December 15, 2016 Show with Tim Chaffey & K. Marie Adams on “Noah: Man of Destiny”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of December 2016.

And God willing, we are going to be joined by Tim Chaffee, author, apologist and blogger at Midwestapologetics .org and current content manager for The Ark Encounter, as well as his co-author, Kay Marie Adams, author, graphic designer and volunteer for several ministries dedicated to rescuing girls from modern-day slavery, who are both going to discuss, God willing, Noah, Man of Destiny.

But we have not yet received a phone call from them, so hopefully that will happen within the next few minutes or hopefully within the next few seconds. And that may be them now. And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Tim Chaffee and Kay Marie Adams.

Hello. Hello, how are you? Okay, yeah, we almost were thinking that you were not going to be joining us today.

Oh, yeah, I think we had our signal dropped. We thought you were going to be calling us.

Great. Well, I already introduced where you two are from. And before I go any further, I'd like to introduce both of you to Charlie Liebert, who is my co-host today. Charlie Liebert is a Christian apologist and founder of 6daycreation .com.

He is the author of two books with Christian themes. The first is Always Be Ready to Give an Answer, which teaches a Christian evangelism strategy that gets to witnessing every time an unbeliever asks you a question.

And his second book is Answers for the Hope that is in You, provides answers to over 100 questions that Christians are commonly asked by families and friends, and they can both be found on the web at yourchristiananswers .com, yourchristiananswers .com.

And his third book is going to be published next year titled Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, which shows that science proves evolution is impossible. But it's my honor and pleasure to welcome you back as my co-host, Charlie Liebert.

Thank you, Chris. It's great to be here.

And keep speaking as I had your mic off, I think.

It's great to be here. I really enjoy working with you in these shows.

Yeah, sorry about that. I had you muted for a second there. But first of all, before we even get into the theme of Noah, Man of Destiny, Tim, let's start with you and find out about your personal testimony of salvation, the religious background of your upbringing, if any, and how you came to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Sure.

Yeah, that seems to be the case, in my experience, when I meet and speak with a lot of folks who were raised from infancy in Christian homes, especially if they had very godly parents and perhaps even had a father who was a pastor.

But when you are raised from infancy and God—now, He doesn't always do this, obviously. He doesn't always spare the children of believers from wandering into scandalous sin, but that very often does not happen, meaning that God very often does prevent the children of believers from doing that.

And so, in cases like that, there can be no identifiable radical change of opinion or mind or heart that one can remember because they just always remember loving Jesus and following Him.

Right. And so my testimony—.

Amen. And I don't know if there is something you could do to—you sounded a little bit muffled there. I'm not sure what kind of phone line you're using, but anything you can do to speak closer to the microphone or the mouthpiece or whatever you have there would be appreciated.

Okay. Does that sound better like this? Yeah, that sounds better. And we have K. Marie Adams. Tell us about yourself as well.

Yeah. Well, in the presence of the Lord when I was five, my mom took me to a Bible study fellowship class, and I remember them going over the curriculum and showing images of Jesus dying on the cross and just going, oh, that makes sense.

And so from there, just God's increased my walk with Him and been faithful to me every single year to continue to have me growing closer.

The Ark Encounter, Midwest Apologetics, and the Book's Origins

Okay. Great. Well, Tim, tell us a little bit about MidwestApologetics .org where you're blogging.

Yeah. It's a ministry that I started back in 2005 before I ever came on board with Answers in Genesis. And I used it to speaking throughout Wisconsin where I was living at the time, and I try to maintain it and update it as regularly as I can.

And obviously, we want to know more about what the Ark Encounter is.

Yeah. The Ark Encounter, how long do we want to spend on that? Because we could talk.

All day about it. Well, you could give as much of a detailed description as you'd like.

All right. Well, both K. Marie and I had the opportunity. And of course, the writing.

And do you have like tour guides and people who are knowledgeable of the Bible who tell the tourists or the visitors all about the story? Or do you have theatrical performances of the Noah story? Or how does that work?

Tim, I've been to the Creation Museum, and I know what the exhibits there are, which are quite spectacular. Are these the same type of exhibits in terms of what the.

Animatronics and things like that? Yeah, but they're even updated a little more. For example, we have an animatronic Noah who looks much more lifelike.

And I heard that there's a rabbit that has sunglasses and plays the drums. Or no, that's a commercial. I'm thinking of a battery commercial. I'm sorry.

I didn't remember that exhibit.

Well, I'm sure that we will be doing more programs featuring discussions about this exhibit. And I am hoping and praying that the Lord enables me eventually to get there myself. I've never been there, nor have I ever been to...

It's in Kentucky, correct? Yes. I have never been to Kentucky yet, but hopefully I will be able to get there at some point. Now, it was fascinating to me, and I'm going to ask Kay Marie Adams to discover, while reading up on your biography, your bio description that's on the internet, that you have been involved or dedicated to rescuing young girls from modern-day slavery.

We can't obviously let that slip by without giving more details to our listeners about that.

Well, it's not as dramatic as it sounds. I haven't actually gone into a location and rescued a girl from there, but I've been closely partnered with a couple of different organizations and done either group design work for them, helping them with fundraising, praying with them.

So, just a lot of... A variety of ways to help, but there's so much more that needs to be done. But yeah, that's definitely where my heart beat is.

Well, I would certainly like to, at some point, interview somebody with one of those ministries that you work with, if they have a theologically sound background, and so on. I would love to get them on the program.

Sure. I'd love to connect you with them.

And I'm going to give our email address. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, if anyone would like to join us on the air with a question. Comcast. Chrisarnson at gmail .com and chrisarnson at comcast .com.

My co-host was reminding me that I have a Comcast email address, but he probably doesn't know that my Gmail account was reactivated.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that yet, Chris.

Yeah. Google had disabled my Gmail account because of going over their quota with outgoing emails promoting some upcoming events that Iron Sharpens Iron is involved in. So they slapped me on the wrist and disabled me from sending emails for three days, which was, I thought, excessive.

But you can use that email address again. Chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. You can also use our new email address, chrisarnson at comcast .net, which we are keeping active, chrisarnson at comcast .net.

But how did you two get so fascinated by the Noah story, the flood story, that you both sought out to write this book, Noah Man of Destiny. Perhaps even before I ask that, or before you answer that, perhaps you two can explain how you started cooperating in writing projects.

I'm sorry, I missed that. I didn't hear what you said, K. Marie.

Oh, I was teasing you.

Oh, and are our guests still on the air? That is odd. I've heard some loud noise, and sure enough, we're disconnected. Well, I'm going to have to hang up, and hopefully they'll call back. And in the meantime, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And I think we have our guests back. That was odd. We heard a loud crashing noise, and then dead silence. Yes, and anything that you could do to, I don't know, what you could do to make your voices a little bit more clear?

They're kind of muffled, but if you could, you can go ahead with your explanation on how you and K. Marie got to meet and cooperate.

Yeah, I don't know about this connection. I did that. I was skilled in writing. I helped with that. I didn't want to try to presume to know how a female's mind works, so I thought it would be good to bring on...

By the way, Tim, I don't know if you believe in modern-day miracles, but if you ever figure out how a woman's mind works, that would be one of them.

It took him two hours to get into her head. I've been trying for 20 years.

Well, I'm glad that your wife has a sense of humor at a time like that, to hear her joke like that. And by the way, your voice has sounded 100 better now, for what it's worth.

Okay, good.

And we already have a couple of listeners that have written questions for you. And let's see, we are going to... By the way, let me repeat our email address, if anybody would like to join them on the air with a question, it is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have a listener in Slovenia, which is the homeland of our new First Lady. Joe in Slovenia says,. In 1 Peter 3 .21, we read,. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The key word in this section seems to be the Greek antituban, and it means copy, type, corresponding to, a thing resembling another, its counterpart, etc. It is what the NIV translates as symbolizes, the NASB as corresponding to that, and the KJV as like figure.

Baptism then is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is, of what is it a type, or baptism corresponds to what, if the floodwaters of the ark were both, how does Brother Tim see this, and how does his view play out in his book, Noah, Man of Destiny?

Well, that's a pretty deep question involving original languages and stuff, but I don't know if you have a comment or an answer to that, Tim?

Yeah, it's not Peter's writing about it, it's something...

Yeah, we'll have to cover that when we perhaps do a program on baptismal regeneration or something like that, because I know that a lot of folks who believe in baptismal regeneration, or that baptism is necessary for salvation, they will often refer to this text, and that's why there seems to be a controversy regarding the wording of it.

But thank you very much, Joe, in Slovenia, and we also thank you for providing us with an American address, because we are going to send your daughter in the United States a free copy of the book that we are discussing today, by our guests, Tim Chaffee and K. Marie Adams, Noah, Man of Destiny.

And if you enjoy that book, please let us know, send us an email, and we'd love to hear back from you on that. Keep your eye open for a package from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com, and we look forward to hearing from you.

This story of Noah as a young man, I'm assuming this is a novel that is going to involve a lot of extra-biblical creativity or artistic license, as they say, am I correct?

Yeah, that's correct.

And as Bible-believing Christians, as those who are from conservative evangelical backgrounds, who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and so forth, has this created any controversy over your brethren in Christ, who think that that is not something we should dabble in?

You know, there are some Christians who might think that we should not speculate on such things that are not recorded for us in the inerrancy, in the inerrant Word of God. What are your thoughts on that, and have you had any kind of conflict?

Depends on that, what would this man like? They're not necessarily, if you ask people, what was Noah's, people would say, well, he went around preaching everywhere. Well, according to Bill Cosby, he said that.

Right.

That come up, and to help explain the decision that we made, and why we go back to Scripture, confronted by a nation, you can look at Jesus all the time when we read the Bible, and this is a patristic license.

I'd like to make a comment on that to follow up. I got a copy of the book about a week ago, and I was a little skeptical at the beginning, and then I read the back section, just referred to the 40 pages, and I got kind of excited about reading it, and I've only read through chapter 4, but I have to say that using that as a, I would say, as a beginning for a reader that believes the Bible was very helpful, because now you understand what you're trying to accomplish, and I'll be honest, the first four chapters, I was kind of excited about reading it.

Now, my wife has also read chapter 1, and she says she can't wait to get it back.

Oh, good. Yeah, and that really is our goal, because we also recognize that Noah, we're related to him, and we're going to see him one day in glory. So, not to take away anything, any of the details that Scripture is very clear about with his life, we want to keep those, but then there are a lot of spaces where there's just nothing there, and so that's what we kind of fill in, and we've tried to do it respectfully with someone that we know that we're going to meet in glory.

I don't want to have to make a huge apology to him, so I'll let Tim take the blame for that.

I was also very glad to see how you handled the issue with canopy theory or no canopy, because that's something that Ken Hamm and I disagree on completely.

Why don't you explain that?

I was glad to see that you handled it. I believe the canopy is, in fact, scientifically viable. I don't have a lot of science behind it, but I have certain evidences that I would point to, the giantism in the fossil record, the great longevity, all of that would be in a hyperbaric condition, and that's what the canopy would have provided.

So, Ken and I argued this one quite a bit, and we don't agree, but I'm glad to see the way you handled it, because you handled it as either or, or take your pick, or, you know, you didn't make a definitive statement, and I appreciate that a lot.

Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, that's one of the, in the back of the book, you know, we have, I think it's in chapter four, there's a...

Exactly. Great.

Well, when we come back from the break, I would like you, Tim, and of course, Charlie, you could chime in and be more detailed with an explanation on those two views regarding the canopy model, if you could.

Then we are going to our first break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guests, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

We do have a listener in Kannapolis, North Carolina, who's waiting to join us, and a couple of other folks. So, Casey, you're up next, when we come back from the break. Casey in Kannapolis, North Carolina, after, of course, we have Tim and Kay Marie and Charlie discuss a little bit about the canopy model.

But don't go away, we are going to be right back after these messages on the topic that we have today, Noah, Man of Destiny, so don't go away. Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Are you a Christian looking to strengthen your faith and finances?

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So listen definitely between 12 noon and 1 p .m. Eastern time on wlie540am .com. Well, if you just tuned us in, our guests today are Tim Chaffee, author, apologist, blogger at midwestapologetics .org, and content manager for The Arc Encounter, and Kay Marie Adams, author, graphic designer, and volunteer for several ministries dedicated to rescuing young girls from modern-day slavery.

They're discussing their book that they've written together, a novel called Noah, Man of Destiny, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before I go to Casey in Kannapolis, North Carolina, Tim and Kay Marie and Charlie, if you could explain a little bit about this controversy with the canopy theory or the canopy model, if you could explain exactly in detail what that is and why there is a difference of opinion about it.

Yeah, this Chris is an area of science,.

And science is always interpretive, and Christians sometimes won't agree on science, that's a reality, that's the nature of science itself. However, we all agree on the scripture, so we know certain things.

For example, the question that the canopy theory raises basically is, was there rain before the flood or not? And depending on which one you want to accept, you say, yes there was, or you say if the canopy would say no there wasn't.

But scripture doesn't tell us, so it is a matter of science, it's a matter of interpretation. So it comes down to which one of those scientific models would you like to use, and then you imply that back to the pre-flood world, and you can have rain or not, scripture doesn't tell us, so we don't know, and science will change.

And Tim?

Yeah, the canopy model is the idea that there is a water or vapor or ice canopy above the earth, firmament or an expanse in the midst of the waters, and that it divides the waters from the waters. So the idea that water above the water on the earth, so this must be a reference to a canopy of some sort, that's one of the verses used for it, and then also in Genesis 2 -5, it speaks about how God did not cause it to rain on the earth yet, of course that's referring to before days, or the condition on day six right before he made man, so this is where it's questionable that that's before man comes along, but one of the reasons I'm not sold on the canopy model is because I don't think that scripture, I see it as a possible way to understand that passage, but the expanse or the firmament is also the place where God put this 1 -14 -19 talk about, not only our atmosphere, but it seems like it is also including outer space.

It does come down to how do we understand and interpret those passages, and I think both either side should, you know, undermining scriptures and that's views and get pretty upset with it with somebody who disagrees.

Really? I've never experienced that.

Oh please.

I've heard about it.

We have Casey in Kannapolis, North Carolina. How can a robust biblical understanding of Noah help us combat racism in our society today? How can it help destroy the evolutionary views that support racism also?

Tim and Kay Marie?

Yeah, so the second part of the question was how does...

How can it help destroy the evolutionary views that support racism?

Oh yeah, well, it said, well, Noah's the father of the Hebrew people. I said, well, yeah, he is. He's the father of all people. We all go back to Noah. You might have his wife, so I think it's true when it comes to that he was to be, yeah, really a biblical ancestor than others, and Aborigines were hunted down and slaughtered, and then the evolutionary worldview being put into worldview.

Yeah, it's ironic that all of these liberals will laugh and they will chuckle, and they will mock when they hear of a, like a, for instance, a political candidate that says that he does not believe or she does not believe in evolution, and yet it's amazing to me.

It actually frustrates me when sometimes there are conservatives sitting there who are a part of that conversation when they do not bring up to these liberals the full title for Darwin's book, The Origin of the Species, which is on the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life, and most people don't even know that, and liberals should be informed of this, that they are basing this concept that they think every intelligent person should believe in, it's all based on the racist notions of a bigot.

Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, in many ways that's true.

And anything further that you'd like to add, either Charlie or K. Marie on that question from Kannapolis, North Carolina, about racism and Noah and so on, and how the story of helped to diminish the concept of racism.

Of course, men are always going to be sinners until the final triumphant return of Christ, and we are in glory with him for eternity, so nothing is going to automatically stamp out or erase racism, but there are things that we can at least say to combat these notions.

In the early days after Darwin wrote The Origin of the Species, one of the things that happened is the Europeans, and they actually call this white man's burden, the Europeans felt that because the Africans were so devolved or so further back from the evolutionary process that the white man's responsibility was to rescue them out of their culture and bring them into European culture, and that alone itself sets the stage for things like Nazism.

Yes, and it was clear that Hitler was a believer in evolution, as were the Nazis and so on, and now obviously we don't want to make the accusation that all people who are believing in that very false system are racist or neo-Nazis of some kind, but it just, they should be aware of the roots of their ideas.

And I think it would be fair to point out as well that some Christians, professing Christians, have tried to use the Bible to support racist ideas.

Oh yeah, like the Curse of Ham would be some kind of an explanation of, from a...

I mean, even that's a misnomer, there's no such thing as a Curse of Ham.

Right, right.

Cursed Canaan, the Ham's son. But yeah, that's right, people use certain things like that and try to support racist ideas, but there's nothing in Scripture.

Yeah, and so this novel that you've written, it takes you up until what point in Noah's life, in regard to the Ark and so on?

For this first novel, it is far before the Ark. Noah's a young man, he's kind of off on his first adventure, just leaving home, and kind of figuring out what he wants to do in life, and what his purpose is.

And so then he gets to meet his future wife in this novel, and it just kind of sets the stage for where he's going. But we have a full 600 years to deal with before the Flood, so we've kind of actually dealt with the first about 45, 46 years in Noah's life in this first book.

So, studying the groundwork for a lot of things, but you don't get to see a whole lot as far as the building of the Ark.

But you're looking at the cultural structure and the structure of the world around him, is that one of the points?

Yeah, and we really wanted to take it and give the world kind of this, we know that when the Flood comes, God says, the thoughts of men were continuously wicked. And so that's where we're headed, but we wanted to kind of give it a slowing, slowly get to that point.

And so Noah, he lives in a more innocent world at this point, and he hasn't seen a lot of evil, he hasn't seen a lot of bloodshed. And so as he goes on his journeys, and as he encounters different cultures that don't follow the ways of the Creator like his family did, he encounters more of it, but it's still, within this first book, there's not as much evil as we're going to have to see, obviously, in book three.

Yeah, and book two will actually be that transition for us, somewhere in the middle of the second book, which we're working on right now. The basis for that is to him also a son was born, and he named him Enosh, then men began to call him the name of the Lord.

So in the third generation, you have Adam, then Seth, then Enosh, it says men began to call him the name of the Lord. Well, those are people who are living, they're about 900 years old. When Noah comes on the scene, Enosh's generation, who were the elders in this godly generation that kind of held the wickedness in check, but as they start to die, by the time we get to when Noah's 500, it's not going to be a very nice place.

Yeah.

Okay.

We have, oh, by the way, Casey in North Carolina, you are getting a free copy of this book as well. That is Noah, Man of Destiny by Tim Chaffee and K. Marie Adams. And that's compliments of Master Books, the publisher of this book, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

And we hope you keep listening and keep spreading the word in North Carolina about the program. We have C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, have you or anyone from the ministry that you represent, Ken Ham or others, ever contacted those who have created very horrible Hollywood versions of these scenes from the Bible, such as the Russell Crowe movie with Noah?

And I was wondering if there was any rebuke given by anyone from your ministry to these folks so that perhaps in the future, they may use more wisdom in trying to be more accurate to the stories they are pretending to portray.

Well, we don't really have the, you know, Darren Aronofsky, you know, they didn't want to listen to us. Anything in scripture that is called good, they make evil. And so really they, and in some ways it was helpful for us in many ways that came true.

I think he did pay attention to it when he was making the film, and I think his idea was to twist it as much as he possibly could. So he knew what it said, and then he was trying to change it. I mean, he even got little, he got little tiny details wrong about the people who were on the ark, who were born.

He has Noah's father dying in the opening scene of the film rather than five years before the flood. And something that he could have changed, or he didn't, a website, answersingenesis .org, you can read my review.

It's where we did a live webcast. When it came out, we had, but I will give, they called me, and we did get to have a little bit of input that way.

One of the things that's valuable when it comes to films that purport to tell Bible stories is to wait until they've been reviewed by credible ministries, and then Christians can vote with their dollars whether they go to see it or not.

And that will affect Hollywood ultimately.

Yeah. Um, but of course, you used a very key word there, credible.

Yes, credible. What's a credible ministry? AIT is one of the best.

There was a Christian radio station that I am not going to mention, and a Christian talk show host that I'm not going to mention on that station that were promoting the Noah.