John Ankerberg

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line, especially to all of those you who are

Freezing to death back east. I keep seeing all these tweets Tony Bartolucci is in New York and it says it's 9 .4

degrees outside We We had it we had a great here, but I'm gonna tell you something

Whoever does the weather for Phoenix took a vacation today. They just they they left.

I I don't know where they are Ear that or they've got a really bad headache like I do and they just don't look outside one of the two

I'm not sure which but my weather Prognostication software on my computer still says still says high of 79 today was 0 % chance of precipitation

It's been raining all day and it's 62 .5. Hello. Mr. Weatherman look outside You missed it by a day.

It's supposed to be raining for the next four days here in Phoenix, but They missed it.

They just Total base plant on the prognostication thing there and doesn't seem to Then they don't even seem to notice it.

It's just like that. Whatever We're just gonna we're not gonna worry about that. So anyhow many of you by the way,

I Found it very funny. Well somewhat humorous wasn't really very funny but Did that whole thing on the

Obama inauguration speech on Tuesday I Get down with the program go in and look at my feeds and there's a discussion of the prayer

That had been offered and I hadn't seen that but it was sort of like well duh because we know we remember the

Giglio thing and and He he didn't get invited because he had said homosexuality was a sin 15 years ago

I wish it had been 15 days ago. But anyway and They found somebody else to pray.

Well, you know That they vetted this guy and made sure that that he was good.

He was going to give an approved prayer a prayer approved by the secular left and And of course he did and in the prayer, you know asked for God to bless

You know black and white yellow and green gay and straight, you know, I don't know about what it was but Gay and straight got got thrown in there just to make sure it was politically correct

And he's of course, he's from an Episcopalian Church, which made you sort of go. Yeah Doesn't surprise me in the least

Because I'll just tell you a quick story. I Many many moons ago when I was very very young.

My kids were very very young. They were just infants at the time I For a while did television camera work.

I was trained to run television cameras the church We were a part of that time and I not only wrote ran the big studio ones

But I also did the handheld ones well handheld ones These are big humongous things in comparison what they've got today and they were big and heavy and you carried them on your shoulder and it

Took took a lot of energy to do that Anyway, I got pretty good at I mean, it's it's a skill you you have to be able to pan and zoom and and do things without being herky -jerky and it actually takes, you know some skill to do that and So I proved myself good enough at it that the guy who did the television stuff at the church

He also had his own production company. So he needed cameramen. So you you get paid pretty good, especially back in those days

Given what I was making with Alan Omega. It was you know, like a month's worth of Pay for you know one trip out the door.

So I've run camera a number of things. Well, I Hadn't done it for a few years.

I get a call and I said we really need somebody We really we're just hurting here. Could you please could you please come and They were recording

The Episcopalian National. Oh, you remember this? Yeah, the Episcopalian National Assembly congregation, whatever it is.

They call it and it was here in Phoenix and I'm like, oh man, really? There's a bunch of Baptist a bunch of Baptist guys are

Are doing the are doing the cameras on this thing and I told him whatever you do Let me be in the back on the wide shot, you know

Cuz I haven't done this for a while and you know You get rusty and now they put me right down front right on the main the main thing.

And so I'm like, oh great so you can hear what's being said, but you've got these you've got these headsets on and You've got a little microphone and you've got a little thing on your belt.

And so you can talk to everybody else and of course you're talking very quietly and So They're practicing.

We had to shoot the practice beforehand and so They have this thing where they well first of all

It was the Episcopalians of Granada. They they come in and they've got some shamans some

American Indian, dude I'm not doing his rain dance type thing I don't know what he was doing, but he was doing some sort of pagan thing there and I'm just like oh, this is oh, this is great.

And and then they set up microphones at the four corners of the compass north south east and west and They are practicing the prayer that they're going to offer

This is this is 19 I'd say had to been before 95

I'd somewhere around there and Because this I hadn't done it but friends of mine had had shot this in 89

So yeah, this is this is somewhere before 1995. I'm pretty sure so it's been a while anyway

They're practicing their thing So I'm listening to their prayers and they they get to the one and I I think

I had to shoot this particular person Shooting by the way, you know just a case here, you know, just a case given the gun debate these days

It's a camera term, you know, you're you're shooting a shot just so you just so you know

Anyways, I'm on this guy and or gal. I forget what it was and They use the same terminology god bless us white and black male and female gay and straight and Yeah Channel almighty

Isis. Yeah That I wouldn't have been surprised by that either These are the

Episcopalians are talking about here And some of you out there going. I'm an Episcopalian. You're being mean to me

Look, you know what I'm talking about if you're listening to this, you're one of the most conservative. You're an

Anglican You're a conservative Anglican or something like that. You're not one of those kind of people You don't go to the national thing and have shamans doing their thing.

Anyway so Knowing that no one could hear me other than the other guys on the camera side.

I Reached out and clicked on my little microphone. I said Okay, guys When the when the when the ceiling caves in get underneath the tripod of your camera we might make it

And you can hear all the other guys Because it's just like oh man, so I wasn't surprised

I wasn't in the least bit surprised at the At the prayer at the inauguration because look they're looking for somebody like that And if you want to go find folks that will will bless any

Thing that's a society wants you to bless you're gonna find somebody there. They're out there That's just the way it is.

So I wasn't surprised by that at all 877 -753 -3341 some of you are probably wondering

In light of what happened over the weekend that I Did not say a word on Tuesday About what

I posted on Monday and that was an open letter to dr. John Ankerberg and I didn't manica.

I forgot about it. I was preaching for the first half hour of the program. Well, sorry 45 minutes and then the call we got was was a challenging call and things like that, so I Didn't even think about it.

And besides that I afterwards I sort of went well, you know, I did send a direct note to dr.

Ankerberg's Assistant Asking him to look at the open letter and so hey maybe you know, and I'm just being mr.

Sunshine Just being really happy and stuff Hoping positively optimistically that something good would come of all of this but you know,

I've actually been through this for a few years actually going all the way back to the

Cyphered stuff back in 2004. I I know how this goes and So, of course,

I haven't heard anything back and I I wasn't really expecting to but I like to at least hope and So have there been any developments on that front?

No, do I expect any no. No, I don't what we see here is the good old boy

Network and Unfortunately, dr. Ankerberg has co -authored some little booklets with emir canner and Though emir canner knows the truth of all these things and has profited from the

Falsehoods that arrogant has promulgated. I do not expect that there's going to be any

Confession any seeking for restoration? It's just going to be pick up that rug a little bit higher sweep a little bit more underneath it and Just try to ignore the big mound of stuff.

That's underneath the rug over there in the living room of the evangelical discernment ministries

Where everybody knows about this? I mean you'd have to have been living under a rock not to know about this stuff

But there you go. That's just the way it's been Evidently, there's a lot of folks that have started to Listen to this program since 2010

That you listened up until the beginning of 2010 tuned it out for six months and then picked it up out of that one

I guess that's another possibility But I was taken aback by how many people were going.

Oh, I'm I'm really surprised that you're saying something to dr. Ankerberg, I mean

Have you called him directly? Have you have you contacted arrogant directly and I? Just started chuckling because it's like folks

There's a reason why we keep all the all the old blog articles up that go all the way back 2004, right?

2004 the beginning around there. I think it's 2004 when I started blogging it was even before there was

RSS so it was just I was just writing straight HTML code back then and and But we started blogging in 2004.

So we're cut we've got you got nine years worth of stuff there And then there's a search engine and I bet there's could be a better search engine on the new the new one, huh?

This could be a really fancy one. I bet but anyway If you want to go back you could go all the way back to 2005 and my first encounter with Ergon canner who

I'd never even heard of before and you can read a Very long PDF document.

I mean very long PDF document That documents

My going back and forth publicly with Ergon canner and the fact that the beginning he wanted to do all this

Secretly he wanted to do it privately and I insisted that since his comments were public.

Guess what? our discussions should be public and our discussions concerning getting the debate together should be public and Everything should be done open and above board and because the gospel is at stake here

And I was the one who said that and he was the one who started off, you know

We should we should do this. We should just privately and I said no you're making these comments about the gospel publicly

You're not a member of my church we don't have the same elders over us and So this is a public thing it should be done publicly out in the open nothing in secret

Not he said she said and all the rest that stuff. This is about the gospel This isn't about a private thing.

And I cannot believe how many Christians are confused about Matthew 18 18 Or Matthew chapter 18 as a whole, but Matthew 18 specifically they think that when it comes to false teaching

That you should just go to false teachers Quietly, you know, just just have a nice little chat with them because false teachers they'll repent see and That's not what the

New Testament says that's not how it works So anyways, you can go back and you can read this long discussion

Going back and forth that led to the eventual torpedoing of the debate at Liberty Seminary Liberty Liberty University and Then the quiet years between 2007 and 2010 basically and then

You'll discover that when I did find out that Eric Cantor was lying about having debated

Shabir Ali lying about having debated Abdul Salim. I did contact him privately. I Wrote to him and I said, um, here's evidence that you've been claiming to debate

Abdul Abdul Salim and Shabir Ali and I know these are falsehoods. I've contacted

Shabir Ali And the first thing Eric Cantor said to me when he responded my email was is this for public?

consumption or is this private first thing and My response was it's as public as your statements were

Since his statements were made on a radio station actually two of them and from that point on He didn't talk to me

So I gave him an opportunity. I contacted him privately and I present the information to him.

That's when he wrote his quote -unquote apology Where he wouldn't even name Shabir Ali, but but said he got the name wrong

And of course, I immediately wrote back and said, okay, you got the name wrong. You didn't debate Shabir Ali in Omaha who did you debate in Omaha and And well, he didn't want to answer that question because we know he didn't debate anybody in Omaha But be that as it may

Since that time there is absolutely positively not the slightest question The dr.

Eric and Cantor knows exactly what we've been saying Exactly. We've been saying We were told by people at Liberty that his graduate assistants that's what they were assigned to do was to listen to every one of these programs and Report on it and do research on how to respond to it and so on and so forth and they read every blog article

They know 1 ,000 % you want other real obvious evidence of this Remember when someone walked up to Eric and Cantor at his table just last year sometime wearing a what is

Hadith 2425 t -shirt? Eric knew what it was He knew what it was from across the room

These guys know Now I didn't know whether John Ankerberg back in 2010 knew

I Didn't know they maybe all he had ever heard of is what what the Cantor's told him and maybe he wasn't aware

So I provided that information back then and I've provided again in an open letter in 2013

Now he knows do I expect that there's gonna be any movement from there.

I still hope so, but no I don't I don't expect Because Dr. Ankerberg is in the circle of apologetics where one name one political name reigns supreme and that is

Norman Geisler and Norman Geisler has clout and Norman Geisler has power and If you want to get invited to the big things and get the you know go to the the big conferences, but you got to have you got to have norm on your side and Norman Geisler has absolutely sold himself in defense of Eric and Cantor We know that we have taken apart the excuse sheets that well interestingly enough.

I did we did discover one thing anyways, I'm not sure if Turretin fan is aware of this, but the version of the

Excuse sheets that was originally written at Truett McConnell College, which is where emer

Cantor is president and We relinked to the blog articles where we documented that The The excuse sheet has gotten smaller.

It's been edited down still. It's mainly just people saying nice things about Ergon and Emer Cantor But for example,

I I could not direct anybody directly to the ridiculous excuses about Hadith 2425 or Hadith 957 or there's no specific.

I'm glad we kept that stuff, man I'm glad I have a canner documentation file on my hard drive because My how the things disappear my how the things disappear

But no, I I don't expect that anything's gonna come with that and that's sad I Enjoyed the time that I was on the program in 1995 that ain't gonna ever happen again and once again if you stand up and Say these guys are not telling the truth

The doors that will be slammed in your face are many They are many

Unfortunately, and I I wish it wasn't that way

But there you go What What can

I say It's it's sad and I've learned a lot about politics amongst evangelicals and sadly

I've learned a lot about politics amongst quote -unquote discernment ministries

Where you would think? You would think that if you're you're gonna be dealing in that area

You your first and foremost concern should be consistency We have far more information far better information far more modern information on the deceptions of Eric encounter than we could ever have for Joseph Smith jr.

And the very people who can who can handle the information about Joseph Smith and his false prophecies and things like that When faced like this all faced with this kind of information all sudden they can't see it.

Don't don't give me that they can see it But it's who you're connected with and who you're friends with and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and it's it's sad

But that's the way it is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number if you want to get involved with the program and I Have some more of the

Wallace Ehrman stuff queued up if we want to go that direction, but the phone lines are open

If you'd like to call in and you'd like to defend arrogant canner Well, okay, never mind and you know, you might as well throw it out there why not it's sort of fun but if you feel like I was

I Shouldn't write open letters to John Ankerberg or anything like that, you know, feel free.

I'd like I'd like to hear the reasoning I really would But that that rarely really happens anyhow, let's

Let's jump on the phone lines here if we've got him queued up and ready to go and let's talk with Matt.

Hi, Matt Doing good Quick question for actually emailed you last week a little bit about this

I'm having an encounter with a Muslim right now It's the first time I've ever really spoken with a true

Muslim about the gospel and last week. He had given me a book that's what I emailed you about and I Read the book and didn't really find it very intriguing, but I went in there this morning just kind of put all that stuff aside

I just went in there this morning and shared the gospel with him And we talked I guess for about an hour and he he wanted to debate a little bit about the transmission of the

New Testament that kind of stuff which we did a little bit, but I really just wanted to tell him the gospel and Well what he wants me to do is he felt like he couldn't respond.

He told me he couldn't he didn't have answers to some of the Reputation I guess that I provided to what he was saying.

So he wants me to go with him to his mosque tomorrow Meet his imam. Mm -hmm, and and I'm thinking well here

I have an opportunity to go to this mosque and share the gospel with this imam and With him again and with whoever else is there, but I really don't know that much about Islam I know the gospel and I'm confident in the power of God the salvation with that I didn't know if you had any advice for me.

I mean Should I go should I what should I do, you know? And if you had any books that you'd recommend me to give you on that We'll just kind of be an introduction to the trip to well the

Trinity, but you got wrote a book on that But to the gospel to Christianity he kept going back to what you believe in three gods

And obviously we don't not talking about that But I just think if you had any any advice for me or how you would approach that situation well obviously,

I I I'm hearing myself coming back for some reason. I'm I guess it's a

That'll that'll help me somewhat to be able to talk, but I still have something in the background I'll try my best to ignore that Obviously, I would love to have the opportunity to do that kind of thing and and certainly have

I've taken classes to mosques but at the same time I Think you will be limited as to exactly what subjects you can get into and unfortunately

Limited in the kind of topics you can get into At least until April and you can read

Whatever Christians should know about the Quran and then you'll you'll have lots that you can talk with them about So maybe maybe you'll be able to extend the conversation out in such a way as to get back with them or something like that when you've had an opportunity because there is

You know when we don't know someone else's faith it hinders

The clarity with which we can express our own especially when their faith contains

Specific elements that are in response to our own and so you've already encountered The fact that your friend thinks we believe in three guys or that come from well it comes from the

Quran and the Quran is their ultimate authority and So when the

Quran says that the Trinity and surah 5 1 16 is a law Mary and Jesus And you say that's not something we've ever believed, and we don't believe it now, and we didn't believe it back then

The problem is they're now faced with the contradiction between what you're saying you believe and what their holy book says you actually believe and That can cause some what we might call cognitive dissonance to kick him so If you had the opportunity

I think it would be good to ask questions and Maybe to you know strike up a relationship and Have an opportunity for further encounters down the road and find out what the issues are going to be and clearly what

I would do if Since you have such a brief period of time, and it's a huge area.

I mean I've been studying Islam now for Coming up on eight years, and I am still a student of it.

I mean There is still I recognize there are still areas I mean there's so much more

I need to know about Shiism and and I mean you can go really really really in -depth obviously and you don't have necessarily have to do that to be an effective witness

But the point is you know there's still a wide enough Basics area that that you know it takes you some time to get that down, but what

I would do is I would focus on Surah 4 ones 157 surah 4 157 it doesn't really matter which

Translation of the Quran you use though some of the translations will impact this particular usage

But I would go to surah 157 and I would ask him about this surah, and I'll read it to you here.

I believe this is Sahih International which at this point is not one of the best translations, and I'll explain why in a moment, but Surah 157 of 4 157 says and for their saying speaking of the

Jews indeed We have killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary the messenger of Allah. They did not kill him nor they crucify him the literal

Arabic here is But it was made to appear to them now the

Sahih International says but another in Brackets was made to resemble him to them and indeed those who differ over it are in doubt about it

They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption, and they did not kill him for certain The the term is should be haleiham.

It was made to appear to them. This is the one Ayah the one verse in all the

Quran that denies the crucifixion of Jesus and What you have is a really a contradiction within the

Quran because if you look at surah 325 in 1933 They talk naturally about the death of Jesus and so you've got this one this one verse this one ayah

That says the Jews did not kill Jesus well Actually the Bible doesn't say the Jews killed

Jesus the Romans killed Jesus so but the problem is we we don't have any evidence that the writer of the

Quran had any knowledge of the content of the New Testament whatsoever and so The the verse says that we are the ones who only have conjecture to follow

We're the ones who have uncertainty, but the reality is surah 417 is not moving on That's the

Arabic word for clear or perspicuous. It's not easily understood and what's more is it?

Places the Quran directly against all of recorded history because every recorded Source that makes reference to the death of Jesus for the first hundred years after it happened

So from 80 30 to 81 30 all say the same thing that Jesus died on a

Roman cross outside of Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate That's what they all say whether they're Christian sources or non -christian sources.

They all say the same thing and So from a historical perspective there isn't any question about this, but the other interesting thing to note is

That for 200 years after Muhammad no Muslim could remember anything that Muhammad ever said about this one verse

There's no hadith Interpretation of this one verse and so it just stands all by itself

If you've seen our video 40 Arabic words, that's what it's about 40 Arabic words written 700 years after the events and By someone who had no connection with the original events and yet on the that basis we're supposed to throw overthrow the entirety of the

Christian gospel and So I would ask him What he understands that to mean and I would ask him and this will give you some information by the way as to how?

conservative a perspective this person takes I Would ask him if he believes that that that phrase should be halal the the phrase it was made to appear to them

Whether that preach that presents what's called the substitution theory that is does he believe that someone else was put on the cross in Jesus's place

Normally, they believe it was Judas Iscariot sometimes they believe it's Simon the

Cyrene or somebody else, but I would ask him that because most westernized Muslims back away from that Muhammad Assad in his extended translation and commentary on the

Quran which is published by care the Council on American and Islamic relations Specifically repudiates that idea and repudiates the idea that Jesus was taken up to heaven the surah for 158 says but Allah took him up and He repudiates that idea in his commentary most westernized

Muslims will basically go Allah who Alam God knows and they won't give a specific understanding of the substitutionary theory, but outside of Westernized countries the

Muslims will buy the far majority embrace the

Substitution theory and One of the reasons that westernized Muslims don't is that there's a little bit of a problem with it

If if Allah made someone to look like Jesus, then basically he started Christianity by mistake

I mean he did such a good job that Even the disciples go out start preaching the deathbed resurrection of Jesus Christ and ends up founding

Christianity and and it's a real problem, and so they don't want to blame Allah for that and so they go well all right

We'll we'll go a different direction So I would I would just go to sir for 127.

How does that sound? Yeah, okay, I actually listen to your debate. I think his name was

Sammy's a Sammy's a Sammy's a toddy I don't know why I got the mirror. I don't know where that came from.

That's okay. Yeah, I did I listened to your debate on that that was very helpful, but actually came up today

But that sir did and I said well And I brought up his post resurrection appearances

And I brought up the appearance to Thomas and and I said okay well if he if he never was crucified

What about the scars that he had on his hands that he presented to Thomas and and that's when he said well

I don't have an answer to that But you come tomorrow you can speak to my mom I mean, I guess what they just simply say well that that never happened that yeah part of the corruption of the

New Testament Yeah, yeah, basically. That's what I figured yeah, basically yeah, and that's why You might want to at that point if you want to write down another reference.

Let me ask you Do you have a do you have a cut on and what translation is it? Okay All right in all probability if they give you a cut on It'll be either the

Yusuf Ali translation or the Halali Khan translation Both are usable neither one is is the best

But both are both are usable and in one way or the other Matt. I would I'd get hold of a copy

And to be honest with you if you got time Between now and then what

I'd suggest doing is drop by your Barnes & Noble and pick yourself up a copy and for one simple reason

Put yourself in their shoes if you came in if if if if someone was coming to you and you want to talk to them and They went out the night beforehand and bought a

New Testament or bought a Bible to bring it with them It would probably Communicate to them you're serious

You're showing them respect, and you really want to talk with them So you know they're not expensive

There they'll be probably a couple of different translations available to you at that at a place like that if they've got

Malduti That would be a good one Shakir is a good one you know there's there's different types, but I'd grab one so that I could at least have looked at surfer 157 and 158 and Then the other thing

I would suggest as a possibility That you you might want to consider is

Marking surah 5 ayahs 44 through 48 because if you get into a conversation

And we've covered this many many times you can go back and listen to my reviews of The debate between if I recall

No, it wasn't Samuel Greene. It was their own Catholic representative down there in in Sydney and Abdullah kunda

I spent a fair amount of time going over surah 5 in depth and It is the the

Islamic dilemma section where in essence I'll be brief on this

But you know you could read it for yourself in essence the the what I view is the Islamic dilemma is that?

Surah 5 47 says that the people the gospel the all angel the people of gospel. It's Christians specifically

Judged by what Allah has revealed therein and whoever does not judge, but Allah has revealed that is those who are the defiantly disobedient and The issue is those words had to have meaning when they were given which means the

Christians of Muhammad's day possessed the angel they possessed the gospel and We know what the gospel looked like at that time.

We have entire copies of New Testament from that time and beforehand So and they all contain for example the gospel of John which contained the section you were just talking about with Thomas and the

The print of the nails in his hands and all the rest that stuff the gospel that they contained That that they would have had that the people that Muhammad was speaking to would have possessed

We know what that was and it's the same thing we have today, and so if we're to judge by that then we have to judge

That Jesus did die upon the cross and that Muhammad didn't understand that and therefore we have to reject Muhammad And so either the words didn't have any meaning and therefore the

Quran has the section doesn't have any meaning and therefore the Quran's Not the word of God or if we do what the Quran says we still have to reject the

Quran So it's it's the dilemma that I don't think there's really an answer for That you might be want to want to be familiar with there in in surah 5 verses 44 through 48

Let me know how it goes and my hope is You know if you have the opportunity and and this is this is a general

Exhortation to everybody who is involved in any kind of witnessing situation whether it's Muslim Jehovah's Witness Mormon, whatever

Especially in a situation that Matt's in right now my hope would be that the conversation could be respectful and that by not pushing for a

Conclusion right now in other words by leaving things open say hey Could you look at that and get back with me on that or?

I'll look into what you're saying because I haven't studied that and I'll get back with you you leave the door open and for you know further conversation further interaction and You know my hope is that you meet a man, and and you realize wow here is someone

I really want to have an opportunity to to pray for you know I get get this individual's name and And maybe not get together you know immediately but have it have time to pray and to and to Really prepare your heart to be a loving witness for Christ this person

That's what you really want to try to look for down the road, so Matt. Let us know how it goes Thanks God bless

Bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three Get my cursor backward when you've got four screens

Takes a while to get the cursor back where it needs to be to operate things because my

Quran is on the left -hand screen the phones are on the complete right -hand screen and There is

I don't know how many pixels to get across to get there eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's

Go to Jake hi Jake Good It's actually my second time calling, and I just want to say first of all

I really love love your ministry and love your program I've been tremendously blessed by it, so thank you good.

Thank you, sir I was calling up in regards to with the whole Irving Cantor Debate or debacle as of late with with him

I Posted on on Facebook earlier this week kind of I wanted to kind of get a gauge from Friends of mine on Facebook and stuff and they have this wide range of different people different backgrounds and stuff

And I've been noticing it seems like within Christianity there seems to be more of a sphere of people who they don't necessarily care about About the academic or anything like that, but if you're if you're being

If you're calling someone out publicly for public statements that they've been making This notion of oh, we're just being mean -spirited right and you're just being harsh, and you're speaking on loving and for me

I'm wrestling with it you know I'm prepared to go into ministry as a pastor and I definitely see it as a pastoral responsibility to call to call people and hold people accountable for things that they're saying

So how would you recommend? Responding to people who just I mean they have the clear evidence in front of them

And I and I actually shared the open letters that you had and a couple other different things and Their responses

But you're still being unloving right oh, yeah, well the problem Jake what you're up against is

Our our church today churchy entity in the United States when a person walks into a

Christian fellowship and We present the gospel to them and let's say

God is gracious and The Holy Spirit reveals the Savior to them and they bow the knee in repentance and faith

Jesus Christ What we need to realize that that person is still very very deeply steeped in a non -christian worldview and simply sitting in a

Bible study class or in a worship service If the people in charge of that and if you're gonna be charged a

Bible study classes and worship services And this is something you can do for your sheep. This is but it's a challenge, and it's gonna cause you problems in some ways until the

Lord grants maturity to the congregation to whom you're ministering, but in many churches

The whole idea is do not make anyone uncomfortable Make everyone feel as warm and comfy as possible.

Well. There's a problem and that is one of your callings as a minister of the gospel is to challenge this person to be conformed to the image of Christ and To be conformed the image of Christ to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ is to learn how deeply impacted by a

Non -christian worldview you have been and in fact you have to develop you have to actually work at Developing a

Christian worldview so that you can have the mind of Christ so that you can respond as Christ would respond so that you can Respond properly to the

Word of God that when the Word of God brings admonition exhortation and yes even rebuke that you will accept that graciously and with Thanksgiving and That is not easy to do and we are seeing the results of the fact that most evangelical churches don't even try anymore in The Responses that people give to so much of the cultural attack upon the

Christian faith today Why is it that so many sectors of churchy entity are? Collapsing in front of this and just going.

Oh, yeah, I think that homosexuality thing I I just want to be loving so I go I think

I'll go ahead and think that's a great thing Oh this abortion thing I don't know we mean to me to be all worried about that type of thing and this law of God stuff

You know it just makes people uncomfortable. Why is that happening? It's because we have people in our churches

Who literally have a secular worldview with a religious frosting on top of it and that doesn't work?

it just doesn't work and as a and if and if God places in your heart

Jake a Fire for his truth and a love for his sheep you will not let his sheep go running off with the wolves each day

You will warn them as to who the wolves are and Unfortunately that may not make you overly popular and unfortunately that might mean that you're gonna be in a very small church

But well Make sure the wife's okay with that. It's a it's a it's a partner system.

They're really really really is that's a huge huge challenge in the ministry today

But the point is that Ephesians 511 says take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness

But instead expose Them is that unloving was Paul being unloving possibly?

when you when you point these things out to people you can you can even go to the the key text on the scriptures and Say it all scripture is breathed out by God is profitable for what for teaching for reproof

For correction for training and reproof that sounds like calling somebody out.

Yeah, that's exactly right and so Really? You just have to wonder

What New Testament these folks are reading or are they reading the New Testament at all Because I can show them so many places

I mean the Apostle Paul in the book of Galatians talking about the Judaizers who are seeking to Circumcise people he said literally quote.

I hope they let the knife slip Hello Okay You know

I've never said anything even close to that. All right, you know, yeah, I really haven't But you just have to wonder where people's passion is for the truth of God and his glory and what offends him

People can get really passionate about what offends my unsaved friend, but boy, they don't seem to be passionate at all when it comes to what offends

God and That says a lot that says a lot No, and I and I've been wrestling with even, you know posted stuff before just kind of engaging conversation with these people were

You know Sure true statements either from from scripture or from other people who have spoken about from scripture and just well

You know, that's just how would the unbelievers take that? It's like but they're spiritually dead They're enslaved to sin and Satan until they're born again.

They're not going to care. They're not going to like it Yeah, well Unfortunately, you know we named this program the dividing line and God's truth divides and Unfortunately what's happening in our culture is that's going to continue to happen even within the church and it's going to be a purification

It's going to be you know I have I have in a humorous fashion referred to Jesus as the founder of the church shrinkage movement in John chapter 6

But the reality is there's lots of ministers listening to this right now who go yeah, I tried to bring godly teaching to bear in my congregation and I joined the church shrinkage movement, too and Unfortunately, that is very frequently what happens

But sometimes you've you've got to have that happen before a church can actually become healthy and start growing the right way

Rather than the please fill our worship center with driftwood way of church growth

Which isn't a really honoring to God, but anyways, Jake. Hope that's helpful to you Thanks guys, all right, bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three three three

Four one eight seven seven seven five three three four one. It's up there somewhere

It's still there some day that tapes gonna dry out and then I'm gonna sit here going. I remember what the number is

Let's press on here and talk with Kevin in a place that I go to every first weekend in December in December in December.

I told you had a headache st. Charles, Missouri. Hello, Kevin Hello, dr.

White. How are you? Good. It's a pleasure to be on It's my first time calling but you might remember me from your trip here last just last month

You blinded me with the laser I Deny ever having blinded anyone with a laser

No, no, I may have threatened this but I I don't think that I did that.

Anyways moving on quickly Before the lawyers start calling. What can I do for you Kevin?

well, I was watching your debate with Bart Ehrman the other day and Something dr.

Ehrman said in passing It's kind of been mulling over in my brain and he was addressing something about the

Apostle Paul and his writings And he basically said something in passing. It didn't get brought up.

It's something that's been on my mind This is something that uh, Paul said something not knowing that thousands of years later.

It would be considered inspired scripture so I read your book so scripture and I've Been blown over the idea of the canonization of scripture and inspiration and things like that.

I'm still very young cage stager And I was wondering does the mindset of Paul or any of the writers?

Would they have to have known or Does it factor in at all that what they were writing?

was inspired scripture that would last for thousands of years and That's not how that deals with inspiration well, let's keep let's keep in mind that what what dr.

Ehrman is referring to is he's coming from a a Thoroughly naturalistic perspective.

And so what he's trying to communicate is that look these were just you know

And Paul writes to Timothy He never expected anybody else to read this and and and you know

We've just we've gone way beyond what it what it should have been and and and so on so forth that's what he's trying to communicate, but But there is a truism and and that is

As as Peter expresses it no scripture. No prophecy of scripture

He's talking about prophetic scripture specifically good, but but but no scripture comes about by the prophets own will

It's not that that Paul sat down one day. He says, you know I need to write some scripture and this is going to be scripture.

That's going to be honored as scripture for 2 ,000 years and I'm going to write it in the form of a letter to the church at Rome No, did did

Paul have any idea that what he was writing to the Romans? Would be

Part of a canon of scripture for that period of time right like that. Is that required for it to be scripture?

No at the same time It's very clear that he does believe that what he's writing has apostolic authority

Now does that require him to have a full understanding of how that would be interpreted in later times and like that?

no, because as Peter himself said Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the

Holy Spirit. So it's it's the Holy Spirit's activity That gives the mark of scripture or the nature of scripture to what is written

Paul wrote other letters that we don't have did Paul know the difference between the ones that we don't have and The ones that we do have as to what was scripture

I don't see any reason why he would have known the difference between those that was up to the

Holy Spirit of God He knew what he was Doing in providing to the church what he provided to the church and in not giving to the church what he did not give to the church and so The the issue of the canon of scripture

That is God's choice God knows what he moves someone to write and what he doesn't move someone to write

That doesn't mean that Paul could not write proper edifying Important things to other people that God had not chosen to include in the canon of scripture for all time

It was still apostolic. It still should have been obeyed at that point in time But it's God who determines what the church needs to continue to have over time and what the church does not need to continue to have over time and that's where the act of Well, we use

Latin term inspiration But of God speaking comes in and that's why we can have confidence in the canon is it is going to express

He's going to extend the exact same kind of energy and power in preserving

Those words for the edification of the church that he did in giving them initially and That's what we can have confidence in the canon.

So no, I don't think Paul had to be able to go when he was done writing

Romans he goes who I Felt that one. That's that's definitely in the canon and then when he writes to somebody else

Don't think so because I don't think after writing Philemon he would have gone. Oh that one's right there No, it's it's not up to Paul's feelings or emotions or even his understanding to make that kind of determination

It is that that is definitely the the role of the Spirit of God at that point. Yeah, I thought it was kind of The whole little side swipe

But the only kind of ideological conclusion to his quest to get into the mind of every scribe

That ever touched the New Testament that eventually he'd make his way to the Apostles themselves, right, right

Well, believe me I in a private conversation on a telephone once I had the unpleasant experience of mentioning that that Paul said all scripture is the

Anustos and And Ehrman's Ehrman's response was a was was just Degrading laughter

At at such at such a naive view He's more careful in his public statements, but his his personal views are pretty clear.

Hey, Kevin I got one more to sneak in before the end of the program. Thanks for your call, and I hope the visions doing better Hey, thanks a lot

Kevin. God bless. Let's Let's get to Vincent hello Vincent.

Yes. Hi. Hi Yes, first of all, thank you very much for for everything you do on your programs because They've enlightened

Tremendously and an old guy coming to the coming to the scripture late in life relatively over and I do real quickly my pastor

Three years ago gave me a love wind by Rob Bell and told me that What do you think of this because he liked it and I went searching around for Rebukes because I thought it was so outrageously

Heretical and I found you Well, thank you

Rob Bell Yes, well that yeah that nailed it and there were some other good ones, but you were really

My question Hebrews 8 13 And speaking of a new covenant

He makes the first one obsolete and what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away now

John Wesley said that that last line refers to that now that which is antiquated is ready to vanish away as it did quickly

After when the temple was destroyed and I believe I've heard you say something very similar

To that and I'm Mike. My question is what? That seems to refer that old covenant to the promise that was made to the

Jews and What what was what what was the

The lasting effect for the Jews of the Old Covenant until the

Old Covenant Vanished away completely were they still able to?

Were they given sort of a grandfather clause here Yeah, well, you know

I'm not sure if you've found this yet, but on sermon audio calm Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, we we put our sermons there and and so I I've been doing a series on Hebrews.

So I Will go through Hebrews 8 13 in that series. I mean, I'm already past that point.

I mean right Hebrews 11 now, but Just in in in quick answer to the question

This is this is one of those areas where you have some pretty major differences between people Especially in regards to their views of Israel today and things like that.

So it starts touching upon Eschatology and stuff like that. Obviously I take the perspective

That the promises for the people of Israel are the promises of the people of God that the very nature of the

New Covenant is That the New Covenant people Receive those promises which were for the

Old Covenant people In the fact that the law is written upon their hearts and they all know God and that's what that's what

Hebrews 8 is all About that's what Jeremiah 31 is all about Yeah, and that's why

Paul can refer to us as the true circumcision And that the the church receives these promises and there are many people just get all in a tizzy because they're really into the nation of Israel and all the rest of stuff, but The the reality is

I think that once the Messiah has come and that the testimony of his

Resurrection is given to the people of Israel that The blessings that have been promised to them are all to be found in him.

Everything is wrapped up in Jesus Christ and So yes with the destruction of the temple and the scattering of the people that at that time

And I do believe Hebrews was written prior to the destruction of the temple I think it really it's impossible to interpret it in any other way

But but with that you you do still continue to have to this day

Jewish people who are drawn You know the descendants of Abraham in in the flesh

That are drawn to Jesus Christ and come to recognize the Messiah and all those things are true But I think to attach to the the ethnic nation of Israel Some kind of continued

Centrality in the sense of Well, there's got to be these promises that are fulfilled to them and not see that those promises are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ And that the only way those things could be can be wrapped up is as they are united with Christ I just don't see that and it would seem that that text would directly

Address the very that very subject. So yeah I'm concerned sometimes because the

New Covenant almost becomes a secondary thing in some people's thinking because they're so concerned about Certain theories they have about the

Old Covenant and the people of Israel Yes, I was going back to Exodus 25 and 6

You know, I will I will cherish a Thousand thousands. I don't know if it's thousands generations or thousands of people those who obey my covenant

Yeah And and interestingly enough that very same language in the same passage is used of Jesus as the perfect Savior in Titus chapter 2

And what who's that about? It's it's about the Christian the Christian congregation. So yeah, that's that's where that's where it's definitely fulfilled

Well Vincent, thank you very much for your phone call. We've run out of time here and thank you so much for Finding my response to Rob Bell.

That was very encouraging. Thank you and God bless and thank you for listening to the program today Lord Well, we'll be back on Tuesday at our regular time.

We'll see you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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