TiL- Hebrews 1:6-14

Hi, welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. Dan and I are going to continue

Our conversation in the book of Hebrews. We are continuing in Hebrews chapter 1.

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That'd be great. I'm looking forward to the day that you accidentally click off of it and let people see me dancing.

That's pretty entertaining. I like watching it myself. Well, before we get into the conversation on Hebrews, I wanted to throw something at you, and I just briefly, vaguely told you what

I was gonna throw at you. But something that I'm sure you've mulled over, you've had conversations about with people.

I've had conversations about with folks and mulled over in my mind is church growth, and it's a huge industry.

People make money off of it. Churches decide, excuse me, their strategies in different ways.

But I think, thinking about Hebrews, the whole book of Hebrews, Hebrews chapter one,

I think the direction that I'm going with this church growth thought in my mind is really relevant to Hebrews and the theme of Hebrews and what's going on there.

But Dan, if we're thinking about church growth, we're leaders in churches.

Let's say we are the folks that are opposed to program -centered, program -driven churches, program -driven strategies.

We wanna be biblically focused, biblically driven, seek

God and how he would have us to operate his church and let him drop the growth, if you will.

But if you think about it, people gather or come to a gathering of believers, which we call church, they choose a certain church for a reason, like, okay, you go to a

Presbyterian church because of theological reasons, and I go to a Baptist church because of theological reasons.

But then amongst your Presbyterian branches and amongst the

Baptist branches, you've got to narrow it down. And then once you get to that level, you get to your local churches.

Well, which of the churches around me that's close to me do

I choose, which one do I go to? So people are choosing to travel and gather together with a group of believers for a reason.

I mean, they're choosing that particular gathering for a certain reason.

And I think that's okay for us to keep in mind that people are choosing to come together with us for a certain reason.

And for us who want to be biblical, I'm using my hands a whole lot here. For us who want to be biblical and maintain a biblical methodology, that's where I go to Hebrews here, where we're learning about the preeminence of Christ, that Christ is greater than everything in the

Old Testament. We don't want to go back to our old ways. We don't want to go to this strategy or that strategy.

We want to go to Christ. We want to keep him preeminent. We want to honor him and submit to him as Lord and Savior.

And so that's how we want to approach our operations, our church methodology, polity, church growth, if we have one.

So keeping in mind that people are coming to our gathering for a particular reason, how do we want to advertise ourselves?

Because we don't want to be secret sensitive, but I don't think that we want to be, we don't want to have any information out there.

Just be extremely vague and hope people come.

And when they get there, we'll somewhat teach them what we believe.

I think there's maybe a balance in the middle where we're not advertising our social club, but on the other hand, we're informing people of who we are.

So that when they're making their choice, because people are making a choice, when they make their choice, they know what they're choosing.

Does that make sense? Kind of. Okay. I don't know, we're doing things a little bit different.

We would be more than happy to have anybody walk into one of our worship services at any time, but really that's not where we're trying to reach people.

And I mean, that's kind of us, it's kind of our thing. We believe that the worship service is, that the main purpose of it is the worship of God's people on God's day.

Now, somebody wants to come in, fantastic, come on, we'll have you. Don't do anything funky.

We're certainly not going to do anything funky. We don't even have instruments, so we're going to be about it.

If you want something low key, that's us. But what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure that when we reach people, we're reaching people,

I guess our advertisement is, you're a sinner in need of a savior. Jesus Christ is the savior of anyone who will be saved.

You need him, you need to repent and believe. And that's what we're going with.

And from there, say somebody repents and believes, fantastic. Now you need to be a part of a local body.

We meet at five o 'clock on Sunday at the Red Door Church. Or if you're closer to the one down the way, we're down there in Walton at 11, coming to Sunday school at 10.

If you've never been baptized, love to put some water on you. You know, after talking to the elders, of course.

But yeah, we don't treat the Sunday services as an advertisement at all.

Because anybody who would be trying to choose us for a church would pretty much already know what they're getting themselves into.

Unless they saw the name Presbyterian and came over and wondering, why is there not a woman pastor?

And why is there not rainbow flags everywhere? We're not those kind of Presbyterians. So how do you make that distinction?

Well, it's a very conscious effort to go out the other six days of the week, or at least we choose those other six days of the week to go out and make sure that we're evangelizing.

So we have an open Bible study on Tuesdays. That's for our church and for anybody else who comes.

We've also just started one at a substance abuse rehabilitation center on Wednesdays.

So we're trying to reach people with the gospel. There's other different times where we'll go out, ask people if they would like prayer.

We set up a booth in the mall one time. Had people walking by asking if they wanted prayer, told them the gospel.

Invited them to come out and check us out. We preach Christ and him crucified every week.

So we're going to get a gospel message. Plus we build the gospel right into our liturgy. Because we know that we need it.

And if we need it, everyone else does too. So this is how we kind of make the distinction.

I don't know. It's not like we would ignore the spiritual needs of somebody who's not a believer when they come in.

But we're just, I don't know, we care so little about flash. We don't even really decorate the sanctuary.

We're kind of about as bare bones as you get. We kind of do it on purpose. Because we're not trying,

I don't know, we're probably an extreme case. But it does well for us,

I think, because when people do come, we know that they're coming for the right reasons. Or at least they think they're coming for the right reasons.

Or maybe they're not. I don't know. We have a, our bait isn't a bait and switch.

Like what you bite onto is what you're going to get. Right. Well, and that's kind of where I was getting at too.

You know, we don't want it to be a bait and switch either. And this is coming from me. This is my opinion.

And you can share with me what you think about what I'm sharing. But we want people to know who we are.

And when they're choosing for a church to come to, you know, I'm with you on not being flashy.

You know, we're not trying to do things to attract people.

But I think we should be intentional. If we're not intentional about who we are and letting that be known, then we're going to be susceptible to wavering between opinions.

And we'll never know where we are, where we stand. And people won't know who, when they're trying to choose, if they want to come here, well, who are you?

Well, you know, we don't know. We're wavering between opinions, you know, whatever. Whatever is popular now or whatever.

I don't know this this congregate comes up with. I don't know. But but I think we I think it's OK. We're very specific about what we believe.

Yeah, and I think we should be and I think we should be intentional. And I think we should be intentional about letting that be known as as well.

You know, you know, we we don't want to we don't want to have a specific niche.

I don't think, you know, I love I love Jeff Knoblet. And he

I went to a conference that he spoke at and he wanted to make sure.

I'm not really in these circles much anymore, but he was speaking at a church that was primarily.

Family, family integrated is the name of that kind of church, that style of church. And just as an example, a low family integrated church.

But he he warned everybody, the conference and everybody that would listen. You know, you don't want your your niche or your your focus to be family integration.

Our focus is the glory of God. And that should be the focus and aim of every church of Jesus Christ.

However, I think it's perfectly fine. Underneath that, we want to glorify him in sound biblical doctrine and letting letting people know where we believe and what we stand on and where we are in those doctrines.

And that may be family integration. You know, that may be in pedo credo baptism, you know, whatever it may be.

And I don't think it's a it's a church growth strategy. It's it's a I don't have a good word for it, but I think it's

I think it's an appropriate biblical strategy to to be intentional, to not waver, to to not be hidden.

But to just to be up front with with who you are as a church and where you stand, because people people are choosing where they gather.

Yeah, there shouldn't be anything that you try to not bring up.

Right. I mean, I don't know. We're we're we're a pretty, pretty open group.

You're going to first thing you're going to notice, you know, oh, did your piano player not show up this week?

No, we don't have one. We don't we don't use one. We don't we don't use instruments. Nonetheless, well, why not?

We have this this and this reason. Oh, I noticed that you sing from the Psalter. Well, we have this this and this reason for that as well.

You're not one of those dirty Calvinists, are you? Why? Yes, we are. We'd love to tell you more about it.

Yeah, I don't there should be nothing that you actually believe that you're ashamed of because you believe it because you believe that God has revealed that to you.

And if you believe God has revealed that to you, you should be up front and honest with Yeah, I mean,

I don't know. I don't know how we go about, you know, one or two minutes cramming the whole

Westminster Westminster conglomeration into somebody's earhole. But I mean, there should be nothing that we would shy away from.

Well, let me ask you this. It seems like it's easier for the Presbyterian church.

So you were specifically to be more specific because Presbyterians are going to be known to be more covenant theology.

Sure. They're going to be known for pedo -baptism. Yep. They're going to be known for Calvinism.

And from my understanding, a post -millennial eschatology. At least in my denomination.

Okay. So in the Presbyterian church, it's a little bit easier because those are some of the things that you guys are known for.

Sure. What's hard being a Baptist and being a Southern Baptist or going to a

Southern Baptist church, what's difficult there is that for so long, for purposes of cooperation, we let doctrine go to the side and we weaken its importance in our minds, in our gatherings, so that we can get along with as many people as possible, so that we can get money, so that we can support programs.

And so that's why it's so hard. It's much harder in the Baptist church to nail down those specific beliefs.

Because we're so cooperative. Sure. Even within your own church.

I know my experience in the Baptist church was we would have a doctrinal statement, but it was usually fairly basic.

And then if somebody asked you a question about why your church did something, it was usually, well, that's just the way we do it.

Nobody really had a good understanding of why they did stuff the way that they did, or why they believe certain things the way that they do.

Now, some people would, but even then amongst your deacons or your elders, you may get differing opinions on why you do stuff.

It's kind of like trying to nail jello to the wall, and they don't even bring the congregation into it. Because the congregation is going to be speckled with all sorts of different stuff.

Now, you have some individuals in the Presbyterian church that do that too, but we can always point back to these are our standards.

I think that's one of the importance of being confessional. Baptists have their own confession.

It's a really good one. They could come up with a new one. I think the Baptist faith and message is deficient in a few areas, but it's not a bad place to start if you want to go back and revise it.

You can go back to the 1923, 1927 version. That was pretty good.

Then hold to those things and say, this is our standard, and we're not going to move.

Was it the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship? There's a couple of other ones that have started to do stuff like that.

And people know that when they see that label or say we're particular

Baptist or whatever, they know exactly what they're going to get. Usually they don't like it, but they know exactly what they're going to get.

Well, let me ask you one more question on this issue, and then we'll jump into Hebrew. Do you think the difference that we just highlighted between the two denominations,

Presbyterian and Baptist, maybe stems from... And you mentioned one of the reasons.

You guys are more confessional, and you guys point back to that confession as your standard.

Well, Scripture is your standard, but the confession speaks to that standard. And so that's where you point back to...

But the Presbyterian Church also has a hierarchy that we do not have. Yeah, that's true.

And then do you think that the Baptists tend to more emphasize the priesthood of the believer?

And that would be where we maintain such differences in theology instead of nailing things down at our local churches?

No, because actually we have a fairly strong emphasis on the priesthood of the believer in our, at least in my circles.

We just understand that as New Covenant priests, so to speak, we've been given the church to go to, to be a part of, and that in that church, we've been given elders that we're supposed to make their job easy, and that they're supposed to give account for our souls.

We're supposed to submit to their authority. Right. So, I mean, while we still believe that every single person has the right to read the

Scriptures, to pray, to evangelize, to go to Christ on their own account, and they don't have to go through the pastor.

We also recognize that we are a group and that we've been given elders to lead us and guide us through this time.

I think one of the problems with, and this isn't necessarily a

Baptist theology issue, it's more of like a, how it usually just works out type of thing.

Because I would say that most Baptists would describe and define the priesthood of the believer much in the same way that I did.

But what I found, at least at my time in Baptist churches, it seemed that that meant, well, because I'm saved,

I can believe whatever I want, as long as I'm not some flaming heretic.

And even then, you probably just need to be quiet if I'm different. Because there's such a, almost like a radical individualism amongst

Baptists that, I mean, it goes, I'm not going to blame it on church polity, but it goes to the church level where, well, we don't have to listen to that church down the road or this church down the road, even if that church is right.

Now they're pointing out something that maybe you're doing wrong. Like, well, we don't have to listen to them because they have no authority here. Like, well, maybe not, but are they right?

Are they speaking from the scriptures? Especially in America. Oh my goodness. I mean, that bleeds over into Presbyterians, Anglicans, Lutherans, all the hierarchical churches in America, have some of the same stuff going on because we as Americans love our individual freedom.

And so it happens for all of us, but I've noticed that in the Baptist church where I think the practical, the working out understanding of the priesthood of a believer tends to be a radically individual faith, which the faith was never meant to be.

Some of the Presbyterian church polity tries to push that out of the way. I mean, we still have it. I mean, people are still individuals.

We're still, you know, people fight, they go their own way. They did that enough in the

PCUSA that they all went the other direction. So, yeah,

I mean, it's more of a human problem than a Baptist problem, I would say. Well, I think you were driving home the point of how

I was going to correct my thought there instead of priesthood of a believer. I think what you were getting at and what

I was thinking was autonomy is our weakness. Well, it can be.

Which in my mind is when I'm thinking about autonomy, it's where you were, what you were talking about.

We, it's kind of this Western American mindset, this individualistic mindset.

We don't have to, we don't have to bend the knee to anybody, any confession. You know, I have my set of beliefs and I don't have to submit.

Yeah, my pastor this last week preached a sermon. Hold on, hold on Baptist listener.

It was called a Catholic Counts. Speaking of the catholicity of the church, the universal nature of the church, whereas, you know,

Rob's church in North Carolina that preaches the gospel and believes in Christ crucified and risen from the dead for the forgiveness of sins, who, you know, administers baptism and the

Lord's supper, albeit deficiently. But brothers in Christ are truly brothers in Christ.

We don't seek to separate ourselves from them in the large scheme of things.

If y 'all need help, give us a call. We'll do what we can. If we need a hand, we'll holler over there and you send us what you can our way.

We are truly brothers in Christ. That is a very helpful thing.

It's something that our being a part of a denomination that has a structure higher than the local church breeds that.

But it doesn't mean that Baptists can't have that. Because I've seen, especially in local

Baptist associations, if you have a really good one, they actually do function almost like a small presbytery.

No, they don't because, you know, you can't get together and settle things and have it be binding on the other churches.

But it does at least help foster that brotherhood where, you know, maybe you will take each other a little bit more seriously because you're working together.

You've said that me and my guys are doing it all wrong, that we're going down a bad road and that we're going to be leading people to hell.

You know, you've never led us off the wrong path before. Let's listen to you.

Let's hear you out. Let's sit down. Let's have that discussion and figure things out. I think what your pastor was saying seems to me the heart that you and I have, and I think the heart that the other guys in the network have of brotherhood, unity among the church.

And it's sad, but in the Baptist church, even though we have our local associations, it seems like we're missing a lot of times that bond of love between one another.

Yeah, it can happen. I've only been to one

Presbyterian meeting. It was really cool. They all got along really well. However, I did hear that the meeting before I came, it got a little rough.

But they came to the next meeting, you know, and they held hands and they didn't hold hands, but they sang

Psalms and they got along because they knew that they were all there as brothers. Right.

All right, brother, you ready to jump into Hebrews? Yeah, 30 minutes into it. That was a good conversation.

I enjoyed that. And it may be helpful to somebody. Maybe it'll generate some questions.

But we're in Hebrews chapter one, and I think we ended up around verse six.

This last few verses that we're going to look at, it seems like chapter one is divided up into the last half, at least in the two sections, to which angel did he say or kind of speaking of or about or two angels.

And then the last half is, but to the son, he says. And so you have somewhat of a switch over of subjects.

Kind of, but not really. I remember back to verse one. No, I mean, you're right.

But hold on, there's more. One of the things that I've learned through,

I hate to say it like I'm old, through my years through the time that I've had to study is to remember what you've read before when you come to a new text, which

I don't know if you I hope that when I'm preaching through Hebrews six,

I'm still remembering what I preached on through Hebrews one. And I don't miss a connection or go off the rails or lose my context because it's been several weeks.

So Hebrews one, it says a long ago and many times and in many ways,

God spoke to our fathers through the prophets or by the prophets.

But in these last days, he's spoken to us through his son. Now, here's the thing. Who was delivering the message to the prophets?

And what is the word angel mean in Greek? Now, I think he's,

I think he's talking. It means messenger. Now, I think he's talking about spiritual messengers, especially because it goes down here in verse 14 and calls them ministering spirits.

So I think it's talking about spiritual angels. But I also think he's talking about the messengers, not only the prophets, but the angelic messengers that gave the message from God to the prophets.

Because some of the, some of the Moses spoke face to face with God, but some of these, you know, think of Ezekiel or some of the other prophets that spoke.

And he said, an angel had me here. An angel had me there. I woke up. The angel touched the coals to Isaiah's tongue.

Right. And you have Mary and Joseph. Right, right. Mary and Joseph, Paul on the road to wherever he was going,

Damascus when he was struck down and angel blinded him. He's like, ah, what was that?

Right. He couldn't see or anything, you know, John Cena. Let's cut that out.

I wish we were recording. We could cut that out. But when it comes in here to the thing about the angels, it's continuing that same idea.

The idea of the many and the one of the biblical theology, the hermeneutic of the

Old Testament scripture leading to Christ. No, like it says, Jesus told them on the road to Emmaus and Christ being the full revelation of all of these things.

So he's really jumping in there with the same context, same flow through the whole thing.

And he's jumping in saying, all right, number one, we told you we spoke to the fathers and, you know, it was at many times and in many ways through angels and dreams and all sorts of stuff.

Well, these angelic beings, these ones where whenever they saw them, they fell down and, you know, some of them worshiped and got told to stop.

And some of them were like, oh my goodness, what are you? I'm unclean. I'm a man of unclean lips.

You know, people have unclean lips. They saw the angels and they were fearful and they trembled. Those things that were so amazing.

And sorry, it was a bird clock that went off. I thought it was something else, but they were so wonderful and amazing and scary.

They were really, truly powerful beings that they were coming in contact with. And here he goes, he starts off, even the most powerful beings from the spiritual realm that came and spoke to those incredible men, the prophets that you've idolized so much, not idolized in a bad fashion, it's a bad word.

But you look to so much because they really did speak the words of God to you. Even those don't hold a candle to the

Jesus that we're talking about. Because the one that we're talking about paid for sins once for all, and then sat down at the right hand of the father.

And then we come in here, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

His name being Yahweh God is specifically, it is pointing out him being son.

Him being son, the sovereign heir of all things.

And as we see going, if you look into these passages that he lists, he's also talking about them being, or Christ being the ruler of these angels.

The angels are ministering to Christ's end, not Christ ministering to the angels end.

Christ isn't just one who is fulfilling the words of what the angels brought to man. He is the one that the angels were speaking of.

And I thank you for clarifying my statement there.

And I think that's the direction that I was going. That divide between the first half and the second half is basically putting angels, reminding them of the angels proper place.

And then the second half is reminding them of Christ proper place. Yeah, it goes back and forth.

Yeah. Because it does it in two different places. Verse seven, of the angels he says, he makes his angels winds and his ministers a flame of fire.

So it says that he says this of Christ, says this of Christ, says this of the angels. And then it says this of Christ, this of Christ in verses eight, nine, 10, 11, 12.

Then verse 13, it says, but to which of which one of the angels did he ever say, sit at my right hand.

He did say amazing things about the angels. They're wonderful and great and powerful.

And they certainly did the work of God. However, to which of them did he say this?

As good as they were. They are, you know, his winds, his flame of fire. Then it says, are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Now, don't be, remember, Eastern thought goes in circles. So those who inherit salvation after, after making atonement for sins, sat down at the right hand of the father.

That whole idea then enters into the angel conversation where it says that he becomes superior to the angels.

Oh, let me start up here because superior to the angels. He was a son. He was begotten.

The angels weren't like that. He has a scepter that's ruling and reigning. He, the angels didn't get set of them and said in my right hand until I make your enemies a foot spoon for your feet.

But in fact, the angels are ministering to those who are going to inherit salvation, which was procured by Christ, who then sat down at the right hand of the father.

So it makes a whole circle from start to finish. Right, right.

Hebrews chapter one, verse six. And when he again brings the first born into the world, he says, what does he say there?

What does he mean? And when he again brings the first born into the world. It's a, it's a, he's introducing a new text.

Okay. He said this in verse five, to which of the angels did

God ever say, you are my son today. I've begotten you or again, I will be a father.

You should be to me a son. The ESV reads. And again, when he brings the first born into the world.

So he's just introducing a new text. It's something else that was said. And I, and I like what you mentioned last time in verse five, how you understood today.

I have begotten you. So when he says first born in verse six, are, is he meaning the same thing?

Raising Christ from the dead. Yes. Okay. Yep. Yep.

Well, I mean, cause really, really the whole, where is it?

Verse. Oh, it's here in verse six, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, so really it's, it's not just his resurrection.

It's the whole of the incarnation, you know, from virgin birth to miraculous resurrection.

Right. When those events occurred, that was the, the firstborn being brought into the world.

That was today. I have begotten you.

Because he was, he was the son brought into the world fully and finally completely in his resurrection, but no less than his incarnation.

Now I will say this and John MacArthur got into this trouble in his commentary on Hebrews. He later went back and said, no, nevermind.

I didn't mean it. I was wrong. But he said that the son was not the son until the incarnation.

That's just wrong. And, and he, he went, he went back and said, no, that wasn't the case.

I was wrong about that. And he backed off, but I could see how you could come to that conclusion.

If you kind of take those verses out of context, but if you run back up into.

The first few verses that we were dealing with. He was, he was there at the creation of the world.

He was the, the firstborn was brought into the world. He was the firstborn before, before he was brought into the world.

Right. The firstborn was brought into the world. The begetting, the becoming that he did was not a, it was not a new thing that was happening to him.

It wasn't him changing. It was Christ accomplishing what was already true of him.

He was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So therefore he would come in time and be slain for the sins of men.

He was the son eternally is the son eternally, I should say. And so he had to come as son being begotten in the world and being brought into the world as the firstborn, which firstborn would only,

I guess, properly. No, that's a terrible word for it. Would only fully be realized, recognized, recognized in his resurrection, even though he's always the firstborn.

Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Did I lose anybody? Right. Lost me for a second, but hopefully that's.

I know this is a rabbit trail, but what you're talking about reminds me of a controversy that sometimes, or that came up before we're at Christ's baptism.

And some wanted to say he didn't become Messiah until at that point.

Right? No. Yeah. Now I can, I can see what they're saying. There was a sense in which he was, he was anointed at his baptism when the

Holy Spirit came down on him in the form of a dove and Messiah does mean anointed one. But just like he was the lamb slain before the foundations of the earth, just like we are presently seated with him in the heavenlies, but I'm sitting in upstate

New York. I mean, but somehow I am seated with him in the heavenlies. I never thought the heavenlies would look like upstate

New York, especially not in February. But, but for so somehow that is, that is true.

So it's just as true that Christ was always the

Messiah. Even if you want to say that his proper anointing was when the

Holy Spirit came down on him at his baptism, he didn't become the Messiah. He always was. Right.

I mean, Deuteronomy says as much. Right. No. And let, and let all the angels of God worship him.

That comes from Deuteronomy. That is a quotation from the song of Moses.

It's also in Psalm 97. But if you, if you look at verse or Deuteronomy 32, 43, it's the very last verse of the song of Moses.

Now there's a couple songs of Moses. There's the one at the time of time of the

Exodus. And then there's this one. No, the first one being singing to the

Lord. He has triumphed gloriously. The horse and rider he has thrown into the sea from Exodus 30 something, maybe 28.

I don't, somewhere in there. This one is at the end of his life. And he, he writes this song.

I'll back up a couple of verses and read it. Some of it, he's speaking as God.

He's not, but he's speaking in place of God. See now that I, even

I am he, and there is no God beside me. I kill and I make alive.

I wound and I heal. There is none that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear as I live forever.

If I sharpen my flashing sword, my hand takes hold on judgment. I will take vengeance on my adversaries and will repay those who hate me.

I will make my arrows drunk with blood and my sword shall devour flesh with the blood of the slain and of the captives for the long -haired heads of the enemy.

Now this, all we read in this quotation was, let all

God's angels worship him. This is a context of warfare and judgment and blood everywhere. It is a weapons of war and blood and in destruction type language coming through here.

But then the very next verse says this, rejoice with him, oh heavens, bow down to him, all gods.

Because the quotation from Hebrews is from the Septuagint, which says, let all

God's angels worship him. In Hebrew, it says, bow down to him, all gods.

It means the same thing. Speaking of the angelic spirits, it says, for he avenges the blood of his children.

He takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's land.

So when it says here in verse six, let all God's angels worship him.

These are the same angels that are being put into a battle to avenge the blood of the children of God.

Now that's just, wow. It's a whole lot more intense than just some angels playing harps on a cloud up in heaven say, hey, you worship him.

Oh no, like they're all coming from battle, like singing songs and bowing down to their king.

I mean, this is much more than harps in heaven. Let's go to,

I'm sorry, I got excited. Would you like to say something before I move on to the song?

Well, I was curious what translation you're reading from. The ESV. Okay, I'm in the

New American Standard 95. And it says, so rejoice old nations with his people.

And I'm also looking at the interlinear. And so where did you say it speaks of, you said

God's, your translation said God's? Yeah, it says rejoice with him, oh heavens, bow down to him, all gods.

I'm just curious why the difference in the translations there. Well, it's possible that, let's see, it's possible that certain translations took it from the, oh, it's because it's not in the

Masoretic text. This follows the

Septuagint, which I think is valid here because Hebrews quotes it.

So if Hebrews quotes it, we should allow it to be there as well.

Okay. But that's a whole nother conversation. What Old Testament text should we use?

Yeah, we don't have time for that tonight. We started late on Hebrews. But Psalm 97, verse 7 says this, all worshipers of images are put to shame.

Same idea as in Deuteronomy, back up into verse 5.

The mountains melt like wax before the Lord, before the Lord of all the earth, the heavens proclaim his righteousness and all people see his glory.

All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast and worthless idols. Worship him, all you gods.

And it probably says the same thing in Deuteronomy, if it was translated in the

Hebrew. But the word for gods there is Elohim. Right, because Elohim is plural for gods.

The Septuagint translation uses Angelos, which is angels or angel.

Because a lot of times that's what they're called. So when it says, let all

God's angels worship him, it's more than, like I said, it's more than fluffy clouded heart playing diaper babies.

It is ones who have been there with God in watching his vengeance being poured out, his judgment, the earth melting like wax, the blood of God's enemies being shed.

And he says, worship him. Now, this isn't an evil destructor.

This is one who is doling out true justice. So worship him. And this is a good teaching point from my perspective as well, because if the most commonplace where people talk about Elohim or that they see

Elohim, have a conversation about Elohim is when you go back to Genesis. When Genesis says, let's make man in our image.

And so that's a Trinitarian use of the word Elohim. Sure. But in other passages that uses the word

Elohim, which here is translated as God's, it's speaking of the heavenly host, the angelic realm, spiritual realm.

And remember, Jesus quoted the same word from, I forget where, somewhere in the

Old Testament, and used gods of men.

Yeah. Yep. Just a little explanation to help keep from getting tripped up when you're, when you see that word

Elohim used in different ways. Yeah. People will use Elohim in a lot of different ways.

And sometimes they just go off the rails. Yeah. Context is key. That's right.

That's right. All right. Ready to move on? Yeah, man.

Let's get through two more. Let's see if we can do that. And the angels, and of the angels, he says, who makes his angels winds and his ministers a flame of fire?

This comes from Psalm 104. Oh, by the way, if the writer to the

Hebrews was in a homiletics class that taught expository preaching, oh, they'd be in big trouble because this is definitely a topical sermon.

A great one, but it is definitely topical in nature.

Let's see. 104. We'll start at verse one. Bless the

Lord, O my soul. O Lord, my God, you are very great. You are clothed with splendor and majesty, covering yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent.

He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters. He makes the clouds his chariots.

He rides on the wings of the wind. He makes his messengers winds. His minister is a flaming fire.

So he makes the clouds his chariots. So he rides around in the clouds, which shows you that he can basically go wherever he pleases.

He is large and in charge. He rides on the wings of the wind.

So he goes and what is it? What is the wind? He makes his messengers winds, his angels winds.

So he shows up through the ministry of his angels.

His angels do his bidding. His minister is a flaming fire. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Who was it that doled out judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah? It was

Christ. But who was it that dumped the stones, so to speak?

It was angels. And so while he says in verse six, let all

God's angels worship him, the ones who watched Christ's true justice be meted out upon the earth.

So the angels, he says. They're the ones who do his bidding. They're the ones who accomplish his will by doing what he asked them to do, right?

Well, and one of the key words or phrases there, the reason why they do that is because, as it says at the beginning of that verse, he makes, he made them, they are his creation.

So therefore, that's their role in this, that they worship him, that they are his messengers, that they are his flames of fire.

They're his because he made them. Yep. And if anybody was wondering if Rob was right in his interpretation, he is, and I'll show you exactly why.

If you look at verse five, he goes into creation language. He set the earth on its foundation so that it should never be moved.

You covered it with the deep as with the garment. The water stood above the mountains.

That's talking about the flood. At your rebuke, they fled the sound of your thunder.

They took flight. The mountains rose, the valley sank down to the place where you appointed them. I would say the flood in the, not

Noah's flood, but the abyss, the waters that were over the earth and the spirit hovered over the waters. It's talking creation language.

So yeah, Rob's absolutely right to bring creation into it, because so does the Bible right there in the next verse down.

I'm just looking at the interlinear again. And for winds, the Hebrew is Ruach, which is in spirit also.

I was going to say in the Septuagint or New Testament Greek, would it be translated

Numa for spirit? Yeah, well, it could be. Could be. Yeah. It's definitely one of the ones that comes across.

Um, that one is pronounced with a little bit more at the end. It's funny because even when

I was in Bible college, they started a prayer group called Ruach.

And I was like, well, what is that? And even in our

Hebrew class, our Hebrew professor was like, no, there's some more at the end. So it's Ruach.

Ruach. Who would know that unless you've actually studied that word? Nobody. We're not going to hold it against you.

I'm just glad you didn't say Pneuma when you went to the New Testament. Pneuma. Pneuma. Silent P in there.

Which is interesting because Numa means breath, wind, spirit, all the same thing.

Right. And go back to the context, it could mean the

Holy Spirit, or it could be referring to angels, the spirit realm, spirit beings.

Sure. Humans are said to be body, soul, and spirit. Now, I don't know exactly what the difference between soul and spirit is, but if Jesus can divide it in chapter four of Hebrews, it must be different.

Must be different. Well, we got two minutes, and I had a question about, in verse seven, and his ministers, which

I guess would be the angels, a flame of fire. And one of the cross references was,

I think it was Ezekiel. Let me look at the cross references here. Ezekiel with a river of fire in the midst of Ezekiel 1 .13.

In the midst of the living beings, there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth, like fire bright, lightning was flashing from the fire.

Okay, that's not the reference that I was looking for. It is interesting because that's a description of the whirling wheels, which are angels, and the faces go one on each direction going this way, and they don't turn, but they move whichever way, and the wheels underneath it, and then the spirits sit in the wheel underneath it, and there's fire, and they dart to and fro upon the earth.

Right. Yeah, where the ancient aliens dude says it's about UFOs, but he's just completely wrong.

Well, I mean, maybe. Maybe. Maybe the UFOs are just angelic sightings.

Well, and speaking of that, well. They shot several angels down over the weekend in Canada.

Yeah, absolutely. We're not getting into that either. Unidentified. Oh, man, we could get into some conspiracy theories on that.

All right, we don't have time for all that. But I think what those guys are doing on that show you're talking about is what, and I'll get back to the verse, and I can't find it right offhand, but I saw it in the cross -references.

But anyway, I think what they're doing on that show is what maybe other ancient civilizations did, because you'll see cave paintings.

You'll see different kind of artwork. You have the mythology, the

Greek mythology, and it's, you know, the drawings are similar to the language like Revelation uses or the world, the language of the whirlwinds, where they are, they're drawing as a description of what they're seeing.

So, and they are, they're drawing these things and to describe them as beings that are other, that are greater, that come from the heavens.

And their features describe their power.

The pictures describe their character and who they are. You're absolutely right. And that is why this passage is so powerful, because you do have across all civilizations the depiction of either aliens or higher beings or gods or whatever.

And I really do believe that those are encounters with different, probably evil spirits.

Some of them may have seen, you know, true angels, you know, cherubim, seraphim flying around doing their thing.

We know that they have their place in government affairs and that they show up at big times big events that are about to happen.

Weird side note, don't read into it, but interesting. Right before that large earthquake in Turkey, there was a really weird cloud formation that was red and circular and really weird.

I don't know what or if it was doctored up or whatever, but that sort of thing has been happening since beginning of time.

People know exactly how powerful spirits are. And so did the writer to the

Hebrews. And so when he's talking about these spirits, these angels, he's saying, these guys that you know, that you've seen, that there's pictures of, that you've heard of stories where Jacob wrestled with the angel or probably

Christ or whatever else that you've heard and seen. All those wonderful things, all those terrifying things that you've recorded on, you know, paintings and walls and stuff.

Christ is infinitely more powerful than they. Yeah. Now that's really the whole point.

I mean, like we just summed up the rest of the chapter. Yeah. Yeah. Christ is infinitely more powerful than they are.

Verses eight and nine talk about him sitting on his throne, having a scepter, it being of righteousness and hating wickedness.

He lifts up righteousness, puts down wickedness. Down there in the next few verses, he's in the beginning of the foundations of the earth.

The earth will roll up like a scroll, like a garment. He'll change it off. The sin will be gone forever and he'll be left alone with perfect righteousness.

His years will have no end. And they never said to the angels, those things that are so wonderful and great and depicted in temples of Artemis and Jupiter.

They never had the father in heaven say, sit at my right hand until your enemies are made a footstool for your feet.

But of Christ, it was said. John Cena and Ric Flair in there.

I'm going back to my question about the the flame of fire.

I found the reference. It wasn't Ezekiel. It was Daniel chapter seven, verse ten. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him.

And then thousands upon thousands attended him. Ten thousand times, ten thousand stood before him.

The court was seated and the books were open. So that so that court of thousands and thousands were angels.

And then this this river of fire. Do you think that I'm correct in thinking that part of their ministerial work?

And I think you were alluding to this earlier when you were explaining it. Part of their ministerial work, service work was was judgment.

You brought up Sodom and Gomorrah. And yes, this fire is representing judgment.

Yes. Um, what is in Daniel? I was actually thinking of it in Daniel.

Yeah. Where the angel was coming to speak with Daniel. And he said,

I'm sorry, I'm two weeks late. I had to battle the prince of this kingdom over here.

I believe he was defeating the prince of that kingdom over there. Right. That's why he was able to get away because the prince was then defeated.

Right. But yeah, that's exactly what I was. I was thinking of Daniel when when we were talking about that.

Cool. Cool. Well, let's let's wrap it up there and just flow from that,

Dan, and share, share the gospel with us and I'll close us a prayer. Sure. The whole book of Hebrews talks about how

Christ is bigger, better and stronger than anything. The angels that are mentioned here were depicted as gods in ancient cultures.

Big, powerful, strong beings that could do things at a whim.

And the reason, the reason why it was, it's such a big deal that Christ is bigger and better than them is because they were created.

They were created and then these evil spirits fell into sin. They not only did that, but they tempted mankind into sin.

And as mankind fell into sin, it brought a stain of sin and a tinge of guilt over all of us.

So that we are all born with a guilty, sinful conscience.

But not only that, we take that and run with it. We're very good at sinning.

John Foreman wrote that song, both of our hands are equally skilled at committing evil.

And it is exactly Christ who is better and stronger than the angels, who sits on the throne of heaven, who waits for his enemies to be a footstool for his feet, who can cleanse those hands.

Who, as it said up here in verse three, after making atonement for sin, sat down at the right hand of the

Father. And so Christ, who is much bigger and stronger than any, any God, lowercase, any being in existence, the one who is the creator of the universe, paid for the sins of sinful man.

And because he's done that, because he's superior to those things, he calls us to lay down our idols, to give up on our gods, our old way of doing things.

Even if we call that God ourself, to take that, to lay it down, to trust in him.

And in doing so, we can find the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus, that as we turn to him, as we look at him and his supremacy and his perfect glory, his righteousness and his justice, his true justice, we find him to be a perfect Savior.

All of our sins are washed away. And the perfection of a new heaven and a new earth is a promise to us.

Because just like he's declared us righteous in him, he is doing the work of making all things new, of binding up the brokenhearted, of putting away sin, of making things that were broken whole again.

It's a wonderful, wonderful message of salvation in Christ. And if you don't know him, all of that has been told to you tonight or whenever you're listening, because that hope is for all men.

And if you believe, you trust in Christ, repent of your sin, that salvation is yours, free and clear, no strings attached.

Amen. Let's pray. Father, we come to you with our hands empty, our hands lifted, because we are in desperate need of you, and you are our only hope.

You are our only rescue. And we come to you because of your son and through your son, and we worship you and we worship him and we worship the

Spirit. We're thankful. We're thankful for this gospel.

Father, we're thankful for this book. We're thankful for Hebrews and these passages that we looked at tonight.

And Father, we thank you that through the Holy Spirit, you've lifted the veil and you're lifting the veil as you grow us in sanctification and you grow us in holiness to help us to see more of you as you're willing for us to do that, that we're not blinded and we don't see

UFOs and we don't see, you know, creatures and only describing things to the best of our ability, but you have allowed us to see your son.

You allowed us to see your word and you allow us to see truths from your word so we're not blinded anymore, but we can glory in your truth and we can glory in your son.

And as we're going to read as we get on into Hebrews, that you anointed your son with the oil of joy.

And Father, you give us that joy through your Spirit and you give us that joy through your son and we can have joy despite circumstances and we can have joy despite what's going on in the world because you're in control and you are victorious and you are winning and we are in you and no one can separate us from your love.

And so Father, we thank you for allowing us to fellowship tonight, get together tonight and have a conversation and learn from your word.

We pray all these things in Jesus name. Amen. All right. Thank you everybody for watching.

We really appreciate it. We hope you can join us again next time as Dan and I continue our conversation through Hebrews.

Remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ and continue to go share the gospel of Christ.