

Thursday and Friday of last week, between Don K. Preston, who is a full preterist, and his opponent,

Sam Frost, who is a former full preterist and an author of full preterist books while he was still promoting that eschatological view.

He also was a well -known leading advocate of the full preterist view before abandoning full preterism.

And they are, this Friday, going to be conducting what will mainly be a

Q &A with the audience because we had very little time last Thursday and Friday during the first two parts of the debate.

We had very little time left over for questions from the audience and I know how much audience questions means to the audience, so we made sure that we arranged for a third part of this debate.

So make sure you mark your calendars for that this Friday, which is June the 5th, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time. And we are, once again, preempting our normal weekly

Friday edition of the program where we have been giving COVID -19, coronavirus updates with Pastor Joe Jacobs of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, where he not only gives updates but he also gives biblical application on how we as a church are to respond to those updates.

So we will resume that the following Friday, which is the 12th of June.

So please mark your calendars. And folks, I also want to remind you that we are in urgent need of your financial support.

We lost, at least I hope it's just temporary, we don't know that for certain, but we lost two of our largest financial supporters because of the hysteria attached to the coronavirus pandemic.

I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of the pandemic when I say that, but there is certainly hysteria that has followed this pandemic and where the government is flexing its muscles in many parts of the

United States, depending upon who the governor is especially. And these two of my largest supporters had their businesses negatively impacted so greatly that they had to say,

Chris, I'm sorry, but we're going to have to postpone until further notice any financial support of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

So can you help us make up for that? Please go to IronTrumpandZionRadio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now, and you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.

And you could also arrange on that app on IronTrumpandZionRadio .com

to automatically give monthly if you so choose to do that. You don't have to do that, but we would love it if you did, obviously.

And you could also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what we believe here on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

And as I try to remind you every day, never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church where you're a member in order to give to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, especially during this pandemic because many churches have been hit really hard financially from the pandemic since they're not meeting, at least many of them are not until the last

Sunday. A lot of churches, including my own, began resuming public corporate worship, but many have still refrained from that.

But there have been many churches that have been hit seriously with the fact that their congregations have disbanded and many of their members have lost their careers, their livelihood.

So please don't siphon money away from your own church to give to us. And please don't put your own family in financial peril by giving to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Those two things are commands of scripture providing for your church and your wife and children.

Providing for Iron Trump and Zion Radio is not obviously a command of God, but if you love this show and you have been financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, you might have extra money gaining interest in the bank, maybe it's stuffed underneath your mattress, but you have extra money perhaps because you're not going to your favorite sporting events yet.

You're not going to the movies. You're not going to concerts. You're not going out fine dining. You're not going to all kinds of events that you used to love to go to.

Bible conferences, I don't know if I mentioned that, theatrical performances at plays, playhouses, and theaters.

I could go on and on with the ways many of us spend money on recreation and frivolity that we had to refrain from during this pandemic.

Well, the money that you saved on those things, can you please share some of that money with us?

If you love the show, of course, and you don't want it to disappear. Go to Iron Trump and Zion radio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. And there's an address that appears on the screen where you could send in checks via snail mail, if you prefer that, made out to Iron Trump and Zion radio.

I want to thank everybody from the very depths of my heart for enabling Iron Trump and Zion radio to remain on the air during this pandemic, even though we lost two of our largest supporters, as I've already mentioned.

You helped us make it through this. And I keep repeating this. I still have to get her permission to mention her by name, at least her first name.

But there is a woman in Austin, Texas that I had never heard from before who broke all records of donations with a gift that she gave not long ago that blew me out of my socks.

I am just so indebted to you. And you know who you are if you're listening. And I hope that you will always be a lifelong listener of Iron Trump and Zion radio and that we bless you and your life and your walk with Christ for many years to come.

Also, folks, if you are not a member of a Bible believing church in your area, please, if you're having a hard time finding a church, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put in the email subject line, I need a church.

I have helped people all over the planet Earth find churches where they have either joined or where they have visited on vacation, or where they have referred them to family, friends and loved ones who could not find a church in their own area and all parts of the globe.

So if you need help, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world. Send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and I may be able to help you find the church that you're looking for that is biblically faithful near you.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. And that's also the email address where you send in a question to Ron McKinney.

That's ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com and Ron, as you probably have already seen,

I forwarded you Mary from Cork, Ireland's question and I will read that.

I will read that again for the sake of our listeners. Would you hold just a minute and let me give you an endorsement of Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

Okay, great. I wrote this to you a few weeks ago or a couple weeks ago and I'd just like to read it again.

The truth of God's word can only be hammered out on the anvil of sola scriptura.

Iron Sharpens Iron radio broadcast is the smitty to forge gospel truth by the pounding out of biblical understanding in the fire of grace.

ChrisArnson's pertinent questions provide the tools or tongs to strike a chord of truth.

When I hear the pounding sound of the introduction of Iron Sharpens Iron, it reminds me that truth will follow.

Amen. Amen. I love and treasure that commendation and if my webmaster hasn't already posted it on the website,

I'm looking forward to him doing so. That commendation, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, only cost me a thousand dollars.

Just kidding. I'm sorry?

I've got to get this question back on. Yeah, I want to read it again just so our listeners...

Okay, I've got it. Okay, and Mary in Cork, Ireland says, personally, I found it very helpful to understand what it means to be in Adam under guilt and condemnation and sin being imputed to us.

I could then better appreciate the jewel of our salvation with all its multifacets like reconciliation, forgiveness of sins, justification, righteousness, adoption, sanctification, inheritance, glorification, etc.

And what it means to be in Christ. I understand what regeneration means, but could you please explain to me again what conversion means?

As some people say, they changed and converted to Christianity. Is this an

Arminian view or not? Thank you so much. And wow, I think that Mary has a career in writing ahead of her.

She really very eloquently wrote that, but if you could.

She began with what I would want to begin with, and that is there are three imputations that we find in the

Bible. Three imputations. The word imputation means to credit to one's account.

And what we know is that we are in Adam. All are in Adam.

And because of that, the sin of Adam has been imputed to us so that all are sinners.

We're sinners by imputation, but we're sinners by our own acts.

But we're sinners because of what Adam did. It was imputed to us.

The glorious thing is when Christ came to live his life and that he died on the cross, he died in place of us paying the penalty because our sins were imputed to Christ.

They were credited to his account as though he had committed them.

He was without sin. He had no sin, but our sin was laid upon him, was imputed to him, and he died in our place to pay the sin debt for his people.

But then there's another thing that happened, a glorious thing, and that is that Jesus has imputed to us who are in him, he's imputed to us his perfection, his righteousness, his godliness, his holiness.

We are in Christ Jesus because it's been imputed to us the righteousness of Christ.

When he looks upon us, as I read earlier in that quote from Jerry Bridges, that he sees not us, he sees not our sin, he sees

Christ and his righteousness in us. Now that's something that she understands because she said here, all of these multiple things, multifaceted things that we receive, along with all of this, justification, righteousness, adoption, sanctification, inheritance, glorification, what we have all of these things because we are in union with Christ Jesus.

Praise God. Now, the question she asks is about regeneration and regeneration and conversion.

Now, I will say this, regeneration is something that happens before we believe.

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit to quicken. Ephesians 2, 1, you have he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sin.

So regeneration is when God gives life, he gives a quickening, and one becomes alive.

Then, one believes and repents.

And the conversion is that we believe and we repent. And it is a continuation of believing and repenting.

Now, the work that she said here, they changed and converted to Christianity, is that an

Arminian view or not? Well, we could easily say that when

God regenerates us, he gives to us spiritual life.

And then there is the profession of Christ, the belief in him.

And remember, it's not just, it's not accepting Jesus. We don't, that's not what needs to be done.

Not accepting. It is believing in Jesus. And that's trusting.

That's laying everything upon Christ. It's all that we have is that Christ is our

Redeemer. We're not accepting him. We're believing in him. We're trusting in him.

We're relying upon him. All of those words. Then what happens is our life is changed.

Now, how much does it change? Well, our sanctification grows.

Now, there's one sense that we're sanctified in Christ. There's the perfect righteousness of Christ.

But also we have a personal sanctification there in which we grow.

And that is one of the things that God is working in us to do his will and to do his purpose.

And we're carrying that out in this life. So, I don't call that an

Arminian view. I believe we can easily say that we're changed by the grace of God.

There's true conversion. There's regeneration first. There's believing and trusting.

And then there is the changed life that comes. But we're always repenting. Changing. We're always getting, moving towards the day when we will be changed and be like our

Lord Jesus Christ. And if I say that, you've got to know that it's in scripture.

Because otherwise it would be blasphemous to say we would be like our Lord. We will be like unto him.

That is, we will be glorified. How about that? Does that help you? Amen.

Well, Adam, perhaps if Mary wants to send a clarifying email, she can let you know. I'd love to hear from her.

I think that's an excellent answer to her excellent question. And of course,

Arminians do believe in conversion, but they're not exclusively the ones who believe in conversion.

So, one of the main differences, I'm assuming from what you said, is that regeneration enables men and women to convert.

Otherwise, they would have no desire to, sometimes depending upon where you live, conversion, where those who know you and witness you, they are seeing you abandoning a former religion, a former way of life.

And in some areas of the world, especially when it comes to religion, that could have you executed.

I mean, very serious consequences, especially in Muslim lands. So, we would never convert if we enjoyed being in whatever state we were in, or whatever religion we were in, unless we were first regenerate.

I'm glad so much that you brought up all this about being in Adam, and that we are in Christ Jesus.

I'll tell you, that's the truth that we must stand upon. That gives us our great hope, our great hope.

Amen. Well, I had a quote I was going to read. Now, it goes back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier.

If I may read it. Sure, go ahead. Throughout the history of the

Church, some believers have begun well, but later have been pulled away from the truth they first believed and followed.

They receive the gospel of salvation by grace, and live for the

Lord in humble faith, but then fall prey to some system of legalism and works righteousness that promises more, but produces much less.

Some fall into formalism, substituting external ceremonies and rites for the internal reality of personal growth in the

Lord. Others fall into legalistic systems of do's and don'ts, proudly hoping to improve their standing before God by doing or not doing certain things.

The defecting believers had not lost their salvation, but they had lost the joy and freedom of it, and it returned, deceived, to the uncertainty and bondage of a self -imposed legalism.

They were still in Christ and right with God positionally, but they were not practically living in conformity to the truth by which they had been made righteous.

They substituted a form of religion that had no power or joy for the fullness of life in Christ they once enjoyed.

Having received new life in Christ by faith, they had been persuaded to live out their new lives by the old ways of works.

They had turned back from grace to law, from faith to works, from calvary to ceremony, from freedom to bondage.

Now, I actually don't know who wrote that. I have an idea, but I'm not going to say,

I'll just say it was not mine, but I think it was something that gave us, gives to us, an understanding of how some have come and they have made some professions, some professions, without having any true evidence.

The difficulty is that people can either fall into the do's and the don'ts.

They can fall into a legalism, something of works, or they can go to a more, what

I was talking about earlier, that they, let's see, the fact that they can get into ceremonialism, formalism, substituting external ceremonies and rites for the internal reality of personal growth.

There are two extremes that people can go. One is that they can go to a more legalistic, in other words,

I've got to do this and I've got to do that, and the other is you've got to, you've got to kind of keep all of these rituals and these ceremonies.

Now, I want to propose, in 1980, we had a meeting in Dallas, Texas.

It was a called meeting for study of the scriptures and it had to do with some tenets that were set forth and there was, there were those that were contending that it was not a scriptural, and we had this meeting at the hotel there, the

DuPont Hotel in downtown Dallas, Texas in 1980. There were about 500 pastors that came, that came from different denominations, that came from different stripes, but most of them came with the thought that they were not satisfied with two systems of theology that were being taught.

One was the covenant theology system, which is primarily of Presbyterian and Reformed denominations and organizations, and the other would be

Baptistic, but it would be others of a different stripe. They were coming together and there is going to be discussion concerning the grace of God.

This was something that was being discussed between the subject of grace and law.

Now, this is a very, very important subject.

I find it very important because it has a lot to do,

I think, with the subject even of sanctification. Now, when

I talk about the new covenant, I want to make the distinction, because most people don't understand this and they don't see this, but I want to underscore it, is that there is an old covenant.

We do know there's an old covenant, and what is the old covenant?

That's what I ask people all the time. The old covenant is not the

Old Testament. No, the old covenant was the

Mosaic law. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai to the people of Israel, of course they had made a golden calf.

It sinned against God, and he broke the tablet of stone, but he made a covenant with them, and the covenant was that they would keep this covenant, and they said they will.

They said that they would keep that covenant, which they were not able to. It was not possible, but they said they would, and so there was a covenant that was made with Israel.

Now, when we come to Christ's coming, of course everything that we have in the

Old Testament, every type, every shadow, all of the history of redemption, is pointing to the coming of Christ as being the

Messiah, the Savior, all of the prophecies that are made. And of course, we have prophesied in Jeremiah chapter 31, that there's another covenant, not one that was made with their fathers, which they had broken, but this is a new covenant that he's made with him, and that he will be their

God, and they will be his people. And he talks about this new covenant that will come, and then we have when

Christ, on the day when he was there in the upper room, and they were there for the last supper, and Jesus takes the talisman, and he holds it, that cup, and he says, this is the blood of the new covenant which

I give unto thee. And they partook of that covenant, and it was a brand new covenant that had been spoken of by Jeremiah, also given to us in Deuteronomy 29.

There are places where it is speaking of this new covenant that will come, and that the

Messiah will come, the prophet will come, that's spoken of in Deuteronomy chapter 19.

The prophet will come, and Christ is that prophet, and he institutes the new covenant, and all things then became new.

And as we know, what took place at that time is that as he went to the cross, and he died, and then in the temple, the curtain was ripped from the top to the bottom, and it was open for us, us that are believers, that are in Christ, who are in him, that we were able to access to him directly.

There is the priesthood of all believers, we were able to go into the presence of God, and to call upon him.

And what an amazing thing took place, that there was a new covenant that was made, not like the old one.

And of course, Hebrews goes over this much as we read in the eighth, ninth, tenth chapter of Hebrews and elsewhere, when he talks about that old covenant has vanished away.

It's been fulfilled, it's old, it was something that was temporary, and now there's a brand new covenant that's in Christ Jesus.

And now we have a new lawgiver. He's not only our prophet, priest, and king, he is all that.

He's our high priest, our new high priest, he's our prophet, but here he is, he's also the new lawgiver.

He says, you've heard it said of old, thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not, but I say unto you, and he gives to them a new law that is a greater law.

It is one that is filled with Christ being the one who causes men to live in such a way.

It is the law that is given, that is written upon the heart. It's not those that are written in stone by the finger of God, but it's law that is written upon their hearts according to 2

Corinthians 3. It's not one of the old administration, but it's one of the new, that now we have new life in Christ, and we have a new lawgiver.

That's why he could say, a new law I give unto you, that you love one another.

Well, we've always to love one another, but he says to love one another even as I have loved you, meaning as Christ is loved.

The motivation now is not a legalistic motivation. It's because our desire is to please

Christ and to live as he lives, to follow him, to emulate him in all that he did.

He said, when you give, you don't just give because it's a legalistic thing.

No. He says, for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.

It's because of the work that Christ has done on our behalf.

He has provided for us. And what is the blessing of the new covenant? One of the great blessings is we read in Galatians chapter 4.

He says that we now are able, because of Christ's work on our behalf, we are now adopted into the family of God, and we cry,

Abba Father, because now we have our relationship with him in which he is our heavenly father.

He's guiding and directing us by the blessed Holy Spirit. Now to me, there's the difference of having a salvation that is not fruitful, but one that is full and fruitful in Christ Jesus, wanting to please him and follow his example in every way.

And we have to go to our final break. And by the way folks, what our brother was discussing here is a matter of debate, sometimes very friendly and loving debate amongst

Calvinists, and sometimes unfortunately, and I don't think it ever should be, it can become a hostile debate.

But this is a divide between confessional reform Baptists and covenant theology

Baptists and new covenant theology Baptists. And some new covenant theology

Baptists would adhere to the first one in confession, but not all.

But I just wanted to let you know, so you're aware, that there is a division amongst Sovereign Grace believers.

In fact, my church would be a covenant theology Baptist congregation, as our guest knows, because he has preached there when

Walt Chantry was the pastor. But we have to go to our final break.

And by the way, Ron, I emailed you another very long email.

This one is from Andrew in Dalton, Georgia, so that you could read it during the break. And we'll be right back with your answer to that question, right after these messages.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Welcome back, and our listener,

Andrew in Dalton George's question is, Hi brothers

Chris and Ron, great show. In Romans chapter 12, verse 5, the scripture says,

So we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another.

Is it not true then that the functional racism so prevalent in the church today is completely unbiblical and should be despised and eradicated since we are united brethren from every tribe, tongue, and language?

That's Andrew's first question, and Ron, if you could answer.

I just simply say, absolutely. We ought to be functioning.

There's no such thing in the scriptures of having a white church, a black church, a

Chinese church, a Korean church. If we're in Christ Jesus, we're one.

We have had, speak in our church, several black pastors whom

I love, and one of them's already gone to be with the Lord, but these were men that I appreciated, and I wish that we would have those that would come.

I've sat down with two different churches here in my community that were predominantly black and talked to them about this very subject, but we're still dealing with this, and I would say there's no such thing as differences in terms of race as far as meeting together.

There's a one church. There is the Church of God, which is invisible, and then there is the local church, but it should be also representative of the universal church.

But in the New Testament, most of the teaching has to do with the local church.

Now, I'm sure you would agree, though, when you mentioned Korean church, that there's absolutely nothing wrong with, because of a language barrier, if a church wishes to reach out to Korean immigrants who predominantly speak their native tongue, there's nothing wrong with having a worship service exclusively in Korean.

No, no, I wouldn't have any problem. Let me tell you what I do know. My friend

Baruch Mayos, who pastored in Beirut... Yes, I know Baruch.

Pardon me? I know him, and I've interviewed Baruch. Baruch pastored a church of maybe 400 congregants.

There were people of all different denominations, I mean races that were there.

They had Germans, they had Arabs, they had

Koreans, they had all this, and what they did was they had interpretation of all those different languages in their church.

But even the Arabs that would come to that church predominantly, they were Jewish Christians, that they would leave their nationality outside, and they would come in and worship with it.

I mean, there is...it's just not the realism of having a separate kind of worship just for one particular group of people.

There should be...we should have more to do with different races in our local churches.

And we have one more question from...in fact, I'm going to ask our listener

Andrew, please be patient with us, but allow us to have you ask that question of Ron when we have him back on the show, because we have two people waiting to have their questions asked that I will not be able to get to if we read your question, so we'll keep this on file.

We have Bobby in...where is that?

I was just looking at it. Hartsdale, New York. Bobby in Hartsdale, New York. He says, I have heard

Jewish believers say that when we discuss conversion to Jews while evangelizing them, we should only use that term regarding Gentiles who come to Christ, never to Jews who are to be described as completed, not converted.

Do you agree with this? Well, before you speak, Ron, I don't know how people could have that belief when it's very clear in the

Gospel of Matthew. In fact, it's specifically in chapter 18, verse 3, where Jesus Christ himself, speaking to a predominantly

Jewish audience, says, truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become my children, you will not enter the kingdom of God.

So I disagree with that rhetoric. Do you want to comment on that? I agree.

I agree. I disagree with that. My friend Baruch Maaz, who is a

Jewish man who believes in Christ, and he was the one that has said to me so clearly, he said the idea of that a

Jew converted is something more than what another person is converted is, is not scriptural.

You know, we're all in Christ. May Jew or Gentile, black or white, whoever we might be, we're in Christ Jesus.

There's one, and that's what we must teach and preach.

And rabbinical Judaism is not Old Covenant Jewish religion.

And even if it were, they would still have to convert from that. But it's not even a biblical religion.

It contains elements, of course, of Old Covenant Israel's belief.

But, well, thank you very much, Bobby. We have Mary again from Cork, Ireland, who says, is this correct as sometimes we put the cart before the horse, so to speak?

I think people generally use the phrase, believe in God, when in actual fact, all they probably mean is that they just acknowledge things about him.

So with that in mind, it is easier to understand that we are firstly regenerated by the

Holy Spirit and become born again, which is solely his work before we actually believe, as believing is obviously acknowledging

Christ and his cross work, etc., and then trusting in him as our

Savior and continuing to repent. So I'm guessing that Mary is just asking if you agree with this.

I do agree. Do you have an order of salutas, the order of salvation, and regeneration precedes believing and repentance.

And that's certainly what she said, I think, right on. Well, we are out of time, and I'm going to definitely have

Ron back as long as he is willing. Thank you, brother. And the website for Kinsey Drive Baptist Church is

KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com, and Kinsey is spelled K -I -N -S -E -Y,

KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Amen. Amen.