Perseverance of the Saints and Assurance of Faith

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Assurance of Salvation and the Test of True Faith

The Apostle Paul said to the Corinthians test yourselves to see if you're in the faith examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail?

The test welcome to the dividing line today. We are live and back Don't have the foggiest idea what happened last week, but we're back and with it this week and welcome to the program Going to be discussing some interesting things today and invite your participation.

If you would like to be a part of things at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty-one eight seven seven seven five three thirty-three Forty-one is the phone number to be involved today.

I Chose that passage of scripture because as many of you might know I have been looking at a book and tell what love is this by Dave Hunt and Have been looking at the section on the perseverance of the Saints as many of you know, we are writing a book on the subject of Calvinism and when I say we I mean, mr. Hunt and myself it is a debate book.

Unlike the co-authored books I've done the past with Kevin Johnson and with Jeff Neal Mr. Hunt and I are on the opposite side of this issue. So it's a point counterpoint book. I'm writing on seven topics.

He's writing on seven topics interestingly enough. I was looking at them Just this past week and I noted that all seven of my topics are positive presentations of a belief that is they are either on something like The the proper and free kingship of God that is God's sovereignty Unconditional election or they're on Bible passages such as Romans chapters 8 and 9 or John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 and All of mr. Hunt's topics are negatives about how Calvinism makes a mockery of of God and makes a mockery of man's will and so on and so forth but one of the topics of course is on the final point of the five points of Calvinism the perseverance of the Saints and There is a chapter in mr. Hunt's book on this particular subject and so since that's going to be one of the topics I assume of course that mr. Hunt's presentation his 3 ,000 word presentation on the perseverance the Saints is going to partake of mainly of what is found in that chapter so I was looking at it and trying to understand the Positive position that underlies what mr. Hunt is a time trying to say in regards to his disagreement With the Reformed understanding of the perseverance of the Saints.

It's very clear that mr. Hunt disagrees. But exactly why is the issue one of the difficulties I have with Dave Hunt's book is that he doesn't really present a positive Case for his position. He just blasts away at at Calvinism.

He doesn't really tell us exactly where he's coming from his position is assumed and all sorts of questions concerning the consistency of his own Assertions automatically come up in the mind, but they're not they're not addressed.

It would say it would seem to me that if you're writing on a particular subject that you would wish to consider if I say I'm writing on Roman Catholicism, for example, and I say about Roman Catholicism that they believe X Y or Z and this is wrong because of this if that statement automatically raises in my mind Objections to my own position if I could see how one of my opponents Would say hey, wait a minute.

You're being inconsistent because you said this in the past I will try even in just discussing Roman Catholic position to demonstrate the consistency of my own position. Sort of in a in a way of of anticipating objection.

Well, this is not something That mr. Hunt Does in any way shape or form and it makes it somewhat frustrating to attempt to interact with his information with his with his materials? Well anyways in looking at this chapter He's writing against the Calvinistic perspective and in essence his assertion is that that Calvinism Takes away all possibility of Having any type of assurance.

On page 378 Well, let me just just read some sections here so you have an idea of exactly where we're where we're coming from. At The beginning of chapter 22 he writes that before beginning what turned into an urgent and in-depth study of Calvinism Urgent as in very fast I might note I had thought that I was at least a one-point Calvinist surely my belief in eternal security the assurance of salvation Eternally in God's presence must be the same as Calvinism's perseverance the Saints that turned out however not to be the case why?

Biblical assurance of salvation does not depend upon one's performance. But upon the Gospels declaration that Christ died for the sins the world and upon his promise that whosoever believes in him receives the gift of eternal life.

In Contrast the Calvinist assurance is in God having predestined him to eternal life as one of the elect and his Performance plays a large part in helping him to know whether or not he is among that select group cops insists that God's answer to doubt the only proper fount of assurance of salvation of getting to heaven glorification is the doctrine of Predestination.

That view has serious problems as we shall see I Believe in my Savior the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore according to his promise my sins are forgiven. I have been born again into God's family as his dear child in heaven is my eternal home.

Christ calls us come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden. I will give you rest Matthew 11 28 laden with sin I came to him and as he promised found rest in him alone Christ guaranteed him that cometh to me.

I will know wise cast out John 637. I just paused to note just in passing That's the second half of a sentence. The first half of the sentence is the passage that talks about of course.

The the.

Eternal predestining act of the father in which he gives The the elect unto the son. He just sort of skipped that part. I came to him by faith in his word and he will never cast me out. Ie I can never be lost.

My assurance is in his promise and keeping power not in my efforts or performance He said I give unto them my sheep eternal life and they shall never perish. John 10 28. It would be strange eternal life indeed if it were here today and gone tomorrow.

Yet many professing Christians including five-point Calvinists who believe in perseverance of the Saints are troubled with doubts concerning their salvation. Doubts even a sail leading Calvinist Zane C Hodges points out that the result of this theology is Disastrous since according to Puritan belief the genuineness of a man's faith can only be determined by the life that follows it.

Assurance of salvation becomes impossible at the moment of conversion and one might add at any time thereafter as well for reasons. We will show Piper and his staff right? We must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith.

No wonder then as RT Kendall has commented that nearly all the Puritan divines Went through great doubt and despair on their deathbeds as they realized their lives did not give perfect evidence that they were elect.

Arminius on the other hand contrary to the false label attached to him by his enemies had perfect assurance and said that the believer can Depart out of this life to appear before the throne of grace without any anxious fear.

Then under the title and endemic Uncertainty of salvation why such uncertainty among Calvinist? Why such doubts and what can the Calvinist find assurance. Oddly enough certainty of salvation and confidence of one's eternal destiny is not to be Found in the fifth point of Calvinism where one would expect it nor can it be found in the other four points.

While many Calvinist would deny it uncertainty as to one's ultimate salvation is in fact built in the very fabric of their system. Congen writes absolute assurance of salvation is impossible in classical Calvinism.

Understand why. Since works are an inevitable result of true salvation one can only know he or she is saved by the presence of good Works, but since no one is perfect any assurance is at best imperfect as well.

Therefore you may think you believe in Jesus Christ. You may think you had saving faith. But be sadly mistaken and because unsaved be totally blind to the fact that you are unsaved. RC sprolling an article entitled assurance of salvation writes there are people in this world who are not saved.

But who are convinced that they are when our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works. We can never have absolute assurance. But the scripture discouraged giving objective assurance of salvation.

Hardly on the contrary the Lord Jesus John 524 Paul Romans 8 38 to 39 and John 1st John 5 11 13 have no qualms about offering absolute objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore works are never included as requirement for assurance.

And then interestingly enough He quotes from Bob Wilkin of the Grace Evangelical Society and Bob Wilkin is one of the leading anti Lordship anti-repentance Writers out there today, and he quotes from Wilkin About attending a Ligonier National Conference and then goes on to say what a commentary that lack of assurance of salvation permeated the Ligonier National Conference featuring major Calvinist leaders.

Why should that be? Because the Calvinist cannot rely upon Christ's promise of eternal life or upon the gospel which are only for the elect instead his security Lies in knowing that he is one of the elect.

Piper writes we believe in eternal security the eternal security of the elect and there and there one confronts a serious problem. How can one be certain that one is among that select predestined company etc etc now?

Here's here's the the real issue he goes on and on and on and that is is the. Constant argumentation is you can't know for certain you're a part of the elect therefore you cannot have true assurance. But if you wanted to make this a meaningful critique He would explain to us how by denying the existence of the elect that he himself obtains The kind of assurance that he says that he has.

There's a very very obvious Action of equivocation going on here that is Mr. Hunt seems to be saying well I Trust Christ to save me now in reality. That that of course makes me stop immediately go wait a minute.

Is it not your position that Christ attempts to save every single individual equally. That's the whole essence of his love of God argument there can be no particular love of God. God unlike me unlike the creature He made cannot have special love for for anything.

He can only have a peanut butter love that is just you know spread out over everything and so. How is it that saying well, I believe Christ can save me well He can save me as long as I with my free will cooperate with him.

But how is it that saying well, I've believed in Christ, and so I believe that he can save me how is he paralleling that with an obviously different question and. That is what the Calvinists are addressing is how can I know that I have true faith?

How does mr. Hunt know that he has true faith?

In.

Fact given the position that he's enunciated here Anyone who says they believe in Jesus Christ from his perspective must have true faith no matter how they live or What they believe? But we know that's not mr.. Hunt's position.

We know he does not hold the position that Mormons are saved by believing in Jesus. He'd agree with us. They have the wrong Jesus. But wait a minute that means that there is a certain Doctrinal element to that faith and hence there is such a thing as false faith.

But mr. Hunt seemingly wants to have his cake and eat it too because his position does not give him any basis for testing faith. Unless what he's saying is well the only test of faith is a doctrinal one and certainly out agreed.

There is a doctrinal test of faith the object of faith must be God's truth. It must be God's Son. It must be his gospel. There's no question about that. But if there is a test for the objective reality of faith in the sense of its of its object Then how can he object to us saying?

That there must be some test of whether a person has a true faith or a false faith, and is he actually saying? That the Bible never tells us to do. Well what it tells us to do in 2nd Corinthians 13 5 Test yourselves to see or if in the as if you're in the faith.

Examine yourselves. Well, what's this examination supposed to be about on? What basis can it be is it only a doctrinal thing? When we examine the passages of Scripture that talk about the means by which we know that we are in Christ.

Is it only doctrinal? Now certainly there are doctrinal tests. John tells us that those who Claim to love God those who claim to be of the body and yet deny that Jesus Christ came the flesh are liars.

They're deceiving themselves. So there's a doctrinal thing they claim to have true and saving faith, but they don't. But John also says in the very same passage That Those who claim to love God and Yet hate their brother are liars.

That's not doctrinal. That's behavioral. That's experiential and John doesn't seem to have any difficulty going back and forth between those two things in Fact it's fascinating when you go back, and there are only a couple of passages That were cited by mr. Hunt.

But did you notice what? What they were? John 5 24 Jesus says if you believe in him you have passed out of death into life. Every Calvinist believes that of course Calvinist simply says if you have true saving faith in him.

Romans 8 38 to 39 that's fascinating because that call that follows Romans 8 28 through 37 which is all about God's predestination and election and and all that stuff and You've got particular redemption in there and the whole nine yards, but we skip over that.

The main one that is cited over and over again of course is first John chapter 5 and I'd like to invite you to take a moment to turn to first John chapter 5 if you happen to have a Bible with you or if you're if you're listening via real audio on the web you probably have a Bible program on your computer that you can bring up and Hopefully your computer has sufficient resources to run it and a real audio at the same time and Thankfully mine does and first John chapter 5 verse 11 Says the following and the testimony is this that God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son.

He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now there is no question that This passage and especially first John 5 13 has been misused in large streams of evangelicalism for a very long time it always Bothers me as it should bother anyone when you read some of the more surface-level Catholic apologists when you Listen to Tim Staples or Carl Keating or James Aiken.

Easily refuting the misuse of passages like this when surface-level evangelicals throw them out watching surface-level folks fight with surface-level folks is is always a very frustrating thing and It is it's very frustrating to recognize the Catholic is right at that point.

When a person just throws out well first John 5 13 says these things I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so you may know you have eternal life. You can just know it. Okay, there's no question that you can but let me ask you a question.

Let's say you're a You're a computer programmer. We have a lot of geeks in the channel who do computer programming. We have American geeks and British geeks and Australian geeks and just we have we have a world of geek geeks in in the channel and many of them do computer programming and or at least act like they do and Let's say someone came to you with a contract to do some programming for them and The program the the contract said something along the lines of when you do these things you'll be paid $2 ,000.

Well, obviously you probably want to know what these things refers to. If you if you sign a contract that that has the phrase these things in it You might want to know what these things is refer what's the referent what's what's the these things we're talking about.

It doesn't seem to cross the mind of many Individuals that These things in first John 5 13 Has reference to something. Well, what is it? Well these things Would refer first of all to the immediate context you go back in first John chapter 5 Talks about of course having the son.

We've already run across a number of passages in 1st John chapter 2 and chapter 4 about those who do not have the son because they do not Believe the father's testimony concerning his coming in the flesh and so on and so forth but the these things would refer to everything that came before this in first John and First John is filled with all sorts of Tests all Sorts of passages that are meant to give us assurance upon what basis.

Well think about. Oh first John chapter 2 for example. This passage says well just just think about some of these things. The one who says I have come to know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and The truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps his word in him the love of God has truly been perfected by this. We know that we are in him. The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked.

Well, wait a minute that that sounds like it involves self-examination. It sounds like it involves Consistency. Well, it does. Well, how are you supposed to how are you supposed to take first John chapter 2?

Verses 4 through 6 and How is that supposed to give you assurance if you are not examining your life in the light of those words? But mr. Hunt tells us that's all wrong. You just simply believe that Jesus can save you.

Well every Calvinist I know of believes that that's not the question. The question is how do I know that I have true faith? It's not questioning Jesus's ability to save. That isn't the issue. That's the problem with mr. Hunt's entire presentation.

He's comparing his belief that Jesus can save which I would say my my faith that Jesus can save is Considerably greater in the sense that I accept that he can infallibly do so without my assistance. He's comparing that to the real issue that's being addressed here.

And that is when I examine my own life. How do I know if I'm a hypocrite or not? What are the standards? What does the scripture say? Mr. Hunt doesn't give us a positive presentation of how he understands these passages.

Therefore. It's hard to say and Since by the way in this book, he's gonna be doing the the positive I don't know that. I'm not gonna have I don't know that I'm gonna have much time to actually Ask him to do so, but we'll we'll see what comes of it.

But you can see here in first John chapter 2 to apply these words Requires you to actually think about your own life. Look at verse 9 the one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

Well here you have a person who says he's in the light. Here's a person who says I am in the light and yet he's doing something that that demonstrates he's not. He's not in the light. Well. Wouldn't this be a person?

Described in some of the quotations that we read from. Mr. Hunt. Here's a person has a false faith. He is deceived. He thinks he's a believer. He's not isn't that what pretty much all of James is about and Isn't that what first John's about and isn't this all through the New Testament?

It certainly is. Verse 15 do not love the world or the things in the world if anyone loves the world the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world the lust of flesh and lust the eyes the most of pride of life is not from the Father but is from the world.

If you have the love of the world the love of the Father is not in you. How are you to know that or you just did not worry about it? For those wondering the Roman Catholic in apologetics Is commenting on the fact that I said something about surface-level apologists and I was referring to Books like Carl Keating's book that referred that responds to the worst in Protestant apologetics and doesn't deal with the real serious stuff.

That's that's what I was referring to. That's not ad hominem.

I.

Think I can substantiate the fact that they respond not to the best but to the worst. They're responding to jack chick and people like that and that's not ad hominem. But that particular Roman Catholic in the channel is looking for anything Whatsoever to say.

Ah, I have refuted James White. Aha that type of thing. So that's what is going on there back to what we were saying. Those of you I can just see a mass run over to apologetics that I see there went wonky anyways as I was saying.

These passages are all over the New Testament, but they are not addressed by mr. Hunt and so the question Really has to be addressed to mr. Hunt. Not only what do you do with these passages? But how do you determine whether a person has true faith or not?

Now one of the things that mr. Hunt finds extremely Just all he has to do is just state it and assume everyone's gonna go gasp. Oh, that's terrible. That's horrible. One of the things he finds extremely distasteful is a quotation from Calvin Where he says that God has even given to some people a a false assurance a false faith.

Well, I think that is quite true. I Think that would be a very proper judicial punishment to bring upon someone who has Flaunted God's truth. Upon what basis would you argue against that? Anyone and mr. Hunt certainly has has encountered these kinds of people.

I have encountered many of a person who just loves to twist the Word of God. They live to twist the Word of God. They live to attack the Word of God any Argument is not Too inane to be used to attack God's freedom to attack God's grace and Yet these people will confidently tell you that they have eternal life.

Where does that kind of blindness come from? Where does that kind of of? Self-deception come from and Furthermore if we recognize that nothing takes place in this world. But it does so at God's permission and that God has a purpose in all things that there is no purposeless thing that goes on in this world.

Then we know that is God's purpose that the church must struggle throughout her existence against false teachers. Well, what gives those false teachers the.

The.

Absolute desire to press on in many cases. Even when refuted. Remember the the what were called evil spirits sent from the Lord to to false prophets in Israel. To bring about God's judgment upon Israel.

Those passages are there in the Bible. I don't know what mr. Hunt does with them. I don't know what anyone does to them. They're there. God had a purpose in doing it and people all that's not fair. How could God do that?

Remember folks as soon as an individual sins the next breath they take is based on grace and mercy. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that God might bring glory to himself. And when those Kings for example constantly rejected God's prophets Demonstrated that they were concerned only about themselves concerned only about the self and grand eyes mint of their kingdom God could have struck them down right then.

So what's wrong with bringing judicial punishment upon them that brings God even more glory than just simply striking them down. By deceiving them and bring punishment upon themselves and others in any way that God so chooses to do so.

Well, we just don't like that. It seems to be the response from many people. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. We're gonna take our half-hour break and be right back.

Justification by Faith and the Reformation

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book The God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White. Get your copy today at a omen org.

Roman Catholicism, Evangelical Cooperation, and the Gospel

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain in regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen.

Org. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Self-Examination, Assurance, and the New Testament Tests

And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We're talking about.

Self-examination in the sense of looking at our faith. Asking the question. Well, why does the Bible tell us to examine ourselves see whether when their faith? Why what is this test that is spoken of in 2nd Corinthians 13?

Why does 1st John over and over and over again give us these? Means of knowing whether we are truly in him or whether we are a liar or not. That is the question. By the way, I have someone personal messaging me.

I really can't respond to personal messages while I'm on the air. I think that's fairly obvious. Anyways Why are these things there? Why does James give us all the discussion that James gives us in regards to?

Recognizing true faith and false faith and the the marks of saving faith and all the rest that kind of stuff. Unless there is something that is extremely important about recognizing that there will be those who have a false faith.

There will be those who claim to be something that they are not seemingly. Seemingly from mr. Hunt's perspective. These are issues that we are not to address or that we are not to have any way of actually recognizing true faith versus false faith and Why might that be?

Well, I would suggest it is because.

The.

True saving faith that we talked about is the work of the Holy Spirit of God from mr Hunt's perspective since he denies God's freedom and election and he denies the work of the Spirit of God in bringing about Regeneration and giving the gift of faith.

He denies that faith is a gift. Then everybody has the same kind of faith. And if there can be false faith then there can anyone who claims to have true faith that can become false faith. See, there's no.

There has never ever ever ever been a basis in a non-reformed satirology for a belief in eternal security or the perseverance of the Saints. Mr. Hunt never had a rational basis for for believing in that point.

If it was of your own free will to get into this Then it's gonna be of your own free will to get out of it. I've never understood that and I've said about I've said about that. I've talked about that before.

That is a lie James. I have no idea what that's we do teach is an act of the Spirit. I Wasn't even referring to Roman Catholicism, sir. But if you want to talk about Roman Catholic that that's so that's even so far down.

The the theological road there that I'm not even addressing that. I'm talking about Dave Hunt and evangelicalism. Regeneration done by baptism. Done by everyone including those individuals who will not persevere.

That's not that's not the biblical teaching. So that's for sure. But.

The.

I've commented many many times those who attempt to Hold to eternal security while inserting free will simply contradict themselves if free will is so vitally important at the beginning Then doesn't free will become the very basis Of the rest of their Christian experience and hence it's their free will simply to walk away.

Simply to walk away from that that whole thing. How can that be? I think that was brought out very very well by a question. It was asked in a in a debate with With a Baptist minister we did quite some time ago and the first question was asked of him.

Was it was an excellent one and that was when we get to heaven and There is no evil in heaven. Does that mean we've become less human? Because from your perspective Then free will as you've defined it doesn't exist.

This is being asked the other person. I wish that I had gotten an answer for that because the the person just simply said, ah, well, hey, that's that's the stupidest question I've ever heard. Let's go on from there.

He didn't really answer it, but that is an excellent question if there's no evil in heaven. Why is that do we become less human? Difficult thing to difficult thing to figure out for the person who tries to make this concept of free will.

The be-all and end-all of all things in that particular context eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one perhaps there are some Anti lordship salvation anti Repentance is a part of salvation individuals out there who would like to Address these particular subjects, maybe you'd like to defend what mr. Hunt is saying.

You would be welcome to give us a ring and to participate. Of course, maybe there are those of you who attack. I can see One person channel one person left for some reason he was here earlier. Who was attacking the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints?

I would be glad to defend that because I believe that I believe that Christ cannot fail To save his own. I do not believe that Christ will ever fail in Doing the will of the Father and the will of the Father is that he would save all those who have been given to him.

There's no question of any of that. That is not the question that I'm addressing today. The question I'm addressing today is what mechanism has God given to us? Whereby we might examine our own faith and hence grow in assurance, I believe assurance is something that the Spirit of God gives to us and The Spirit of God gives it to us on the basis of our obedience to his word.

His word has given us these means. Therefore when we use these means in Scripture we grow in our assurance but I think it has been well said by one person that we need to have a working way of recognizing the difference between Eternal security and eternal presumption.

Eternal presumption is a bad thing. Eternal presumption is a bad thing. Your apology is accepted. I Understand that you misunderstood what I was referring to. Just some people this mind let's find that very very strange who's he talking to anyway, well, he's talking to somebody in the chat channel.