September 6, 2023 Show with Dr. James. R. White on “The Same Sex Controversy” New Developments 20 Years After Its First Publication”

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day of September 2023.

And I cannot believe that the conference and debate we have been plugging daily on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for months now,

I can't believe it's next week. In fact, I was just jolted into reality when my guest today,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, reminded me that it is next

Friday, Saturday, and Sunday here in Pennsylvania, more specifically

Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is in Lancaster County, and even more specifically at the

Spooky Nook Sports and Events in Mannheim. That will be the

Future of Christendom Conference, and the theme is The Gospel at War.

There are a number of speakers who are going to be addressing various elements of where and when and how the gospel is at war with prominent things in society.

And included, I should say, in that three -day conference is going to be a debate that took me a long time to finally get someone to agree to face off with Dr.

White as his opponent, Dr. Gregory Coles, who identifies as a gay

Christian. And the theme of this debate will be, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a

Member of Christ's Church? And Dr. James R. White, I know I don't really need to give an introduction, but once in a while we have new believers listening and even members of other religions listening.

He is the author of numerous books. I don't even give a number anymore because I'm always wrong. There's always like 30 more than I thought.

He's a New Testament Greek scholar, a highly skilled and seasoned debater. He's a professor of apologetics and church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, one of four pastors of Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, and host of the

Dividing Line webcast. And today we are talking about the same -sex controversy, new developments 20 years after its first publication.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, my dear friend, Dr. James R. White. Well, it's good to be with you,

Chris. Coming to you live from Albuquerque, New Mexico today, where there's not a cloud in the sky.

It's beautiful here right now. Is it sweltering hot like it is here in Pennsylvania?

No, no, no, it's not too bad. I think it's supposed to hit like 90 -something, which given

I live in Phoenix, is actually rather nice. It's a much higher altitude here than Phoenix.

So, but yeah, I'm on the road heading toward Pennsylvania. I'll be in Amarillo tomorrow night speaking, and then just stops along the way until I get to Mannheim.

And so we need to pray that I don't get run over by a truck, you know, don't drive off the road, because, you know, the debate must go on.

And so you will be doing the debate if I'm not able to be there. So I'm sure you've read the same -sex controversy.

You were there for the Barry Lynn debate. You had all sorts of material.

You didn't get to use the Barry Lynn debate because you did not want to start a riot, and that was probably wise of you.

And that will be a repeat. That will be a repeat this time, because we're right near Lancaster Theological Seminary, which is a bastion of liberalism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And isn't it weird? Recently I started thinking about how many people

I've debated that are no longer on this planet. And that'll give you a really good feeling about how old you yourself are getting when you think about how many people you've debated that have already gone on to their rewards.

Well, actually, you know, you have mentioned in the past on this show that Barry Lynn is no longer with us, but several people have said, no, he's still alive.

And when I checked his, what do you call that, Wikipedia site, it refers to him as an is.

So I don't know what the story is with that. Well, I know that John Shelby Spong isn't around anymore.

And I was there for that one, too, in Florida. Yeah, yeah.

And I heard no end of the mockery against me since the debate was on homosexuality.

And in an elevator, John Shelby Spong complimented my tie. Well, there you go.

It would have been a little bit more dangerous if it was his wife that complimented your tie.

She was interesting. But yeah, no, I'm looking it up here. I thought for sure he he had kicked the bucket, too.

But I guess not. I don't see him anymore. He used to be on CNN and stuff like that all the time.

So, yeah. Oh, he was a constant. I'm wondering if we had any part in his retirement from.

I certainly haven't seen him doing any debate since then, because, boy, I'm going to tell you, he was not a happy camper that he is closing state.

Oh, well, remember that? Oh, yeah, because we had to get a hold of the

Alliance Defense Fund, now called the Alliance Defending Freedom, because Barry Lynn threatened a lawsuit against you if you distributed the video.

And thankfully, they told you, you've got to beat him to the punch. You've got to file a lawsuit, not for money, but for the rights to distribute the video.

And from what I remember, neither he nor his representative showed up at the hearing.

So, you were awarded the freedom to distribute the video. Yeah. Well, actually, they wanted to file in the

Ninth Circuit, which makes sense, you know, Ninth Circuit. And so, we beat him to the punch and filed in the, if I recall, it was the

First Circuit. It's whatever circuit is in Washington, D .C., because that's where you're supposed to do copyright issues and stuff like that.

And my recollection was that the day before our attorneys were to depose him, he agreed for the sum of one dollar to allow distribution of the of the video.

So, yeah, that's my recollection. But anyways, yeah, a guy who had testified before Congress that child pornography is guaranteed

First Amendment speech, you know, tried to sue us to suppress a video that he knew.

I mean, you had dealt with him. Yeah. He knew it was going to be recorded and it was meant to be for distribution.

In fact, I pointed out where the cameras were before the thing started. You know, he was like, you know, looking at the whole, examining the whole venue there, the

Central Presbyterian Church in Huntington, Long Island. And I don't know if you remember that. What's happened with them, by the way?

I don't know. I haven't touched base with them in years, but that's a good idea. I should look them up.

But I don't know if you remember. Yeah, because they were like the last PCUSA, you know, congregation that was trying to fight, you know, at that time.

I wonder what happened with them. I don't know. But I don't know if you remember this, but the debate that night almost got called off because the pastor who agreed enthusiastically to let us have the debate in his building, he must not have a clued in the one of the elders who shut up, shut up.

And he says to me, so what's going on here tonight? I'm like, well, it's a debate. It's a debate.

What's the debate on? James White is debating Barry Lynn of the

Americans United for a Separation of Church and State on is homosexuality compatible with biblical

Christianity? Oh, no, he's not. Not in this building. He's not. And I'm like, what do you mean?

And he said, I'm not going to let that happen. They're going to burn this place to the ground. And I said, I'm sorry, but your pastor gave us full permission and we're doing this debate.

And then he was like haggling with me. And he said, well, tell me how this debate is going to work.

And I told him, well, there's opening statements, rebuttals, cross examination. No, no, no cross examination.

I said, yes, there is. There's got to be. And then he finally was appeased when

I eliminated audience questions. And if you recall, that is why

Barry Lynn claimed he was suing you because they eliminated the audience questions.

That wasn't really. I didn't remember that part. Maybe you didn't tell me about it because that would really have complicated things.

I was I was more my my recollection is more about the fact that we had the Long Island Christian Bikers Association.

Who some people refer to as skinheads. Well, Joe, Joe Pesci, right?

Pesci, Parisi, Parisi, Joe Parisi. I remember his face.

At least I'd recognize him when I saw him. It would have been a lot more interesting if Joe Pesci was there. Are you talking to me?

You think I'm funny? You think I'm a clown or something? But thank

God that it it. And the thing that was ridiculous about Barry Lynn complaining about no audience questions, there were only about five homosexuals in the building.

It would not have served him well with to have. Well, and he was angry with the audience to begin with.

Yes. I mean, he would he was just railing at them in his closing statements.

I mean, wow. That's all he did. He didn't even give up. He didn't even give a closing statement. He said,

I'm not going to waste my time with you people. And he just used the time to mock everybody there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a meltdown. You know, this guy was in media and just gave you such a such a clear example of how he had never been challenged.

Yeah. Even back then. And that was what? Oh, one two thousand one. Yeah. Yeah. Even back then, they were already just throwing softballs.

And during the cross examination, when I had to lend and the fascinating thing is you've seen this twice now, the debate with him and the debate with Spong.

I had to lend them Bibles for a debate on whether the homosexuality is consistent with Christianity.

Neither one of them brought a Bible and I had to let them borrow a Bible. Yep. I remember. In fact, you had to silence the audience from chuckling about that.

I believe so. Yes. Well, before we go into the main theme of your book, the same sex controversy and new developments 20 years after its first publication.

Tell us something. Tell our listeners about something about this upcoming debate, especially that as a part of the three day conference next weekend,

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, September 15th, 16th and 17th in Manhattan, Pennsylvania. Dr.

Gregory Coles, as I already mentioned, is your opponent. He is taking a different approach than many so -called pro homosexual scholars would take, although not completely different, according to your studies with his work or of his work.

But it was interesting. As you know, I was contacting every single person that I was aware of within driving distance to Lancaster, who was a professing homosexual.

Some of those, including people that were openly advocating the physical activity of homosexuality, even as a

Christian or a professing Christian. And then, you know, there was there's a wide spectrum, isn't there, of people in that whole orbit?

Yeah. And I think the challenge I'm going to have, and I do consider this to be a very challenging debate, is a lot of evangelicals do not understand a lot of the language that is developed.

Various groups that have developed side A, side B, affirming, non -affirming, all of this kind of language leaves most of us just a tad bit confused.

Dr. Coles represents the side

B, celibate, gay Christianity perspective.

And so there are a number of people that fit into this particular group.

They're not necessarily identical with one another, but it seems that a lot of people will start off once they, quote unquote, come out of the closet saying, well,

I'm an Orthodox Christian and I have an Orthodox Christian understanding of sexuality and marriage.

And so I don't believe that I should pursue what my desires are, even though the assertion is this has always been their, quote unquote, orientation.

And obviously terms like orientation are not coming to us from Scripture, they're coming to us from church history.

But what's happened is they've been accepted and they have become so mainstream that evangelicals, once they accept that idea, struggle to deal with, well, if that's all you know, if that's all the desires that you have, then we have to deal with people where they are.

And so, you know, we can't tell people they're going to be alone the rest of their lives and they're going to get old and not have anyone around them.

And so everything gets really confusing when you start looking at, you know, when you looked at Matthew Vines, when you looked at author of Torn, Justin Lee, you follow all of them over time and you see movement away from,

I mean, Brandon Robertson. I remember when I first heard him, probably 2014, 2015, 2016, somewhere around in there, you know, he was doing the

I'm a Orthodox Christian type of a thing.

And as I listened to him speaking, I don't know if you saw when Jeff Durbin and I last year did a program with him, he had obviously swung way off to the left.

I mean, now he was the one who's got the famous tick tocks where he's talking about how Jesus, you know, was a racist and sinned and, you know, stuff like this.

And and that's from having been allegedly a position of orthodoxy only a small amount of time before that, just a few years before that.

And so you see movement and all of the Matthew Vines is certainly much farther to the left than he was when he first did that presentation he did at the church in Kansas that I did like a five hour response to.

And so there seems to be a desire initially on these people's parts to maintain this position of orthodoxy.

But time wears it down. And with Gregory Coles, he is a writer.

He's an excellent writer. His Ph .D. is in English. And he likes writing prose and things like that.

He's a very nice guy. And so you can go online, put in Gregory Cole's talk, presentation, whatever, and you'll see all sorts of places where he's in churches presenting a side

B position, which is I have

I am gay. So his book is titled Single Gay Christian.

I'm gay. That's all I've that's all I've ever experienced that that kind of desire.

He does not believe that same sex attraction terminology is good terminology.

So that sets him apart from a number of number of other people. And he has led music continues to believe that he should be in leadership in churches in that way.

But he says, I affirm a biblical understanding of marriage as between a man and woman.

And he's a part of the Center for Sexuality, Gender and Faith, I think is what it is that Preston Sprinkles, the president of.

And so they affirm that. Marriage has to have complementarity involved, there has to be a man and woman.

And so he says, that means. I need to be celibate my life, my entire life,

I'm not I'm not looking for and don't believe that I could have a relationship with a man called marriage.

And so this was part of this was the revoice perspective as well.

Right. So so many in the PCA, which is many in the PCA who are otherwise biblically sound, endorsed that.

Right, though, my understanding is PCA has now taken a very clear stand against it.

Right. But many of those people are still PCA that affirmed it. Yeah, yeah,

I know. But at least, you know, got to look for the positive where you can find it. Right.

And so. Where most Christians struggle is with this idea of the insertion of orientation.

Right. Into the conversation, because. Normally with that.

Is included in certainly with Dr. Coles is included the idea that this is innate.

Right. It is the way God made him. And he's not looking to change.

And so this is where you get the difference between this form of gay

Christianity. And what you'll get with American Family Association, MD Perkins, Rosario Butterfield has a book coming out in six days.

And she will be on my show on Friday, the 13th of October, just to let our listeners know. Right.

So her book comes out on the 12th. I'm going to try to have her on as well. Maybe I don't know if we'll do it before the debate or maybe do as afterwards, sort of as a discussion that way.

But, of course, I've been reading her book. And, you know, there are a number of people who have taken a complete opposite perspective.

So circling around to the issue of the book that Jeff Neal and I wrote.

In 2000, 2001, that.

We did, in fact, Jeff toward the end of the book, as we divide the book up and instead of him writing something that me adding stuff that I read,

I wrote certain chapters, he wrote certain chapters. And in his chapters, he saw the beginnings of these types of arguments, but they weren't really mainstream yet.

And so he did deal with issues such as, well, is the desire itself sinful?

Because side B Christianity, side B gay Christianity says, no, it's not.

There is nothing sinful about a male desiring another male.

In fact, that that was the reason your opposition to the acceptability of the desire was the reason that some of the major so -called

Christian ministries that were an outreach to the homosexual community, believing that the activity is sin.

They wouldn't endorse the book because of that. Right, right. So that's been a that's been an issue all along, but now it's absolutely central.

I mean, this is what defines. Why it is that Dr. Coles and Preston Sprinkle and a large number of what we would call generally evangelical churches have bought into the idea of gay

Christianity. And we'll say, well, yeah, you have to be celibate, but this is this is an innate issue and therefore you can't address it in the same way that you would address other issues of sin.

What was Zaria will explain and MD Perkins and others in that area, what they will explain is that if you take that perspective.

You no longer have anything to offer in a way of hope. To the person experiencing same sex attraction, homoerotic attraction that does not want to have it.

You're basically saying Christianity cannot offer you the hope of change.

In fact, can you pick up right where you left off there with me? Because we have to go to our first commercial break. If anybody has a question, send it to Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com.

Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, we'll be right back. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic

Reformation Society presents the future of Christendom. The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

Featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, a personal journey of faith and sexual identity.

The debate topic is gay Christian, a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ Church. So come join us for the 6th

Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania. And will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday. With an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching.

With a theme of the Gospel at War in many areas of our culture. Including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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TR only issue, and you gave her a big sympathy hug for maintaining a friendship with me for decades.

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Gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Before the break, you were saying that if you concede that there is nothing sinful inherently about the condition or state of being of being a homosexual, something that you embrace as an identity.

Identity is a Christian. If you concede to that, you're saying that there is nothing that Christianity can offer to the person that is miserable in that state.

Right. That's where you left off. I believe. Yeah, that's going to be as far as I can tell, is going to be absolutely central to the conversation, especially to the

Congress, the cross examination period. And that is in First Corinthians six, nine through 11.

Now, Dr. Coles has said some things. We have to clarify some things. He has said some things that make me wonder if there isn't a difference in his views and Preston Sprinkles views.

In regards to the key term arson, a case that is found in First Corinthians six, nine and first Timothy one, 10.

Because Dr. Sprinkle in his presentations for the

Center for Sexuality and Gender and so on and so forth had pretty much given what

I would consider to be a solid recognition of the fact that that term found in Scripture.

Is. Paul's use is the earliest we know of, there's one other use that may be earlier, but most people would agree that that Paul's the first person to use this.

So is he coining it himself? Is he taking it from a rabbinic source that we don't have any written evidence of from a later point in time?

But it's plainly derived from two words, male penetrator, male.

I'm sorry, male penetrator. Male better, yes, it's what men when when

Jeff and I. When Jeff and I. The book came about, by the way.

I suppose we should start with this. The book came about. I remember hearing from Jeff, Jeff's now pastor of a

CRC church, but back in this time he was at a sort of a.

I don't remember if it was a Baptist church or not, but it was the CRC really wasn't going yet. And.

I remember talking to him for some reason. We'd go climb Squaw Peak together, do stuff like that, play tennis.

We're both old guys now, but he told me that he had done a series for his church on homosexuality.

Now, the late 90s, 2000, 2001, that was really unusual to do.

You know, I grew up in a in a in a time frame where you just didn't you didn't talk about stuff like that church, which put us behind the behind the eight ball, basically, really.

And. So. What had happened was both he and I, he was a year ahead of me at Grand Canyon College.

And so. We took the same Greek classes, the same Greek professor, and we sort of had a competition going as to who had the best scores in Greek and stuff like that.

And. We knew this one guy at Grand Canyon.

Who became the chaplain of either the House or the Senate, Arizona State House or Senate at some point, but as a homosexual, he came out as a homosexual.

We both known him in college. And so I don't remember who how this worked out, but I used to do a lot of radio programs with Marty Minto.

Oh, yeah. And he had a he had a drive time program in Phoenix on KPXQ.

Same company I work for. In fact, I filled in for a few times. In fact, that that alleged debate, it wasn't a debate.

The conversation that Dave Hunt and I had that eventually led to Dave Hunt writing

What Love Is This? Was when I was filling in for Marty and I interviewed

Dave Hunt on a newsletter, a Breen call newsletter he had done attacking reform theology.

And so I don't remember who contacted who or how it worked out, but long story short.

Well, it's already a long story. Jeff and I, just being honest,

Jeff and I were invited to come in and have a conversation with this chaplain homosexual and another homosexual on Marty Minto's drive time program on the subject of homosexuality.

And so. I woke up that morning with the worst headache of my adult life.

And we're talking a migraine. It was so bad that light sensitivity, nausea. It was horrible.

And thankfully, I was able to get to a chiropractor at three o 'clock in the afternoon, get my neck put back where it needed to be.

And so by five o 'clock when the program started, I was at least functional.

And during the course of that radio debate. Jeff addressed the meaning of arson, a coitus, arson, a coitus, plural in First Corinthians 6 -9.

As that what men do with men in bed. And it does, coitus is to go to bed with or to penetrate.

So, yes, there is that meaning. And so if it wasn't

Paul that derived it. Then a maybe a rabbinic source close to him or it might have been him.

It seems to me, Dr. Sprinkle accurately represented that background.

And I've had a number of advocates for homosexuality who will admit that that is what the term means.

There are many others who try to come up with a what I would call revisionist understanding of what the term means.

That it refers to a young man slave to an older man.

You know, this type of situation rather than the mutuality that is clearly in Romans 1.

And it may well be in First Corinthians 6 -9. That the two terms that are used here.

Molokoi and arson, a coitus, both plurals. Most translations have effeminate and then homosexuals.

The ESV translates just both as homosexuals. Understanding arsonic coitus to be the dominant partner and Molokoi to be the receiving partner.

There's argument about that. Even from Orthodox people who would otherwise say, yeah, homosexuality is not wrong.

But there's something wrong with effeminacy too. And if you translate them both as homosexual, then you lose that element.

Not going to get into that right now. It didn't seem to me that Dr. Coles is quite that sold out on the meaning of arsonic coitus.

And that's going to have to be clarified right at the beginning. And I may make it a part of my presentation to ask him that.

So maybe in the first rebuttal, we will already have gotten to that point. Otherwise, that will be the first question out of my mouth during cross -examination.

How certain are you as to the meaning of this term? The reason is where it appears in 1

Corinthians 6. And the fact that verse 11, finally getting back to our point. Verse 11 begins, and such were some of you.

Hallelujah. Not such are some of you. Right. But this is an imperfect verb.

I've looked at the manuscripts. There's no textual variation involved. Such were some of you.

But, and then you have apoluo. You were washed.

Then you have hagiadzo. You were sanctified. You were made holy.

Then you have dikayao. You were justified. And the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit of our

God. So, anybody on the side

B, because everybody on the side B wants to say, hey,

I believe in the resurrection of Christ. I believe in justification by faith. I believe in all the central doctrines of the

Christian faith. And I believe the Bible is the word of God, and I believe it's authoritative. They all want to say that.

And that's, I hope that's true. But the method of interpretation that you're going to bring to that text, if you believe it is a consistent revelation from God.

When I sit here and look at 1 Corinthians 6 .11, as a person who has taught

Greek on both the basic and advanced levels of graduate level studies. I look at this and I go, and such were some of you.

So, here is an assertion that the preceding list of people who are excluded from the kingdom.

Because, do not be deceived, is what he says. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, feminine, homosexuals, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

And then you have an adversative statement.

And such were some of you, but then these things happen.

And that's why they are now a part of the kingdom of God, in the family of God.

That's really the only way the language can be dealt with. And gay

Christianity, and I don't know where Dr. Coles is going to come down on this.

Because everything that I've read and listened to him, so far, has basically said he does not believe that you can change.

There can be no change. And so, my understanding would be, he would look at these as active descriptions that don't describe him.

Because he's celibate. And so, the were would only be relevant to people who had acted on their desires in the past.

And hence, needed to be washed, sanctified, justified. So, the whole idea of that is, the desire for that which is displeasing to God, is not itself displeasing to God, and does not require washing, sanctification, and justification.

Otherwise, yeah. No, no, you go ahead. No, you wanted to say, and by the way.

Okay, well I was just going to say that, from my memory, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because you've had a lot more debates than I've personally arranged for you.

But this seems to be the first time that I can recall you ever saying, I don't know where he's going, before the debate.

Yeah, well, there's two reasons for that. One is, this was, you know, you know that, for example, when

I debated Spong, I had like four to six months to prepare. So, I read all of his books, everything, you know, listened to all sorts of lectures.

Bart Ehrman, more than six months. Dr. Price, more than six months.

This was fairly recent. And so, but beyond that, there is an, there is a,

I think, somewhat purposeful ambiguity in the side

B position. And that's why I'm saying, I'm sensing different takes, even between Preston Sprinkle and Gregory Coles, even though they're both part of the same group.

And, of course, you've got different viewpoints from people that are part of the same group. We'll have different viewpoints there at the conference, really.

Presbyterians and Baptists, we'll take different emphases and stuff like that. That's not overly surprising.

But I have not, one of the things that really disappointed me is, I watched an interview that Gregory Coles had at this church.

And this pastor, I, it was very frustrating. There was no pushback.

It was just all happy, clappy, whatever you say, I agree with it type stuff. And it would be, would have been more helpful to me if there had been, well, you say that, but what about this?

What about those who would say this? You don't have to be mean and angry about it. You can just say, but I've heard some pretty smart people say this type of a situation.

You didn't get any of that. And so you didn't get the needed clarifications. And in that particular situation,

Gregory had spoken, he had done the sermon before the conversation. And so the conversation about arsenic coites was in the sermon, not a part of the conversation afterwards.

And so he just simply referred people to what he'd already said. So there just wasn't any clarification. There wasn't any, well, where would you come down on this?

And the problem is Dr. Coles likes to tell stories. And he says that, single gay

Christian, he raises the most problematic parts of his position in hypotheticals.

That way you can say, now I'm not, I never really suggested, it was just a hypothetical. So he specifically tells a story about how he and his dad used to talk about what things would have been.

Would there have been mosquitoes prior to the fall? Okay. So this type of hypothetical conversation.

And so he raises the hypothetical conversation. What would

I have been before the fall? What would my desires have been? If God made me this way, then before the fall, how would that have manifested itself?

Now that's a way of making an argument that his orientation is given to him by God.

And that's why he's not seeking to change it. But it's an argument without having to make the argument because it's just a hypothetical anyways.

And in the debate, he's not going to be able to just use hypotheticals.

I'm going to ask him directly, but that hasn't happened yet. So that's why

I'm saying, I don't know. There is a, I think somewhat purposeful ambiguity inside the

Christian polemics. Like I said, I spent the money to take this leader's course.

I haven't finished it, but I've done most of the important stuff from that center with Preston Sprinkle.

And in that, he starts off with these stories, telling stories about people.

And that is prior to any examination of scripture. And then it goes back to story, story, story, story, story.

So it's the narrative that is driving the exegesis and interpretation.

Once you push past that, what's the answer is going to be? I honestly don't know. We'll find out next week.

But that's why I said this could be very, very challenging because most evangelicals are still operating on a viewpoint from the 90s on this subject.

It's just a black and white thing. And that's why our young people are absorbing the cultural perspectives on these things.

Rather than there being clarity in the church on the issues of desire and whether orientation is an appropriate descriptor from a

Christian perspective of sin and how humans are created, issues like this.

So yeah, I want to give him the opportunity of defining his position.

Because we've got to drill down to, do you believe that the desire for that which is opposed to God's law and God's creation?

He may say, it's not opposed to how God created me. And so that's where side

B starts bleeding into side A. Side A being affirming, go ahead and get married, same -sex acts aren't sinful, etc.

That's where Brandon Robertson is now. That's where it starts bleeding in and starts getting confusing and difficult necessarily to figure out what's what.

So this is why I'm telling people, this isn't going to be an easy conversation. I hope that it's not going to be like what happened when

I debated Justin Lee. Most people haven't heard that debate. I'm not sure exactly why.

I think it's because it's, no, I think it is on YouTube. Didn't I send you a link? It's only on audio. We didn't have video.

Yes, in fact, he was one of the people I approached and did not get an acceptance to the invitation.

By the way, pick up on Justin Lee when we come back from our midway break. Please be patient with us, folks.

The midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day, in morning drive and in the evening as a rerun.

They are required by the FCC to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're physically located.

So they use this middle break to air their public service announcements and other local things while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

So please be patient with us. We'll be right back after these messages. Please do not go away. The Mid -Atlantic

Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

So come join us for the 6th Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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That's also the e -mail address where you can send in a question to Dr. James R. White regarding the same -sex controversy, new developments 20 years after its first publication.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before the break, Dr. White, you were talking about Justin Lee, if you want to pick up where you left off.

Thank you for the reminder, because I wouldn't have had any idea what we were talking about. Short -term memories, pretty much shot,

I'm afraid. It's bad. But no, I had an entire presentation lined out for that debate.

It was up in Montana. And there's some background to all that that's really interesting.

But anyway, I could tell when I met Justin when he got out there that if I gave that presentation, that he would walk out of the room and there would be no debate.

Wow. And so on the fly, I totally redid everything to just do what

I could to try to get us to the point of being able to have the necessary conversation.

And it did work out. It was more pastoral than my presentation normally would have been,

I suppose. But, yeah, there is a sense in which when dealing with many of these individuals, they have internalized the idea that opposition to their stated position is personal attack upon them.

And I'm hoping to avoid that next week as much as possible.

But you have to be able to ask straightforward questions. You just have to.

So it's interesting because when Jeff and I did that radio debate, by the way, it was that radio.

Steve Lobby, who worked for Bethany House Publishers, heard the radio debate. He's in Phoenix.

And in fact, Jeff had worked for Steve when Steve was manager of the Breeding Christian Bookstore right next to Grand Canyon College.

And so there was already a connection with Steve. I was already writing books for Bethany House. And he heard that radio debate and contacted us.

We didn't run off to Bethany House to say we want to write a book on homosexuality.

He heard the conversation on the radio and contacted us and said, what do you think?

Do you think you two could write a book on that subject? Because there wasn't much back then, honestly.

And I was a little hesitant, but with. With Jeff's background and having led these studies,

I'm like, yeah, let's let's do it. And so I did the chapters on.

I know I did some Gamora. Pretty sure I did Romans one. And.

Honestly, that was some of the first times that I graduated from seminary. And I couldn't have told you what the what they call the six clobber passages work.

I don't think most Christians know, even to this day. What the six unquestionable passages are specifically make reference homosexuality.

I think there's more. There's good evidence that a lot of the temple prostitution passages and like first kings and things like that would be relevant as well.

But I graduated in seminary. We didn't have any conversation about it. And in fact. In the independent fundamentalist

Baptist and Southern Baptist context in which I grew up. You just didn't talk about stuff like that at church that was just not considered appropriate.

And one of the things I appreciated, I remember meeting when Jeff and I started laying out the book.

One of the first things he said to me is. We can't fall into the trap. Of only dealing with the negative passages.

One of the problems is people don't have a positive biblical understanding of marriage, sexuality, creation, order, all the rest, that kind of stuff.

And if I were to criticize. Much of what has been said in response to the homosexual movement.

That's one of the things I'd have to criticize. Is I still hear a lot of people.

They'll just quote those passages. I can sort of tell by the way they're quoting those passages.

That they. They don't know what the context is. They don't have a biblical theology of sexuality.

And in that context, I can understand why homosexuals would call them the clobber passages.

Because you just you just beat me over the head with it. You're not showing that you've actually thought through these issues and can present a positive case.

Or why, for example, you're fundamentally. Altering the image of God in yourself.

By indulging same sex desire or action. There is. So Jeff was like that.

We need it. We need to have. Fuller orbed presentation. So I thank him for that.

And. That was also when. Without trying to. By. Dealing with especially.

I think I've told you before. I did an entire sermon series at PRBC.

On the Holiness Code. I think there's 35 or 38 sermons. Where we went through not just the

Holiness Code in Leviticus. But I went into Deuteronomy. Basically, I.

I covered every tough text in the Old Testament. That had to do with law.

The ones that no one ever wants to touch. And. I started that series off by doing something that I can.

I know had never happened at PRBC before. And that was. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

I played. Right. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. I. I played.

The infamous. West Wing. Encounter. Right. Martin Sheehan with the pig skin and all that.

That's right. Exactly. I played that whole thing. And I said, look. This is how the world.

Thinks. This is what they're going to throw at you. And the reason this is effective and efficient.

Is because we don't know how to deal with pig skin. And we haven't read the

Holiness Code. And we don't know. I mean. I remember. I remember when

David Gushie. Dr. David Gushie. The Baptist. Ethicist. Became an advocate.

Of the homosexual movement. And he spoke at Matthew Vines. Reformation conference.

I remember him saying we. We need. To have. A Christian ethic.

That does not simply call. From Leviticus. But instead.

Tells us. That we are to love our neighbors. As ourselves. I think

I was riding bike. Which I did a whole lot more back then. I'm still doing it. But. And about crashed.

Because as. You know. When Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself. Where does that come from?

It comes from Leviticus 19. It's smack dab in the middle of the Holy. Right. You're just like.

Oh. Oh, how did. Wow. How did that even happen? So. We do need to have that positive.

Understanding of all of these things. And it's. It's not. A general part of how. These topics are preached.

In the church today. And. That's what's causing so. So much of the confusion.

And that's. I think what's leading people. To. Being confused.

By the argumentation. Being put forward. By side. Be gay. Christianity. Is that they go.

Hey. These guys are saying. They need to be sell. These celibate. These guys are not. Saying. That. That there shouldn't be.

Gay marriage. Well. They're not actually saying. There shouldn't be. They're just saying that for them. Right. That's not appropriate.

I noticed. The presence. Sprinkle. One of the stories. He told. Was of a. Married homosexual.

Couple. And he used the term. Wife. Of. The woman. In a lesbian relationship. And so.

They are. Not. As strong on that. As. As they should be. But.

Evangelicals hear that. And they go. Oh. Well. Good. This is. I can. I can. Go with where.

These people are going from. And not be as much. Hated by the world. Right. Because. The world is basically saying.

If. If you hold to. A traditional. Christian morality. You're a bigot.

And you can get fired. And HR is going to call you in. And. You know. The whole nine yards.

And I think that's where a lot of this. Is coming from. But because they don't have. The full. Orb. Understanding.

Of things. Then they don't see where this is. Leading. And where it leads is.

You don't have a message of hope. For a person. Who doesn't want to be. Attracted. To.

The same person. And wants that washing. And that justification. That sanctification. And you're saying.

No. That's. That's not for you. And that's a. That's a real problem. Well. Before I go to.

Some listener questions. I just wanted to. I don't know. If Gregory Coles. Is listening. But I do want to thank him. Again.

For being the only. Candidate. To participate in this. Debate. For very quickly.

And graciously. And enthusiastically. Accepting. The invitation. To debate.

Dr. White. In fact. He. Immediately. Said that he'd like.

To debate. You. When I presented. The original. Theme. Is homosexuality.

Compatible. With biblical. Christianity. And he said. Well I'd love to debate. Dr. White. But not on that theme.

And he explained. A little bit. About his. Opposition to same sex marriage. And chastity.

And so on. So I said. Well. How about. Is gay. Christian. A biblically. Acceptable.

Identity. For a member. Of Christ. Church. And he immediately said. Great. Let's do it. So. I'm so thankful to him.

And. In a. In a world. Where. Those.

Of a more. Liberal. Bent. Are just shouting. Down. The opposition.

And trying to disrupt. And prevent. Public discourse. From. Occurring.

It's great. That there is. Somebody. Like. Dr. Coles. Who is willing. To. Be involved.

In something. Involving. A very. Serious. Difference. In the body. Of Christ. Am I right.

Well. Yeah. And. We just had. A little. Little hiccup. There. But hopefully. I'm still here. Obviously.

It's. Easier. There's. There's. More. Negative. Emotion.

Coming. From the. A side. Than the B side. But. My concern. Honestly.

Is. That this. Is a harder. Conversation. To have. Because. The issues.

Aren't as clearly. Defined. Right. And. Most. Christians.

Have. In a church. Have never heard. A discussion. Of. Orientation. And. It is.

Already. It's just. It's just. Become. Such a. A part. Of our culture.

Already. That to try. To. To. And. I remember. When. When. Al Moller.

In 2014. After he. Dialogued. With Matthew Vines. He came out. And he wrote an article. And I remember listening to him.

On the briefing. Going. I was wrong. To deny. There is such a thing. As sexual orientation. I repent of that.

And. I was like. I'm not sure. What to do with that.

Still not. Right. Sure. What to do with that. Right. As to where that ends up leading. But. It's a.

It's not nearly. As cut and dried. As people would like it to be. It's not because. The scriptures. Aren't clear on it.

It's that we are allowing. Extra biblical categories. Coming from culture. To determine.

What scripture. Can and cannot address. And there's just. A lot of people. That believe. Look. People back then.

Just didn't know. What we know today. They didn't know. About sexual orientation. And I. I've. I've brought up.

I've tried to bring up. In the last debate. I had. In Houston.

I. I raised. The issue. About. What about. Why didn't. Jesus. Ever say.

A word. Because. People always say. Well. Jesus never mentioned. Homosexuality. And I. I really.

If you want to destroy. Your credibility. With me. Say something like that. Because.

That just shows. Such a shallow understanding. Of. Jesus's teaching. About the law.

The scriptures. The nature of the scriptures. The definition of marriage. All the rest of that stuff. The very definition of marriage.

Right. And so. Go ahead. No. I was just going to. Go to a. Listen to a question.

When you're. When you're finished. Have you finished. What you were going to. Say. Sure. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go to the question.

Okay. The aforementioned. Susan. From Newville Pennsylvania. Who led me to Christ. In the 1980s.

What does James White. Think of Romans. Chapter one. Verse. Twenty seven. Where Paul is talking about.

Men committing. Shameless. Sex. With men. And receiving. In themselves.

The due. Penalty. For their error. And how does a homosexual. Defend their stance.

With that verse. Well. Again.

The. The side. Be. People. So we're. Focusing on that. Because that was. That's what the debate's.

Going to be about. Right. The side. Be. People. In general.

Would say. Well. So. Let me give you. An example.

Matthew. Vines. Who's on the. Side. A. Says Romans. Isn't relevant.

To him. Because this is. Only about. Heterosexual. Males. Abandoning their.

Wives. To have sex. With other. Males. Because of an. Immoderate.

Libido. Or desire. For sexual activity. Now. How you get that.

From Romans. Right. I have. No earthly idea. But that's. The idea. I mean.

That was the thing that. Amazed me. We wrote. The same sex. Controversy. Even in 2001. There were already.

Dozens of books. And it was hard. To write that book. Because I had to read. So many of these books. That I did not want to be reading.

And there have been. Hundreds. That have come out. Since then. And so.

Romans. One. The number. Of ways. Of getting around this. James. Brownson. His 2013.

Book. This is all. About. A stoic.

Understanding. Of human sexual. That's all. Paul's talking about here. Is. Is. How the stoics.

Were understanding things. And I'm like. Where'd that come from? I mean. There's.

There's. There are. There's just as many ways. Around a text. As there are people.

Who want to get around. A text. And so. The side.

Eight. People will do. Just all sorts of things. The side. B. People. Are.

Basically. Going to say. This is only. About those. Who act. On. Their desires.

And act. On their inclinations. And violate. Biblical. Teaching.

Regarding. Um. Sex. Only. Being between. A male.

And a female. In a marriage situation. But that's not really. Dealing. With. What is revealed.

In Romans. One. Because. You know. You remember. The look.

On Barry. Lynn's. Face. When. He tried. To divide. The. Romans.

One. Up into two different. Lists. And evidently. That had worked. For him. On every CNN. Program.

He had been on. Up until. That point. Done. But it didn't really work. Too well.

With me. Um. Especially when you. I've got a Greek New Testament. In front of me. And.

He's having to borrow my. Small print Bible. And which I couldn't read anymore. Anyways. So. Uh.

I. I will give him that. But. You know. I was asking him. So. What are.

Path. A. Autonomous. Dishonorable. Passions. Um. A.

Path. A. Can be positive. Or negative. You can be. Passionate. About God. Um.

But this is. Dishonorable. So. What is this. Dishonorable.

Passion. Well. In this particular. Context. Um. This is talking about.

Women. Maybe. In some people's opinion. That. I. I. I. Wouldn't be able to argue against it.

Maybe the only. Text in all. Scripture. That addresses. Lesbianism.

And. It's described. As a. Path. A. Autonomous. It's dishonorable. It's a dishonorable.

Passion. So. If. If we're talking.

In this context. Um. And then. Of course. Uh. In verse.

27. You have. See they're committing indecent. Acts. So see it's.

It's that commission. It's not the actual desire. Right. But the. Problem is. It. It specifically says. In. Verse.

27. That the men. Abandoned. The natural. Function.

Of the woman. Of the female. And burned. In their desire.

Toward one another. So again. In both. Verses. You have.

Path. A. Passions. And you've got. Desire. Um. In.

Verse. 27. And so. There is mutuality. So much for all the excuses. That this was.

You know. Slave. And master. And. Older man. And. Young boy.

All this kind of stuff. There is mutuality. Here in. Very. Just directly.

Stated. In verse. 27. They burned. In their desire. Toward one another. This is two males.

They have abandoned. The natural. Function. Of the free. Of the female. And. What they also do is.

When they talk about. Against nature. They go. Well. Paul said that. Long hair is against nature. We know that was just simply.

Cultural. But here you have a specific. Uh. Assertion.

Of the natural. Use. Of the female. Now. Again.

Another one of the excuses. We'll see there. There you go. Um. We. We. Who are truly homosexual.

Don't have a natural. Use of a female. We have no desire. For a female. This can't be about us.

Uh. Is the argument. That is. That is made. When. Obviously. Paul is a

Jewish. Individual. Has a. Jewish. Anthropology. Understanding of. How babies are created.

And everything else. Uh. And natural. Function. Obviously. Is the. Created. Anatomical.

Reality. Of. How men and women. Have sexual relations. Um. And. That were designed.

To do that. Uh. Over against. An unnatural. Perversion. Of that sexual. Relationship.

So. In each. In both of these. Texts. You have. Description. Of this.

Kind of desire. As being. Autonomous. Dishonorable. And so.

The question. For the side. Be gay. Christian. Is. Is. That desire.

That you have. For another. Male. Autonomous. Is it dishonorable.

And if so. How can a Christian. Stop the battle.

Against that which is dishonorable. If you know that this is. Inappropriate.

In. God's. Sight. Then. How can you. Continue. How can you say.

Well God made me this way. I don't. I don't need. Change. I don't need to continue to try to change.

I'm tired of trying to change. It's not going to work. Etc. Etc. Etc. How can you basically. Call a ceasefire.

And say. God made me this way. Um. Dr. Coles has said.

I've. Stopped praying. To be made. Straight. God made me this way. So.

Are you. Saying that God. Made you. To be. Defined. By. Path.

Autonomous. That. To me. Again. First Corinthians. Six. Here. Um.

One of the things we didn't mention. So far. Um. Is it. The same. Term. Is. Used.

In. First Timothy. One. And. One of the things that. Misses. Everybody. On that one. Bob Gagnon.

Pointed this out. Um. If you follow. First Timothy. One. And you follow the sins.

Paul is going down. The 10 commandments. And he includes. Homosexuality.

In the commandment. Against. Fornication. He expands. That. Commandment. With that specific term.

About men. In bed with men. Um. And so. That's.

To say that. That somehow. Has been. Put aside. In the new covenant. Or something. Along those lines.

According to Paul. Not when he's writing. According to Timothy. As to how he's. View these things. In the church.

And deal with them. In the church. And things like that. So. Yeah. These are. These are all key issues.

That. Hopefully. Dr. Coles. Will address. Straight up front.

Otherwise. We'll have to spend the time. During cross X. Getting. Foundations laid. And then go. Okay. In light of that.

How can gay. Christian. Be appropriate. Given. The biblical.

Description. Of. Dishonorable. Passions. Indecent. Acts.

Natural. Function. Men. With men. And then. Of course.

First. Corinthians. Six. Such were. Some of you. Because. If. The. Fundamental.

Assertion is. There is no change. And. Most side. B people. Will say. There is no change.

Once. You have. These. Desires. You will. Always have. These. Desires. Well. Then. How do. You deal with. First. Corinthians. Six. Eleven. Man.

How do. You deal with. People. Like. A woman. Who's going to be. My guest. Coming up.

In the near future. Patty. Height. Who is. The founder of. Out of Egypt. Ministries.

Speaking at. The tree of life. Church. In. Carlisle. Pennsylvania. Coming up.

Very soon. She. Has been. According to her testimony. Completely.

Delivered. From. Any. Same sex attraction. And not only. Was she.

Participating. In. Lesbian activities. For years. She. Battled. Gender confusion.

Since. Since. Childhood. She thought she was a little boy. And. There's. All of that is gone.

There is something that we haven't addressed. In regards to Dr. Coles. Because he views himself as a gender minority.

And he views himself as part of the LGBTQ community. And I don't understand.

How a Christian. Can view themselves in that way. Because LGBTQ. Is an incoherent.

Set. Of. Concepts. And I think. Everybody recognizes that now. The T.

Just destroys. Everything else that came. You can't have an L. You can't have a G. You can't have a

B. If you have a T. Okay. It destroys all of it. It's incoherent.

And so. How you can be a part of a community. That is based upon.

That level of confusion. That's. That's another thing. It's one thing.

The homosexual. Movement. Pride. Open the door.

But I've said many times. Once. A burger. Fell. Dropped. In June of 2015. It's like a.

A switch. Was thrown. And the focus. Moved. Away from homosexuality. To transgenderism.

It's like. We've got that. Okay. We've got the ground. We've got the culture. Now we go for the kill.

And. Destroy. Destroy. Destroy. The society. Family. Any kind of rational.

Understanding of human. Humanity. By going after. Male. And female.

Which you can't. Do. Because homosexuality. Requires those categories.

To exist. But once. That became. The law of the land.

Quote unquote. Next thing you do. Is you now destroy. The very foundations of. Of any type of meaningful family.

Structure. Anything along those lines. And that's where all of the. That's where all of the. Focus. Turned.

And so I'm going to be asking. How can you. Talk about being a part of this community.

When as a Christian. There isn't any. Question about the Bible's teaching about male and female.

There isn't any question about Jesus' teaching. And if you're going to say that. Jesus actually would agree.

With. The transgender. Movement. Or at least. Have. Some kind of a.

Acceptance of it. Or. Sympathy for it. You don't get that from his teaching.

You don't get that from his strong response. To the Sadducees. In Matthew chapter 19.

Not Sadducees. Just the Jews that were trying to get him involved. In the divorce question. And.

You're. You can't call you. You can't call that a Christian perspective. You can't. At all.

So. I'll be interested in seeing. What comes of that. Because. I see that as. As being connected.

To the claims. That he's made. What does it mean. To be a gender minority. What does it mean. To be a part of the

LGBTQ. Community. Right. How. How does a Christian. How is a. Christian's.

Identity. In any way. Relevant. At that point. That's. That's. That's tough. For me to understand.

By the way. Since I mentioned. Patty. Height. I just wanted. To tell our listeners. To mark your calendars. For September. Twelfth.

Four to six p .m. Eastern. That's when Patty. Height. Of. Out of G. Egypt. Ministries. Will be my guest.

And. Many of you. Who are waiting. To have your questions. Asked. Will likely. Have to have them answered.

By Patty. Height. Because we are. Running out of time. We only had one. Question. Answered. And.

We'll. Have. Maybe time for one more. Question. Before we. Run out of time. But we're going to our final break.

So. If anybody. Does have a question. You're. You better. Send it in immediately. Because.

In fact. You might not as well. We already have too many people. Waiting for their questions. Anyway. So. We'll just take your questions.

When Patty. Height. Is on the program. So. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

After these messages. As. Host.

Of. Iron. Sharpens. Iron. Radio. I. Frequently. Get. Requests. From. Listeners. For. Church. Recommendations. A. Church.

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In. The. World. They. Believe. Churches. Need. To. Turn. To. The. Bible. To. Discover. What. To. Include. In.

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Endeavors. To. Maintain. A. God. Centered. Focus. Reading. Preaching. And. Hearing. The. Word.

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Scriptural. Elements. Of. Their. Corporate. Worship. Performed. With. Faith. Joy. And. Sobriety. Discover.

More. About. Grace. Covenant. Baptist. Church. In. Flemington. New. Jersey. At. G. C. B. C.

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And here on this episode of WP mushrooms I invite you to join me in listening to Carl Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the

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