November 26, 2024 Show with John-William Noble on “Tobias Riemenschneider: The Vindication of a Good Man of God”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 26th day of November, 2024, and I'm truly honored to have a very important guest on the program today.

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I hope that most of you were able to hear yesterday's program featuring my friends,

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Dr. Joe Boot, founder of the Ezra Institute, and Pastor Jacob Tanner of Christ Keystone Church in Middleburg, Pennsylvania.

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They did a program on the Antioch Declaration, and this is a declaration that is in some way connected to our conversation today.

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And the key individual that we will be addressing today, my dear friend, in fact, the dear friend of both myself and my guest today,

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John William Noble, Tobias Riemenschneider is one of the key framers of the

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Antioch Declaration, as well as the signatory. And today

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I have as my guest John William Noble, who is pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland, and we're going to be addressing

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Tobias Riemenschneider, the vindication of a good man of God.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time,

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Pastor John William Noble. Thanks for having me on. It's a great pleasure to be here, and certainly it's very important and timely to be speaking about such a subject.

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Amen. Well, before we go on to the main topic, please let our listeners know something about Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland.

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So, Grace Baptist Church Aberdeen started just under six years ago, so it is a relatively new church plant and it's based in the northeast of Scotland.

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So for people who are maybe not so acquainted with the spiritual climate in Scotland or Europe to have confessionally reformed, especially reformed

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Baptist churches is quite a rarity these days, sadly, and this was one of the key reasons why this church was planted.

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And by the grace of God, it is a church that has grown quite significantly, especially in terms of the

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Scottish context. We have, from initially meeting in a community center, have been able to acquire one building that we bought as our place of worship.

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And more recently, we have been able to buy one of many church buildings that the

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Church of Scotland, the National Church, which once was standing on such biblical grounds but has apostatized.

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In terms of them selling them off, we've been able to buy one, and so we've been thankful for that. And in conjunction with that, we are also in the process of looking to establish a

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Christian school in the city. This is the second Christian school I've been involved in beginning, so that's quite a significant and important work, given the state of state education and the need for such a thing in our country.

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Well, if anybody wants more information about Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland, go to graceaberdeen .org,

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graceaberdeen .org, Aberdeen is spelled A -B -E -R -D -E -E -N.

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Well, as we have a tradition of doing here on this program, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have a guest—that guest give a summary of his or her salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised and how they came to hear and embrace the glorious gospel.

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And we would love to hear a summary of your story. Yeah, so it's interesting when

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I think about my testimony, because for a period when I was growing up,

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I used to think that my testimony is one of the more boring ones. Being raised in a

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Christian home, when I had heard other testimonies of people who'd come from quite vile and volatile backgrounds.

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But as I've grown and matured in my understanding of Christian doctrine, and especially in areas like Christian education and parenting, it's actually something that I increasingly give thanks to God for and praise

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God that I can give testimony to being raised in a Christian home where the Bible was open and central in the attitude and the mindset, the posture of my parents.

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So they were both Christians who raised my brother and I. And so I grew up always with an understanding that there is a

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God and that the worldview in which the household I was being raised in was centered upon this.

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So it's probably difficult for me to give a definitive point in which

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I remember clearly coming to saving faith, but I do have in my memory a particular sermon that I heard when

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I was maybe around about the age of 11 or 12, where the preacher in the

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Baptist church in the town I was growing up in, a town called Peterhead, which is north of Aberdeen, was preaching about the importance of repentance and the need to be saved by the blood of Christ.

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And I do remember praying about this, praying with a conviction of sin and praying that Christ would be my

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Lord and Savior. And going forward from there, in my teenage years, there were still various struggles that I had in terms of considering what living as a disciple of Christ looked like.

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But I do remember making quite clear stands for my following of Christ.

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In relation to this, I was also beginning to study systematic theology in more depth. One interesting part of my testimony is that, as well as my father obviously raising me as my father, he was also my teacher.

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So he taught me systematic theology. Later when I became a schoolteacher for a period of time, he was then my boss because he was the head teacher of the school that I was working in.

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And then more recently, he has become a member, along with my mother, in the church I'm pastoring.

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So I'm now their pastor. So I've got a lot of relationships with my parents. But yes,

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I'm very blessed in the way the Lord and his providence has given me a family that I've loved and cared for and taught me the truth of God's word.

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And that's certainly been a grounds for me to then move in a direction where I had quite a clear sense of the

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Lord's calling me into pastoral ministry. But as I mentioned earlier with regards to the church plant, which was when

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I was in my early thirties, there was no confessionally reformed Baptist church, and I had reformed in Baptist convictions by the time

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I was kind of maybe early adulthood. So it was a challenge.

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I mean, through my twenties, it was difficult to reconcile the spiritual climate of the nation in which

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I was in because I'd studied some church history and got an idea of how significant the

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Christian heritage of our nation was. And to see, for example, the state church and even other denominations moving in such a blatantly liberal direction was,

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I mean, it was something that took me in some ways years to get my head around because I went in with maybe some positive expectations.

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But at the same time, the Lord used those years in a formative way to shape and prepare me for a church planting ministry.

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And so this was what brought me more recently to beginning this church plant. I had been in pastoral ministry in Edinburgh, and then

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I served in a reformed Baptist church there, and they then sent me to begin the church in Aberdeen.

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And then more recently, as well as pastoring this church, I've been involved in trying to advance the cause of Christian education.

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I've also been involved in setting up a reformed Baptist publishing house called Parousia. We released an edition of the

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Baptist Confession, which was quite successful amongst reformed Baptists around the world, particularly in America.

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And I've written a couple of books since then. So that's just a brief testimony of the way in which the

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Lord has saved me and then how I've grown in my spiritual walk during that time. And how did you come to first hear the doctrines of sovereign grace, which you said you came to believe in early adulthood?

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And was this shared by your parents at that time, or was that something that they would later come to embrace?

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Yeah, I mean, I suppose given the fact that, I mean, my father was teaching me systematic theology and it was actually in a classroom setting that I was studying in my teenage years.

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That was when I was first introduced to, for example, Calvinistic doctrine and to consider the subjects of the doctrines of grace and getting a systematic theology of an understanding of God and his attributes, and then the totally depraved nature of man and his sin, and then understanding the gospel within that framework, and then the nature of the church and discipleship.

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That was the grounds for me then going on to study theology at the University of Aberdeen. So I would say it was at that time that I had that grounding.

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But interestingly enough, even though I've mentioned more recently that I was involved in releasing an edition of the

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Confession, it wasn't until well through my 20s that I was properly introduced to the London Baptist Confession of Faith.

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Like most Scottish believers growing up, if you study church history and reformed doctrine, you're quickly introduced to the

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Westminster Confession, and I'd studied quite a bit about Presbyterian history, especially the likes of John Knox and then into the

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Covenanters and so on. But the Reformed Baptist history was something that was a bit of a gaping hole at that point.

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So it was interesting that when I started to read the London Baptist Confession of Faith, I didn't read that and that shaped my convictions.

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It was actually good for me to read this Confession of Faith, which was aligning a lot with many of the convictions

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I had already come to by that point in my 20s. So yeah, I would say my parents, the thing that was lacking in terms of their situation was a biblically grounded church, because my grandfather, my mother's father, he had been a

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Church of Scotland minister, and even back in the 60s, he was warning of the state and direction that the denomination was moving in.

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And in recent years, it became more and more of a challenge for my parents, as has been the case for so many professing

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Christians in the UK, realistically, regarding trying to be grounded in a biblical church where the

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Word of God is preached. So I think they have been thankful for this church being planted in this part of Scotland.

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Amen. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address, if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, it is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. And Tobias Riemenschneider, a dear friend of both of ours, first tell our listeners, for those who do not yet know much or anything about Tobias Riemenschneider, who he is, and just to let our listeners know, later on, after this program is over, you can hear

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Tobias' testimony on my program, I believe among the four times that he has been on the program already, the

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March 11th program of 2024, which would have been when he gave his salvation testimony.

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But tell us about this dear man of God and how you came to become an acquaintance and then a very close friend.

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Yes, so even answering this question and going through this is actually a lot more important than in any other situation

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I can think of, because what I have seen being written about and communicated regarding Tobias has been quite shocking.

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And obviously, I'll get more into that when we deal with the situation. But I think it's good to bear in mind that I'm just speaking from the perspective of someone who a few years ago,

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I didn't know who Tobias was, and then I got to know him. And these are the impressions that I've had and the relationship that I've built and what

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I've seen of him as a man of God, as a man of integrity, and in his ministry. And I'm just stressing that point because it's important to consider, given the nature of the situation that Tobias has been in and things that have been said about him.

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So just beginning then, it was actually during probably the tail end of the

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COVID lockdown situation in terms of probably Western Europe.

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Tobias' church, ERB Frankfurt, and our church, Grace Baptist Church Aberdeen, were two of not very many, sadly, that were very outspoken in terms of challenging and exhorting the church family that we were responsible for, even in terms of challenging and calling other church leaders to repent, and certainly challenging government and media propaganda and narratives.

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All of these things we were both very much involved in. And Tobias actually approached me,

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I'm trying to think if it would have been maybe just over two, two and a half years ago or something along those lines, yeah, regarding the

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Frankfurt declaration that he was beginning to put together, because he had heard me preach at a conference via an online link that was sent to him speaking on the subject of the vaccine mandates that were being threatened in the

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United Kingdom. So he thought that I would be somebody who could give some input to that. And I did.

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I gave some feedback regarding the declaration and some suggestions on that.

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So that was the beginning of us starting to get to know one another. So there was obviously some grounds already in my mind that this was a man who had convictions.

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So just to give a little bit more of a context regarding Tobias and his ministry, in terms of this

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COVID situation, he literally had a federal state, Baden -Württemberg, were literally warning people against him because of his outspoken stance on COVID.

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And this gives you an idea, first of all, about the way in which people have seen him in his ministry and also just the nature of the country in which he is ministering, because it is a volatile and oppressive country with regards to much of Christian service.

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Even home education is outlawed. So there are many challenges for Tobias in seeking to shepherd.

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And he has certainly, through not just the COVID situation, but other ministry commitments, faced a lot of attacks and verbal abuse from those who would deem him to be far -right or ultra -conservative, these sorts of things.

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So this is just to give a flavor. Because he's a man of convictions, which I've seen consistently from the point of meeting him until now, this has led to quite a lot of opposition that he's faced in his ministry.

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So with his ministry itself, I actually was then invited to preach at ERB Frankfurt just at the beginning, the end of 2022, beginning of 2023.

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And this gave me a bit more of an insight into life in the church there.

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So they're also a Reformed Baptist church. They've now grown to be the biggest

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Reformed Baptist church in Germany. They've got nearly 200 people in attendance on the Lord's Day. And people come literally from all over Germany because they've seen some of the stances and the biblical convictions upon which they stand.

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And a bit similar to the situation in Scotland, to know there is a biblical church that is seeking to actually stand on these convictions and apply them in areas where it is difficult, that's quite a rarity.

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And ERB Frankfurt and Pastor Tobias very much fits within that bracket. Another thing that I think is really important to stress, and my wife and I and our three children at that point, we were all really blessed by the hospitality we received when we visited.

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They're a very loving and caring church. So not only is there a church with clear doctrinal foundations, they're also a church where it's practiced in their love and investment in each other's lives.

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I remember once hearing a pastor exhort the people in a,

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I think it might have been a conference setting, saying that you can really begin to tell about a man's ministry, not so much in terms of if he can hit a homerun sermon in a conference, but actually what is his ministry like in his local church.

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So I can give testimony to this, not just from a one -off visit, but further visits and communication

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I and others in the church have had, and we've been richly blessed to build such a close fellowship and partnership, not just with Pastor Tobias and his fellow elder

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Pastor Peter, but even with members of the congregation there. They're also a patriarchal church, so they've got a very clear understanding of God's calling and design for men and women.

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This is something that needs to be stressed in a time where we are seeing the increasing effeminizing of churches and church leaders.

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The church in Frankfurt is very much clear in terms of these distinctions, and the believers, the families within that church are richly blessed as a result of that.

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They're also an evangelistic church. Now by evangelism, what do we mean by that?

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We mean that they go out to the city center, they go out to the public square and they preach the gospel.

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So to give examples of what Tobias has faced and what he's done as a man of God, as a man of integrity, he has gone out to preach the gospel in times of pride parades and in the face of opposition from very leftist ideological thinkers where he's been spat at and verbally abused.

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He has told me that he feels the fear of potentially being attacked or arrested because the police are certainly not favorable towards what

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Pastor Tobias and the members of ERB Frankfurt are doing, and yet they still do it because we are commanded to go forth and proclaim the gospel.

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They're also engaged in the abortion ministry to try to address and tackle the growing rate of this great evil within the

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Western world. This is something that again has been a great encouragement and example for our church in Aberdeen to see the willingness and the readiness to do this.

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If I had to be realistic, ERB Frankfurt has probably been the biggest blessing in terms of another church anywhere that I can think of to our church in Grace, Aberdeen.

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We've certainly got a lot of like -minded brethren and outlook towards the application of doctrine

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The friendship that I've built with Pastor Tobias has been grounded on seeing time and time and time again, both

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Pastor Tobias and Pastor Peter, that they have been men of convictions and they've stood on them in the face of such significant difficulty.

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I want to stress this with crystal clear clarity in a time when even these very things about Pastor Tobias and his integrity and even in terms of his manliness, his masculinity, all of these things have been put into question and ridiculed, and it is the complete opposite of the picture that I have clearly seen and witnessed over the past two plus years.

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Praise God. Well, we are going to be coming back after a brief commercial break, and we're going to explain the sad reason why we are even here today discussing things that we believe vindicate the reputation of this dear brother,

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Pastor Tobias Riemenschneider. It's a tragedy that we had to even do this, but we will be explaining that right after we return from this first commercial break.

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And as I said earlier, if you want to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with my guest today,

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Pastor John William Noble of Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland. We are discussing

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Pastor Tobias Riemenschneider, the vindication of a good man of God.

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And so tell us, Pastor Noble, what exactly brought us to the point where you and I find it necessary to vindicate this man that beforehand had a stellar reputation in the body of Christ?

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Okay, so this is certainly a very complex issue. And I would also just reiterate what you said earlier,

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Chris. Yesterday's episode with Dr. Boot and Pastor Jacob was certainly immensely helpful to give quite a significant context to the underlying situation, which is actually what first was

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Tobias' point and reason for alerting me to, not simply this underlying issue, but a pressing matter he had with Joel Webben.

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So let me just begin there. So it was many, I think it might've been months ago now that Pastor Tobias had gotten in contact with me regarding an issue, a growing issue that had emerged between he and Pastor Joel Webben.

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And it was in relation to a former member of ERB Frankfurt.

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So this is actually incidentally somebody that I met the first time that I visited Frankfurt just before he moved to America.

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And he moved to America to then become a member at Pastor Joel's church.

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So the issue was regarding a meme that this former member of ERB Frankfurt had sent to Pastor Tobias and somebody else, and it had led to correspondence between Pastor Tobias, Pastor Joel, and two other brothers from Frankfurt and this former member.

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Now, before getting into that, it's important just to briefly summarize what

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Dr. Boot and Pastor Jacob spent a significant amount of time unpacking in much more detail yesterday, which is the underlying issue, because everything that I'm going to try to communicate will help to enable people to understand what has been driving

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Pastor Tobias' actions in this situation. So from the beginning, his focus in communicating with me was with regards to addressing the underlying issue.

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And he spoke with me regarding having already communicated with some other brothers about trying to begin to tackle what has effectively become neo -Nazism, white nationalism, that has risen up amongst the kind of far right, if you like, of conservative

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Christianity. And this is something that needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed swiftly.

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So not to spend too much time unpacking what was already said in yesterday's call, but what we've seen in recent times is people in the

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Western world, the kind of white ethnic race, as it's been defined by the liberal woke left, has been blaming the white people for every wrongdoing in recent times.

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And we've got to a point where some within the parts of America and other parts of Western Europe have pushed back and almost pushed back too much against us.

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And we've seen an uprising of kinism, so an argument that tribal and ethnic boundaries should be strictly adhered to.

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And this has led to some quite shocking tweets being written to very credible, upstanding pastors of various ethnicities, where I've literally read tweets where pastors are being told to go back to Africa and you don't belong here, because it is the argument that there needs to be very clear and definitive ethnic divides based on our ethnicity, or they would say race.

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But as was said yesterday, we are of one race, the human race. And this is what has also led to an outlook towards not only the

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Jews, but also towards what Hitler's Nazi Germany did in the 1930s, arguing that the social reforms that Nazi Germany put into place for the country was good for the nation, and the way that they tackled other groups was deemed necessary, being described as, for example, necessary acts of war and so on and so forth.

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And this obviously has very explicit white nationalist applications. And in the most extreme examples that have been released by professing

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Christians within especially the world of Twitter or what's now called X, there is literally tweets where people are writing that Hitler was an upstanding

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Christian and he was doing the Lord's work, this kind of thing. So that's just to give a brief idea of the underlying issue.

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And when it comes specifically to the dispute between Tobias and Joel, this was because this former member of Pastor Tobias had sent a tweet, a meme rather, which was basically to attack the very concept of the

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Holocaust. And it was more vulgar than that in terms of its subject matter. And Pastor Tobias had been seeking to address this issue with this brother already prior to a

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Zoom call taking place, but it got to a point where Pastor Joel had agreed to join a call with Pastor Tobias and Pastor Peter to discuss this matter.

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Now, I'll make reference to this now, but we'll maybe unpack it more a bit later. I've been able to listen to this

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Zoom call, but it wasn't accessible initially. And it certainly has been the source of much contention, but there was a buildup to that Zoom call, which needs to be made clear, which is that for many months, even before this member had gone to America, where this member had been being discipled, shepherded, cared for by Pastor Tobias and Pastor Peter.

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And I was even in communication with a member of ERB Frankfurt today, who was telling me that this former member had been blessed by Pastor Tobias' ministry and appreciated the clear biblical stance he had taken on issues like the

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COVID situation. And he was very thankful for Pastor Tobias' ministry input.

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But it does appear that, especially once he moved to America, that he was beginning to share more concerning material with regards to the subject of the

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Jews, and especially with regards to denying the Holocaust. And this was what led to Tobias having some further communication and expressing a great concern about this underlying evil, which was surfacing even with this former member.

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And Pastor Tobias was very clear when he spoke with me that he was very keen and willing to address this underlying issue.

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So I believe that one of the first communications that took place about this matter publicly was actually on an

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Iron Sharpens Iron episode, where Pastor Tobias was addressing the underlying issue, but he wasn't going into specific details about this

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Zoom call with Pastor Joel and this former member. Now, it's important to stress what

40:39

Pastor Tobias did and didn't say at this time, because what then followed, and this is where we begin to lead to the present situation, it seems as though Pastor Joel was quite rattled by the fact that Tobias had started to speak publicly about the underlying issue.

41:02

But Joel decided to frame this narrative in a very deliberate way.

41:09

So just to give a few quotes of what Joel did publicly on one of his podcast episodes, he accused

41:17

Tobias of having lost his mind and said that he needs to be redeemed of his boomer brain, saying that he had a bad case of it.

41:29

And he was saying that Pastor Tobias had been pastorally abusive, and that the reason for this is because Tobias was supposedly trying to force

41:44

Pastor Joel to excommunicate this former member who is now at Joel's church.

41:50

And he went on to say that Tobias won't be satisfied until this member is excommunicated along with his wife and children.

42:00

And Joel said that this was all over one meme. So this was what

42:06

Joel had said. This was how he framed this narrative of the private

42:12

Zoom call that had happened between these pastors and this former member. And this was what prompted

42:19

Tobias to then speak with me along with some others seeking pastoral counsel, wisdom regarding how he should respond to this.

42:30

So it makes perfect sense that in such a situation where Tobias had been very clearly referenced and ridiculed in Joel's podcast episode, that Tobias would seek counsel and prayerfully and wisely try to approach how to respond to this.

42:49

And so the decision that he made, having sought much counsel, was to release a response video to what

42:57

Pastor Joel had said, addressing these accusations, and also looking to further target the underlying issue with regards to this neo -Nazism, white nationalism, which is very much something that needs to be addressed.

43:13

So at this point, he then was approached and spoke with a potential ministry platform to release the video, which was a ministry called

43:28

Eschatology Matters. And so I was actually part of a

43:34

Zoom call, which included two of the brothers from Eschatology Matters and some other godly and quite reputable men who've been involved in this situation.

43:43

Some of which were heavily involved in putting together the Antioch Declaration. And it was clear, including the people from Eschatology Matters, that the focus was ultimately about, yes, addressing what

44:00

Pastor Joel had said about Tobias, but the main drive was to start addressing the underlying issues.

44:07

So that again needs to be stressed, what Tobias' focus was on. So he released the video and it was platformed by Eschatology Matters.

44:20

And in the first, I think maybe around about 24 to 36 hours, it had reached almost 15 ,000 views.

44:29

There were many positive comments, some of which were with regards to the

44:35

Zoom call that was being referenced. But we need to be realistic. Most, just about everybody would have had no real reference to the issue between the two pastors.

44:45

What many people were happy to hear Tobias also addressing was these underlying issues.

44:53

But I think it was on the Wednesday. So I think this video was released on the Monday at the end of October. And then it was on the

44:59

Wednesday that the situation changed somewhat because we found that the video had been removed and we were obviously approaching the people at Eschatology Matters to try to find out, well, why, what's happened here?

45:17

And they said that, oh, they've received the

45:24

Zoom call because nobody had known that this even existed as a recording within the people that Tobias had spoken to.

45:33

So they'd received the Zoom call from Joe. Now, at this point, what would have made perfect sense to try to swiftly resolve this issue between two pastors, between brothers, and how

45:48

Eschatology Matters could have aided the situation would have been for Eschatology Matters, or surely

45:55

Pastor Joel, to at least give this Zoom recording to Pastor Tobias, which is the

46:02

Zoom recording of that meeting that Tobias and Pastor Peter and another brother had with Joel and Joel's member, the former member of ERB Frankfurt.

46:12

But Joel at no point has given that Zoom call to Tobias, but he did give it to Eschatology Matters.

46:21

And so Eschatology Matters then pulled the video and they didn't provide the recording to Tobias.

46:29

Now, I just want to deal, this is information that I'm sure nobody would be aware of, but it's just to help people to understand what

46:40

Eschatology Matters' involvement in this situation has really been like, because they have been publicly recognized as taking the moral high ground and that they've acted with integrity.

46:52

But let me just give you one thing that was written by the main person who was behind the

47:00

Eschatology Matters video release, and then pulling it out. He said of Joel, when the

47:07

Tobias video had first been released, he said, short of sincere repentance, I'll never work with Joel again and I will delete his content from our channel.

47:16

Joel, he'll never work with Joel again? Yes, he said that on the Monday, whilst the

47:22

Tobias video was publicized by Eschatology Matters. Then on the

47:29

Wednesday, the video was pulled. Now, being fair to these two men in Eschatology Matters, they had by, at this point, listened to the

47:38

Zoom call and they'd heard things of concern. And then they released a vague statement and then they released another one, which was a bit more explicit, trying to detach themselves from the situation and hoping people would work it out, namely

47:55

Tobias and Joel, presumably. But then two days later, Eschatology Matters were commenting on a feed on X, where they were then writing,

48:06

Joel is 100 % telling the truth. Now, one thing

48:11

I need to give, a very important commentary on this. Let's suppose there were many, many, many discrepancies, even things that Tobias had said regarding the

48:21

Zoom call that were not true. One thing still remains that Eschatology Matters were clear about from the beginning, and that was to target the underlying issues of kinism, neo -Nazism, the white nationalism issue.

48:37

And so those issues still exist, regardless of the who said what between Tobias and Joel.

48:45

And so the flip -flop that we've seen from Eschatology Matters in the space of half a week, and I should say that it's not everybody in Eschatology Matters, they were divided over this issue.

48:55

Oh, yeah, Pastor Jacob Tanner, who was one of my guests yesterday. He was, I mean, he's been involved in this, and he has said that he was greatly concerned by the way

49:06

Eschatology Matters handled this issue. And so - And keep in mind, folks, Jacob Tanner has a podcast with Eschatology Matters.

49:15

Yes, and he said to me personally that he does not agree with how

49:21

Eschatology Matters have handled this. And what happened at this point?

49:27

At this point, once Eschatology Matters have started to release these kind of, if you like, showing integrity tweets, they are now being deemed the jury in the situation.

49:43

So because Eschatology Matters have made this definitive statement with regards to the

49:49

Zoom call, that is evidence enough to, and this has been the prevailing narrative to this point, to vindicate and also to victimize

49:58

Joel in all of this, and to then be the grounds to accuse

50:04

Tobias of being a liar and a slanderer. Now, I'm going to kind of go on to how this situation has unfolded, but Tobias had requested of Joel the

50:20

Zoom call, and Joel provided a 20 -second, 26 -second clip.

50:29

So Tobias confirmed the length of time. Now, just in a tweet that Joel, who tweeted,

50:37

I think it was either yesterday or this morning, I'm dealing with British time, he wrote in this tweet in the last 24 hours, that said,

50:46

Tobias still ended up receiving the clips promptly and the full recording within a few days.

50:52

Now, a couple of things to say about this, the receiving the clips promptly, he received a 26 -second clip, and he did receive the full recording, but he did not receive it from Joel or anyone connected with his ministry,

51:10

Right Response Ministries. Now, this is where we then take it to how the situation developed.

51:18

And at this point, I want to just highlight what Tobias started to face in even more a grotesque manner.

51:26

The number of memes, slanderous remarks, and wicked comments that were being now made about Tobias, including describing him as a leftist, leftist ideological thinker, woke, these sorts of things, and also things with regards to his love of the

51:51

Jews and other related things that, some of which would be quite shocking to state.

51:56

This became the prevailing narrative and behavior that was rampaging through the

52:04

Twitter mob and much of the internet. And by the grace of God, there was somebody who was part of a private group that Joel has been speaking to and with, who provided someone else, a brother called

52:24

Eli McGowan, with the private Zoom link. So this did not come from Joel, and it didn't come from any of his followers, just to state again.

52:33

And in fact, one of Joel's biggest followers, A .D. Robles, said in one of his many anti -Tobias podcasts in recent weeks, he literally said these words, we're not giving you the

52:46

Zoom call, Tobias, because we don't trust you. Now, again, we've got to think in terms of how we seek to reconcile and resolve things biblically.

52:58

If we're dealing with the accusations that Tobias has lied and he's been a slanderer and all of these things, provide him with the

53:04

Zoom call and reconcile the issues. In fact, we're gonna have to pick up right where you left off when we return from our commercial break.

53:13

Please be patient with us, folks. This is the midway break. It's a bit longer than the other breaks. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:23

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01:06:19

Before I return to my guest today, John William Noble, pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland, as we continue our program, vindicating the reputation of our dear friend,

01:06:34

Pastor Tobias Riemenschneider of the Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany.

01:06:40

Before we return to that conversation, I just have some important announcements. Folks, if you really love

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01:10:34

I want to remind you about a conference that I am hosting alongside

01:10:41

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Pastor and Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, pastor of the

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He's the keynote speaker and he will be joined by my friend, Joe Jakowitz and my friend,

01:11:35

Austin Huggins, both on staff with First Love Ministries for this pastor's conference.

01:11:40

That's the First Love Pastors Conference on the theme, The Minister as Shepherd. It's going to be held

01:11:47

Thursday, Friday and Saturday, January 16th, 17th and 18th.

01:11:52

If you would like to register for this free event for pastors, go to firstloveministries .org,

01:11:59

firstloveministries .org and click on events. And we would love to hear from you and your questions today for our guest as we discuss the vindication of our mutual friend,

01:12:16

Pastor Tobias Riemenschneider. Our guest is John William Noble, pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland.

01:12:25

And our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:12:31

Before the break, Pastor John William, you were discussing this secretly recorded

01:12:40

Zoom meeting that Pastor Tobias was being prevented of seeing, he was being prevented of possessing it.

01:12:56

And not only that, at least one of the folks involved in the ministry over there in Texas that secretly recorded the

01:13:10

Zoom meeting, Tobias was actually being on YouTube, taunted by it and mocked and laughed at that he did not have possession of this secretly recorded

01:13:24

Zoom meeting. But as God's grace would have it, he put it in the right hands of someone that eventually had it winding up in Pastor Tobias' hands and your hands.

01:13:38

So if you could pick up where you left off there. Yeah, so there's two main things that are still really important to address.

01:13:48

First of all, the issue surrounding the Zoom call and then I would like to give some very clear commentary on the

01:13:57

Zoom call itself. So at the point when Pastor Tobias received the

01:14:05

Zoom call finally, this was already, just to be clear, in the hands of many of Joel's friends and it was already then and it has even more so since then been used for the purposes of mockery, memes, trying to ridicule and humiliate

01:14:25

Pastor Tobias and others. And now even more recently, we're seeing even some recognized and prominent pastors taking clips from the

01:14:34

Zoom call to make funny remarks and anecdotes. Now again, considering the serious nature of the subject matter and all that has happened as a result of this

01:14:46

Zoom call, where can we possibly find the biblical grounds for this level of mockery and what has been outright wickedness in what has now become a bid to try to humiliate and discredit

01:15:02

Pastor Tobias' ministry? One of the things that really has been quite staggering is that everyone on what seems like now

01:15:11

Pastor Joel's side have been very forceful in framing this narrative to make it out as if everybody, including the likes of James White, Douglas, and they're all grouping together to do things like the

01:15:23

Antioch Declaration to try to bring down Joel's ministry. Now, being very realistic from the perspective of especially some of these, what people like Joel's followers are calling boomers, have they got nothing better to do than focus their energy and attention to try to bring down someone's ministry, which is clearly a laughable way of trying to frame the situation.

01:15:50

And given the fact that there hasn't been any attempt to bring about reconciliation, but just mockery, ridicule, slander, this is something that we need to have in our minds.

01:16:01

Now, when Tobias received the Zoom call, just getting back to this, it was from,

01:16:07

I mentioned just before the break, a brother called Eli McGowan. And I just want to say as a side point, he has also faced some of the most degrading and wicked comments, memes, videos about him that I've seen from either

01:16:25

Christians or non -Christians. And I include the most obscene liberal left type behavior that I have encountered.

01:16:33

I include that when I say this about what has been written about and done towards Eli.

01:16:40

He's been described as a snake, as slanderous, and all of these things, simply because he was trying to support, not just Tobias specifically, but just to support this situation being handled in a biblical manner.

01:16:53

So that's just as a side, and it helps to give even more of a sense of the character of many of the people behind these actions, especially on Twitter X.

01:17:04

Tobias, once he listened to the Zoom call, he did actually release a statement. Now, James White actually posted that statement on his

01:17:13

X feed because Tobias doesn't have X. So some people seem to have forgotten this, to say as if, well,

01:17:19

Tobias has waited weeks and he said nothing. No, he did say something. So that was shared, just get the date confirmed.

01:17:26

It was on the 2nd of November that was shared. Now, I won't read through it because I am conscious of the time, but Tobias does acknowledge the situation and the eschatology matters had removed the video.

01:17:39

And even he does actually address one thing in the Zoom call that he had got wrong regarding a claim that this former member of his church had agreed with Corey Mailer, who has been one of the most extreme versions of this white nationalist thinking via the

01:17:59

Stone Choir podcast. Tobias had mistakenly said that this former member had claimed that the children of mixed ethnicities are like feces, but this former member hadn't agreed with that.

01:18:12

So it's just to make this clear, Tobias was clear regarding an issue that he had got wrong and he repented of that in the post.

01:18:21

Again, we're dealing with a man of integrity who listened to this and listened very carefully and he sought the counsel of others who also then listened to this

01:18:28

Zoom call. And another thing that was being called for at this point was a third party kind of Christian court arbitration, which would be to assess the evidence and to make biblically grounded judgments on this.

01:18:49

Now, this was Tobias communicating publicly that he, quote, in this post,

01:18:56

I am ready to submit myself to the findings and outcomes of such a Christian court. Now, these were not the words or the actions of a man who had something to hide.

01:19:07

He desperately wanted to hear this Zoom call. He was very keen to ensure that if there was anything that he had said that was either mistaken or could be deemed to be lying or anything of that nature, he wanted to be clear on this.

01:19:22

And even to the point where he was saying he will submit himself to the findings of anyone who would be able to form such a

01:19:30

Christian court. Now, the response of this by many was to ridicule such a suggestion.

01:19:39

And some Presbyterians had said, well, this is not something that Baptists believe in.

01:19:44

And even Joel himself said that this is not what Baptists believe in. And I, along with others, have highlighted, well, chapter 26, paragraph 15 of the

01:19:53

London Baptist Convention of Faith says otherwise. So yeah, you can look that up to be clear on this.

01:19:59

Right, and Reformed Baptists are very staunch believers in even though we don't believe in a denominational hierarchy where there is any authority other than God himself and his word above the elders of a local congregation, there is to be cooperation amongst like -minded congregation.

01:20:19

Yes, yes, absolutely. And it's been interesting through this process,

01:20:26

Joel on a number of occasions has said one thing and then he's said something quite different.

01:20:34

So just to give one of the most obvious examples right from the beginning, initially when the

01:20:41

Eschatology Matters release of Tobias's video had been brought out, people were actually asking

01:20:48

Joel for a response. And on the 28th of October, he tweeted in response to Tobias's video.

01:20:56

This is the quote, I've said my piece, moving on. Bolsheviks are on the front porch.

01:21:02

No more time for struggle sessions about a privately shared meme. And obviously since then, he and all of his followers have said and written much about this.

01:21:12

And even recently, I think it's been this week, he has also started to, instead of ridiculing the arbitration option, he's now seemingly warming to the idea.

01:21:22

So there's a constant shifting of the narrative based on probably communications he's having with various people.

01:21:30

And again, that has been quite problematic because up until this week, with the exception of Tobias's public statement response, what

01:21:40

I've witnessed by countless people, including many commentators observing the situation has been a one -sided verbal attack against Tobias, his integrity, accusing him of lies and slander.

01:21:55

So I think it would be important for me to spend a bit of time just dealing with the

01:22:01

Zoom call itself, because I have listened to this. I obviously know him as well and I've spoken with him.

01:22:08

Yes, definitely. Yes. So one thing to say, because I'm only going to cover certain points and I'm sure people may have follow -up questions.

01:22:21

At this point, I want to say that what I'm doing is just the beginning of this being addressed because Pastor Tobias himself has now finished a response video.

01:22:35

And the two of us have actually set up a new platform, a channel called

01:22:41

Reformation Brotherhood, where this video is going to be released, we're hoping even as early as tomorrow, assuming there's no technology issues.

01:22:49

And Tobias has very well and thoroughly put together a chronological argument and response to the situation.

01:22:59

I think it's very well put together and this is going to really further help to clarify what has been a narrative of many, unfortunately, falsehoods.

01:23:10

So that's something to have in mind here. Just to explain regarding anyone who has listened to the

01:23:19

Zoom call, because this has been in the public domain now, so I'm aware that quite a number of people have heard it, and that some people with good and right intentions have said that they've heard it and they can see discrepancies or they can even find places where Tobias has lied or slandered.

01:23:40

Now, one thing I want to say about how we listen to something, if I can give an example of this very point.

01:23:53

Take, for example, when I'm speaking with Presbyterians about the issue of baptism, we'll maybe refer to texts like passages from Galatians 3, and we could both be reading the same passage and both, me as a

01:24:08

Baptist and the other person as a Presbyterian saying, exactly, see, it says it in the text, this is my point.

01:24:15

And we could both be referring to the point of our argument. Now, the reason

01:24:21

I'm mentioning this is over one of the key points of contention with regards to what

01:24:26

Tobias had said, but in terms of what he actually meant in what he said.

01:24:33

And that is with regards to the subject of church discipline and excommunication of this former member.

01:24:41

Just to remind the listeners about what Joel had said in his podcast leading to Tobias' response.

01:24:50

I want to read this again. I'm sorry for the repetition, but I think it's important. So Joel had said that Tobias had lost his mind, needing to be redeemed of this boomer brain, even saying that this was pastorally abusive because Tobias was trying to force

01:25:06

Joel to excommunicate this member and that Tobias wouldn't be satisfied until he is excommunicated along with his family.

01:25:15

Now, that's Joel's interpretation of what was said. Now, it's very clear, anyone who listens to the

01:25:22

Zoom call, Tobias does speak repeatedly about this subject of excommunication, but at no point in the video is he saying to Joel that he needs to excommunicate this member.

01:25:41

So when it comes to the subject of what Tobias is saying, he is talking about this brother in question.

01:25:52

He's talking to him about the issue, and he is addressing the fact that this is something that is so serious that it would be leading to being worthy of excommunication.

01:26:06

He's speaking to this former member because he is trying to get this former member to realize how serious, not simply the sharing of a meme is, but the underlying and growing concerns of his behavior and actions.

01:26:21

And one thing that I can say very clearly, and even more so knowing Pastor Tobias, is that on this call, and this is how we need to listen to this

01:26:31

Zoom call, what we hear from Pastor Tobias and his fellow elder, Pastor Peter, are two pastors who are pleading for the soul of a former member that they care for for the sake of where he is at spiritually.

01:26:49

And we have biblical principles in Matthew 18, and then with regards to the subject of excommunication in 1

01:26:57

Corinthians 5. And one of the things that as pastors we must be doing when it comes to the subject of sin and unrepentant sin is pleading with brothers, sisters who are in sin to flee from this, to repent, to turn from whatever harmful content or harmful actions that they're engaged with.

01:27:19

And this is what Pastor Tobias is desperately seeking to do. You can see and hear in the way in which he is speaking, he cares.

01:27:29

Joel, I think at one point was actually making reference, or it might have been one of his followers, I don't want to misquote, but somebody had been saying, oh, well, one person was calm in the

01:27:38

Zoom call, namely Joel. Well, yes, this is an instance where there needs to be an urgency.

01:27:44

Just like, for example, when people are preaching the word of God from the pulpit, we're not commending someone for maintaining calmness the whole time.

01:27:51

No, these are serious spiritual matters. And what we hear from Pastor Tobias is a shepherd who cares for his sheep, and even one who isn't even a member anymore, but he's still going out of his way because he has such a care for this brother.

01:28:05

And you've got to remind our listeners, especially if they just tuned in, this is not just about a meme.

01:28:12

It is about why a meme was found by this individual as being humorous.

01:28:18

It's because this person became a Holocaust revisionist, a Holocaust denier, and has been clearly demonstrating a hatred for Jews, even if those kinds of exact words are not used.

01:28:38

And by the way, folks, I said this yesterday, just because someone says, I don't hate Jews, doesn't mean they don't hate

01:28:45

Jews. And as I said yesterday, you could scour the internet for interviews with former

01:28:53

Ku Klux Klan leader, David Duke, searching high and low for him to say that he hated black people.

01:29:00

You'll never find them because that wasn't a part of his rhetoric, even though he clearly hated them in a sense and viewed them as inferior.

01:29:09

But anyway, I took up too much of your time there. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't think this was some kind of a legalist pastor trying to go overboard in discipline because of somebody being involved in a meme.

01:29:27

Yeah, that's helpful to stress that point and to stress it again in terms of the drive towards addressing the underlying issue, because this is not something that is exclusive simply to this former member or connected with any one person's church, whether it be

01:29:45

Jules in Texas or anyone else. This is a growing movement that is gaining much momentum.

01:29:52

And it is something that needs to be addressed. And it actually takes me to a few other related points, actually just following on from what you've just said there,

01:30:03

Chris. So one of the things that I find interesting, first of all, with regards to this former member in the

01:30:09

Zoom call, at one point he was making reference to the fact that the measures that were taking place against the

01:30:18

Jews, it wasn't the Holocaust that was happening. This was just what happens to prisoners of war.

01:30:24

And as Pastor Peter said in the Zoom call, well, these measures were starting long before there was any war.

01:30:29

So the argument that was trying to be justified to try to explain why there would be a ridiculing of the

01:30:39

Holocaust, much of it didn't make sense. And it also communicated the greater concerns, which is what we're talking about.

01:30:47

But another thing that was really striking was when Jule finally got involved in the communication.

01:30:54

And he was very clever in terms of how he approached communicating the discussions that he's had with this member of his church.

01:31:04

And I found Pastor Peter's questions to him were particularly helpful in addressing not so much what

01:31:12

Jule is saying, but rather what he isn't saying, and with regards to who he does endorse, and with regards to who he doesn't detach himself from.

01:31:25

So take, first of all, Corey Mailer and the Stone Choir podcast.

01:31:31

Now, I wouldn't really want to encourage any listener to spend too much time looking at any tweets by Corey Mailer, and I certainly wouldn't want to recommend the

01:31:40

Stone Choir podcast. But some of the things that are being communicated by that channel,

01:31:46

I mean, they are, I mean, it would be the very example of hatred. And so this would be the sort of content that any biblically -minded pastor would be warning his congregation to stay far away from.

01:32:01

Openly, openly neo -Nazi, specifically. Yes, I mean, explicitly so.

01:32:08

And I mean, it seems to be getting worse and worse now that this situation's hotting up.

01:32:14

And it was interesting that Jule did, in the Zoom call, he did, in some ways, detach himself from some of the things that Corey Mailer says, which

01:32:24

Tobias has commended him for, absolutely, but at the same time was acknowledging that some of the episodes and content is good.

01:32:33

And Peter started to address who it is that Jule decides to publicly endorse.

01:32:40

And this really taps into that point that you were making here with regards to, if these people say that, oh yeah, they've not got a hatred of Jews, or they're not, these things that we were trying to kind of address, then when they see some of their main followers on X posting such vile content, then you would expect the influencers, like Jule, A .D.

01:33:06

Robles, and others, to be writing clearly, this needs to stop, and highlighting, no, this is going too far.

01:33:14

No, this is a sin, you need to repent. When do we see these men doing that? And yet at the same time,

01:33:21

A .D. Robles is one of the most explicit examples. He dedicates podcasts to utterly slandering a pastor, a man of integrity from Germany, with hours worth of content based on what exactly.

01:33:40

So again, we need to consider what exactly these people are saying and what they're choosing not to say to understand the heart of the issue here, because silence on certain subjects is actually simply not good enough.

01:33:59

And especially when we're dealing with this issue hottening up, we would be surely expecting this to be more clearly communicated, and it isn't.

01:34:08

Now, if you could, there's something that I want you to make clear as best as you can, why it is that I, every day, am hearing from people in social media, oh,

01:34:21

I've seen the Zoom call, or I've listened to the Zoom call, and Tobias definitely lied.

01:34:29

Now, clarify why people are getting that impression, and perhaps some of these people are lying themselves, but go ahead if you could.

01:34:39

So I think from what I've picked up, because I've looked at many of the different arguments that have been made by people who say they've listened to the

01:34:48

Zoom call, I think the number one reason for that is relating to this point of the subject of excommunication.

01:34:57

And this is, again, why I would encourage those who believe that Tobias has lied, once maybe if you've listened to this podcast episode, and certainly if you've listened to Tobias's response statement, which is released, go back and listen to this, and see who it is that Tobias is speaking to.

01:35:16

What he has been explicitly accused of doing, which is trying to force and insist that Joel excommunicates this member of his church, he hasn't done that.

01:35:28

So that is not a lie. For him to address his former member regarding the subject of excommunication is a different thing.

01:35:36

Yes, just like you brought up the difference between Presbyterians and Baptists earlier. I could be having a conversation with a

01:35:46

Presbyterian pastor who is now pastoring a former member of my own Reformed Baptist church.

01:35:52

And I could be talking about the very serious and great importance of believers' baptism.

01:36:00

That's not me trying to push a Presbyterian pastor to baptize a person as a believer by immersion.

01:36:11

It's just me talking about what I believe is true. And in this case, you have somebody talking about, and in this case, it's

01:36:22

Pastor Tobias, talking about this issue of anti -Semitism being so serious.

01:36:31

It would warrant church discipline in Pastor Tobias' congregation. But he's not demanding

01:36:38

Joel Webben do it. And in fact, I don't even see the logical reason he would demand

01:36:45

Joel Webben do it when Joel has demonstrated he's extremely soft on the whole issue and doesn't find it offensive that this person has these

01:36:56

Holocaust revisionist views. Am I overstepping the case here? Well, no,

01:37:02

I mean, you're absolutely not. And in fact, what I would say on top of that is that this is actually what warranted

01:37:11

Tobias' greater concern and why he then went on to, for example, the Iron Sharpens Iron episode to address not the details of the

01:37:19

Zoom call, but this underlying problem. Because the thing that alarmed

01:37:24

Tobias most was not regarding whether Joel was going to excommunicate this member or not, it was the fact that Joel didn't seem to have any official position on this matter.

01:37:38

And this was the thing that was of great concern. And it should be. Now, what

01:37:43

Tobias, Peter, and I, and many others have wanted to make clear, we're not saying to, for example, young men, oh, well, you shouldn't be questioning anything to do with World War II or the post -war consensus or anything like that, even when it comes to what's been communicated about the

01:38:00

Jews and the Holocaust. No, it's good to kind of look into things. We trust the Bible is authoritative.

01:38:06

We don't trust everything the government spins to us. We get that. But this is not what we're talking about.

01:38:12

We're not talking about asking questions. We're talking about promoting and driving something that is overtly anti -biblical because the oneness that we have in Christ is because of Christ, and it's a spiritual unity that we have.

01:38:28

And that includes people from different ethnicities, different backgrounds. In our church, we're in Scotland.

01:38:34

We have not sought to reach a particular ethnic group, but we have people from different parts of the world.

01:38:41

And it is a joy to gather together, not because some are black, some are white. It's because we are born -again believers.

01:38:48

We're united by the blood of Christ. That needs to be the emphasis. And where do we see

01:38:53

Christ in this wicked and prevailing narrative? In fact, I want to ask a listener question because I think it hinges on some of the things you're saying basically involving the global nature of this issue that far transcends a local private problem between two pastors and two churches.

01:39:21

This being something that is a growing and dangerous and satanic phenomenon.

01:39:28

All right, so we have Vlad, as in Vladimir, from Seattle, Washington.

01:39:35

My question is, why did Tobias make a matter that should have never been made public public?

01:39:42

This should never have happened. And can Tobias at least agree to repent for making this situation public when he should never have?

01:39:52

Okay, so again, we need to backtrack with regards to, I mean, it does seem somewhat juvenile to say the who said what, but it is important because this is quite a key accusation that's launched against Tobias.

01:40:08

Yes, in most, almost all cases, this, in fact, any case we would hope that this would be something that is dealt with privately.

01:40:18

This being aired in the public forum of X has been a right mess.

01:40:23

I think we can all agree with that. But what we have to bear in mind, two things. With regards to the underlying issue,

01:40:31

I would argue, and Tobias would certainly argue, this is something that needs to be publicly addressed. Now, when it comes to, well, okay, you addressed this issue, but surely you wouldn't be addressing the specifics of a

01:40:42

Zoom call. Exactly. So for example, when Tobias went on to Iron Sharpens Iron, he wasn't focusing on this former member of his and the details of a

01:40:53

Zoom call. He was focusing on the issue. It was Joel who went on to the podcast first to make it personal and make it about this former member, this member of his church that he has repeatedly claimed that he cares for, but Tobias doesn't, and this former member doesn't trust

01:41:10

Tobias, this sort of thing. Again, let me just make it clear in terms of what was being communicated.

01:41:17

Joel was the one who was saying of Tobias that he'd lost his mind, needs to be redeemed of his boomer brain, pastoral abusive, and that Tobias won't be satisfied until this member of his is excommunicated.

01:41:28

So Joel was the one who instigated that, and we could even speculate in terms of saying, was he even trying to provoke a response from Tobias to distract from the underlying issue and to make it about one meme?

01:41:42

Because exactly, it is not about one meme, but that's the way the narrative has been driven so that it distracts from these underlying issues and it focuses on, oh, well, there's inconsistencies in Tobias' statement.

01:41:55

He was asking for excommunication. He wasn't asking, he wasn't forcing Joel in any way to do this.

01:42:01

So when it comes to, should Tobias be repenting over this, I would say, no, not for that reason.

01:42:08

In fact, this is something that if it was being taken through a Christian court, then Joel's podcast should be being analyzed and scrutinized, but that has been ignored from the

01:42:18

Twitter mob. Right, and because of the fact that this issue of the anti -Semitism involved reached basically a standstill, doesn't this need to go in some sense,

01:42:32

I'm not saying that unnecessarily revealing personal and private information of parties involved is what you do, but doesn't it have to go public in some sense to the church at large when you notice something dangerous in a church that has got your same confession of faith?

01:42:51

I mean, I think that there are instances, I mean, we can maybe even think of examples in church history where a certain situation, it provokes the, or it proves to be the catalyst or the springboard to launching into the deeper issues.

01:43:10

And that consistently happens even on a local church level. And on that basis, yes, this being publicized,

01:43:18

I hope and pray is going to be helpful. It has been immensely trying for Tobias to have been put through the amount of lies and slander about him in the process of these past few weeks.

01:43:31

But at the same time, he is still driven and motivated. Not, I mean, the issue, if it was simply about clearing his name, if that was the only thing, then he has already described that he would have walked away from this.

01:43:46

But it's not just with regards to the issue of his name, even though I've said to him as his friend, in terms of your pastoral integrity being communicated, this is something

01:43:57

I hope and pray, not just I, but others will be publicly endorsing in the days and weeks to come, because I believe that is important.

01:44:04

Because I don't want to see anything even bringing repute on the gospel in terms of his ministry, if people have questions over his integrity, which

01:44:11

I think is ludicrous. But setting that aside, yes, when we're dealing with addressing things like neo -Nazism and white nationalism, this mindset of segregating people, which does literally bring racial tensions in a way that we see from the liberal left.

01:44:29

And this is something that has been quite ironic in a worse sense of it, is that the behavior of some of these people is very similar to what we would see of these leftist ideologists, where they're taking things like race and making that a grounds for dividing, in this case, people within the body of Christ.

01:44:53

In fact, and that is - Pick up where you left off there. We have to go to our final break. Please don't go away, folks.

01:44:58

We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

01:52:16

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01:52:51

We're now back with John William Noble, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Aberdeen, Scotland, and I know that you want to make reference to the woke virtue signaling of some folks and warn people to look out for contradictions.

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Yeah, I mean, in the days to come, especially when

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Pastor Tobias's video response is released, there's certain patterns that we can start to pick up on quite clearly and some inconsistencies.

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I mean, one of which has been, and I believe Pastor Jacob mentioned this yesterday because he actually raised this in discussion a while back.

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Some of these slogans like No Brother Wars, and there's also been the White Boys Summer, these actually stem from the white nationalist roots.

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And this No Brother Wars argument has been one that has been raised by a couple of prominent pastors, and many, many people have quoted this.

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And what we have to realize is that we're dealing with people who love to shoot off at every given moment, including mockery videos of Tobias's Zoom call.

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So basically, they are the ones who were inciting Brother Wars consistently. And yet at the same time, when anything is said against them or against anything they believe, then they'll suddenly start crying,

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Oh, no more Brother Wars. Now, again, these are people who seem to thrive in the battle.

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And yeah, I mean, I can certainly appreciate getting stuck into issues, but this level of virtue signaling is the sort of behavior that we would come to expect from the liberal left.

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So they will promote a narrative, and then if someone speaks against it, then they'll start crying victim.

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And they'll say, Oh, no, no more, please, no more, please. And we're seeing the very same behavior from conservative

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Christian leaders who have large followings on X. And this just riles up the crowd.

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And again, as I've mentioned earlier, then the many followers, possibly in their thousands, are then jumping on this.

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And they are using the no more Brother Wars cry to then further accuse the likes of Pastor Tobias.

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So be aware of this. And this is something that we do want to highlight.

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And people like Eli McGowan, that I've mentioned, and a few others are starting to identify these inconsistencies and the focus on what has often been self or this narrative of dividing based on ethnicity or anything else, rather than Christ.

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And this is something that we do want to continue to attack. Unfortunately, this has become a brother war, and we want to see this end.

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And certainly we want to detach ourselves from any wickedness, but it does involve addressing issues at this stage.

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And that's what we're intent on doing. And by the way, folks, I want to remind you that the man who is being slandered globally in the social media that we're discussing,

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Tobias Riemenschneider, is a vital man of God, servant of Christ in Germany, one of the only voices crying out and trying to bring an end to the slaughter of unborn children.

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And for those of you who are confessional Reformed Baptists, one of the very few pastors in Germany who's also an adherent to the 1689

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, I'd like you to close now, Pastor John William, with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

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If you have access to the Zoom call dealing with this issue first, then if you can dedicate time, please do listen to the

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Zoom call again and consider that this is a pastor, Pastor Tobias, who is pleading with a brother, a former member of his church.

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That is his focus and emphasis, and clearly he is not calling Joel to excommunicate him.

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And with regards to the wider issue of neo -Nazism and white nationalism, as we're raising awareness of this and as the

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Antioch Declaration has very helpfully began to provoke more thought with regards to engaging this issue, this is something that we need to see being crushed.

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Quite literally, it is something that has no place within biblical Christianity, conservative biblical

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Christianity, and it's very important to decipher between what is true and what is not.

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Just because something is in the hard right, it does not mean that it's right. And so this is why the

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Scriptures are our authority and what our oneness in Jesus Christ means and looks like in application, it does mean fighting.

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It means fighting as Tobias does with regards to preaching the gospel in the face of leftist ideologies, in the face of issues such as abortion, in terms of even apostate and wicked frameworks within his church context in Germany.

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Tobias is engaged in all of that because he is a biblical man of God, a man of integrity, and I hope and pray that this has, at the very least, been able to pause people in their conclusions that Tobias is a liar and a slanderer because he categorically is not, and this is something that I wanted to publicly endorse today in this call.

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I loved having you on the program. I look forward to having you back often. And to remind our listeners, your website at Grace Baptist Church of Aberdeen, Scotland is graceaberdeen .org,

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graceaberdeen .org. And folks, we may be joined by Tobias Riemenschneider himself this

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Friday. We're still trying to work that out. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater