July 29, 2009

This is Chris Arns, and if you've just tuned us in, our guests today are Harold Camping, the founder and president of Family Radio, and Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and this is... And I'd also like to thank somebody, Peter Pierce, and the president of Family Radio.

It's great to have you back for part two of the debate, Mr. Camping. I can't hear him now. I've been hearing him okay. Welcome back to the part two of the debate.

It's good to be with you, Chris. I'm not sure what's going on with you. You're on your end, but you're breaking up a little bit, and then you sound good, and if somebody's playing with something, they need to stop playing with it.

Okay. Well, hopefully... Right now, you sound good, so if they'll just leave it right there, everything will be good. Okay. And...

Don't touch anything! Somebody keep this razor blade away from me, but anyway.

Who will be the first speaker?

Actually, we're going to let Mr. Camping have the last word during the fair to give Mr. Camp to White, who was the second speaker every segment yesterday. Today, James White will be first, and Mr. Camping will be second.

So for the first five minutes, five minutes from Mr. Camping, and then proceed with your first five...

The Authority of Scripture Versus Camping's Hermeneutic

Thank you very much, Chris. In Mr. Camping's book, We Are Almost There, we read, for example, anyone who follows the man-made grammatical-historical hermeneutic, which is utilized throughout the church world, will not be able to correctly understand many very important truths of the Bible.

This includes the Bible's teachings concerning the end of the church age, and the fact that the true believers can know much about the timetable and details of the end of the world, end quote. Mr. Camping's methodology of abandoning the original meaning of the text, the authorial intent, and how the original audiences would interpret those words, turns the Bible into a large pile of theological play-doh, ready to be formed into whatever Mr. Camping desires.

We should note in passing that the central doctrines of the faith are founded not upon Camping's allegory and numerology, but upon the sound exegesis of the original meaning of the text. This might explain Camping's confusion on the Trinity, and his repeated anti-Trinitarian assertions that Jesus is the Father, or the Holy Spirit.

And this is surely what we saw yesterday as we examined his allegations that God's wrath is upon the church, that Jesus died twice, his annihilationism, and his teaching that a rapture will take place May 21st, 2011.

Mark 4, John 21, and the Misuse of Parables

Yet Mr. Camping attempted to defend his abandonment of any meaningful method of exegesis by appealing to Mark 4, 33 -34, which reads,. And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

But without a parable spake he not unto them, and when they were alone he expounded all things to his disciples. Mr. Camping presents his exegesis of this text in We Are Almost There, page 4, where we read,.

The foregoing principle that Christ spoke in parables, and without a parable he did not speak, appears to be the chief means by which God assists the true believers to further understand the Bible. This is a gross misreading of Mark chapter 4.

Jesus did not always speak in parables. Most of the time he spoke with great plainness and without a parable. But even more so, Mark 4 says that he spoke in parables to unbelievers, not to believers. He provided plain, shall we say, historical, grammatical interpretations of the parables to believers.

So to turn this historical incident into a full-blown method of interpreting the Bible is plainly fallacious. Further, John chapter 21 tells us that the gospel was written so that people might believe.

Camping has misunderstood a specific use of parables as part of judgment upon unbelieving Israel, as if it is a warrant for him to abandon the original meaning and intent of Scripture, and this leads to all the rest of his teachings.

Let me present an argument using allegory and parable and see if Mr. Camping can disprove it. We know that family radio broadcasts all the world on the airwaves, using satellite, shortwave, regular broadcast signals.

Yet we also know that the prince of the power of the air is who? Well, it's Satan. So obviously and clearly, the Bible, which is only speaking of our modern day and really said nothing to all those who were originally used of God in its writing, is teaching that in the end days, those who use the power of the air, like family radio, are under the dominion of Satan.

Therefore, we should flee family radio. Now, I think that argument is bogus. It's nuts. But the point is, how do you disprove it? The only way to do so is to appeal to the original context and the original meanings of the words.

Mr. Camping cannot do this. He has abandoned the text of Scripture and turned it into a huge pile of disconnected words and phrases that he can reform into any shape he desires. So how can he disprove my argument?

All I have to do is say that God has revealed this to me, claim Daniel 12 mentions a sealed book, make that the Bible, though the immediate context of Daniel 12 said is not the Bible at all, say that we are in the end times, the Spirit has given me spiritual understanding of the book that is now opened, and who can argue the point?

No one, since I have now transferred ultimate authority from the inspired text to me, the inspired interpreter. And that is exactly what Mr. Camping does. Just this week on the Open Forum, callers have called in who have used the exact methods of interpretation, and I use the word lightly, to find out, for example, that Christ will come at noon on May 21st, or who found the number 21 in the Bible.

Mr. Camping's reply? He rejected them all. Why? Because he can refer to some external standard and unchangeable criteria? Of course not. The final authority for reading the Bible today is Harold Camping.

He told one caller on Monday that to do what he was doing was to abuse the use of numbers in the Bible. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. But we must understand that in the world of Harold Camping, there is no means of refuting his conclusions, since he is the final authority as to what any number or allegory in the Bible means.

And this is the exact position taken by everyone in the past who has sought to gather followers to themselves, such as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, William Miller, William Branham, Ellen G. White, etc.

We were warned against these men long, long ago in Acts chapter 20. Paul said, I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And from among your own selves, men will arise speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them.

To those who believe the apostles and listen to what the apostles said in Scripture, they will hear these words and flee from anyone who exhorts them to abandon the original meaning of the Scriptures themselves.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Dr. White. And now, Mr. Camping, you have five minutes.

Camping's Date-Setting and Numerical Speculation

Well, you know, I get into the event that you were used to be the year of Christ's return. You know, it has given us marvelous proof in the Bible of what we have been saved only by God. You know, years and years ago, standing in parables and speak, and we know, became flesh.

As we read in 1 Corinthians chapter dictionary, we have information, oh, very carefully following 35 years ago, God's mercy, that the flood occurred in the year 4990 B .C., 4990 B .C. And then, of course, in these latter years, followed the same.

Now, Christ gives us the proof of that. We read in 2 Peter chapter 3, he is saying, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and production of ungodly men. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about May 21, 2011.

But then God gives us a thousand years at the end of the world, and we find that in the end, it is going to be a thousand years.

Now, if the Christ could return in 2011, of course he could return in 2011. He could even return on May 21st, but he could just as easily return on the 20th or the 22nd or tomorrow for that matter. We need to recognize that by setting a date like this, Mr. Camping is saying he could not return tomorrow, and he cannot return the 22nd.

This is a violation of scriptural teaching. Of course Christ could return in 2011. That's the whole point of why we are not given the day or the hour, and no man knows the day or that hour. Jesus often spoke in other than parables.

In fact, the amount of parables in comparison to the straight didactic teaching of Jesus is very, very small. When it says he only spoke in parables, it was talking about in that particular context at that particular time.

It is just so plainly obvious to anyone who reads the New Testament that Jesus did not always speak in parables. We must recognize the different types of literature that are in the Bible. Yes, we compare Scripture with Scripture, but that does not mean that we treat the Bible as a contextless document of text to be put together in any form we want, where we ignore the original context of anything that we are dealing with.

Mr. Camping says that he knows that the flood took place in 4990 B .C., and that he has used the rules given by the Bible. Well, what were those rules? Parables. He does not know when the flood took place.

No one knows when the flood took place other than God himself. The Bible does not give us sufficient evidence. People have speculated, and they have put together numbers, and Mr. Camping takes apart numbers and says, well, the spiritual meaning of this number is this, and the spiritual meaning of that number is that.

Where does he get all of this? He does not get it from the Bible. He gets it from himself. And so he puts these things together, and he tells us that this all happened. When he reads from Peter, why is that flood the flood of Noah's day?

Now it was. That is what is in the context. But remember, we cannot trust the context. We cannot worry about what Peter originally meant. Why can't the spiritual man say that it is like the flood of the gospel over the world?

This system of interpretation leads to an utter collapse of the meaning of the text. You cannot go back and say, no, this is what it really says, because what you have done, as I said in my opening, is you have transferred the inspiration and the authority of the text to yourself.

It is no longer the text that has a meaning, because any of those words can have any meaning that Harold Camping assigns to it, or that any other teacher comes along and says, leave the churches, follow me, I have this latter day understanding, and that is exactly what every group out there over the past how many hundreds of years has done, has said, flee the churches, listen to me, I have this spiritual understanding that nobody else has.

And that is why Paul warned us against those people. In Acts chapter 20, he warned Timothy about them as well, and those warnings remain valid to this very day.

Well, Mr. Camping, you have three minutes. We're finding that there was a preacher of righteousness who was proclaiming that because the floodwaters are going to begin. Now Christ said, the Bible says, in 2 Peter chapter 8, how Noah is effectively preaching then, you have 7 ,000 years of the gospel in 490 B .C.

How many years are there from 4990 B .C. to the two numbers together? We get 7 ,001. We subtract one because there's no year zero, and we find exactly 7 ,000 years, right, numbers in the 4990 B .C. and in the 2011 B .C.

And not only that, we find in 7, about when the floodwaters began was 7, and lo and behold what the Bible says. And you can check this to find it was the 7 ,000 years. We have to understand the Bible correctly.

We've come to bring attention to it. Now incidentally, he doubles it.

Calendar Calculations and the Claim of a 7,000-Year Timeline

Dr. White, you have three minutes. Excellent examples just given to us of the inconsistency of this kind of allegorical interpretation and how there is no way for it to carry truth because it is not disprovable.

What was just pointed out was that the 21st of May of 2011 is the 17th day of the second month of the Jewish calendar. How is a Jewish calendar calculated? It's calculated on the basis of a 360-day year, not 365 like we use.

That's why they have to build a month into it every few years to make it catch up with the solar calendar. And yet elsewhere in Mr. Camping's writings, he uses, for example, when he came up with 8 ,723 years and he multiplied the things out, he had to use a 365-day plus the leap year to make the numbers work out.

So in one place, he's using a Western calendar and Western solar calculations of the dates. And then now he's using a Jewish 360-day year whenever he can just make the two of them match up. And I can guarantee you if they didn't match up, then he'd just switch from one of the others to make it match up.

This kind of writing has been around for a long time. The Jehovah's Witnesses were doing this back in the 1800s. Miller did it in the middle of the 1800s, which gave rise to the Jehovah's Witness movement.

There are shelves and shelves of books that have been written by people who have proven in the past that Christ was returning in the 1800s and in the 1900s, and all of them have had to find some way around of the clear biblical teaching that of that day and the hour knoweth no man, not even the sun nor the angels in heaven.

And I think we need to point out that Mr. Camping, in trying to explain that text, has actually even suggested that when Jesus said, nor the sun nor the angels, that the sun might be Satan. He says, well, if it's not Satan, then it's just an experiential knowledge.

This is partly due to his confusion of the doctrine of the Trinity, but again, context means nothing in these situations. You can take any number from anywhere. For example, he just said that a day is a thousand years, a thousand years is a day, so on and so forth, years and all these.

What was Peter's point there? His point was that people who were mocking the coming of Christ need to recognize that God works on a different timetable than us. That's not some kind of a system that you're supposed to insert into your favorite texts.

You can take any statement about any number of days or any number of years, anywhere in the Bible, and make it mean anything numerologically by abusing that text in that fashion. And on May 22nd of 2011, that kind of abuse and misuse of the scripture is going to be very clearly demonstrated.

And my concern is that the people who have been fooled by this will then lose their faith in the Bible, thinking that this misinterpretation of the Bible is, in fact, the same as the teaching of the Bible, and they are not the same thing.

Thank you, Dr. White.

A Day Is as a Thousand Years and the Abuse of Numerology

3, verse 8, it says, A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day. Why did God die in Genesis 4? Do you remember when John, and then the 7th, the 8th, the 9th, the 10th, the 11th, the 12th, the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, the 18th, the 19th, the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd, the 23rd, the 24th, the 25th, the 26th, the 27th, the 28th, the 28th, the.

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Closing Arguments on False Prophecy and the Need for Consistent Interpretation

This is day number two. Family Radio and Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on the theme.

Well, it doesn't look like as much of a debate today because it sounds like Mr. Camping is ignoring what I'm saying and just giving his presentation about 2011, which is understandable. It is not diligent work in the Scripture to abuse its original meaning and to turn it into theological Plato that you form into your own ideas.

We don't know the exact date of Christ's crucifixion. It could have been April 1st, but we don't even know that it was in A .D. 33. To build entire things that you add to the Gospel, need to believe these things as part of the Gospel, based upon that is pure subjectivism.

He says that we are carefully following the rules of the Bible. Well, as someone in my chat channel just noted, rule number one, ask Harold Camping. Rule number two, agree with Harold Camping. Those seem to be the rules that are here.

Where are these rules laid out in Scripture? In fact, even to interpret parables, to interpret parables properly, is to recognize that parables have a single meaning to them and to not get distracted in all the things that are on the outside.

So, this is not doing diligent work. Let me show you what doing diligent work is. Mr. Camping has been corrected by a number of people who have called to his program. He has recently embraced, or over the past few years, embraced annihilationism.

And when people point to Revelation chapter 20, verse 10, the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

As soon as somebody quotes that, he says, ah, but you see the preposition in Revelation 20 .10 should be translated to, not forever and ever, but to. And so that means it's going to have an ending when the eternal state comes into existence.

Well, I don't believe that Mr. Camping actually reads Greek. And if he did, then he would recognize that the preposition there is part of a phrase. The very exact same phrase that appears, for example, in Revelation 1 .18, where Jesus says, and the living one, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.

Exact same phrase. So, if we take his understanding of Revelation 20 .10, and his retranslation of the Greek, which no Greek scholar would substantiate, that would mean that Jesus will cease to exist at the beginning of the eternal state.

That's what you get when you start playing with the text of the Bible, when you don't actually know the fields that you're pretending to address. That's what happens. This isn't diligent study of the text of Scripture.

This isn't handling the text properly. This isn't giving due diligence to the lexical sources and the backgrounds. That's hard work. And it doesn't allow you to gather a bunch of followers around you who call you and ask you for your understanding of, well, everything in the Bible.

Because, you see, that means that when a man really handles the Word of God right, that means that there's going to be someone down the road, and in the next county, and the next city, who's saying the same thing.

And that's because God's Word doesn't change. That's what we should be doing. Thank you, Dr. White.

More Date-Setting Calculations and a Final Appeal to the Audience

...much of a debate to remember. You are making many information about. Indeed, we were talking about this, the two dates, April 1 and May 21, April 1, 33 A .D., and May 21, 2011. And a caller called me, and he said, you know, there's exactly 722 ,500, I believe, between those two dates.

And if you break that down, you're going to find it. And I'm going to tell you, 1978, as they're able, .2422 days. In fact, if you take the number of years, .2422, you will get exactly the number of days.

By 1978 times 365 .2, we get the number 722 ,499. To get us to May 21, we find that the number 22 ,108.

And now, Dr. White, you have three minutes.

On yesterday's open forum, a woman called in and asked what would happen if the May 21, 2011 date passed without anything happening. And Mr. Camping replied that we don't ask that question. That would be like asking what if the Bible is wrong.

The identification of Mr. Camping's personal opinions, his numerology, his putting numbers together, and oh, well, if we set this here, and then we divide this by here, look, this comes out here. The identification of Mr. Camping's personal opinions, based upon an unidentifiable, unprovable, incoherent method of allegory and numerology which was used to prove 1988, 1994, 1975, 1914, and every other false prophecy of the past.

To identify that with the truth of the Bible is a dangerous, dangerous falsehood. And that's why I'm taking the time to engage in this and responding to what Mr. Camping is saying. Mr. Camping gets to present this stuff for hours a day on an entire radio network.

In a debate, you'd like to have some interaction. I've presented a number of issues that already demonstrate that there's much to be questioned about Mr. Camping's accuracy in his handling of the Word of God.

But I wish that everyone in the sound of my voice, and especially those who are listening, who listen to family radio and are convinced of Mr. Camping's perspectives, I wish you to know that the truth of the Bible is a completely different matter than the abuse of the Bible by Mr. Camping.

And I hope you come to realize that before May 22nd of 2011. I hope you come to realize that even now, as you look at the Bible and realize that it had a meaning when it was written. And there have been many people who have come along over the centuries since and have said, oh, you don't have to worry about that, just listen to me.

I'm the one that has the spiritual insights. I get to choose what is and what is not relevant. Remember I pointed out that people were starting to use the same type of interpretation and they bring these things up to Mr. Camping, oh, no, no, no, you're wrong about that.

We don't need to worry about that. And you just move on. Why? Upon what basis? See, there is no consistent basis for saying, well, we choose these words and we put meaning into them and we assign these spiritual meanings.

But we don't do that over here. We're not consistent. I can do it to Revelation 20 .10 and I can change what the meaning of the Greek phrase there is so that I can maintain my annihilationism. Or I can do this over here to say that Jesus died twice even though it completely overthrows everything that the New Testament says about the atonement of Christ.

I can do all of those things. I get to choose what I read into and what I don't. What's going to happen when Harold Camping's gone? Who's going to understand? Is there going to be somebody else? Are you going to be looking for some new prophet to lead at that point?

That is the question. If the Bible does not have one consistent meaning for each generation, then what good truly is it?

Revelation 20 .12 states that when we break that down, we find that it is times 8, 7, 722 ,000. And then when we break that down into significant numbers, it's times 17, times 17. Now, God used words to signify the kingdom of God.

He used the word numbers or words, and he used them to find, in the Old Testament, where the Eccles Temple tax was paid at .5. It's illustrating the number 5. He used completeness. We find in Revelation 20 ,000 years, and at the end of 1 ,000 years, you'll be loose.

Completeness of God's plan, just like he uses the word to indicate completeness, to indicate completeness. Now, here we find in the, and he uses the number 17 for heaven. That can be shown.

Well, thank you very much. We're not going to be having any interaction evidently today as far as the criticisms that I've made and the refutations of the errors of Harold Camping, so I just hope that the people will listen.

In fact, I would challenge Mr. Camping to do what he did. He said on Monday on the open forum that they would be posting this for people to download and listen to. I really hope that he will do that and let the people decide who has presented a consistent case and who has not.

On Monday on the open forum, Mr. Camping said, we should never try to understand God. This was in the context where he made the statement that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Now, Christians have always believed that God's revelation of himself was the central aspect of what God has revealed, how he's revealed who he is and what he's done in Jesus Christ.

If Mr. Camping is completely confused about the doctrine of the Trinity, if Mr. Camping cannot even accurately enunciate it, cannot defend it from Scripture, if the very central aspect of God's revelation about himself is something that he confuses people about on a regular basis, then upon what basis, what reason would any logical or rational person have to believe what he has to say when he starts assigning spiritual values to numbers and multiplying them together and saying this happened on such and such a date when no one else in the history of the world has ever come to these conclusions and saying you need to believe this because if you don't believe this, then you're rejecting the gospel.

And on the basis of that, start teaching people that Jesus died twice, that the cross was not a perpetuatory atonement, that that had happened in eternity past, teaching people that they should flee the churches, teaching people they should not engage in baptism and the Lord's Supper anymore.

People, think about what is being said here. We have a man who has come up with his own method of interpretation. He recognizes that it is not one that anyone has held before him though I think Origen, the early church writer, came pretty close.

He managed to mess up interpretation for a long, long time. But no one else has come up with these insights. We have to create this idea that this book has been opened and that Daniel was actually talking about the Bible when Daniel's writings are in the Bible.

I mean, it's completely incoherent at its foundations. But we grab these things and we hold on to these things and we say that this somehow is what the Bible teaches. It is not what the Bible teaches.

It is what Harold Camping teaches. And when Harold Camping is gone, there's going to be nobody around to continue that on. And his followers will break up into all sorts of small groups, many of which will not ever return to the Christian faith and the Christian church because they've been taught that that has been abandoned.

It's under the wrath of God. And they'd also might well be embarrassed because of the things they've said about the church. But that's what we have going on here. And I think anyone who looks at what the scriptures say can see that this is the situation that we have.

Thank you, Dr. White.

Final Date-Setting Claims and the Broadcast Sign-Off

What numbers are. We can show that the 22 ,500, which is the exact number of days completely to the Elevation, roughly the same that we find when we begin at the Atonement, the Elevation is completed in every sense the right date.

It couldn't happen if we just had any old date and taken the study of even the church age, exactly 1 ,955 years to 1988 when it came to an end, 17 times 23. And 23 signifies destruction. And that matches death unto death.

Chris, just a quick question. This is the last three for me, I believe, right? Yes. Okay. All right. Well, in conclusion, I'm sorry that there has been no interaction in the program today. I think yesterday where there was interaction was very useful.

But, of course, I really don't believe that Mr. Camping's methodology of interpretation where he assigns the spiritual values, and he just kept going on, even though we pointed out that his use of Mark 4 is an error and Daniel 12 is an error and Revelation 20 is an error.

I've talked to men who have sat down and met with Mr. Camping, pastors back in the 90s, especially when he started teaching against the church and even before the 1994 false prophecy, and they've all said the same thing.

He's not open to correction. He simply doesn't hear it. It's in one ear, out the other. He's got his system, and that's it. And that's what we're hearing. And so I'm thankful for the opportunity, and I thank Chris Irons for arranging this, where anyone who really is concerned about the truth, and there are a lot of people who are not.

There are a lot of people who just buy into this stuff because they're in rebellion against the church or in rebellion against God's way of doing things, and so they're looking for reasons to be out there on their own, ransacking the Bible, looking for new spiritual insights, just like the Gnostics did in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

We still have our Gnostics today we've been listening to, a modern-day Gnostic on that level. There are a lot of people like that, but for those who truly do seek after the truth, hopefully to hear the incapacity of this position to defend itself, the incapacity of this position to do anything more than to just proclaim itself.

And anyone who's listened to the Open Forum knows this is how it works when someone calls up with an objection, with a counter-argument. Once they've made the first part of their argument, they get muted.

You hear, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. They get muted, and then thank you for calling and sharing. That's the system. That's how it works. And so today we've had the same thing. I've been on consistent mute as far as Mr. Camping is concerned, and he's just presenting his stuff.

And so even though I've documented errors on his part, his mishandling of the Word of God, misrepresentation of the original languages and things like that, we're not going to hear answers to that. And you're not going to get answers on the Open Forum because there are no answers.

Once you have this kind of subjective, allegorical, numerological, spiritualized interpretation, you simply have to accept that based upon the authority of the person making the claim. That's what Joseph Smith did.

That's what Charles Taze Russell did. That's what Mary Baker Eddy did. That's what Ellen G. White did. And that is what Harold Camping is doing. And so I, once again, just plead with those who would be confused to thinking that Mr. Camping's abuse of the Bible by ignoring its original context, languages, and meaning is relevant to the truth of the Bible.

Separate the two, because you will see that the two are very, very different things.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. James R. White and Mr. Smith.

Closing Remarks and Unresolved Numerical Speculation

Yeah, well, you know, the idea that, well, a Bible, or what does a Bible mean to the local people? Euphrates River and crew and your sea? He at all could. He could not know. Or who is the Bible? Quite fortunately in the process, I'm right to make all the mixtures.

The Bible. If anybody here is to criticize, then I'm grateful to be tied in. Just thank you. Do their own array. 1970, breaking that down.

Site www .endpoint. Very soon, God willing, S-S-H-A-R-P-E-N, and possibly we'll be on this broadcast.