Did Moses really experience all those miracles?

Moses as the Great Old Testament Prophet and a Key Biblical Theme

Hello, hello, welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Kassim Blito and I'm your host. Today's topic that we have on the agenda is understanding Moses with Dr. Gary Yates. And I wanted to discuss this topic because life is just simply too astounding to look past.

I mean, the things that Moses saw and experienced as you read Genesis and as you read Exodus is incredible. And for me, rereading the Bible and starting at the beginning, there's just so many questions that I have that Moses experienced that I don't experience today.

So, Dr. Gary Yates, welcome back to the podcast. You were just on talking about prophecy and I'm so glad that you were like, oh, I know Moses. And so now here we are again. How are you today?

I'm doing great. It's great to be with you. Thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation we had about the prophets. So looking forward to talking about Moses. Yeah, Moses is the greatest Old Testament prophet of all.

Truly, truly. That is, yeah, that's something you can absolutely claim. How did you, like, tell me about what you know about Moses? Is this something that you focus on in your studies or is this something that you just recently started teaching?

No, my main focus with Moses has been developing how other figures in the Old Testament mirror Moses and Moses imagery and typology. I did my dissertation on the book of Jeremiah. So a major theme in the book of Jeremiah is that Jeremiah is a prophet like Moses and in ways that both sort of make him look like a failure, but also and ultimately in ways that promise things that are even greater than what God did in the days of Moses.

And so we see a lot of this Moses typology. It's in the book of Joshua, it's in the book of Judges. You have this in the book of Isaiah, the New Exodus and those types of things. And then really, I think Moses almost becomes sort of a paradigm for reading the whole Bible because this Moses typology carries over into the New Testament because Jesus is the ultimate prophet like Moses.

So we're almost talking about a theme that in many ways, I think, ties together the whole Bible. Truly.

And Moses is such a prominent figure that really does set the standard for all the other prophets. And then, like you said, like Jesus. But for me, it seems like he was just kind of another character that blended into the background.

Like, you know, we just simply don't focus on it enough in church. And as a Christian that, let's say, only goes to Bible study, only goes to church. When you talk about Moses, it's like sometimes if you want to talk about some of, you know, the parting of the Red Sea, but it's not like you have seen it in multiple other books and the way that it kind of sets the stage for Jesus.

But do you think we're just overlooking it or do you think we just don't understand Moses's life and the significance of it?

Well, part of it for a lot of us as Christians is that we associate Moses with the law. And we think that, you know, the Old Testament is about the law and works, whereas the New Testament is about grace and faith.

But actually, I think the way that law and grace and faith and works operate in the Old Covenant is very similar to the way that it operates in the New Covenant as well. So in John, it says the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But it's not saying that there was no grace with the law. It's just simply saying that with Jesus, that grace and truth comes in an even greater way. But Moses sees the grace of God in some pretty amazing ways as well.

Absolutely.

I like let's imagine that I'm somebody that all I've seen is like that Disney movie that just talks about the Prince of Egypt. And I just recently rewatched it of like Moses's life and going down the Nile and becoming, you know, a brother to Pharaoh and kind of like running off and finding Zipporah.

Like, do you feel like that was an accurate before we get into like the real accuracy of it? Do you feel like that depiction that Disney took is quite accurate or do you think it leaves out some major plot holes?

Well, I think the rivalry and ultimately the way that Moses chooses to associate with the people of God rather than the people of Egypt. Obviously, there are some Disney embellishments and all of that.

But I think I took my daughters to see that the first week it came out. They were really young and I was probably more excited than they were to get to go see that.

I just rewatched it and just the score for it is amazing. Just the music in it. And then the cast of like really nice, like A-list stars that are in the movie. Just phenomenal. Like Sandra Bullock, like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, well, I'm going all the way back to the Ten Commandments. And so I've got an even older perspective on Moses from that movie and everything. Absolutely.

Moses, Noah, and the Ark as a Pattern of Deliverance

Absolutely. Well, getting back to the facts and what his life actually looked like, his humble beginnings. I mean, can we kind of set the stage for why his mother put him in the basket, just so we fully understand why that even happened?

Like, why was there such a huge infanticide of the killing of all of these children happening that his mother felt the need to put Moses in a basket and float him down the Nile?

Yeah, we read in Exodus chapter one that the Pharaoh saw that Israel was becoming a great and numerous people, which actually was the promise that God had made to Abraham from the very beginning. Your people are going to be as numerous as the stars in the sky, the sand in the seashore.

But by the end of the book of Genesis, when Jacob goes down to Egypt, there's only 70 of them. So it seems like that must be a pretty cloudy night if that's the stars in the sky. But in chapter one, you know, Israel is becoming a great and numerous people, which is God's covenant promise.

The Pharaoh sees that as a threat and says, I'm going to try to stop this. And really, he's standing in the way of God's blessing of his people. The whole story of Moses's mother putting him in the basket.

And again, I think this illustrates some of the ways that the story of Moses connects to other parts of the Bible. The word there for basket, the only other place in the Hebrew Bible that word appears is talking about Noah's ark.

It's the word for ark. And so in the same way that you have Noah in an ark being spared, you know, in the water, you have Noah or Moses, in a sense, being put in a little ark and God is saving and delivering.

And this is the beginning of, you know, an even larger deliverance and redemption than what happens with Moses, with Noah and his family. So forgive me if I talk about Moses in the ark. And those are, that's the beginning of some of these kind of narrative parallelisms and typologies that we begin to see with Moses.

But yeah, that's what's going on there in that opening story. Oh my gosh.

Whoa, that wasn't even, I didn't even think about that. I mean, I was getting so caught up in the logistics of like, was that a common thing that like women back then as Hebrews were doing? They were just like, gotta save my son, put him in the basket and see what happens.

I think it's just God superintending all of that. And it's really an act of desperation in light of the way that the Hebrew baby boys were being put to death. But I think that connection is emphasizing, hey, God's doing his work of redemption here and his work of salvation.

And the deliverance of Moses will ultimately lead to an even greater deliverance for the people of Israel. And that's, this is the beginning of what's happening there. Absolutely.

The Burning Bush as a Theophany and the Meaning of Fire

So moving forward in Moses' life, he grows up with the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh's son, and he kind of grows up in royalty. But then once he does kind of cast himself out because of, you know, murdering somebody, he encounters a burning bush.

I mean, I'm paraphrasing heavily at this point, but that burning bush, are we to understand that as like a real miracle, like something that's supernatural or a metaphor or like a vision?

Yeah, it's a real way that God is revealing himself. And sometimes, you know, in the Hebrew Bible, we have kind of an invisible Yahweh who is speaking from heaven and those kinds of things. But you also have places where we have a visible manifestation of the Lord and the Lord's presence.

And I think that's what we have here with the burning bush, that this is a genuine, you know, theophany experience of God's presence. And we often see this when God is calling a prophet or a deliverer or a messenger.

There's often a way that God reveals himself so that they see the power and the greatness of the God that will be with them to enable them to do this. So, you know, Isaiah sees a vision of God in the temple seated on the throne high and lifted up and doesn't really see much more than the bottom part of his robe.

But the presence of God is often associated with fire and these types of things. And you have a supernatural, this bush is burning, but is not consumed. And it's holy ground because the presence of God is there.

Is there any clarification that we need to make? Because to me, I would only associate fire with like hell and Satan because of like the fiery pits. But here, like God also shows up. Is that a limiting mindset that I have by only associating that with like evil?

Yeah, I think sometimes the idea of fire is just the awesome presence, the burning. I mean, the glory of God in the Old Testament, the kavod, is often associated with a bright light. So I think just the luminous presence of God.

But fire also has the idea of purging and something that's holy and a cleansing and those types of things. And then other times fire has the idea of consuming and the idea of more of judgment would be something that comes out of that.

Okay, got it. Yeah, I definitely think I just like put it in the box of anything on fire is going to go with hell and anything that's like light and fluffy and easy is heaven. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like with Ezekiel, when he sees, you know, and again, another vision that we're talking about, he sees God on this portable throne. And the presence of God there is a glowing, burning presence.

And you kind of see this association with the presence of God and fire throughout the Hebrew Bible. Yes.

Oh my gosh, Ezekiel. I was just doing a live the other day and everyone's like, we should read Ezekiel. And they're like, it's UFOs. And I'm like, I don't think this is UFOs. It's not.

Yeah, it's not UFOs. And when you see the, you know, the ancient Near Eastern background of that, it's the Lord is a mighty warrior appearing to both judge and to ultimately save his people. But, you know, a very terrifying presence.

And I think the fire adds to kind of the terrifying nature of when God appears. And, you know, we get a sense of that with Moses as well, for sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

Miracles as Signs of New Salvation and Divine Authentication

Okay, getting back on track with Moses, the miracles, this is something like, how should we approach miracles as a whole? Because I feel like that's a pretty complicated topic of like, why don't we see miracles?

How do they work? Like, is it only based on the presence of faith? Like, before we get into like, all of the miracles that Moses encountered, how should we approach miracles as a whole in the Bible?

Well, I think that miracles are often a way of God demonstrating that he's at work, you know, not just in a validating way, but it's validating that this person is truly a representative of God and those types of things.

But miraculous works are often associated with God's salvation and God's deliverance. And I think that's why you have a really heavy concentration of miracles. You know, in the Old Testament, primarily, it's around the time of Moses, and then later around the time of Elijah, when God is doing something new, when God is authenticating a messenger or God is moving salvation history forward, it seems like with, you know, you have the miracles with Moses later with Elijah.

And then again, that carries over to God is doing something new with Jesus and validating and authenticating that. We don't always see prophets in the Old Testament performing miracles. So I think it usually indicates God's doing something new.

This is a special messenger on a mission from God, and we need to listen and pay attention to what God's up to in these cases.

Wow, I wish God would do something new, so public today and like experience more miracles today. Or is that so ignorant of me to say like God's performing miracles every day? I just like they're not happening right in front of me.

Right. I think, you know, today, I think we see more miraculous things done more in answers to prayer and those types of things. But God's still doing the supernatural. He's still healing. He's still revealing himself to people that need to know him.

But yeah, definitely, I think maybe a little differently than what we see in the time of Moses or the New Testament era with the apostles and that type of thing.

Yeah, very different. I mean, I have a couple examples of the miracles that like when I was reading through Exodus, I was like, how did this work? How did this work? How did this work? Like which one of these are symbolic?

Like right away, Exodus four, six, the hand becoming leprous when God is talking with Moses and he's like, put your hand in your cloak, pull it out and it's leprous. Put it back in and it's fully healed.

I think that to me, it reminds me of a testimony that I had with the messianic rabbi. And he's like, in his testimony, he was looking in a mirror and God revealed like his skin decaying. Like he was like, it was a vision from the Lord of like my skin falling off.

And it was like God has dominion over our like physical bodies. And I think we, we don't understand how, what that control can look like is that God can change the condition of our skin in an instant and then he can restore it back to health.

Am I following the right way or is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah, well, and I think Moses himself at the very beginning needs to be convinced that God is truly calling him and at work. And so the miraculous appearance with the burning bush, what you mentioned with the leprosy and all of those things at the beginning are there primarily to validate what God's doing for him.

Moses himself needs that before he can go and try to convince the people that he's God's messenger as well.

Yeah. I would imagine I would need some convincing too that God's really got my back in this most supernatural way. If he's like, you're going to lead some people and he's like, I don't know. And he's like, really?

Take your hand out.

Take your hand out of your coat. Go confront the most powerful man in the world right now and tell him that, you know, God said to let his people go. I mean, yeah, I want to know that some type of supernatural presence is there.

Okay. Yeah.

I mean, that makes a lot of sense. But even like the rod becoming a snake, I like, again, this is like Bible, this is Sunday school mentality of like, when I think of the prince of Egypt, when Moses goes up to the Pharaoh and he's like, look, my rod just became a snake.

I'm dealing with the almighty God. You need to believe what I'm saying. He's using this kind of as like leverage. I know that's not really what happens in the Bible, but like, if I'm understanding it from like the Disney version, the Pharisee has his like, his like magicians who are like, I can also replicate that.

I can, there's charlatans that can also replicate that. What can you say when it comes to like God kind of defying a rod into a snake? Is that more again, like where's the symbolism versus like the reality of God transforming objects into animals?

Yeah, well, I think, again, when we talk about validating and authenticating, now the miracle is creating a message for the Pharaoh. And the significance that I think is attached with the snakes there is that the Pharaoh, the symbol of the Pharaoh's power is the cobra, the uraeus, a snake.

And often if you see the headdress of the Pharaoh from the Old Testament era, he has a, he has a snake on there. So I think what's going on there is that most of the miracle is conveying the King that Moses represents is more powerful than the King that he's opposing and standing against.

And the Pharaoh, you know, when Moses says, Hey, Yahweh says, let my people go. What do I care that the God of a bunch of slaves is saying, you know, that I should do this. But that snake, it's really kind of the most, it's the first power lunch in history because the power that's behind Moses is greater than the authority and power and kingship of the Pharaoh himself.

And I think that's the significance of what's going on there with the snake miracle in the Egyptian. But yeah, those magicians have legitimate spiritual power to do those kinds of things. And I think there's demonic power and powers of darkness that are with the Pharaoh and the Egyptian gods.

And the Lord's going to take all of those things on. And Pharaoh eventually will lose very badly as God demonstrates his power.

The Plagues as Judgments on Egypt's Gods and the Firstborn Son

Yeah, a hundred percent. I just had a conversation last week about polytheistic gods with another PhD. And he is essentially saying like the plagues that God specifically sent to Pharaoh represent power over the gods, like power over water turning into blood, over the frogs, over the locusts, over these things that like these polytheistic gods were gods of, you know, they were like frog, like animal, you know, these like water gods, God showed that he had power over them.

So they were very specific types of plagues that were directly hitting on the things that Pharaoh thought he was the king of.

Yeah, it seems like, and commentators will do this, they'll develop how each one of the plagues somehow is related to. So, you know, you have an Egyptian god that protects the Nile. Well, the Nile turns into blood.

The sun god is a major deity among the Egyptians. So there's darkness over the land. And they believed that the Pharaoh was, you know, the son of God, God incarnate. So the death of Pharaoh's firstborn son is a challenge to that idea as well.

And so in some way, at least with the majority of these plagues, they can be attached in some way to a specific deity or maybe specific theological beliefs that the Egyptians had.

Whoa, oh my gosh, the symbolism, the foreshadowing. Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about the firstborn son.

Well, and you know, the frogs that are associated with reproduction. Well, it's like, okay, you like reproduction, I'm going to fill the land with frogs and those types of things. You know, again, God is demonstrating his power over the gods of Egypt.

You know, again, we start thinking about how the Bible cycles back to these types of things, the judgments that are found in the book of Revelation are often very similar to the plagues that God brought on the Egyptians.

So now as God is judging the whole world and preparing for his kingdom, the judgments there kind of take us back to the plagues that we see with Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

The Pillar of Fire, Wilderness Failure, and the Need for Faith

Yeah, it really does link all together. Okay, I'm going to go for, you know, the big one, the cloud of fire. The cloud of fire is insane when he's leading people out of Egypt and he's guiding them with a like pillar of fire and then a light, a pillar of light.

I'm so sorry if you can hear those sirens. Like I live right next to a fire station. Um, I can't even fathom having like a pillar of fire guiding me through the night and then like a, like a pillar of a cloud.

Like, why don't, why don't we get that? I want to see that. Or do you feel like we do?

It's just like the old Testament version. Well, uh, we, we have the Holy Spirit to give us a direction and guidance and, uh, we're not, we're not journeying through a wilderness going to a specific destination and that type of thing.

But, um, you know, and that, that's, that's what makes Israel's failures in the wilderness all the more significant when, when they leave Mount Sinai, maybe, maybe I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, but they've, they've been at Mount Sinai for 11, 11 months.

You know, they've been there. They've been in the presence of God. They've seen the glory and the greatness of God. And they, they set out and we think, yeah, they, they, they have every reason to be successful.

God is, is with them. They have a divine GPS. That's going to take them everywhere. They're supposed to go. They have, the Lord teaches the priest how to bless his people. The Lord bless you and keep you.

So they have that. Um, they have the Ark of the Covenant and God is the one leading them out into battle against their enemies. It's like, how could you fail? God has given you everything that you could possibly, uh, need to make a successful journey and be in the promised land in a few weeks.

And they end up roaming around for 40 years. Um, and I think that just, and really they rebel against God when they leave Mount Sinai three days after they leave, after they've been in the presence of God, it's like God gave them everything that they could possibly need or want.

And you know, sin and rebellion leads to, uh, leads to the failure and the first generation, not even getting to go into the whole.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you think like them coming out of Egypt with all of their polytheistic gods, like the gods that they were relying on, that they were comfortable with, they immediately kind of have to, um, like cleave away into a new God that they are unfamiliar with that is doing these super, super natural things.

And God's like, see the pillar of fire, see the rod of the snake. See the, you know, the parting of the sea. Like I am the God. And they're like, yeah, but I still just met you. And like, I don't know, I've got like a pretty good history, like a pretty good track record with my other polytheistic pagan gods.

So like, I'm going to cleave to my golden calf that like definitely helps me sleep at night. Like I sympathize for them because don't we do the same thing? Like as much as God's like, I'm good. I provided you life.

I fed you here. We are like, but like, I feel safer when I scroll TikTok than when I worship you. So I'm going to do that God instead of this God.

Yeah. It's always easier to have a God, first of all, that you maybe have past experiences with. And, and we know that, um, you know, the prophet Ezekiel says that Ezekiel chapter 20, that Israel, they've been idol worshipers from the very beginning.

So they were worshiping the gods of Egypt. And I think partly, you know, what God is doing often with the Israelite is that he's weaning them away from, uh, the beliefs that they've had and, and their Egyptian way of looking at life and all of those kinds of things.

Even, uh, what Moses teaches us in the creation story about humanity being created in the image of God, uh, is somewhat of a polemic against Egyptian theology. They believe that the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh, the first, you know, the Pharaohs, they're, they're the image of God.

They're the representation of God. The Bible democratizes that says we're all Kings and, uh, you know, we're not slaves. We're ruling as God's co-regions and just the value of humanity and the value of human life that emerges from that.

But, but Moses is correcting the false beliefs that they've learned in Egypt. And so, yeah, that's a, that's a big part of what has to happen here. Again, partly why I think that God is, is moving in these miraculous ways.

After the Exodus in Exodus 14, there's this really important statement. It says when the Israelites saw this, they put their trust in the Lord and in Moses, his servant, but they needed to see that before they could be convinced to, to really, truly trust.

And they're going to constantly, constantly waver in that again, because of that tendency we have as humans to do that.

Like, I think it is a little hypocritical of us to look at these Jews and say like, what, why, why did you keep going back to your pagan gods? Why did it, why did you keep going back? You were just so sinful.

Like, you know, this was so unnecessary, but it's like, they just came out of a belief system that like, God like had to kind of compensate with like, I'm going to bring out the whole row of miracles that I could possibly pull out.

And cause you guys, I've really got to break your brain to like rewire and like focus on me. And we're like, didn't you see God once you should be a diehard believer. It's like, well, are we diehard believers?

And we like have the written book of all of this. We have like the account of this and we still aren't diehard believers.

And we, you know, we go back to our sinful ways and practices and, uh, the Israelites keep saying, ah, we wish, we wish we could just go back to the way it was when we were in Egypt. And we had, you know, such good food and everything.

Rather be a slave. Yeah. Like, no, it was not good, but it was, uh, it was what they knew. It was comfortable. It was safe. And, you know, the difference between faith and we have to, we have to trust in things we can't see.

And I think that was one of the things that was especially hard for Israel is like these other people have visible representations of their gods. And, uh, you know, we, we serve an invisible God that, that, that takes a lot of faith to believe in and accept that.

The Exodus as the Central Act of Salvation and a New Exodus

Some of the other miracles, just because again, like I was going through Exodus and I was like, how does this work? How does this work? This work is the, um, the splitting of the sea. I mean, that just is like the climax of the movie.

I mean, everybody just knows like Noah and the flood of Moses and the splitting of the seas. Like it is kind of this like coincidental, like quintessential, sorry. Um, part of the story, but is there more to it that we miss when we read it?

Because we get so caught up in the theatrics of him splitting the sea.

Um, I, I, I think the thing that I would say, um, is, is theologically the most important thing about the Exodus is the Exodus is the, it's like the central act of salvation in the old Testament. So in the same way that you have the cross and the resurrection of Jesus in the new Testament, the Exodus is that, is that primary act of redemption that God performs in the old Testament.

So beyond the miracle and the wind and the way that God, you know, saves the Israelites and then brings the water back down on the Egyptians, um, that, that act becomes, uh, the way that God will save and deliver his people in the future.

And so every year they would remember what God did at Passover. And then, you know, the future acts of salvation that God does in the old Testament are, are viewed as being like a new Exodus. So, so when we fast forward to, to Joshua and the conquest, what, what's the first thing that happens before Joshua takes the land?

They cross the Jordan river. And when they, you know, the priest step into the, to the river with the ark, the water split. And, and it's like, well, God did that once. Why doesn't he come up with something new?

Uh, well, you know, they're not looking for special effects here. This is saying the power of God that brought the people of Egypt is also the power of God. That's with, uh, Joshua, uh, as they're taking the land.

And again, salvation history is moving forward. Um, and then when the people go into, when the people go into captivity later, when they go to Babylon, um, the prophet Isaiah and other prophets will say, when God brings the people back from the captivity, this will be like a second Exodus.

And there's probably at least, um, there's at least a couple dozen passages in the book of Isaiah where God's talking about dividing the waters and, and overcoming the sea and leading the people. And when you go through the waters, I will be with you and they will not harm you.

And it's like, why is he talking about this? They're not going to have to cross any waters when they go home from Babylon. But the deliverance from Babylon is a new Exodus. And so the imagery of going through the sea and crossing the sea and all that, and, and Jeremiah says, this new Exodus is going to be so great, Jeremiah 16, 14, and 15, that they won't even really talk about the old Exodus anymore.

What God is doing in the future is going to be an even greater act of deliverance. So I think that's the, that's the, to look maybe a little bit more at just the theological significance of them crossing the sea.

And that's, this becomes the paradigm for how God delivers in the rest of, um, in the rest of Old Testament history.

Wow. I love that. It is like, kind of like what you said, like, it's like, ah, don't you have any more tricks, God? But it is just like the same power that we saw in Moses splitting the waters we see later and him showing up again.

Like it doesn't diminish, it shows up again. Like what a powerful moment that is in the Exodus that like other prophets get to experience it. Okay. Moving forward. Cause I have so much more that I want to talk to you about.

Just one little quickie. I want to clarify with you. Cause I saw this and I'm like, gosh, there must be more to this. Cause I'm like, I don't know what this is, but when it's in Exodus 16, there's the manna and the quail from heaven that they're like, what are we going to eat?

And he's like, I'm going to send little frosted flakes down from the heavens every morning and you collect everything that you need, but don't let it last until tomorrow morning. If you do like throw it out, is this supposed to be some sort of lesson on don't store up or why does he specify that?

With the manna and remember they could keep it for two days on the Sabbath because it just emphasizes, I think that they're going to have to trust God to provide for them every day. You can't go to the manna store on Monday and you know, it's going to last for the rest of the week.

It was a daily provision. And again, it's, they're going to have to trust God that daily he will do this. And at the beginning I think they're, they are kind of wondering that. And so, yeah, let's, let's get as much of this as we can.

And when they wake up the next day, it's spoiled because God's going to provide this, you know, every day.

He's really like breaking them into submission of like, you're not going to have food. Like I will give you food each day. Yeah. Yeah.

Give us this day. Our daily bread is kind of, and it is, it will be a daily thing where, and you know, you look at the wilderness where Israel was at. There are no, you know, Safeways or food lions or Kroger's or anything like, I mean, they are in a barren, desolate place and, and God is the only one who can provide for them.

And I think the daily lesson of the manna, just, you know, they learn that really quickly and food and water become, you know, they're the, they're the, the primary tests for the people that that's what they're again, three days after the exodus, they've seen God divide the sea three days later, like, what are we going to eat?

Or what are we going to drink? Same thing when they leave Sinai three days later, they're complaining, we don't have any food. And so this was going to be a major way of trusting God. Yeah.

Wow. What a personal application. I'm just thinking like how, where I'm at in my life, like thinking of like, well, you're in a desert and every day God will give you the food for that day. And then tomorrow you'll have to go right back to him and ask again, because it's only going to come from him.

Like, whoa, you just like gave me a whole sermon in my head. So thank you. Moving on.

There's another thing that kind of stood out. Maybe we see that more kind of just with the way that God spiritually sustains us on a daily basis. You know, we have food in our refrigerator, money in our bank account, but definitely when we think about God just spiritually sustaining us, that, that lesson probably becomes a little more clear to us.

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. If we look at, what was it? Exodus 13, 14. It basically is, it's a positive light, but it's saying like, we're going to, I think it was circumcision, but it was like, I want you to do this because it's going to like be a sign on your forehead.