James White and Jason Robinson Discuss Romans 8:28-34

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Well, greetings and welcome back to The Dividing Line. We have a dialogue today on the program, so I will introduce how we're going to do this, and we'll get right to it.

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We want to make sure to do this in an appropriate fashion. This will be a timed dialogue, there will be equal time for both sides.

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We are joined by Pastor Jason Robinson, who is going to be discussing with me the subject of Romans 8, verses 28 -34.

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I wrote to Pastor Robinson after seeing a video that he had posted in regards to myself and Pastor Jeff Durbin, and I invited him to come on the program and not have a debate about every topic under the sun, but instead to engage in an example of how each one of us handles the scriptures.

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And so, I suggested a key theological text, Romans 8, verses 28 -34.

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It is a deep text, it's not super long, we only have 15 minutes for each one of us to cover this text.

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That's not long enough to filibuster and to wander about too much, but should be long enough to at least cover the major elements of the text and to demonstrate a consistent interpretation.

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Then each of us will have 15 minutes to ask the other questions, not to filibuster and to drag the topics off into other areas, but specifically to ask questions concerning the other person's understanding of the same text.

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We need to stay in Romans 8, I'm not saying that cross -references can't be given or things like that, but we need to stay focused upon Romans 8.

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So, there'll be 15 minutes for each of us to give our presentations, then 15 minutes, that's each, so that's one half hour, then 15 minutes each cross -examination of the other on the person's exegesis, so that takes us to one hour, and then each of us will have five minutes to summarize our thoughts on the discussion.

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At that point, obviously, if you want to, Pastor Robinson, expand out beyond the topic, make applications, something like that, in that last five -minute closing statement type thing, that would certainly be understandable and acceptable.

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And so, the total of the discussion is 70 minutes, 70 minutes on that today.

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So, with that, as our guest, I have invited

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Pastor Robinson to have first shot at examining the text and giving us his understanding of Romans 8, verses 28 -34.

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So, Pastor Robinson, thank you very much for joining us, and if you'd like to begin, please do so.

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All right, thanks for having me. So, starting there in verse 28, we'll just read it.

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It says, and we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

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So, this first verse here is saying that all things work together for good, but there's a couple caveats to who that applies to.

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So, first, it says to them that love God and to them who are the called according to His purpose.

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And so, the first thing we see is to them that love God. Now, loving God is not being saved.

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I do believe to them who are the called according to His purpose is talking about salvation. But to them that love

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God is something that's on top of that, meaning not everybody that's saved loves God, because not everybody that's saved keeps all the commandments.

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And so, in John 14 -15, it says, if you love me, keep my commandments.

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And 1 John 5 -3, it says, for this is the love of God, that we keep

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His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous. And so, this promise is a great promise that all of us that are saved, but also that love

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God, meaning that we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight, that this promise of all things working together for good.

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Now, obviously, I don't believe this means that God decrees evil and that all this evil is working good, and that's what

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God decreed. But I do believe this is talking about tribulation, trials, and all that, which is actually what is talked about right after this portion of Scripture and the fact that we're going to suffer with Him, we're going to enter tribulations and all this.

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And so, this is a great promise to know that, hey, through all that, in the end, if you love God as a

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Christian, and you're keeping His commandments, all things will work together for good. In verse 29, it says, for whom

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He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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And then it goes on and says, moreover, whom He did predestinate, then He also called. And whom He called, then

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He also justified. And whom He justified, then He also glorified. So, I want to talk about this passage as far as predestination.

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So, this is probably one of the big topics to discuss as far as what is this talking about dealing with predestination.

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And the number one thing to see here is what it starts off with in verse 29, where it says, for whom

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He did foreknow. So, that's the key to understanding this passage. But also, what are we being predestinated to?

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It says in this passage, He also did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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Now, that term firstborn is very unique in the Bible, talking about Jesus, because it talks about how

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He's the firstfruits of the resurrection, or firstfruits of them that slept. He's the first begotten of the dead.

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So, we're talking about the resurrection, which no marvel was just talked about in Romans chapter 8.

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And so, we're being predestined to be conformed to His image. And I want to parallel this with Ephesians chapter 1.

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So, Ephesians chapter 1, and actually, in 1

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Peter as well, it says, because that foreknowledge is brought up again, it says in 1 Peter chapter 1, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the

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Father. And so, being elect, being predestinated, is based off of God's foreknowledge.

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So, we can't blame God for knowing the end from the beginning. But I do want to talk about this, because actually,

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Ephesians 1 is the only other place that the word predestination is used in the Bible. And so,

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I want to just go to that passage in Ephesians chapter 1. And actually, it reiterates itself in this, so it uses the word predestinate two times in this passage.

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But in verse 5, and we can obviously go back to this and look at it, but it says, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein

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He hath made us accepted in the beloved. So, notice that, what are we being predestinated for?

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The adoption of children and to the praise of the glory of His grace. But down further, it reiterates this whole point.

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And when you go down to verse 11, and again, I'm trying to do this in 15 minutes, so we can always go back to this, but it says, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worked with all things after the counsel of His own will, that we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.

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And this is where the foreknowledge comes in, meaning that God foreknew who would believe or who would trust in Christ, but they first trusted in Christ before they were predestined.

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And we can't blame God for knowing who's going to believe in the future, but what are we being predestinated for?

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Not to believe. It doesn't say that we are predestined to trust in Christ. It says we are predestinated who first trusted in Christ.

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And then it goes on to explain that even further. It says in verse 13, in whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with the

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Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of His glory.

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Now, this parallels perfectly with Romans chapter 8, because in Romans chapter 8, before we get to whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son.

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It says in Romans chapter 8, 23, it says, and not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the spirit, even we ourselves grown within ourselves, waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of our body.

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And so we see that adoption, a predestination of adoption of children. We see the fact of the redemption of the purchased possession and unto the praise of His glory and the earnest of the spirit dealing with the firstfruits of the spirit, where he sent the spirit of his son crying,

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Abba, Father. Talks about that in Galatians chapter 4 as well. And so this is very clearly just showing us it is a chain of events, meaning that he's stating that he predestinated those who would believe, because he foreknew who would believe, to be conformed to his image, to the image of his son.

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And it's specifically talking about the resurrection. Now, with this, you have to understand too, is that there's a difference between the old man and the new man, meaning that when we get saved, we have the adoption of children spiritually.

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And this is where 1 John chapter 3 talks about the fact that whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

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This is where, in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, it says that if you be in Christ and are ye a new creature, behold, all things are passed away, or I'm sorry, old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.

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That's talking about spiritually, but we still have our flesh and we're waiting for that adoption.

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We're waiting for the redemption of the body. And that was predestined from the foundation of the world, that those that believe will be conformed to his image.

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It says, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

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So we are the sons of God now spiritually, but we're waiting for that physical adoption, that physical where our body will be conformed to the image of his son.

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Now, as we go on in the passage there, and again, we can go a little more detail into this type of stuff, but doing this in 15 minutes

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I'm long -winded, so this might be challenging. But in verse 31 of Romans chapter 8, it says, what shall we say then, or what shall we then say to these things of God before us who can be against us?

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He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

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Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?

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It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

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Now honestly, this is pretty self -explanatory when it comes to what's being talked about here.

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I have a feeling that the discussion is going to be going into how we reject limited atonement, and the argument is going to be here,

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I'm guessing, is that we're dealing with universalism, which obviously we reject universalism.

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We don't believe everybody's getting saved. But in this passage particularly, it uses the pronoun us.

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It says us all, and freely give us all things. So in this context, obviously we're dealing with who he's writing to and applying him and whoever's writing this with him.

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It'd be like me at my church saying, hey, God has died for us all here. But obviously that doesn't exclude other people that are outside the church.

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But I do want to touch on that if I have a minute. I'm not sure what my time is.

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I should have had a stopwatch. You've got five minutes. So I want to talk about that aspect of the universalism, because one of the main verses

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I used in my sermon was Romans 5, verse 18, where it talks about, therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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And so obviously the argument is universalism. Basically, okay, well, if this is talking about all men are condemned, then are all men getting saved?

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But I want to just explain this in the fact that it's talking about the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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It doesn't mean that they all accepted that free gift. This goes back to Titus 2, verse 11, for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

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Now, Dr. White, if you want to get into that later, we can, as far as explaining Titus 2. I remember you talking about that, but we can definitely get into that.

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But I want to go to Hebrews, chapter 6, because I want to prove that that gift came upon people was actually tasted by people that are clearly not saved.

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And so Hebrews, chapter 6, in verse 4, it says, for it is possible for those who are once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the

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Holy Ghost and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucified to themselves, the

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Son of God afresh, and put into an open shame. So I believe this is talking about those that God has given over to a reprobate mind, but they did taste of that heavenly gift, meaning that they knew

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God, but they glorified Him not as God. They held the truth in unrighteousness. So I do believe that they even tasted of that gift.

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They tasted of the word of God. And that gift came upon all men, but it's only on those that accept that gift or that believe on the

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Lord Jesus Christ that that gift is imputed unto them. Second Peter talks about the fact that,

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Second Peter 2, verse 1, it says, but there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privilege shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the

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Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction. So I believe even the false prophet,

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God bought them, but it goes into the fact that He's the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

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So I don't want to go any further, because I'll probably go over on time on that. Okay, you actually still have two and a half minutes.

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Do you want to just move on? Let me do mine, or what? Yeah, I should have done a stopwatch.

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I meant to do that, but I didn't do it. Things you learn first time around, yeah. Yeah, it's the first time I've ever done this, but yeah,

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I mean, I have other verses, obviously, going into the fact that the gospel was revealed unto all.

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In Romans chapter 10, it talks about, had they not heard, yes, verily, their sound went unto all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world, but they have not all obeyed the gospel, obviously.

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So, but yeah, you can go ahead, and then obviously, we can, when you get into the critique,

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I can get into more detail on that stuff. Okay, all right. All right, thank you, sir. Let me reset the, unfortunately,

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I got, my timer has a beep beep on it, so. All right, I'll start my timer and invite everyone to go back to Romans 8, 28.

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Obviously, this is a continuation of Paul's argumentation going all the way through the book of Romans.

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He has established justification now in chapter 8. He is really reaching the pinnacle of his argument, which is going to transition into chapters 9, 10, and 11 in regards to the unbelief of Israel and what

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God's purposes are in that situation. So, he's summarizing things, and he says in verse 8, we know that to those who love

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God, all things work together for the good to those who are called according to his purpose.

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The phrase is, those loving God and those who are called according to his purpose are put in direct parallel to one another, because those who love

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God are those who have been called by God. And of course, that calling originates in God, it is not based upon,

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I mean, if I call someone, that originates within me, so God is the one who is doing the calling.

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And so, the assertion that is being made here requires the theology that has come before, and that is that God is sovereign over all events in human history.

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Otherwise, when you think of all of the free will acts of mankind, God would not be able to make the promise that in the lives of his chosen people, who are the people who love

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God, that all things work together for the good, especially given the fact that the Christian people experience tribulation and persecution, and yet the promise of God is in the midst of all of that, he has a purpose that he is accomplishing in and through his people.

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That is what then prompts the discussion that comes in verses 29 and 30, which is one whole unit that must be understood together.

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And what we need to see is that there are certain verbs, there are certain actions that God undertakes in verses 29 through 30, which is the reason that theologians and exegetes down through the centuries have identified verses 29 and 30 as the golden chain of redemption.

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And specifically, each one of these is an action on God's part. They are not passive actions on God's part, they are actions that God undertakes.

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So, foreknowing is not having foreknowledge. This is a verb. And so, we need to have a discussion of what it means to—what's different between God passively having knowledge of future events or foreknowing someone.

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But notice that the verbs are to foreknow, to predestine, to call, to justify, and to glorify.

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And each one of these is an action that God undertakes. In none of these verbs is there room for mankind adding something to what

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God has done. This is the basis of the explanation the apostle provides for his own promise in verse 28, is that the reason we can know that all these things work together for good is because we have a sovereign

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God who is able to do all of these things. So, what are the things he does? Because those whom he foreknew.

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Now again, the background of this, the Hebrew term yadah, to know. When Adam yadad

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Eve, she had a child. When God yadad knew

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Israel, many translations will even say chose Israel above all other nations.

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He knew Israel only, that is, he chose Israel. To foreknow is an active thing, and every single time when

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God is said to engage in the verbal action of foreknowing, the object is a person, never events in history.

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And so, I will challenge Pastor Robinson, if you're going to take the perspective that what he foreknows are actions, knowing that what we're going to do, then this is the only place in the

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Bible that ever happens. Every other time where God foreknows, he foreknows Jesus, he foreknows

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Israel, and he foreknows us. He foreknows people, not actions. Not what they do, but who they are.

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This is a loving choice to enter into relationship with someone. And so, this loving choice means that he predestines that we be conformed to the image of his

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Son. Now, the only way that a rebel sinner can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ is to encompass the entirety of the work of salvation itself.

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Regeneration, adoption, forgiveness of sins, sanctification, it is all seen in being conformed to the image of Christ.

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Everything to final glorification, resurrection, it is all there. In other words, God's purpose in foreknowing a particular people is to form the body of Christ for the glory of the triune

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God, to join them to that body, and that is going to result in, inevitably, their salvation, their regeneration, their forgiveness, their justification, their glorification.

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That is what is going to be taking place, but it's all in Christ, which is the parallel to Ephesians 1, where every single aspect of what

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God does in Ephesians 1 is in him, in the beloved, in Christ. Only in Christ, the gospel message is an exclusive message in and through the triune

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God and his work only in the person of Jesus Christ. The result of this is so that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.

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So, Jesus is the prototokos, he is the firstborn, he is the one who has preeminence over all others in Colossians chapter 1, where that terminology is used.

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And so, here is the forming of the body of Christ. Christ is the one who is going to form that body by his means, by his power, and we are being conformed to his image as a result of that sovereign purpose of God, which is why, again, we can know that all things work together for good to those who love

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God, to those who are called according to his purpose. Four, he continues on, those whom he predestined, these he also called.

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And so, this has to be the same group all the way through. We have to have consistency here.

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Who is foreknown are those who are predestined, and those who are predestined are those who are called.

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Now, very clearly, the term calling in the New Testament, you have a general call that goes out, the gospel call goes out to all people.

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But as Paul said, there is a calling that resulted in his salvation. There is an action of God specifically that results in the salvation of these specific individuals.

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And if you are called by God in this way, that results in your justification.

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Now, keep in mind, we know that we are justified by faith, but there's nothing in here about faith. God is the one who justifies.

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God is the one who calls. God is the one who predestines. God is the one who foreknew. Active verbs, each and every one.

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These are actions that God takes, and the results are infallible, and it's always the same group.

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There is a specific group, and that group has been identified as those who are called according to his purpose. In verse 28, we're going to see down in verse 33, they're going to be re -identified in the same way.

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This text is consistent all the way through. And so, the calling is effective, it results in justification, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified.

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There will not be any who receive the justifying grace of God who are declared righteous before God, who will not persevere unto exaltation, glorification in the presence of God.

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Now, that's such an incredible text that Paul says, what shall we say to these things?

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Because that is a tremendous promise. What shall we say to these things? For if God is for us in our behalf, who can possibly be against us?

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If God has done all of these things, and it's all of God and not any of us, then who could possibly be against us?

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And that really is a rhetorical question that has no answer. But then he expands even further upon this.

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He did not spare his own son, but in behalf of us, freely gave him over, giving – the term pyrididyme there is the same term that's used of Judas's, turning

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Jesus over, betraying Jesus, giving Jesus over. In behalf of us, huper is a term of substitution.

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This is substitutionary atonement, and it's substitutionary atonement for a specific people already defined back in verse 28 as those called by God.

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He gave his own son up in behalf of us all, and in light of that, how shall he not together with him freely, same term for grace, give to us all things?

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Again, only in Christ, in light of the giving of the son to a specific people. This is the foundation of verse 28, the great promise there.

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It's continuing on through the text. And then he takes us into the law court.

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Who will bring a charge against who? The elect of God.

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That is a specific people. That's reasserting what we saw in verse 28. That's the ones for whom the son is given.

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It's a specific people, and the question that is asked is who can bring a charge against the elect of God?

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We might ask, who can bring a charge against those who are not the elect of God? Well, we know who that is because the reason this is a rhetorical question and that there is no one who can bring a charge against the elect of God is because of the law court situation that is presented to us here.

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Notice, God is the ha -dikion, the one justifying.

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God is the one justifying. That's the role of the judge on the bench.

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When the judge brings down the gavel and says, righteous or just, that is the judge giving his judgment.

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And God, the father, is the justifier. He has said, you are just.

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How did that happen? Because of the work of Jesus Christ in behalf of the elect of God.

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Who then is the one bringing judgment or condemnation? It's the exact same term that is used in legal documents of that day of bringing a charge against someone who is condemning

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Christ Jesus, the one who died, rather the one who rose.

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I love that because he gives his life, but because he has risen, he is now seated at the right hand of God and that at that position, he now intercedes kuper haimon, for us.

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Who is the us? The elect of God. For whom does Christ intercede? His work of intercession means there can be no condemnation because it is specifically for a specific people who have died in him.

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They have his righteousness. God has declared them righteous. Do you see how this is absolutely, completely a presentation of the

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God -centeredness of the Christian gospel? God accomplishes this. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bring this about completely and totally to the glory of the

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God. And so, in this last section, verse 34, we have this idea who is at the right hand of God.

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This is the exaltation of the Son. Psalm 110 .1, the most quoted verse in the Old Testament in the New Testament, seated at my right hand.

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So, there was no place in the holy place for the high priest to sit, but Jesus has sat down at the right hand because he has offered the one and final sacrifice in behalf of the elect of God.

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And now, he is seated there and we, a specific people united with him, have his righteousness.

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And therefore, there can be no condemnation. There can be no charge brought against us because the intermediary, the mediator has been accepted by the judge.

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Since he has sat down at the right hand of glory, his work has been accepted. He has sat down there.

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We are united with him. We have his righteousness. And so, the whole question is, how can anyone bring a charge against those where the judge has said righteous?

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The one he himself sent has died in their behalf. He intercedes for them through the presentation of his finished work in their behalf, which means his finished work is sufficient to bring about the perfect salvation of anyone, which is exactly the point that is made in Hebrews 7 .24.

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He is able to save completely those who draw nigh unto God through him. Why? Because he ever lives to make intercession for him.

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If we ever look for anything outside of the interceding work of Christ to save us, we have missed the point because that's the only thing that can save us.

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That's the only thing that can bring us true and final salvation. And so, the reason for verse 28, a verse that is quoted at almost every

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Christian funeral, the theology that underlies that is what is unpacked in verses 29 through 34.

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And so, when we—I worked as a hospital chaplain, for example—and when we quote that verse at the casket, when we quote that verse at the funeral and say that God causes all things to work together for good for those who love

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God, for them who are called according to his purpose, the reason we can say that is because the gospel is about the power of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to accomplish that which they decreed in eternity past to accomplish in salvation of their people.

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And that's what then leads into the tremendous song that comes after this in verse 35 and following, who will separate us from the love of Christ.

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And all these things in creation cannot begin to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ.

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Why? Because of something we're going to do? Because of something we allowed him to do? No. Fully, totally, and completely.

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Because of the finished work of Jesus Christ, our mediator, who stands in the presence of the

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Father, at the right hand of the Father, intercedes for us. That is our only hope.

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That is the message of this beautiful text. Okay, managed to get that in with eight seconds free.

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So, with that, hopefully you can—Pastor

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Robinson, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. So, I have 15 minutes to ask you questions?

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Is that how we're doing this? Yes, sir. And then I'll have 15 minutes to ask you. Okay, so the first verse

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I want to get to there, where you said, all things God decrees all things to work together for good, that's not what it says.

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It says we know that all things work together for good, and I do reject what your version or whatever you're using there to say that there are two caveats there.

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It says to them that love God and to them who are the called according to his purpose, and all

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I heard, honestly, with your explanation was a bunch of esoteric arguments and no scripture, but I do have a question for you when it comes to that idea of God decreeing everything and everything that happens, the sovereignty of God, as you would say.

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So, let me ask you a question. I mean, do you believe that God decrees molestation, or murder, or, you know, let's say abortion?

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Do you believe God is sovereign over that, that he decrees for that to happen?

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Well, there are a couple questions there. First of all, you seem to dispute the relationship between those who love

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God and those who are called according to his purpose. However, in the original language, I wasn't using an English translation, I was translating the

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Greek directly, and in the original language, those are parallel phraseologies, and they are meant to be the same group.

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So, those who love God and those who are called according to his purpose are the same group, and you would have to dispute that on the basis of the original language.

33:45

Secondly, when it says sunergais agathon, works together for the good, it is perfectly appropriate to recognize that it is

33:54

God who is doing that working together. You have to provide the subject. I do not believe in a fate,

33:59

I don't believe in the universe operating in and of itself, and in answer to your question, I believe Psalm 135 .6,

34:05

that God does whatever pleases in heaven and the earth, I believe that, as Nebuchadnezzar recognized in Daniel chapter 4, he accomplishes his purpose among men,

34:13

Psalm 33 says the exact same thing, and so hence, in answer to your large theodicy question,

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I do believe that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass, and that therefore, everything that happens in this universe has a purpose.

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I do not believe in a God who, though knowing what the future would be, created a mass of purposeless evil, and then tells us to worship him when he created all of this, knew it was going to happen, and did nothing about it.

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I believe, just as Jacob did in Genesis chapter 50, you intended this for evil,

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God intended it for good. So, in any act of human sin, there is the intention to the glorification of God and to what is good in God's behalf, and then man is judged for the evil intention of his heart, just as in Genesis 50,

35:06

Isaiah chapter 10, and the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to Acts 4, 27 -28. Well, let me ask you this, in Jeremiah 19, when it's talking about, it says in verse 5 of Jeremiah 19, it says, they have built us to high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings on the

35:25

Baal, which I commanded not nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.

35:32

Can you answer that verse with that theological reasoning, that God is decreeing that?

35:38

Sure, given the fact that the Bible says that God not only is the creator of all things, but he knows the end from the beginning,

35:45

I'm not an open theist, I do not believe open theism is within the realm of orthodoxy.

35:50

And so obviously, when you use a phrase such as, entered into my mind, you're talking about something that you desire, or something that you would maybe command of his people.

35:59

The people were saying that their offerings to Moloch were consistent, at least, with their worship of Yahweh, which was untrue.

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God never commanded them to do any of those things, they were clearly engaging in syncretistic worship, where they were joining

36:13

Moloch worship together with Yahweh worship in the high places. And so, if you're actually asserting that God was shocked and surprised and had no idea from eternity past, those people were doing these things, that means

36:27

God learned something, that God was not perfect before he learned this.

36:33

And I reject that, that is completely out of harmony with the entirety of Isaiah 40 -48, that would destroy the entire argument that is presented there as to the very nature of Yahweh.

36:43

And so, you need to interpret that language within the plain statements of scripture, that God knows all future events, and he also knows all past events, and why those past events took place.

36:56

So, it is simply a matter of allowing all of scripture to speak. Let me ask you, well, so let's go on to a different, kind of going on with the predestination.

37:08

Do you have anything from Romans 8 that you'd like to talk about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's what I want to talk about, is verse 29 and 30.

37:16

I would like you to answer, though, when you're dealing with predestination, answering

37:22

Ephesians 1 -12, where it says, who first trusted in Christ, because you said the foreknowledge, you said, because it's a verb, it can't be applying to an action.

37:31

But in 1 Peter, it says, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the

37:38

Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling the blood of Jesus Christ. And so, if we first trusted in Christ before we're predestinated, then how can you say there was no action done by the person at all?

37:55

Okay. Well, I don't understand the interpretation of Ephesians 1 that goes to verse 12 and reads it back into verse 3.

38:02

That's called reading something backwards. A simple, basic rule of exegesis is you follow the sentences through in the order in which they were written.

38:11

And when you do that, you go back to the specific assertion of the text, which says, beginning in verse 3, blessed be the

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God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who blessed us in all heavenly places with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

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So, the direct object of the verb to choose in verse 4 is us.

38:39

It's not Christ. We are chosen in him. No one is chosen outside of Christ, but the direct object of the verb is us.

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And so, God is engaging in an active verbal action here where he chooses us so that we might, and he does so before the foundation of the world, so that we might be holy and blameless before him.

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The only way that we can be holy and blameless before him is that this choice involves the entirety of his redemptive purpose, which includes the forgiveness of sins, which is what then comes out in the rest of verse 5, having predestined us unto adoption through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the kind intention of his will, the praise of his glorious grace, which he graced us in the beloved one.

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And then that's how we have redemption. All of this comes before verse 12, because once you get down past 11, you get into the application of the eternal choices that were made before, now in time.

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He chose the first century Christians to be saved, and he chose 20th century, 21st century

39:44

Christians to be saved, and that means that that eternal choice has to be actuated in time.

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And so, the early Christians experienced that. I didn't experience it back then because I didn't yet exist.

39:58

But his eternal choice determines not only what takes place in the first century, but in the 21st century as well.

40:05

So, once you get down to verses 12 and following, my faith, which is a gift from God, Ephesians 2,

40:11

Philippians 129, my faith is the result of his decree in eternity past.

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That's if you allow the language of Ephesians to flow naturally and not read it backwards.

40:24

I disagree with that. I mean, when you're looking at this passage, when you're going from verse 3 down to verse 6, it's all a complete thought dealing with what we're talking about here, the fact that God chose us from the foundation of the world, which is predicated off of us believing, because it's clear that there's a condition to salvation according to Romans chapter 10.

40:47

But it also says that in the next passage, because when you go down the verse from verse 7 down to verse 12, you're dealing with one sentence.

40:57

One sentence that, in the end of that sentence, it's saying that all this stuff was predicated on the fact that we first trusted in Christ.

41:07

Well, you're making an assertion, you're not asking me a question. That predestination is not determined. You're not predestinated until we trust in Christ.

41:16

Okay, you're supposed to be asking me questions, you're making an assertion. I can refute that, but I'm going to have to challenge you to do that.

41:23

This is your time to be asking me questions. You're just making assertions, so I don't know what to do at this point.

41:29

I've never done this, like, questioning back and forth, so I'm not sure how we're supposed to be doing it.

41:34

Well, okay, so I dispute and reject the assertion that there is anything in Ephesians 1 or Romans 8 that says that predestination is based upon human faith.

41:44

You haven't demonstrated that. If you're actually asserting that you have to go down to verses 12 and 14 and read them back to the beginning, that is a fundamental violation of every rule of interpretation of any language known to man that I can imagine.

41:59

And what you're saying is, Paul actually spoke backwards. That does not make any sense.

42:05

We have to derive our beliefs from the text of scripture, rather than going, well, over in Romans 10,

42:11

I interpret that to mean this, and therefore I'm going to put it in here, and therefore it can't mean all these things. That's not how you demonstrate the

42:18

Trinity, that's not how you demonstrate the resurrection, that's not how you demonstrate any of those things, and so that's not how you deal with this issue either.

42:27

The text says that God chose us before we existed unto these things, and the result of that is that we have believed in time.

42:37

And the fact is, this writer does say that faith and repentance are gifts of God.

42:44

Philippians 1 .29 specifically says it has been granted to us to believe in him. That is the assertion of the very same writer of the

42:52

Epistle to the Church at Ephesus as well. So, I'm allowing the text to read in its order and deriving my beliefs directly from the grammar of the text, rather than bringing something in from someplace else.

43:05

But again, I'm getting the assumption in these last four minutes, there's nothing that I said about Romans 8, and he gave his son in behalf of the elect, there's nothing there that you have any questions about?

43:21

Yeah, I guess, so what's your assertion? I guess I'm not sure what your assertion is there.

43:27

I mean, obviously I believe that God will not lay anything to God's elect, and he is talking about how he's making an intercession for those that are elect, but I'm not sure what your assertion is there.

43:39

Well, okay, well, let me ask, let me put it this way. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is interceding for all people?

43:46

Not until they get saved. Not till they get saved. Okay, well,

43:53

I'm gonna, that's a question I'm gonna get to in my time, I don't want to take your time, but do you have, so you're saying, okay, here's my assertion, if you say you don't understand it, there is a very clear consistency in Romans 8.

44:08

In Romans 8 .28, you have the elect of God called according to his purpose. In verse 33, who will bring a charge against the elect of God?

44:17

The term to elect means to choose. God has chosen a specific people, and according to verse 32,

44:26

Jesus the Son is given in behalf of a specific people with the result that the intercession of the

44:35

Son and the death of the Son, they are connected together. Jesus only intercedes for the people for whom he died.

44:43

The high priest, when he offered the sacrifice on Yom Kippurim, would then take that blood into the holy place and sprinkle it upon the altar.

44:53

The same people for whom the sacrifice was made are the same people for whom the intercession is made.

45:00

Jesus is interceding only for the elect of God, which is why only the elect of God are saved, and saved perfectly.

45:08

That's my assertion. Is there, did I clarify that? I understand your assertion.

45:14

Obviously, I don't agree. I don't know how, so, I can't respond to that, so we're just me asking you questions, you're giving your thoughts.

45:22

Is that how we're doing? Well, but may I suggest that maybe what you could do is, if you say you disagree, maybe you could ask a question that would illustrate where you think what

45:31

I just said is not directly derived from the text of Romans 8 .32

45:37

and 33. Is there something in the text that would say to you, that is not what's being said?

45:43

Yeah, I mean, in the text it doesn't say, it's not saying this is dealing with all people, meaning that because he makes intercession for us doesn't mean that this is inclusive to us only, meaning that this is saying he makes intercession for us, therefore he only died for us, and that just because he only makes intercession for us doesn't mean that that he didn't die for everybody.

46:07

Okay, so let me put into the question, what evidence would I have that the intercessory work of Christ and the atoning work of Christ have the same audience?

46:19

And maybe you didn't catch what I had pointed out there. This is brought out more plainly in Hebrews 7 through 10, but it is here as well, because of the use of substitutionary language in verse 32.

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He who did not hold back his own son, but delivered him over, huper haemon.

46:40

For whom was the son delivered? It is for the elect of God. To whom, when it says, how shall ye not with him freely give us all things?

46:49

Does God give all things to those who are in hell? To those who will never be redeemed? No. This is a specific people, the atoning sacrifice in verse 32, the intercession, the intercessory work in verse 33, same people, and that's the foundation of salvation, which is why

47:08

Hebrews 7 says he is able to save completely, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

47:15

That's the 15 minutes. Let me clear this. And, you ready?

47:22

Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. I'd like to stay in the text as much as we, as I possibly can.

47:29

Could you please explain those, verse 28, to those who are called according to his purpose.

47:38

Um, in light of the use of the term calling in verse 30, those who are called are also justified.

47:47

Does, do you understand this to mean all people or is there only a specific people who are called according to his purpose?

47:55

Well, obviously, I believe everybody's called to, to get saved. Uh, but when it's talking about called according to his purpose,

48:03

I believe the fact that you're dealing with the purpose and grace, like it says in second Timothy chapter, uh, one.

48:09

And so obviously we're election according to grace. So when we're dealing with called according to his purpose, it's not, it's giving you a subset of the called.

48:17

And so when you get down to verse 30, you're obviously dealing with those that are saved.

48:23

So it wouldn't be wrong to say that I'm the called when I'm saved.

48:28

And it wouldn't be wrong to say that other people are called to, but obviously when we're talking about here specifically are those that were predestinated to be conformed to his image based off God's foreknowledge.

48:39

Okay. And so, all right. So, uh, let's, let's talk about that for a second. Uh, could you show me any place in the

48:46

New Testament where God engages in the verbal form, which is found here in verse 29, where he foreknows actions of human beings?

49:02

What do you mean for just in the verb form or what? Well, do you, do you understand the difference between doing an action to foreknow someone over against the passive idea of simply possessing knowledge of future events?

49:18

Yes. I understand the difference between the two. Okay. So you're saying, so you're saying that foreknow, meaning he just foreknows who the person was.

49:28

Well, is that what you're saying? Well, maybe I could, help me, help me to understand what you think the phrase, whom he foreknew means from the text.

49:41

For whom he foreknew. Yeah. The first, the first, the first word, the first words of verse 29. Yeah. So for whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

49:52

When you compare that to Ephesians chapter one, it's clear that you're talking about who first trusted in Christ. Okay.

49:58

He foreknew the person that trusted in Christ to be, to be, and then he predestinated that person to be conformed to the image of his son.

50:07

So he knew what they were going to do, and on the basis of their action does everything else.

50:15

Yes. So if it, in Romans chapter 10, if thou shalt confess with thine mouth the

50:23

Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart then thou shalt be saved.

50:29

Salvation is based off of a condition of us believing, and that's what Ephesians one says, and Romans chapter eight is reiterating the fact that it's based off God's foreknowledge that were predestinated to be conformed to his image.

50:44

Okay. Because he knew who would first trust in Christ. And when you go to verse 13, it's giving you the clear, the clear progression of salvation.

50:55

The clear progression is, or verse 13, in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, you were sealed with the

51:05

Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, until unto the praise of his glory.

51:14

This exact same thing happens in Romans chapter 10, dealing with, for whosoever to call upon the name of the

51:20

Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? How shall they believe in him in whom they have not heard?

51:26

And how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach except to be sent, as it is written, how beautiful are the feet of him that preacheth the gospel of peace?

51:32

And so, you asked me the fact of... I'm asking you about Romans eight, which we left about three minutes ago.

51:41

This is all intertwined. And to say that, to say, you know, well this isn't exegesis, or this isn't the best way to exegete this passage, then you're going to have the conflict with the writers of the

51:53

New Testament, when everything that they're writing, they're giving you little portions of scripture.

51:58

And so... You know, I agree with that a thousand percent, but the problem is, I asked you a specific question about Romans 8 -29, and so you seemingly are telling us that the

52:09

Romans needed to know what Paul wrote to the Ephesians to figure out what he's writing to Romans, because we need that extra information to actually, that the verbal form here is not enough to actually communicate something to us.

52:21

And what you did is you defaulted... I think you need to read Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 before you get to chapter 8.

52:30

That's right. And it's very clear in all those chapters that it's by faith that we're justified.

52:37

No one's arguing that. And faith is the condition for salvation. No one's even arguing that, but we are arguing...

52:44

When you get to Romans chapter 8. But the question I would have, you never answered how you answer

52:51

Ephesians 1 -12, where it says who first trusted in Christ. I did. I pointed out that you're reading things backwards, and now you're reading things out of context.

52:59

But the point is, you have not yet dealt with the reality that verse 29 is a verb, because your interpretation, with all the other places you ran to, your interpretation is that God passively had knowledge of who was going to believe in him before they believed in him, and therefore he acts based upon what his creation does.

53:22

That is not what pro -egno means in Romans 8 -29, and you have not established that.

53:29

And I asked you, can you show us any place else where God engages in this action, and the result, and what's known, is simply actions?

53:39

You didn't show us anything, you went someplace else. I just want to point that out. So let me ask you something.

53:45

You do understand that in the calling of verse 30, that's only for specific people, so God only calls those he foreknows, he has foreknowledge of, are going to respond to him?

54:00

No, that's not what it says. What does it say? It's saying that whom he did predestinate, then he called.

54:07

So of course he calls those that he knew would believe, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't call everybody else.

54:13

It doesn't negate the fact that he calls the whole world to be saved. Okay, we're having some...

54:20

I don't understand how he can say that just because I'm called by God and I got saved, that that negates the fact that God called everybody to get saved.

54:32

Okay, we're... unfortunately you started doing the Max Headroom thing, and you know how these...

54:38

sometimes Skype and stuff like that starts sounding a little strange. Sometimes that clears up, and sometimes it doesn't.

54:48

Let's... I'm going to stop the time here just for a second. I think the live stream's been...

54:56

We've been struggling? Yeah, I mean, it was cut now, and I'm kind of getting some messages from people

55:03

Yeah, well, we're recording it, so we'll definitely have the full thing up. Okay, unfortunately you're still sounding sort of bad there.

55:14

Hear me now? Well, I can hear you, but you sound like you're calling in from Mars, which is not best.

55:23

That is one of the problems with this. Might it be possible, Rich, to try to re -establish the connection and pick up?

55:33

I can try. Hold on one second. Let me try to take out my microphone or my... I don't think it has... Well, you can try that if you'd like.

55:40

Okay. Hear me now? Nah, it's the connection.

55:46

Okay. You're just... once you hear it, you'll be able to see that it's... you just don't sound good.

55:54

So you... what do you think, Rich? Because I don't think there's a whole lot of reason to go with his...

56:01

the quality that low. He's cogitating.

56:13

What's that? Okay, could you try one more thing? Could you say something more for us? Can you hear me?

56:19

Yeah, yeah, just... it's just... it's a bad... it just dropped out. It's like sunspots or something, but we're...

56:25

it's probably dark back there. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know. When I was watching you guys earlier, it was... your live stream was cutting in and out.

56:31

Yeah, yeah, but you were doing fine. Your quality was fine up until a point just a few moments ago.

56:41

So, what do you say, Rich? You can't... yeah,

56:49

I understand. Well, I don't want to ask you to make your comments when

56:57

I'm the only one that can be heard very well. So I don't know what other mechanism we could use to hook up other than totally starting...

57:05

We can try to get him to phone in. Would you be willing to do that, Jason? I can put him on the punchline.

57:14

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's only a few more minutes, so... Yeah, you just have a number

57:19

I can call. Okay, Rich, can you talk to him? Okay, yeah, it's...

57:25

can you write it down? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. 877 -753 -3341.

57:37

877 -753 -3341. That's a toll -free number. Okay, I'll... Okay. Do you want me to get out of this?

57:44

Yeah, yeah, we'll just shut that down, and we'll put you straight on the air. We can continue our conversation for the last few minutes.

57:52

So, did you mute him? Okay, all right. Sorry about that, folks. Technology is technology. Zoom has worked really well for us.

57:59

Skype does the same type of thing. Sometimes you get internet issues.

58:05

We don't know why it is. I have no earthly idea, but we were approximately eight minutes...

58:13

I'll just go back and set that. We're approximately eight minutes into my cross -examination time, and so if we can get

58:22

Pastor Robinson back... Okay, are you able to hear me now?

58:36

Yes, no, maybe. Okay, can you hear me now? Hello?

58:44

Pastor Robinson. Now, this should work pretty easily. It's our regular phone system.

58:55

Testing, one, two, three. What's...

59:06

Testing, are you there? We do open phones all the time.

59:14

There's got to be something that has been switched off, muted. I can hear you now.

59:19

I got you now. Okay, all right. Man. Now, please tell me that your battery has...

59:26

Please... Is he not able to hear me? Hello? Now, testing, one, two, three.

59:33

Can you hear me? I can hear you. Okay. Oh, finally. Wow. Okay, now, please tell me your battery has more than 10 % on it.

59:42

I'm on a landline. Landline! Okay, all right. So, here's the situation.

59:47

We had eight minutes left. We'll finish that up. Then we've got five minutes each, and we're done.

59:55

So, that should be fairly quick. So, hopefully, we can just pick up right back up where we were.

01:00:01

All right, I'm hitting the start button here. All right, so, I'm trying to stay within Romans chapter 8 as much as possible.

01:00:10

And so, the last thing that we had mentioned... So, the calling of verse 30 results in justification.

01:00:20

So, God's calling results in justification. Would that not thereby necessitate human faith as under the action of God, or would you just simply say, well, all this is just based upon God for knowing that we believe anyways?

01:00:40

Yeah, well, I mean, obviously, He has to call us before we can believe. So, the predestination is predicated off of us believing, but I believe it's basically restating the fact that, hey, this is the...

01:00:57

Obviously, the predestination has to happen at the foundation of the world, right? So, that's key. But when it came into actually our realm of time,

01:01:06

He's not actually calling us until we're actually here on the earth, you know, until I'm born. So then, you have the calling, justification once we believed on Him, and then, obviously, the glorification that comes later, which

01:01:21

I believe the glorification is inward in our soul, but obviously, we're waiting for the resurrection with the glorification of our body.

01:01:30

So, that hasn't happened completely yet, according to Romans 8 earlier in the passage.

01:01:36

So, but I do believe that we're called according to His purpose and grace, but it's also the fact that we obeyed the truth.

01:01:47

It talks about the fact of, I believe in 2 Thessalonians, where it talks about sanctification of spirit and belief of the truth.

01:01:55

He's chosen us to salvation through that, you know, sanctification of spirit and belief of the truth, which goes with Titus as well.

01:02:03

Titus 3, where it talks about the fact that we're saved not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to His mercy, by the washing and regeneration and renewing of the

01:02:14

Holy Ghost, which He shed on us through Jesus Christ our Savior, that we might be justified by grace, according to the hope of eternal life.

01:02:23

And so, I do believe, obviously, all this works together, but I do believe that verse 30 is just talking about believers, but I don't believe that it's negating the fact that that doesn't mean other people aren't called.

01:02:36

Like, I wouldn't put called as being saved, meaning that that's equated with saved, because it says many are called and few are chosen, so I don't see how you could do that.

01:02:47

Okay, let's look at verse 34, maybe we can wrap up with this. When the text says that He intercedes for us, for whom do you see

01:02:59

Jesus interceding before the Father? The saved. So, Jesus does not intercede for the lost at all?

01:03:12

I like the lost. People who are lost today, they're not saved yet. Jesus isn't interceding for them?

01:03:20

No, not until they're saved, not until the blood's applied. I don't believe we can come boldly unto the throne of grace, or that we can, you know, 1

01:03:30

John talks about the fact that if we confess our sins, He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

01:03:36

I do believe the intercession that you're dealing with here is the fact that we have our soul that's perfect and sinless, but we have our body that still has sin, and so He's daily making intercession for us, and we should be confessing our sins daily to make intercession for us.

01:03:53

But obviously, He's not making intercession for those that aren't saved yet.

01:03:59

So what makes Jesus an effective intercessor before the

01:04:05

Father? And if the blood of Christ makes

01:04:11

Him, I mean, obviously His death, His death, burial, and resurrection, Ephesians, I'm sorry,

01:04:18

Isaiah 53 obviously talks about an intercession for the transgressors, so everything dealing with how

01:04:25

He brought salvation gives Him the right. Do you see, then, in verse 32, when the

01:04:32

Son is given in behalf of us, and then the intercession is on behalf of us, do you not see that it's the same audience for whom

01:04:41

He's given, and that He then intercedes? Well, I mean, you could say that in a group right now.

01:04:49

It doesn't mean it's all -inclusive, though, meaning that when it's talking about this passage, He's saying, for us all.

01:04:55

And so when you look at the fact that you're dealing with who

01:05:02

He's writing to, and so when He says, we or us in this passage, I believe

01:05:07

He's talking to individuals, which I don't even think that this is, He's even just talking to the elect in general.

01:05:13

I mean, as far as, like, all the elect, I think He's just talking about, hey, this is, we're elect, we're saved, and He's interceding for us because He died for us.

01:05:23

And so it'd be like me saying this to people in my church, knowing that we're not the only faith people in the world, so it's not like this is all -inclusive, so...

01:05:34

But don't you see Romans 8 as being a universal statement to all Christians at all times?

01:05:41

I mean, the promises of the intercessory work of the Spirit, no condemnation, how can this be limited primarily to the

01:05:49

Romans? I'm not saying it's limited to the Romans or even to those particular

01:05:56

Romans or anything like that, but just because He intercedes for the elect doesn't mean that He didn't die for everybody else, too.

01:06:04

I mean, He died for the elect, obviously. I mean, no one would deny the fact that He died for the saved, but this doesn't negate the fact that He died for everybody.

01:06:13

But can you see how Romans 8, 32 through 34, can be read consistently as stating that the

01:06:24

Son was given in behalf of the elect of God, and that the Son then intercedes for the same people for whom

01:06:32

He died? Is that at least a possible interpretation of the text?

01:06:40

I'm not sure what, I mean, obviously I believe that it's saying that He delivered them up for us all, which would be a group of people, right?

01:06:47

For, and obviously that could be talking about just saved people, you know?

01:06:53

Okay. So obviously then He's not gonna, all that other stuff would apply to saved people after that.

01:06:59

I don't see how this would negate other passages in the Bible where it says He died for everybody.

01:07:04

This isn't saying, like, this is, He only makes inter - I mean, or that He only died for these certain people, just because those are the only people that He makes intercession for, meaning that you have to be saved for this intercession to be imputed unto you, or for this to happen.

01:07:21

So you don't see intercession as the actual basis of salvation?

01:07:27

This is something that comes later? Well, it depends if you're talking about spiritually or physically.

01:07:35

Because when you're dealing with the old man, new man in chapter 7, you have the fact that your soul is perfect, sinless, whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, but if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

01:07:49

So we still have an intercessor that's intercessing for our sins daily, dealing with the flesh, which is actually what

01:07:56

Romans chapter 8, verse 1 is talking about, and the fact that we're not walking after the flesh, but after the

01:08:02

Spirit. So there's no condemnation to those that walk after the Spirit.

01:08:08

And so if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Those are two different things that we're dealing with there.

01:08:15

Okay. All right. Well, we have closing opportunities now.

01:08:22

You can take up to five minutes, whatever statements you want to make, and wrapping up, and then

01:08:29

I'll do the same thing, and we'll finish up. Okay, let me set my stopwatch here.

01:08:34

Ah, you gotta stopwatch now. Yeah. So yeah.

01:08:42

So thank you for bringing me on, just to, you know, obviously show my side of the argument or what we believe on this issue.

01:08:51

But I do believe it is a very important issue to show that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, that it's not by repenting of your sins, that this passage isn't stating anything as far as the fact that it's only the elect that are getting saved, and that predestination doesn't apply to the fact that it's predestined to believe, but the fact that we're predestined to be formed in His image, who first trusted in Christ.

01:09:19

And so I do believe this is a very important subject. Obviously, when it comes to soul winning, when it comes to just all the rest of the

01:09:27

Bible and dealing with all the verses on the fact that He died for all men, He's the

01:09:32

Savior of all men, especially those that believe. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, who have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, that He tasted death for every man.

01:09:44

And to look at that in context with all the other passages in the Bible and understanding that Jesus did die for everybody.

01:09:54

But I do believe this goes into salvation, too, when it comes to what it takes to be saved, and especially with what you teach and other people teach as far as the fact that you've got to repent of your sins to be saved, or that true saving faith will produce works.

01:10:12

And so, obviously, turning from your sins, according to Jonah 3 .10, is God saw their works, that they turn from their evil way.

01:10:19

So the repent of your sins, which that phrase is never mentioned in the King James Bible, by the way, is a work.

01:10:26

And also, the Bible does not teach that a believer will do good works after they get saved.

01:10:33

And quite the contrary, in Romans chapter 7, where Paul says, the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

01:10:42

And the things I would, I do not. And the things I hate, that do I. But it is no longer

01:10:48

I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. And it talks about how with the mind, I serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.

01:10:57

And so, James chapter 2, dealing with the fact that our works perfect our faith, and that we become the friend of God as believers if we do the works, and the fact that that's not automatic.

01:11:12

And so, I do believe it's damnable heresy to add works on the both ends of salvation when you're looking at this.

01:11:20

So this is an important issue when it comes to the gospel and the clarity of the gospel, and that is by faith alone.

01:11:27

That is by grace through faith alone, and not by works of righteousness, which we have done. And so, this is a very important topic, and it does need to be clear as far as the fact that no works are involved.

01:11:43

And this isn't just in the Reformed theology. This is something that I've seen just a lot of unsaved people say that a

01:11:54

Christian is going to do good works, but it's a misunderstanding of the fact that we still have the flesh.

01:12:01

That all things are not new physically. So, all things are made new when you get saved spiritually, and once you get saved spiritually, whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his sin remains sin, and he cannot sin because he's born of God.

01:12:15

But our flesh still has sin, and that's a battle. It's a battle. And so, if we walk in the

01:12:24

Spirit, we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But the flesh lusts against the

01:12:29

Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. These are contrary, the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. We have to make a choice every single day as believers to walk in the

01:12:39

Spirit and to walk in that new man, but that doesn't mean that it's automatically going to happen.

01:12:48

And that's why throughout all the epistles, it keeps saying, as you receive him, so walk ye in him.

01:12:54

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. You know, as children of light, so walk ye as children of light.

01:13:01

And so, it's constantly talking about walking in the light, having fellowship with the light, but that's not automatic.

01:13:06

It's not something that every believer's going to do. I wish they all did, but I believe it's like the lepers, the ten lepers that got saved, and Jesus said,

01:13:15

Thy faith hath made thee whole, only one came back. And the sad part is that a lot of people get saved, but they don't come back.

01:13:24

But we also need to be thorough with the gospel. We need to explain eternal security, not one, two, three, repeat after me.

01:13:29

They need to understand that it's by Jesus Christ alone, and that you can't lose your salvation. So, that's what

01:13:35

I believe. Okay, thank you. I think that was five minutes.

01:13:42

It was, right on the nose. Thank you. Okay, so I'll do a quick five, and we'll let you go, and we'll wrap things up.

01:13:50

Just before I start my timer, I have a feeling, in light of the streaming issues, that it may take some time to get the recording up, because we're going to have to cut all that stuff out in the middle.

01:14:03

Sure. Oh, Rich says, actually, he took care of all that, and it should be up fairly quickly.

01:14:10

So, I'm not sure how he did that, but we'll get it up there. And so, I just want,

01:14:15

I assume there would be some editing that would be needed to take all the garbage stuff out. Okay, all right, fine, good, wonderful.

01:14:22

All right, my five minutes. Technology's great. Well, when we know how to use it, it is wonderful.

01:14:28

Okay, five minutes, here we go. Uh, first of all, I would simply leave to the audience the decision as to who engaged in exegesis of Romans chapter 8 and derived their interpretation of the text from the text itself.

01:14:43

I think it's very problematic when we use methodologies of exegesis and interpretation that we do not use to demonstrate the

01:14:50

Trinity, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, or anything else that we might agree upon. We use something different, reading texts backwards, going to Ephesians 1, which the

01:14:59

Romans would not have had access to, reading that text backwards, and then interpreting that and putting it into Romans chapter 8.

01:15:07

I think that is self -evidently indicative of traditions of men that have been inserted into a theological position.

01:15:17

We've moved from that particular text, which plainly teaches the consistency of Christ being given on behalf of God's elect,

01:15:24

His intercession for them, they are specific people, and the fact that this is not based upon foreseen faith, faith is the result of this action of God, it is not that which prompts the action of God.

01:15:36

These have all been read into the text. I think that's been fairly plainly shown already, so I won't go back over that.

01:15:43

I do want to correct the constant repetition of the idea that somehow we are talking about works salvation.

01:15:49

We are not. We just heard it said, and I think I got it typed up properly. We just heard it said, the

01:15:56

Bible never says Christians will do good works after they are saved, except that the Bible says exactly that in Ephesians 2 .10,

01:16:05

for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which

01:16:11

God before ordained in order that we should walk in them, in those good works.

01:16:17

This is the purpose of God for Christian believers. It is not some extra step. It is not some super spirituality.

01:16:24

It is the very purpose whereby God gave His Son and sends His Spirit to conform us to the image of Christ.

01:16:32

This is the very essence of the gospel. My actions do not add to the righteousness of Christ.

01:16:38

My actions do not add to the grace of God. But my actions cannot be the basis upon which the grace of God is actuated in the first place, which is what we are being told, is that God's grace wants to save, but it's dependent upon foreseeing what we are going to do.

01:16:53

No, this is not the biblical message. We are not saying that you join works to faith to gain justification, but the one who has been regenerated by the work of the

01:17:04

Spirit of God is an individual who not only will believe in Jesus Christ and continue to believe in Jesus Christ and persevere in that faith, but is a person who lives a life of repentance, and repentance is fundamental to the gospel.

01:17:21

Without repentance, you are not following Jesus, you are following a tradition of men. The first message of John the

01:17:28

Baptist was repent. Jesus comes from the wilderness, he says, repent. This is the essence of the message.

01:17:35

Repent and believe. If you skip that part, you don't have the rest of it. This is the message of the

01:17:41

Christian faith. So, only recognizing that this all comes from God, that God's the one that raises us to spiritual life, that God's the one that does all of these things, only then can you truly believe in sola fide, faith alone.

01:17:56

Because that faith, we are enabled to do. We are the fallen sons and daughters of Adam. Yes, the doctrine of original sin,

01:18:03

Romans chapter 5, taught there plainly, we are fallen sons and daughters of Adam, we are dead in our trespasses and sins.

01:18:10

God raises us up to life, gives us the gifts of faith and repentance, and we do these things and we continue to live in this way, not to add to what

01:18:19

Christ has done for us, but because this is the work of his spirit within us. This is the only way to hold together.

01:18:25

The plain teaching of sola fide, sola gratia, faith alone, grace alone, and the plain teaching of scripture that without holiness, no man will see

01:18:35

God, that we are to be conformed to his image, that we are to live lives of repentance. The only way to hold these things together is to recognize the centrality of the work of the sovereign

01:18:46

God and glorifying himself in the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, I simply wanted to focus on Romans 8.

01:18:54

We got into a lot of other things after that, but Romans chapter 8, verses 28 through 34, consistently applying meaningful rules of interpretation and exegesis, teaches us from beginning to end,

01:19:10

God gets the glory, God accomplishes these things, we are the gracious recipients of these things, and that's what we're called to as believers, is to glorify him for that very wonderful work.

01:19:23

I want to thank Pastor Robinson for joining us today. I'm sorry about the net issues at the end, but technology keeps advancing, or going backwards,

01:19:34

I'm not sure which. But we appreciate you joining with us, and maybe sometime we'll do

01:19:39

Ephesians chapter 1, because that sounds like maybe that might be a future discussion,

01:19:45

I don't know. We'll talk about it, but I appreciate your time. Thank you. All right. Are we done?

01:19:50

Are you done with me? Yeah, sure. Thank you very much. All right. Bye. Bye -bye. Okay, folks.

01:19:57

Well, I'd say that illustrated a lot of what we talked about in the first hour and 50 minutes or so.

01:20:09

And I'm not going to, it's late, and we got a little bit delayed there, so more comments on the future.

01:20:17

Something tells me, I keep looking over here something tells me there's going to be some videos that are going to pop up on this.

01:20:25

You want to grab the mic? Oh, yeah. You want to give your...

01:20:31

Yeah. Well, one of the things I think that we tried to illustrate is the problem of their constant poo -pooing and dissing the idea of exegesis, exegesis, like staying in the text.

01:20:46

I think you could see that there very, very clearly in terms of, well, the way that I'll get at Paul's clear statements here, this line, this chain, this intercession of Christ for the people of God and all of the basis of our hope in Jesus Christ of not being condemned, being attached to this perfect work for his people, his intercession, his being seated, his finished work.

01:21:08

The way I'll answer that clear statement is I'll jump over to this text and this proof text in this verse and over here, and we'll read this text backwards up here to get this to say what

01:21:16

I want it to say. And I think that for all of us, and I just want to say this with humility, this is very, very important. I want to say this humility.

01:21:22

When any of us can see in what we're saying, that level of tradition, we've got to start asking ourselves deep questions.

01:21:31

I've been there a number of times in my life. I've seen, no, wait a second. I'm not being consistent. Like I'm reading this into the text.

01:21:37

The text does not say that I'm getting that from somewhere else. Why am I taking this belief and shoving it into that text?

01:21:43

Because that's not how you're supposed to read this. And I'm not doing it in other places where I'm trying to be really faithful.

01:21:48

So why am I doing it here? So I just think we have to all be cautious and aware of our own traditions. And I think, well,

01:21:54

I did learn this from you. The person who says that they don't have any traditions is the person who's plagued with the most of them.

01:22:02

Or enslaved. Enslaved to the most of them. And I think you can see that very, very clearly. For example, it's too easy for me in terms of wanting to have a discussion and really get to the bottom of something and really say, what does it really say?

01:22:17

It's too easy for me just to take five or six strings of single verses.

01:22:24

Just no context, no background, no what's before, what's below, what was the whole reason

01:22:30

Paul was saying that? It's too easy for me to just kick that out and throw that in the middle of a discussion. What's more meaningful is to go to each of those passages and say, what does it really say?

01:22:40

And why is he saying that? It's almost like, I think maybe he picked up the potter's freedom and pulled out the chestnut verses that need to be unpacked in terms of when an

01:22:53

Arminian is looking at the atonement issue, what are the chestnut verses they're going to go to?

01:22:58

It's a list. And I would challenge those who are watching this, very respectfully to you, very graciously to you,

01:23:05

I would challenge you to pick up a copy of the potter's freedom and really go into some of that string of texts that was thrown out there at the very, very end and go through the potter's freedom and look at the texts, look at the arguments, look at the context, the author, audience and words and grammar, all that stuff.

01:23:22

Ask the question, are those texts really being used by Paul to suggest that the work of Jesus Christ was not perfect and will be complete, absolutely complete?

01:23:34

Because that's what is being suggested. And that's one of the things, I'll end on this, I don't want to monopolize this, I know you're probably tired.

01:23:41

What's the most important aspect of this for me in hearing this? It's that I'm hearing a tradition, a theology, a soteriology, a view of Jesus and the atonement and his work and intercession that says that the savior of sins is not a perfect savior.

01:24:01

He needs other things. Either there's something within me that has to help him along the way in terms of that atonement, or there was something about his atonement and his intercession, his being seated, that's not complete to actually bring a person to salvation.

01:24:19

Because if you say that Jesus died for the sins of somebody, perfectly accomplished this righteousness, perfect obedience, he died on their behalf and he rose again, and he is seated, right?

01:24:31

And he's applying that work. If you say that someone can still burn in hell forever, who had that work accomplished on their behalf, then there's something deficient.

01:24:41

Well, it almost sounded to me, what I was pushing there, was he was trying to say the atonement is universal, but the application, which is what the intercession involves, is based upon what we do.

01:24:54

In other words, the entire parallel of the high priest is broken. That's right. That's the point. Yes. Of course,

01:25:01

I don't think that that group of people is real big on that type of interpretation anyways and maintaining those things.

01:25:08

But that's what I was pushing and trying to ask the questions that I was there in verses 32 and 33 and 34, because you have beautiful harmony there.

01:25:19

Those for whom he's given are those for whom he intercedes. And that's the perfection of his work.

01:25:26

Once you say, no, no, no, he gave himself for all sorts of other folks, but that's where it all...

01:25:33

Well, and then in the end, Dr. White, what I think is clear, hopefully clear, is that there are two perspectives here about the atonement, the work of God, the grace of God.

01:25:42

And what's different, I think should be highlighted, is that what the other side is saying is that the difference is me.

01:25:50

The difference is something that I did. It's something that God learned about me. He looked through time and saw that I would believe.

01:25:58

He learned that about me. He made his decisions based upon what I would do. So what separates me from my neighbor, what separates me from an unsaved family member is something in me and something that I had or thought or knew or did that was different than them.

01:26:13

And I think that the constant statement of, it's all to God's glory so that we would not boast.

01:26:23

I think that when you start having a perspective that sounds like that, it starts to concern me about where there's boasting.

01:26:29

Well, and the result is what we just saw. I mean, there's one side that can walk through the text and let it say what it says.

01:26:39

There's another side has to go over there, go over there, go over there, read it backwards, upside down. Let's not worry about what the relationship of this verse to that verse is.

01:26:47

That's what you get. Well, and thank you for sitting through all that. Of course. Every once in a while, I sort of would make sure you're still with us there.

01:26:56

And Zach's out there. Thank you, Zach, for surviving all that. And thank you, Rich, for doing what you do.

01:27:05

That's right. Telling us all where to go and what to do. So with that,

01:27:12

I don't think we're going to be back until after Christmas, I would imagine.

01:27:18

But I think I've already announced this, December 27th,

01:27:24

Thursday, Radio Free Geneva, the new theme, the new theme song.

01:27:30

You have a new one? We have a new theme song. The Bunker has moved. Really? Look, Bruton Parker, come on.

01:27:36

There's nobody there anymore. We couldn't exactly get much in the way of good insight on what the other side's doing from Bruton Parker anymore.

01:27:44

So same music, same singer. So it's same driving.

01:27:51

Okay, good. Don't mess this up. No, no, we're not going to mess it up. I don't know. There are some people out there that are so dedicated to that music that we might have protests and stuff like that, firebombing, who knows what else, if we change that.

01:28:04

But there is a new location for the Bunker. So we're having to pack up and do some moving and stuff like that.

01:28:10

It's not to Tempe. And it's not to Tempe either. Thanks a lot for that. I really appreciate that.

01:28:16

But anyway, the 27th Radio Free Geneva, Leighton Flowers, Andy Stanley have to respond to major portions of that dialogue.

01:28:31

It's important. It's gospel important. So that'll probably be the next program. We'll be on the 27th.

01:28:37

So thank you for watching today. Thank you for being with me, Brother Jeff, and we'll see you next time. God bless.