Did Moses really experience all those miracles?

Biblically Speaking

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Hello, hello, welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Kassim Blito and I'm your host. Today's topic that we have on the agenda is understanding

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Moses with Dr. Gary Yates. And I wanted to discuss this topic because life is just simply too astounding to look past.

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I mean, the things that Moses saw and experienced as you read Genesis and as you read Exodus is incredible.

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And for me, rereading the Bible and starting at the beginning, there's just so many questions that I have that Moses experienced that I don't experience today.

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So, Dr. Gary Yates, welcome back to the podcast. You were just on talking about prophecy and I'm so glad that you were like, oh,

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I know Moses. And so now here we are again. How are you today? I'm doing great. It's great to be with you.

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Thanks for inviting me back. Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation we had about the prophets.

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So looking forward to talking about Moses. Yeah, Moses is the greatest

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Old Testament prophet of all. Truly, truly. That is, yeah, that's something you can absolutely claim.

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How did you, like, tell me about what you know about Moses? Is this something that you focus on in your studies or is this something that you just recently started teaching?

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No, my main focus with Moses has been developing how other figures in the

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Old Testament mirror Moses and Moses imagery and typology. I did my dissertation on the book of Jeremiah.

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So a major, a major theme in the book of Jeremiah is that Jeremiah is a prophet like Moses and in ways that both sort of make him look like a failure, but also and ultimately in ways that promise things that are even greater than what

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God did in the days of Moses. And so we see a lot of this Moses typology.

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It's in the book of Joshua, it's in the book of Judges. You have this in the book of Isaiah, the

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New Exodus and those types of things. And then really, I think Moses almost becomes sort of a paradigm for reading the whole

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Bible because this Moses typology carries over into the New Testament because Jesus is the ultimate prophet like Moses.

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So we're almost talking about a theme that in many ways, I think, ties together the whole Bible. Truly. And Moses is such a prominent figure that really does set the standard for all the other prophets and then, like you said, like Jesus.

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But for me, it seems like he was just kind of another character that blended into the into the background.

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Like, you know, we just simply don't focus on it enough in church. And as a Christian that, let's say, only goes to Bible study, only goes to church, when you talk about Moses, it's like sometimes if you want to talk about some of the parting of the

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Red Sea, but it's like you have seen it in multiple other books and the way that it kind of sets the stage for Jesus.

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But do you think we're just overlooking it or do you think we just don't understand Moses's life and the significance of it?

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Well, part of it for a lot of us as Christians is that we associate Moses with the law.

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And we think that, you know, the Old Testament is about the law, the law and works, whereas the

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New Testament is about grace and faith. But actually, I think the way that law and grace and faith and works operate in the

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Old Covenant is very similar to the way that it operates in the New Covenant as well. So in John, it says the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by by Jesus Christ.

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But it's not saying that there was no grace with the law. It's just simply saying that with Jesus, that grace and truth comes in an even greater way.

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But Moses, Moses sees the grace of God in some pretty amazing ways as well. Absolutely.

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I like let's imagine that I'm somebody that all I've seen is like that Disney movie that just talks about the prince of Egypt.

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And I just recently rewatched it of like Moses's life and going down the Nile and becoming a brother to Pharaoh and kind of like running off and finding

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Zipporah. Like, do you feel like that was an accurate before we get into like the real accuracy of it?

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Do you feel like that depiction that Disney took is quite accurate or do you think it leaves out some major plot holes?

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Well, I think they the rivalry and ultimately the way that Moses chooses to associate with the people of God rather than the people of Egypt.

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Obviously, there are some Disney embellishments and all of that. But I think

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I took my I took my daughters to see that the first week it came out. They were really young and I was probably more excited than they were to get to go see that.

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I just rewatched it and just the the score for it is amazing. Just the music in it.

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And then the cast of like really nice, like A -list stars that are in the movie. Just phenomenal. Like Sandra Bullock.

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Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, well, I'm going all the way back to the

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Ten Commandments. And so I've got an even older perspective on Moses from from that movie and everything.

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Absolutely, absolutely. Well, getting back to the facts and what his life actually looked like, his humble beginnings,

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I mean, can we kind of set the stage for why his mother put him in the basket just so we like fully understand why that even happened?

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Like, why was there such a huge infanticide like of the killing of all of these children happening that his mother felt the need to put

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Moses in a basket and float him down the Nile? Yeah, we read in in Exodus chapter one that the

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Pharaoh saw that that Israel was becoming a great and numerous people, which actually was the promise that God had made to to Abraham from the very beginning.

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Your people are going to be as numerous as the stars in the sky, the sand in the seashore. But by the end of the book of Genesis, when

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Jacob goes down to Egypt, there's only 70 of them. So it seems like that must be a pretty cloudy night if that's the stars in the sky.

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But in chapter one, you know, Israel is becoming a great and numerous people, which is

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God's covenant promise. The Pharaoh sees that as a threat and says,

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I'm going to try to stop this. And really, he's standing in the way of God's blessing of his people. The whole story of Moses's mother putting him in the basket.

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And again, I think this illustrates some of the ways that the story of Moses connects to other parts of the Bible, that the word there for basket, the only other place in the

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Hebrew Bible that word appears is talking about Noah's ark. It's the word for ark. And so in the same way that you have

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Noah in an ark being spared, you know, in the water, you have Noah or Moses, in a sense, being put in a little ark and God is saving and delivering.

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And this is the beginning of, you know, an even larger deliverance and redemption than what happens with Noah and his family.

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So forgive me if I talk about Moses in the ark. And those are, that's the beginning of some of these kind of narrative parallelisms and typologies that we begin to see with Moses.

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But yeah, that's what's going on there in that opening story. Oh my gosh. Whoa, that wasn't even,

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I didn't even think about that. I mean, I was getting so caught up in the logistics of like, was that a common thing that like women back then as Hebrews were doing?

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They were just like, gotta save my son, put him in the basket and see what happens. I think it's just God superintending all of that.

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And it's really an act of desperation in light of the way that the Hebrew baby boys were being put to death.

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But I think that connection is emphasizing, hey, God's doing his work of redemption here and his work of salvation.

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And the deliverance of Moses will ultimately lead to an even greater deliverance for the people of Israel. And that's, this is the beginning of what's happening there.

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Absolutely. So moving forward in Moses' life, he grows up with the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh's son, and he kind of grows up in royalty.

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But then once he does kind of cast himself out because of, you know, murdering somebody, he encounters a burning bush.

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I mean, I'm paraphrasing heavily at this point, but that burning bush, are we to understand that as like a real miracle, like something that's supernatural or a metaphor or like a vision?

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Yeah, it's a real way that God is revealing himself. And sometimes, you know, in the

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Hebrew Bible, we have kind of an invisible Yahweh who is speaking from heaven and those kinds of things.

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But you also have places where we have a visible manifestation of the Lord and the

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Lord's presence. And I think that's what we have here with the burning bush, that this is a genuine, you know, theophany experience of God's presence.

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And we often see this when God is calling a prophet or a deliverer or a messenger.

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There's often a way that God reveals himself so that they see the power and the greatness of the

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God that will be with them to enable them to do this. So, you know, Isaiah sees a vision of God in the temple seated on the throne high and lifted up and doesn't really see much more than the bottom part of his robe.

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But the presence of God is often associated with fire and these types of things. And you have a supernatural, this bush is burning, but is not consumed.

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And it's holy ground because the presence of God is there. Is there any clarification that we need to make?

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Because to me, I would only associate fire with like hell and Satan because of like the fiery pits.

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But here, like God also shows up. Is that a limiting mindset that I have by only associating that with like evil?

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Yeah, I think sometimes the idea of fire is just the awesome presence, the burning.

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I mean, the glory of God in the Old Testament, the kavod is often associated with a bright light.

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So I think just the luminous presence of God. But fire also has the idea of purging and something that's holy and a cleansing and those types of things.

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And then other times fire has the idea of consuming and the idea of more of judgment would be something that comes out of that.

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Oh, I got it. Yeah, I definitely think I just like put it in the box of anything on fire is going to go with hell and anything that's like light and fluffy and easy is heaven.

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I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like with Ezekiel, when he sees, you know, and again, another vision that we're talking about, he sees

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God on this portable throne and it's the presence of God. There is a glowing, burning presence.

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And you kind of see this association with the presence of God and fire throughout the Hebrew Bible. Yes.

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Oh my gosh, Ezekiel. I was just doing a live the other day and everyone's like, we should read Ezekiel. And they're like, it's UFOs.

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And I'm like, I don't think this is UFOs. It's not. Yeah, it's not UFOs. And when you see the, you know, the ancient

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Near Eastern background of that, it's the Lord is a mighty warrior appearing to both judge and to ultimately save his people.

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But, you know, a very terrifying presence. And I think the fire adds to kind of the terrifying nature of when

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God appears. And, you know, we get a sense of that with Moses as well, for sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, getting back on track with Moses, the miracles.

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This is something like, how should we approach miracles as a whole? Because I feel like that's a pretty complicated topic of like, why don't we see miracles?

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How do they work? Like, is it only based on the presence of faith? Like, before we get into like all of the miracles that Moses encountered, how should we approach miracles as a whole in the

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Bible? Well, I think that miracles are often a way of God demonstrating that he's at work, you know, not just in a validating way, but it's validating that this person is truly a representative of God and those types of things.

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But miraculous works are often associated with God's salvation and God's deliverance. And I think that's why you have a really heavy concentration of miracles.

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You know, in the Old Testament, primarily, it's around the time of Moses and then later around the time of Elijah.

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When God is doing something new, when God is authenticating a messenger or God is moving salvation history forward, it seems like with, you know, you have the miracles with Moses, later with Elijah.

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And then again, that carries over to God is doing something new with Jesus and validating and authenticating that.

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We don't always see prophets in the Old Testament performing miracles. So I think it usually indicates

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God's doing something new. This is a special messenger on a mission from God, and we need to listen and pay attention to what

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God's up to in these cases. Wow. I wish God would do something new, so public today and like experience more miracles today.

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Or is that so ignorant of me to say like God's performing miracles every day? I just like they're not happening right in front of me.

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Right. I think, you know, today, I think we see more miraculous things done more in answers to prayer and those types of things.

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But God's still doing the supernatural. He's still healing. He's still revealing himself to people that need to know him.

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But yeah, definitely, I think maybe a little differently than what we see in the time of Moses or the

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New Testament era with the apostles and that type of thing. Yeah, very different. I mean, I have a couple examples of the miracles that like when

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I was reading through Exodus, I was like, how did this work? How did this work? How did this work? Like which one of these are symbolic?

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Like right away, Exodus four, six, the hand becoming leprous when God is talking with Moses and he's like, put your hand in your cloak, pull it out and it's leprous.

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Put it back in and it's fully healed. I think that to me, it reminds me of a testimony that I had with the messianic rabbi.

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And he's like, in his testimony, he was looking in a mirror and God revealed like his skin decaying.

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Like he was like, it was a vision from the Lord of like my skin falling off. And it was like God has dominion over our like physical bodies.

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And I think we, we don't understand how, what that control can look like is that God can change the condition of our skin in an instant.

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And then he can restore it back to health. Am I following the right way or is there something I'm missing here?

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Well, and I think Moses himself at the very beginning needs to be convinced that God is truly calling him and at work.

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And so the miraculous appearance with the burning bush, what you mentioned with the leprosy and all of those things at the beginning are there primarily to validate what

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God's doing for him. Moses himself needs that before he can go and try to convince the people that he's

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God's messenger as well. Yeah. I would imagine I would need some convincing too that God's really got my back in this most supernatural way.

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If he's like, you're going to lead some people and he's like, I don't know. And he's like, really? Take your hand out. Take your hand out of your coat.

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Go confront the most powerful man in the world right now and tell him that, you know, God said to let his people go.

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I mean, yeah. I want to know that some type of supernatural presence is there. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

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But even like the rod becoming a snake, I like, again, this is like Bible, this is Sunday school mentality of like, when

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I think of the Prince of Egypt, when Moses goes up to the Pharaoh and he's like, look, my rod just became a snake.

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I'm dealing with the almighty God. You need to believe what I'm saying. He's using this kind of as like leverage. I know that's not really what happens in the

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Bible, but like, if I'm understanding it from like the Disney version, the Pharisee has his like, his like magicians who are like,

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I can also replicate that. I can, there's charlatans that can also replicate that. What can you say when it comes to like God kind of defying a rod into a snake?

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Is that more again, like where's the symbolism versus like the reality of God transforming objects into animals?

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Yeah, well, I think, again, when we talk about validating and authenticating now, the miracle is creating a message for the

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Pharaoh. And the significance that I think is attached with the snakes there is that the

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Pharaoh, the symbol of the Pharaoh's power is the cobra, the uraeus, a snake. And often if you see the headdress of the

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Pharaoh from the Old Testament era, he has a, he has a snake on there. So I think what's going on there is that most of the miracle is conveying the king that Moses represents is more powerful than the king that he's opposing and standing against.

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And the Pharaoh, you know, when Moses says, hey, Yahweh says, let my people go. What do I care that the

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God of a bunch of slaves is saying, you know, that I should do this? But that snake, it's really kind of the most, it's the first power lunch in history because the power that's behind Moses is greater than the authority and power and kingship of the

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Pharaoh himself. And I think that's the significance of what's going on there with the snake miracle in the

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Egyptian. But yeah, those magicians have legitimate spiritual power to do those kinds of things.

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And I think there's demonic power and powers of darkness that are with the Pharaoh and the

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Egyptian gods. And the Lord's going to take all of those things on. And Pharaoh eventually will lose very badly as God demonstrates his power.

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Yeah, a hundred percent. I just had a conversation last week about polytheistic gods with another

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PhD. And he is essentially saying like the plagues that God specifically sent to Pharaoh represent power over the gods, like power over water turning into blood, over the frogs, over the locusts, over these things that like these polytheistic gods were gods of, you know, they were like frog, like animal, you know, these like water gods,

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God showed that he had power over them. So they were very specific types of plagues that were directly hitting on the things that Pharaoh thought he was the king of.

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Yeah, it seems like, and commentators will do this, they'll develop how each one of the plagues somehow is related to.

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So, you know, you have an Egyptian god that protects the Nile. Well, the Nile turns into blood. The sun god is a major deity among the

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Egyptians. So there's darkness over the land. And they believed that the

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Pharaoh was, you know, the son of God, God incarnate. So the death of Pharaoh's firstborn son is a challenge to that idea as well.

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And so in some way, at least with the majority of these plagues, they can be attached in some way to a specific deity or maybe specific theological beliefs that the

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Egyptians had. Whoa, oh my gosh, the symbolism, the foreshadowing. Oh my gosh,

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I didn't even think about the firstborn son. Well, and you know, the frogs that are associated with reproduction.

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Well, it's like, okay, you like reproduction. I'm going to fill the land with frogs and those types of things.

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You know, again, God is demonstrating his power over the gods of Egypt. You know, again, we start thinking about how the

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Bible cycles back to these types of things, the judgments that are found in the book of Revelation are often very similar to the plagues that God brought on the

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Egyptians. So now as God is judging the whole world and preparing for his kingdom, the judgments there kind of take us back to the plagues that we see with Pharaoh and the

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Egyptians. Yeah, it really does link all together. Okay, I'm going to go for, you know, the big one, the cloud of fire.

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The cloud of fire is insane when he's leading people out of Egypt and he's guiding them with a like pillar of fire and then like a light, a pillar of light.

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I'm so sorry if you can hear those sirens. Like I live right next to a fire station. Um, I can't even fathom having like a pillar of fire guiding me through the night.

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And then like, uh, like a pillar of a cloud. Like, why don't, why don't we get that? I want to see that.

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Or do you feel like we do? It's just like the old Testament version. Well, uh, we, we have the Holy spirit to give us a direction and guidance.

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And, uh, we're not, we're not journeying through a wilderness going to a specific destination and that type of thing.

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But, um, you know, and that, that's, that's what makes Israel's failures in the wilderness all the more significant when, when they leave

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Mount Sinai, maybe, maybe I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, but they've, they've been at Mount Sinai for 11, 11 months.

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They've been there. They've been in the presence of God. They've seen the glory and the greatness of God. And they, they set out and we think, yeah, they, they, they have every reason to be successful.

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God is, is with them. They have a divine GPS. That's going to take them everywhere. They're supposed to go.

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They have, the Lord teaches the priest how to bless his people. The Lord bless you and keep you.

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So they have that. Um, they have the arc of the covenant and God is the one leading them out into battle against their enemies.

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It's like, how could you fail? God has given you everything that you could possibly, uh, need to make a successful journey and be in the promised land in a few weeks.

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And they end up roaming around for 40 years. Um, and I think that just, and really they rebel against God when they leave

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Mount Sinai three days after they leave, after they've been in the presence of God, it's like God gave them everything that they could possibly need or want.

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And, you know, sin and rebellion leads to, uh, leads to the failure and the first generation, not even getting to go into the whole.

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Yeah. Yeah. Um, you think like them coming out of Egypt with all of their polytheistic gods, like the gods that they were relying on, that they were comfortable with, they immediately kind of have to, um, like cleave away into a new

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God that they are unfamiliar with that is doing these super, super natural things. And God's like, see the pillar of fire, see the rod of the snake.

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See the, you know, the parting of the sea. Like I am the God. And they're like, yeah, but I still just met you.

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And like, I don't know, I've got like a pretty good history, like a pretty good track record with my other polytheistic pagan

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God. So like, I'm going to cleave to my golden calf that like definitely helps me sleep at night. Like I sympathize for them because don't we do the same thing?

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Like as much as God's like, I'm good, I provided you life. I fed you here. We are like, but like,

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I feel safer when I scroll TikTok than when I worship you. So I'm going to do that God instead of this

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God. Yeah, it's always easier to have a God, first of all, that you maybe have past experiences with.

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And, and we know that, um, you know, the prophet Ezekiel says that Ezekiel chapter 20, that Israel, they've been idol worshipers from the very beginning.

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So they were worshiping the gods of Egypt. And I think partly, you know, what God is doing often with the

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Israelite is that he's weaning them away from, uh, the beliefs that they've had and, and their

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Egyptian way of looking at life and all of those kinds of things. Even, uh, what Moses teaches us in the creation story about humanity being created in the image of God, uh, is somewhat of a polemic against Egyptian theology.

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They believe that the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh, the first, you know, the Pharaohs, they're, they're the image of God.

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They're the representation of God. The Bible democratizes that says we're all Kings and, uh, you know, we're not slaves.

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We're ruling as God's co -regions and just the value of humanity and the value of human life that emerges from that.

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But, but Moses is correcting the false beliefs that they've learned in Egypt. And so, yeah, that's a, that's a big part of what has to happen here.

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Again, partly why I think that God is, is moving in these miraculous ways. After the

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Exodus in Exodus 14, there's this really important statement. It says when the

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Israelites saw this, they put their trust in the Lord and in Moses, his servant, but they needed to see that before they could be convinced to, to really, truly trust.

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And they're going to constantly, constantly waver in that again, because of that tendency we have as humans to do that.

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Like, I think it is a little hypocritical of us to look at these Jews and say like, what, why, why did you keep going back to your pagan gods?

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Why did it, why did you keep going back? You were just so sinful. Like, you know, this was so unnecessary, but it's like, they just came out of a belief system that like,

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God, like had to kind of compensate with like, I'm going to bring out the whole row of miracles that I could possibly pull out.

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And cause you guys, I've really got to break your brain to like rewire and like focus on me. And we're like, didn't you see

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God once you should be a diehard believer. It's like, well, are we diehard believers? And we like have the written book of all of this.

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We have like the account of this and we still aren't diehard believers. And we, you know, we go back to our sinful ways and practices and, uh, the

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Israelites keep saying, ah, we wish, we wish we could just go back to the way it was when we were in Egypt.

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And we had, you know, such good food and everything. Rather be a slave. Yeah. Like, no, it was not good, but it was, uh, it was what they knew.

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It was comfortable. It was safe. And you know, the difference between faith and we have to, we have to trust in things we can't see.

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And I think that was one of the things that was especially hard for Israel is like these other people have visible representations of their gods.

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And, uh, you know, we, we serve an invisible God that, that, that takes a lot of faith to believe in and accept that.

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Some of the other miracles, just because again, like I was going through Exodus and I was like, how does this work?

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How does this work? This work is the, um, the splitting of the sea. I mean, that just is like the climax of the movie.

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I mean, everybody just knows like Noah and the flood of Moses and the splitting of the seas. Like it is kind of this like coincidental, like quintessential, sorry.

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Um, part of the story, but is there more to it that we miss when we read it?

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Because we get so caught up in the theatrics of him splitting the sea. Um, I, I, I think the thing that I would say, um, is, is theologically the most important thing about the

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Exodus is the Exodus is the, it's like the central act of salvation in the old

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Testament. So in the same way that you have the cross and the resurrection of Jesus in the new

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Testament, the Exodus is that, is that primary act of redemption that God performs in the old

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Testament. So beyond the miracle and the wind and the way that God, you know, saves the

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Israelites and then brings the water back down on the Egyptians, um, that, that act becomes, uh, the way that God will save and deliver his people in the future.

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And so every year they would remember what God did at Passover. And then, you know, the future acts of salvation that God does in the old

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Testament are, are viewed as being like a new Exodus. So, so when we fast forward to, to Joshua and the conquest, what, what's the first thing that happens before Joshua takes the land?

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They cross the Jordan river. And when they, you know, the priest step into the, to the river with the ark, the water split.

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And, and it's like, well, God did that once. Why doesn't he come up with something new? Uh, well, you know, they're not looking for special effects here.

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This is saying the power of God that brought the people of Egypt is also the power of God.

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That's with, uh, Joshua, uh, as they're taking the land. And again, salvation history is moving forward.

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Um, and then when the people go into, when the people go into captivity later, when they go to Babylon, um, the prophet

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Isaiah and other prophets will say, when God brings the people back from the captivity, this will be like a second

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Exodus. And there's probably at least, um, there's at least a couple dozen passages in the book of Isaiah where God's talking about dividing the waters and, and overcoming the sea and leading the people.

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And when you go through the waters, I will be with you and they will not harm you. And it's like, why is he talking about this?

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They're not going to have to cross any waters when they go home from Babylon, but the deliverance from Babylon is a new

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Exodus. And so the imagery of going through the sea and crossing the sea and all that, and, and Jeremiah says, this new

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Exodus is going to be so great. Jeremiah 16, 14, and 15, that they won't even really talk about the old

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Exodus anymore. What God is doing in the future is going to be an even greater act of deliverance.

28:16

So I think that's the, that's the, to look maybe a little bit more at just the theological significance of them crossing the sea.

28:23

And that's, this becomes the paradigm for how God delivers in the rest of, um, in the rest of Old Testament history.

28:31

Wow. I love that. It is like, kind of like what you said, like, it's like, ah, I don't have any more tricks

28:36

God, but it is just like the same power that we saw in Moses splitting the waters we see later and him showing up again.

28:43

Like it doesn't diminish, it shows up again. Like what a powerful moment that is in the Exodus that like other prophets get to experience it.

28:49

Okay. Moving forward. Cause I have so much more that I want to talk to you about. Just one little quickie. I want to clarify with you.

28:55

Cause I saw this and I'm like, gosh, there must be more to this. Cause I'm like, I don't know what this is, but when it's in Exodus 16, there's the manna and the quail from heaven that they're like, what are we going to eat?

29:04

And he's like, I'm going to send little frosted flakes down from the heavens every morning and you collect everything that you need, but don't let it last until tomorrow morning.

29:12

If you do like throw it out, is this supposed to be some sort of lesson on don't store up our riches or why does he specify that?

29:22

With the manna and remember they could keep it for two days on the Sabbath because it just emphasizes,

29:29

I think that they're going to have to trust God to provide for them every day. You can't go to the manna store on Monday and you know, it's going to last for the rest of the week.

29:38

It was a daily provision. And again, it's, they're going to have to trust God that daily he will do this.

29:44

And at the beginning I think they're, they are kind of wondering that. And so, yeah, let's, let's get as much of this as we can.

29:51

And when they wake up the next day, it's spoiled because God's going to provide this, you know, every day.

29:57

He's really like breaking them into submission of like, you're not going to have food. Like I will give you food each day.

30:03

Yeah. Yeah. Give us this day. Our daily bread is kind of, and it is, it will be a daily thing where, and you know, you look at the wilderness where Israel was at.

30:12

There are no, you know, safe ways or food lions or Kroger's or anything like,

30:18

I mean, they are in a barren, desolate place and, and God is the only one who can provide for them.

30:24

And I think the daily lesson of the man, just, you know, they learn that really quickly and food and water become, you know, they're the, they're the primary tests for the people that that's what they're, again, three days after the exodus, they've seen

30:39

God divide the sea three days later. Like, what are we going to eat or what are we going to drink?

30:45

Same thing when they leave Sinai three days later, they're complaining, we don't have any food. And so this was going to be a major way of trusting

30:52

God. Yeah. Wow. What a personal application. I'm just thinking like how, where I'm at in my life, like thinking of like, well, you're in a desert and every day,

31:01

God will give you the food for that day. And then tomorrow you'll have to go right back to him and ask again, because it's only going to come from him.

31:07

Like, whoa, you just like gave me a whole sermon in my head. So thank you. Moving on.

31:12

There's another thing. Or maybe we see that more kind of just with the way that God spiritually sustains us on a daily basis.

31:20

We have food in our refrigerator, money in our bank account, but definitely when we think about God just spiritually sustaining us, that, that lesson probably becomes a little more clear to us.

31:30

A hundred percent. If we look at, what was it? Exodus 13, 14.

31:37

It basically is, it's a positive light, but it's saying like, we're going to, I think it was circumcision, but it was like,

31:43

I want you to do this because it's going to like be a sign on your forehead. It'll be a sign on your hand of the works that God has done.

31:49

To me, that was like the good and holy version of the mark of the beast. Did I pick up on the right thing there?

31:54

Or is that so unrelated? Well, it is a, it is a mark that would show their identity as the people of God.

32:04

And it wasn't just some random thing. Hey, let's come up with circumcision because the promise to Abraham was that God would make him a great nation and God would give him seed and those kinds of things.

32:16

And again, as you pass that on from father to son, it was a reminder, God will continue to make us a great people and a great nation and will fulfill those promises that he made.

32:25

But yeah, it is a, it is an identifying mark for, for the people, for the people of Israel as God's people.

32:33

And it's the sign, it's the sign of the Mosaic covenant or the

32:39

Abrahamic covenant. I'm sorry. So we, we are living with a God that does want that sign across our forehead on our hand that shows us that we are on, on his team, the same way

32:50

Satan would want the same for his. And, you know, the image of circumcision, even later in the old

32:57

Testament becomes more of a circumcision of the heart. And, and that's like in Deuteronomy chapter 30, verse six and other.

33:04

So God is going to surgically cut away, you know, whatever it is that causes his people to rebel or to, to be stiff necked and obstinate and doing what

33:15

God has commanded them. And, and God is going to transform their hearts. I think that's, you know,

33:21

God's going to do surgery on their hearts. Other places like Ezekiel says, God's going to give them a new heart.

33:26

He'll replace the old one. Jeremiah says, God is going to write his law on the heart and sort of overwrite their sin.

33:33

I think all of those images are saying the same thing. God's going to internally transform his people so that ultimately they will have the power and capacity to obey him.

33:44

And that's, you know, that's what we see with the law repeatedly is that Israel, you know, really under the old covenant as a nation and as a people did not fully have that enablement that they needed to live out

33:56

God's commands. Okay. Um, I'm gonna, gonna, gonna keep going. And one of the things that I kept picking up on is, and we're kind of going backwards right now with Pharaoh and going back to before he kind of let the people go is it says repeatedly how

34:12

God hardened Pharaoh's heart. So God had a choice there to either soften or harden. And when it came to the plagues, he, he's like,

34:19

I'm going to harden his heart. So he says no to Moses. So then God can then show his greatness and let the plagues happen.

34:26

And he does the same thing with Pharaoh says, go ahead, let them go. And then he's like, and then God hardened his heart.

34:31

So then his army pursued them. Why to me that it sounds like God is like making someone look bad so God can look good.

34:40

And that doesn't seem right or good or fair, but who am I to judge?

34:45

So help me understand like why and how God is doing that. I, I think it's a little, there's a little bit more to the story than just God simply saying,

34:55

Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to make this guy obstinate so that I can, I can make myself look better.

35:01

If you, if you read, if you read the story of the plagues, here's the part that I think is interesting. I think in the first five plagues, the text is going to be clear that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

35:14

Okay. So in other words, he, by his own choice, his own willful rebellion refuses to assent to what

35:22

God is wanting him to do. It's only in the latter plagues then that God hardens

35:27

Pharaoh's heart. So what I would see, you know, God is doing here is he's not just coercing the Pharaoh into something, but this is, you know, this is the

35:36

Pharaoh's own rebellion. God is merely confirming him in that rebellion, making him more obstinate as a punishment for his, you know, his own initial rebellion against God.

35:47

So it's really the idea of God punishes unbelief with unbelief.

35:53

Pharaoh's unbelief is what leads him to harden his heart at the beginning. And, and God, you know,

35:59

God knows that God says ahead of time, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to harden Pharaoh's heart and get glory for myself in all of this.

36:06

But when, but when there's the actual working out of the interaction between God and Pharaoh, Pharaoh hardens his heart first.

36:13

And then the Lord, the Lord punishes him by saying, okay, I'm going to take that unbelief that you have to its, to its ultimate extreme and ultimately destroy you because of, because of your own pride and arrogance.

36:28

And, and honestly, what Paul says in Romans 1 about how when humanity rebels against God and God gives them over to their sinful desires and that type of thing, it's really the same principle at work there that we see going on with the

36:42

Pharaoh as well. So God's not just exercising his sovereignty and pulling the puppet strings on Pharaoh.

36:49

There's a real give and take and interaction between the two of them as all of this is going on.

36:55

Wow. He rewards unbelief with further unbelief on his end. That's insane. And so scary.

37:01

Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. And we, we see this in other places as well in the Bible. I think that, you know, we're, we're kind of, this principle works itself out.

37:10

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Moving on to Mount Sinai, because again, I was just going through this book highlighting things.

37:17

Mount Sinai was really crazy to read because it kind of seems like it happens twice where he like goes up, gets these commandments, comes down with the tablet.

37:24

He breaks it because he sees everything. He goes back up. God gives him a tablet again. So it kind of like happens twice. And based off our conversation, maybe that's just like hammer it in of like really building this trust in the

37:34

Lord. But what is like logistic? This is me being like a realistic person and kind of you bringing me back into the faith of God.

37:44

But like, what is the academic interpretation of Moses staying on a mountain for 40 days and 40 nights to receive the

37:51

Ark of the Covenant? Like, is that where time turns off? Like, how did Moses sustain himself for a mountain for that long?

37:58

Like, realistically, do we look at it with like logic of like how logistically, how did that work?

38:04

Yeah. I mean, I take the 40 days and 40 nights to just be a time of fasting that is similar to what

38:11

Jesus did in the wilderness. And, you know, I think a lot of this has to do with an intense experience of God.

38:19

What I would see going on with the way that the Lord reveals himself at Sinai is more that the

38:27

Lord is impressing his greatness, his power, his holiness, the fire, the smoke, the mountains, you know, shaking and quaking.

38:37

All of that is designed to make Israel realize we need to take

38:43

God's word very seriously. And, you know, they will say, they'll say to Moses, we don't want to speak directly to God.

38:53

Why don't you go up and speak with him and get the message and come down and tell us? And that ends up becoming the reason that Moses really becomes kind of the prototype of the prophet.

39:04

But I think all of this experience of God on Sinai, again,

39:10

God's teaching the people about himself. And part of this is that God is teaching them about his holiness.

39:16

So only Moses is allowed to go directly into the presence of God. And then there's another group of people that are allowed to go a little bit closer.

39:26

But the people as a whole, they put a fence and a barrier around it, like, don't cross this or you're going to die.

39:32

And really, Sinai almost becomes physically like the tabernacle where you have the outer court, you have the holy place, you have the most holy place.

39:42

Like, again, this is sacred space. This is holy ground where God is meeting with his people. And so he has to impress his holiness upon them so that they will understand the urgency and importance of obeying the commandments.

39:55

When Moses breaks the commandments and goes back up, I guess when I read that as a kid,

40:01

I always thought, you know, Moses lost his temper there and probably shouldn't have smashed something as important as that.

40:08

But really, I think he's more symbolically saying, you have broken the cup by, you know, by worshiping the golden calf while God's still up on the mountain getting the commandments.

40:19

It's almost like they've cheated on God on the honeymoon. And so Moses is symbolically saying, you've broken this covenant.

40:27

God graciously forgives them and allows by giving the commandments a second time,

40:33

God is graciously allowing them to stay in this covenant relationship. Wow. Yeah.

40:38

Seeing it through those eyes definitely makes it make more sense. Because I think just like in my modern sense, you like read

40:44

Exodus and you're like, not even an animal can go like any creature on the mountain while God, like that cloud's descended, is dying.

40:51

Like, what if it's just like not in the same part of the mountain? What if like a poor bunny gets on that mountain, you know?

40:58

And it seems so extreme to us. But you really do think about the transformation of these people of like a polytheistic within the

41:05

Egyptian, like within 40 days, they have to transform. Like that is a very short period of time.

41:11

Yeah. And he's setting them up for how they will have to approach God and worship him when they come to the tabernacle and later to the temple as well.

41:19

Not everyone can just walk into the presence of God. You have to, because of sin, there's a need for sacrifice.

41:26

There's a need for barriers, separation. If sinful people go into the presence of God, it would be like you and I, you know, seeing a downed power wire in the street and grabbing hold of it.

41:39

That's a dangerous thing to do. And the presence of God is very dangerous as well.

41:45

You know, even Aaron's sons die for going too close into the presence of God on the opening day of the tabernacle, like the first day of worship.

41:56

God kills Aaron's two sons to say, listen, you have to be very careful as sinful people, how you come into my presence and how you approach me.

42:05

And you have to worship God on my terms. You have to worship me on my terms, not in any way, not in any way that you choose or in the ways that the pagan people around you have chosen to do that.

42:18

So it's not a sense of cruelty that we should take away. It's a sense of like seriousness that he's trying to like implore on these people.

42:24

Right. I think it's, you know, God is firing a warning shot across the bow saying that, look, coming into my presence is a great privilege, but it's also something that if people come into God in an unclean or an unholy condition, you can die.

42:41

And the ministry of the priesthood, you know, was a gracious way of God providing access to his presence and access to his forgiveness.

42:49

But the people themselves just couldn't directly approach God. And I think, you know, all of this is really setting up the way that Israel will worship until the death of Jesus.

43:00

Yeah. I really like what you said of like, you don't get to choose how you worship God. Like, I think

43:05

I had a comment on a video where someone's like, doesn't God just want us to worship us in the way that is the most natural for us?

43:12

Because we're such different people. Like, doesn't God want to meet us where we're at? And of course, like, this is modern day and that's Old Testament.

43:17

Jesus gives us. Yeah. Jesus knows my heart. Like, I'm into him, but like,

43:23

I worship him through yoga. You know what I mean? Like, he knows. And kind of like what you just said is like, it is a privilege to experience

43:30

God. And he's very specific in the ways he builds the tabernacle, but also how you approach him.

43:36

Like, I think that is very humbling for today's ears to hear. Yeah, it definitely gives us a more

43:44

God -centered perspective. And the book of Exodus is really stressing that because chapters 25 to 31,

43:52

God gives Moses all these instructions about how to construct the tabernacle. And it's like, man, this is like, you know,

43:58

God's almost like a bradzilla. You know, every detail has to be right. Even the incense, I want it to smell like this.

44:05

And then right in the middle of that in 32 to 34 is when they worship the golden calf.

44:10

They did it on their terms and they're punished. And it's pretty serious. And then what you have in chapters 35 to 41 is that then they build the tabernacle.

44:21

They do it exactly the way that God told them to. And it's kind of monotonous for us as we read through that.

44:28

But it's simply stressing like, here's what happens when you worship God your way, the judgment that comes.

44:34

And then here's the glory of God shows up at the end of the book when they've done it God's way.

44:40

Trudging through Leviticus at this moment. And wow, you just gave it more life. So thank you.

44:45

I think that this is kind of a good moment for us to transfer the specifics of it. It's really hard to see, like, why is

44:52

God, like you said, being a bradzilla about these very weird things of like, like just starting off in Exodus.

44:58

Like, why did he request a burnt offering on an altar? Like, what does this do for God? Because to me, it sounds very paganistic to sacrifice an animal in order to appease a

45:08

God. Like, isn't that what they were doing for like Zeus and Ra? Like, if God is totally different and almighty, why does he need us to sacrifice to him?

45:17

Isn't he almighty in that? But you kind of mentioned it before of like, is to cleanse sins. I just, I simply don't understand that.

45:23

Yeah, I don't think it's the idea of appeasing the wrath of an angry God as much as it is dealing with that sin without the shedding of blood.

45:33

There's no remission of sin. All of this is an object lesson. Someone said, you know,

45:38

Israel's place of worship was a slaughterhouse. And you can imagine just the blood and the bleeding of animals and just,

45:44

I try to visualize what that's like. And it must have been, you know, pretty horrific. But I think all of this is trying to, more than teaching

45:52

God's anger, it's teaching God's holiness, but also the grace and the forgiveness that God provides, because he is allowing access to where these animals are dying in the place of sinners who deserve to die and be judged and destroyed instead.

46:09

So there's that grace element. There's that grace. Yeah, I think that, okay, that makes sense.

46:14

You know, that kind of retribution of sin through the spilling of blood. And then you see that verse in Exodus 21, 22 to 25.

46:22

Again, I was telling you, I was going line by line, is it's talking about take an eye for an eye, that eye retribution.

46:28

And why do we need that line when Jesus comes and says, turn the other cheek?

46:34

Are you asking what do we learn from that as Christians? I'm asking like, yeah, why do they seem to contradict each other of like God saying, you know, take an eye for an eye.

46:46

Like if someone takes your eye, you take theirs, essentially. Like he's laying out kind of like the logistics of legality and like how to treat someone that's wronged you.

46:53

But then Jesus comes and he's like, turn the other cheek. So like, why do we get both? Okay. Yeah, I think it's important to understand like the

47:00

Bible is God's word, but the Bible did not just drop out of the sky. You know, oh, here's a magical book.

47:07

Take it up and read it. God, God always... It feels like that sometimes.

47:12

Yeah, and it does. It's a strange book at times, especially. But I think partly what's happening with the law is

47:18

God is revealing his holiness to his people, but he's also revealing that in things that conform to the standards of that day and the standards of justice and things that we see in other...

47:33

So there's a sense in which the law can reveal the absolute standards of God's holiness.

47:39

And I think especially like in the Ten Commandments and those types of things. But there are other places where I think the law is meeting the culture where it's at, and in some sense is trying to elevate people being more loving and more gracious and more merciful.

47:54

And ultimately, it's leading us to understand our need for a Savior, our need for deliverance, and how the grace of God is even greater in light of what

48:06

Jesus has done for us. So there's lots of things about the law that may not, in our thinking, they don't fully reflect the perfect or ultimate righteous standard of the

48:17

New Testament, but God's meeting the culture where they're at. And as they learn about him and understand his gracious character more and more,

48:25

God will reveal more and more of that, ultimately leading us to, again, I think a greater demonstration of mercy and grace in the work of Christ.

48:34

Okay, that's fair. A couple other things that just to me, I'm like, are we supposed to be doing this?

48:40

If this is on the Bible, which ones do we obey? It talks about in Exodus 29, 29, the sacred garments that Aaron and his sons need to wear when they're in the tabernacle.

48:50

And I understand I'm not running a tabernacle and I'm not appointed priest, but are we supposed to have some sort of sacred garments?

48:58

Like you hear of that, like, again, like I'm not saying I'm an expert, but you hear of that in the Mormon culture. So why do they do that?

49:04

And then the priests do that. Should I be like, am I missing something at the party here? Like, should I have brought my sacred garments and I'm being unknowingly disobedient?

49:14

Yeah, I think you're good. And this is how I would, I don't think you need to take your sacred garments to church or anything like that.

49:26

There's two ways that I think Christians have tried to explain the law. Some, one approach is to take, well, there's the moral laws, the civil laws, and the ceremonial laws.

49:37

The moral laws are still in place and applicable to us. The civil laws and the ceremonial laws only related to Israel's worship or government and those kinds of things.

49:47

The problem is it's a little hard to really separate those categories. The law wasn't revealed in that way.

49:54

And, you know, the law isn't given in, well, here's the moral section. But the way that I would understand this that I think is a little better is that the specifics of the law, all 613 of the commandments that God gave to Moses, that was part of God's covenant with Israel.

50:11

And so they were obligated to fulfill and to keep those things. But I think now that there's been a covenantal change in the new covenant, the law remains the eternal word of God.

50:23

All 613 commandments are still part of God's word, but they're not, you know, the exact details of how we live in covenant with Yahweh or how we live in covenant with God in light of our relationship with Jesus.

50:39

I think instead, the law teaches us timeless principles, and we learn from these timeless principles the way that we are supposed to, you know, obey

50:51

God, relate to God. And, yeah, I would say here's an example of that. You mentioned the burnt offering a little while ago.

50:58

Thankfully, the New Testament makes clear for us that we don't have to offer sacrifices.

51:04

Jesus has offered the perfect sacrifice. But that doesn't mean, well, hey, those chapters in Leviticus don't really apply to me anymore.

51:11

Because Paul in Romans chapter 12 says, I beseech you, brothers, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable unto

51:19

God. So I think what Paul is saying is we don't still offer sacrifices.

51:25

The New Testament clarifies we don't do that anymore. But the principle that a burnt offering reflected complete and total devotion to God, that principle remains in place.

51:38

And the way that we are devoted to God in living our lives, we are living sacrifices rather than sacrifices that are placed on the altar.

51:48

So with the priesthood, you know, we're the priesthood of believers. We offer our lives as continual service to God, but we offer to God the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving and a holy life.

52:01

Those garments remind us, I think, of our privilege and our position and, you know, the importance of being pure and clean as we go into the presence of God.

52:10

But the New Testament clarifies for us the details of the law that we are to continue to practice that are repeated versus the things that we should just treat as principles and standards.

52:22

And I know that was a very, yeah, that was a very involved, detailed answer.

52:28

Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to end that response and be like, got it. So these are the ones to obey and these are the ones to let go.

52:34

Because I think it is difficult to be like, well, you're right. Like he has given us a perfect sacrifice.

52:40

There are some things that we just no longer have to do because Jesus was the replacement for it.

52:45

But those things that we should keep doing, which one of those? What are the things that we should keep doing that we should, you know, take right out of the

52:53

Old Testament and be like, those should still be happening today so we can be held accountable, stay obedient? Yeah, I think the laws that are the commandments that are either repeated or reaffirmed in the

53:04

New Testament are the ones like nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the

53:10

New Testament. So obviously we're expected and obligated. So I think we use the New Testament as our grid.

53:17

You know, a lot of times Christians will be accused of, yeah, you guys just pick and choose the laws that you want to follow.

53:24

Like you ignore those laws about eating shellfish or bacon and those kinds of things.

53:30

But you take other things from the law of Moses and make them continue to apply it.

53:35

Well, we're not being, I don't think we're just picking and choosing or being random. We're using the

53:41

New Testament for our guide. Like if the New Testament reaffirms those or restates those things, we continue to practice it.

53:49

Other things that I think were specifically just for the covenant between God and Israel. And those are the things that we learn principles from.

53:58

You know, Paul even, you know, Paul says we're no longer under the law. We're not under the Mosaic covenant. But Paul, as much as any

54:05

New Testament writer, used the Old Testament law as a way of teaching believers how to live a moral life or how to please

54:13

God. And he even, you know, even uses the law about not muzzling the ox or not muzzling an ox when he's treading grain.

54:22

He uses that to teach that we should pay pastors and missionaries. So, you know, it's not like we have to practice

54:29

Mosaic farming methods like Deuteronomy 25 .4. But even something about not putting a muzzle on an ox teaches us a spiritual principle that helps us to see

54:39

God's wisdom and that sort of thing. Okay. Yeah. So it's more of like a logical approach. But do you think that like the things that they celebrated in the

54:46

Old Testament, like the feasts and the festivals and seasons, it's okay that those things aren't still happening because that was between God and Israel and this is we're in a different covenant with God?

54:56

Yeah. You know, again, as you see the movement of salvation history, those things were preparing the way for Jesus.

55:03

Now that the reality and the fulfillment of those feasts are there, you know, we're not obligated to do that.

55:10

Now, if a New Testament believer wants to celebrate those things, I think there's freedom to, especially like for, you know,

55:18

Torah observant Jewish believers that want to continue doing those things. There's nothing unbiblical about that, but you can't impose that.

55:28

I can't say, well, Cassie, you need to be observing the Feast of Tabernacles or you're just not really a devout

55:35

Christian and that sort of thing. Okay. That feels good to hear. So I appreciate you clarifying that. Wow.

55:41

Yeah. That was a lot. There's a lot to digest when it comes to Moses. And that's just one character.

55:46

Yeah. And believe me, we've just touched on a handful of things that we could take this and trace

55:53

Moses' influence through the entire Bible, actually. Oh, that might have to be another episode.

56:00

I think that would be fun to talk about further. Okay. You know, I'm going to be in your inbox following up with you after this call then.

56:07

But just to remind everybody, I know you did it on the Prophecy Call, but just in case nobody knows how to get in contact with you, hear more of your work, just like at Liberty or with your outside podcast, do you mind just plugging some of your work?

56:20

Yeah, you can. And anybody that would like to contact me by email, you can do that either through my gyates at liberty .edu

56:29

or gyates at lwbc .net,

56:36

which is the church—I'm the senior pastor of the Living Word Baptist Church in Forest, Virginia. And we also have a podcast that we do through the church.

56:50

And Living Word Press is the name of that. And so lwbcpress .com.

56:56

So yeah, if I can ever be of help to any of your listeners, and I'm always glad to answer questions and that sort of thing.

57:04

You're the best. Thank you for being a resource. That's so nice. I wish I would have known of you back in 2018 when

57:09

I was starting on this, and I could have just emailed you on my questions. But I'm going to link all of the lwbcpress .com.

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I'll put that in the show notes below so people can connect with you. I'll have your email. And then your podcast is called

57:23

The Dive. Is that correct? Well, we have a couple of different things. We have The Dive. We have Living in the

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Word. And so we have a couple of different things on our Living Word Press page.

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And it's really—I'm kind of like you were back in 2018. Partly, I'm just getting started.

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And it's a slow process. So I have a lot of—I admire what you're doing, because I know this is not easy when all the other things in life that are going on.

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Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you saying that. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate just all the wisdom and clarifications.

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It's so helpful for Christians to know of. But I will be following up with you after this call to get you back on the show for applications of Moses in the

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New Testament and kind of how he shows up, because that deserves its own hour. But thank you so much, and I'll see you back on the show very soon.