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DOUGLAS VAN DORN, Pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado on: “CHRIST in the OLD TESTAMENT”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth. Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Orns and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Friday on this 19th day of August 2016 and I'm very happy to have back on the program again pastor Douglas Van Dorn.
Who is pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado and today we are discussing one of his books Christ in the Old Testament and If you would like to join us on the air With a question of your own for pastor Doug.
Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron. Pastor Douglas Van Dorn.
Thanks for having me on Chris. I appreciate it. And as we always do.
If you could describe a little bit about Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado, even though you've already done that in the past There are people who are discovering iron sharpens iron. It seems every day.
For the first time listening in and would love to have you give a Further explanation of where it is you pastor.
Yeah, we started the church back in 2000 and end of 2002 I guess and kind of constituted the next year Reformed Baptist Church. As far as we know. There are not very many in Colorado. We were the only ones that we knew about of most of our in 44 confessional guys.
Are you know that kind of a. We're kind of out here alone, but.
And you would be a successful other folks and you would be a 1689 confession Church, right, right also known as the Second London Confession and that is the confession that is nearly word-for-word identical to the Westminster Confession and that was by design because the Baptists of the 17th century wanted to demonstrate harmony with their Presbyterian brethren and not Be viewed as some kind of a novelty or a cult or anything like that.
They wanted to say hey guys. We're very much like you except for the distinctives we have in regard to church polity in baptism. So that that's pretty much.
The.
1689 in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's a fair way to talk about it. And of course it also incorporates some of the Savoy Declaration, which is the Congregationalist a statement of faith or confession and.
So it's a very sad state of affairs that today there are very few Congregationalist churches or churches that wear that name Congregationalist that would even know what that that Confession of faith is and if they did they would certainly most of them not ever.
Adopt.
Which is a sad state of affairs. I'm speaking. Particularly about the United Church of Christ, which is the denomination that most typically today. Where's the sign? Congregationalist. So the the book that you have written Christ in the Old Testament.
This is obviously a very important subject. Especially when we evangelize our Jewish friends family loved ones and neighbors and colleagues. From the shadow to the Savior. If you could tell us why you initially had the.
You felt the need to even write this book because there have been books on this subject that have been in print some of them for centuries and Why did you feel that there was a void that needed to be filled?
I.
Well, this book was started as a series of I think Sunday night lessons in our church. And I had been learning about this subject from a different perspective Than most of the books that are written on Christ in the Old Testament.
In fact, it's kind of related to the subject of Giants that we talked about when I was on the show last time.
Had discovered this scholar named Michael Heiser who works for log off faith life company out of Washington and Long story, but he had written a book that he was giving away for free at the time. And I thought it had some things of interest in it.
So I started to read it and it had some stuff on Giants in it a bunch of stuff on in my entire life. So this is a lot more than just talking about Christ in terms of prophecy. Which I grew up with that or you know, even in typology where we're something in the Old Testament.
For an event or a name of a person or you know, anything like that. It's much deeper than that Deep ocean depending on how far we get into it. So I wanted to make it available to people in And you know a book form.
It's also available on the deca blog which I sometimes write for with several of my other friends. So you can get that same material if you go to the deca blog and start looking up Christ in the Old Testament.
Great. Let me give our email address again for anybody wanting to join us on the air. It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.
You may remain anonymous if you would like. Especially if you are bringing up something perhaps that your church disagrees with or perhaps you You are Jewish and you just don't feel like identifying yourself at this point in time asking a question about Christ in the Old Testament or as you would phrase it if you're Jewish the the Jewish scriptures of the Hebrew scriptures.
But we will accommodate your request if it makes you feel more comfortable to be anonymous. Well before we even go into the Old Testament. Where in the New Testament does it speak about Jesus Christ being a Fulfilled prophecy in the Old Testament.
You're talking in terms of or or even anywhere in the New Testament that you would like to start with and reflect.
On why the study of the old would be profitable to us.
Well, there's I'm actually a view on the Old Testament where it is actually seeing the Lord Jesus as the fulfillment of Whether it's the law or whether it is Typology or whether it's prophecy or whether it's terms that were used for a very specific person that shows up You know a very very beginning of Genesis chapter 1 and going all the way through to the end of Malachi.
There is a figure that is there in our you know, even in our evangelical and reform context. We just think of this person, you know God the being God in his nature or essence. Some people might think of him as the father but really it is God through the person of the Son in the Old Testament and When we miss this We end up doing all sorts of to the Word of God.
I mean I grew up in circles Where some of the people certainly not all of them. But some of them saw just this great chasm between the Old Testament God in the New Testament God where? You know the the God of the Old Testament is this warmonger this heat-filled deity that you know likes to kill people and give horrible laws and You know all this kind of stuff that you hear and then the New Testament we get this Lovey-dovey Jesus who never has anything bad to say and is just accepting intolerance of everything that we do I mean, that's a that's a bad reading of not only the Old Testament, but also the New Testament, of course.
But it shows that people to gods that are this is not the same Deity as that God in the Old Testament. So right now when it's writing its books It's taking this from every possible just one of them and we could go to things like psalm 2 Which is used more than just about any other psalm or maybe psalm 110 the Lord said to my Lord Sit at my right hand and I'll make your enemies a footstool that's psalm 110 quoted by Hebrews several times and found an axe or Psalm 2 where you've got this idea of an only begotten Son the nations and you better kiss the Sun lest he be angry with you and this is pointing to somebody who is far greater Than David the psalmist who actually yeah.
Yeah, you're right that there are people that seem to set up a.
Contrast between God the Father and God the Son like bad got bad cop good cop, you know the that. That the God the Father if he had his way would just be nothing but wrath and Jesus would be nothing but mercy and kindness and gentleness and obviously the scriptures.
Paint a different picture than that contrast or a much deeper and rich understanding of the person and work of the Godhead or the three members of the Godhead. And If you could also, we'll start with some of the Pictures of Christ that we have in prophecy to begin with and then we'll move on to typology and the law.
Did you have any particular prophecies that you want to that you want to think about or look at?
Well, like for instance, Isaiah 53 is as a.
Is a.
Prominent text that That Christians will go to to the suffering servant they will go to that text as a picture of the Messiah and yet Many Jews in fact most would resist and say that that has nothing to do with Jesus that it's a picture of Israel or something.
If you could go to that.
They.
They have 53 is not a very light passage point to a an individual figure entity of Israel and of course the New Testament comes along and takes that the ideas of being beaten and he's being. He's being handed over basically by God himself to die.
And then at the end of the thing he's raised from the dead and in the midst of it He's taking our transgressions upon himself in a way that could only be true of some kind of a sacrificial lamb and. So, you know, this is what?
Many of the Jews, you know in the New Testament era for this kind of a figure believe it or not.
And.
The New Testament comes into this and so this of Nazareth and the and the works that he did when he was on the earth and.
Even if we go back further to all the way back to the book of Genesis Where Christians will make much of the fact that like for instance in Genesis 1 26 where God says let us make man in our image according to our likeness and We as Christians will typically say that this is God the Father speaking to the other persons of the Godhead Whereas the Jews may respond and say this is merely a plural use.
That.
Depicts majesty like like royalty often does when they speak about themselves in a third person or in a Plurality and so on. But if you could comment, is that God speaking with other members of the Godhead there?
I'll believe it or not. That's not actually my view. Okay, I If I was going to go to the Trinity and try and you know argue from the Trinity in Genesis 1 I would actually do because I think I think you've got a pretty clear indication there that John picks up in the very first verse and says that the plural Let us Where they actually believe that this is God speaking to a heavenly council of beings and it's a.
The scene is a it's a thing. Let's go make man in our image and then the very next verse it those plurals turn to singulars. And actually, this whole concept of a divine counsel is was very in my own journey into and.
Before we even start looking at some more specific references I don't know if you were familiar with the late Harold camping. He was Someone who basically over time morphed into a cult figure and he had some very novel approaches to Exegesis which were most often involving is a Jesus where he was importing ideas, but one of the things that His biblically Orthodox critics would say about him is that he was Often involved in is a Jesus and seeing Jesus in parts of the Old Testament where he really wasn't there isn't that also a danger.
When we go looking back into the Old Covenant is to Really twist and bend things to make it appear as if it's some kind of a prophecy or discussion about Christ.
Yeah, I think it can be a danger. I mean have a fine line and and you know, good Christians actually disagree Among themselves let alone with a guy like Harold camping they'll disagree amongst themselves over different and one person will say well, no, it's not and Actually have kind of about this, you know, I think regard to him in more places you know, you want to have Reasons.
Good score seeing Christ where you're saying, you know I just want to do what a what you're talking about with Isaac Jesus where you just kind of Hover down on a on a verse and just make it say whatever you want.
That's not acceptable. But if you have to air I said more places than he is because when I die and go to heaven You could ask me one of two questions and I guess I'd rather have him ask me Why did you see too much of my son in the Bible?
Why didn't you see enough of my son, right. I guess I guess the main issue the the main issue would be if Where you saw him in the Old Testament if he wasn't there if it formed an unbiblical or heretical Idea about Christ that would be where the danger would be.
I'm assuming.
Well, we have another.
Classic text I'd like you to talk about for a bit in Psalm 2. I will surely tell you the decree of the Lord. He said to me you are my son today. I have begotten you if you could.
Explain that one. Yeah, so Messiah for anybody who loves to listen to that, but it's talking about this and throw and You go to I have installed my king upon Zion my holy mountain. You have to ask this question of who is the I there and that has to be and then you've got the king who's being Installed on Zion, you know, I mean, I guess in the original setting we could think that it's maybe King David but and so the next verse says.
You know, I will tell it to me. You are my son today. I have begotten thee the nations and the very ends of the earth as your possession now that important verse in my mind for seeing and Understanding Christ here because there's a whole World view that's going on behind here going back to do into Genesis and the promise of the the seed.
That's given to Eve. The idea is that son of God is going so if you'd like to talk about yeah, sure see what I'm saying, so we go to. You just kind of go to the enough of that 70 nations. If you read the table there, there's a list of 70 Nations and curiously Israel is not one of those nations and so that you bring up there a text is Deuteronomy 32 7 Through 9 the Deuteronomy 32 world and he wrote a 40 page paper that was in the Bib Sac journal on All generations ask your father and he will inform you your elders and they will tell you so he's talking about some time.
Long long ago long before Moses and then the next verse verse 8 when the Most High. So it's called Elion. That's the name there for the Most High Gave the nation's their inheritance and The event that's being spoken of there the next part of that verse explains what he's talking about.
He says and I'm reading from the ESV here when he separated the sons of man He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of in Psalm 2 7. So what's happening here you go back and you can read this in Deuteronomy 4 you're in Deuteronomy 17.
You can get read in Deuteronomy 29 there's these verses that talk about how God Allotment is the language The spells of the host of heaven to bow down and work and find this idea in Plato believe or not Heavenly beings of punishment that you guys wanted to fun apart from my will and you know apart from Me the Lord God who created and they will be your inheritance and you will be Their inheritance and you're made for each verse 9 here in Deuteronomy 32 says but Yahweh's portion Jacob is the allotment of is not speaking of the father because you got the Figures that are the Lord the angel of the Lord.
He's got Yahweh's name. He actually is Yahweh's got he's the one that they go to lots house. They take a lot out of Sodom because the Lord is going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and then you find this really strange in 24 that says the Lord so you got Yahweh rain down fire and sulfur from the Lord.
Early Christians, I've got 20 different quotes from church fathers on this. Some of the rabbis believe to Yahweh's in this verse hmm got the king a covenant with him having an argument at the end of chapter 18 over how many people he's gonna say and He called down five father is the Yahweh in heaven and the son is the Yahweh on earth all Yahweh.
Hmm just called so what gets me so fired up about this subject. Is that the coming person? This is about who is Covenanting with Israel as the Son of God. The God who is hurting the whole starting that project the Lord's poor of his inheritance and the idea there is.
There was no it so God called nothing. He makes him into a new nation and this figure called the angel of Yahweh. Who is shortened just to Yahweh ends up? You know Covenanting with that people son it will be in throng nations as your inheritance his inheritance Beyond the nation.
So this is really.
Hammering home the eternality of Not only the second person of the Trinity Jesus Christ But also his sonship because as you may be aware there have been folks who were biblically sound in many regards about the deity of Christ and the Trinity But who made a departure from biblical orthodoxy by claiming that Christ being the son was only a role that he was in after the incarnation.
When he was walking the earth, but but I'm assuming from what you're saying is you would view that as aberrant.
Yeah, absolutely. So if you again it's in that Deuteronomy. This one is verse 8 there 32 8 You've got this number of the sons of God. The language is the sons of God and here's the connection to the Giants because if you go remember back in our discussion Couple months ago in Genesis 6.
It says the sons of God Took among themselves the daughters of men question is who in the world are the sons of God and so every time that this phrase Is used in the old it's always referring to heavenly beings of 38 The Sun where were you with foundations of the earth?
It's not possible that you know and early in the book of to heaven and that's another it's a divine courtroom scene of this divine counsel and so you've got these talking with a pastor about writing a book on the angel of the Lord and his his claim and I agree with him as the New Testament and especially in the Gospel of John is that he is claiming to be This figure from the Old Testament who is sometimes called the word sometimes called the name sometimes called the angel and sometimes like in psalm 2 he's called the Sun and You know, in fact in Deuteronomy 32 there.
I would say that he is also a Son of God, he's the Lord the Lord's portion. He's a one of the sons of God. But the craziness of it is and this one and if we actually have two powers in heaven was looking up Studying this Yahweh and yet they seem to be distinct and so he actually called it by unitarianism instead of Trinitarianism and he says that in live an undercurrent and to believe in two powers and have seen 24 where Yahweh's ring the ancient of days and then you see one like a son of man who's coming to him.
And by the way, that's another it's the one like a son of he ends up Inheriting the nations of the son of man until you see him coming on the clouds of heaven and he's basically claiming to be Seven and look this has been fulfilled and they functionally became there after.
That is something I've never heard that. I've never heard that before that that that. Okay. Yeah, it's it's all because this person Jesus came along claiming to be this and the Jews were We're buying it hook line and sinker.
They said yeah, we believe you.
That that is fascinating. So that in other words the the Jews were not unitarian going all the way back through Abraham the father of the Jewish people they had they had an openness to this understanding you're saying of at least if not Trinitarian bina terianism and.
That's what it was the Christian error. It was Christ's arrival on the scene that that changed things.
Yeah, so the whole New Testament is basically I would argue the whole New Testament the whole. We're gonna show you who he is from your own scripture. We're gonna prove it to you.
Wow, we have to go to a break right now, and I'd like you to pick up where you left off there Doug. And if anybody would like to join us on the air We do have a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered and if you'd like to join them Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz. And if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours Is Douglas Van Dorn? He is pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado and He is the author of a number of books Including the book we are discussing today Christ in the Old Testament.
And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if You live outside of the USA and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable now.
What you are going through right now when you're talking about how? Christ was clearly present. The Son of God was clearly present. In the Old Covenant scriptures. In the Hebrew scriptures. Before his incarnation.
Before the dawn of the New Covenant. Would that be more in the realm of what is considered typology?
Typology is not excluded from it. Christ is like that you find the typology for example of Christ being the rock things like that, but I think you're himself. Who is. I think boss basically says he's the main character or girls God.
There's a real in Genesis 48 it's two verses. I think he's talking to his son Joseph. It's kind of his deathbed and he blessed Joseph. Isaac walked. The God before whom my father's Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day.
Same word Elohim the angel who has redeemed me from all he puts the equal. So these guys were actually seeing this figure interacting. Physically with this figure actually touching this figure looking at him.
Washing his feet wrestling with him very physical thing that we just don't seem to. You know read read that with that, but that be considered a Christophany and if not if you could define what that means.
Yeah, Christophany is a hard word for me. I mean, it's a basically a Christophany. And so as far as that goes, I would say Christ. It's not the father and it's almost always accompanied with the son, but this would be this would be an appearance.
He's a regular. It's a regular thing. Mm-hmm a Pre-incarnate a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Yes. It's not human flesh that he's coming in and that's an important distinction. He's coming in some kind of an angelic.
You know body that can be touched and eaten so on and so forth. But it can also disappear up in a fire like it did with Samson's father.
Mm-hmm. Now obviously a distinction has to be made because many of our listeners may have had encounters with Jehovah's Witnesses who try to diminish.
Person and nature of Christ by saying that he is Michael the Archangel and Therefore he is not deity. They will say he's divine. They will say he's a lesser God But they will say that he is not Jehovah he is not Yahweh.
He is not God Almighty. He and etc. If you could distinguish between the concept the angelic concept That the Aryans might have of Jesus that would not be what you're talking about.
Yeah, so in any area for example, you know, you bring up the Michael idea well, there's plenty of Orthodox Christians throughout the ages who have thought that Michael is the angel of the Lord. That's just his proper name and you find Matthew Henry and Meredith Klein and all sorts of people talking about that.
So that's not we're at the end there in saying that this this angel is not Yahweh. He's a lesser double one and three so they make the error that there's only one and that they're units they're unitarian and.
So that they would hold that the first one. So the Bible from beginning to the end is that it's coming came in the New Testament in human flesh. It's the same person in the Godhead is the second person and he is God.
He is one with the Father. His name is Yahweh. I mean in 24 one is a good example. He's simply called Yahweh, which is Jehovah. So when they say that his name isn't Jehovah They're just completely wrong and don't have any idea what they're talking about.
This is not a created being this is and we do have.
A listener in Lindenhurst Long Island CJ who asks do you believe that the three visitors in Genesis 18 Who met with Abraham? are in fact.
Appearances of the Trinity. I've heard that before. I don't think so I think that one of them though is the Sun. So it's out that story and it goes from in all the way through chapter most of chapter 19.
You have three visitors. One of them identifies himself as Yahweh and he's the one that is actually, you know in a year from now crazy. So she laughs and then later in that chapter Abraham and they have a discussion.
So most people when they read that study have in mind Disembodied experience or he's talking to himself or something, but no, that's not he's having a conversation with and having a debate happens meanwhile.
These other two figures go into Sodom and Gomorrah and that simply calls them angels in you know. They're so from where they were a few minutes. I don't know anybody who denies that. But that I know of how my mind changed but of the idea of an embodiment of the father like the cloud fire throughout Exodus or the you know.
It's always the Sun is the one who's always coming in a and I wouldn't say a human form. He's coming in an angelic form and they're they're overlapping, but they're not the same because angels are not they're not Adam.
They're not human. They're not well, you just said you were referring to God the father not.
Appearing in Scripture in human form. What is it that Moses saw? When God Acquiesced to show him his hindquarters. I could never figure that out what that really meant. Yeah. I know you're not alone.
It's a really hard passage. I struggled a lot with that. I had a priest thought a few years back and I was just getting into this whole worldview and I came to the conclusion and the more I think about it the more I think it's right is That Moses has had you really have to go back to the beginning the burning bush story.
It's not consistent inside this it's not it's in John's gospel. He's claiming to be the angel that spoke to Moses doing so. You go throughout the story and you see that Moses keeps having this conversation with the angel.
But he never gets this like unveiled going when he's up on Mount Sinai Again I believe he's speaking to the angel but and he's not seeing the father because no one can see the father and let he's Speaking to the angel, you know, they all gonna die because the angel says I'm not gonna go with you I'm gonna send another angel to go with glory and so I guess maybe the best analogy I can give is it something like the Transfiguration where he was veiled in some way to Moses and he unveiled himself.
By the way is CJ from Lindenhurst Long Island you are getting an absolutely free copy of Douglas Van Dorn's book Christ in the Old Testament and that is compliments of the publishers of that book and we thank Doug Van Dorn for making those books possible and available to our listeners who submit questions today at least a limited number of them and And Give us your full address CJ so we can have that shipped out to you and that will be shipped to you By our sponsors Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm and they ship out all of our listeners books who win books by submitting questions and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings over at CV BBS comm For being faithful supporters of iron sharpens iron since its inception and we look forward to many years of cooperation for the gospel with you.
And We do have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island who says are there any good books you would personally recommend on Christology in the Old Testament apart from the one that you have written. Oh boy.
I'd have to think about that. Well, you could go back to it. Yeah, all right, well, thanks for the question Tyler and this is this the more I think about how fascinating this what you revealed to me today about the Jews prior to the Christian era prior to the incarnation at least be willing to conceive of the idea of a binatarian concept of God.
This really Does great damage to the modalist understanding that the oneness Pentecostals and the Unitarians have if they were to think that this understanding of different persons in the Godhead being separate co-equal and co-eternal was the invention of Later Christians in history.
How many heresies Chris of a of a some kind of a separation in the mind That is unwarranted between the Old and the New Testaments. Oh, especially as it regards God. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't even be able to count obviously.
Now there's another fascinating passage that I think will be fun to look at which is the very first verse of John. You know most people know this verse in the beginning was the Logos the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
So we won't get into the Jehovah's Witness part, you know the way that they misinterpret that let's just talk about what's really going on there and You know, most people are of the opinion that well, you know this was written pretty late in the first century by John and he's countering this Gnosticism that had crept into the there's another way and that is that John's opening gospel and really the entirety of his gospel is talking about and so when it Says that in the beginning was the Logos the word which concepts from the Old Testament so what happened is that that were written into Aramaic very early on and they were called and They would be read in the synagogues and they were sometimes they were Traditions and other times they were they could almost be considered to translate, you know, you know, we would think of the Bible In English and anyway, they had a word for the Logos called the Memora there's been whole studies on this word this Aramaic word Memora and How did it make a conceit of it is almost a hypostasis of?
God because that's what we speak of. That's the way that we speak about The Son of God in the New Testament.
Hypostatic you lash a.
Hypostatic Union and so what they're saying is that there is this conception of the Logos and I know that's a Greek word. But a two-agent. But there is this idea that the word many places in the Old Testament Can be thought of as a person.
This is one of the chapters in the book and the first places that I take people to is Genesis chapter 15. So this is just a couple before the chapter and it's again, the word of the Lord came to Abraham in a vision now.
What's strange about that the word of the Lord came to Abraham in a vision? Hmm. Well, you heard.
Words don't come in visions. They come to the ear, right? Yeah, you're right, right. They don't they don't come in a vision. The idea is that Abraham saw the word Embodiment language there that most people will say.
Well, that's just an anthropomorphism of the divine essence a literal Language used is coming to Jeremiah and touching him with his mouth with his hand because he's an angel he's embodied in some form and the same thing and little boy that famous story winning voice and He keeps going to Eli and say who are you calling me?
Too dumb to figure out what's going on and what's really strange is it says. So the story starts off and says now Eli Couldn't see very well. He reduces us to this to Yahweh. He's called Yahweh, but it's also called way and then you get this embodiment language again.
Where what you know, you see the word. How do people see the word? Well the main concept of this word of God that John is picking up at the beginning of the gospel. Which is agnostic in Greek? It's Jewish and Old Testament.
That's something we have to go to another break right now. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Don't go away. We'll be right back. With Pastor Douglas van Dorn and Christ in the Old Testament. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year-round Bible conference and retreat center.
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Long Island galleries is honored to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio. See the Long Island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio. Calm. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz. And if you just tuned us in our guest today is Doug Van Dorn Who is an author and pastor and we are discussing one of his books Christ in the Old Testament.
If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen a gmail .com and Please include your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and we have another listener this one in West Virginia.
Martinsburg, West Virginia ed. He asks can Doug discuss pre-existence of Christ in the Old Testament. Well, we have been actually as opposed to the as opposed to the angels who do not share this attribute also Doug.
Does Doug see any deity connection? Linguistically with the the GK a go I me that Christ attributes to himself or tributes to himself multiple times in the Gospels and Yahweh YHWH The covenant name of God as he gave Moses.
That they're that's basically the question that he's asking.
Yeah, we kind of dealt with that. Second one. Didn't we there in the bush and right? It's the angel of the Lord you know Moses asked what his name is and he says I am who I am and You know, we just we have him.
The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire. Stephen in his speech in Acts 7. But yes It was indeed the angel that spoke to him. And so when Jesus is claiming, you know He's saying all these I am statements.
He is saying I am that person to Moses.
By the way ed since you are a first-time questioner, I don't know if you're a first-time listener. But since you're a first-time questioner, not only are you receiving a free copy of Doug Van Dorn's book? Christ in the Old Testament, but you're also receiving a free New American Standard Bible.
Compliments of the publishers of the NASB who have been sponsoring iron sharpens iron since 2006 and so we need your full mailing address. Ed there in Martinsburg, West Virginia and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services will be shipping both of those out to you both Doug Van Dorn's book Christ in the Old Testament and The new copy of the New American Standard Bible.
And Our thanks again to Todd and Patty Jennings at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com for their faithful sponsorship. And We do have another listener and She is from Indianapolis, Indiana and her name is Erin and She writes.
You have to enlarge her question because I'm going blind. She writes. I Wondered if today's guest might explain a bit about Melchizedek as a type or shadow of Christ.
Oh, yeah, we two views of Melchizedek and I tend towards one view, but I'm not 100 on it, but I. The more I study it the more I actually think that it's true. So the first view is that Melchizedek is somehow a type of Christ and that you go to the book of Hebrews that starts talking about Melchizedek there in chapter 6 and It gives all this, you know in chapter 7 it gives all this kind of strange language about him and it makes it makes it seem like Melchizedek is somehow because he's the king and because he's a priest that He is foreshadowing in a type of a logical way, you know, the Jesus himself there's actually a second and you find various fathers that hold to it and it's the view that actually Melchizedek is is a name that may be a title, but maybe a proper name I don't know for the angel of the Lord and that was This land of Canaan and just like you know.
Like we were talking about these heavenly beings that were allotted to the nation. Plato says that. Do you remember when? Then you know, the nations were divided. Its language is almost exactly the same.
Were allotted to Greece and so the idea there would be that Melchizedek is the angel of the Lord and he's ruling from Jerusalem and he decides to come in an embodied form and He is the Lord. The reason why some Christians think that that could be true is that Hebrews uses that he's without Genealogy and And just it's a very strange thing to say.
You wouldn't normally say that just because you know. It's kind of a point of who cares if he's without genealogy if he's just a type. The language there lends itself to that interpretation and I think that that's actually well Aaron.
Thank you for the question and you are getting a free copy of Christ in the Old Testament by our guest Douglas Van Dorn. So make sure you get us your full mailing address and We thank you for participating in today's show.
We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania. Who wants you to comment on? The picture of Christ in Isaiah 9 and Isaiah 11 if you have time.
So those are both starting in verse 6 For to us a child is born and to us a son is given. And the government will be on his shoulder. Notice that language of government and ruling very similar to. Well, it's on to ruling the nations with the rock.
His name will be called wonderful counselor interesting New Testament Writers used quite a bit and which almost all of the church fathers used there. So instead of saying wonderful counselor, it actually says the angel of the great count.
Which would link him in the ways I'm talking to back to this angel so the idea would be that the angel incarnate and. Then he's called mighty God everlasting father prince of peace the increase of his government and a peace.
There will be no end. And on the throne of David and over his kingdom again. Psalm 2 language. Establish it and uphold it with justice and righteousness. Daniel 7 language. Then Isaiah verse 1 there shall come of Jesse and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit and Shall rest upon him.
That's language that the New Testament even uses that Jesus's baptism as fulfillment. You've got this idea of the sevenfold again. The New Testament sees that as now one of the things that the aforementioned one this Pentecostals.
Will point to and you may have guessed already where I'm going here. They and other modalists would point to.
Isaiah.
9 -6 where Jesus is being referred to as the eternal or everlasting father as the handles Messiah puts it. How can you say that Jesus is not the father when this is a very prophecy of Jesus? Identifying himself as the eternal father or everlasting father.
Oh, well, I mean, I guess you just go to the New Testament is the easiest way to go and see that He is speaking to the father doesn't have the ability. He's giving him a people. He's sending him to the earth and all these kinds of the language there of.
Language that the ancient Near East used over and over of their goddess divine counsel way again. So like if you take what was one of 70 sons of El usurps a different deity named Yom. But he's given the title father and ignorance of knowing how the language of father.
Yeah, and I've heard that.
I've heard someone say and I can't remember who it was, but they said that the Hebrew of That phrase would have more been in harmony with with the but the phrase or the meaning father of eternity like the creator of all eternity.
And since Christ was certainly a part of the creation it wouldn't violate the concept that he is a separate Separate person in the Godhead from the father, right? Would that be an acceptable explanation as father of eternity?
Sure, I think absolutely. He's the Yesterday today and forever, you know, they'd be yeah the author and finisher of our faith.
Yeah, the Alpha and Omega and Tyler once again in Mastic Beach, Long Island. And by the way Tyler you asked before about any other recommendations in addition to Doug's book on Christ in the Old Testament.
I would just suggest that you go to solid ground Christian books website. They're one of our sponsors solid dash round books calm solid dash ground books calm and Look in their search engine for anything on that issue and you could also Go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who I've been repeating throughout this program their website cvbbs .com cvbbs .com.
Both Resources are thoroughly reformed in their theology so you could be Safe and venturing through their catalogs without fear of getting something aberrant or heretical. So highly recommend those sources to you, but just Tyler asks Do you think that Jesus clearly is foreshadowed by Moses due to his similar circumstances?
Such as all of the children being ordered to be killed in Egypt and with Herod's order to kill all children under two.
Yeah, that's a great question. I think he's referring to that's in Matthew's gospel. This would be something I would I would put under the category of type and the way that Matthew writes his gospel is.
Absolutely begins with this baby. That's born like he said and someone who's under two years old. He then flees to Egypt. Which is something that you know recalls the Moses story. He then and I'm missing a couple things here.
He then comes back in he's back teen that begins. Oh, it ends the baptisms. It says and then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And the echo comes when it says and Moses led the children of Israel into.
Until then Jesus is tempted for a period of 40 and in his case. It's 40 days. But what ends up happening is the Israelites are there for 40 years and then he goes on top of a mountain. And he gives the law which then kind of can but I don't even know that it can clear the highlight of the typology.
Where? Jesus, you know is now retaking that Scene of Mount Sinai where the law is given in the Old Testament most likely a Jewish audience and as they're reading this They would have easily seen we saying that Jesus is not only the new and better Moses.
He's not only the new and better.
Well, praise God for that Tyler you are getting a free copy of Doug Van Doren's book as well. If you send us your full mailing address and we thank you again for Joining us on the air with a question and our email address for anybody else listening.
Who'd like to join us is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. If you could go to Jeremiah 17 and to that classic text of I The Lord searched the heart. I test the mind even to give to each man according to his ways according to the Results of his deeds isn't that clearly revealed in the New Testament as being Christ?
The searcher of the mind and the heart are you thinking of something in Revelation aren't you? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Revelation is just filled with language. If you if you don't know your Old Testament, you cannot understand Revelation.
End of story. It just that's just going on there where Jesus is time and time and time again. You know being related to which is the mind and the heart and that verse it is Yahweh. It is Jehovah. It doesn't even say the angel of Yahweh.
It's just simply Yahweh. So when that's attributed to Christ what it's saying is Christ is Yahweh.
Amen, and that is a I think a good verse to bring our Jehovah's Witness friends to who try to make a distinction between Christ and Yahweh and.
That is a big Issue there that we face in regard to our discussions with not only Jehovah's Witnesses but with Jews and with Muslims and even with liberals who try to paint the picture that Christ is Perhaps a wonderful prophet of a wonderful sacrificing sacrificial Human great teacher great role model, but not God.
What you are talking about today? Defies all that so clearly if you give any credence at all to the inerrancy of the old covenant scriptures.
Yeah, and I just add to that what what one of my main passions in life is to get even unwittingly been influenced by you know people that Have kind of aberrant theologies that we ourselves. Come to see three.
And it's a promise of this angel. I want people to listen to this really carefully and Then we'll go to Judges chapter 2. Kind of gives a bunch of laws and starts in verse 20. So this is Exodus 23 20 behold I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the careful attention to him and Obey his voice.
Do not rebel against him for he will not our aim is in him. My mind goes to again who can forgive sin, but God alone in the New Testament. Well here Moses is being pardoned your sin and then it says my name is in him.
So There's prophecy and at the end of the conquest the beginning of the book of Judges in Judges chapter 2 and It's a complete reflection upon the passage. We just read it says now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bakim.
And he said and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said I will never break my covenant with you and You shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land, but you shall break down their altars, but you have not obeyed my voice what is this that you have done angel flat-out says did not do it and Now what's going to come is the rest of the book of Judges and my judgment upon you.
Malachi then takes from the beginning of the Bible Old Testament. Malachi 3 behold I send my messenger or my angel and he will prepare prepare the way before me. Malek there and messenger is a good it's a good translation there.
It's referring to John but then it says and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. Not John the Baptist. It's the Lord whom you seek the angel of the covenant in him you delight behold He is coming.
Says the Lord of hope so Malachi is basically taking the Exodus and saying that that angel of the covenant is now going to come in the coming days and you will know about it because becoming John the Baptist to prepare the way and Then you know, you read the rest of what happens there and you start saying oh my goodness.
This is this is not God in his bare naked essence that he coming in the flesh. Praise God.
So we have to make it clear then that all references to an angel In the scriptures are not referring to creatures creations That dwell in heaven who are not God. In fact These are beings who even in some sense have a lesser role in The whole story of redemption than we do because Christ died for us and not them.
We're not talking about those Creations those creatures known as angels and neither are the scriptures always to be Viewed as referring to those creatures when the term angel appears. So obviously you are if you're saying that Christ is the angel of the Lord.
This is a completely different angel.
Questions there first of all. The word angel just means a messenger and you can have human angels in both Testaments. That word is spoken of of human beings that become messengers. You've also got heavenly beings that are created that are called angels and you've got this one figure.
Who has called the angel of Yahweh or just Yahweh. Who is yeah.
I was just saying that people have to be careful not to overreact to what you're saying because they broad brush the term Angel to always mean a creature Rather than to God itself in any any circumstance.
Yeah, that's where yeah.
We do have to be careful there because we would want to say that we have to say in some kind of physicality because you can't have feet and Hands and you can't eat and you can't be seen unless there's something physical going on.
That physical manifestation. So you won with the person that is behind it that that Figure is the second person of the Trinity who is not created. So and that's kind of the you know, the rightness and alright I mean the physical manifestation should be angel is Yahweh the Trinity is not just a physical being is an eternal spirit.
You know that is united in a theophanic or Christophanic, you know kind of a way to this.
Manifestation and now we have to go to our final break. And if you'd like to join us on the air Can you believe that 90 minutes went by already? That's it's going by like a bullet. If you'd like to join us on the air, you have about a half hour left.
So try to get your questions to us as soon as possible. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA but you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable and.
So don't go away. We're gonna be right back with Doug Van Dorn and our discussion on Christ in the Old Testament after these words from our sponsors. So do not go away.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and Before we return to our discussion of one of our sponsors has some exciting news. The g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation or more specifically when Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses in protest to indulgence sewing to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg Germany in 1517 on October 31st to be more precise that celebration is Being held January 19th through the 21st in Atlanta, Georgia of this next year coming up 2017 and There is a lineup of speakers like I have never seen at one gathering.
An amazing lineup not only because of the length of it, but because of the the quality of it. So we've got. Paul Washer. Steven J. Lawson de a Carson voti Baucom my dear friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries whose voice you just heard a little while ago.
Promoting the New American Standard Bible. Tim Challis who is going to be on the iron sharpens iron program on Friday. September 2nd. Conrad and Bayway who is one of the most powerful preachers I have ever heard in my life.
An old friend of mine. Going back to 1995 when he began visiting the United States for the first time. And preaching at the church where I was formerly a member in New York. Conrad and Bayway pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia Africa.
Phil Johnson who is the executive director of grace to you? the publishing and media ministry of John MacArthur of Grace Community Church in California. Phil Johnson who has also been a guest on iron sharpens iron probably more than anybody.
He will be there. And Rosaria Butterfield who is our scheduled guest this Monday? August 22nd. Rosaria Butterfield who is as she describes it a former leftist lesbian who came to Christ and has been totally transformed by his mercy and grace and power and is now not only a Head is a heterosexual Christian But married to a pastor and we rejoice with her in this transformation and she will be discussing this Monday her second book that she has written and looking forward to that.
Todd Friel who we just had on this past Monday. To discuss his book stressed out. Todd Friel is going to be there. John Kratz who we've had on this program Before and a number of other speakers. I am going to be there.
God willing. I am so delighted that Josh Bice and the folks At Praise Mill Baptist Church who are running the g3 conference? I'm so delighted that they invited me there to set up an exhibitors booth at no expense to iron sharpens iron.
So if you are able to go to the g3 conference, please come up to my exhibitors booth and introduce yourself to me. I would love to meet many of my listeners that I've never met face-to-face before and For more details on how to attend the g3 conference go to g3 conference.
Calm. That's G and then the number three Conference calm and as I said, this will be held in Atlanta, Georgia, January 19th through the 21st 2017 in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
So we hope to see you there. Our guests as I've been announcing throughout this 90 minute period so far is Douglas Van Dorn. We are discussing his book Christ in the Old Testament from the shadow to the Savior and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before we go to any more of our Listener questions. Pastor Doug. I wanted to give a little teaser if you will to our listeners for some future interviews, I'd like to do with you on a couple of other books that you've written and if you could start with your a book on covenant theology a Reform Baptist primer if you could to let our listeners know something in summary form what that is about.
Sunday night series and My goal was there was to kind of make it as simple as I could to go through what covenant theology is from a reformed Baptist perspective. There's not a lot written on that from our perspective.
There's a there's more than one how covenant theology works itself out even among reformed Baptist. I kind of take the I don't take the kind of more Presbyterian line where The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are just kind of basically the same thing.
Mm-hmm. I take more of a 1689 or federal the New Covenant is really a brand new thing because of so anyway, I lay it out in terms of the Old Testament and maybe my kind of unique Contribution to it is I speak about all the different covenants the covenant of redemption the covenant of works.
And then I call them something like typological promise covenants of works or something like that where I'm kind of melding together all these terms in the Old Testament saying that The covenant that God made with Adam after the fall with Noah with Abraham With Moses would do they all have kind of a gracious because they're not the cup speaking that comes in the New Testament with Christ.
But that's missed many times in discussion the issue of Why I'm a credo Baptist and not a pedo Baptist. Mm-hmm.
Now just out of curiosity I don't know if you've ever read Jeffrey D Johnson's book the fatal flaw on the theology behind infant baptism where he has a understanding of Covenant theology as a reformed Baptist that may Be different than the one that is more similar to Presbyterianism as you mentioned.
Have you read?
Jeffrey D Johnson's book on that now. I've only read parts of it. I can't speak very well to it. Okay.
I was just curious about that and You've also written a book on baptism that We'd like to interview you on eventually Waters of creation a biblical fear a biblical theological study of baptism if you could let our listeners know something about that.
My goal in that book was to Help help us think What baptism is and that's something I've found from Baptist. Baptist seemed to start their theology of baptism really in the New Testament, which You know, we're talking here about Christ in the Old Testament.
I'm an Old Testament guy I love it. And I think we just don't know enough about if we did many more theological doctrines than we are even aware of. On the other hand infant Baptist. They like to go to the Old Testament.
Oh Baptist it to infant Baptist, okay, right. And by the way.
Rather than fine, by the way, Doug if you could be careful on how you're moving around because for some reason you're breaking up I'm not sure why.
So didn't want to just say. Well, it comes from the Dead Sea Scroll which is that Jesus was being baptized in fulfillment of a very specific law that ordained comes from Exodus chapter 29 and When he does this he begins his ministry as God's high priest according to the law Line of Melchizedek.
He still is obeying the law.
Doug I maybe yeah. Yeah for some reason you keep cutting out and I'm not really sure why I don't know if your battery is going dead or something, but.
Oh.
Hope not. Well now you sound clear. Um, but if you could just repeat everything you said in the last 30 seconds.
Let's see.
The baptism. Baptism was actually an act of obedience to enter into the priesthood you were saying and.
Turn to the John's baptizing and. No, you don't understand. I'm in John and.
Again, you broke up and you said that John baptized Jesus as a priest. Is that what you were saying Doug? Are you still there Doug? Well, it looks like something was happening. That was cutting our guest off.
I'm not sure what was happening whether it was his phone or Something atmospheric or his battery, but we are now no longer in connection with our guest Doug Van Dorn. I am going to ask that he calls us back and I'm going to go to one last station break.
So we could hopefully get him back on the air to continue the last 15 minutes or so of the show so Don't go away. God willing we'll be right back after these messages.
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Call them at 6 3 1 9 2 9 35 12 for service times 6 3 1 9 2 9 35 12 or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. I believe we have our guest Doug Van Dorn back on the line. Doug.
Are you there?
Yeah, I'm here. I'm back on my landline. The cell phone is not working a very very strange. I've never had that problem before.
Yeah, well that is actually in the world of radio. Something that frequently happens with cell phones. Yep, and I usually actually ask guests to try to use a landline when at all possible. And so we're glad to have you back and Our email address for any of our listeners who want to ask a question within the next 12 minutes or so because we're rapidly running out of time.
It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you could. Just finish what you were saying about Jesus being baptized as a priest which was actually an old Covenant ordinance that he was fulfilling there.
Yeah, when. When pedo-baptists talk about baptism, I wondered why would you why link it to the Abrahamic Covenant? Why not link baptism to Noah? He had to Moses. He had a covenant. Why not link it to?
Levi he had a covenant but you end up finding is that there's actually forms of baptism in every single one of those covenants and There's a specific ordination Sacrament. Great. Well, we hopefully will have you back to.
Discuss those topics and as you said, these are issues that even within the Comparatively small fellowship of Christians and that's today. There are Comparatively small fellowship of Christians known as Reformed Baptists.
At one time I believe we may have dominated the Baptist scenes centuries ago but today even the the small fellowship of Reformed Baptists globally would disagree on Issues like this, but I always like to have.
That's one of the reasons I call the show iron sharpens iron is that I like to have guests Who have studied these issues at great depth? come on the program and Share with our listeners what they have discovered from their Searches of the scriptures, but and just so I don't run out of time before I give this information Doug Van Dorn's own website is Doug Van Dorn calm Doug Van Dorn and that's V a n d o r n calm there's no e at the end of that and We hope that you investigate these resources available on Doug's website and We do have.
Let's see, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who wants to know Is Christ the glory of the Lord?
Yeah, that's one of the chapters.
So.
You can actually speak probably the case. Well, thank you Harrison, and I believe you're getting the last copy of.
Doug's book that we have available. So if you could give us your full mailing address, you are getting a free copy of Christ in the Old Testament thanks to our guest Doug Van Dorn and his publishing ministry and Actually the publishing ministries title is actually the same as your book on baptism, is it not.
Yeah, that's where waters of Cree. Can I finish that? I just came to my mind and that's referencing me.
Praise God. Well, I want to make sure before we run out of time that you Summarize what you think is most Important for our listeners to have etched in their hearts and minds about this subject of Christ in the Old Testament Before they leave this program.
One God the way that we come to know and you don't know that if you've seen me you've seen the father. There's something about the son what God is like in the law one of the law. He's found in the meaning of sacrifices.
He's the Lamb of God. He's found in prophecy after prophecy after prophecy that predict. The second person's coming in human flesh in his works his death his resurrection. His ascension his second coming and he's also found in a person of the patriarchs.
Talks face to face with Moses is the commander of the armies of God who? Joshua bows before when he sees him with the short his own treasured possession and in the and in the prophecies ends up Taking the new Israel the true Israel from all the nations of the earth to be his treasured possession because they're his elect and he loves them and he set his love upon them and he wins them over and.
This is the work of the Son of God from the beginning to see in the Bible is about the seed crushing the head of the serpent and. Every one of the covenants in the Bible talks about the seed the seed the seed seed keeps going through here here and here and here that's more foreshadowing and typology and predicting and the coming of the Sun and it's all coming of the Lord Jesus and who is our Savior and.
Want people to know that see that. And in Genesis and in Malachi it changes you in a way that is profound and it deepens your faith. And It's in that the New Testament apostles made up. It's something that they got from Christ himself who revealed it from the beginning of it.
Amen, and that really heightens the guilt of The Pharisees who rejected Christ because they were it was revealed to them by God That this Jesus fulfilled these prophecies and types and Appearances in the Hebrew Scriptures more vividly than we would typically think today.
These.
Pharisees really had little excuse for rejecting him other than the fact that they Required regeneration like every other lost sinner.
Right. They have that we have time for one more listener. We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.
Who asked. I tuned in late, but am I getting you correct by saying in summary that you believe that many of the Descriptions of God from the Old Covenant that we think are about the Father are Really more about the Son than we ever realized.
They say that strong. We've got to see it never is and that John chapter 1 is all a plane a lot of things talking about.
Well, thank you so much Doug Van Dorn, I want to make sure our listeners Again, hear your website. It's Doug Van Dorn calm. That's Doug van dorn Calm. You can also visit the website of the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado at RBC NC calm.
RBC for Reformed Baptist Church NC for Northern Colorado calm. It's RBC NC calm. I really thank you for being on. I look forward to your return. I hope everybody has a safe and joyful and God-honoring weekend and Lord's Day and I look forward to receiving your questions next week for our look for Guests on iron sharpens iron including Rosaria Butterfield who is on Monday.
But I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are.
A sinner.