TPW 20 Revoice Response to Nate Collins

Paul warns that evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving one another and being deceived. The reason Paul told Timothy that was because he needed to be ready to spend the balance of his life in uninterrupted warfare for the truth.

The most dangerous people alive today are always, always, always ordained ministers. They're the most dangerous people in the world, especially the ones that people think are Christians, who will sell you theological poison to the damnation of your soul.

Folks, I just want to warn you about something. Every heretic in the entire history of the church, without exception, has taught their heresy in the name of being faithful to Scripture. What happened when Jesus was nailed to the cross?

That was the day of wrath. That was the day of judgment. That is the day of final salvation, brought back in time and applied to us once for all at the moment of our effectual calling when we repent and believe in our unity to Christ.

Responding to Revoice and Nate Collins

Welcome to the Proud Son Witness. This is Pastor Patrick Hines. Today I'm going to press on with the Revoice Conference, and I want to provide more responses here. I've listened to Nate Collins' talk several times, and so I want to provide some feedback to that as I think there's a lot of very problematic things that were said by Nate Collins in his talk.

Let's press on here with Revoice.

Father God, we're your people, and we're here to call out to you. Hear our prayer.

Amen. Why are you here tonight? I want to begin by asking this question. It's a very basic question. It's personal for all of us. In fact, there's probably at least as many answers to this question as there are people in this room.

Are you here because you're looking for something new, something fresh, enlivening maybe, a new community? I think that's exactly why many of us are here. We're here because we sense that this is the beginning of something new and in many ways exciting community.

It's an important reason. By the way, just real quick, Nate Collins I learned this because James White reviewed this very same talk, and I thought he did a great job on it. Nate Collins is married and has children, and I did not know that the first time I listened to this.

This is the third time I have listened to this talk because I were studying it as a presbytery, and I was surprised because it sounds like he really is suffering from terrible loneliness and everything else, but I was very surprised to hear it.

Just bear that in mind. This is a man who is married to a woman and has children. And that makes understanding what he's saying here a little bit tricky, but just keep that in mind.

We'll come back to it later, but I want to dig a little deeper than that. New is good. Community is essential, especially when it's fresh and enlivening, right? Maybe you're looking for something old, though.

Not new.

Something solid, firm. Something that you can hold on to or that can hold on to you. Or maybe the reason you came here is because you wanted to learn something new or understand something better. Something better about yourself, something better about people you love.

Maybe you sense some kind of inadequacy in yourself to reconcile your Christian faith with your lived experience. Or maybe you're not happy with the way you understand others who are in this journey of reconciling their faith and their sexuality.

I imagine that all of us, including myself, are here for at least one of these reasons and probably many, many more. But besides all these reasons to be here, one reality stands out in my own life. It makes me especially grateful to be here.

In the film, The Greatest Showman, the central anthem of the movie begins when the circus performers are.

Excluded,.

Excluded from a happy, joyful place. Led by the...

And this is, I thought this was an interesting way to start this off. Circus performers being excluded. Now, that's a gonna be a big theme here. This idea of LGBT exclusion. Now, what do they mean by this?

Ray Lowe, the guy, the Asian fellow that spoke before, Nate Collins here in this video, talked about LGBT exclusion. And if they mean that the unrepentant cannot become members of churches and certainly can't be officers or ministers in churches, then yeah.

The thing is, what we need to bear in mind here is that anyone who refuses to repent, not only is there no place for them in the church, there's no place for them in leadership either. There's no place for them among God's people.

Now, that's always offended people. Ray Lowe made the comment, there's supposed to be a place for everybody in the church. And I immediately challenged that because that's not true. There is not a place for everybody in the church.

The church is for broken, repentant sinners who are at war with sin and who trust in Christ alone to save them from their sins. It's real simple. You know, church membership is not complicated. Those who make profession of faith, and I would argue, and their families, their households come in with them, but they've got to be repentant.

They've got to be repentant. And if you're not repentant, you can't be part of a local church. And if you feel like, well, you guys are persecuting me and excluding me and are hurting me, it's not our intention to do that.

But the church of Jesus Christ is to be holy. It is to be set apart from the world. Now, we all struggle with sin, but the thing that sets us apart is that we struggle with it. We don't allow it to define our existence.

You know, the sin that I have in my life, and I know that, you know, many people that listen to this podcast, true Christians, we have these ongoing battles with sin, and it's terrible. I mean, the battle consumes us.

It's painful, and we want to be better than we are. We want to be more pleasing to our Lord who loved us and gave himself for us, don't we? And so, this playing on the heartstrings here of exclusion, exclusion, exclusion.

You know, if anyone was ever excluded as a child, you know, in elementary school, or you felt excluded by your friends or by your peer groups. I mean, that's painful stuff. People remember things like that.

Oh, man. Yeah, I was bullied, or people mistreated me or called me nasty names. I felt excluded from this or excluded from that. No one wants to feel excluded. So, these folks are playing on that emotional issue and trying to turn it into a justification for why we should simply allow them to be unrepentant for these particular sins, and we can't do that.

Now, he's going to quote some lyrics here from a song, and just listen to this.

Character of the bearded lady, they sing about this exclusion and the shame that they experience on a daily basis because of who their society perceives them to be. The first verse of this song says, I am not a stranger to the dark.

Hide away, they say, because we don't want your broken parts. I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars. Run away, they say. No one will love you as you are.

See, now, are you tracking with this? So, he's, the parallel he's making is very obvious. That's what LGBT people, okay, so LGBT, lesbians, bisexual, or lesbians, gay, bisexual, transgender people, that's what he's talking about here.

That they will never be loved as they are. We will never be loved as we are. So, what's behind that? This is just an identity. We were born this way. We were made this way. We can't change it. We won't change it.

We won't even fight it.

The reality that I want to point to and draw your attention to right now is the sheer fatigue that lies beneath these words.

One thing that he's gonna say here in this message over and over again, probably a hundred times, I'm tired. He'll make another statistic, I'm tired. Something else about how badly LGBT people have been treated, I'm tired.

I'm tired. I'm tired. Now, the first time I heard this, the first time I listened to it, I thought maybe, just maybe, when he talks about the sheer fatigue, just being exhausted and tired, maybe what he's gonna do with that is say, I'm tired of fighting against this evil desire that is in my body and my soul.

I'm weary and I'm exhausted. The sheer fatigue, the sheer fatigue of fighting against something that's perverted and dark and wicked that is in me, I'm tired of it. I'm just so tired of it. But that is not what he's talking about here.

I can tell you, and I'm sure many people that are listening, are you tired of fighting against the same old sins all the time? Are you tired of things about yourself that, man, you would change them. If you could push a button and turn those sinful desires off, you'd push that button in a second.

To be rid of those sinful tendencies, those sinful desires? Sure, I would. You know, I've used that as a as an illustration before. That's one of the marks of a Christian. If you put a button in front of the Christian and the sins that are the biggest problem for them, that they struggle with, and by pushing that button they could eradicate those sins from their life, they would push it in a second.

They would push it in a second. I wonder if he did that with these folks, if they would push it. If you could be rid of this identity, LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender. If you could be rid of it by pushing that button, would you push it?

I can tell you from my part, I would push it in a second because I hate sin and I'm tired of fighting with it. But the struggle goes on. Don't grow weary in doing good. You know, we strive against sin.

What is that passage in Hebrews? You've not striven to the point yet of bloodshed. It may come to bloodshed, you know, fighting against sin. But we still fight. We don't, we're not fatigued by how badly we're treated by society.

We're fatigued by our fight with sin, but that's not what he's talking about here.

It's exhausting to live in the darkness of rejection. It's exhausting to constantly be defined by others, by the ways you feel broken, or by the ways you don't measure up, or by a warped understanding of how and who you love.

That statement is very enigmatic to me. A warped understanding of how and who you love? Well, in the context of revoice and the context of what they're talking about, gay, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, what is a, what does he mean by a warped understanding of how and who you love?

Now, the thing is, there's obviously, there's different kinds of love. The love that a husband has for his wife is in a different category than the love he has for his Christian brethren, even the love he has for his children, and the love he has for other women.

There are women in this church, older women, and women that are my age, that are a great encouragement to me. And I would say, yeah, I love them. They're great people. It's a privilege to have them as part of the Christian family and to be connected to them.

But the love that you have in a romantic sense, in the sense of marriage, that's a different kind of love. And so for him to say this as if it's somehow wrong for us to look down on LGBT love, that's not biblical.

That's not love. Romantic attraction and sexual attraction to the same gender is not love. It's not love. And one thing I pointed out when I, a few years ago, preached through the book of Genesis, did a great deal of work looking at the Hebrew there in Genesis 2 about the creation of man, and I will make a helper, an ezer that is comparable, that term, Hebrew term, negev.

If you want to write that, it's n-e-g-e-t-h. That's how you transliterate the Hebrew term there. Negev means opposite of correspondence. Opposite of correspondence. It's comparable, complementary to.

Not the same thing. She was different from him. She was the same species. She was a human being made in God's image, but not the same gender. And so who and how you love, I mean, that kind of, that really made me uncomfortable because how LGBT people would love one another would be unnatural and perverted and dangerous and.

Vile.

It's exhausting to feel like you have no option but to run away from love.

No, this is something that is, that's brought up constantly. Matthew Bynes does this a lot in his book God and the Gay Christian and also in the talks that he's done. He complains that we're excluding him from love, and he's being excluded from marriage.

And I thought, I remember when he, hearing him say that for the first time, I thought, no, you're not. You're, you are just as free as any other man to get married to a woman. You're not being excluded from marriage.

You're excluding yourself by refusing to repent of this sin and fight it. You have to repent of the sin and fight it. You're not excluded from love. You're not excluded from marriage. You can get married.

Anyone is free to get married. This idea of gay identity being unchangeable. God is not able to deliver. God cannot help us overcome anything in this. That's just the constant drumbeat here, and you can't let them sneak this in under the radar.

And later on he's going to start using terms like the church's sexual minorities. Gender and sexual minorities. Really putting this in the same category as race. It's a very common tactic. People have been doing that for decades.

In fact, David Gushy, when he spoke at one of Matthew Vines' Reformation conferences, he actually made the comparison between the Holocaust of the Jews and the way that LGBT people are treated, and I just remember thinking that's incredible to me.

Comparisons are made between LGBT experience and slavery as it was practiced in America. And I know that there's some darker-skinned American pastors that are offended by that. To put sexual sin in the same category as the color of their skin is offensive.

Not only that, but one thing I've pointed out. People have asked me many times, What do you think about interracial marriage?

I'm like,.

There's no such thing as interracial marriage. Because there's the human race. In fact, when I registered to vote here in Tennessee, we moved here, and I had to fill out that paper that had a list of races on there, and I checked the box that said other, and I wrote Adams.

We are all descendants of the same two people, Adam and Eve. Why do we look different? Because we have different melanin content in our skin. The fact is, if you didn't marry someone related to you, then you didn't marry a human.

Because we're all related. We just look different. So there's no such thing as interracial marriage. Putting this form of sexual sin in the same category as race really doesn't make any sense at all. It's another attempt to key in on something that is definitely sinful and wrong.

Racism is wrong. For people to have any kind of attitude towards someone else because of the way they look, or because of their skin color, or the way their faces are shaped, or anything like that, or because they're bald, is wrong.

People need to be given a chance. You need to judge everyone by the same standard, not by the way they look, or because of their ethnicity, or where they're from.

Is it no wonder then, that for many of us, the main reason we're here tonight is because we're just tired. I'll just say it. I'm tired.

He's very emotional here. I mean, this is hard to listen to. Because he's, you know, he's really appealing in an emotive way to his listeners. His voice is cracking there a little bit. He's tired. He's tired.

And I kept thinking, even the first time I listened to it, maybe now he's gonna talk about, I'm tired of this sin, and I hate it. But he doesn't.

I'm tired of feeling burdened by loneliness because I believe lies that I'm unwanted.

I'm tired of feeling... Now that surprised me, because my assumption was he's a single man. He doesn't have family. And then finding out later, when I listened to James White do his review of it, he is married.

He's married, and has a family, has children. Being burdened by loneliness? I would imagine that that doesn't. That doesn't go over very well with his family. I just found that strange. Is he speaking for himself, or is he speaking for others here?

I don't know.

Feeling burdened by shame because I think my orientation makes me less human.

Doesn't make you less human. Our sins don't make us less human, but they do make us sinful. And they do make us displeasing to God, which is why, you know, we we need to put on the new man and put off the old.

And you put sin to death, and you pursue holiness. And it's a it's a rigorous battle. And you you cut off and pluck out. That's something that and just in pastoral counseling over over the last many years, guys, you know, stumble right into sin because they keep it right in front of them all the time.

And we'll go over that passage. And you know, and it's like if you know that something is in your life that causes you to sin, you got to fight it. Get rid of it. Get rid of it then. Cut it off. Pluck it out.

Remember what Jesus said? It's better to enter into life maimed than for your whole body to be cast into hell. If you know something causes you to sin, get rid of it. Be rid of it.

I'm tired of feeling burdened by expectations from others because I think so little of myself. I'm tired.

See, you know, that that's sad. He thinks so little of himself. I'm tired of being burdened by expectations of others because I think so little of myself. I think that as as children of the Living God, if we are true Christians, we ought to think little of ourselves.

In fact, Philippians 2 says we're supposed to consider others to be better than ourselves. Look out not for just your own needs, but for the needs of others. Consider others to be better than yourself.

Don't associate with the high and lofty, but associate with the humble. We're not supposed to think much of ourselves. And certainly our sinful tendencies, we should not only think low of them, but they should convict us and we should grieve and have sorrow in our hearts over that sin.

And it's kind of a it's a strange paradox. The Christian life is a strange paradox because, and I've talked to many people about this over the years just in pastoral care and counseling and everything else.

You can look back at your life for being a Christian for many years and you can see there's so many strongholds of sin that have been broken. That they're not part of my day-in day-out existence anymore.

God has delivered me. God has given a tremendous measure of victory in a number of different areas of my life and yet the struggle still goes on and I'm actually becoming more and more dissatisfied with with my present level of holiness.

So you it's everyone's heard the illustration the closer you get to the light the more dirt you can still see that's on you. And so yeah, I'm tired too. I'm tired of sin and I the thing about the perfection of the work of my Lord and Savior, His salvation that He's given to me freely by faith alone in Him.

The thing I look forward to more than anything, more than anything in the world. I mean, I can't wait to see the new heavens and the new earth and to see everything in it and to see the glory of God's creation restored.

But the biggest thing that we're looking forward to the most important thing that the thing that makes our hearts just glow is we're gonna be able to love God unhindered by sin. There's not gonna be sin anymore.

There will be no division of our hearts at all. None. And we'll be able to love our Lord the way that He deserves to be loved. And that's what bothers me about this. It's almost like these folks are saying I still have this one island.

I will not give this up. I have this one thing. I won't give it up. And that's it. That's a really sad thing.

I'm tired of people saying I'm using the wrong words. I'm tired of people saying that I'm not using enough of the right words. I'm tired. I'm tired of hearing about gay people who have unsafe homes, angry homes, or no homes.

I'm tired. I'm tired of the reality that gay people live every day with verbal abuse from their co-workers, bosses, neighbors, relatives, and even friends. I'm tired.

And that's sad, but there are no gay people. And you can't allow people to get away with this. There is no LGBT community. The church does not have gender and sexual minorities. He's just assuming it.

I'm tired of hearing that gay people have unsafe homes, that gay people live with verbal abuse. The thing is, I could show you some emails I've gotten from people who are about as verbally abusive as a person can be.

Stringing together long, long, colorful metaphors and participles of expletives and all sorts of nasty things about me. Because of videos I've done on the gay issue. I did a video called There Is No LGBT Community.

People were unhappy about that. I've been contacted about sermons I've preached on Matthew Vines and homosexuality and have had some very abusive things. Very, very, very nasty things said. So the verbal abuse is going both ways.

But I think godly Christian people are not going to be verbally abusive towards anyone. We certainly shouldn't be. You shouldn't be berated or swear at or curse at people or just be ugly towards them.

I'm tired of being reminded over and over again that 40 of homeless teenagers are LGBT, that gay and bi youth are three times more likely to seriously contemplate suicide than their straight friends, and that they are almost five times more likely to have attempted it.

I'm tired.

The thing that's left out of that, as sad as that is, I mean suicide is a real thing. It's a real problem. It's a real.

Issue.

It's not because of the way that they're treated primarily, though. The reason individuals involved in this kind of sin, the reason that suicide is a big problem there, is because you can't live your life this way and it not be destructive to your self-image and it be destructive to you flourishing.

It destroys people's consciences. I've read the testimonies of former people who used to be involved in this kind of sin who went to gay pride parades and marched and would go home and hang their head in shame.

Because in their heart of hearts, they knew this is unnatural. It's vile. It's twisted and perverted and here we are parading in the streets and trying our best to turn the turn the volume down on our consciences and yet the image of God in us and that law of God on the heart still gets through and it still bothers people.

Romans 1 32 is a passage that is profound where Paul, at the end of the long sin list there, says, who knowing the righteous judgment of God that those who practice such things are deserving of death not only continue to do them, but also give approval to others who practice them.

We are.

Irrational and crazy in our self-destructiveness. Because in my own analysis of Romans 1 32 and reading a number of commentaries and looking at the text when I preach through Romans, I think that what he what he's actually saying there, who knowing the righteous judgment of God, who knowing the righteous judgment of God that those who do these things are deserving of death, I think that that phrase deserving of death means hellfire.

We know that we're worthy of going to hell for eternity for our sins. We not only continue to do them, but we also approve of others who practice them.

I'm tired and grieved because 40 of transgender adults say they've attempted suicide and that 92 of those attempts were before the age of 25.

I'm tired. And so.

Transgenderism is not being addressed here as something that is fundamentally disordered about a person's mind. It's the ultimate denial of the created order itself. It is one of the ultimate acts of rebellion that a person could ever do is to pretend to be the other gender.

Pretend to be the other gender. I mean, the Old Testament forbids cross-dressing and there's differences of opinion as far as what all that entails, but men are not supposed to wear dresses. Men are not supposed to dress like women and put on makeup and try to look like like women and and vice versa.

You know, androgyny, it's a big problem in our culture. We've really lost.

The distinction between the genders, but I'm tired of seeing the fragility of life put on full display in the stories of gender and sexual minorities who are trying to eke by, squeak by, every day of the week just to get by.

I'm tired.

Gender and sexual minorities, you got to catch that phrase. There are no gender minorities and there are no sexual minorities. There are men and there are women. If you're a man, you were designed emotionally and physically for romantic intimacy and sexual intimacy with a woman.

If you're a woman, you were designed by your creator for romantic and sexual intimacy with a man. And that's it. There are no gender or sexual minorities. These kinds of things are not identities. They're not on the same level as our ontological gender.

They're not on the same level as what we actually are.

Corporate Lament and Biblical Examples

Now, if I'm not alone in this, and I suspect I'm not, how do we respond? Where can we start? I think the first thing we need to do is learn how to corporately lament the reality that gender and sexual minorities live with virtually each and every day.

In the church right now. But lament doesn't come naturally to us. At least lament that leads to life. I mean, we all know that person. Perhaps you are that person who just can't seem to move past lament.

And I don't just say this jokingly. Sometimes it's hard to know where good lament begins to shade into something too dark. Into a depression. It's actually the opposite of life. So to help us understand what lament that is deeply and thoroughly Christian might look like, I'd like to point us toward two examples that we see in the Bible.

Neither of which will be any surprise.

So he's going to talk about Jeremiah and talk about Jesus. Jesus' lament. Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem. The lamenting of the prophets and of the prophet Jeremiah and Jesus. Now, his use of Jeremiah is going to focus on Jeremiah's rebuke of the false shepherds, of the false prophets, of.

Bad.

Churchmen at the time. Bad leaders in the religious community of Israel. And he's going to make a parallel between Jeremiah's opposition that he experiences from the false shepherds and the bad shepherds to basically everyone in the church.

Pastors, teachers, leaders, that don't agree with this perspective. That that's actually a parallel. So listen carefully to this. Jeremiah and the example of Jesus.

And after we've looked at these two examples, we'll end with just some points of application that might help those of us who are great tradition gay Christians know how to lament.

Great tradition gay Christians. That's another that's another term that's been kind of invented. Great tradition gay Christians. I guess I guess they're trying to set themselves off against the liberal version of this.

Because I think I think Nate Collins teaches at a Southern Baptist seminary. I think he does. But so he would look at himself as a conservative. Great tradition gay Christians. Now again, the phrase gay Christian, it really is an oxymoron.

You can't be a gay Christian any more than you can be an adulterous Christian or a thieving Christian or a murderous Christian.

Or anything like that.

So the prophet of Jeremiah prophesied to the southern kingdom of Judah for almost 40 years, from the time of King Josiah all the way until the nation of Judah was carried away into Babylon. As a prophet, Jeremiah's primary ministry was to call the nation of Judah to repentance for their idolatry.

And during his ministry, Jeremiah experienced enormous suffering as a result of his faithfulness to his calling.

And why? Why did Jeremiah experience great hardship in response to his calls to repentance? Because nobody would repent. Because nobody would let go of their idolatry. Nobody would would turn their back on it.

And that's a it's very ironic because I think Jeremiah would lament these individuals for the very same thing. I think if Jeremiah were alive, he'd be calling them to repent of these sinful desires and this sinful identity.

And they would refuse to and then Jeremiah would lament. Because if you read through the prophecy of Jeremiah that that is what he is lamenting.

His opponents often plotted against his life. He was beaten. He was put in stocks. He was mocked and perhaps most famously, he was thrown into a well and left to starve to death.

Listen to these... By people who wouldn't repent and they were tired of him telling them to repent.

Words in Jeremiah 20. Cursed be the day on which I was born, the day when my mother bore me. Let it not be blessed. Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, a son is born to you, making him very glad.

Let that man be like the cities that the Lord overthrew without pity. Let him hear a cry in the morning and an alarm at noon because he did not kill me in the womb. So my mother would have been my grave and her womb forever great.

Why did I come out from the womb to see toil and sorrow and spend my days in shame? Jeremiah was sent by God. God called him and he answered that call to call the nation of Judah to repentance for idolatry and he was punished by his people for that.

And why?

Because they didn't want to repent.

Jeremiah was being nothing but obedient. He was doing what God had called and instructed him to do. But what exactly was Jeremiah saying that got him into trouble? It wasn't his accusations of idolatry.

That were causing his... Yes, it was. Yes, it was. And it was also his rebukes of the false shepherds too. Yeah.

Life to be so difficult. The people of Judah weren't the source of Jeremiah's woes. It was attacks from false prophets. Jeremiah 14, 13 through 14 says, then I said, ah, Lord God, behold, the prophets say to them, people of Judah, you shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place.

And the Lord said to me, the prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lie.

Now you got to just recognize here at the end of the talk, he's going to say, he's going to say that LGBT people are prophets. And those of us who denounce this, we are the false prophets. We're the ones that are prophesying lies in God's name.

I find this unbelievably offensive. So if we stand up and call people to repentance from something that shows up in sin lists in scripture, homosexuality, I mean, even in 1 Corinthians 6, both terms are used, arsinokoites and malakoi, the active and the passive part in male homosexual sex, soft, you know, being a soft man, those show up there.

So if we call people to repentance of that, we're the false shepherds in Jeremiah, and we are prophesying lies in God's name by calling people to repent of a very simple, easy to recognize sin. But I find this amazing that he's actually saying this and that there's not some kind of an uproar going on in the gathered people there.

...vision of worthless divination and the deceit of their own minds. So on the one hand you have Jeremiah who's saying that the nation of Judah will be punished for its idolatries. And on the other hand, you have these other prophets, false prophets, who are saying, no, you're not going to be punished.

It's the nation of...

Can you hear the irony here? The false prophets are saying, no, you're not going to be punished. What is Nate Collins saying? What is Ray Lowe saying? What are all these people at Revoice saying? It's okay to be gay.

It's okay to be transgender. In fact, Ray Lowe said a transgender pastor would be a huge blessing to a church. So obviously they're not saying that this is sinful. They're not identifying this as sin.

And then they're saying that those of us that do identify it as sin, we're the false shepherds that persecuted Jeremiah. And all these LGBT Christians, they're Jeremiah.

Avalon, in fact, not Israel, that's going to be struck down. Now this raises an interesting question. How are teachers like this? These false prophets able to gain positions of power and influence in the first place?

Jeremiah gives us the answer to this question as well.

I can tell you one way that false shepherds get positions of power and influence. It's called signing our creed with their fingers crossed behind their back. Good old-fashioned lying. Saying you believe our standards, you believe our confession, when in fact you don't.

So lying has always been pretty effective at false shepherds getting in.

Arise when there are bad shepherds.

That is quite true. That's quite true. And what he's going to go on to say here is false prophets get into the church because of bad shepherds. And who are the bad shepherds? People that call people to repentance of this kind of sexual sin.