July 15, 2016 Show with Mack Tomlinson on “Biblical Ecumenism & Catholicity vs. Unevenly Yoked” and “Starting a Library”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of July 2016, and I'm delighted to have back on the program once again my friend

Pastor Mack Tomlinson, and he is the pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and I am excited that we are going to be talking about a very important subject.

I've examined this topic on my program on several other occasions, but I don't think that we can talk about it too much because it's something that is a prevalent issue in the body of Christ, especially in the 21st century, and that is the issue of biblical ecumenism and Catholicity versus unevenly yoked, the rampant modern ecumenical gatherings that are taking place everywhere, which used to be the sole backyard, if you will, of the liberal denominations, the mainline churches and so on, but now evangelical churches are participating in these kinds of events, and not only participating, they're leading them, and we're going to discuss what real biblical ecumenism is and Catholicity versus being unevenly yoked, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Pastor Mack Tomlinson. Hello Chris, always great to be with you.

It's great to be with you, brother, and first of all, as we always do, let our listeners know something about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Well, we are a Reformed Baptistic Church in Denton, which is about 30 miles north of Dallas, Fort Worth, Providence Chapel, and anyone can find us in Denton, find our website at ProvidenceDenton .org,

and we love the Lord Jesus Christ and love his word and love his gospel, and we are thankful to be here trying to be a light for the gospel here in North Texas.

Great, and tell our listeners about this conference that you are participating in, this

August 4th through the 6th, Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine.

Well, this will be the fourth annual conference in Portland. It will be held at Deering Community Church there in Portland.

The website is FellowshipConferenceNewEngland .com,

all lowercase, FellowshipConferenceNewEngland .com, and as you said, the dates are

August 4th through the 6th, and it will be three days of biblical preaching, real fellowship around the gospel and around Christ, and believers have been coming every year from Canada, Nova Scotia, around New England, and as far down as New York City and Long Island, and it's a wonderful time of real fellowship.

We don't have any soapboxes or access to grind, but it's a conference that majors on the great doctrinal and pastoral truths of the gospel, and so we invite anyone who could come to Portland that first week of August to join us, and you would have to register at the website, but we hope you can come if possible.

Now, tell us about some of the speakers that are going to be joining you. Well, there are four men preaching,

Pastor Charles Leiter from Lake Road Chapel in Kirksville, Missouri, Pastor Jesse Barrington from Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, Pastor Michael Durham from Oak Grove Baptist Church in Paducah, Kentucky, and then myself.

Four of us will do the preaching for three days. There will be nine sessions divided up pretty evenly among the three days, and so we just hope that the

Lord will bring all those He wants here to feed them and encourage them. Great, and it's on the theme of the impossible.

Can you expand on that a bit? Well, actually, I should just clarify that.

I think the trailer on the website speaks to that theme, but that actually was from one of the sermons from last year.

Oh, okay. And so there is no theme, except the preaching will be pastoral, evangelistic, doctrinal, and we don't really have a theme except Christ and Him crucified and declaring the whole counsel of God.

Oh, is that all? We'll give a genuine effort, but we sure won't get to do that in three days.

Right. I hope to go. I can't guarantee it, but I definitely want to go to this one.

In fact, it might interest you to know that one of my listeners already contacted me and said that he has registered for it.

Great. So it looks like the promotion that we've been doing, at least so far, at the very least, got you one registration, because at least that's the only one

I know about right now. As far as from this program, that is.

I would say that the atmosphere of that conference is not large.

It's usually less than 200, but they are serious -minded Christians from the northeastern part of the

U .S., and as I said, over into Nova Scotia and Canada even. But it's a loving atmosphere of loving

Christ, loving His truth, loving the brethren, and that's why we call it the

Fellowship Conference, because Christians really do find true fellowship with like -minded brethren there.

And that is also Reverend Buzz Taylor's old stomping grounds. He lived in Maine for quite a number of years.

Yes, for 10 years. And once again, that website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Well, this is an interesting providential occurrence,

Pastor Mack, because we had, probably close to a month ago, scheduled this topic of Biblical ecumenism and Catholicity versus Unevenly Yoked.

We had already had this arranged for today, and it just so happens that today is the day before a major ecumenical event in Washington, D .C.,

and the brother of a friend of mine, actually this person is my friend as well, he said, you've got to do a program on this big event that's happening in Washington, D .C.,

and he was disturbed by some of the participants there being side -by -side with men that I would respect, and even men that I've interviewed, and so on.

So I looked into it, and it's very difficult to discern what their actual guidelines are in regard to how a speaker is qualified to be there, or how a church or parachurch ministry is being permitted to work with them.

There's no doctrinal statement on their website, and I'd rather not identify the name of the activity because I don't want to unnecessarily advertise it, but it's one of these big events that involves a group that even is well -known for having a very soft approach to homosexuality, and this whole thing is disturbing.

It seems that there are many Christians, even ones that have theologically sound doctrine, who are lured by massive crowds, and they think that somehow this is an ideal place to be spreading the seeds of the gospel because of the largeness of the crowds, but can that also not be counterproductive because of the message you are sending to those large crowds?

You may even have the gospel presented, but can not the gospel be undermined by everything else you're doing and the people with whom you are identifying?

One famous example, Pastor Mac, would be Billy Graham. He has a lot of things about him that are highly respectable.

He's a man who's very advanced in age, and in his entire public ministry there has never been a scandal of any kind.

There's never been a sexual scandal, a financial scandal. There are many wonderful and admirable things that we could say about Billy Graham, but he has, unlike any other figure that I can think of, introduced liberal ecumenism into evangelicalism.

I don't know of any other person who pioneered that with the magnitude and strength of Billy Graham, and he has even had people on his platform who have denied essential truths of the faith, like the deity of Christ and his bodily resurrection.

He has had Bill and Hillary Clinton sitting on his platform in places of honor, and even said that Bill Clinton would make a fine preacher and Hillary Clinton would make a fine president.

Unfortunately, his wish may be coming true, but we can't find out. Don't tell me

Bill's becoming a preacher. Who knows? But you understand what I'm saying here, that even though Billy Graham very often, if not even all the time, has the core elements of the gospel in his presentations, how much is that undermined when someone can say, well,

I really don't need to leave my false religion to follow Christ. I really don't need to leave the

Roman Catholic Church or even the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, or my liberal mainline church.

The main thing is that I recite a prayer and so on. What do you make of what I just said,

Pastor Mack? Well, I would agree with you that a public association with groups or denominations or a parachurch organization that are compromised on the gospel and they do not have a biblical, doctrinal foundation, our working with them, our association with them does send a bad message.

Because no matter how much we would try to speak the truth, let's say

I'm on a platform and I'm speaking with a Roman Catholic priest in a conference for a liberal high church

Anglican, which I've never done. And I know that I'll never be invited to do so.

But if I were invited, I would not do it. Why? Because my presence and my participation gives approval to those people's message and their position.

In recent years, there was a very well -known Reformed evangelical who spoke at the

Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City. And I believe he endeavored to truly state the truth as he saw it.

And he began at the very outset to say that he did not at all hold to a doctrinal agreement with them.

But still I thought in my own mind, is it not in the

Mormon's mind, does that not, his coming not make them feel like he's accepting of us, he's including us.

And so I couldn't agree more. And Billy Graham, you know, I've studied his ministry over the years closely.

And I remember I used to listen to his sermons in the 1960s and 70s.

And some of them were very powerful. Just straight, clear gospel, a call to repentance and yield to the

Lordship of Christ. But the longer his ministry became popular, it was when he was in London doing his famous London crusade that he had liberal

Anglicans and liberal churchmen who totally denied the basic historic doctrine of the

Christian faith. And he had them on his platform. And he would not evangelize

Catholics out of the Catholic Church. His ministry purposely said to their counselors, we cannot encourage anyone to leave the

Catholic Church or a dead liberal Anglican church. We're going to send our converts back into those churches to be an influence.

Well Martin Lloyd -Jones challenged this greatly. Because Lloyd -Jones knew

Billy Graham's public altar calls were giving many people false assurance that they had been converted.

And he didn't say everyone that made a decision in Graham's meetings was a false convert.

But even Graham later knew that a majority, many who made decisions in his crusades ended up not being truly converted.

And so Martin Lloyd -Jones challenged Billy Graham, I will cooperate with you if you'll do two things.

One, stop giving the public altar call and leading people in a prayer for decisions.

And number two, stop having liberals on your platform. And the story goes, according to the main biography of Lloyd -Jones, that Billy Graham was very moved by the conversation.

And he said, I'll go back to my board and I'll ask their counsel on this. And if they think

I should do it, I'll do what you told me. They did go back. They did not agree.

And Billy Graham was not willing to do it. And Lloyd -Jones never ever participated in that kind of evangelism.

And he was greatly criticized for it, but he was absolutely right. Amen. Yes he definitely was.

And the thing that's disturbing about that is that even though he admits that a small percentage of people are actually born again, who come forward, why isn't there a stronger warning when these altar calls are given?

I mean, as much as I disagree with the so -called altar call, which I know was born out of Charles Finney and his heretical movement in the 19th century, but as much as I disagree with it,

I do know a conservative fundamentalist, and even a minority of Calvinists who have altar calls, but they are very clear that when you are coming forward and reciting any kind of a prayer, that does not necessarily mean you're saved.

I'm just giving you the opportunity now to publicly confess faith in Christ and so on.

So they do it with more responsibility than some of the other folks that have these altar calls.

And even though, as I said, I don't like any kind of an altar call, I think that that is at least a more responsible thing to do, especially when he's acknowledging, unlike some ministries or some pastors or religious leaders, who actually pronounce that all those people who come forward are, without question, saved, he's actually admitting that only a small percentage are.

So why doesn't he not worry? I mean, why does he not warn these individuals that this is not a guarantee that they will be in heaven?

Right. Well, you know, I've often told others, I grew up in a

Southern Baptist setting in Texas, and I've told others

I made so many, I answered the altar call so often and with so many public decisions that I wore the carpet out in our church.

I walked to the front so many times to answer the altar call. And the simple fact is, the danger is, as Ian Murray mentions in his wonderful little booklet,

The Invitation System, Yes, I've read it and I have. He says, the problem is that people are given the idea that simply because they respond outwardly and go to the front of a church, they make that synonymous with salvation.

And they think automatically if they go and they do what the preacher tells them, that they've been saved.

And no greater mistake could be made, because if the

Holy Spirit has not produced conviction and regeneration and true saving faith, then they're only going to get false assurance.

But the second major mistake about that is, Mr. Murray says that preachers using altar calls to try to get people down the aisle, it's really, at the root of it, is unbelief about the

Holy Spirit's ability to produce conversion. But that actually goes right along with Finney's theology, because he did not believe that the

Holy Spirit... He didn't know about it, right? As Jerry Johnson very rightly put it,

Charles Finney was not a synergist, he was a monergist, but not the good kind of monergist.

He believed that salvation was entirely in the hands of a man. Yeah. But if you could,

I'm sorry I interrupted you there, I'm sorry. Well that's fine, I was finished. Okay.

I used to work for an organization that required us to give, when we traveled we were required to give altar calls, and I didn't like altar calls either, and I certainly didn't want to give anybody a false assurance of salvation.

So when I gave the altar calls, I would say, now I want every head up, I want every eye open, and I want you to take a stand for Christ in front of all your friends.

I mean, instead of trying to make it the secret thing, like don't let anybody else find out. Because it's really tricking people.

It's making people who are uncomfortable raise their hand, but then everybody's going to see them when they go forward.

But then they're told also, you know, you listen to some of these radio shows where they'll tell you, they'll pray that prayer and say, now if you said this and you meant it, welcome to the kingdom of God.

And it's like, how do they know? And you talk about false assurances all over the place. Now I don't want the subject obviously to be derailed to just be speaking about altar calls, because I actually do want to have

Jim Elliff or someone from Christian Communicators Worldwide who have written on that extensively to come on.

I don't know if you're familiar with Jim. He's a great brother, Pastor Mac. Yes, he's a good friend of mine.

Oh, really? But one thing to clarify before we move on from that part, and I'm not saying that we can't return to it, but don't we have to make it clear that we are not saying that a pastor should not be, or a preacher or evangelist should not be inviting people to Christ?

Absolutely right. Every true preacher should call people to immediate faith and repentance.

There's a great difference between trying to get people down the aisle in a public decision and calling people to come to Christ.

Some of the greatest evangelists in history were passionate about calling people to come to Jesus Christ, and yet they did not use a public altar call.

And I just want to reassure our Bible -believing, conservative Christian listeners who have a passion to see the lost come to Christ, I want them to see that we are not rejecting an altar call for the same reason that a liberal mainline church would not have one.

They would not have one because they have no concern, or even belief, that the lost individuals in their midst are lost or need to be saved, for the most part.

And they have a totally different reason for not doing that. My guest today,

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, and the majority, I would say, of theologically reformed Christians do not do this because, number one, it's not biblical.

You can't find this anywhere. Number two, it hasn't even been practiced in history longer than 150 years or so.

And number three, it can be dangerous. It can mislead people into thinking that because of a physical action on their part, like walking down an aisle, saying a prayer, and just repeating very often what a pastor is leading them to say, that that is going to save them.

And as my Roman Catholic friend Bob, now living in Colorado, but he was a friend of mine on Long Island, he used to say, when we would get into theological disputes with each other, he would broad brush me with Billy Graham and all those that do altar calls, even though I would constantly correct him and tell him that I don't do that.

He would say, you believe that you could go just walk down an aisle in a church, say a prayer, and then you can cry up to heaven, to God, you're stuck with me now, nothing you can do about it.

And obviously there is some truth in his humorous analogy, but I obviously, and no truly biblically faithful person, believes that that is the case.

But going back to our issue at hand, these events, when our listeners see an event like this, that is calling upon, basically indiscriminately, churches, pastors, ministers, lay leaders, parachurch groups, to join them for a major event, should not our listeners either do thorough research or reject the invitation altogether, if there is no doctrinal statement at all to be found in any of their publicity?

Well I would say so, yes. I think we need to be clear on what we mean. If I join in cooperation with an event, be it a citywide crusade, be it a prayer rally, or greater unity in the city, among all of the local churches, usually there's not even the most basic doctrinal unity.

I'm not talking about everyone having to be a Calvinist, I'm not talking about not being able to even work with or fellowship with Theta Godly Arminium.

I'm talking about they will not let there be any biblical truth set as a minimal standard for what we mean by what is a

Christian, what is the gospel, and what is true fellowship and cooperation based on.

And when groups are silent about those things, and they're very vague, it's a warning sign that they're wanting to be one and be in agreement.

But when you ask them what, they're going to say, well we all just need to love each other.

And they might say Jesus is Lord, but that means different things to different people.

Yeah, there are people who say that we are all just united under the banner of Jesus.

But some of the people there may have a Jesus that is no more God than Jesus, the guy that runs the

Mexican restaurant in your neighborhood. That's right. It's good to remember that the

Apostle Paul to the Corinthians, he warned about another

Jesus, another gospel, and another spirit. None of which were the genuine article.

And we have to go to break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mac Tomlinson on biblical ecumenism versus being unevenly yoked, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name at least, your city and state, your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA, and if you are asking a personal or a private question where you feel more comfortable not identifying yourself, you can be our guest and we will respect your wishes.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel.

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Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnzen. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today, as we are doing it live from the seashore here, our guest today is

Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. We are discussing biblical ecumenism and Catholicity versus unevenly yoked.

And later on, we hope to get also into a topic about starting your own personal library and what should be required elements in that library or at least highly suggested.

Required reading. And we would love to hear from you and your own questions at chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We already have a few people patiently waiting to have their questions asked. And as Buzz, my co -host, has said to me, how do you know they're waiting patiently?

I really don't know if they're waiting patiently, but they're at least waiting. And before I return to our discussion,

I just have a couple of brief announcements. Tonight through Monday in Salt Lake City, Utah, Christ Presbyterian Church, a congregation of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, Utah, is having a four -day

Bible conference with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries who happens to be a mutual friend of both mine and my guest, and Dr.

White is going to be including in those four days a dialogue with a

Mormon, Alma Alred, who is an instructor at the LDS Institute of Religion at the

University of Utah. That's actually going to be tonight at 7 p .m. 7 p .m.

Utah time, I'm sure. And then tomorrow, Saturday, July 16, at 7 p .m.,

Who is Jesus? is the theme. And he is going to be having, under that theme, a dialogue with a

Muslim imam. I'm not even going to try to pronounce that imam's name right now.

And then on Sunday at 9 .45 a .m.,

Dr. White will be addressing the theme, The Forgotten Trinity, a theme that's near and dear to my heart because Dr.

White's book on that same title, or with that same title, was dedicated to me.

And I will never be able to thank him enough for doing that. It was one of the most precious gifts

I've ever received, to have the honor of having my name in that book as it being dedicated to me.

And Sunday the 11th, I'm sorry, Sunday the 17th at 11 a .m.,

and also Sunday evening at 5 .30 p .m., and Monday night at 7 p .m.,

and then there are other sessions. The final session is Proclaiming Jesus Christ in a Hostile Culture.

For more information on all of those sessions, for those of you who live near or in Salt Lake City, or have the means to hop in a plane and get there as soon as possible, the website for more information is gospelutah .org.

That's gospelutah .org. And we hope that you enjoy and are blessed by this conference.

But last but not least, there is a conference that we've already mentioned that we want you to attend, and you've got a lot more time to make plans for.

That's August 4th through the 6th, the Fellowship Conference New England that our guest today,

Mack Tomlinson, will be speaking at. He will also be joined and this is going to be a time of fellowship, praise, and teaching from very solid

Biblical men of God. And we hope that you go to that website to register as soon as possible, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and God willing, we will be repeating that information before the end of the program.

And we do have a listener that we'd like to go to right now. Pastor Jeremy in Laredo, Texas.

A question I'd love to hear Mack's response to is, in this struggle between knowing whether or not an issue requires division, for an example, the deity of Christ, or agree to disagree, yet remain in fellowship, example, differing perspective on church membership, where do the doctrines of grace fall into line in Mack's understanding?

Well, that's a great question. Well, thank you, Jeremy, for that question.

This, in my opinion, it takes time to process this.

But my brief answer would be, and it is my firm conviction, that speaking of the doctrines of grace, of course, most people who know what we're talking about is referring to the five points of Calvinism, historically.

Total depravity, unconditional election, limited or definite atonement, irresistible grace, and the final perseverance of the saint.

I believe that there are many true

Christians who know and love the Lord who do not hold to that system.

In fact, probably a majority of people, when they get converted, have never even heard of the doctrines of grace.

And so, and then in God's goodness and in His time, they began to learn the truth and they grow in the knowledge of the truth quickly.

But I believe it's a mistake to require doctrinal unity, even on that level, as a basis of true fellowship.

Because the basis, Martyn Lloyd -Jones has a wonderful little book,

The Basis of Christian Unity, and that book is well worth reading on this point.

He talks about the fact that the basis of true unity is a belief in the gospel itself, the death of Jesus Christ for our sins, and that salvation is only in Him, and that a person must be truly converted and come to know and love

Christ. If that is true, then any believers who share that common salvation, they already have a spiritual unity and they should love one another and be able to have fellowship and not let other differences hinder their fellowship.

And I could go on here giving a historic example. Yeah, sure. It's well known.

The two British Methodist evangelists, George Whitefield and John Wesley, were a great example of this.

Whitefield and Wesley were Anglicans and they were the leaders of what became known as the

Calvinistic Methodist movement all over Britain. And Whitefield was a convinced old

Calvinist, while John Wesley was a Wesleyan, obviously,

Arminian. And Wesley not only rejected the doctrine of election and predestination, he really did it with an attitude.

He seemed to hate it and he wrote publicly against it, even publicly showing his disagreement with George Whitefield.

And Whitefield always seemed to be the gentleman. He would respond, but he would not let their differences on some major doctrines cause him to cease loving

John Wesley. And their differences were improved toward the end of Whitefield's life.

Wesley preached at Whitefield's funeral and he made great statements of respect and love and true

Catholic unity. But in answer to Jeremy's questions,

I don't personally think that unity is based on the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace.

I do believe ministry unity, men pastoring together, ministering together, elders in a church, or local church unity will be greatly increased when there's doctrinal unity on that level.

But for Christian fellowship in general, I can have true fellowship with and love for godly

Armenians who do not agree with me on my view on sovereign grace.

Right. And of course, as you were saying though, for unity in a church, not only for pastors, elders, deacons, but Sunday school teachers and so on, there is everything that it would be right about excluding those that do not agree with the church's confessional statement or system of theology, etc.

Exactly right. When churches have elders who do not agree theologically and are not truly like -minded, it's only going to cause problems.

No, I've seen it. I've seen it happen. I've seen it too. Because a man will either be silent about his differences and he'll compromise his conscience or finally, in his teaching, his differences will come out and then you have confusion in the church because the elders don't agree with one another.

So there must be doctrinal unity at every level when we're talking about church leadership and the local church.

Now we'll say we probably have people who attend our church who come in and they're receiving well from the ministry of the church and they love being there and they don't fully yet know what the church believes and we don't hide any of it but we don't treat them in a lesser way because they may not have theological understanding.

If we see that they evidence a true sincere love for the Lord Jesus Christ and a heart for the truth, then we embrace them as true brethren unless they later prove to be otherwise.

Right. There is also,

I'm sure you would agree, room for disagreement over less serious issues even amongst an elder board like I'm assuming that you would find no difficulty with a church having one elder who is a non -millennialist one elder who is a post -millennialist one elder who is historic pre -mill and that kind of thing.

I don't know, maybe you don't think that there should be diversity on those amongst elders but what is your comment about that?

And other things of unsalvific non -salvific in nature.

Yeah, there's a funny story from the past it's probably apocryphal but you may have heard it that a man was walking across the bridge in London and he saw a man who was preparing to jump off the bridge and end his life and he began to talk to him and found out that he was a professing

Christian that he was a Baptist but because when he found out he was a super -lapsarian he said jump

Heretic, jump! I've told that joke maybe a little bit differently in a lot longer version of it.

Yeah, you were definitely much more long -winded. I agree, I agree with you.

Secondary issues and it's important for Christians to come to understand what are essential issues that are non -negotiable.

Why don't you go through that actually in summary form. Give us...

Well, the gospel the inspiration and the story of the Bible the doctrine of the

Trinity the deity of Christ justification by faith the bodily resurrection the orthodox tenets of the faith there can be no fellowship with people who don't hold to those.

Now obviously... Okay, I'm sorry. On secondary issues eschatology the millennium even baptism some of my closest friends are

Presbyterians who hold to paedo -baptism. Yeah, the man sitting next to me does.

Well, I'm a Baptist I'm a credo Baptist I'm a Baptist by conviction and I believe

I would be willing to die for that conviction but brethren that I'm close to and love and who preach in our church at times hold to a different position.

Because that's an ordinance though would you not say a church would be very right to exclude people who disagree on baptism from their teaching or elder positions?

I would say probably so. I've known churches where the where an elder was not fully convinced of his position on baptism and he still taught or preached at times and he he was so mature in his views that he agreed never to address it in his teaching in church but elders and church leaders on those type of issues generally do need to be in agreement but on other secondary things as I said eschatology some ecclesiology issues those are not essential for all church leaders or within a local church to be in agreement on.

Right and when I posed my question to you about harmony on the ordinances

I wasn't saying that it is always wrong for a specific church to allow diversity on that.

I'm just saying that I don't think it's wrong for specific churches like those who adhere to the 1689

London Baptist Confession or those who adhere to the Westminster to say although you are our brothers if you disagree on the ordinance of baptism you cannot participate in the leading or teaching of our congregation.

So I think that those are two different issues whether a church can have diversity on that or if they must have diversity on that.

Right. Do you recall the early days of fundamentalism when they were obviously concerned about liberalism in the pulpits and of course we're talking about people involved

I believe it was Moody and Spurgeon and I can't remember all the names of those who were involved in the founding of fundamentalism but it seems that what they came around as a basis of fellowship was if I remember this correctly was the inspiration of the bible the deity and virgin birth of Jesus the blood atonement the physical resurrection and a bodily return of Jesus.

Right. Exactly right and you know what's interesting in that era of early fundamentalism in the 20th century in America Jay Grisham Machen one of the great defenders of Christian faith one of the greatest scholars in evangelical history really he had a proper ecumenical spirit a proper catholic spirit and he invited

Billy Sunday to preach at Princeton Seminary it was either at Princeton or Westminster it may have been

Westminster in the early days but he loved Billy Sunday because Machen said he powerfully preaches the blood of Christ and that's also why

Spurgeon had Moody preach at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London even though Moody was not a doctrinally accurate precise evangelist but Spurgeon recognized the power of the gospel through him so he had him preach for him

Now one of the things that you mentioned as an essential is the gospel and as you probably know

Pastor Mac there are a growing number of evangelical ministries who will allow

Catholics to participate not as members in the audience I mean

I would love to see Catholics in the pews of the church where I worship every Sunday so I'm not talking about that I mean a lot to participate in leadership for ecumenical events and so on they will say well they're completely acceptable because they believe in salvation by faith by the scripture through Christ by grace and to the glory of God and they very noticeably leave out the word alone from all of those and many of the ministries that have this ecumenical stance even in their public statement of faith they will leave the word alone out the pillars of the reformation the watch words of the battle cries that is very important as to differentiate a true from a false gospel isn't it that very one word alone absolutely you know the difference between evangelical protestant christianity and roman catholicism or eastern orthodoxy the orthodox church has no doctrine of justification they're even worse than the catholic church because they have no no doctrine or concept of being needing to be made right with God the only their doctrine is we need illumination and gain we need to gain in our knowledge where inwardly we can somehow be spiritual that's the that's the doctrine of eastern orthodoxy and they actually believe the atonement occurred in the birth of Christ not in the death well roman catholicism is a step above that but still no better they have a doctrine of justification but it has never been nor will it ever be a biblical doctrine of justification they believe that justification is through obedience to the church obedience to the ordinances of the roman catholic church obedience to the priest and to the pope and that it's by works and so there is no true gospel there at all and therefore there can be no spiritual unity with those who don't hold to the biblical gospel and one thing that is very often misunderstood well even if it's not misunderstood those who disagree with what we're saying at least accuse us of this they will say the root of what we are discussing is bigotry pride and hate and that is absurd isn't it because if you believe something with all your heart to be true and you believe this truth has eternal consequences and you believe that to be obedient and honorable to God means to follow these things that you believe to be true how could that possibly be hate now obviously there are people who do defend their religion as being supreme and unique and superior to all other religions and they do so from a spirit of hate and bigotry and arrogance and pride but that doesn't necessitate that that is your motive obviously if you want someone to go to heaven for eternity and you believe that certain things are required of that you would want that person to share that truth with you wouldn't you you can call somebody wrong but you can't always call them hateful and bigoted right well people would have to based on that argument they would have if they read the gospels that's

Mark Luke and John they would believe that Christ was the biggest bigot and hater in history because no no one was ever more narrow than Christ and his and his teaching um he taught that he was the way not a way but the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through him and so Christianity by very definition is exclusive and narrow and it couldn't be any other way people get upset toward evangelical

Christianity and call it narrow and bigoted simply because they're viewing everything through the lens of a man centered perspective man is the center of all things and there's no concept of of a

God centeredness if we start with God and we we say we have to believe what's true and right of God and then you work down to the

Bible then uh it's the most loving thing we could do is to hold to the truth as it's revealed and to tell people the truth only and to tell them in love but to tell them the truth let me give you another example of uh ecumenism that I'll have you remark on uh

I have pastor's luncheons and I have them I used to have them just once a year now it's become a uh biannual event that might even become more frequent but the last pastor's luncheon

I had I had nearly a hundred men there I'd say about ninety and they were from a very broad background there there were pastors from not only

Reformed Baptists and conservative Presbyterian backgrounds but there were fundamentalist free will believing

Baptists there were Church of God Finley Ohio folks there were Pentecostals Charismatics the

Salvation Army uh leader was there um and uh some other uh

Mennonites were there and some in the past very few uh have said to me why do you have these luncheons with such a broad group of people and I and I say well first of all they're not teaching necessarily

I wouldn't I wouldn't have somebody who has radical disagreements with me up at a podium teaching anybody anything and if you believe something is true and it's very important to you and very serious why wouldn't you want men to be uh exposed to the truth in a setting like that where they're relaxed they're enjoying fellowship and eating eating lunch and having a good meal and enjoying you know just a very enjoyable day why wouldn't you want people that disagreed with you at an event like that so they could learn something possibly and on top of that I give away books uh hundreds of books uh from publishers that I specifically choose who donate these books on specific subjects that I request so all these men are leaving there with a sack of 30 or 40 books that they've gotten free of charge and they're going home with them and putting them in their libraries wouldn't that make absolute sense to have that kind of an ecumenical gathering absolutely

I truly agree completely and I'm often in conferences and places and settings for instance sometimes when

I travel I'll get invited to speak to pastors luncheons like that there might be a broad spectrum there might be an evangelical

Baptist there there might be an assembly of God there there might be an independent

Baptist there but I believe many of those men uh do know and love the

Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity they're truly converted men and they come from settings where God has not been pleased yet to have them believe the truth that I believe and yet I believe we should lovingly and graciously relate to such men and seek to be an influence and an encouragement to them you know as Aquila and Priscilla were

Lord Apollos um and so that's exactly the right spirit and attitude that I think we should have in fact

I can say that I did have a non -Calvinist even speak at my last uh luncheon but the issue he was addressing was

Islam because he's one of the most knowledgeable experts on the subject of Islam I actually came to know him through Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries a mutual friend David Wood and he had everybody including the

Reformed Baptists there spellbound by his vast knowledge on this subject and I had no qualms about him not being a

Calvinist because he wasn't addressing that so right in fact this fall

I'm doing two conferences in Texas in October with a dear friend of mine he and I both are sharing the preaching and we don't see eye to eye on some of these doctrinal specifics but we love one another we respect one another we benefit from one another's ministries and so um

I believe it's just a wonderful thing well we have to go to a break right now and if you'd like to join us we do have a couple of people still waiting and I apologize that I've kept you waiting so long but we'll try to get to your questions as soon as we get back from the break but if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com and please remember to give us at least your first name city and state of residence and country of residence unless you are remaining anonymous for a personal and private matter that you want to address so don't go away we're going to be back right after these messages

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man I would not be a servant of Christ hi

I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are a reformed Baptist church and we hold to the

London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and visit us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

TV program entitled Resting in Grace you can find us at Providence Baptist Church MA .org

that's Providence Baptist Church MA .org or even on sermonaudio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries the

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tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island well there's good news

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at WRBC .US

that's WRBC .US Welcome back this is

Chris Arnes and if you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today is Pastor Mack Tomlinson and he is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton Texas we are speaking on the subject of biblical ecumenism regarding and we are also perhaps if we have time going to discuss starting your own personal library and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

ChrisArnes at gmail .com ChrisArnes at gmail .com and I also don't want you to forget about a conference that Pastor Mack Tomlinson is not only participating in but he has helped to orchestrate this annual conference it's called

Fellowship Conference New England and that is going to be held this August and the website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com it's going to be held August 4th through the 6th and it's going to be held at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine Reverend Buzz Taylor's old stopping ground so if you'd like to attend that conference go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com

and by the way I'd like to pat Iron Sharpens Iron on the back because I think that Iron Sharpens Iron really demonstrates biblical humanism number one my co -host here is a

Presbyterian I am a Reformed Baptist and you just heard an ad by one of my most faithful supporters ever since my program first began in 2006

Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church he not only supports this program with advertising dollars he purchased much of the studio equipment that we use every day on this program and he has been an encouragement to me beyond adequate explanation and Ron Glass although he is a thoroughgoing five -point

Calvinist he is just as strong in his views of dispensationalism he is a premillennialist and pre -tribulationalist and he knows that I am not he knows that I am amillennial he knows that I am not a dispensationalist and yet he finds so much value in this program anyway that he eagerly not only supports it but was the main catalyst in the relaunching of my program in Carlisle, Pennsylvania last year so I want to just give out another word of thanks to my dear friend

Pastor Ron Glass and the congregation at Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island and their website is wrbc .us

wrbc .us Wading River Baptist Church dot us but don't you think that fits the spirit of a biblically ecumenical program

Pastor Mac? Absolutely does. It's true evangelical unity based on the essentials of the of the gospel yeah i i actually think uh...

i don't know for certain but i think i may even have more presbyterians as guests on my show than i have baptists on my show see there's hope for you again yeah right uh...

never gonna happen buzz never gonna happen uh... we do have let's see as far as our listeners go that are waiting to have their questions asked we have erin in indianapolis indiana uh...

let's see hi chris if this is not addressed otherwise could i get the thoughts of you buzz and pastor tomlinson how to most lovingly yet firmingly explain my absence from ecumenical gatherings beliefs etc to friends of and family when invited when the topic arises no matter how hard i try to explain i end up sounding like a jerk well uh...

since you're an expert on something like a jerk reverend buzz uh... well so i like a jerk is an acquired taste well yes some people are never going to be satisfied with any explanation that you have for that kind of a thing but that's a very good question of pastor mac and of course buzz you can also answer uh...

because uh... i i can recall especially when i was on long island uh...

especially in my earlier days of of christianity after beginning after becoming a born -again christian and being a member of a reform baptist church and but at the same time especially when i was single i was going to a lot of uh...

gatherings that other churches were having bible studies and things like that that were especially when they were especially for single people when i was a young man in my twenties and uh...

those churches very often were saying hey yeah you go into the billy graham crusade is a church involved in the billy graham crusade is a church involved in the promise keeper gathering is a church involved in this is a trip now it always be no no and they thought that i was like a cult uh...

some pastor mac if you could uh... give your uh... advice to this uh...

lady uh... erin in indianapolis indiana who wants to know how to how to as lovingly as possible explain these things to her friends well i think the very first and most important thing is to maintain an attitude of humility and graciousness it's easy to get defensive yeah and proud and respond out of that spirit and that never is good i would encourage her to get the small booklet by martin louis jones the basis of christian unity because it totally answers the question she's asking it shows what is the true basis of unity and what is false unity and how we shape our views and how we respond and i think i think buzzes right beginning we won't be able to please or satisfy people in our answers because they won't know really where we're coming from but i think we have to by graciously the new testament because any true unity is built on a foundation of biblical truth and when truth the basic truth is compromised there's no real ability to cooperate without compromise you know it's interesting years ago my sister said to me if my sister is roman catholic and she said to me when billy graham was coming to the nasa coliseum on long island new york uh...

she said can you go with me to the billy graham crusade and i said to her i will go with you but i must tell you that my church does not participate in the billy graham crusade but i will go with you to answer any of your questions and she's asked me uh...

well why don't you participate and i said well one of the reasons is that the the counselors that volunteer to speak with people who are inquiring about how they can be right with god how they can receive eternal life those counselors are forbidden to recommend any specific church denomination or group and they're forbidden from forbidding certain churches denominations and groups and uh...

that to me is dangerous in my church has uh... an agreement with me that that is a dangerous practice in my catholic sister said i can understand that because i know that if people are being sent to the church where i am a member they're not going to learn anything she actually said that uh...

but uh... reverend buzz you know i want to try to to dress a little bit deeper than i did for uh...

is it is aaron aaron in indiapolis in india and i didn't realize that it's an acquired taste that's really not an answer right but i do believe that our our guests mark up mac thompson did answer that very early on because i i quoted him down here i'm not sure if it was in the exact quote you can correct me if i'm wrong but he said participation presumes approval that's right and now uh...

with with aaron now and i don't know although the uh... circumstances you know what kinds of things your your church is not participating or you yourself are not participating in uh...

whether it's catholic whether it's uh... you know i have no idea the extent of it and and you know there are so many different uh...

variables in in your question that would be to be addressed but in any one of those though uh...

those who are questioning you you have because of your non -participation an excellent opportunity to well if i say it uh...

it may be a teachable moment for them it gives you an opportunity to say hey look uh... you know well so -and -so speaking there and they don't agree with the trinity why do you or that thing do you do or don't you think the trinity is an important thing and you can explain you know you can use these as opportunities to teach these people to where uh...

well maybe they'll understand maybe they won't but you have to understand uh... there's no guarantees right well one of the things that i find myself always falling back on excuse me whenever these things arise uh...

especially with some of some of my moderate ecumenical catholic friends they get sometimes very angry with me because i refuse to identify them as my brethren in christ and i refuse to uh...

say that their gospel is a true gospel and i have to fall back on the church in galatia where paul had to rebuke them a church that he planted uh...

that had been seduced by the judyizers and the judyizers pastor mac perhaps you're more knowledgeable on them than i am but from what i understand the only thing that we know with certainty that the judyizers did was that they insisted that when a gentile became a christian he had to be circumcised from from what i understand from the scripture that was paul's only disagreement with them and it was paul's uh...

reason for actually did that one reason was paul's reason for identifying them as false teachers as their and and and i could find their gospel as a false gospel and no gospel at all and also said that anybody who brings that gospel should be accursed so from what we know the judyizers because paul doesn't say that they didn't believe in the dvd of christ paul does not say that they didn't believe in other biblical truths is virgin birth his bodily resurrection and all these other pillars of the faith the judyizers most likely agreed with those because paul doesn't mention them those other issues if paul rejected this group of people as having a false gospel and as being false teachers for that one issue that added to faith as the sole uh...

requirement of justification how are we to respond religions like the church of rome heaps upon many a lot more than that as a requirement and are we to be nicer than paul uh...

best direct when you say that a lot of people today are really even if they would never admit this they are saying that they are nicer and kinder and more loving than the apostle paul well i certainly couldn't improve on what you've just said it it's a marvelous point paul saw one specific area a departure of the gospel from the gospel a denial of the true gospel and that the people preaching that different gospel were not true brethren and could not be entertained so you're absolutely right and and uh...

i also reminds people that that doesn't mean i'd just like catholics now of course there are some catholics i'd just like there are some reform baptists i'd just like to pick up there are some reform people that i struggle not hating but uh...

but in fact there are catholics whose company i'd actually prefer over some born -again christians that i know uh...

that has nothing to do with the issue of liking or thinking that i'm better innately than them i don't i know catholics that put me to shame and of course other people not only just catholics but that have put me to shame in regard to the kind of husband i was uh...

put me to shame in regard to the kind of uh... child to parents uh...

brother to brothers and sisters members of their churches that they put me to shame in almost every era community activity responsibility as a citizen of all those things but that doesn't mean that i can embrace them as a brother if they do not have the gospel that i believe to be the gospel of jesus christ but even if we don't press you know uh...

i'm reminded years ago when in my fundamentalist days when uh...

i had a uh... i was working a secular job with another fellow who was a fundamentalist and uh...

uh... one of the guys that we work with asked him what is a fundamentalist and his answer was we hate catholics and i was embarrassed to to identify with you know that was a very moronic when we when we do confront people when we don't participate with them they need to understand it's it's it's an issue of the gospel it's not our personal feeling and of course you know that there are there are hard core fundamentalist even king james only fundamentalist that would never say something stupid like that well that's true well i was a fundamentalist at that time also i wouldn't have said anything like that right right there are fundamentalists who are very dear friends of mine who would love catholics to death uh...

but by an overpouring of graciousness and kindness to them but but they just have a very uh...

strong abhorrence to their false teachings but uh... uh...

do you have anything further pastor mack to add as far as what you would say are the core elements of things that need to be present before you can be recognized as a brother in christ i think the main thing that i would like to to address in a way and it's not quite that if i could take the liberty uh...

i have an increasing desire and burden to see true evangelical christians who are not of the same denomination or communion or doctrinal position to truly have an evangelical unity and show that i think you know in our day in america at least among the calvinistic circles there are increasingly grievous divisions and arguments over many some of them feel are very important point of uh...

technical theology when they let those differences cause them to alienate themselves from one another or reject fellowship with one another or publicly criticize one another then it's very grievous and i believe that the sin of schism against the body of christ there's never been a day among reformed christians when christian catholicity was truly needed and what do i mean by catholicity and chris you can interrupt me at any time and ask questions or whatever so just cut me off when you need to you know what it might be wise for me if this is going to be long because i want you to be as long as you want to be why don't i take my final station break right now and can you remember where you were where were you left off where were you going to start actually yes okay i will go to my break right now so i don't have to interrupt you midstream and this is going to be our final break of the day and if you'd like to join us our email address is chris arnzen at gmail dot com chris arnzen at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages

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charles lighter and michael dorham and if you'd like more details on this conference go to fellowship conference new england dot com fellowship conference new england dot com by the way uh...

folks you just heard an ad for world magazine if you ever hear any of the ads on iron sharpens iron and do not catch the websites for the contact information go to my website that you are likely listening to this radio uh...

show on and that is iron sharpens iron radio dot com iron sharpens iron radio dot com if you scroll to the bottom all of my sponsors display ads or banner ads are there and you can click on any of those ads and it will take you directly to the website of the sponsor itself so world magazine is there as well as in addition to all of my other sponsors so just remember that if you ever hear a website or contact information that you don't remember later on before the break pastor mac you were going to define catholicity because people get bent out of shape about that some of our more aggressively non -catholic or anti -catholic friends and brethren uh...

immediately have a a uh... knee -jerk reaction to that may go into dry heaves they don't understand what you're trying to say whenever the word catholic or catholicity comes up if you could explain that and then go into what you're going to discuss about the need of theologically reformed christians to break out of our own monasteries that we've created if you will well i i do think many reform christians perhaps can define what true catholicity should be what true unity should be but i don't think we often practice that enough uh...

catholicity it's simply the you know the protestant evangelical for years confessed that they were a part of the holy catholic church not not roman catholicism but rather the universal body of true believers all who were true regenerated followers of jesus christ so the word catholic in church history was an honored word meaning universal embracing all so the irony is the roman catholic church far from being truly catholic was in schism and division from true historic christianity because roman catholicism has always denied that whenever a person had saving faith in christ if they were outside the roman catholic church they denied that that person belongs to the body of christ and the family of god so catholicity truly understood is simply the feeling the viewpoint generated in true christians by the holy spirit of a readiness to love and embrace all who belong to jesus christ amen now while we should reject false ecumenical unity and we should reform christians today need to make sure that they are truly maintaining a loving catholicity toward all christians regardless of their denomination or their communion yes jc rall in the nineteenth century he said no doubt we all love unity but we must distinctly maintain that true unity can only be built upon god's truth we must not withhold our fellowship from any faithful brethren because they do not think exactly like us but we must understand who we try to have unity with rall says we cannot endorse or approve of the views of those who have no real love for christ's truth we cannot make people think we are in agreement with them when in reality we differ on the most basic of truths because that is the false unity we must turn away from so while that's true it seems to me that many sound christians today who are doctrinally theologically sound they're very slow to be gracious and loving and embracing of christians who don't agree with them and in fact go ahead no you go ahead i think that's a grievous mistake i think if i withdraw from christians who are true christians but are not of my theological persuasion and i treat them differently i'm cold toward them i'm not as quick to be willing to have fellowship with them and i'm guilty of the sin of schism i am treating some christians with more love than i am other christians and that's wrong and it's ironic that the very truths that we who are reformed claim to champion and are the pillars of all we believe and do those things those teachings are meant to humble us to dust and to exalt the glory and power and authority of god alone and yet we find ourselves and those in our midst so often being puffed up with pride and arrogance that is absolute oxymoron to be an arrogant reformed christianism it is it absolutely is let me uh...

hurry on to mention george wickfield in history was one of the greatest examples of having a catholic spirit uh...

it's told that in seventeen thirty seven he was criticized by a church of england clergy for having any kind of relationship with dissenters from the church of england and wickfield said he tried to help the presbyterians in england and get along with the anglicans and he said this i exhorted them meaning the presbyterians and the anglicans to have love and unity and not let a little difference about externals cause a narrow spiritedness to arise in their hearts i advised them to come and hear me preach which they did and providentially the message was on the fourth chapter of ephesians from which i took occasion to urge on them the necessity of loving one another with a catholic disinterested love and to be of one heart and one mind amen and uh...

i do have a question here that i want to get to from justin texas and i will get to that in a second but i want to say and get your opinion on this or your response to it i think one of the reasons that we should be aggressively pursuing fellowship and relationships and friendships with those brethren in christ who are from different uh...

theological perspectives different denominations brotherhoods associations fellowships is because we can often learn from them something that we may be blindsided to in our own fellowship i have truly come to appreciate things and learn from brethren who are charismatic pentecostal and members of other groups that are even doing things that are being done far less in the communities of reform christians and and i don't want a broad brush because my fellow reform brethren do have ministries in the inner cities reaching out to the the least of these among us of those who are the poorest and or even among the most outwardly evil those who are the prostitutes and the drug addicts and the drug dealers and all of these folks that a lot of the uh...

folks that have a more of an academic uh... focus in their christianity they don't want to get their white gloves dirty and you know go into these circles of society with the gospel where they seem to be dominated with charismatic in pentecostal churches at least when i was in new york that was the case and of course i don't want to exclude anybody that uh...

that was not pentecostal charismatic doing those things that just seems to be the dominant uh...

makeup of those doing that kind of thing that would you agree with what i'm saying that we can even if we think somebody is dead wrong in certain theological aspects we can still learn greatly from them because they may be doing things that we have uh...

a we have we are blindsided to them we are we are totally as these things are escaping our attention unintentionally perhaps exactly i do agree and i think a truly catholic spirit uh...

a christian that has a right heart toward all other christians they do believe that they can benefit from ministries and from other christians that they don't agree with one of the great things i appreciate about the scottish author ian murray is that he has a right view of appreciating men in history who were not even calvinist he wrote a book uh...

john westley and the men who followed and it's a wonderful book on the early methodist preachers how valuable their ministry was how courageous they were how zealous they were and how they preach the true gospel and so we will greatly uh...

lose out profitable things if we're too narrow and who we are open to receiving from and let me go to this uh...

question from john in justin texas it's really more of a statement than a question but there is some question involved in it john and justin texas says it's unnerving when tragedies lice like last week's killing of five dallas police officers it's so close to home it's even more unnerving when groups like black lives matter cast the shadow of racism over the country i'm sick with anger and barely controllable frustration when i hear our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims families and that love and compassion are the solutions what in god's name has happened to this country our hatred and political divide as a people and as a country our governmental corruption and total breakdown of our justice system our ideological gridlock our submission to secularism and political correctness why have we lost our way now that obviously john has supplied one month's worth of topics on iron sharpens iron but if you could respond i do think it is applicable in one way to our discussion at hand because we haven't addressed the racial barrier is in regard to biblical humanism i think it's something that's sorely lacking in many circles perhaps even especially reformed circles where we are from and my friend who is now in heaven uh...

dr robert j cameron a black orthodox presbyterian pastor wrote about that in a book the last few on the left where he addresses the issue of racism in the church not only the racism of white christians but of his fellow black christians and for that very reason that he criticized black christians along with white for the sin of racism a very major publisher who said it was the best manuscript that they ever received unsolicited would not publish it because he criticized black christians along with whites but if you could comment on what john has to say at least the best that you can because we only have fifteen minutes right well it's almost impossible to answer john's question adequately i won't be able to do it off the top of my head but it's very easy to look at the social and racial political climate and to define and clarify what is the problem and i think anyone will remain confused with that answer unless they look at something that's at a deeper level those things are only symptoms the outward fruit of man's deeper basic problem the reason societies fall apart and kill one another and are racist and cannot get along is because man is a sinner and societies are filled with sinners who sin and the only answer for that in any society is the gospel of jesus christ until men's hearts are changed they will not change until men's hearts are changed they cannot relate right to one another and i think there's another factor too which the world cannot acknowledge or doesn't even know that it's real and that is that there's a spiritual world and there are principalities and powers evil powers that are demonic in nature and they drive a lot of that men are inhabited who are not christians many people are controlled by demonic powers and when those go unfected and men give themselves over completely to sin then they go murder people or they shoot eleven people in downtown dallas or they drive a truck as they did in france yesterday into a crowd and kill eighty people the answer to this is sin in the human heart and the only answer for it is the grace and cleansing power of jesus christ and uh...

one of the reasons i think that it it touches on the lack of biblical ecumenism amongst those of different races is i think that sometimes you have spokesman in the media responding to things like this those who represent quote quote the black community those who represent quote quote white community et cetera the conservative white community whatever you want to describe it as it's really insane and disheartening that in the twenty first century that there is still not forced segregation amongst the body of christ in america but there is voluntary segregation and although most of our churches would never ban someone of a different race from entering in becoming a member there isn't there is little upon the part of many not all on the part of many there's a very little aggressive evangelism and outreach and friendship being done uh...

toward those from the different communities whose skin is different than ours and that goes as my friend as i was just saying robert cameron is now in heaven he said that was just as much of a problem amongst the black pastors and churches that he knew he he he said he would say that uh...

the black pastors and members of black churches would be more than happy if white people were to join their churches but they would never really as a part of an intentional effort go into white areas and and aggressively evangelize the lost and try to draw them into the their fellowship when they are saved and so on uh...

don't you think that the reason why we often discuss uh... things publicly and respond to these national tragedies or global tragedies when the different races are members of different races respond it's almost as if we're in different countries or universes and a lot of that has to do with the fact that the church is perhaps and has been in great sin and they're lacking of reaching out to those of other skin colors uh...

to be involved in biblical ecumenism i agree i do think there's a healthy growing wonderful thing happening in churches in america and reformed churches and that is they're getting ethnically properly mixed together yes because in christ there is neither jew nor gentile, bond nor free, male nor female or black or white or skin color and this is nothing to do with the quota system like uh...

we're just going to have conrad and bayway or vody balkum or uh...

eric redmond speak because they're black these men are absolutely some of the best speakers on the planet earth and they should be taking advantage of the fact that these are phenomenal gifted men and including them in the things that we do in our church here in denton we have blacks, we have hispanics we have uh...

whites and we have a wonderful loving fellowship and those things have never been an issue and they shouldn't be and they won't be when we're clear on the gospel and what the gospel really means chris could i take two or three minutes to finish my thoughts on this and i know our time is drawing to a close i want to give an encouragement on how christians who are reformed can develop cultivate and increase a catholic spirit toward all christians i think we ought to consciously see other believers if we're convinced that people are true christians we've got to see them first as christians and that will cause us to be able to develop love for them secondly we've got to try to avoid entering into secondary unimportant controversies that cause us to argue thirdly we need to cultivate a mindset of what the unity of heaven is going to be like because there will be no divisions in heaven and now we have to develop a loving unity for all christians because we're going to live with them forever fourthly we must seek closer fellowship with our savior the lord and savior jesus christ because the closer we are to him and the more we love him the more we'll love all christians now i want to give a test here and i would like for our listeners and all of us in their hearts to answer these questions do i have a charitable loving spirit toward believers that i don't agree with can i hear a sermon from someone i differ with and benefit from it and appreciate what is true in it do i read good authors who are not at my theological camp do i have a heart that can embrace and care about any true christian am i wrongly narrow and judgmental and do i have a condescending critical attitude toward those who are not in agreement with me do i ever have fellowship with or show appreciation for other believers outside my own communion or theological camp and three more do others know that i have a heart of love toward them if we don't agree do others see me loving people that i differ with and do those who differ with me when i'm with them do they feel loved by me do i show it and do i communicate it to them those are real tests hebrews thirteen says let brotherly love continue amen well that was phenomenal and uh...

i would like you to email me that list because i'd like to post it somewhere uh...

that was absolutely uh... must needed uh... greatly needed uh...

words to those especially in our own camp brother and uh...

let me uh... since we still have time for tyler's question in mastic beach long island new york do you think we as christians forget that all false religions worship satan just masqueraded in the disguise of their religions if you could see if you could comment on that tyler's question for message was that a question or a comment by our list uh...

it was a question because he said that do you think we as christians forget this that he was actually asserting it as it is a given fact that false religions worship satan maybe you disagree with that but uh...

he says do you think we as christians forget that all false religions worship satan that is just masqueraded in the disguise of their religions well i i think of the apostle paul's work through the ephesians uh...

uh... the spirit of satan and demonic powers energize not only the unregenerate world but are at work in all the sons of unbelief all the children of unbelief and i do believe satan counterfeits religions all the time all religions that are not of the christian faith are satanically invented and they are a counterfeit and a deception i don't think it means that anyone in other religions all overtly consciously worship satan no but they they're under a great delusion it is a demonic deception away from the truth amen and uh...

one of the things that uh... i think is very important in this whole matter is especially when we're talking about biblical ecumenism is that we are very often rejecting people whom christ included as the number among the number of those for whom he died now obviously an arminian is going to be listening to that in a different way because christ died for every single human being that ever lived or ever will live according to their understanding of the atonement but we as reformed christians we believe that god that christ died for a specific number of people all of his elect were amongst those whom receive the benefit of that death and are delivered from uh...

sin and death by that atoning sacrifice or that redemptive work and yet we are very often rejecting some of those very precious souls that he gave his life for and received the wrath of god upon himself for them could you comment on that well i would agree with you i think uh...

if i understand the question right we do have a reformed christians have a particular specific definite view of these things and we hold them very dearly because we believe they're come right out of the pages of scripture and yet we can do that very thing we can by our attitude our conduct by our somehow rejecting others uh...

we can respond wrongly and have a wrong application or response to the very truth that we hold dear so yeah i want to conclude our program today with the words of john wesley somebody who is on the other side of the theological spectrum than myself and my guest and my co -host but he in responding to george whitfield during a uh...

war of words that they were having uh... over the issue of the election and predestination being in sharp disagreement over that wesley wrote to john george whitfield my dear brother i thank you for yours made the twenty -fourth the case is quite there are bigots both for predestination and against it god is sending a message to those on either side but neither will receive it unless from one who is of their own opinion therefore for a time you are suffered to be of your of one opinion and i have another but when his time has come god will do what man cannot namely make us both of one mind then persecution will flame out it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves so that we may finish our course with joy i am my dearest brother every yours john wesley and i think that we could learn much from those words of john wesley and i hope that uh...

are listening audience which keeps in mind that very very important message from our dear brother long departed and now in heaven and i want you all to uh...