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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.
Here is James white The Apostle Paul said to the Corinthians test yourselves to see if you are in the faith examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail?
The test welcome to the dividing line today. We are live and Back, I don't have the foggiest idea what happened last week. But we're back and with it this week and welcome to the program Going to be discussing some interesting things today and invite your participation.
If you would like to be a part of things at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty-one eight seven seven seven five three Thirty-three forty one is the phone number to be involved today.
I Chose that passage of scripture because as many of you might know I have been looking at a book and tell what love is this by Dave Hunt and Have been looking at the section on the perseverance of the Saints as many of you know, we are writing a book on the subject of Calvinism and when I say we I mean, mr. Hunt and myself it is a debate book.
Unlike the co-authored books I've done the past with Kevin Johnson and with Jeff Neal Mr. Hunt and I are on the opposite side of this issue. So it's a point counterpoint book. I'm writing on seven topics.
He's writing on seven topics interestingly enough. I was looking at them Just this past week and I noted that all seven of my topics are positive presentations of a belief that is they are either on something like The the proper and free kingship of God that is God's sovereignty Unconditional election or they're on Bible passages such as Romans chapters 8 and 9 or John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 and All of mr. Hunt's topics are negatives about how Calvinism makes a mockery of of God and makes a mockery of man's will and so on and so forth but one of the topics of course is on the final point of the five points of Calvinism the perseverance of the Saints and There is a chapter in mr. Hunt's book on this particular subject and so since that's going to be one of the topics I assume of course that mr. Hunt's presentation his 3 ,000 word presentation on the perseverance the Saints is going to partake of mainly of what is found in that chapter so I was looking at it and trying to understand the Positive position that underlies what mr. Hunt is a time trying to say in regards to his disagreement With the Reformed understanding of the perseverance of the Saints.
It's very clear that mr. Hunt disagrees. But exactly why is the issue one of the difficulties I have with Dave Hunt's book is that he doesn't really present a positive Case for his position. He just blasts away at at Calvinism.
He doesn't really tell us exactly where he's coming from his position is assumed and all sorts of questions concerning the consistency of his own Assertions automatically come up in the mind, but they're not they're not addressed.
It would say it would seem to me that if you're writing on a particular subject that you would wish to consider if I say I'm writing on Roman Catholicism, for example, and I say about Roman Catholicism that they believe X Y or Z and this is wrong because of this if that statement automatically raises in my mind Objections to my own position if I could see how one of my opponents Would say hey, wait a minute.
You're being inconsistent because you said this in the past I will try even in just discussing Roman Catholic position to demonstrate the consistency of my own position. Sort of in a in a way of of anticipating objection.
Well, this is not something That mr. Hunt Does in any way shape or form and it makes it somewhat frustrating to attempt to interact with his information with his with his materials? Well anyways in looking at this chapter He's writing against the Calvinistic perspective and in essence his assertion is that that Calvinism Takes away all possibility of Having any type of assurance.
On page 378 Well, let me just just read some sections here so you have an idea of exactly where we're where we're coming from. At The beginning of chapter 22 he writes that before beginning what turned into an urgent and in-depth study of Calvinism Urgent as in very fast I might note I had thought that I was at least a one-point Calvinist surely my belief in eternal security the assurance of salvation Eternally in God's presence must be the same as Calvinism's perseverance the Saints that turned out however not to be the case.
Why? Biblical assurance of salvation does not depend upon one's performance. But upon the Gospels declaration that Christ died for the sins the world and upon his promise that whosoever believes in him receives the gift of eternal life.
In Contrast the Calvinist assurance is in God having predestined him to eternal life as one of the elect and his Performance plays a large part in helping him to know whether or not he is among that select group cops insists that God's answer to doubt the only proper fount of assurance of salvation of getting to heaven glorification is the doctrine of Predestination.
That view has serious problems as we shall see I Believe in my Savior the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore according to his promise my sins are forgiven. I have been born again into God's family as his dear child in heaven is my eternal home.
Christ calls us come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden. I will give you rest. Matthew 11 28. Laden with sin I came to him and as he promised found rest in him alone. Christ guaranteed him that cometh to me.
I will know wise cast out John 637. I just paused to note just in passing. That's the second half of a sentence. The first half of the sentence is the passage that talks about of course the the eternal predestining act of the father in which he gives The the elect unto the Son he just sort of skipped that part.
I came to him by faith in his word and he will never cast me out. Ie I can never be lost. My assurance is in his promise and keeping power not in my efforts or performance. He said I give unto them my sheep eternal life and they shall never perish.
John 10 28. It would be strange eternal life indeed if it were here today and gone tomorrow. Yet many professing Christians including five-point Calvinists who believe in perseverance of the Saints are troubled with doubts concerning their salvation.
Doubts even a sail leading Calvinist Zane C Hodges points out that the result of this theology is disastrous since according to Puritan belief the genuineness of a man's faith can only be determined by the life that follows it.
Assurance of salvation becomes impossible at the moment of conversion and one might add at any time thereafter as well for reasons. We will show Piper and his staff right we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience.
Which comes from faith? No wonder then as RT Kendall has commented that nearly all the Puritan divines Went through great doubt and despair on their deathbeds as they realized their lives did not give perfect evidence that they were elect.
Arminius on the other hand contrary to the false label attached to him by his enemies had perfect assurance and said that the believer can Depart out of this life to appear before the throne of grace without any anxious fear.
Then under the title and endemic uncertainty of salvation. Why such uncertainty among Calvinist? Why such doubts and what can the Calvinist find assurance? Oddly enough certainty of salvation and confidence of one's eternal destiny is not to be found in the fifth point of Calvinism.
Where one would expect it nor can it be found in the other four points while many Calvinist would deny it. Uncertainty as to one's ultimate salvation is in fact built in the very fabric of their system.
Congen writes absolute assurance of salvation is impossible in classical Calvinism. Understand why since works are an inevitable result of true salvation one can only know he or she is saved by the presence of good Works, but since no one is perfect any assurance is at best imperfect as well.
Therefore you may think you believe in Jesus Christ. You may think you had saving faith, but be sadly mistaken. And because unsaved be totally blind to the fact that you are unsaved. RC Sproul in an article entitled assurance of salvation Writes there are people in this world who are not saved.
But who are convinced that they are when our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works. We can never have absolute assurance. But the scripture discouraged giving objective assurance of salvation.
Hardly on the contrary the Lord Jesus John 5 24 Paul Romans 8 38 to 39 and John 1st John 5 11 13 have no qualms about offering absolute objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore works are never included as requirement for assurance and then interestingly enough He quotes from Bob Wilkin of the Grace Evangelical Society and Bob Wilkin is one of the leading anti Lordship anti-repentance Writers out there today, and he quotes from Wilkin About attending a Ligonier National Conference and then goes on to say what a commentary that lack of assurance of salvation permeated the Ligonier National Conference Featuring major Calvinist leaders.
Why should that be? Because the Calvinist cannot rely upon Christ's promise of eternal life or upon the gospel which are only for the elect instead his security Lies in knowing that he is one of the elect.
Piper writes we believe in eternal security the eternal security of the elect and there and there one confronts a serious problem. How can one be certain that one is among that select predestined company, etc, etc.
Now, here's here's the the real issue he goes on and on and on and That is is the the constant argumentation is you can't know for certain you're a part of the elect. Therefore you cannot have true assurance.
But if you wanted to make this a meaningful critique He would explain to us how by denying the existence of the elect that he himself obtains The kind of assurance that he says that he has. There's a very very obvious Action of equivocation going on here that is Mr. Hunt seems to be saying well, I Trust Christ to save me now in reality.
That that of course makes me stop immediately go. Wait a minute. Is it not your position that Christ attempts to save every single individual equally. That's the whole essence of his love of God argument.
There can be no particular love of God. God unlike me unlike the creature He made cannot have special love for for anything. He can only have a peanut butter love that is just you know spread out over everything and so How is it that saying well, I believe Christ can save me.
Well, he can save me as long as I with my free will cooperate with him. But how is it that saying well, I've believed in Christ and so I believe that he can save me how is he paralleling that with an obviously different question and That is what the Calvinists are addressing is.
How can I know that I have true faith? How does mr. Hunt know that he has true faith? In Fact given the position that he's enunciated here Anyone who says they believe in Jesus Christ from his perspective must have true faith no matter how they live or What they believe?
But we know that's not mr. Hunt's position. We know he does not hold the position that Mormons are saved by believing in Jesus. He'd agree with us. They have the wrong Jesus. But wait a minute that means that there is a certain Doctrinal element to that faith and hence there is such a thing as false faith.
But mr Hunt seemingly wants to have his cake and eat it too because his position does not give him any basis for testing faith unless what he's saying is well, the only test of faith is a Doctrinal one and certainly I would agree that there is a doctrinal test of faith the object of faith must be God's truth.
It must be God's Son. It must be his gospel. There's no question about that. But if there is a test for the objective reality of faith in the sense of its of its object then how can he object to us saying that there must be some test of whether a person has a True-faith or a false faith and is he actually saying that the Bible never tells us to do?
Well what it tells us to do in 2nd Corinthians 13 5 Test yourselves to see or if in the as if you're in the faith. Examine yourselves. Well, what's this examination supposed to be about on? What basis can it be?
Is it only a doctrinal thing? When we examine the passages of Scripture that talk about the means by which we know that we are in Christ. Is it only doctrinal? Now certainly there are doctrinal tests.
John tells us that those who Claim to love God those who claim to be of the body and yet deny that Jesus Christ came the flesh are liars. They're deceiving themselves. So there's a doctrinal thing they claim to have true and saving faith, but they don't.
But John also says in the very same passage That those who claim to love God and Yet hate their brother are liars. That's not doctrinal. That's behavioral. That's experiential and John doesn't seem to have any difficulty going back and forth between those two things.
In Fact, it's fascinating when you go back and there are only a couple of passages That were cited by mr. Hunt, but did you notice what what they were? John 5 24 Jesus says if you believe in him you have passed out of death into life.
Every Calvinist believes that of course Calvinist simply says if you have true saving faith in him. Romans 8 38 to 39 that's fascinating because that call that follows Romans 8 28 through 37 which is all about God's predestination and election and and all that stuff and You've got particular redemption in there in the whole nine yards, but we skip over that.
The main one that is cited over and over again, of course is first John chapter 5 and I'd like to invite you to take a moment to to turn to first John chapter 5 if you happen to have a Bible with you or if you're if you're listening via real audio on the web, you probably have a Bible program on your computer that you can bring up and hopefully your computer has sufficient resources to run it and a real audio at the same time and Thankfully mine does and first John chapter 5 verse 11 It says the following and the testimony is this that God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son.
He who has the Son has the life he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Now there is no question that That This passage and especially first John 5 13 has been misused in large streams of evangelicalism for a very long time it always Bothers me as it should bother anyone when you read some of the more surface-level Catholic apologists when you Listen to Tim Staples or Carl Keating or James Aiken Easily refuting the misuse of passages like this when surface-level evangelicals throw them out watching surface-level folks fight with surface-level folks is always a very frustrating thing and It is it's very frustrating to recognize the Catholic is right at that point.
When a person just throws out well first John 5 13 says these things I've written to you who believe the name of the Son of God's that you may know you have eternal life. You can just know it. Okay, there's no question that you can but let me ask you a question.
Let's say you're a You're a computer programmer. We have a lot of geeks in the channel who do computer programming. We have American geeks and British geeks and Australian geeks and just we have we have a world of geek geeks In in the channel and many of them do computer programming and or at least act like they do and Let's say someone came to you with a contract to do some programming for them and the program the contract said something along the lines of When you do these things you'll be paid $2 ,000.
Well, obviously you probably Want to know what these things refers to? If you if you sign a contract that that has the phrase these things in it You might want to know What these things is referred? What's the referent?
What's what's the these things we're talking about? It doesn't seem to cross the mind of many Individuals that These things in first John 5 13 Has reference to something. Well, what is it? Well these things Would refer first of all to the immediate context you go back in first John chapter 5 Talks about of course having the Sun we've already Run across a number of passages in first John chapter 2 and chapter 4 about those who do not have the Sun because they do not Believe the father's testimony concerning his coming in the flesh and so on and so forth but the these things would refer to everything that came before this in first John and first John is filled with all sorts of Tests all Sorts of passages that are meant to give us assurance upon what basis.
Well think about Oh first John chapter 2 for example. This passage says well Just just think about some of these things. The one who says I have come to know him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps his word in him the love of God has truly been perfected by this. We know that we are in him. The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked.
Well, wait a minute that that sounds like it involves Self-examination. It Sounds like it involves consistency. Well, it does. Well, how are you supposed to how are you supposed to take first John chapter 2?
Verses 4 through 6. And How is that supposed to give you assurance if you are not examining your life in the light of those words? But mr. Hunt tells us that's all wrong. You just simply believe that Jesus can save you.
Well every Calvinist I know of believes that that's not the question. The question is how do I know that I have true faith? It's not questioning Jesus's ability to save. That isn't the issue. That's the problem with mr. Hunt's entire presentation.
He's comparing his belief that Jesus can save which I would say My my faith that Jesus can save is considerably greater in the sense that I accept that he can Infallibly do so without my assistance. He's comparing that to the real issue that's being addressed here.
And that is when I examine my own life. How do I know if I'm a hypocrite or not? What are the standards? What does the scripture say? Mr. Hunt doesn't give us a positive presentation of how he understands these passages.
Therefore. It's hard to say and Since by the way in this book, he's gonna be doing the the positive. I don't know that I'm not gonna have. I don't know that I'm gonna have much time to actually Ask him to do so, but we'll we'll see what comes of it.
But you can see here in first John chapter 2 to apply these words. Requires you to actually think about your own life. Look at verse 9 the one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
Well here you have a person who says he's in the light. Here's a person who says I am in the light and yet he's doing something that that demonstrates. He's not. He's not in the light well. Wouldn't this be a person?
Described in some of the quotations that we read from. Mr. Hunt. Here's a person has a false faith. He is deceived. He thinks he's a believer. He's not isn't that what pretty much all of James is about and Isn't that what first John's about and isn't this all through the New Testament it certainly is.
Verse 15 do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world the love of the father is not in him. For all that is in the world the lust of flesh and lust the eyes the most pride of life is not from the father.
But is from the world. If you have the love of the world the love of the father is not in you. How are you to know that or you just did not worry about it? For those wondering the Roman Catholic in apologetics Is commenting on the fact that I said something about surface-level apologists and I was referring to books like Carl Keating's book that refer that responds to the worst in Protestant apologetics and doesn't deal with the real serious stuff.
That's that's what I was referring to. That's not ad hominem. I Think I can substantiate the fact that they respond not to the best but to the worst. They're responding to jack chick and people like that and that's not ad hominem.
But that particular Roman Catholic in the channel is looking for anything Whatsoever to say ah I have refuted James White ah ha that type of thing. So that's what is going on there back to what we were saying.
Those of you I can just see a mass run over to apologetics Odyssey there went wonky anyways as I was saying. These passages are all over the New Testament, but they are not addressed by mr. Hunt and so the question Really has to be addressed to mr. Hunt not only what do you do with these passages?
But how do you determine whether a person has true faith or not? Now one of the things that mr. Hunt finds extremely Just all he has to do is just state it and assume everyone's gonna go gasp. Oh, that's terrible.
That's horrible. One of the things he finds extremely distasteful is a quotation from Calvin. Where he says that God has even given to some people a a false assurance a false faith. Well, I think that is quite true.
I Think that would be a very proper judicial punishment to bring upon someone who has flaunted God's truth. Upon what basis would you argue against that? Anyone and mr. Hunt certainly has has encountered these kinds of people.
I have encountered many of a person who just loves to twist the Word of God. They live to twist the Word of God they live to attack the Word of God. Any Argument is not too inane to be used to attack God's freedom to attack God's grace and Yet these people will confidently tell you that they have eternal life.
Where does that kind of blindness come from? Where does that kind of of? self deception come from. And furthermore if we recognize that nothing takes place in this world, but it does so At God's permission and that God has a purpose in all things that there is no purposeless thing that goes on in this world.
Then we know that is God's purpose that the church must struggle throughout her existence against false teachers. Well, what gives those false teachers the the Absolute desire to press on in many cases even when refuted.
Remember the the what were called evil spirits sent from the Lord to to false prophets in Israel. To bring about God's judgment upon Israel. Those passages are there in the Bible. I don't know what mr. Hunt does with them.
I don't know what anyone does to them. They're there. God had a purpose in doing it and people all that's not fair. How could God do that? Remember folks as soon as an individual sins. The next breath they take is based on grace and mercy.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that God might bring glory to himself. And when those kings for example constantly rejected God's Prophets Demonstrated that they were concerned only about themselves. Concerned only about the self and grand is meant of their kingdom.
God could have struck them down right then. So what's wrong with bringing judicial punishment upon them that brings God even more glory than just simply striking them down. By deceiving them and bring punishment upon themselves and others in any way that God so chooses to do so.
Well, we just don't like that it seems to be the response from many people. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. We're gonna take our half-hour break and be right back. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith.
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More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils. They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.
This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language.
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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.
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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day. And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We're talking about Self-examination in the sense of looking at our faith.
Asking the question. Well, why does the Bible tell us to examine ourselves see whether when their faith? Why what is this test that is spoken of in 2nd Corinthians 13? Why does 1st John over and over and over again give us these means of knowing whether we are truly in him or whether we are a liar or not?
That is the question by the way, I have someone personal messaging me. I really can't respond to personal messages while I'm on the air. I think that's fairly obvious. Anyways Why are these things there?
Why does James give us all the discussion that James gives us in regards to? Recognizing true faith and false faith and the the marks of saving faith and all the rest that kind of stuff. Unless there is something that is extremely important about recognizing that there will be those who have a false faith.
There will be those who claim to be something that they are not. Seemingly. Seemingly from mr. Hunt's perspective. These are issues that we are not to address or that we are not to have any way of actually recognizing true faith versus false faith.
And why might that be? Well, I would suggest it is because the True saving faith that we talk about is the work of the Holy Spirit of God from mr Hunt's perspective since he denies God's freedom and election and he denies the work of the Spirit of God in bringing about Regeneration and giving the gift of faith.
He denies that faith is a gift then everybody has the same kind of faith and if There can be false faith then there can anyone who claims to have true faith that can become false faith. See, there's no there has never ever ever ever been a basis In a non-reformed soteriology for a belief in eternal security or the perseverance of the saints.
Mr. Hunt never had a rational basis for for believing in that point. If it was of your own free will to get into this. Then it's gonna be of your own free will to get out of it. I've never understood that and I've said about I've said about that.
I've talked about that before. That is a lie James. I have no idea what that's we do teach is an act of the spirit. I wasn't even referring to roman catholicism, sir uh. But if you want to talk about roman catholicism, that's that's so that's even so far down The the theological road there that i'm not even addressing that i'm talking about dave hunt and evangelicalism uh.
Regeneration done by baptism. Done by everyone including those individuals who will not persevere. Uh, that's not that's not the biblical teaching. So that's for sure. But um the I've commented many many times those who attempt To hold to eternal security while inserting free will simply contradict themselves.
If free will is so vitally important at the beginning. Then doesn't free will become? The very basis. Uh of the rest of their christian experience and hence it's their free will simply to walk away. Simply to walk away from that.
Uh that whole thing. How how can that be. I think that was brought out very very well by uh a question that was asked in a uh in a debate with uh. With a baptist minister we did quite some time ago. And the first question was asked of him was it was an excellent one and that was when we get to heaven and There is no evil in heaven.
Does that mean we've become less human? Because from your perspective, uh, then free will as you've defined it doesn't exist. This was being asked the other person. I wish that I had gotten an answer for that because the the person just simply said Ah, well, hey, uh, that's that's the stupidest question i've ever heard.
Let's go on from there. He didn't really answer it, but that is an excellent question if there's no evil in heaven. Uh, why is that do we become less human? Difficult thing to uh difficult thing to figure out for the person who uh tries to make this concept of free will.
The be all and end all of all things in that particular context eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one uh eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one perhaps there are some uh, uh anti lordship salvation anti.
Uh repentance is a part of uh salvation individuals out there who would like to uh, uh Address these particular subjects. Maybe you'd like to defend what mr. Hunt is saying. Uh, you would be welcome to give us a ring and to participate uh, of course.
Maybe there are those of you who attack. I can see Uh one person channel one person left for some reason he was here earlier Uh who was attacking the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. I would be glad to defend that because I believe that I believe that christ cannot fail.
To save his own. I do not believe that christ will ever fail In doing the will of the father and the will of the father is that he would save all those who have been given to him. There is no question of any of that.
That is not the question that i'm addressing today. The question i'm addressing today is what mechanism has god given to us? Whereby we might examine our own faith and hence grow In assurance, I believe assurance is something that the spirit of god gives to us.
And the spirit of god gives it to us on the basis of our obedience to his word his word has given us these means. Therefore when we use these means in scripture, we grow In our assurance. But I think it has been well said uh by one person that we need to have a uh a working way of recognizing the difference between uh eternal security.
And eternal presumption. Eternal presumption is a bad thing. Eternal presumption is a bad thing. Your apology apology is accepted. Uh, I understand that you misunderstood what I was referring to um. Just some people just mind let's find that very very strange.
Who's he talking to anyways. Well, he's talking to somebody in the chat channel. Um. Someone just asked. I just thought I might as well refer to it. Uh duke toma in the apologetics channel said christ won't fail, but maybe we will reject him.
Well, that means he fails because The entirety of our salvation is his work. The father said to the son in john chapter 6 It is my will that you lose none of those that I give you. And it is a human-based salvation system.
It says well christ will do his best but without our assistance. He cannot do the will of the father john chapter 6 verse 38. And verse 39 tremendous passage of scripture and oh we've Those of you who who understand the doctrines of grace you've heard every kind of possible uh explanation of these passages that Normally just border on the utterly Unbelievable other than believable.
I want to get to this before I forget it. Um, well, that's a good question. I I think uh, uh bloopy goomp, uh in channel um Had a good had a very good question. How do we reconcile this with the fact that as believers we grow more and more sensitive and aware of our sin?
That is the very work of the spirit in our hearts and making us more like christ. So that that is one of the evidences Of the work of the spirit of god is that we are concerned to examine ourselves. A person who is apathetic Has absolutely no basis uh for for claiming the promises of scripture.
In fact the person who's apathetic won't even be wanting to claim the promises of scripture. But the fact that we become more sensitive to our sin more sensitive to the attitudes that are ours Is the work of the holy spirit of god that is not what you find in the natural man.
Uh, that's that's uh really, uh but the problem is There needs to be a balance here because you know You just added something there that I would i'd have to disagree with. Therefore if we are looking to our obedience for assurance We're in big trouble, aren't we?
Well Not sure what you mean by that um if We are looking to ourselves as the source of our salvation. Yes, we're in big trouble. But when the word of god gives us these clear-cut tests And in essence tells us look If you Long to be obedient to christ if you long to Contemplate his law In the sense of understanding what his will for how we are to live our lives is.
And if you can recognize in your life the evidence that you are seeking to live in that way. That is a means of the demonstration Of the work of the spirit of god in our lives. And that's why I point out in first john when when john talks about our sin.
When john says the one who sins does not know god he uses that present tense over against. That for example when he talks about if any man sins we have an advocate with the father jesus christ the righteous.
He makes that specific kind of differentiation within the text playing off present tenses versus aristenses. And he communicates to us the fact that the one he's talking about who is continually sinning.
Is the one who is a liar? But he recognizes that there can be those who experience sin and every believer does. And That we have an advocate with a father when we experience that. But what is our attitude toward it?
Do we care about it? Or do we just laugh it off? When we care about it In fact, I would I would very strongly assert that If we hate our sin That is indeed one of the greatest evidences of grace. If it causes us to fly to christ into christ alone.
Because you see a natural man is not going to hate his sin turn from it and cling only to someone else. There may be religious systems that teach us to dislike acts of sin. But then to turn to non-biblical non-christian means of dealing with it.
If we hate sin. So that we fly from our sin to the savior. That is absolutely opposed to the natural man. That is absolutely opposed to what the natural man is going to do. These are important things to think about.
Just simply dismissing them and laughing them off as dave hunt does in his book is I think just Pastorally irresponsible. Pastorally irresponsible. Um, anyways, I wanted to read this. I happened across a a section that I thought was just as I was reading hunt's book.
Believe it or not. I found this for those of you who are geeks in the in the channel and uh in our listening audience. Um, I found this While scanning through Jonathan edwards book on religious affections on my handspring visor pro which now has 144 megs of storage space and uh about eight or nine or ten bible translations the hebrew the greek and Things like that anyways, um Pride goeth before destruction, which means my handspring visor will be run over by a truck today.
But uh. Anyways, I was actually scanning it literally on um, uh using teal doc on my uh on my handspring I ran across this section. Which you'll notice i'm not reading from my visor. I'm actually reading off of my screen because I I pulled it up with a different program.
But anyways, I found this very very interesting listen to this from uh from jonathan edwards. Those that thus insist on persons living by faith. When they have no experience and are in very bad frames are also very absurd in their notions of faith.
What they mean by faith is believing that they are in a good estate. Hence, they counted a dreadful sin for them to doubt of their state whatever frames they are in and whatever wicked things they do.
Because it is the great and heinous sin of unbelief. And he is the best man and puts most honor upon god that maintains his hope of his good estate. The most confidently and immovably when he has the least light or experience.
That is to say when he is in the worst and most wicked frame and way. Because for sooth that is a sign that he is strong in faith giving glory to god and against hope believes in hope. But what bible do they learn this notion of faith out of that?
It is a man's confidently believing that he is in a good estate. If this be faith the pharisees had faith in an eminent degree. Some of which christ teaches committed the unpardonable sin against the holy ghost.
The scripture represents faith as that by which men are brought into a good estate. And therefore cannot be the same thing as believing that they are already in a good estate. To suppose that faith consists in persons believing that they are in a good estate.
Is in effect the same thing as to suppose that faith consists in a person's believing that he has faith. Or believing that he believes. Now, of course edwards in his context is dealing. Hey. Someone just posted something in the channel.
They should not have posted Whatsoever concerning the handspring visor and uh as a result, I think they need to go. Bye. Bye for just a moment uh anyways, um. What he's saying in his context you remember what edwards constantly had to fight against.
He had to fight against um that uh. That that apathetic kind of christianity. Uh that basically said well I was sort of born into the church and I. You know, I was I was baptized as a child. And that's that's all I really need.
And i'm a member of the church and that's it. I don't need to have a living vital relationship with jesus christ. And there were some who went so far as to say look. As long as you are baptized as a child and you're in the church.
Then that's it you you shouldn't examine yourself. You shouldn't look to have a um a living faith in jesus christ. You shouldn't even and in fact to even even examine yourself. Is to show a lack of faith.
And edwards is saying wait, what kind of faith is that? Uh, what kind of faith are you are you are you talking about? That that boils down to Saying that faith consists in a person's believing that he has faith or believing that he believes.
And that doesn't accomplish anything. To examine one's faith is not to question the ability of christ. To examine one's faith is to be obedient to the word of god that gives us the means of recognizing The work of the spirit of god in our life and there must be a means of doing so because there is false teaching and false faith.
And so we look to the scriptures. Now evidently my preaching today has not been the kind of thing that gets people to call the phone. Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number.
I know I can see that there are people who disagree. Uh, however, there aren't very many people who want to talk to me about it. Let me see here. Silly brit would like a definition when na that's me for those of you who are wondering.
Which does not mean not available or not applicable though. Some people would think that that is a an appropriate Uh way of uh understanding na my nick is na 27 from the sl and 27th edition. But anyways, um Ha ha silly brit just got kicked out of channel when na refers To the channel does he mean prosopologian or apologetics since he has both open?
Um. Good question. Silly brit. Um It it really sort of would be both. It's a generic term sort of a a monadic hole. Uh, why don't you write a paper on what a monadic hole would be and uh, that will keep you busy and and you can stop Messing around with me and asking silly questions on in the Channel that's on the left of the screen rather than the channels on the right of the screen um, but anyways eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.
I Was going to discuss this last week and we couldn't get on on to the live streaming and I was uh, actually going to go over a a sort of a Spiritual self-diagnostic that I had given to my high school students Uh just a few weeks ago and um, it's sort of interesting.
It was only after um That uh Inability to get on the air last week that I read through I asked the students to write a little shortest few paragraphs About what they were going to do in light of the spiritual self-diagnostic that I had given to them.
And it was um, uh really of all the things that we had done, uh over the course of the year One of the most revealing things for me anyways in the responses that were given to me uh, the class took it very very seriously now, I Sad that it was toward the end of the class that I really came to fully understand um that High school students do everything in their power To make sure that the teacher doesn't realize he's actually getting through to them.
Um and uh, they do everything in their power to make sure that you um, Uh, you are are completely convinced that that they are ignoring every word that you say. Well, there were a couple exceptions, but most of them do them um, obviously what I said did get through to a lot of them and uh In fact, i'd say the vast majority.
And some of the most honest self-examination That I had seen came through in those In those papers that were given to me as a result. It was very encouraging in fact to me to see Uh the result at spiritual self-diagnostic and I was going to go over some of that last week.
I would I would prefer uh to hear from folks in uh in the audience, but uh, um. You know, uh, if you know, we'll do whatever we uh, whatever we need to do, uh to uh to deal with things. I have a question i'm looking in here revelation 19.
Ah, well, I would say uh that uh, the question was asked by revelation 22 19, uh, that uh, You know, in fact, this is I think this is a good good examination a good passage to look at. A roman catholic has just asked what do you do with revelation 20 to 19?
Well, I believe it of course um. And it's it is fascinating. Um, it says revelation 20 to 19 biblically proves you can lose your place in the kingdom. Well, does it well it says god will take away his part from the tree of life from the holy city.
Where it's written this book if you take away from the words of prophecy book of this prophecy now. Here's a perfect example, I think of the difference between a theocentric theology and an anthropocentric theology.
And I I think my roman catholic, uh questioner is not going to appreciate what uh, what i'm going to say here, but rome. Is the essence of anthropocentrism? What is what am I saying? Rome is the absolute, uh.
And then I see that now we just had someone else and I don't know what duke tomah's background is. But he just quoted philippians 2 12. Whenever you see and i'm gonna get back to revelation 20 to saying whenever you see anyone.
Quote revelate philippians 2 12 without quoting Philippians 2 13, you know, they've never looked at the passage. Because you see philippians 2 12 Says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. That's half a sentence the rest of the sentence is.
For it is god who is at work within you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure. Why is the fear and trembling? Because it's god who is at work within us. And it's not work for your salvation.
It's work out the salvation that god gives to you. So whenever I see someone quote philippians 2 12 without philippians 2 13, I just automatically just I I sort of like mummy goon. I I roll my eyes. I roll mummy goon's eyes and and just go.
Read the context. The context does not substantiate that kind of use Of the passage, but we'll get back to revelation 22 19. Rome is the essence of anthropocentrism. Why do I say that because of her sacramentalism?
Rome's sacramentalism Uh is the very essence of human religion. Why do I say that because it not only is founded upon the unbiblical notion of the autonomous will of man. Look at the council of trent.
You can see they're very very strong in having to affirm that but It provides through its sacramentalism The means for man By his actions to control the grace of god Man by his actions in In working the sacraments going to mass going to confession doing dependences using these alleged channels of grace man controls the grace of god and that's why there is no doctrine of The perseverance of the saints or eternal security in roman catholicism.
Because fundamentally it comes down to whether man Will use the sacraments so as to gain the grace of god god's grace becomes this substance that is channeled through these sacraments and that's why The reformed understanding the biblical proclamation of the perfection of the saviorhood of christ.
That's why for example the the fact that the the reformers proclaimed a finished sacrifice is so vociferously attacked in roman catholicism because roman catholicism does not have a finished sacrifice.
You can't have a finished sacrifice even the mass itself becomes something that you go to over and over and over and over again and yet Aquinas in the chat channel. Does the mass perfect anyone? You'll have to answer that honestly.
Does the mass perfect anyone. Is there any person? Who comes before the roman catholic mass? And is perfected by appearing before that mass. You know the answer to that, you know. The answer to this statement as well that there can be many persons Who have appeared before the mass which is allegedly the very same sacrifice of christ who will end up in hell.
If that is true, then you can't be saying that i'm wrong in what i'm saying. Because if the very sacrifice of christ can be made dependent upon a sacramental distribution of its graces Then what i'm saying is exactly right.
No. No. Are you saying that? I'm saying no. No. No, what is what's what's the the answer? Why don't you call in if you want to have this back and forth? Uh, you call in uh. You know or That I don't know what no i'm all i'm seeing is aquinas saying no, no, no, no, no.
So you're saying Is what you're saying then that a person. If you're saying no, my first question was Is a person perfected by attending mass and you're saying no. Are you now saying that a person can attend mass and every single person who attends mass is going to end up in heaven?
Is that what you're saying? Of course, you're not saying that. So you've just proven my point if the mass does not perfect. It's not the same sacrifice of jesus christ hebrews chapter 10 tells us by one sacrifice.
He let's see no one is perfected exactly. Well, let me in fact i'll do this for you in channel nas hebrew 10 14. Okay. Let's see if Four by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
There it is. Well, no one is perfected. Okay. I understand exactly what you're saying. And there you've made my point. Because biblically we are. There's the issue. There's the issue. We need to take our break.
Invite you to participate eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one. Warren and I will start singing together a duet after the break if there's no one on the phone warren warm up that voice we're gonna get ready to go and We'll be right back.
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The potter's freedom a defense of the reformation and a rebuttal to norman geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore.
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Yes, warren is warming up in the other room. I can hear it now all the glass is breaking in this office and Anyways, we've got silly brit posting the phone number in multiple colors almost looks christmassy in there and Given that it's a hundred and who knows how many degrees in here?
Oh, that's an ugly green. I've always hated that green that lime green type thing. It just looks disgusting. Anyways, uh revelation chapter 22 Was raised and I went off on a discussion of the man-centeredness of romanism when you look at passages like this, and and I think this is an important we can go ahead and Any once you believe that God convinces people of wrong beliefs dot dot dot.
This is a problem when you're reading stuff like this because people don't type very fast, you know, dude. How can you rule out the possibility that that that is happening to you? Oh Okay, someone asked that you're being so convinced.
That's simple by reference to God's revelation in his word that's how you know whether what you believe is true or not. The Spirit of God is the one who draws us to obedience to the Word of God anyways back to Revelation chapter 22 when you look at passages like this and You hear people say ah see look see it says right here.
It says God will take away his part from the tree of life. So he must have been a believer and so. The result of that is what? Well that true believers Who have been given by the Father to the Son? Who Christ has died to perfect the spirit and dwells to guide and lead?
Could take away from the words the book of this prophecy that they could be so evil and have so little regard for God's truth that they could do this and Therefore the work of the Father in decreeing their salvation and the Son in obtaining their salvation the spirit and applying that salvation.
Can all be thrown away by who? By the creature. That's man-centeredness. That's anthro Pocentrism. Well, what if you accept all the theocentric teaching of the Bible and you believe the Bible's consistent with itself?
Well, then what would you have to say about a person? Who takes away from the book of this prophecy the words the book of this prophecy are they one of Christ's sheep? Do they hear his voice? Are they united with Christ the wrath of God has no place in them.
Well, of course not of course not. Just saw a personal message. I have Idea what its relevant is relevance is other than to see online or something. I don't see anything online. Nothing's blinking in there.
Yes, well, it's not blinking. I need to see blinking lights. We need blinking lights. We have. You know, we really need a little more techno stuff here. Okay, he is online. And so what you're telling me rich is I shouldn't make any more jokes about in-and-out burger.
Is that what is that what you're telling me? Okay. All right. I'm supposed to no more. Nope. Yes. No mate. Thank You very much appreciate the clear guidance that is being given to me. All right. We're supposed to take to take the call maybe take the call or no not, okay, I'll take the call.
Stop it silly Brit. You've posted the number 47 ,000 times it's and in every color possibly known. Anyways, let's go ahead and take our first phone caller who evidently does not want to hear Warren and I singing so.
And I'm not supposed to say anything more about in-and-out burger because you've moved on to corporate America. Oh, so you're working two jobs. Yeah.
I'm working. Usually the cleanup over at in-and-out burger like. And I got a job at Target where I'm gonna work once or twice. But it's gonna be graveyard shift. Oh.
Cool. Okay. Well anyways, yeah, I got a question, but it's off topic. Okay. Hold on a second. Somebody kick ban CDS. Okay, just get him out of there. He's he's flooding the channel with with the phone number and.
We just need to you know, what I would anyways, but now before you do that, I don't know if you've been watching. Let me see. Are you over in apologetics too? Or are you just not one of those?
Multitasking type people. No, I can be in there. But since I'm on the phone with you, I can't be online at the same time.
Oh, I'm sorry. You're on dial-up. I'm Sorry, that's a that's a sad thing. Some of us don't do that. Anyways, I Before you take us totally off topic we have I just have to mention something here. It's fascinating to notice That we have two people in channel right now.
And this is the other person I mentioned before we have Arminius and that's his Nick and he is an Arminian and he's been in channel for about a week and and it's been amazing to watch the the confluence when the Roman Catholic comes in between Arminius and Aquinas because and.
And this is gonna make some Arminians upset but it shouldn't on the issue of grace and faith and the will the Arminian and the Roman Catholic are hand-in-hand and It's fascinating to watch as they're going away to me.
He doesn't he doesn't have a share to lose anyways. Well, that's that's similar to what we have In. What is that? Passage. Trying to remember what it is the illustration I've used When we I've talked about Michael Jordan before what is that passage that I use that on.
I can't remember what it is. But anyways, it's fascinating to see the confluence of these two arguing for the exact same points. Arminian ism is philosophical non papalistic Roman Catholicism When it comes to the nature of grace and will of man, that's what it is fascinating absolutely fascinating anyways Johnny I went and put you on the air and then then had to make a comment about that.
Go ahead.
Well, you know what I did. Want to comment one thing though, I guess in a formal question and. You you're friends with huh?
Yes, we actually we actually did hear you when you called in once. I've you've called in more than once though. Haven't you? Oh, I've called.
More than a dozen times over the past six years. I Called every once every three or four months or so. They don't allow me to call as often as I do your show.
Oh, yeah, well, you know, there's there's a reason for that they Hank has never had to threaten to sing to get phone callers. So.
But one of the things that I have talked to Hank about in the past and remember I've only been reformed for about a year. And a half now.
Yes, you remember my discussion of the cage stage last week. No other week before that, okay, you need to listen to the arcade, okay.
One of the things though is when I when I spoke to Hank And he felt that he doesn't Like the labels and since he's good friends with dr. Geisler, I guess dr. Geisler is thinking a lot. Uh-huh, and when I spoke with dr. Geisler, I met him once over at Biola when he came to do a lecture on Moanism and He told me that in many ways James Arminian himself was very reformed because he believed.
He told me that he believed in eternal security to the reform doctrines of grace. The five points of Calvinism. Is in how do we how are we to understand the fact that among Arminians? We have this diversity of view and how the term Arminian has become such dr Geisler or many of the people will don't agree with the terminology and yet they're in essence holding the same view.
Well a couple things first of all Arminius was considerably more reformed than most Arminians as far as he he came out of a reformed tradition and so That that is true. Secondly, however, dr. Geisler His main problem is he redefined the key terms in the discussion?
And that's why I documented the potter's freedom is that he when you when you say that you believe in Unconditional election, but it's only unconditional from God's perspective. It's conditional man's perspective.
You're not using that term in a meaningful fashion. First of all, and you're not using it in a historical fashion. That's that's that's important. The same thing with the limited atonement and irresistible grace.
Grace is irresistible only on the willing. I mean, come on. That's this is utilization of terms. That absolutely Makes them useless in the discussion. That was the main problem there the positions that he defended were anti-reform positions and are in the classical terminology Arminian positions as Arminian ism developed as a system as there were Arminian theologians in the 16th 17th centuries.
When you look at what they wrote the positions that Geisler takes on most of the things the same things that they said except he also is inconsistent in holding to substitutionary atonement when classical Arminian theology denied substitutionary atonement.
Now, why has it become a dirty word? I would suggest Partially first of all, there are people today who use the term of themselves and they do so proudly but many of them have ended up going into such things as Open theism and as a result many people who recognize that open theism is a is a blatant heresy.
Do not want to be associated with those who would say yes, I'm an Arminian and I believe in open theism so I think there's Somewhat of a I think that plays into it a little bit and by the way, I would like to suggest that open theism is The consistent logical outcome of what Arminian ism is really all about what it's trying to accomplish and I just think that They're unwilling to go that far those who who do.
I'm not suggesting anyone become an open theist. But I don't see how logically once you make the free will the autonomous will the creature The central aspect of your theology that you can avoid falling into that pit and I I made that step that that statement.
Before the term open theism became popular in dealing with Clark Pinnock In the appendix to a god-sovereign grace that I wrote back and I don't know I forget how long ago it was now. But came out in 1990 1991.
So that's that's been a criticism. I've had for a very very long time. At least I've been consistent and what I've said about that but I also think that there's there's a there's a level of not wanting to utilize labels So as to fit into our post-modern society.
What I mean by that is well if I accept a label that says I believe X Y or Z then I can't really be as as Loving and accepting and non-judgmental as the world would like me to be and I think that's a part of it as well.
I think there's a an unwillingness to clearly identify Identify the position that a person is espousing So as to be able to have allegedly a broader ministry or something along those lines, let's let's face it Johnny.
There's all sorts of doors that are closed to me I mean, can you imagine a Calvary Chapel in Southern California inviting me to come speak? It's just just ain't gonna happen so.
That's interesting that you say that though because I've been to.
Yeah, well not and I haven't spoken to the Calvary Chapel in Southern, California. But after the debate with with George Bryson who heads up church planning and missions for Calvary Chapel. There are many Calvary chapels, especially in that area where it's known that simply would not would not be open to having me speak there on any subject or.
And this has happened sort of it. It didn't really happen. There's one situation where we only afterwards found out that we They would have appreciated if we hadn't brought some of my reform materials with us, but there would be a you know, let's say.
Something on mormonism came up and they recognized that the book that I've written on mormonism was good. But could you avoid talking about that stuff and I I can't put myself in that kind of position.
Well, why is it that these men and one of the Calvary chapels that I went to in Montebello. They they sell books by J .I. Packer and John MacArthur. I just don't this way myself. They'll still Sell the books by by some of the most staunch that they were.
They were selling a book by Jonathan Edwards.
Well, it's it's quite possible that they have not read the book. I mean, let's let's be honest with ourselves. There's um, I I know of individuals who Uh are fairly well known who Have positions of leadership and who will make statements concerning these issues.
When if you sit down and say have you ever actually read? John, calvin. We've ever actually read Jonathan edwards. Have you ever actually read anything by francis turretin or bb warfield and they'll admit they have not.
Uh, and yet they will they will make uh comments Concerning uh These issues as if they have done the the the research and and they haven't and so I I you know a lot of those names, you know, they'll they'll hear a someone like uh sproll on the radio talking about Apologetics or something like that.
Go man. That's that's really good. That's really great. And oh, here's a book by him. Let's go ahead and and and make it available um. And until someone, you know buys and goes, uh, do you do you know what he's talking about here?
Uh, you know that that happens a lot a lot of folks even especially in church bookstores will have books. They really don't know what it's all about.
That sounds like a well, I wanted to ask you a question about the atonement. Uh, yeah, okay. How much time do I got uh I need to phrase the question so that you can really get at it. Um, it all all depends on uh,.
On what the question is, okay. Uh, I remember in the debate that you had against roberts and janice on uh, the mass transubstantiation. You were talking about how? When uh, he was quoting from your book.
I think it was the fatal flaw, right? And uh, he was saying that you had said apply the grace.
No, I I had the argument that I had made in the book is that christ's work as high priest Is not a supplementary work that adds to the atonement. But it is merely the presentation of that work before the father.
It is not something that uh is is separate from it is not something that is An additional element that brings in something outside of the work of the atonement Itself especially because he is seated at the right hand of the father unlike the high priest who uh.
There was no place to sit in the holy place because his work was never done. Christ's work is finished and that's the whole point Uh that the book of hebrews is making and if you try to make his intercessory work where he is representing us before the father Uh some separate thing and then you of necessity Create an imperfection in the atonement that is contradicted by the text of the book of hebrews itself.
He not only by misciting the book and and avoiding Uh the context by saying well, I was saying faith wasn't necessary and all the rest of that stuff Uh was in essence attempting to turn the debate from a focus upon the mass and transubstantiation to something else.
I was trying to understand more about this. Uh where I was reading john owen and he was talking this is uh, john owen where he says that That the sacrifice or the the oblation priestly work Is finished in heaven, I guess at the ascension or something like that.
Well that he continues, uh that he is continues today as our high priest uh, not in the repetitive offering of sacrifices, but in the fact that because he is in the presence of the father he Represents us before the father as hebrews chapter 9 says.
Actually owen is very clear on the very same point. That's uh that I just made uh, and that is you cannot divide that work up and make the one work supplement supplementary uh to the other. He actually uh.
Makes that very kind of uh assertion as well, so is the heavenly tabernacle. Jesus is the heavenly.
Tabernacle jesus christ himself. No. Why I the heavenly tabernacle, uh is in the book of hebrews anyways is. Is what the earthly tabernacle represented? And uh that. It I i'm not sure what you mean is is that jesus?
It says he entered into it not that he is it. I'm not following you.
Well, because the earthly tabernacle represented the heavenly one. Uh is the heavenly. I guess the hell that the earthly one represented. Or well.
I I get I don't understand how he could be the tabernacle. But I don't think it's a it's a physical thing in the sense of of that. It's simply the the fact that the heavenly reality Uh, the the point of the book of hebrews is that the the earthly tabernacle was merely a shadow of the reality that would be in christ, it's it's not that that means that there is a a uh a bigger Brighter version, uh in in heaven someplace.
That's a physical structure or something like that. It's just that all of these signs and uh, And shadows and and images in the old covenant were meant to point to the greater fulfillment Uh in the person of christ.
So no, I I would not say that christ is.
The heavenly tabernacle. No, but when exactly is uh christ. A work as a high priest finished is it when he sits down or is or is on? I mean i'm not talking within the context of transubstantiation.
I'm, not sure what you what you mean by finished. I guess you could say that at at the uh Ushering in of the eternal state when when the last of the elect has been gathered uh, and uh, we are in the presence of god, uh, first corinthians 15 uh would would picture some sort of uh, Of a completion of that kind of work.
Uh at the ushering in of the eternal state.
I'm saying that this mediator ship as he intercedes for easterly office.
No intercession is uh is absolutely necessarily a part of the uh, the work of the high priest.
So no, it is not some separate uh, so his his work of atonement as a high priest is finished on the cross. But his work as priest Is a continuous right? Well when you see christ in the book of revelation, he is a lamb standing as if slain.
Uh, that is a that is a natural the very fact that he is in the presence of the father represents that finished sacrifice. There can be nothing added to that which is where romanism falls apart and where everything else falls apart and trying to add to uh that that uh that finished work, uh, by the way, I just wanted to notice, uh, our mr Arminius and channel is uh, though early earlier today.
Was asking many questions about church history that he certainly seemingly had not studied. Now all of a sudden has become an expert on augustine and uh, Uh has just told us that there was universal agreement on free will.
Uh interestingly enough, uh Augustine's view on free will if you read his section on that is very clear. In the limitation thereof and now he's trying to bring up hebrews chapter 10 verses 26 through 29.
Which I would assume is meant to communicate some sort of Attack upon eternal security. It does not since obviously, uh, the one who does these things is not a person Uh who has been perfected by the sacrifice of christ in hebrews 10 14 and uh.
If he tries to go to verse 29 and say that this is a person who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant that actually is sanctification of christ not of the Person who has done this this is an apostate who's gone back to judaism.
Uh really ought to read that section a little bit closer there. Mr. Arminius, uh again, uh, but anyways, uh,. That's the same individual who was defending dave hunt's uh translation quote-unquote of facts 1348 is disposed to eternal life, too.
So there is no argument that is not beyond the pale of being used. Anyways, johnny, thank you very much for your phone call today and don't work too hard.
All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks for calling. God bless.
All righty. Well, I uh have I have heard back from um, Uh steve camp and steve is more than than willing uh to Engage, uh the program that i'd like to do. I just thought i'd mention this really quickly.
Uh, I want to do a program with Um steve camp in regards to the 20th anniversary of the death of of keith green and uh Keith green's music has always meant a tremendous amount to me and uh, of course, uh Steve knew keith green and uh, if you could bring up, uh, My computer a little bit behind me here in just a second.
Uh, there are some just tremendous songs that keith sang and what i'm hoping to do is to have steve on and have him on Live and i'll bet you anything. It won't be overly difficult to uh, Uh to get individuals to go ahead and call him uh when uh when keith or when steve camp Uh would be on to take your phone calls, but uh, that's what we're looking forward to doing.
Hopefully i'd like to try to do it next week if we can we will uh, we will see but uh, 20 years ago july 28th uh is when uh Keith green passed away. And so hopefully that'll be the program we have go ahead and bring it up.
I know that it's uh, They were coming to the end here ran out of time. But uh, hopefully it was a program that was useful to you. And uh lots of interaction with uh with folks here and Arminius just does not get it, but that's okay.
We've seen that over and over again already. We'll be back again next week. And if we don't have steve camp, we'll have somebody else. See you then. The dividing line has been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries.
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