JD Greear, Homosexuality, Michael Licona, Certainty and Assurance

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00:39

Well, greetings welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white second day in a row Did manage to sleep fairly well last night.

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That's always dangerous night. Everybody's different But as far as jet lag is concerned

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It's the second night not the first night home the second night home that if you wake up in the middle of the night

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Getting back to sleep to be really tough that happened when I was in Down in South Africa.

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So I was a worried us last night Especially only an hour and a half or so after we hit the hay quite early

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The some big thunderstorms decided to come through the valley had lots and lots of lightning and thunder

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I did wake up very briefly didn't even hear the rain. I guess there was a lot of it and Thankfully went back to sleep it was good

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Course woke up this morning. The dew point was 71 degrees which for a Phoenix is very very humid very very human indeed and Want to greet all of our young Young viewers, we have a lot of young viewers a lot of you are our homeschool kids and like my grandkids are and I Don't know if you just convinced your parents that you know, you'll listen learn something

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You gotta be careful something I say might stick with you. You might actually learn something Watching this program, but I I got a card.

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I actually got some some gifts some some beard oil from Peter Boland and His daughter now,

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I'm trying to the the the artwork The byline down the bottom is right down the bottom of the page.

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I can't actually read it real well. It looks like Leah Joy Boland age 12, but see here's anybody recognize what that's from.

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That's from the the picture from Wittenberg where I'm preaching from Luther's pulpits.

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So so thank you very much for that and I'll put that right over there. We can see it later on so we as I travel around I meet a lot of young young people who watch the dividing line and Normally not always but very often homeschooled kids and they watch the program and so we

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Appreciate your watching and hope that we are helping to prepare you for whatever it is. The Lord has in mind for you

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Let's start off with the big story of the day. Well I'm not sure if we could call it a big story

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Because it's the same old same old. I remember very clearly when

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I was in Munster the beginning of the year going out for a run

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I Must have really been desperate to get exercise in because I was running in the snow and the ice in Munster it started snowing and So there was snow and there was ice

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I still ran Survived it one good slip and that would have been the end of that. But anyway

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And as I was running I was listening to J .D.

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Greer president the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention Speaking on the subject of homosexuality.

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Well, it wasn't specifically about that, but it it was addressed and so I responded

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When I got back lengthy mega edition of the dividing line And I played his comments and interacted with them at that time and Attempted to Provide a response to his assertion that the

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Bible whispers about sexual sin But shouts about other kinds of sin as If there was a gradation and also his claim that homosexuality is no different than all the other sins that are listed in Romans chapter 1

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The problem with that as I pointed out is that that is a

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Fundamental misreading of Romans chapter 1 That homosexuality is not listed in the vice list.

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It is an example of used by the Apostle to discuss the disorder that results from idolatry and that this idolatry touches upon the deepest elements of human existence specifically

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God having made us male and female and hence the centrality of that reality to the continuation of the species itself and To the self -definition of each individual person

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Homosexuality has been described as a disordered desire because of the fact that not only is it against God's revealed will so there are

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Let's take very frequently used gluttony. There is nothing sinful about eating. In fact eating is necessary Gluttony is an abuse of an ordered desire

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It is necessary to eat when someone stops eating they die that's called bulimia or all the other terms that are used for the various eating disorders and We can all think of famous people like Karen Carpenter Who died of such disorders?

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You have to eat But you have to be disciplined in your eating so The desire to eat is an ordered desire the desire to eat too much is

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Not a disordered desire because you're still desiring something that is appropriate

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But it is undisciplined Adultery is also not a disordered desire it is

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Natural for a man To desire a woman. That's the way God made us.

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That's how our bodies function. That's natural. That is the way we're made but there are law there are laws that God has provided to provide the boundaries in which that activity is to be channeled such things as bestiality and Homosexuality are disordered desires.

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They are tevil The Hebrew term for confusion there they involve a confusion of categories that countermand and contradict

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God's creative will God made us in a certain way.

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He tells us how we to function and So to desire Not more or an excessive amount of what

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God has ordained But to desire something that fundamentally violates the created order itself is a disordered desire and so to attempt to say that homosexuality absolutely, no different than theft or Anger or gluttony is to completely miss not only how it functions in Romans 1 because again read

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Romans 1 verse 26 -27 are not in the vice list. They are an example for even their women gave up the natural use of the man men burning with desire for one another

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These are examples of the result of idolatry and being turned over to one's lusts and how

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What should be? the natural functioning of mankind

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Can become disordered as a as as the the creation pushes away the knowledge of God and pushes away the light that comes from God's own creation so it's a disordered desire and So we responded to that and and pointed this out

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Now JD Greer is perfectly, you know Doesn't have to listen to this program doesn't have to be concerned about what we have to say

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But I wasn't the only one that pointed these things out to him so he posts a

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Article I believe yesterday on JD Greer comm three ways we go wrong when discussing homosexuality and the first point is generally correct in the sense

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That he says we're wrong if we believe God doesn't care about our sexuality. Well, that's true

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But in the midst of this he does say if someone says but I was born this way I don't dispute that but possessing a desire innately doesn't make it right.

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Well, I agree with the overarching point and That is God gets to determine what is and what is not appropriate behavior, even if we have an innate desire but the vast majority of Homosexuals in Worldwide interviews

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Do not say they were born that way. That's the that's the narrative that is being used now

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But you actually go into gay bars and you actually go into places where homosexuals gather and they can point you right to them the time in their experience when they were abused or this happened or that happened where They they know that that is where things changed for them

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There are those who give that Testimony that the earliest desires they had that they are aware of were for the same sex

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But I think that's a fairly small percentage to be pretty honest with you. I know that's the big narrative

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I know that's what's being pushed But of course what's also being pushed is that well, we just need to recognize that people who want to have monogamous lifelong loving relationships

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Every bit of information that I've ever seen on these sexual proclivities and activities the homosexual community says that is not the case that the average homosexual male has

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I Don't even know what the number of times is more sexual partners in their life than an average heterosexual male

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It's and it's by many many many factors of tens So There's a narrative that is pushed out there that narrative is rarely accurate

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Anyway, that was a minor point. I would dispute it. But the second point that he has

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We're wrong. If we think same -sex behavior is a fundamentally different type of sin That is where JD Greer the president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention is simply wrong he's wrong on every level and This is the narrative

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That is coming into the churches It does not derive itself from meaningful exegesis

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There have been numerous Articles that Robert Gagnon and others have written. You don't have to read in -depth scholarly articles to recognize

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That there is a major categorical difference Now you can

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I mean, I understand why this works for some people. Well all sin Separates you from God.

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Well, okay, that doesn't mean all sins are the same just because God's standard is sinless perfection

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Does not mean that all sins therefore become identical to one another It's very plain in Scripture that there is a judgment based upon knowledge more tolerable for example for Sodom and Gomorrah Than for Chorazin and Bethsaida because the amount of light and knowledge that would they were that they possessed

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At the same time Jesus is teaching that if you Lust after a woman you've committed adultery with her already in your heart

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Does not mean well since I lost it after might as well go do it It does not mean that the actual act is

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Identical to the thought That was in the context of people allowing their thought lives to run rampant and run amok

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Thinking that as long as you didn't do the deed you could think about all you wanted to that's all Jesus was saying

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He wasn't saying well since you've thought about you might as well go ahead and do it there are consequences to doing that so there's a lot of confusion

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Categorical confusion in the way that people think and since many Baptists Southern Baptists as well

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Have heard the statement. Well all sin separates you from God therefore they are liable to then make the mistake of meaning that means all sin is identical to all other sin and That clearly is not the case

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There are obviously murder You can be angry with someone in your heart

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But it is far worse to murder them. Both are sin You cannot use the fact that you didn't do the one to excuse the thought sin

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But it is of course absurd to think That once you get angry with someone you might as well just go ahead and kill them because in God's eye, it's all the same

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That's obviously ridiculous and so The argumentation that is presented by JD Greer just simply misses fundamental categories

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So for example, it says in Romans 1 Paul lists same -sex behavior as one corruption among many. No, he does not

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That's just wrong. I don't know what Bible he's reading. I don't know why he's missing the point. He didn't in the sermon

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Though he made wrong application It's not just one sin amongst many it's not in the vice list.

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He's missed the function that it has We may not think of deceit boasting greed or a rebellious attitude toward parents as equally depraved as same -sex behavior

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But if you look at Paul's list, they are. No, they are not They're not disordered in the way that homosexuality is disordered.

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That's not how Paul presents it. This is just a complete misrepresentation. I would really think it would be wise if those around Pastor Greer maybe could try to bring some correction here try to say you've missed this given your position

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This is not something you should be doing. You should rethink this you need to retract this you need to maybe

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Direct people to dr. Gagnon's work and some other people who have written on this subject to give a balanced more biblical perspective

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But that's what's going on here in another one of his letters Paul even talks about the pride that comes from religion and an obsession to be better than others as An example of this kind of idolatry where we prioritize our desires over the

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Christian creators designs Galatians 4 through 9 Is that equally depraved in our book? It should be again, this is major categorical errors on Pastor Greer's part

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There is everything to be warned about there is everything sinful About the attitude of the scribes and Pharisees about their desire for power

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The idolatry that was theirs in their own religious worship that doesn't change the fact that in Romans chapter 1

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Homosexuality is used to be an illustration of the twisting of the creator creation

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Relationships so that it reaches even to the depths of the human experience and perverts self -identity

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It perverts the natural function of male and female which continues the species and So this is an illustration of how deep this goes

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Now how deep a sin goes is one thing But if it twists you to the point where you desire that which will destroy you that's something else

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Now both bring God's judgment and There is tremendous judgment pronounced upon the scribes and the

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Pharisees because the light they have and the Self -centeredness that is theirs rather than the

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God -centeredness that should be theirs But that doesn't change the reality of the character of Homosexuality there is clearly an attempt here and I don't know why

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J .D. Greer is doing this, but they're but this is these are the first few steps toward what will you eventually see?

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I mean, I hope we don't see J .D. Greer going there, but we're already seeing Southern Baptist going there in fact,

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I just realized I saved the video somewhere of the

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Southern Baptist pastor Less than two weeks ago preaching a sermon and leading his church to become an inclusive

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Accepting church and it was nothing but the standard

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Apologetic that we've gone over when Matthew Vines presented it when

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Peter when when dr. Gushy presented it we've gone over this for hours. And in fact

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Graham Codrington faulted me for how many hours we've spent Addressing this subject. Well when you keep coming up with bad arguments, it takes time to unpack bad arguments and You can't ignore the reality that this is

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One of the primary things the left is using to try to shut down our freedom

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In in Western cultures, there's no question But I mean it will it already is in certain cultures

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They hate crime to say the things that I'm saying right now, and it will be everywhere before long So This is the it just seems like pastor

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Greer is is moving down a path that I'm not sure. There's many places to stop on this particular downward trend

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But we can certainly hope for the best In fact, we're trying to pin down the most egregious sins in Scripture.

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There are quite a few other candidates that merit consideration it's not a matter of looking for egregious it's looking for the nature of the sin as specifically

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Demonstrating disorder This will be important because I also want to touch on the conversation that erupted while I was gone about the issue of the temptation of Jesus and Jonathan Merritt and Nate Collins and the people

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I'm not sure why these men have the ears of conservatives They shouldn't they do not have

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The credentials in their beliefs to have the ears of conservative people

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But they get noticed and they're saying these things and we'll take a look at how important this disordered aspect is in looking at Jesus as The Incarnate One and the issue of Hebrews chapter 4 and being tempted in all ways yet without sin

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Um, so then he goes on to talk about materialism and pride but again Down below he says my point is not to say same -sex behavior is not sinful

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My point is that we often present it differently than the Bible does as a sort of uber sin in a categorically different realm

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It's not an uber sin, but it is in a categorically different realm It is in the same realm that it was originally introduced in in Leviticus 18 as one of those activities

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That the pagan peoples before Israel committed in the land and the land spewed them out

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So there's all the stuff you want to go back look at all the things they did The incest and the bestiality and everything else you want to go back there.

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It is in that category That's where it's first introduced to us in Scripture.

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Well, okay Genesis 18 19 But as far as in the law, that's what it is identified as so there there seems to be either in out of ignorance a lack of care or purposefully an attempt to whitewash the biblical distinction that is introduced in Paul's use in Romans 1 and In the

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Mosaic law as to the disordered nature the denial of the male -female

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Created order from from God So So when we realize that he says we'll cease being a pharisaic teacher of the law and will become a gospel witness

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So I guess if you recognize that Paul treats us differently than your pharisaic teacher of the law

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Well, no Number three was we're wrong if we assume it's hard for LG people to get to heaven

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LGBT people to get to heaven Then we have this argument

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Let me say something very clearly Homosexuality does not send you to hell. I know that because being heterosexual doesn't send you to heaven

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That's cute it's preachy But I dare anyone who has any training whatsoever in logical argumentation to chart that one out and make any sense out of it at all

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Because it makes no sense. It is egregiously silly

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As far as a statement or argument goes it is stunning that a president of Southern Baptist Convention make this kind of statement

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It really is. I'm sorry. It seems like a nice guy, but talk about falling off the cliff What is that supposed to mean?

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Homosexual homosexuality does not send you to hell because being heterosexual doesn't send you to heaven

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Murdering doesn't send you to hell because keeping people alive doesn't send you to heaven Theft doesn't send you to hell because having a savings account of your own doesn't send you to heaven.

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It's just ridiculous There are it It I mean, it's laughable if this wasn't such a serious issue

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It would be just laughable that anyone could take this kind of assertion seriously now

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I Suppose the only defense would be to say well what he's doing Yeah, it is a stupid statement, but it's meant to be taken as a stupid statement because it's meant to be mocking the idea that the the underlying assumption that heterosexuality is

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What makes you right with God who is saying that What is being said is that?

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Heterosexuality is God's ordained and proper sexual behavior for men and women within the covenant of marriage

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That marriage is only heterosexual that there is never anything in Scripture said positively about anything other than heterosexual unions never it's not there and If you think that and here's what and here's where the view of Scripture ends up Flying down the tubes because all you can say in light of that Is that well those people back then didn't know what we know now.

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So who wrote Scripture again? So when Jesus walked this earth, he didn't know about People who are naturally properly

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God made homosexuals. He wasn't God He wasn't the

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Creator You see that's the only direction you can go yeah, it's the only

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Direction you can end up going is You have to end up denying The authority and inspiration of Scripture the fact it's a supernatural revelation

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It's the only place you can go and that's why most people that follow this end up going there.

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That's what I end up going so the categorical errors in the

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JD Greer argument are Fundamentally debilitating of its utilization in the future somebody near him needs to say

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JD brother That's a really really bad argument

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You're really destroying your credibility when you make that type of argument. No one is arguing that Heterosexuality is the way to go to heaven

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What sends anyone to hell is? The fact that they fell in Adam.

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That's not a real big belief monk Southern Baptist anymore either either federal headship. Oh Original sin not so much

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Not so much But they go to hell because they're sinners under the wrath of God Yes, they've committed sin, but they commit sin because they're sinners they come in this world with that nature and that nature

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Can give Expression to itself in many different ways Some bring greater condemnation than others as far as the level of punishment or the severity of punishment

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But punishment is for everyone Anyone who dies outside of Jesus Christ Everybody that's just how it works.

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That's how it works. So this argument

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It says what sends you to hell is refusing to allow Jesus to be the Lord and center of your life regardless of how that manifests

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Whether it's in your refusal to let Jesus be Lord over your sexual life or in your refusal to obey him with your money

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Or your right to control your career It's not where you express your rebellion that matters, but that it exists

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Okay There is no question that a sinner is in rebellion against the

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Lordship of Christ And then he quotes from Rosario Butterfield, I really wonder what

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Rosario thinks about his argument and he makes Reference to the reality

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That this sin and all sin does come down to whether you're going to allow

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God to be God Whether you can allow God to determine What you are to believe and what you're how you live or anything else all of that is true

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But none of that has anything to do with trying to Normalize in the sense of these are all just the same types of sins

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The concept of homosexuality it is true that Idolatry that homosexuality arise arises out of an idolatrous

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Attitude toward God God says I made men I made women and I determined their relationship

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And you are fundamentally saying not for me Not for me

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My desires are more important than what you've defined to be right and wrong that that is an idolatrous statement.

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No question about it But it doesn't change the fact that that particular set of decisions and activity and behavior is placed by Scripture itself

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Into a category that caused the nations before Israel to be spewed out of the land spewed out of the land

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So Anyway, I don't know who can get hold of Pastor Greer and try to help him with this

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I'm going to assume that he would very much like to know What the truth is and present the truth

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We're going to assume that so somebody please Direct him to some meaningful materials on these subjects because what he's putting forward and You would think with all of the leaders in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. He meets with on a regular basis That there would be plenty of people to correct him on Romans 1 and the place of homosexuality there and things like that, but But yeah, there you go.

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So as I was saying, I Think today Well, no yesterday 17 hours

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Jonathan Merritt Who again on the subject of Homosexuality is quite compromised himself

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So he likes to make a lot of comments about this type of stuff Jonathan Merritt tweeted The Bible has a word for the way many conservative evangelicals treat marriage and family as the pinnacle of human existence and spiritual fidelity idolatry

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It is an anthropological and theological framework more consistent with the bachelor than the

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Bible now It just happened in my feed that the first response to him

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Was from Brian Zond Now if that name doesn't ring a bell with you, we've played for example

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Michael Brown's debate with Brian Zond on Substitutionary atonement that took place a couple years ago we have

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Gone over some Twitter exchanges. I've had with Brian Zond He is an emergent church style red -letter

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Christian style Individual with really bad theology just really bad theology

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So Here's what Brian Zond said in response. He said Jesus directly challenged the primacy of family

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Idolatry of family is Mormonism Okay.

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Well Mormonism is actually idolatry of man and the exaltation of man the status of Godhood So and the family in Mormonism It's not being practiced right now, but it's fundamentally polygamous

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So you have one man with many wives producing as many spirit children as possible. I Doubt Brian Zond really knows much about Mormonism But That was

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Not even close But what what is this? I mean the family is under such attack today

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External to the church, but internal to the church as well the attitude of many people being expressed

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Now can can family become an idol? Well, of course it can can marriage become an idol. Of course it can anything you become an idol but the goodness of the family the goodness of Marriage and fidelity the goodness of children.

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I I blew everybody away in In South Africa when during the

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QA someone asked me What do you think about Christians who marry and choose not to have children my response was

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I think it's foolish Should have heard the gasps But the idea

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I think I just think a lot of people have the idea today that all that stuff about the quiver and the blessing of children and That all that's just That was back then that was back then that's not now and I know

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I absorbed in My youth the idea you have one boy one girl. You're done. You did you did your duty?

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And I've said I wish that hadn't been the conclusion I came to But The okay the pinnacle of human existence and spiritual fidelity

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Well, I'm not sure what he means by that. But what I've learned is Jonathan Merritt uses language To communicate things and then he can back off of it very easily one way or another.

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It's the standard methodology and Here you have someone who is fundamentally compromised in many ways in this area

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Saying that if The way many conservative evangelicals treat marriage and family as the pinnacle of human existence and spiritual fidelity.

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Well, you know a Faithful man a faithful husband

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Loving his wife is used in Scripture as the example of Jesus in the church and that's about as Pinnacly as you're gonna get some as pinnacles you're gonna get

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It's pretty up there. Yeah, I think so. I think so Let me just put this way what's more of a danger that we are going to follow the world's attitudes about marriage and family or that we're going to over emphasize

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God's commandment as to how we're to live in that in that relationship Pretty obvious, isn't it? Just look at the liberal churches

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Look at where they've gone Look at what they're doing with egalitarianism and look at what they're doing with with the destruction of the families in their in their midst

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Which is more likely which is more like it's pretty obvious. So you got

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Jonathan Merritt doing his thing If you're not familiar with the name, let me just warn you ahead of time

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If you if you want to see the people trying to move us away from biblical fidelity and away from conservative meaningful

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Theology look to people like Brian Zahn and Jonathan Merritt. They're all all of a feather Then you've got

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Nate Collins, of course the head of revoice and That takes us back to The issue that I mentioned before There was all this stuff

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I guess he posted a and I don't have that one Tweet in front of me. I think

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I have it in Dropbox in place, but I didn't grab it for this But he posted the temptations of Jesus the

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Ed Shaw article from Gospel Coalition Australia now, I wasn't able to follow everything

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Last week when Twitter erupted my daughter read

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Reposted the article and I guess in The article

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Ed Shaw and if not if you read Tom Buck's articles at on our website couple months ago about living out

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Many of the articles that were cited there were written by Ed Shaw and the ones that had they're the worst examples of clearly and obviously imbalanced suggestions and insights and so on so forth in regards to same -sex attraction and living with that and all the rest of stuff and so when

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Summer retweeted this stuff. She used the term The term that had been used by Ed Shaw was grapple.

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She used the term struggle. I Recall Nate Collins went after her about that and you're misrepresenting him and and people are saying she gets sued and everything else and the fighting is when the

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TGC people down in Australia Published a not a correction or withdrawal but a clear clarifying statement.

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They use the term struggle, too which means Summer wasn't misrepresenting anything

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But the whole idea that came out of this was a discussion of this issue of Jesus Struggling with his sexuality grappling with his sexuality

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Now there's nothing new about this. This has been going on for decades in the mainline liberal dying denominations, this is what liberalism does and This is what leftism does

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I'm tired of using the term liberal so there's nothing new

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But to be hearing it within the context of what is supposed to be

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Bible believing Sola scriptura embracing Confessional Christianity is what we're having to deal with now and I think the reason that It garnered a lot of attention is because we generally

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Haven't thought much About the impeccability of Christ about the nature of Christ as That arises from a meaningful understanding of the hypostatic

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Union the fact that Jesus is the God man that he has a full human nature that it is not a polynarianism

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Where the rational element of the of humanity is removed So you don't have a true human person

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It's not you ticking ism where you have a mixture where you have a demigod No, true human nature.

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No true divine nature, but a 50 -50 type mixture idea It's not in a story in ism it it is a meaningfully biblical protected understanding of Christology and who

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Christ was Those are not generally terms and Issues that a lot of Christians are overly familiar with or spend a lot of time thinking about when it comes to The temptations of Jesus.

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I remember very clearly in Bible College in dr. DC Martin's class we had just had a discussion of the impeccability of Christ could

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Christ sin and I'd walked over to the little teeny tiny bookstore at that time in comparison to GCU's bookstore now

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Anyway, I'd walked over there and while I was perusing the books I Had a thought that I have stuck with for almost 40 years now and I've Appreciated it and Feel like it's appropriate and if someone can provide a counter -argument, that's better than all those that I've heard before.

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That'd be great But when it comes to the nature of Christ and the issue of his impeccability which is more properly basic to the person of Christ and Which is more pop properly basic to his divine and human natures

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Is it more foundational to the divine nature to not be able to sin?

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Than it is to the human nature to be able to sin now think about that for just a second

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It's rather obvious when you think about it. It is far more

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Definitional to the nature of God to not be able to sin

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Than it is to the nature of man to be able to sin because we believe that in the glorified state

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We will not sin or be able to sin. We will be perfectly sanctified.

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Does that mean we will no longer be human? No, we will be perfected as creatures in our union with God So it is not properly definitional of Humanity To be able to sin in Comparison to what we will be in our final sanctified state

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But it is without question absolutely definitional of the nature of God to not be able to sin so when it comes down to that particular issue,

42:56

I think that's a Sort of necessary place to stand in light of that then

43:05

Jesus when it is said in Hebrews 4 15 if we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses

43:11

But one who has been tempted in all things as we are yet without sin That is not to be understood as saying that Jesus endured every kind of temptation that any person could ever endure on earth

43:23

Nope. Nope. No human being ever has and his being able to be our high priest

43:30

Means he has to be able to sympathize with our weaknesses Not that he had to experience every single temptation that any of us have ever experienced he was tempted in all the categories as Adam would have been

43:47

But there are all sorts of categories That we are tempted in that he was not tempted in for one simple reason so much of our temptation

43:58

Arises from our past experience of sin when we have sinned and gotten away with it and We enjoyed it

44:10

That is a temptation that Jesus would never have experienced Because he didn't sin

44:18

So there are categories of temptation that exist in Fall in the fallen nature that would not exist in the unfallen nature of the hypostatic

44:29

Union That represents the one person of Jesus Christ So a lot of people take this to mean

44:37

Rather than Jesus experienced all the categories That Jesus experienced every kind of sin

44:45

When it comes to disordered Temptation Jesus didn't experience it

44:53

Because that only arises from a fallen nature That is a that's a that's being that's being given over.

44:59

He was not given over so when people try to Insinuate That Jesus would have struggled with homosexuality or with homosexual temptation

45:14

They are completely missing What what's going on here is? Most of the time when the church has defined credally certain things about God and Christ mysteries the faith

45:30

What we do is we define the borders and Say this far and no farther

45:37

Outside of this it's wrong because we have these scriptural things, but sometimes what's inside those borders

45:44

We don't have a lot of revelation about because God's unique the incarnations unique So we know it can't be these things because we do have the statement that Jesus was without sin

45:56

So it can't be anything outside that particular part of the border But when it comes to the positive definition that can be a whole lot harder

46:07

Because of the uniqueness of what it is that we are talking about and so It's important to recognize

46:19

That so much of this speculation has an origin and a source to it and The origin the source is is not coming from exegesis.

46:30

It is coming from a desire to bring a

46:37

Lifestyle and acceptance of a supposed orientation

46:44

Into the church in violation of 1st Corinthians 611 such were some of you These people want the they want to change the tense of the verb from were to are such are some of you

46:56

That's the assertion here. That's what that's the fundamental goal and the direction they're going to be able to how far they're willing to go

47:06

We'll see over the next few years. We'll see over the next few years No question about it

47:11

Now time's going by here. I'm Yeah, I'm looking at you looking at this.

47:22

I'm trying to figure out Nate van Kampen. Oh I I don't see a lot of stuff.

47:29

Oh Okay, so Nate van Kampen I'm not I doubt Nate's listening, but oh, no

47:35

I followed you after hearing you on believe on the unbelievable JB show thinking you may be a reasonable voice with different theological views than me

47:41

Then you resort to personal attacks of two brothers with different viewpoints in you I hope you can help me avoid echo chamber and it's referring to the

47:49

Jonathan Merritt Brian's on stuff Why do you think that's personal attacks

47:54

Nate? I just pointed out these these men have Fundamental theological problems.

47:59

I made if what you're looking for is someone who doesn't believe in truth Then you followed the wrong person.

48:05

You need to unfollow immediately lest you be offended And then we've got a so which is the greater sin willful suppression of truth or homosexuality

48:16

Will leave that up to God they're both sins. How's that? Don't know what in the world that one's about.

48:22

Okay last topic here, I was sent a

48:35

Notification from Michael like Ona's Facebook page,

48:41

I think yeah, it says This year at the

48:47

National Christian apologetics conference in Charlotte I'll be having a public dialogue with Christian philosopher.

48:53

Dr. Richard Howe on the question What does it mean to say the Bible is inerrant? The dialogue will be moderated by dr

49:00

Frank Turek and is scheduled to occur on Friday, October 11th The dialogue will be live -streamed.

49:08

Well, that will be very interesting it will be very interesting for many reasons, especially in light of Uh, dr.

49:19

Like Ona's book on The gospel differences and his fundamental assertion that the

49:26

Gospels contain errors You remember when we went over the examples he gave and disputed those issues

49:35

I do not believe dr. Like Ona believes in inerrancy. He says he does.

49:40

I'm sorry There's no I do not know of any meaningful definition of inerrancy That he would be able to affirm in light of the things that he said and of course the big brouhaha

49:52

About what was it ten years ago now, maybe not even ten. Maybe about eight years ago. I Didn't look it up but was when

50:00

Dr. Like Ona's book on resurrection came out and that section of Matthew in the resurrection narratives

50:08

Of Concerning the resurrection of the dead who went into Jerusalem were seen some of the dead saints were seen alive by many

50:17

That he basically said I didn't really happen That that didn't really happen. It's I Never really did understand his explanation.

50:26

It's it's your standard Way of saying this that Matthew made this up. I mean, that's what he's basically saying.

50:33

It's Matthew made this up It didn't really happen there was no historical reality to what took place and Norman Geisler said you don't believe in inerrancy and There was all of the

50:48

Brouhaha that took place at ETS and stuff like that as a result of what happened in in regards that particular issue and at that time we went through the

50:59

Matthew in passage and Demonstrated that there was no reason to take it the way that dr Like Ona takes it and turn into something and it's not and deny its historicity and you know

51:08

We talked about that kind of stuff, but dr Geisler's gone now and so at the school that he founded but was not a part of at the end of his life

51:18

There is going to be this discussion. Well, it's actually not gonna be at SCS gonna be at Calvary Church, but it's in Charlotte and Dr.

51:24

Richard Howe is on staff there and I believe it was dr This dr. Howe that I had the impromptu unannounced didn't bother to tell me about it

51:33

But we did it anyways a debate on apologetic methodology a number of years ago the one time

51:39

I've actually been allowed on The campus of SCS haven't been back since then

51:45

That was when Michael Brown I had our debate on predestination and election there

51:52

So what is interesting is that this was announced

51:59

About a week after I saw a

52:04

YouTube video and It's a

52:11

YouTube video with Michael Icona and his wife Talking about the

52:17

Marty Sampson situation one of the two apostate

52:23

Situations that Maybe I guess the Marty Sampson one happened right as I was leaving or something.

52:29

I forget exactly when it was but we had Had talked about some of the others going on and I Listened to it's a 40 minute long video

52:42

But it basically, you know, I remember the very first Michael Icona book

52:48

I read on a flight somewhere on The resurrection stuff in regards to Islam It was

53:00

He talked about the fact that he struggles with doubts and that he has his entire life

53:09

All right Well, it was fascinating because in this video he talks about The fact that Well his relationship with his father his late father who identifies as a hyper

53:29

Calvinist now I I Question honestly anybody in his group when it comes to their utilization of language regarding Reform Theology I'm sorry.

53:41

I just have not found the William Lane Craig Michael Icona group To have any real understanding of Reform Theology and the history of Reform Theology and hence, you know when when

53:55

William Lane Craig, you know, yeah There's no demonstrating hyper Calvinism and Calvinism. There's all the same thing, you know I've just heard too many straw men to to go there, but In the context of the conversation with his father he says something

54:12

That really caught my attention. Let's um, let's go ahead and listen to just a couple of minutes. Do you have this?

54:19

Yes No, you forgot to you forgot to oh man, dude

54:27

Hold on a second everybody we we forgot to do we're supposed to do and and Make sure that the connection is working.

54:38

So I may not be able to show this to you. So I just may have to Okay, I can blow it up here that's something we're supposed to do before the program starts but I'm not in You wonder what

54:56

I have to put up with okay. Okay. Here we go Look see

55:04

Let's turn it up turn up. Here we go. Here we go. But you know, my dad never understood that he was a diehard

55:13

Calvinist five -pointer if there were a ten -point Calvinist, he would have been one He was a hyper

55:18

Calvinist actually and he said, you know If you're a believer in the Holy Spirit's worked in your heart, you're gonna be a hundred percent certain.

55:26

I was like dad I'm not a hundred percent certain about anything not in fact It's hard for me to make decisions at times over stupid things like what cologne to purchase

55:36

You know that were years ago or what watch the buyer or something, you know things like that, you know, so Don't shop with Mike.

55:44

Yeah, she won't she she doesn't like to shop with me and I can understand why but I mean it's just the way we're we're wired and But my dad couldn't understand that in fact a few years before both my parents died

55:58

He canceled a Christmas trip, you know one time he asked me Several years ago.

56:03

I was telling about doubts and he said well, how sure are you Christianity stress it? Well about 80 % 80 % you know, and it's like just couldn't he got mad at me for that And it just stewed in him for several years

56:16

We didn't talk about it for a few several years But we invited him to visit us in the Atlanta area for Christmas and they originally agreed and then he canceled it

56:24

Because he was so upset that a few years before that. I'd said I was only 80 % certain

56:29

Christianity was true I'm a little more now, of course But you know, I was struggling with doubts at that point a little more now a little more now

56:38

So maybe maybe 85 % sure So I've taken up most of the hour.

56:47

I'm gonna have to go over just a little bit here, but How do you deal

56:57

With someone who says I'm a Christian, but I'm only about 80 % sure that Christianity is true or maybe a little bit more now maybe 85

57:10

How Do you how do you approach someone like this? Well, first of all, there's there's a number of things here

57:20

There is a vast difference between talking about Rational categories of Not assurance but of certainty and The spiritual quality of assurance of one's relationship to God Obviously, no one dr.

57:48

Lykona myself no one has ever faced every question that could ever be asked of the

57:57

Christian faith and There are questions I've never pondered objections,

58:03

I've never seen Those of us who work in the field of apologetics have seen many more

58:10

Objections than the vast majority of regular believers will see in their life But that doesn't mean we've seen all of them and so on a purely

58:24

Naturalistic rationalistic level leaving the spiritual aside when when you push that aspect of things out of the way the

58:37

The role of the Holy Spirit just looking at rational argumentation you end up limiting each one of us as To how much knowledge we can have and since none of us have all knowledge

58:50

None of us can be absolutely certain about anything and that's the problem that many of us have

58:56

Living in this day and age is that all the people around us have a worldview where they are at the center

59:04

Every aspect of knowledge they have to coordinate with every other aspect of knowledge and God religion

59:12

History, those are all simply viewed as things that we have to somehow coordinate together

59:18

We're in the center and any honest person knows I Don't know that much

59:26

The the more you learn the more you realize how little you actually know that's something old people say because it's true the amount of human knowledge is

59:38

Minuscule in comparison to God, but it's vast in comparison to me and anyone who doesn't realize that is a fool

59:48

They may think they're very white. They're a sophomore. They're a wise fool. That's what being a sophomore is and so When you if you approach it from that perspective and most people are approaching it from that perspective

01:00:03

That that's the only way you can put a number on something is

01:00:09

That you're saying well you know, I'm assigning a certain value and You know from what

01:00:16

I've seen I'm 80 percent 85 percent convinced now

01:00:23

I think that there is on a pastoral level a really good reason For apologetics to be done within the church because I would simply say from a pastoral perspective

01:00:35

That if you're only 85 percent sure you probably shouldn't be involved with apologetics

01:00:42

Just that I can't see how that's your calling if if if that's where you are,

01:00:48

I don't get that and you see if apologetics was done in the church and especially done by elders

01:00:57

Who are to be gifted to have the ability to do the things they've been called to do Then that's totally different than how we handle these things where Again, most apologists just do whatever they want to do and they go wherever they want to go.

01:01:11

They're not really Ministers in the church associated with the church. That's one of the major problems So I would say on that level if if your struggles with doubts are at that level

01:01:21

Maybe this isn't the area you should be working in but I Think That this opens the door and again, we could we could spend another hour literally on this and I'm not going to spend another hour

01:01:35

I just want to throw these things out there for your consideration. I Think we spend another hour talking about What it means to have assurance.

01:01:46

Yes on the subjective level the role the Holy Spirit of God All of that is a vitally important area

01:01:56

But what I want to focus on is the fact that I think you see here a

01:02:03

Fundamental difference between the kind of minimal facts apologetics that Michael Icona practices along with many other people the kind of minimal facts approach and what it results in and a much fuller

01:02:25

Biblical form of apologetics an apostolic form of apologetics. Oh, I just can't believe it say something like that.

01:02:31

Look These two forms of I've been criticizing this form of apologetics for a long long long long time

01:02:39

You can go back in the archives and I've played I don't know how many debates between Bart Ehrman and Michael Icona from the first time they started from the time he did the croaking debate where he had no voice and I think pretty much everyone since then we've played them and we've interacted with them

01:02:56

Yeah, we focused upon Ehrman But we've also had to focus upon like Ona because like Ona said a lot of things in those debates were like no

01:03:03

That's not how you respond to this. There's there's compromise here. This is this is not this is not the way to do it and I will not apologize for contrasting methods of apologetics, this is important stuff and And so it just seems to me

01:03:22

That when your argumentation is based upon the preponderance of the evidence pointing to the greater probability of the existence of a

01:03:37

God That that has an impact upon the individual utilizing that kind of argumentation

01:03:44

In other words as I've said all along your theology is supposed to determine your apologetics if your

01:03:53

Apologetics ends up determining your theology and your apologetics is primarily based upon Get the best percentage you can

01:04:02

What's your theology gonna look like? It's gonna get the best percentage you can

01:04:08

So hey 85 is pretty good But that's the difference that's the difference between the the minimalist facts approach and how the

01:04:19

Apostles approach it and How they absolutely emphasize the centrality of Jesus Christ and the reality that outside of the existence of the triune

01:04:32

God you can't explain having a debate on the existence of God or anything else that the the the epistemology of That puts man in the center and allows man to be the one to then coordinate all the areas of knowledge

01:04:50

Must collapse upon itself because man can never be there the epistemology that underlies a meaningful apologetic approach where God is in the center and you start with him and hence can provide a devastating internal critique of any other worldview and Show the consistency of your own

01:05:10

That doesn't leave you with percentages that actually leaves you with certainties now there is a

01:05:21

As someone said unsafe Facebook today in responses there is a Superrational not irrational that's irrational and superrational on the same thing there is a level of knowledge of truth that goes beyond merely the human plane and And there you can talk about the witness of the

01:05:45

Holy Spirit but there is also where you find these overarching realities of the consistency of worldviews and I think a lot of folks who would hear what dr.

01:05:59

Lycona says don't see or are not willing to see That on the level he's talking about they don't have any more

01:06:09

Certainty than he does they may pretend they do But the fact is he's heard a lot more objections than the vast majority of people who are going to Laugh at his 8085 number

01:06:22

But they're on there. They're actually just simply ignoring that reality. They're criticizing without knowing what the questions are.

01:06:31

I Don't think that's where we need to go I think what we need to see this as is an illustration of something more foundational more basic in Regards to what kind of apologetics is

01:06:42

Most consistent with the biblical revelation of the universe as God created it If God created the universe and defines all things

01:06:50

Then no worldview That starts with him anywhere else, but in the center is ever going to be able to reason its way out of a paper bag

01:07:01

It's not going to be able to give us a sound foundation for anything else

01:07:08

And it just seems to me that the argumentation that I've heard him using in theology because there's clearly he doesn't have

01:07:17

Doesn't have a warm spot in his heart for reformed theology now You might argue that's because he ran into people who were bad

01:07:25

Calvinists. Maybe his dad was a bad Calvinist. I don't know your experience

01:07:32

With someone can have great impact upon you But it's not going to be an excuse for believing sub -biblical theology

01:07:43

There are a lot of Calvinists who are jerks But if you can't tell the difference between the theology and the person who doesn't live consistently with the theology

01:07:54

That's going to be to your detriment. So That kind of well,

01:08:01

I met somebody hey, I've met all sorts of people who've been mean and nasty to me from other perspectives that that we can't allow that to become the

01:08:12

The lens through which we view everything else There clearly is a prejudice against reformed theology

01:08:20

But that reformed theology is central. I think to what you just heard. I think that's why you have the 80 85 percent is

01:08:29

Because the very grounding of the kind of certainty we can have that super rational certainty

01:08:35

Not the I've heard every objection haven't answered every objection type of certainty not the naturalistic rationalistic type but the consistent the consistent worldview type the worldview that makes sense of all

01:08:53

All of man's knowledge Even if you don't have all of it God's big enough to handle all of man's knowledge because he knows a lot more than man does

01:09:00

That's why this stuff's important. This this is apologetics and theology, but they They joined there.

01:09:07

You can't you can't separate them You can't keep them separated and a lot of people do that. They have that over here

01:09:13

They've compartmentalized this here there there and everywhere and that's that's a problem. That's a problem.

01:09:18

So there you go. I'm October 11th, huh, I think oh

01:09:27

That's same day. Yeah, I I will be in Australia October 11th

01:09:34

That'll be the weekend after the debates in Salt Lake City. So Obviously, it'll be recorded.

01:09:41

I'll get a chance to comment on it or whatever at some point and Well, I'm certainly interested.

01:09:49

I want to hear what Michael Akona has to say I want to see if my conclusions drawn from as many debates and his comments and the

01:09:58

Gospels and things like that Hold consistent. Was there something you were gonna do? Well, I was just gonna chime in there just a little bit and that was that in first of all

01:10:08

I look to the New Testament and I see what we are told in the regards to the attitude that we're supposed to have and I don't see

01:10:17

Paul writing in Philippians to Have this attitude among yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus pretty much for the most part.

01:10:27

Yeah The other side of the coin is if I were an atheist and maybe this has been

01:10:33

Argued with him before and I haven't heard it What I just saw on the screen there.

01:10:41

I Saw a man saying I'm 80 % sure maybe a little more But what wasn't said that I'm reading between the lines, maybe it's not fair But if I'm an atheist

01:10:50

I'm going for the throat on it and I'm saying you know what I'm a skeptic and so are you

01:10:57

You are 20 % skeptic. So how do I get you to 50? How do I get you to 55?

01:11:03

How do I get you to where you're 80 % skeptic just like I am. Yeah. Well and the interesting thing is

01:11:10

That William Lane Craig and and people like that use that incrementalism Let's let's get you to deism and then from deism to theism and then from theism to try to trinitarianism

01:11:21

And yeah, and it goes both directions. Yeah, it's just it's just a gradation at that point

01:11:28

Yeah, that's true. That's true Well, alrighty folks. There we go

01:11:35

I'm sure again. I was trying to obviously trying to make many friends and influence people today

01:11:40

And just wanted to take the easy road, you know, it's always just trying to be a man pleaser is what we're all

01:11:46

About here, but hopefully the the issues that we addressed today are important issues and somebody's got to talk about them

01:11:55

Without necessarily using a flamethrower in the process of so doing so I hope you heard what we had to say in the spirit in which it was offered and I'm sure we'll have some responses to look at the next time we get together on the dividing line next week.