September 6, 2023 Show with Dr. James. R. White on “The Same Sex Controversy” New Developments 20 Years After Its First Publication”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors and Christian scholars and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man

sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener

with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via

live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day of

September 2023, and I cannot believe that the

conference and debate we have been plugging daily on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for months now.

I can't believe it's next week.

In fact, I was just jolted into reality when my guest today, Dr. James R. White

of Alpha Omega Ministries, reminded me that it is next Friday, Saturday, and Sunday

here in Pennsylvania, more specifically Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is in

Lancaster County, and even more specifically at the Spooky Nook Sports and Events in Mannheim.

That will be the Future of Christendom Conference, and the theme is the

gospel at war.

There are a number of speakers who are going to be addressing various elements of where and when

and how the gospel is at war with prominent things

in society, and included, I should say, in that three -day

conference is going to be a debate that took me a long time to finally get

someone to agree to face off with Dr. White as his opponent,

Dr. Gregory Coles, who identifies as a gay Christian, and the theme of

this debate will be, is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's

Church?

And Dr. James R. White, I know I don't really need to give an introduction, but once in a while we have new

believers listening, and even members of other religions listening.

He is the author of numerous books, I don't even give a number anymore because I'm always wrong, there's always like 30

more than I thought.

He's a New Testament Greek scholar, a highly skilled and seasoned debater, he's a professor of apologetics and

church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, one of four pastors of Apologia

Church in Mesa, Arizona, and host of the Dividing Line webcast.

And today we are talking about the same -sex controversy, new developments, 20 years after its

first publication.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, my dear friend Dr.

James R. White.

Well it's good to be with you Chris, coming to you live from Albuquerque, New Mexico today, where

there's not a cloud in the sky.

It's.

Beautiful here right now.

Is it sweltering hot like it is here in.

Pennsylvania?

No, no, no, it's not too bad.

I think it's supposed to hit like 90 something, which given I live in Phoenix, is actually rather

nice, much higher altitude here than Phoenix.

But yeah, I'm on the road heading toward Pennsylvania.

I'll be in Amarillo tomorrow night speaking, and then just

stops along the way until I get to Mannheim.

And so we need to pray that I don't get run over by a truck,

you know, don't drive off the road, because you know the debate must go on, and so you will be doing

the debate if I'm not able to be there.

So you've read the same -sex controversy,

you were there for the Barry Lynn debate, you had all sorts of material you didn't get

to use the Barry Lynn debate, because you did not want to start a riot, and that

was probably wise of you.

And that will be a repeat, that will be a.

Repeat this time, because we're right near Lancaster Theological Seminary,.

Which is a bastion of liberalism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And isn't it weird?

Recently I started thinking about how many people have debated that are no longer on this planet, and that

would give you a really good feeling about how old you yourself are getting, when you think about how many people you

debated that have already gone on to their rewards.

Well actually, you know, you have.

Mentioned in the past on this show that Barry Lynn is no longer with us, but several people have said, no, he's still

alive, and when I checked his, what do you call that, Wikipedia site, it refers to

him as an is, so I don't know what the.

Story is with that.

Well, I know that John Shelby Spong isn't, that's right, isn't.

Around anymore.

And I was there, I was there for that one too, in Florida.

Yeah, and I heard no end of the mockery against me since the debate was on

homosexuality, and in an elevator, John Shelby Spong complimented my tie.

Well,.

There you go.

It would have been a little bit more dangerous if it was his wife that complimented your

tie.

She was interesting, but yeah, no, I'm looking it up here.

I thought for sure he he had kicked the bucket too, but I guess not.

I don't see him anymore.

He used to be on CNN and stuff like that all the time, so.

Yeah, oh, he was a constant.

I'm wondering if we had any part in his retirement.

I certainly haven't seen him doing any debate since then, because, boy, I'm gonna tell you, he was

not a happy camper that evening in his closing statement.

Oh, well, remember that?

Oh, yeah, because we had to get a hold of the Alliance

Defense Fund, now called the Alliance Defending Freedom, because Barry Lynn threatened a

lawsuit against you if you distributed the video.

And thankfully, they told you, you've got to beat him to the punch.

You've got to file a lawsuit, not for money, but for the rights to distribute the video.

And from what I remember, neither he nor his representative showed up.

At the hearing.

So you were awarded the freedom to distribute the video.

Yeah, well, actually, they wanted to file in the Ninth Circuit, which makes sense, you

know, Ninth Circuit.

And so we beat him to the punch and filed in the, if I recall, it was the First Circuit, whatever circuit has is in

Washington, D .C., because that's where you're supposed to do copyright issues and stuff like that.

And my my recollection was that the day before

our attorneys were to depose him, he agreed for the

sum of one dollar to allow distribution of the of the videos.

So, yeah, that's my recollection.

But anyways, yeah, a guy who had who had testified before Congress

that child pornography is guaranteed.

First, the First Amendment speech tried to sue us to suppress a video that he

knew.

I mean, you had dealt with them.

Yeah, he knew it was going to be recorded.

And it was and it was meant to be for distribution.

In fact, I pointed out where the cameras were before the thing started.

You know, he was like, you know, looking at the whole

examining the whole venue there, the Central Presbyterian Church in Huntington, Long Island.

And I don't know if you remember what's happened with them, by the way.

I don't know.

I haven't touched base with them in years, but that's a good idea.

I should I should look them up.

But I don't know if you remember because they were like the last PCUSA, you

know, congregation that was trying to fight, you know, at that time.

I wonder what what happened with them.

I don't know.

But I don't know if you remember this, but the debate that night almost got called off

because the pastor who agreed enthusiastically to let us have the debate in his

building, he must not have a clued in the

one of the elders who shut up, shut up.

And he says to me, so what's going on here tonight?

Like, well, it's a debate.

It's a debate.

What's the debate on?

James White is debating Barry Lynn of the Americans United for a Separation of Church and State on

his homosexuality compatible with biblical Christianity.

Oh, no, he's not.

Not in this building.

He's not.

And I'm like, what do you mean?

And he said, I'm not going to let that happen.

They're going to burn this place to the ground.

And I said, I'm sorry, but your pastor gave us full permission and we're doing this debate.

And then he was like haggling with me and he said, well, tell me how this debate's going to work.

And I told him, well, there's opening statements, rebuttals, cross examination.

No, no, no cross examination.

I said, yes, there is.

There's got to be.

And then he finally was appeased when I eliminated audience questions.

And if you recall, that is why Barry Lynn claimed he was suing you

because they eliminated the audience questions.

That wasn't really.

Yeah, I didn't remember that part.

Maybe you didn't tell me about it because that would really have complicated things.

I was I was more.

My recollection is more about the fact that we had the Long Island Christian.

Bikers Association who some people refer to as skinheads.

Well, Joe, Joe Pesci, right?

Pesci, Parisi, Parisi, Joe Parisi.

I remember his face.

At least I'd recognize him when I saw him.

It would have been a lot more interesting if Joe Pesci was there.

Are you talking to me?

You think I'm funny?

You think I'm a clown or something?

But thank God that it it.

And the thing that was ridiculous about Barry Lynn complaining about no audience questions, there were only about five

homosexuals in the in the building.

It would not have served him well with to have.

And he was angry with the audience to begin with.

Yes.

I mean, he would.

He was just railing at them in his closing statements.

I mean, wow.

It was that's all he did.

He didn't even give a he didn't even give a closing statement.

He said, I'm not going to waste my time with you people.

And he just used the time to mock everybody there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was a meltdown.

You get that.

You know, this guy was in media and just gave you such a such a clear example of

how they he had never been challenged.

Yeah.

Even back then.

And that was what?

Oh, one two thousand one, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Even even back then, they were already just throwing softballs.

And during the cross examination, when I had to lend and the fascinating thing is you've seen this

twice now, the debate with him and the debate with Spong, I had to

lend them Bibles for a debate on whether the homosexuality is consistent with Christianity.

Neither one of them brought a Bible.

And I had to let them borrow a Bible.

Yep, I remember.

In fact, you had to silence the audience from chuckling about that.

I believe so.

Yes.

Well, before we go into the main theme of your book, the same sex controversy

and new developments 20 years after its first publication, tell us something, tell our listeners about

something about this upcoming debate, especially that as a part of the

three day conference next weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, September 15th, 16th and 17th in

Manhattan, Pennsylvania, Dr. Gregory Coles, as I already mentioned, is

your opponent.

He is taking a different approach than many so

-called pro -homosexual scholars would take, although not

completely different, according to your studies with his work or of his work.

But it was interesting.

It was a long haul, as you know.

I was contacting every single person that I was aware

of within driving distance to Lancaster, who was a professing

homosexual.

Some of those, including people that were openly advocating

the physical activity of homosexuality, even as

a Christian or a professing Christian.

And then, you know, there was there's a wide spectrum, isn't there, of people in that whole orbit?

Yeah.

And I think the challenge that I'm going to have, and I do consider this to be a very challenging debate,

is a lot of evangelicals do not understand a

lot of the language that is developed, terminologies developed, various groups that have developed side A,

side B, affirming, non -affirming.

All of this kind of language leaves most of us just a tad bit confused.

Dr. Coles represents the side B,

celibate, gay Christianity perspective.

And so there are a number of people that fit into this particular

group.

They're not necessarily identical with one another.

But it seems that a lot of people will start off once they, quote unquote, come out of the

closet saying, well, you know, I'm an Orthodox Christian and I

have an Orthodox Christian understanding of sexuality and marriage.

And so I don't believe that I should pursue what my desires are,

even though the assertion is this has always been their, quote unquote, orientation.

And obviously, terms like orientation are not coming to us from

Scripture.

They're coming to us from church history.

But what's happened is they've been accepted and they have become

so mainstream that evangelicals, once they accept that idea,

struggle to deal with, well, if that's all you know, if that's

all the desires that you have, then we have to deal with

people where they are.

And so, you know, we can't tell people they're going to be alone the rest of their lives and they're going

to get old and not have anyone around them.

And so everything gets really confusing when you start looking at, you know, when you looked at Matthew Vines,

when you looked at author of Torn, Justin Lee, you

follow all of them over time and you see movement away from, I mean, Brandon

Robertson.

Um, I remember when I first heard him, probably 2014, 2015, 2016,

somewhere around in there, um, you know, he was doing the, I'm a Orthodox Christian,

um, type of a thing.

And as I listened to him speaking, I don't know if you saw when Jeff Durbin and I, uh, last year

did a program with him, um, he had obviously swung way off to

the left.

I mean, now he was the one who's got the famous TikToks where he's talking about how Jesus, you know,

uh, was a racist and sinned and, you know, stuff like this.

And, and that's from having been allegedly in a position of

orthodoxy only a small amount of time before that, just a few years before that.

And so you see movement in all of them.

Matthew Vines is certainly much farther to the left than he was when he first did that presentation he did

at the church in Kansas, uh, that I did like a five hour response to.

And so there seems to be a desire initially on these people's parts to

maintain this position of orthodoxy, but time wears it down.

And, um, with Gregory Coles, um, he is a writer.

He's an excellent writer.

His, uh, PhD is in English and, um, he likes writing

prose and things like that.

Um, he's a very nice guy.

And so you can go online, put in Gregory Cole's talk presentation, whatever, and you'll see all

sorts of places where he's in churches, uh, presenting a side B,

uh, position, which is.

I have, I am gay.

So his book is titled, um, uh, single gay Christian.

Uh, I'm, I'm gay.

That's all I've, that's all I've ever experienced that, that kind of desire.

Um, he does not believe that same sex attraction terminology is good terminology.

So that sets them apart from a number of number of other people.

Uh, and he has led music continues to believe that he should be

in, in leadership in churches in that way.

Um, but he says, I affirm a biblical understanding of marriage as

between a man and woman.

And he's a part of the center for sexuality, for sexuality, gender, and

faith.

I think is what it is.

Um, that Preston sprinkles the president of them.

And so they affirm that, uh, marriage

has to have complementarity involved.

There has to be a man and woman.

And so he says, that means I need to be celibate my life, my entire life.

I'm not, I'm not looking for, and don't believe that I could have a,

uh, relationship with a man called marriage.

And so this was part of, this was the revoice perspective as well.

Right.

So, so many in the PCA, which is many in the PCA who are otherwise biblically

sound endorsed that.

Right.

Though my understanding is PCA has now taken a very clear stand against it.

Right.

But many of those people are still PCA that affirmed it.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know.

Um, but at least, you know, gotta, gotta look for the positive where you can find it.

Right.

And so where most Christians struggle

is with this idea of the insertion of orientation.

Right.

Into the conversation, because normally with that is

included.

And certainly with Dr. Coles is included the idea that this is innate.

Right.

It is the way God made him and he's not looking to change.

And so this is where you get the difference between this form of gay

Christianity and what you'll get with

American Family Association, MD Perkins.

Um, Rosaria Butterfield has a book coming out in six days.

And she will be on my show on Friday, the 13th of October, just to let our listeners know.

Right.

So her book comes out on the 12th.

Um, I'm going to try to have her on as well.

Maybe, I don't know if we'll do it before the debate or maybe do as afterwards.

Um, sort of as a discussion that way.

But, um, uh, of course, I've been reading your book and, you

know, they, there are a number of people who have taken a complete opposite perspective.

So circling around to the issue of the book that Jeff Neal

and I wrote in 2000, 2001.

Um, that we, we did, in

fact, Jeff toward the end of the book, because we divide the book up.

And instead of him writing something that me adding stuff that I read, I wrote certain chapters, he wrote certain

chapters.

And in his chapters, he saw the beginnings of

these types of arguments, but they weren't really mainstream yet.

And so he did deal with issues such as, well, is the desire

itself sinful because side B Christianity side B gay

Christianity says, no, it's not.

There is nothing sinful about a male desiring

another male.

In fact, that, that was the reason your opposition to the

acceptability of the desire was the reason that some of the major,

uh, so -called Christian ministries that were an outreach to the homosexual community, believing

that the activity is sin, they wouldn't endorse the book because of that.

Right. Right.

Uh, so that's been a, that's been an issue all along, but now it's absolutely central.

I mean, this is what defines why it is that Dr. Coles and Preston

Sprinkle and a large number of what we would call generally

evangelical churches, um, have bought into the idea of gay Christianity

and, uh, we'll say, well, yeah, you have to be celibate, but, uh, this is,

this is an innate issue and therefore you can't address it in the same

way that you would address other issues of sin.

The point was Zaria will explain and, uh,

MD Perkins and others in that area, what they will explain is that if you take

that perspective, you no longer have anything to offer in a way of

hope to the person experiencing same sex attraction,

homoerotic attraction that does not want to have it.

You're basically saying Christianity cannot offer you the hope of change.

In fact, can you pick up right where you left off there?

Because we have to go to our first commercial break.

If anybody has a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, we'll be right back.

Don't go away.

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents the future of Christendom 2023, the gospel at war.

September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and

Omega Ministries.

We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian,

a personal journey of faith and sexual identity.

The debate topic is gay Christian, a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's.

Church.

So come join us for the sixth future of Christendom conference.

The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day Saturday

with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.

This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the gospel at war in many areas of our culture, including

government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching,

writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR, that's G3ISIR for

the 30 discount.

Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for

your 30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureCom Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris

Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureCom Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control,

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off

-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition to secure

com group hazard.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint

solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureCom Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security

innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355.

Or visit securecomgroup .com.

That's securecomgroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureCom Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of

Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem

Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created

exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers

has you covered.

No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the

process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design

technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs.

They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model, to

the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes,

making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your

expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com.

That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner

and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for,

and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this mind

-blowing opportunity.

They're going to give us 100 of the profits from any sale of

jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener simply by that listener mentioning Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So if you are planning on purchasing jewelry for yourself or someone you love, whether it's something they have in

stock at royaldiadem .com or a customized piece of jewelry that you want created, please do it soon

because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this offer where we get 100 of the profits from that sale.

So go to royaldiadem .com as soon as possible and mention Chris Arms and of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I also want to thank Pastor David Reese and Puritan Reform Church of Phoenix, Arizona and

Armored Republic, his company, for today renewing their annual

advertising contract with.

Me.

I got the good news on the phone at lunch today with my longtime friend,

Susan, who led me to Christ in the 1980s, and I was so thrilled to get this wonderful news because it was

urgently needed.

And I know that Dr. White has met Susan at one of your debates on the TR Only

issue, and you gave her a big sympathy hug for maintaining a friendship with me for

decades.

But if anybody has any questions, I'm sorry.

That's true.

Anybody that's been put up with you for as long as I have.

If anybody has a question, send it to Chris Arms and at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

Before the break, you were saying that if you concede

that there is nothing sinful inherently about the

condition or state of being a homosexual,

something that you embrace as an identity as a Christian, if you concede to that,

you're saying that there is nothing that Christianity can offer to the person that is miserable in that state, right?

That's where you left off, I believe.

Right.

Yeah, that's going to be, as far as I can tell, is going to be absolutely central to the

conversation, especially to the cross -examination period.

And that is in 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11.

Now, Dr. Coles has said some things, but I have to clarify some things.

He has said some things that make me wonder if there isn't a difference in his

views and Preston Sprinkle's views in regards to

the key term, arsenokoites, that is found in 1

Corinthians 6, 9 and 1 Timothy 1, 10.

Because Dr. Sprinkle, in his presentations for the Center for Sexuality and

Gender and so on and so forth, had pretty much given what I would consider to be a

solid recognition of the fact that that term found in Scripture

is, Paul's use is the earliest we know of.

There's one other use that may be earlier, but most people would agree that Paul's

the first person to use this.

So is he coining it himself?

Is he taking it from a rabbinic source that we don't have any written evidence of from a later point in time?

But it's plainly derived from two words.

Male penetrator?

Arsenoise male.

I'm sorry?

Male penetrator.

Male better.

Yes, it's what men, when Jeff and I,

when Jeff and I, the book came about, by the way, I suppose we should have

started with this.

The book came about, I remember hearing from Jeff, Jeff's now pastor of a

CREC church, but back in this time, he was at a sort of a, I

don't remember if it was a Baptist church or not, but it was the CREC really wasn't going

yet.

And I remember talking to him for some reason, we'd go climb Squaw Peak together, do stuff like

that, play tennis.

We're both old guys now, but he told me that he had done a series

for his church on homosexuality.

Now, the late 90s, 2000, 2001, that was really unusual to do.

I grew up in a time frame where you just didn't talk about stuff like that at church,

which put us behind the eight ball, basically, really.

And so what had happened was both he and I,

he was a year ahead of me at Grand Canyon College.

And so we took the same Greek classes, the same Greek professor, and

we sort of had a competition going as to who had the best scores in Greek and stuff like that.

And we knew this one guy at Grand Canyon

who became the chaplain of either the House or the Senate, Arizona State House

or Senate at some point.

But as a homosexual, he came out as a homosexual.

We both known him in college.

And so I don't remember how this worked out, but I used to do a lot of radio programs

with Marty Minto.

Oh, yeah.

And he had a drive time program in Phoenix on KPXQ.

Same company I worked for.

And in fact, I filled in for him a few times.

In fact, that alleged debate, it wasn't a debate.

The conversation that Dave Hunt and I had that eventually led to Dave Hunt writing

What Love Is This was when I was filling in for Marty.

And I interviewed Dave Hunt on a newsletter, a call newsletter he had done attacking

reform theology.

And so I don't remember who contacted who or how it worked out.

But long story short, well, it's already a long story.

Jeff and I, just being honest, Jeff and I were invited to come in and

have a conversation with this chaplain homosexual and another homosexual

on Marty Minto's drive time program on the subject of homosexuality.

And so I woke up that morning with the worst

headache of my adult life.

We're talking a migraine.

It was so bad that light sensitivity, nausea.

It was horrible.

And thankfully, I was able to get to a chiropractor at three o 'clock in the afternoon,

get my neck put back where it needed to be.

And so by five o 'clock, when the program started, I was at least functional.

And during the course of that radio debate, Jeff addressed the

meaning of arsenicoites, arsenicoites, plural in First Corinthians 6 -9, as

that what men do with men in bed.

And it does, coiteo is to go to bed with or to penetrate.

So, yes, there is that meaning.

And so if it wasn't Paul that derived it, then

maybe a rabbinic source close to him or it might have been him.

Um, it seems to me Dr. Sprinkle

accurately represented that background.

And I've had a number of advocates for homosexuality who will admit that that is what the term means.

There are many others who try to come up with a what I would call revisionist understanding of what the term

means, that it refers to a young man slave to an

older man, you know, this type of situation.

Rather than the mutuality that is clearly in Romans 1.

And it may well be in First Corinthians 6 -9 that the two terms that are

used here, malakoi and arsenicoite,

both plurals.

Most translations have effeminate and then homosexuals.

The ESV translates just both as homosexuals.

Understanding arsenicoite to be the dominant partner and malakoi

to be the receiving partner.

There's argument about that.

Even from Orthodox people who would otherwise say, yeah, homosexuality is wrong, but there's something wrong with

effeminacy too.

And if you translate them both as homosexual, then you lose that element.

I'm not going to get into that right now.

It didn't seem to me that Dr. Coles is quite that sold out on the meaning of

arsenicoite.

And that's going to have to be clarified right at the beginning.

And I may make it a part of my presentation to ask him that.

So maybe in the first rebuttal, we will already have gotten to that point.

Otherwise, that'll be the first question out of my mouth during cross -examination is, how certain are

you as to the meaning of this term?

The reason is where it appears in 1 Corinthians 6 and the fact that

verse 11, finally getting back to our point, verse 11 begins, and

such were some of you.

Not such are some of you.

But this is an imperfect verb.

I've looked at the manuscripts.

There's no textual variation involved.

Such were some of you.

But and then you have apoluo, you were washed.

Then you have hagiadzo, you were sanctified, you were made holy.

Then you have dikaio, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in the

spirit of our God.

So anybody on the side B,

because everybody on the side B wants to say, hey, I believe in the

resurrection of Christ.

I believe in justification by faith.

I believe in all the central doctrines of the Christian faith.

And I believe the Bible is the word of God, and I believe it's authoritative.

They all want to say that, and I hope that's true.

But the method of interpretation that you're going to bring to that text,

if you believe it is a consistent revelation from God, when I sit here and

look at 1 Corinthians 6, 11, as a person who has taught

Greek on both the basic and advanced levels of graduate level studies,

I look at this and I go, and such were some of you.

So here is an assertion that the preceding list of people who are

excluded from the kingdom, because do not be deceived, is

what he says.

Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, feminine, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards,

revilers, swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And then you have an adversative statement, and

such were some of you.

But then these things happen, and that's why they are now

a part of the kingdom of God, in the family of God.

That's really the only way the language can be dealt with.

And day Christianity, and I don't know where Dr. Coles is going to

come down on this, because everything that I've read and listened to him so far

has basically said, he does not believe that you can change.

There can be no change.

And so my understanding would be, he would look at these as active descriptions

that don't describe him, because he's celibate.

And so the were would only be relevant to people who had acted on their

desires in the past, and hence needed to be washed, sanctified,

justified.

So the whole idea of that is, the desire for that which is displeasing to God,

is not itself displeasing to God, and does not require washing, sanctification, and justification.

By the way, otherwise, yeah, no, no, you go ahead.

No, you want to say, and by the way,.

OK, well, I was just going to say that from my memory, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because you've had a

lot more debates than I've personally arranged for you.

But this seems to be the first time that I can recall you ever saying, I don't know where he's going before the

debate.

Yeah, well, there's two reasons for that.

One is, this was, you know, that for example, when I debated

Spong, I had like four to six months to prepare.

So I read all of his books, everything he's ever, you know, listened to all sorts of lectures.

Bart Ehrman, more than six months.

Dr. Price, more than six months.

This was fairly recent.

And so, but beyond that, there is an, there is

a, I think, somewhat purposeful ambiguity in the

side B position.

And that's why I'm saying, I'm sensing different takes, even between

Preston Sprinkle and Gregory Coles, even though they're both part of the same group.

And of course, you get, you get different viewpoints from people that are part of the same, same group will have, will have different viewpoints

there at the conference, really.

Presbyterians and Baptists, we'll take different emphases and stuff like that.

So that's, that's, that's not overly surprising.

Um, but I have not, one of the, one of the things that really disappointed me is I,

I watched an interview that Gregory Coles had at this church and this pastor,

I, I've, it was very frustrating.

There was no pushback.

It was just all happy, clappy, whatever you say, I agree with it type stuff.

And it would be, would have been more helpful to me if there had been, well, you say that, but what

about this?

What about those who would say this?

You don't, you don't have to be mean and angry about it.

You can just say, but I've heard some pretty smart people say this type of a situation.

You didn't get any of that.

And so you didn't get the needed clarifications.

And in that particular situation, Gregory had spoken, he had done the sermon before the

conversation.

And so the conversation about arsenic coites was in the sermon, not a part of the conversation.

Afterwards.

And so he just simply referred people to what he'd already said.

So there just wasn't any clarification.

There wasn't any, well, where would you come down on this?

And the problem is Dr. Coles likes to tell stories and he says that single gay

Christian, he, he raises the most

problematic parts of his position

in hypotheticals.

That way you can say, now I'm not, I never really suggested it.

It was just a hypothetical.

So he, he specifically tells a story about how he and his dad used to talk about what things would have been, would

there have been mosquitoes prior to the fall?

Okay.

So this type of hypothetical conversation.

And so he raises the hypothetical conversation.

What would I have been before the fall?

What would my desires have been?

If God made me this way, then before the fall, how would that have

manifested itself?

Now that's a, that's a way of making an argument that his

orientation is given to him by God.

And that's why he's not seeking to change it.

But he, but it, it's an, it's an argument without having to make the argument.

Cause it's just a hypothetical anyways.

And in the debate, he's not going to be able to just use hypotheticals.

I'm going to ask him directly, but that hasn't happened yet.

So that's why I'm saying, I don't know.

There, there is a, I think somewhat purposeful ambiguity

inside the Christian polemics.

Like I said, I, I spent the money to take this leader's course.

I haven't finished it, but I've done most of the important stuff from that center with

Preston Sprinkle.

And in that he starts off with these stories, telling stories about people.

And that is prior to any examination of scripture.

And then it goes back to story, story, story, story, story.

So it's the, it's the narrative that is driving the exegesis and

interpretation.

Once you push past that, what's the answer is going to be?

I honestly don't know.

We'll find out next week.

But that's why I said, this could be very, very challenging because most evangelicals

are still operating on a viewpoint from the nineties on this subject.

It's just a black and white thing.

And that's why our young people are absorbing the

cultural perspectives on these things.

Rather than there being clarity in the church on the issues of desire

and whether orientation is an appropriate descriptor

from a Christian perspective of sin and the human,

how humans are created, you know, issues like this.

So, so yeah, I want to be, I want to give him the opportunity of

defining his position because we've got to drill down

to, do you believe that the desire for that, which is

opposed to God's law and God's creation, he may say,

it's not opposed to how God created me.

And so that's where, that's where side B starts bleeding into side A,

side A being affirming, go ahead and get married.

Same sex acts aren't sinful, et cetera, et cetera.

That's where Brandon Robertson is now.

That's where it starts bleeding in and just starts getting confused and

difficult necessarily to, to figure out what's what.

So this is why I'm telling people this isn't going to be an easy conversation.

I don't think, I hope that it's not going to be like what happened

when I debated Justin Lee.

Most people haven't heard that debate.

I'm not sure exactly why.

I think it's because it's, no, I think it is on YouTube.

Didn't I send you a link?

It's only on audio.

Yes, that's right.

We didn't have video.

Yes.

In fact, he was one of the people I approached and did not get an acceptance to the invitation.

By the way, pick up on Justin Lee when we come back from our midway break.

Please be patient with us folks.

The midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida,

who airs this program twice a day in morning drive and an evening in the evening

as a rerun.

They are required by the FCC to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio and all of

their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're physically located.

So they use this middle break to air their public service announcements and other local things while we simultaneously air

our globally heard commercials.

So please be patient with us.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Please do not go away.

The gospel at war.

September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and

Omega Ministries.

We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of single gay Christian,

a personal journey of faith and sexual identity.

The debate topic is gay Christian, a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's.

Church.

So come join us for the sixth future of Christendom conference.

The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day Saturday

with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.

This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the gospel at war in many areas of our culture, including

government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to future of Christendom dot org.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

He really loves hearing interviewed Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

Reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone,

grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch

.com, that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954

-7831, that's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and Mattai in County Kildare, Ireland,

sent you.

Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005.

The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck White of the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Justin Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardenville, Nevada, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and

the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

This is Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

Sharpens Iron radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to

clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of

our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and

always.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco

demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ

at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the

kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Build.

Fight.

Puritanphx .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church

in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net.

Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past

or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I would urge you all to type into the search engine of solid -ground -books .com

James R. White, my guest today's name, because they publish books by

Dr. White, in addition to bringing back into print centuries -old works, even

dating back as far away as the 16th century Protestant Reformation, and all the way through to

our current day.

And just a reminder, they are going through a huge sales slump right now.

And since they are such a vital financial supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I'm urging you all to

please go to solid -ground -books .com today, and make your

largest order that you've ever purchased before, if you're able to.

And if you've never purchased from solid -ground -books .com before, please make today your first

purchase, and mention Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

You're not only going to be doing them a favor and doing me a favor, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are

purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com, an enormous favor of incalculable value,

because they bring back into print and publish for the first time nothing but the very finest in Christian literature.

That's solid -ground -books .com.

Before I return to Dr. White, a couple of quick announcements.

If you really love the show, folks, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to

donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer snail mail, there will be a physical address that appears on your screen as well when you click support at

ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you want to advertise, whether it's your church, parachurch, ministry, business, private practice, like a law firm, a medical

firm, or just a special event, whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with what I believe, I would love to help you launch an

ad campaign quickly, because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And also, folks, I want to remind you, I never want anybody in our audience, as

desperately and as urgently as we need your donations, I never want anybody giving your own church where you're a member

less money than you ordinarily give your church on the Lord's Day in order to bless us financially.

Never do that.

And also, if you're really struggling to survive, wait until you're more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a

financial gift.

The Bible commands us to provide for our church and our family.

Nowhere commands anyone to provide for my radio show, obviously.

But if you love the show and you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, and you have extra money for

benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, please share some of that money with us if indeed you want us to exist.

That is irontreponsirenradio .com.

Click support, then click, click to donate now.

And last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring, theologically sound,

doctrinally solid church, no matter where on the planet Earth you live, I have extensive lists of biblically faithful

churches spanning the globe.

And I've helped many people find biblically faithful churches in all parts of the world, even sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where

they live.

That may be you, too, if you are in that predicament of being without a biblically solid church home.

So send me an email to chrisarensen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. James R. White regarding the same -sex

controversy, new developments 20 years after its first publication.

Chrisarensen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before the break, Dr. White, you were talking about Justin Lee.

If you want to pick up where you left off.

Thank you for the reminder, because I wouldn't have had any idea what you were talking about.

Short -term memories, pretty much shot, I'm afraid.

It's bad.

But no, I had an entire presentation lined out for that debate.

It was up in Montana.

And there's some background to all that that's really interesting.

But anyway, I could tell when I met Justin

when he got there that if I gave that presentation,

that he would walk out of the room and there would be no debate.

Wow.

And so on the fly, I

totally redid everything to just do what I could to

try to get us to the point of being able to have the necessary conversation.

And it did work out.

It was more pastoral than my presentation normally

would have been, I suppose.

But yeah, there is a sense in which when

dealing with many of these individuals, they have internalized

the idea that opposition to their stated

position is personal attack upon them.

And I'm hoping to avoid that next week

as much as possible.

But you have to be able to ask straightforward questions.

You just have to.

So it's interesting because when Jeff and I did that radio debate,

by the way, it was that radio.

Steve Lobby, who worked for Bethany House Publishers, heard the radio debate.

He's in Phoenix.

And in fact, Jeff had worked for Steve when Steve was manager of the Bree and Christian Bookstore right

next to Grand Canyon College.

And so there was already a connection with Steve.

I was already writing books for Bethany House.

And he heard that radio debate and contacted us.

We didn't run off to Bethany House and

say, we want to write a book on homosexuality.

He heard the conversation on the radio and contacted us and said, what do you

think?

Do you think you two could write a book on that subject?

Because there wasn't much back then, honestly.

And I was a little hesitant, but with Jeff's

background and having led these studies, I'm like, yeah, let's let's do it.

And so I did the chapters on.

I know I did some Gamora.

Pretty sure I did Romans one.

And honestly, that was some of the first times that I graduated from seminary.

And I couldn't have told you what the what they call the six clobber passages were.

I don't think most Christians know, even to this day, what the six

unquestionable passages are that specifically make reference to homosexuality.

I think there's more.

There's good evidence that a lot of the temple prostitution passages and like first kings and things like that

would be relevant as well.

But I graduated from seminary.

We didn't have any conversation about it.

And in fact.

In the independent fundamentalist Baptist and Southern Baptist context in which I grew up,

you just didn't talk about stuff like that at church that was just not considered appropriate.

And one of the things I appreciated, I remember meeting when Jeff and I started laying out the book.

One of the first things he said to me is we can't fall into the trap.

Of only dealing with the negative passages.

One of the problems is people don't have a positive biblical understanding of marriage,

sexuality, creation order, all the rest, that kind of stuff.

And if I were to criticize much of what has been said in

response to the homosexual movement, that's one of the things I'd have to criticize is

I still hear a lot of people.

They'll just quote those passages.

I can sort of tell by the way they're quoting those passages that they.

They don't know what the context is.

They don't have a biblical theology of sexuality.

And in that context, I can understand why homosexuals would call them the clobber passages.

Because you just you're speaking over the head with it.

You're not showing that you've actually thought through these issues and can present a positive case

for why, for example, you're fundamentally altering the image of

God in yourself by indulging same sex desire or action.

So Jeff was like that.

We need to we need to have fuller orbed presentation.

So I thank him for that.

And that was also when, without trying to,

by dealing with especially, I think I've told you

before, I did an entire sermon

series at PRBC on the Holiness Code.

I think there's 35 or 38 sermons where we went through not just the Holiness Code

in Leviticus, but I went into Deuteronomy.

Basically, I I covered every tough text in the Old Testament

that had to do with law.

The ones that no one ever wants to touch.

And I started that series off by doing something that I can I know had never happened at

PRBC before.

And that was.

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

I played.

Right.

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

I I played the infamous West Wing

encounter.

Right.

Martin Sheehan with the pig skin and all that.

That's right.

Exactly.

I played that whole thing.

And I said, look, this is how the world thinks.

This is what they're going to throw at you.

And the reason this is effective and efficient is because we don't

know how to deal with pig skin and we haven't read the Holiness Code and we don't

know.

I mean, I remember I remember when David Gushie, Dr. David Gushie,

the Baptist ethicist, became an advocate of the homosexual movement.

And he spoke at Matthew Vines Reformation Conference.

I remember him saying, we we need.

To have a Christian ethic.

That does not simply quote from Leviticus, but instead

tells us that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

I think I was riding bike, which I did a whole lot more back then.

I'm still doing it, but and about crashed.

Because as you know, when Jesus says, love your neighbor as yourself, where

does that come from?

It comes from Leviticus 19.

It's smack dab in the middle of the Holiness Code.

You're just like, oh, oh, how did wow.

How did that even happen?

So we do need to have that positive understanding of all of these things.

And it's it's not a general part of how these topics are preached in the

church today.

And that's what's causing so much of the confusion.

And that's, I think, what's leading people to being confused by the

argumentation being put forward by side B gay Christianity.

Is that they go, hey, these guys are saying they need to be celibate.

These guys are saying that that there shouldn't be gay marriage.

Well, they're not actually saying there shouldn't be.

They're just saying that for them.

That's not appropriate.

I noticed the Preston Sprinkle, one of the stories he told was of a married homosexual

couple, and he used the term wife of the woman in a lesbian relationship.

And so they are not as strong on that as they should be.

But evangelicals hear that and they go, oh, well, good.

This is I can.

I can go with where these people are going from and not be as much hated by the world.

Right.

Because the world is basically saying if you hold to a traditional

Christian morality, you're a bigot and you can get fired and H .R. is going to call

you in and, you know, the whole nine yards.

And I think that's where a lot of this is coming from.

But because they don't have the full orbed understanding of things, then they don't see where this is

leading and where it leads is you don't have a message of hope for a person who doesn't

want to be attracted to the same sex and wants that washing

and that justification, that sanctification.

And you're saying, no, that's that's not for you.

And that's a that's a real problem.

Well, before I go to some listener questions, I just wanted to I don't know if Gregory Coles is listening, but I do want to thank him

again for being the only candidate to participate in this debate for

very quickly and graciously and enthusiastically accepting the invitation to debate

Dr. White.

In fact, he immediately said that he'd like to debate you when I

presented the original theme, this homosexuality compatible with biblical Christianity.

And he said, well, I'd love to debate Dr. White, but not on that theme.

And he explained a little bit about his opposition to same sex marriage and chastity and so on.

So I said, well, how about is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ Church?

And he immediately said, great, let's do it.

So I'm so thankful to him.

And in a in a world where those of a more liberal

bent are just shouting down the opposition and trying to disrupt

and prevent public discourse from occurring.

It's great that there is somebody like Dr. Coles who is willing to be involved in

something involving a very serious difference in the body of Christ.

Am I right?

Well, yeah.

And we just had a little little hiccup there, but hopefully I'm still here.

Obviously, it's easier.

There's more negative emotion coming from the A side than the B side.

But my concern, honestly, is that this is a harder

conversation to have.

Because the issues aren't as clearly defined.

And most Christians in a church have never heard a discussion of

orientation.

And it's just become such a part of our

culture already that to try to...

And I remember when Al Mohler in 2014, after he dialogued with Matthew Vines,

he came out and he wrote an article.

And I remember listening to him on the briefing going, I was wrong to deny there is such a thing as sexual orientation.

I repent of that.

And I was like, I'm not sure what to do with that.

Still not sure what to do with that as to where that ends up leading.

But it's not nearly as cut and dried as people would like it to be.

It's not because the scriptures aren't clear on it.

It's that we are allowing extra biblical categories coming from culture to

determine what scripture can and cannot address.

And there's just a lot of people that believe, look, people back then just didn't know what we know today.

They didn't know about sexual orientation.

And I've brought up, I've tried to bring up, in the

last debate I had in Houston, I raised the issue about,

well, what about, why didn't Jesus ever say a word?

Because people always say, well, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.

And I really, if you want to destroy your credibility with me, say

something like that, because that just shows such a shallow understanding of

Jesus's teaching about the law, the scriptures, the nature of the scriptures.

The definition of marriage.

All the rest of that stuff.

The very definition of marriage.

And so, go ahead.

No, I was just going to go to a listener question when you're finished.

Have you finished what you were about to say?

Sure.

Yeah, let's go to the question.

Okay, the aforementioned Susan from Newville, Pennsylvania, who led me to Christ in the 1980s.

What does James White think of Romans 1, verse 27, where Paul is talking about men

committing shameless sex with men and receiving in themselves the

due penalty for their error?

And how does a homosexual defend their stance with that verse?

Well, again, the side B people, we're focusing on that because that's what

the debate's going to be about.

The side B people, in general, would say, well,

let me give you an example.

Matthew Vines, who's on the side A, says Romans isn't relevant to him

because this is only about heterosexual males abandoning their wives to

have sex with other males because of an immoderate libido or desire for sexual activity.

Now, how you get that from Romans 1, I have no earthly idea.

But that's the idea.

I mean, that was the thing that amazed me when we wrote The Same Sex Controversy.

Even in 2001, there were already dozens of books, and it was hard to write that book because I had to read so

many of these books that I did not want to be reading.

And there have been hundreds that have come out since then.

And so Romans 1, the number of ways of getting around this, James Brownson,

his 2013 book, this is all about a

stoic understanding of human sexuality.

That's all Paul's talking about here is how the stoics were understanding things.

And I'm like, where did that come from?

I mean, there's just as many ways around a

text as there are people who want to get around a text.

And so the side A people will do just all sorts of things.

The side B people are basically going to say, this is only about those

who act on their desires and act on their inclinations and

violate biblical teaching regarding

sex only being between a male and a female in a marriage situation.

But that's not really dealing with what is revealed in Romans 1, because

you remember the look on Barry Lynn's face when

he tried to divide the Romans 1 up into two different lists.

And evidently that had worked for him on every CNN program he had been on up until that point in time.

But it didn't really work too well with me, especially when I've got a Greek New Testament in front of me,

and he's having to borrow my small print Bible, and which I couldn't read anymore anyways.

So I will give him that.

But I was asking him, so what are pathe atamias,

dishonorable passions?

A pathe can be positive or negative.

You can be passionate about God.

But this is dishonorable.

So what is this dishonorable passion?

Well, in this particular context, um, this is talking about women.

Maybe, in some people's opinion, that I wouldn't be able to argue against it, may be the only text

in all Scripture that addresses lesbianism.

And it's described as a pathe atamias.

It's dishonorable.

It's a dishonorable passion.

So if we're talking in this context, um, and then, of course,

in verse 27, you have, see, they're committing indecent acts.

So see, it's that commission.

It's not the actual desire.

But the problem is, it specifically says in verse 27,

that the men abandoned the natural function of the woman, of the

female, and burned in their desire toward one another.

So again, in both verses, you have pathe,

passions, and you've got desire, um, in verse

27.

And so there is mutuality, so much for all the excuses that this was, you know, slave and

master and older man and young boy, all this kind of stuff.

There is mutuality here in, just directly stated in verse 27.

They burned in their desire toward one another.

This is two males.

They have abandoned the natural function of the female.

And what they also do is when they talk about against nature, they go, well, Paul said that long hair is against nature.

We know that was just simply cultural.

But here you have a specific assertion of the natural use

of the female.

Now, again, another one of the excuses is, well, see there, there you go.

Um, we, we who are truly homosexual, don't have a natural use of a female.

We have no desire for a female.

This can't be about us, is the argument that is, that is made.

When obviously, Paul is a Jewish individual, has a Jewish

anthropology understanding of how babies are created and everything else.

And natural function obviously is the created anatomical reality

of how men and women have sexual relations.

Um, and that we're designed to do that over against an unnatural perversion of

that sexual relationship.

So in each, in both of these texts, you have description of

this kind of desire as being atamias, dishonorable.

And so the question for the side B gay Christian is, is

that desire that you have for another male atamias?

Is it dishonorable?

And if so, how can a Christian stop the battle

against that, which is dishonorable.

If you know that this is inappropriate in God's sight,

then how can you continue?

How can you say, well, God made me this way.

I don't, I don't need to, I don't need to change.

I don't need to continue to try to change.

I'm tired of trying to change.

It's not going to work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

How can you basically call a cease fire and say, God made me this way?

Um, Dr. Coles has said, I've stopped praying to be made straight.

God made me this way.

So are you saying that God made you to be

defined by pate atamias?

That to me, again, first Corinthians six here, uh, one of the things we

didn't mention so far, um, is it the same term?

Arson is used in first Timothy one.

And one of the things that misses everybody on that one, Bob Gagnon pointed this out.

Um, if you follow first Timothy one and you follow the sins,

Paul is going down the 10 commandments and he includes homosexuality

in the commandment against fornication.

He expands that commandment with that specific term about men in bed with men.

Um, and so that's to say that that somehow has been put aside in the new

covenant or something along those lines, not according to Paul, not when he's writing to Timothy as to how he's to

view these things in the church and deal with them in the church and things like that.

So yeah, these are, these are all key issues that hopefully

Dr. Coles will address straight up front.

Otherwise we'll have to spend the time during cross X getting foundations laid and then go, okay, in light of

that, how can gay Christian be appropriate given the

biblical description of dishonorable passions, um,

indecent acts, uh, natural function, uh, men with men.

And then of course, first Corinthians six, such were some of you.

Because if, if the, if the fundamental assertion is there is no change and most side B people

will say there's no change.

Once you have these desires, you will always have these desires.

Well, then how do you deal with first Corinthians six, 11 man?

How do you deal with people like a woman who's going to be my guest, uh,

coming up in the near future, Patty height, who is the founder of out of Egypt

ministries speaking at the tree of life church in, uh, Carlisle,

Pennsylvania, uh, coming up very soon.

Uh, she has been, according to her testimony, completely delivered from any

same sex attraction.

And not only was she participating in lesbian activities for

years, she battled, uh, gender confusion, uh, since,

since childhood, she thought she was a little boy and, uh, all of that has gone.

There's something that we haven't addressed, uh, in regards to Dr. Cole's because he views himself

as a gender minority and he views himself as part of the LGBTQ community.

And I don't understand how a Christian can view themselves in that way because LGBTQ

is an incoherent set of concepts.

And I think everybody recognizes that now.

Um, the T just destroys everything else that came.

You can't have an L.

You can't have a G.

You can't have a B if you have a T.

Okay.

It, it, it destroys all of it.

It's incoherent.

And so how you can be a part of a community, uh, that is based upon that level of

confusion.

Um, that's, that's another thing.

It's one thing, the, the homosexual movement pride opened the door,

but I've said many times, once the Bergefell dropped in June of 2015, it's like

a, a switch was thrown and the focus moved away from homosexuality

to transgenderism.

It's like, we've got that.

Okay.

We've got the ground.

We've got the culture.

Now we go for the kill and destroy, destroy the society, family,

any kind of rational understanding of human, of humanity by going after

male and female, um, which you can't do because homosexuality

requires those categories to exist.

But once that became the law of the land, quote unquote, next thing you do is you

now destroy the very foundations of, of any type of meaningful family structure or anything along those lines.

And that's where all the, that's where all of the, uh, focus turned.

And so I'm going to be asking, how, how can you talk about being a part of this community

when as a Christian, there, there isn't any question about the Bible's teaching about male and female.

There isn't any question about Jesus' teaching.

And if you're going to say that, that Jesus actually would agree with the transgender

movement, or at least have some kind of a, uh,

acceptance of it or, or sympathy for it.

Um, you don't get that from his teaching.

You don't get that from his strong response to the Sadducees in Matthew chapter 19, not

Sadducees, um, just the Jews that were trying to get them involved in the divorce question.

Um, and you're, you can't call you, you can't call that a Christian

perspective at all.

So I'll be interested in seeing what comes of that because I see that as, as being connected, uh,

to the claims that he's made.

What does it mean to be a gender minority?

What does it mean to be a part of the LGBTQ community?

How, how does a Christian, how is a Christian's identity in any way relevant

at that point?

That's, that's, that's tough for me to understand.

By the way, since I mentioned Patty Height, I just wanted to tell our listeners to mark your calendars for September 12th, 4 to

6 p .m. Eastern.

That's when Patty Height of Out of Egypt Ministries will be my guest.

And many of you who are waiting to have your questions asked will likely have to have them answered by Patty

Height because we are running out of time.

We only had one question, uh, answered and we'll, uh, have maybe time for one more

question before we run out of time, but we're going to our final break.

So if anybody, uh, does have a question, you're, you better send it in immediately.

Uh, because in fact, you might not as well, we already have too many people waiting for their questions anyway.

So we'll just take your questions, uh, when Patty Height is on the program.

So, uh, don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in

spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God centered focus, reading, preaching, and

hearing the word of God, singing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy,

and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

At gcbcnj .squarespace .com

that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com or

call them at 908 -996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureCom Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris

Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureCom Group provides the highest level of security, close circuit television, access control,

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording off

-site viewing and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureCom Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall

endpoint solutions and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureCom Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security

innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355.

Or visit securecomgroup .com.

That's securecomgroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureCom Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture.

Alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the

kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Fight.

PuritanPHX .com.

Anthony Uvinio.

Hello.

My name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the

host of the reformrookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar.

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

page.

We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

well as seasoned believers.

From Keach's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening.

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in

their homes.

That's why Truth.

Love.

Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good.

I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.

Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like

the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy

blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a

Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.

The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather,

making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to

ptlbiblerebinding .com.

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pikowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is my Bible.

Of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

Folks, I also want to announce that on Saturday, October 7th,

Alpha and Omega Ministries is celebrating their 40th anniversary of existence as a ministry

at Sovereign Grace Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

If you would like to attend this event, if you're able to, from 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. there in Phoenix,

send in your RSVP reservation to 40th

anniversary, that's four

zero with.

And I hope as many of you, especially those living in Arizona, can attend that

wonderful event, and we congratulate Dr. White and Rich Pierce on such a

landmark in ministry that has blessed the lives of countless

souls throughout the globe.

Also, I wanted to remind you that you've been hearing ads for the Historical Bible Society.

Please don't forget that that ministry was founded by Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, a

personal injury and medical malpractice attorney.

If you are the victim of a serious accident or medical malpractice anywhere in the world,

actually, I'm sorry, anywhere in the 50 states of the United States, please contact them at 1 -800

-NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

Please mention, if you contact Dan Buttafuoco, that you heard about his firm from Chris Arnzen of Iron

Trip and Zion Radio, that's very important.

And last but not least, you've been hearing ads for our friends at Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, a very fine, solid Reformed Baptist congregation.

The new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc

-nj .org, gcbc -nj .org.

We have Talbot in Manhattan, Kansas.

And Talbot says, most conservative theologians say that we

cannot rule out genuine born -again Christians having same

-sex attractions and battling with them.

But when do we draw the line?

Or should I say, where do we draw the line when it comes to how much of

this is a part of their thought and desire process?

When we say to them, I'm sorry, I cannot recognize you as a brother in Christ.

Well, that's really what the Side B issue is getting to.

And that's the danger.

It's one thing to say, I experience these things.

I know it's dishonoring to God, and therefore I will continue to fight these things.

It's another thing to say, it's the way God made me.

That's where the Side A, Side B stuff starts

bleeding into each other.

And once you get to that point, one of the things I've been thinking of is,

what's the logic of saying, well, I affirm that in Scripture,

marriage is between a man and a woman.

Okay, that's true.

But the Scripture is just as clear and straightforward that there is a need for washing,

sanctifying, and justifying in regards to same -sex desire.

So if you decide that the one battle can be given up, why hold on to the other one?

That's why I think, as I look back over time, I am seeing, I'm old enough

now, to be seeing this spectrum and this shift

from people who start off going, you know, because Brandon Robertson started off, when I first heard him, he's

like, I believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and I believe this, and I believe that.

And I just remember listening to him going, he's not going to continue believing those things,

not with the position that he's now taking.

It's not possible.

And within five, six years, that's exactly what happened, swinging now off

into the nether reaches.

And it just seems to me that the side B position is just a gateway

to eventually the side A affirmation of these things, because there's

no consistency in it.

And so I think, as to where to draw the line,

that's why local churches need to start talking about these things, and

elders need to be aware of these things, so there can be meaningful conversations with people.

Because it's true, we should be the first place that people are

willing to go, not for acceptance of who they are outside of

repentance, but acceptance of them with repentance.

And it's an honest question to ask, how many churches would be

overly accepting of someone who says, I'm going to need

regular pastoral attention, because this is my life, this is what

I've experienced, I don't want to experience it, I'm willing to do the fighting,

I want to see myself in the past tense verb in 1 Corinthians 6 .11.

How many churches would be willing to say, come on along, we'll walk beside you?

That's tough.

That's not easy to do, and it really requires a good foundation.

Is it ever inappropriate for a Christian to say to somebody who says,

I struggle so much with homosexual desire that it is really a prominent

aspect of my very being, is it proper for us to say, well, I don't mean to offend

you, I'm not trying to be nasty or cruel, but you really have to examine whether you are saved, and I'm going

to pray for you that the Lord completely delivers you from this,

so that your testimony will be more credible, and that you will share eternity with Christ,

along with me and everybody else who's praying for you.

I mean, because we seem to think that a person's feelings is more important

than where they spend eternity.

Right, yeah, no two ways about it.

And so, yes, my answer to that would be yes, that would be an appropriate thing to say, to

someone who says that.

Because I'd want to know what they understand repentance to mean, what they would understand taking

up the cross to mean.

There are all sorts of folks who have to fight all sorts of things every single day.

It's just like this one group claims, hey, this is natural for me,

and so I don't have to continue that battle.

That's definitely problematic.

And, well, this debate, we really want everybody to please pray for it.

Please pray.

By the way, Chris, do you know, will there be a live feed?

Oh, that I don't know.

If anybody wants those details, go to futureofchristendom .org.

Futureofchristendom .org.

I remember early on in the planning stages, that was the desire

of the folks at Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society who are running this, but I don't know 100

with certainty.

Okay.

But so please, folks, pray about this.

I apologize to those of you who could not have their questions asked and answered on the air, but

Dr. White was so thorough and wonderfully so in his answers that we just ran out of time.

And so please, we will submit some of your questions

to Patty Height on September 12th and also to Rosaria Butterfield on October 13th.

And I want to repeat, please register, if you haven't already, for the conference and debate

at futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org.

And also, make sure that you visit AOMIN .org, the Alpha and Omega

Ministries website, AOMIN .org, and find out more details.

By the way, James, I have an idea that I'm going to do.

Hopefully, I'm going to start maybe once a month having a debate on my show, and I

want to call it, Let's Take This Outside.

What do you think of that idea?

Well, anyway, thanks for being...

Go ahead.

And I appreciate your saying I was very thorough.

That's a nice way of saying long -winded.

I know what you're actually thinking.

I know you.

But I was delighted that you were long -winded and thorough, because I don't want short,

insufficient answers.

Anyway, we thank everybody who listened, and we hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.