TiL- Hebrews 1:6-14

Hi, welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. Dan and I are going to continue Our conversation in the book of Hebrews. We are continuing in Hebrews chapter 1. We hope you will stick around and join us.

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I'm.

Looking forward to the day then we have so many supporters that I have to loop that music.

That'd be great. I'm looking forward to the day the accident that you accidentally click off of it. Let people see me dancing.

That's pretty entertaining. I like watching it myself. Well before we get into the conversation on Hebrews I wanted to throw something at you and I and I just briefly vaguely told you what I was gonna throw at you.

But something that I'm sure you've mulled over you've had conversations about with with people. I've had conversations about with it with folks and mulled over in my mind is is church growth and You know, it's a huge industry people make money off of it.

Churches decide. Excuse me their strategies and in different ways but I think. Think about Hebrews the whole book of Hebrews. Hebrews chapter 1. I think the direction that I'm going with with this church growth Thought in my mind is is really relevant to to Hebrews and the theme of Hebrews and what's going on there but um Dan if We're thinking about church growth.

We're leaders in churches. We Let's say we are the folks that are opposed to program Centered program driven churches program driven strategies. We want to be. We want to be biblically focused biblically driven.

Seek God and how he would have us to to operate his church and let him Drop the growth if you will. But if you think about it People gathered or come to a gathering of believers, which we call church.

For for they they choose a certain church for a reason. Okay, you go to a Presbyterian Church because of theological reasons, you know. And I go to a Baptist Church because of theological reasons, but then amongst your Presbyterian Branches and amongst the Baptist branches.

You've got to narrow it down and then once you get to that level you you you get to your local churches. Well, which of the churches are around me that's close to me. Do I choose which one do I go to so people are choosing to Travel and gather together with a group of believers.

For a reason. I mean they're choosing that particular gathering for a certain reason and I think that's okay for us to keep in mind that people are people are choosing to come to gather with us for a certain reason and For us who want to be biblical.

I'm using my hands a whole lot here. For us who want to be biblical and maintain a biblical Methodology. That's where I that's where I go to Hebrews here where we're learning about the the preeminence of Christ the That that Christ is greater than than everything everything in the Old Testament.

We don't want to go back to our old ways. We don't want to go to this strategy or that strategy. We want to go to Christ. We won't keep him preeminent we want to honor him and submit to him as Lord and Savior and and so.

That's how we want to approach. Our our operations our our church Methodology polity church growth if we have one. So keeping in mind that people are coming to our gathering for a particular reason. How do we want to Advertise ourselves.

Because We don't want to be seeker sensitive. But I don't think that we want to be. We don't want to have any information out there. You know, just just be extremely vague.

And.

You know, hope hope people come and you know when they get there will. Somewhat teach them what we believe. I think there's a maybe a balance in the in the middle where we're not. We're not advertising our social club, but we're also but on the other hand we're informing people of Who we are?

So that when they're making their choice. Because people are making a choice. When they make their choice They know what they're choosing. Does that one. Does that make sense? Kinda, okay.

I.

Don't know we're doing things a little bit a little bit different. We we would be more than happy to have anybody walk into one of our worship services at any time. But really that's not where we're trying to reach people.

And I mean that that that's kind of it's kind of us. It's kind of our thing. We we we believe that the worship service. Is that the main purpose of it is the worship of God's people on God's day now somebody wants to come in.

Fantastic. Come on. What have you? Don't don't do anything funky. We're certainly not gonna do anything funky. We don't even have instruments so. So we're gonna be about it if you want something. No low-key.

That's us but what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure that when we reach people we're reaching people. I guess our advertisement is You're a sinner in need of a Savior. Jesus Christ is the Savior of anyone who will be saved you need him.

You need to repent and believe and. That's what we're going with. Yeah, and from there, you know, so say somebody repents and believes. Fantastic. Now you need to be a part of a local body. We meet at five o 'clock on Sunday at the Red Door Church or.

Or if you're closer to the the one down the way. We're down there in Walton at 11 coming to school Sunday school at 10 if you've never been baptized. Love to put some water on you. You know tie for talking to the elders, of course.

But yeah, we don't treat the the Sunday services as An advertisement at all because anybody who would be Trying to choose us for a church. Who would pretty much already know what they're getting themselves into.

Unless they saw the name Presbyterian came over and wondering why is there not a woman pastor? Why is not rainbow flags everywhere? So we're not those kind of Presbyterians.

So, how do you make that distinction?

Um, well, it's a very conscious effort to go out the other six days of the week or at least. We choose those other six days of the week to go out and make sure that we're evangelizing. So we have an open Bible study on Tuesdays.

That's for our church and for anybody else who comes. We've also just started one at a substance abuse rehabilitation center On Wednesdays, so we're Trying to reach people with the gospel. There's other different times where we'll go out.

Ask people if they they would like prayer. We set up a booth in the in the mall. One time I had people walking by asking if they wanted prayer told them the gospel. Invited them to come out and you know, check us out.

Nope. We preach Christ in him crucified every week. We're gonna get a gospel message plus we build the gospel right into our liturgy. Because we know that we need it. And if we need it. Everyone else does too.

Right, right. So that this is how we kind of make the distinction.

I.

Don't know. It's not like we would we would ignore the spiritual needs of somebody who's not a believer when they come in. But we're just I don't know we care so little about flash.

Right.

Like we don't even like really decorate the sanctuary, right. Work. We're kind of about as bare-bones as you get. We kind of do it on purpose. Because we're not trying. I don't know we're probably an extreme case but.

It does well for us I think. Because when people do come we know that they're coming for the right reasons. Or at least. They think they're coming for the right reasons. Or maybe they're not. We we have a.

Our bait isn't a bait-and-switch. Like what's what you bite on to is what you're going to get, right?

Well, and that's. That's kind of where I was getting at too. You know, we we don't want it to be a bait-and-switch either. And this is coming from me. This is my opinion and and you can you know, of course share with me.

Hey, what do you think about what I'm sharing? But um. We want people to know to know who we are. And when they're when they're choosing for a church to come to you know, I'm with you. I'm not being flashy you know, we're not trying to do things to Attract people, but I think we I think we should be intentional if we're not intentional about who we are and Letting that be known then we're going to be susceptible to wavering between opinions and.

And we'll never know where we are where we stand. And and people won't know who when they're trying to choose if they if they want to come here. Well, well. Who are you? Well, you know, we don't know we're wavering between opinions, you know, whatever.

Whatever is popular now or or whatever. I don't know this this congregate comes up with. I don't know. But but I think we I think it's okay.

We're very specific about what we believe.

Yeah, and and I think we should be and I think we should be intentional and I think we should be intentional about Letting that be known as as well. Yeah, you know we We don't want to we don't want to have a specific niche I don't think you know I love I love Jeff Knoblet and and he I went to a conference that he spoke at and He wanted to make sure I'm not really in these circles much anymore, but He was speaking at a church that was primarily Family family integrated is the name of that kind of church that style of church and just as an example Love family you're an integrated church.

But he he warned every everybody the conference and everybody that would listen, you know. You don't want your your niche or your your your focus to be Family integration, you know, our focus is the glory of God.

Mm-hmm, and and that should be the the focus and aim of every church of Jesus Christ however, I Sound biblical doctrine and letting letting people know where we believe and and what we stand on and Where we are in those doctrines.

And and that may be family integration. You know that that may be in in pedo credo baptism, you know, whatever it may be. And I don't think it's a it's a church growth strategy. It's it's a I don't have a good word for it, but I think it's I Think it's an appropriate biblical strategy to be intentional to not waver to To not be hidden but to Just to be upfront with with who you are as a church and where you stand because people people are choosing where they gather.

Yeah, there shouldn't be anything that you Try to not bring up right. I mean, I don't know we're We're a pretty pretty open group you're gonna First thing you're gonna notice you notice. Oh, did your piano player not show up this week like no, we don't have one.

We don't we don't use one. You know, we don't use instruments nonetheless. Well, why not? We have this this in this reason. Oh, I noticed that you sing from the Psalter. Well, we have this this and this reason for that as well.

Um, you're not one of those dirty Calvinists, are you why. Yes we are we'd love to tell you more about it. Yeah, I don't there should be nothing that you actually believe that you're ashamed of. Because you believe it because you believe that God has revealed that to you.

And if you believe God has revealed that to you should be up front and honest with those. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know. I don't know how we go about, you know one or two minutes cramming the whole Westminster Westminster conglomeration into somebody's earhole, but I mean there should be nothing that we would shy away from.

Well, let me ask you this. It it seems like it's easier for the Presbyterian Church. So you were specifically To be more specific because Presbyterians are going to be known to be more Covenant theology.

Sure. They're gonna be known for Pedo baptism. Yep. They're gonna be known for Calvinism and for my understanding a Post-millennial eschatology at least in my denomination. Okay, so in the Presbyterian Church It's it's a little bit easier because those are some of the things that you guys are known for sure.

What's hard being a Baptist and being a Southern Baptist or going to a Southern Baptist Church? What's difficult there is that? For so long For purposes of cooperation we let doctrine Go to the side and we Weaken its importance in our minds and in our gatherings so that we can Get along with as many people as possible so that we can get money so that we can support programs.

And so that's why it's so hard. It's much harder in the Baptist Church to nail down those specific beliefs because we're so we're so cooperative.

Sure. I mean what. Even within your own church?

I.

Know my experience in the Baptist Church was We would have a doctrinal statement. But it was usually Fairly basic and then somebody asked you a question about Why your church did something it was usually well, that's just the way we do it.

Nobody really had a good Understanding of why they did stuff the way that they did or or why they believe certain things the way that they do. Now some people would but even then amongst your your deacons or your elders you may get differing Opinions on why you do stuff.

It's kind of like trying to nail nail jello to the wall and they don't even bring the congregation into it. Right because the congregation is gonna be speckled with all sorts of different different stuff.

Now you have some individuals in the Presbyterian Church that do that too. But we can always point back to these are our standards. I think that's one of the importance of being confessional. Baptists have their own confession.

It's a really good one. They could come up with a new one, I think the Baptist faith and message is deficient in a few areas. But it's not a bad place to start if you want to go back and revise it or you can go back to what is it?

The 1923 27 version. I was pretty good. Yeah so I mean there and then. And then hold to those things. Say this is our standard. We're not going to move. There's was it the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

There's a couple couple other ones That have started to do stuff like that and People know that when they see That label or say we're particular Baptist or whatever. They know exactly what they're gonna get.

Yeah, usually they don't like it. Exactly what they're gonna get. Right.

Well, let me ask you one more question on this issue and then we'll jump into Hebrew. So do you think. The difference that we just highlighted between the two denominations preterian and Baptist Maybe stems from.

And you mentioned one of the reasons. Y 'all you guys are more confessional and you guys, you know. You point back to that confession as your as your standard. Well scripture is your standard, but the confession speaks to that standard, right?

And so that's that's where you point back to. But the Presbyterian Church also has a Hierarchy that we we do not have that. Yeah, that's true. And then the do you think that the the Baptist tend to more emphasize the priesthood of believer and that that would be where we Maintain such differences in theology and instead of nailing things down at our local churches.

No.

Because Actually, we have a fairly strong emphasis on the priesthood of the believer. In in our in our at least in my circles We just understand that that as New new covenant priest so to speak We've been given the church to go to to be a part of and that in that church We've been given elders that we're supposed to make their job easy and that they're supposed to give account for our souls.

We're supposed to submit to their authority, right?

So I.

Mean, well, we still believe that every single person has the right to read the scriptures to pray to evangelize. To go to Christ on Their own account and they don't have to go through the pastor. We also recognize that We are we're a group and that we've been Given elders to lead us and guide us through through this time.

I think one of the one of the problems with and this isn't necessarily a Baptist Theology issue it's more of like a How it usually just works out type of thing because I would say that most Baptists would would Describe and define the priesthood of the believer much in the same way that I did.

But what I found at least at my time in Baptist churches, it seemed that that meant Well, because I'm saved I Can believe whatever I want as long as I'm not some flaming heretic and even then You probably just need to be quiet if I'm different because there's there's such a Almost like a radical individualism Amongst Baptists that I mean it goes I'm not gonna blame it on church polity.

But it goes to the church level where? Well, we don't have to listen to that church down the road or this church down the road. Even if that church is right now. They're pointing out something that maybe you're doing wrong like we don't have to listen to them because they have no authority here.

Well, maybe not but are they right? Are they speaking from the scriptures? And especially in America, oh my goodness I mean like that bleeds over into like Presbyterians Anglicans Lutherans all the Hierarchical churches in America, you know have some of the same stuff going on because we these Americans love our individual freedom and and so it happens for all of us, but I've noticed that in the Baptist Church where I think the the practical.

The.

Working out understanding of the priesthood of believer tends to be a radically individual faith. Which the faith was never meant to be. Some of the Presbyterian Church polity, you know tries to push that out of the way.

I mean we still have it. I mean people are still individuals. We're still no people fight. They go their own way. Yeah, they did that enough in the PC USA that they all went with the other direction. So yeah, it's just just it's more of a human problem than a Baptist problem.

I would say well.

I think you you were driving home the point of How I was gonna correct My thought there instead of priesthood believer. I think what you were getting at and what I was thinking was Autonomy is our weakness.

Well, it can be.

Which in my mind is when I'm thinking about autonomy, it's where you were what you were talking about we. It's kind of this Western American mindset this individual individualistic mindset. We don't have to we don't have to bend the knee to anybody any confession.

You know, I have I have my set of beliefs and and I don't have to submit.

Yeah. My my pastor this last week preached a sermon Hold on hold on Baptist listener. It was called a Catholic. Counts I'm speaking of the Catholic city of the church the universal nature of the church.

Whereas, you know Rob's Church in North Carolina that preaches the gospel and believes in Christ crucified and risen from the dead for the forgiveness of sins. Who you know administers baptism and the Lord's Supper albeit?

Deficiently. But brothers in Christ are truly brothers in Christ we we don't seek to separate ourselves From them. In the large scheme of things, you know, if if y 'all need help give us a call. We'll do what we can if we need a hand.

We'll holler over there and you send us what what you what you can our way. We are truly Brothers in Christ, right? That is a very helpful thing. It's something that art. Being a part of a denomination that has a structure higher than the local church breeds that.

But it it doesn't mean that Baptist can't have that because I've said I've seen. Especially in local Baptist associations if you have a really good one, they actually do function almost like a small presbytery.

Mm-hmm. No, they don't because you know, you can't get together and settle things and have it be binding on the other churches, but right. It does at least help foster that brotherhood where you know.

Maybe you will take take each other a little bit more seriously because you're working together. You're.

No.

You've said that me and my guys are are doing it all wrong that we're going down a bad road that we're going to be. Leading people to hell, you know. Never let us before off the off the wrong path before.

Let's listen to you. Let's hear you out. Let's sit down. Let's have that discussion and you figure things out.

I.

Think what I think what your pastor was saying is seems to me the the heart that you and I have and I think the heart that the other guys in the network have of Brotherhood unity among the church and.

And it's sad but in the Baptist Church, even though we have our local associations It seems like we're missing a lot of times that bond of love between one another. Yeah, it's.

It can be it can happen. I've only been in one presbytery meeting. It was really cool. They all got along really well. However, I did hear that the meeting before I came it got a little rough. But but they did.

They came to the next meeting, you know, they held hands and they didn't hold hands but they sang Psalms and and. They got along because they knew that they were. They're all there as brothers, right?

All right, brother. You ready to jump into Heber's Jeff 30 minutes into it. That's a good conversation. I enjoyed that and they would be helpful to somebody. Maybe it'll generate some questions, but we're in Hebrews chapter 1 and I think we ended up around verse 6.

This this light these last few verses that we're going to look at. It seems like chapter 1 is divided but divided up into the light at last half at least in the two sessions. To to which angel did he say or kind of speaking of or about or two angels and then the last half is but to the Sun he says and so you have somewhat of a switch over.

Subjects.

Kind of but not really I remember back to verse to verse 1. No, I mean you're right, but hold on there's more one of the things that I've learned through I Hate to say it like I'm old through my years Through the time that I've had to study is to realize just to remember what you've read before when you come to a new text, which I don't know if You I hope that when I'm preaching through Hebrews 6 I'm still remembering what I preached on through Hebrews 1.

And I don't know miss a connection or go off the rails or miss lose my context because it's been several weeks right, so Hebrews 1 it says. Long ago and many times and in many ways God spoke to our fathers through the prophets or by the prophets.

But in these last days he's spoken to us through his son. Now. Here's the thing who was delivering the message To the prophets and what is the word angel mean in Greek? That's not I think he's I think he's talking it means messenger now I think he's talking about spiritual messengers, especially because it goes down here in verse 14 and calls them ministering spirits.

So I think it's talking about spiritual angels, but I also think he's he's talking about the messengers not only the prophets but the the angelic messengers that gave the message from God to the prophets because some of the some of the Moses spoke face-to-face with God but some of these, you know think of Ezekiel or Some of the other prophets that spoke and they said an angel had me here and angel had me there.

I woke up the angel touched the coals to Isaiah's tongue, right? You have Mary and Joseph, right? Right Mary and Joseph Paul on the road to wherever he was going Damascus when he was, you know struck down and no angel blinded him.

He's like, ah, what was that? Couldn't see or anything, you know, John Cena. Guess let's cut that out. I wish we were recording we could cut that out. But When it comes in here to the thing about the angels, it's continuing that same idea the idea of The the many and the one of the biblical theology that the hermeneutic of the Old Testament scripture leading to Christ, you know, like it says like Jesus told them on the road to Emmaus and Christ being the full revelation of all of these things.

So he's really jumping in there with the same context same flow through the whole thing. He's jumping in saying All right. Number one. We told you he spoke to the fathers and he knows at many times and in many ways Through angels and dreams and all sorts of stuff.

Well, these angelic beings these ones where whenever they saw him they fell down and you know. Some of them worshipped it got told to stop and some of them were like, oh my goodness. What are you? I'm unclean I'm a man of unclean lips, you know people of unclean lips.

They saw the angels and they were fearful they trembled those things that were so amazing and Sorry as a bird clock that went off. I thought it was something else. But they were so wonderful and amazing and scary they were really truly powerful beings that they were coming in contact with and Here he goes.

He starts off even the most powerful beings from the spiritual realm that came and spoke to those Incredible men the prophets that you've idolized so much not allies in a bad fashion I mean, it's a bad word, but you look to so much because they really did speak the words of God to you even those Don't hold a candle to the Jesus that we're talking about.

Yeah, because the one that we're talking about Paid for sins once for all and then sat down at the right hand of the father. And then we come in here having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs his name being Yahweh God is specifically it is pointing out him being son him being son the Sovereign heir of all things and as we see Going if you look into these passages that he lists.

He's also talking about them being Or Christ being the the ruler of these angels the angels are ministering to Christ and Not Christ ministering to the angels and Christ isn't just one who is fulfilling the words what the angels brought to man.

He is the one that the angels were speaking of right?

And I thank you for clarifying My statement there and I think Well, I think that's I think that's the direction that I was going that that divide between the first half and the second half is Sure is basically putting angels Reminding them of the angels proper place and then the second half is reminding them of Christ proper place.

Yeah, it goes back and forth. Yeah, because it does it in two different places.

Verse.

Six verse seven of the angels he says. He makes his angels wins and his ministers a flame of fire. So it says that he says this of Christ says this of Christ. Says this of the angels. And then it says this of Christ this of Christ.

And verses eight nine ten eleven twelve. Then verse 13 it says. But to which of which one of the angels. Did he ever say yeah. Sit at my right hand, right? So he's saying he did say amazing things about the angels.

They're wonderful and great and powerful and they certainly did the work of God.

However.

To which of them did he say this as good as they were they are, you know, his winds his flame of fire. Then it says are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation.

Now don't be remember Eastern thought goes in circles so those who inherit salvation after.

After.

Making atonement for sins. Sat down at the right hand of the father. That whole idea then enters into the angel conversation where it says that he Becomes superior to the angels. Let me start up here because superior to the angels He was a son.

He was begotten. The angels weren't like that. He has a scepter That's ruling and reigning. He the angels didn't get Said of them said in my right hand until I make your enemies a foothold for your feet.

But in fact the angels are ministering to those who are going to inherit salvation which was Procured by Christ. Who then sat down at the right hand of the father, right? So it makes a whole circle from start to finish, right, right.

He. Hebrews chapter 1 verse 6. And when he again Brings the first born into the world. He says. What does he. What does he say there? What does he mean. And when he again brings the firstborn into the world?

It's a it's a he's introducing a new text, okay, he said this. In verse 5 to which of the angels did God ever say you're my son today. I've begotten you or again.

I.

Will be a father. You should be to me a son. The ESV reads and again when he brings the fought the firstborn into the world, so he's just introducing a new text. It's something else that was said.

And I and I like what you mentioned last time in verse 5 how you understood today. I have begotten you. So when he says firstborn in verse 6 Are is he meaning the same thing? Raising Christ from the dead.

Yes, okay. Yep.

Yep. Well, I mean cuz really.

The whole.

Where is it?

Verse oh.

It's here in verse 6 When he brings the firstborn into the world, he says so really it's it's not just His resurrection. It's the whole of the Incarnation you know from virgin birth to miraculous Resurrection right when those events occurred.

That was the the firstborn being brought into the world. That was Today I have begotten you The fruit because he was he was the son brought into the world Fully and finally completely in his resurrection, but no less in his incarnation now.

We'll say this and John MacArthur got into this trouble in his commentary on Hebrews. He later went back and said no, never mind. I didn't mean it. I was wrong. But he said that the son was not the son until the Incarnation.

That's just wrong. And and he went he went back in and said no. That wasn't the case. I was wrong about that and he backed off. But I could see how you could come to that conclusion if you kind of take those verses out of context, but if you run back up into the first few verses that we were dealing with he was.

He was there at the creation of the world. He was the the firstborn was brought into the world. He was the firstborn before before he was brought into the world, right? But the firstborn was brought into the world the begetting the becoming.

That.

He did was not a It was not a new thing that was happening to him it wasn't him changing it was Christ Accomplishing what was already true of him. He was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

So therefore He would come in time and be slain for the sins of men. He was the Son eternally is the Son eternally I should say and So he had to come as Son being begotten in the world and being brought into the world as the firstborn which firstborn would only I guess properly.

No, that's a terrible word for it Would only fully be realized Recognized. Recognized in his resurrection, even though he's always a firstborn. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Don't lose anybody right. Lost me for a second.

I know this is a rabbit trail, but it what you're talking about reminds me of a controversy that Sometimes or that came up before We're at Christ's baptism. And some wanted to say he didn't become Messiah.

Until at that point right. No.

Yeah, now I can I can see what they're saying. There was a sense in which he was he was Anointed at his baptism when the Holy Spirit came down on him in the form of a dove and Messiah does mean anointed one.