Hamza Yusuf

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white You know the way you repeat that rich by memory probably indicates we need to redo it

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I'm not trying to say that if even you can memorize it. It's you've heard it too many times Though somebody could have taken it that way, but that would have been very

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Or perhaps it was No, no, it was not. No, it was not meant that way at all

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Which sort of leads me to our first our first thing here today Tiquid James Swan just confessed and channel to a minor infraction of man's law

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As Far as the Speed of his vehicle went, but I'm awful glad he got home quickly enough because remember a few weeks ago we we played a

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Commercial from Catholic answers. I'm gonna let I'm gonna let you hear the whole the whole thing here We'll do some free advertising for Catholic answers

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Especially because I think they're listening. I'm gonna start sending them a bill. Yes Good luck getting that one paid.

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It'll be it'll come back with indulgences attached But here's a here's here's the

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Catholic answers a Commercial that I this is again where I first came to understand

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That Tim Staples is one of the foremost biblical scholars in The the

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Catholic Church today, and here's here's the advertise Tim Staples has done it again He's taken some of the trickiest

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Catholic teachings and made them easy for anyone to understand Catholics and non -catholics alike

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Log on to Catholic comm to order the brand new audio set the truth about purgatory and indulgences

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As you may know these two areas present some of the greatest difficulties for our non -catholic friends

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Why even many Catholics fail to fully comprehend what they're all about? That's why Tim Staples one of the church's foremost

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Bible scholars has tackled them for you Now in this new audio set you'll learn what purgatory is and what it's not all backed up with plenty of scriptural evidence

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The same for indulgences another difficult to understand area of Catholic teaching Ordered the truth about purgatory and indulgences today from Catholic answers by calling it and why they disappeared

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They're at the end for some odd reason well So there you went and and one of the church's for most biblical scholars, and I that excites me

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Someday finding a time. You know what we need to do is we need to find a church That really wants to host a debate

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I can think of a couple And what they'll do is instead of them giving us a date They'll say

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I'll tell you what we will host a debate between you and Tim Staples on the subject of Mary And what we'll do is we'll go to Tim Staples, and we'll say you name the date

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We will make ourselves available that way he can never say oh, I'm already scheduled that weekend. I'm already scheduled that weekend

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I'm already scheduled that weekend. We will do it whenever you are free and He can't possibly be scheduled for the rest of his life, and so but when this happens

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And someday Lord willing it will happen, then I will know that I am up against one of the foremost biblical

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Scholars around well, that's what I thought anyways, but you see Tiquid Has informed me

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That something has happened Something has has changed and He was listening to the

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Catholic answers broadcast, and there's a new Commercial and I hate to tell you this folks.

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I'm deeply disappointed But it looks like Tim Staples has been demoted

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Yes, it looks like he has been Demoted here is the new

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Version of the Catholic answers commercial Tim Staples has done it again He's taken some of the trickiest

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Catholic teachings and made them easy for anyone to understand Catholics and non -catholics alike

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Call Catholic answers today at triple a two nine one eight thousand or log on to Catholic comm to order the brand new audio set the truth about purgatory and indulgences

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As you may know these two areas present some of the greatest difficulties for our non -catholic friends

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Why even many Catholics fail to fully comprehend what they're all about? That's why Tim Staples one of the top apologists in the church today has tackled them for you

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Now in this new audio set you'll learn what purgatory is and what it's not all backed up with plenty of scriptural evidence

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The same for indulgences another difficult to understand area of Catholic teaching Ordered the truth about purgatory and indulgences today from Catholic answers by calling eight eight eight two nine one eight thousand

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Or by logging on to Catholic comm Okay, now let me make sure you caught that now because I don't want anybody to be missing anything here

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This is this is the the changed portion. Why haven't many Catholics failed to fully comprehend what they're all about That's why

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Tim Staples one of the top apologists in the church today now wait a minute not just This is a tragedy.

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This is a travesty this is lots of fun

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You know I really hope you had a parachute for that fall Because you know what you know what the greatest tragedy is here now

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He's on the same level with Jerusalem Jones one of the top

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Apologists in the church today, and that's exactly how Steve Ray was described in the program

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We were listening to before so now That's a fall Let me tell you something from one of the four most biblical scholars in the church to just one of the top apologists oh, man, that is

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I Didn't have time to queue up any sad music Because we got that just before it started but Unfortunately Merck won't play sounds anymore, or I'd play taps

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Right here in the thing, but but we won't do that So you know what this does prove though other than the fact that we are enjoying the fact that we made this commercial is somebody was listening and somebody went uh guys

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You know Is it really consistent for us to you know?

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Say this and someone went um hmm, maybe not, but I wonder if that would have happened if we hadn't been

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Talking about Tim Staple as well as tables is one of the foremost biblical scholars

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In the world. I'm sorry in the church in the church not in the world, but it's for the church I mean, it's a sort of goes along with that well.

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Thank you. Thank you T. Quid for that I I I don't know it might be appropriate to send some some notes of comfort and consolation

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Over to Tim saying really sorry about we heard what happened and The demotion and you know should send some flowers some flowers.

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We should wait. You know some tulips Let's get on it right now.

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Let's get a collection started jail right now to send a dozen tulips to Tim Staples Or Or I saw a quote and in fact is

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T. Quid again saw a quote on Dave Armstrong's blog About syngenis and matotix not being what was it completed conversions?

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and it had something to do with with Fundamentalist Calvinism or something like that so maybe we should send the tulips to Dave Armstrong in the name of Tim Staples That would

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I think that would cover all of our Basis Well hey, it's a

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Thursday and My grades are due today, and I'm not done grading and so it makes for a little bit of a loopy afternoon

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I guess but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one At least we have fun.

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We're not just dottering old men quite yet, but we are working on it I have two clips

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I wanted to play one here And then what I think we're gonna do depending on what kind of calls we get or if we get any calls at all it all depends is

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While back I Responded to a King James only fellow on YouTube who posted some

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Responses to me a response to me and the midst of all of this calling me an antichrist and all the rest of stuff he likewise admitted that he actually hadn't read my book and I responded to that and that was a number of months ago now.

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Well. I don't know about three four weeks ago he finally posted a 23 video response a 23 video response and a review of the

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King James only controversy and Somebody else immediately saw it and pointed out that the very first argument.

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He made the very first argument Was completely wrong he was quoting some guy was real big in the y2k stuff as I recall and Was saying the

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King James was right in first John 2? And this fellow went through its basic Greek translation a basic understanding of the difference between the

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King James English and modern English But again, it was I mean the very first point made was just 100 percent wrong and the young man

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You know he's zealous But he's exceptionally ignorant. He just doesn't know what he's talking about.

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He's way way way out of his league And as a result you know he just repeats stuff uncritically, and it's sort of said so what

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I did today is I Downloaded well actually what

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I did is is I've queued up here I did a search in King James only the first of the 23 of his reviews that came up I just clicked on and it happened to be number eight.

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I've not watched it. Don't know what's in it So what I'll do is after I do this other other thing.

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It's a little more serious. I'll just play it and Without any preparation without I don't even have

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I suppose I could find the book it's probably in here someplace. Oh, yeah there it is But without any preparation.

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I think I'm just gonna play it I'll be hearing it along with you guys And I'll respond to it and you'll see what kind of argumentation

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And I just like I said first one came up clicked on there it is part number eight of 23 Randomly picked and just by the search engine and how it was looking for things, okay, but before I do that On a more serious note.

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I have mentioned a number of times the fact that There really are myths

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That grow up about Christian history Many of them exist amongst

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Christians, but many of them exist amongst enemies of Christianity And I remember

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I don't know I don't remember what year it was sometime back in the 1990s. I remember standing outside the

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South gate of the LDS temple in Salt Lake City and having a conversation over toward the

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Over in the shade toward the phone booths For those of you who have stood there for as many years as we had it'd be interesting to go back there again

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Just see how things have changed in the past four or five years six years however long it's been somewhere there anyway, and I had a long conversation with someone about the history of the

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Christian faith and One of the things that came up over and over and over again was this guy was really into the

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Council of Nicaea and the Council of Nicaea did this and the Council of Nicaea did that and the

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Council of Nicaea Determined the canon of the Bible and the Council of Nicaea invented the deity of Christ and the

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Council of Nicaea invented monotheism I mean that was the busiest council that had ever existed in the history of man

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So when I came back I had I don't remember if CRI had contacted me or I'd contact the

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CRI What it was, but I wrote what really happened at the Council of Nicaea of the CRI journal.

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That's the same Ironically the same article That Patrick Madrid and Envoy magazine did an anonymous hit piece on still the greatest example of absolutely cheesy apologetics

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I've ever seen from allegedly serious Catholic apologists where they got a guy to write against a footnote without mentioning who wrote it or where you could go to find out that it

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Was a footnote and that you were grossly misrepresenting the original intention of the article itself and even at that you were wrong

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But anyway, that was the same article and the article was intended to to point out, you know, what the

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Council of Nicaea was sort of focused Had certain things it was addressing and the canon of Scripture was not one of them

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Well You still hear from Mormons all the time Well, this is when the

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Council of Nicaea did this the Council of Nicaea did that and you hear Jehovah's Witnesses Of course,

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I remember the Jehovah's Witnesses that wandered into our offices when we were down on Camelback Road that somehow they didn't know what what it was and talking about walking in the lion's den and and this this

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Jehovah's Witness elder just Look at me right in the eye and swearing up and down that nobody had ever expressed belief in the deed of Christ before the year 1200

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And Well, let me can I get you some books here, you know, could we go read there?

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No, but uh, and then of course as we have been dealing with Islam more and more

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You cannot help but avoid the fact that and recognize the fact that they draw from the worst of the

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Christian cults uncritically and so you'll find

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Muslims constantly saying well the Council of Nicaea Came up with the idea that Jesus was the Son of God the

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Council of Nicaea Said that you know These were the books the

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Bible the Council of Nicaea. Oh, what was what was the which one which guy was I reviewing? Oh, yeah, it was

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Khalid Yassin He said that at the Council of Nicaea. In fact, I might have played this

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I play it on the YouTube video. That's right He said that the Council of Nicaea rejected the

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Gospel of Barnabas The Gospel of Barnabas which was written sometime after 1415 hundred in Italy Um, and the

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Council of Nicaea was in 325, but Khalid Yassin thought it was in 354 But again, you know the accuracy thing just not real high

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Well, I expect that amongst the folks that clearly are not trained, you know

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Khalid Yassin really Don't see any evidence of any Major League training there and some of these others

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But what I've been doing recently is when I ride inside I have been watching a DVD set with Hamza Yusuf now

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Hamza Yusuf is one of the biggest names in American Islam and I think on 9 12 or 9 13 of 2001

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He was one of the Muslim leaders invited to the White House to talk with President Bush.

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So We're not talking, you know some backwoods guy here We're not talking somebody who you know is spinning conspiracy theories about the

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American government Creating AIDS and using missionaries to spread it in Africa and all the rest is lunacy that people like Khalid Yassin Spew out we're talking about someone who's clearly well read born and raised in Northern, California Very interesting to listen to And yet I'm sitting here listening him talking about how the

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Quran was collated How it was brought together and he decides to provide a contrast about how soon after its original revelation

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The Quran is put in written form and has all these witnesses and all the rest of stuff

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And he takes a very conservative view of this which is interesting. He knows what the Orientalists say

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He knows what the other perspective is, but he still takes a very conservative view But here's what he says about Christians and so here's

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If someone wants to point to higher level people in Islam in the

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United States great, but you know, Hamza Yusuf is well known his materials promoted widely and Here's what

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Hamza Yusuf said and I heard while writing just a few days ago In the Christian tradition also, the final codification is already 325 when there's an agreement on the four

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Gospels So the the codification is in 325 when there's an agreement on the four

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Gospels I think he actually says here. Let me say Sorry about that at the Council of Nicaea.

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There you go and You know, I'm sitting here watching this And I'm just like Wow what there is

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Evidently you you just get enough people saying it it just it becomes history

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Whether it happened or not Whether the primary sources bear testimony to it or not whether there's any reason to believe that or not just doesn't seem to matter

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It's just you know, I heard Hamza Yusuf say it must be true. He checked these things out, right, you know

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And so there is truly a an example there I think of the kind of Myth -making

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I Remember the look on the face if I'd had more time I probably should have thought of doing this.

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I remember the look on the face of Peter Stravinsky's in the purgatory debate in 2001 when he rattled off the

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Augustine quote Roma locuta est causa finita est And we're just playing games and I challenged the word where do you ever say that why you're just playing it well

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You mean sermon 131? Well, have you got the number looking up on your gadget there, you know the gizmo? Etc, etc.

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And he just could not even begin to deal with the fact that that's not what Augustine said and You can prove it's not what

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Augustine said and I gave him the Latin and He just couldn't believe That anyone in my position would even have looked at something like that let alone

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Would have that kind of material and it's just he had never looked it up. It clearly had never looked it up It's just it's repeated over and over and over again

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It's a little bit like the Luther and the dunghill thing. No one can find that quote It no one can find it.

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They've looked and looked and looked they found all sorts of stuff Similar to it and it's it's certainly consistent with Luther's perspective, but you can't say it's on page such -and -such of the why my works or whatever, you know

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It's you just can't find it And it's so things just sort of take on a life of their own eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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Thank you very much. Mr. Yusuf. All right, so we go from the the sublime to the absurd.

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I'm sorry one now We How do you know that there isn't stuff in here that we shouldn't be airing since you haven't heard it?

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This guy doesn't have a propensity to say no bad word. He's a he's a he's a

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King James only fundamentals Baptist He might say boo -boo Okay, just check it, you know you go putting blind stuff on there

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This is the internet we're not on the air Well, that's true and we could you know, it's live people can get all the blue and we'll

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Clean it out later. Yeah, if we need it, all right chicken anyway All right, let's like I said this is if you go to if you go to YouTube This is called book review colon the

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KJV only controversy PT space eight from grasshopper jacks is

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The is the individual's name you can look this up yourself. Make sure it's the right one and So here again haven't listened to it, but let's let's see

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Where yours truly is once again being Demonstrated to be a false teacher and enemy of the

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Word of God and those were all the stuff That's all the stuff that he used for maybe he's gotten nice or something.

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But then again, maybe not let's let's find out what it says Genesis chapter 3.

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This is the devil talking to Eve Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the

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Lord God hath made and he said unto the woman Yeah, if God said he shall not eat of every tree in the garden

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No one said unto the serpent. We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden But the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden

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God has said you shall not eat of it Now that's how you touch it. Let's you die the serpents out of the woman You shall not surely die, but God doth know that in the day

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I eat thereof Then your eyes shall be open and you shall be as God's Now pay attention to verse 1 the devil says to Eve Has God said you should not eat of every tree in the garden?

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Is that what God said God that they couldn't eat from every tree of the garden? Let's see what God said in chapter 2 and the

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Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden To dress it and to keep it

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The Lord God commanded the man saying of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat But if the tree of the garden of good of knowledge of good and evil

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Thou shalt eat of it for in a day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die God told

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Adam and Eve they could eat from every tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil The devil confused even said that God said he couldn't eat from every tree

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Notice that the confusion origin of preaching of ambiguousness and allegory in the

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Bible breeds confusion Uh Okay, I'll stop it there for a moment.

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It's sort of interesting I think he's tried to use some sort of like green screen technology because I'm looking at the video here which is sort of one of the problems of you know, the dividing lines we don't get to have the video part, but Someday, maybe not.

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Anyway, he's just some sort of green screen type thing going on here And there's all it's it keeps popping through.

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It's really weird how it looks but anyways um Yeah It's pretty well known that Lucifer's challenge to Eve Was not an accurate representation of the original how that is directly related to origins wackiness

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And the fact that I would find the large portion of origins materials

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Unworthy of much attention Because of his allegorical interpretations,

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I don't know Has something to do with confusion, I guess and I guess for some of these folks

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Using a if you use a translation you're not accustomed to that'll that'll bring confusion

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Which of course again, I've always said that the main problem with King James only ism Is that it doesn't use a consistent standard.

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What if you were raised on the NIV? Using the King James would bring you confusion, too Therefore that would make the

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King James bad, wouldn't it? But they don't really think that way because they only apply the arguments one direction

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But anyway, I'm not really certain of the connection between origin and this but we'll continue on that was about reading confusion in God's Word and Adding missed mystery in God's Word and trying to corrupt

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God's Word. It's a battle that goes back to the Garden of Eden It's no different than uh, we just read to you in his book white continually maintains that a lot of things are

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Deleted from the modern versions were actually added by the King James translators. He keeps repeating

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Excuse me. I did not say by the King James translators. I said by the text utilized by the

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King James translators later Byzantine scribes I may have a couple of times talked about I did a number of times talk about Erasmus's Textual choices and the places where he inserted material based solely upon the

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Latin Vulgate and not based upon the Greek texts that were before him and I may have had some discussion of some of the odd especially

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Old Testament translations Likewise based primarily upon taking the

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Latin Vulgate over either the Masoretic or Greek Septuagint texts But I did not say it the

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King James translators were just adding things What I was saying was they were either using a different textual platform

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Latin Vulgate or Especially in the New Testament, they would be following the later

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Byzantine manuscripts But they themselves were not quote -unquote adding anything and that's an inaccuracy on this gentleman's part

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A lot of the additions in the King James were nothing more than scribal memory from previous scribes

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Scribal memory, I think that's what he said. I think he said scribal memory. I'm not sure what scribal memory means

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But if he's talking about conflation if he's talking about a later scribe having access to multiple

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Manuscripts and the fact that they were conservative that is they maintained even multiple readings

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Conflating them together or something like that. That's not really arguable Once you find a conflated reading in the later manuscript and you can identify the textual streams from which it came that's not really something we can argue about but I'm just trying to figure out

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Unfortunately my experience in listening to this gentleman in times past is that One of the hardest things just figure out what he what it is.

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He's hearing because so often For these folks that the tradition is so thick and they're so convinced that I could not possibly be right that that when they try to repeat to me what it was

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I said and You know, it could be that I'm just a really bad writer But since there have been many many many people who have found the book to be extremely clear and extremely helpful

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That's probably not the case and at least in this instance So it's probably more likely that there is a really strong bias functioning here to where the young man just doesn't understand what it is that I'm That I'm saying with absolutely no evidence or proof of this

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He just completely says it and leaves it at that. There's no That's just not true. Obviously.

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I provided lots of in fact any time I made any reference to an expansion of the text

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I would either cite the relevant manuscript evidence or the translational evidence

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That is when I discussed the text that Latin Vulgate was used things like that I would frequently give that text where it came from how it differed from either the

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Old Testament Hebrew or the New Testament Greek or wherever else it might be So it's just it's a false statement to say that I did not give any evidence whatsoever evidence of anything in his book that he offers for Scribal additions to the the

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Word of God in the King James Bible now page 47 he says this is about a

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Preservation he says the problem with the position taken by the defender of the AV Authorized version is that he has not demonstrated that his way is the only way to understand the idea of preservation

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Does God have to preserve his work in the King in the way KGB only advocates believe? Oh my god,

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I've done this another way. I agree with James White God does not to preserve his word according to anybody whether it be the

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King James only advocate or the enemies of the Word of God Decide he does it did you catch that or the enemies of the

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Word of God? So if you disagree with me, you're just the enemy of the Word of God It's sad, you know because I you know,

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I I can't dislike this fellow I mean, I he's got zeal, but he's just ignorant.

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He's just you know, he's just stuck in tradition and I would just love to see him exposed to to decent preaching and serious education and in Christian matters because clearly that's not what he's getting and So he he thinks in these these

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Black and white terms that are not really black and white terms So you you're either a

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King James only advocate or you're an enemy of the Word of God And he may not have even meant to say he may not even realize that he said that but that in and of itself tells you a lot that that's how he thinks and The fact that that that I have spent

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Probably as much time as he's been alive defending the Word of God against attacks from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and defending a solo script

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Torah and debating Bart Ehrman coming in January and so on so forth of Just doesn't even seem to enter into his thinking, you know

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It must be very confusing to people like this to try to ask to answer the question Why is it that that you do what you do because they have to believe that I'm an evil

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You know the high priest of the Alexandrian cult And so I guess I do all this defending of the

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Bible just simply that you know to keep my identity secret or something I don't know. It's Very very difficult, but you know, you sort of wondered don't they sometimes in a more honest moment sit back and go

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I Wonder why our people aren't taking those folks on You know, why aren't they taking on the the

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Bart Ehrman's the world or the John dominant crossings of the Marcus Borgs or whatever?

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else, you know and The reason they aren't is because they can't this is all there is to it That's that's just a simple fact of matter the way

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God Preserves his Bible is how he said he would do it in the Bible. So it's appeal to the Bible Okay, so the way that God said he would preserve the

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Bible is the way he says he preserve it in the Bible now, of course, I do address the primary text the King James only advocates have referred to like Psalm 12 and things like that and demonstrated that a serious exegesis of those texts does not give us a specific mechanism of Preservation that would point us to a

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Early 17th century Anglican translation in a language that did not yet exist at the time of the writing of the

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Bible But Be that as it may it is interesting to see how our our

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Fellow here is going to try to Make the

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Bible present King James only ism here. Here's here's how here's how it works out chapter 17 verses 15 to 19

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Bible says thou shalt in any wise said him king over thee whom the Lord thy God shall choose

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One from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee thou mayest not set a stranger over thee

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Which is not thy brother But he shall not multiply horses to himself nor cause the people to return to Egypt To the end that he should multiply horses for as much as the

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Lord hath said unto you You shall henceforth return no more that way Neither shall he multiply wives to himself that his heart turn not away

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Neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold and it shall be when he sits upon the throne of his kingdom

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That he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which before the priests the

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Levites And it shall be with him and he shall read therein all the days of his life Then he may learn to fear the

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Lord his God to keep all the words of this law and these statutes to do them And it's hardly not lifted up above his brethren and then did not turn aside from the commandment

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To the right hand or to the left to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom He and his children in the midst of Israel number one

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It's clear that God Endorsed copy that was the method with which he preserved his worth copy okay, so you have the warning at the establishment of the monarchy about the probable abuses probably prophetic warning about the abuses that a king will bring upon the people and Then you have the assertion that the king is to have a copy of the law

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Before him so that he would be careful to do according to its statutes

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And that then is taken to mean the way that God has chosen to preserve his word is through copying well

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Problem is that's not how you preserve it. That's how you promulgate it That is how you transmit it and it is the fact that it is copied and That that is a human process the copying part

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That raises the issues. Are you going to say as? interestingly enough

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Bart Ehrman seems to say that if the original was inspired then the copyist themselves will be inspired and That their

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God will not allow any textual variation to take place There are people who believe pretty much along those lines and they're called

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Muslims and that's called the Quran Go back and listen to the the

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Wallace -Ehrman debate from New Orleans last month, and you'll hear Dan presenting that But this is an issue of the how of preservation.

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No one's arguing that the scriptures were copied We know for example in the days of Josiah a copy of the scriptures are found and a revival

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Comes as a result we know there were copies the the scroll of Isaiah was handed to Jesus in the synagogue and and he reads from it and there were

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Paul talked about Timothy bringing the parchments to him and and Not no question about that.

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But what does that have to do with preservation? that's the issue that we need to find out if our our friend here is going to actually

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Delve into a meaningful depth or just simply present This as if well, it's just since I read it this way and it just must be that way now

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Find me in the scriptures. I just read Find me where it's stated that these men

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Levi's that got used to copy the Bible. They claimed inspiration Find that for me in the sex find it anywhere actually when they had to claim inspiration to copy the

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Bible. I don't see Where did

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I ever say anything like that I mean, it does seem that some King James only folks tend to think of it that way if you're gonna make one particular text

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The the standard text, but even then as it has been pointed out many times Even if you create the artificial textus receptus which is what

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Scrivener did when he went back and he looked at the textual choices that the King James translators made between the five editions of Erasmus the editions of Stephanos the edition of Beza and He created the artificial

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TR it's that blue case bound one Trinitarian Bible Society puts out That people think here's the

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TR Actually, that's just simply reflective of the textual choices made by the King James translators.

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That's actually an English Greek text and Even if you take that you will not find a single handwritten manuscript anywhere in the world that reads exactly like that so You have to deal with that in your theory of preservation

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You can't just ignore it. You can't just throw something out and say I'm you know, I don't care about that stuff You're a

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God hater. You're trying to destroy my faith in the Bible and we've had that happen over and over again When you challenge somebody how does your theory deal with the reality the factual reality if your theory requires us to abandon?

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factual reality Then it's probably not a very good theory. It's not one that Christians anyways should embrace

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And it's hard to even read into the text it clearly said they just had a copy Why because what's the key here learn to fear

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God in order to properly copy the Bible? He had to have a fear of God a godly fear that you don't want to misinterpret or misrepresent his

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Bible because though That's not even what the text is saying The text is not saying that he needed to fear

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God so we copy it correctly The text is saying he needed to have a copy and from so he'd fear God. He's got it backwards

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This is the king This is how the Word of God is supposed to reign the king in so he doesn't become arrogant

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So that he remains a humble servant of the people of God, but here's someone who's so focused on King James only ism

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He actually ends up turning the text upside down The reason that he has the copy made before him is so that he might fear

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God It doesn't say and if you fear God, you'll make accurate copies. That's just wow

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I mean completely missing the actual actual point of the text and and It's it's just sad to have sad to observe words in this book belong to him

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So there was no issue in those days about copying the Bible and scribal errors

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How does he know that? Because the king is told to have a copy of the scriptures that that means there were no scribal errors back then

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But where does that come from how is that logic how does that follow?

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It doesn't but I would like to try to figure out the the mindset that that leads to that There's not issue in that in those days

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That's the main method God has used to preserve his word whether James White likes it or not

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Whether the enemy of God's were like it or not He stated that Bible will be copied and no

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What does that have to do with me, I don't know no rational person could possibly answer that question since my book makes it very plain that the

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Bible was copied and That that's the means by which the transmission of the text took place down to the time of the widespread establishment of printing facilities and printing technology

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Said nothing other than that, but I guess we're getting some kind of divine

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Preservation in copying read into This text here for some reason and how or why?

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Don't know couldn't couldn't possibly couldn't possibly figure that out, but let's let's continue on.

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Oh, you don't have to be Reinspired to copy because that's not I again.

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You don't have to be reinspired to copy it. Mmm. Not sure who's said that Maybe it was in part seven.

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I don't know But anyway That's a tradition of man teaching to undermine

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God's Word to put men above the authority of the Bible so that they can bring Men other men onto bondage in their hands in the book of second

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Kings 22. We read about a man named Josiah Hilkiah the priest Finds the book of the law in verse number eight in the house of God and he gives it to Josiah and Josiah In verse 30 when he when he receives the book

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He Bible's the Bible says he rent his clothes meaning he ripped it not like Superman but he ripped it as a sign of blasphemy because back in the days when

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It wasn't a sign of blasphemy. It was a sign of weeping and and remorse and Mourning that the

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Word of God had not been distributed amongst people. They had not been doing what God had commanded them to do

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Etc. Etc. A blasphemy was occurred against God the the man in charge would rip his shirt to show that a blasphemy had occurred and the priest command and the king commanded

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Hilkiah the priest and Ahikam the son of Shaphan and Akbar the son of Micaiah and Shaphan the scribe and as a higher assert of the king saying

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Go ye Inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all

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Judah concern the words of this book that is found For great is the wrath of the

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Lord that is kindled against us because our fathers have not hearkened on to the words of this book

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To do according to all that which is written concerning us So kind of priest and I cam and Akbar and Shafan and as a higher

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Went on to help hold out the prophetess the wife of Shalom the son of Tichba the son of Harhas Keeper of the wardrobe now, she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they communed with him

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And she said unto them thus saith the Lord God of Israel tell the man that sent you to me

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Thus saith the Lord behold I will bring evil upon this place and upon the inhabitants thereof

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Even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read Because they have forsaken me and have burned incense unto other gods that they might provoke me to anger with all their works

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With all the works of their hands therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place and should not be quenched

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But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the Lord Thus shall you say to him thus saith the

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Lord God of Israel as touching the words which thou has heard Because I in heart was tender and thou has humbled thyself before the

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Lord When thou heardest what I speak against this place and against the inhabitants thereof They should become a desolation and a curse and has rent my clothes and wept before me.

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I also have heard thee saith the Lord So Josiah find the

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Bible this time Didn't seem to correct it didn't seem to put on their scrutiny.

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He saw it and He demanded that he put in the hearts of all

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God's people Yeah, so It wasn't the

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King James Version brother. It wasn't even in English. What does this have to do with English translations the

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Bible? I haven't a clue There's nothing there that I would obviously disagree with in any way shape or form

43:52

I've I've spoken on this subject for at that just a little while ago. I Spent some time talking with a friend on the phone about another issue and happened to point to this very text as an example of something similar subject different applications similar subject

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Don't know how this is at all relevant. There's only There's less than two minutes left then we'll get to our one caller

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We'll get him in before the end of the program here But I want to don't want him to give him an excuse to saying I didn't play the whole thing

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Because I said I was gonna play part eight. So What does this have to do so far so far? Have we heard anything?

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That would in any way shape or form impact my book Substantiate accusations might being an enemy of God an enemy of the

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Word of God No, we haven't heard a single thing so far and God said this was a great man

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Modern -day scholarship is not full of people like that. Modernist scholarship has men who were putting themselves above the

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Bible by correcting the Bible by Adding their own spin on it deleting the words and then relegating at the footnotes and God needs you to put his word as footnotes

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Wow Again, you know the scary thing is maybe by now this man actually has read my book

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Which means he has no excuse for remaining ignorant and saying ignorant things like that. And why is that ignorant real simple?

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No one I'll take that back Believing scholars do not put themselves above God's Word the whole reason that believing scholars want to engage in Scholarship and the study of the

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Word of God is to make sure that the people of God have what was written and the inspiration of the

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Holy Spirit not what became popular amongst scribes or other people down to the centuries and You need to realize that what this man is presenting is the exact same argument that was used to defend the

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Latin Vulgate This was the exact same kind of argument that was used to defend the Greek Septuagint at the time the translation of the

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Latin Vulgate This kind this is traditionalism This is this is not putting a real concern for the

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Word of God first This is putting a concern for what you think the Word of God is first, and there is a difference between the two they're all traditions and So to say well you're putting something in a footnote

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Well, of course there are footnotes throughout the King James Version of the Bible when it was first published Again something that if he would read the whole book and think about it

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He would discover there were all sorts of places where the King James translators themselves Indicated questions about the underlying text does that mean the

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King James translators are putting themselves above God? Don't you want to know what the texts say is ignorance truly bliss

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No, it is not bliss and I do get a little bit upset about this because it is this very attitude that is absolutely defenseless in the face of Islam this kind of person has nothing to say to the

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Muslim at all and I I you know so when you're passionate about that you don't really anyway and Jeremiah 36

47:07

You're hiking Tell you what Now I know why it's 23 parts long if you just sit there and read laying these sections

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It's going to be 23 parts long and you can fill 20 parts of nothing So I want to get a call -in if we can go back to it after we answer the this we will if not

47:26

Well, I think we've already demonstrated the nature of this particular response nothing there to be looking at let's talk to Pierre in Canada.

47:34

Hi Pierre Hi, dr. White. How you doing? Good. Thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to Touch on a the debate with you and Shabir Ali at Biola Is the

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New Testament we possess today inspired? Mm -hmm, and I think it is rebuttal. I think it's first rebuttal.

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He said That you hadn't provided positive evidence for the inspiration of the

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New Testament, but just argued about his inconsistency and I just want to know what you if When when we do defend inspiration some people tend to use proof like, you know the accuracy of the claims of historical claims, etc, and Fulfilled prophecy, etc, and I've never found those particular evidence is really convincing even though I agree with them

48:28

But I think in your in your response But is inconsistency of using liberal

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Sources to argue against the New Testament. No, I actually actually my response to him was was really clear the the question the the debate was between a

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Muslim and a Christian yeah, and what I pointed out was that the reality of inspiration is is not the issue even the

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Quran itself Tells us in surah 546 and following to judge by that which has been nuts all that which has been sent down Well, okay.

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I didn't say that because I hadn't started studying Arabic yet But now that's what I would say and I did quote the text that we are to judge

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But what God has revealed in the books? The Kitab there's plural in the books that have been sent down There's a number of places in the

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Quran where books are referred to not the book not the Quran But the books plural that have been sent down and in talking to the al -qitad the people the book or the people of the gospel the

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Injil Those people are told to judge by that which has been revealed to them

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And so in a if I was debating an atheist First of all

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I would not debate an atheist on the inspiration of the New Testament Because it's ridiculous to debate an atheist on the inspiration

49:49

New Testament if inspiration requires the existence of a God and we haven't started that Point it's it's the wrong point to start at but the reason it's worthwhile should be worthwhile to debate with a

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Muslim Is that the Muslims own ultimate authority testifies that the al -qitad the people of the book?

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possessed a revelation that came from God And so the question then becomes upon what basis?

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Does Shabir Ali or any other Muslim say that what we possess today?

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Was not sent down by God. The issue is not the existence of inspiration at all They that is a given to any believing

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Muslim. That's that's that's not even questionable at that point And so what

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I was pointing out is that the standards that he was using Where he says well and even he said and he didn't bother to prove this either

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He said the New Testament is a mixture of the words of God and the words of men So he admitted yeah, the words of God are in there.

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So what was his actual argument? It's impurity that is corruption of transmission over time.

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And so that was his argument and my opening statement Yes, I think what he was a little bit upset about and I guess

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I can understand it Though I don't think there's anything wrong about it. Is that I in my opening presentation made my presentation

51:10

Directly relevant to what I knew was Shabir Ali's argument. I took the time to listen to my opponent study and and accurately represent what his arguments were would be and Therefore I presented my argument based upon what his arguments against New Testament have always been and his new

51:29

Arguments have never been that there's no revelation His arguments have never been that God has not spoken in fact in his debate with Robert Maury he chided

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Maury for doing the same things that he does all the time in in basically embracing a secularist worldview in the examination of the

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Quran But he can embrace a secularist worldview in regards the examination of the Testament So that's you know,

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I really feel you know I know that he might continue to this day to argue otherwise and I know that there are some

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Christians some Evidentialist Christians who have agreed with him on that. I think it's a very clear methodological difference that Shabir has gotten away with doing that against other people many many times and There was no reason to repeat the same error over and over again deal with the presuppositional nature of his argumentation

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Demonstrate that it's flawed and move forward from there And that's that's why the debate

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I think went as well as it did is because that's that's how I approached it now I agree with you if we take it out of the

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Islamic Christian context and we take it out of a discussion that starts with both sides agreeing to the

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Existence of divine revelation and that God is a speaking God and he can communicate with mankind

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Created mankind with the ability to receive revelation all those things are given in The context that I would have this should be it was

52:57

Shabir Ali and I think it's a little bit disingenuous To demand that I take my time to reestablish the givens of the debate anyways

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That's one reason. I just really did not find that objection to be overly weighty at all Is that if it's given on both of our parts?

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Why should I be wasting my time arguing about stuff that we already both agree on but if we take it outside of that?

53:19

Then aside from you know, if it's the atheists aside when I said earlier, I wouldn't be debating this subject anyway

53:26

Then we start talking about are those evidences in regards to fulfilled prophecies or evidences of Supernatural preservation in one form or another certainly not the

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King James only viewpoint. We were just testing Are those in and of themselves?

53:44

Proofs that stand on their own and as you said you've not found them taken as in a in isolation in essence as being overwhelmingly

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Evidential shall we say are carrying a whole lot of weight and I think most even evidentialists would say they have to be taken as a group and should be taking this group.

54:04

Okay, fine But on a simple epistemological level, I would point out once again, what is it that we're attempting to prove?

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If you are attempting to prove that God has spoken Then the nature of his speaking

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Has to be proven by a greater authority than God himself and Now once you start talking about ultimate authorities

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That's when you get into the epistemological conundrum that ultimate authorities do not allow for any kind of external verification

54:39

If I say to you It is supposed to be 92 degrees in Phoenix today

54:47

I can prove that by making reference to sources of authority that are have greater weight and evidentiary power than I myself have

55:02

But once you get to the Word of God itself What does

55:07

God swear by? how Exactly You you get the the circularity of the ultimate authority.

55:16

Yeah, and so that while those evidences Taken as a whole

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Can be beneficial to the people of God and I think in light of the

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Imago Dei Are sufficient for rendering the man without an

55:38

Anapologia without a defense Romans chapter 1 They are not in of themselves capable on a strict epistemological basis of bearing the weight of demonstrating that something is the honest us because that would

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Require us to find in them a higher evidentiary authority than the Word of God itself

55:58

Which of course would be would make that the Word of God so that that doesn't work. So Yeah, I would

56:05

I would agree with your initial analysis on that, okay, thanks Yeah, I just I just wanted to reiterate that I agreed with your approach to that and I found it very helpful

56:14

I just want to wish you all the best in your future debates, especially Bart Ehrman at the end of the year Yeah, you know the sad thing is

56:21

I don't know that your your country For much longer would even be a place we could have debates like that.

56:27

Oh Yeah Good point, you know, so we need to pray for you all too. Yeah. Thank you.

56:33

All right. Thank you. God bless you do way Yeah, that was interesting. I guess

56:39

I've got just enough time to see if there's anything left in this let's see if they're received the scroll of Jeremiah the original written school of Jeremiah and he burns he cuts it when he burns it and God instructs

56:53

Jeremiah to write the words again And this time I wonder if he wrote them in English King James these and that's new words

57:01

Moses in the book of Exodus Drops the Ten Commandments the tablet of the Ten Commandments on the floor and breaks it in pieces

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Yet the world were preserved and God even speaks him again in Deuteronomy chapter 4

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I think it is and those were done in Hebrew not in the idea is a original manuscript ism and That's a stupid term.

57:24

I agree. So it's KJV only ism Original manuscript is not supported in the

57:29

Bible because original manuscripts do get destroyed The original school of Jeremiah was destroyed.

57:35

So is the original Ten Commandments? God instructs the Levite priest to copy the words of the

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Lord For each king that would sit in the throne. So each King of Israel had his own copy of the

57:49

Bible that Then Explain why

57:56

Josiah Why explain why the priest found the book of the Lord in the temple and it resulted in the

58:01

Reformation under Josiah? The point was yes, the command was given to do that, but they didn't follow through What does any of that have to do with how we accurately determine what

58:12

Jeremiah originally wrote? I wonder if he even knows the difference between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint text in the text of Jeremiah and how it

58:20

Probably reflects the very thing you're just talking about there and yet that means that there are differences between it

58:25

I don't know but there you go I picked one of the 23 and if that's what they're all like and I already saw number one had these gross errors in it

58:34

Well, there you go. Once again, King James only ism shown to be well what it is an incoherent system of human tradition

58:42

Thanks for listening to the dividing line Lord willing. We'll be back next Tuesday. See you then God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

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