January 30, 2025 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “NO KING BUT CHRIST: The COLLAPSE & BANKRUPTCY of SECULAR WORLDVIEWS (Revisited)”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you a happy Thursday on this 30th day of January 2025, and I am thrilled that,

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God willing, we are back finally to airing the broadcast live daily,

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Monday through Friday, with few exceptions airing reruns here and there rather than that being the predominant makeup of the broadcast.

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There were many factors involved for the very long hiatus. The primary one, as many of you already know, was my health.

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I've been battling congestive heart failure in and out of the hospital and then was traveling, was able to travel to Long Island, New York, my old stomping grounds, to MC, a conference that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio was hosting with First Love Ministries and First Love Radio at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, and we had as our keynote speaker

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Dr. Conrad Mbewe, my favorite preacher of all time.

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I think he's the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth, and that is not an exaggeration. He is pastor of Kibwete Baptist Church in Wissaka, Zambia, Africa, and the founding chancellor of African Christian University.

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You can hear those messages by all four of the speakers at that conference on YouTube.

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Just type in the YouTube search engine First Love Ministries 2025

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Pastors Conference and all of the videos will come up.

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Dr. Conrad Mbewe, thankfully, by the mercy and good providence of God enabled

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Dr. Conrad Mbewe and myself to visit a very dear longtime mutual friend of both of ours,

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Gary Wolfe, who lives or lived on Long Island up until last week, or two weeks ago,

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I should say. Gary was battling stomach cancer and Dr.

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Mbewe and I wanted desperately to see Gary because we knew it would be likely the last time we saw him face -to -face, this side of glory.

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We did visit him in his home where he was receiving hospice care at home.

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When we were there, his dear wife Cynthia was taking care of him and we were so glad that we had the opportunity to share fellowship with Gary.

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Dr. Mbewe ministered to Gary so beautifully, so compassionately, so tenderly, so biblically, because Gary was very afraid of dying, even though he was a true, regenerate, born -again brother in Christ.

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We have nothing but the utmost confidence of that, but people react to facing death differently, and Gary was very afraid to die.

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And it turns out our Lord had mercy on Gary and took him home to himself, safely, for eternity, a lot earlier than the doctors had held out for him in their prognosis.

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He died about, I don't know, to the expected date of his passing, and so I think that was just a pure act of mercy on God, because God, being omniscient, of course, knew that Gary was so afraid.

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So he brought an end to that fear fairly abruptly. But I thank all of you for your prayers.

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Before I forget, let me throw out another prayer, urgent prayer request for my sister

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Mary, who also lives on Long Island. She has seriously, dangerously poor circulation problems, which have resulted in a wound in her foot that is not healing.

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It has been going on for years, and so the doctors have finally reached a point where they intend to amputate either part of her foot or her entire leg up to above the knee.

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They have not yet made a decision on that. Please pray for my sister Mary that the surgery goes well, that she would be given by God a peace of mind and heart over this, that her faith would prove to be genuine, total trust in our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and his death on Calvary. My sister is a Roman Catholic, so I do have my concerns about where she's placing her trust, although she gives great evidence that she's putting her whole trust in Christ.

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Please pray for her. And I just thank all of you. The hundreds of responses

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I've been receiving from all of you, or many of you, I should say, encouraging me that you are praying for me and my loved ones, and I will never be able to thank you all enough.

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But today, I am thrilled to have an old friend back on the program. His name is

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Dr. Tony Costa. If you have been listening to Iron Sharpens Iron radio with any considerable length of time and consistency, his name should not be foreign to your memory banks.

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Dr. Tony Costa teaches biblical archaeology and the Gospels at the

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University of Toronto. He's an author. He is a conference speaker. He is a theological debater with a lot of expertise, especially in the area of Islam, but that is not the only topic over which my guest has a great depth of knowledge and understanding, and he has debated quite a number of different people over quite a spectrum of religious backgrounds and themes.

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And today we're discussing his new book, No King But Christ, The Collapse and Bankruptcy of Secular Worldviews.

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It's my honour and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio, my dear longtime friend, Dr. Tony Costa.

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Chris, as always, it's always, always a pleasure to be with you, brother. In fact, I miss it at times.

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Yeah, I miss your friendship greatly, and I hope that you and I are involved in projects in 2025, many more.

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In fact, let me just throw this out there, put you on the spot and embarrass you if you reject my invitation, but I am aware of a

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Nazarene pastor who would like to debate someone on my show on the ordination of women.

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He is a man, of course, I just gave that away by saying he, but he defends, as does the

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Nazarene denomination, the ordination of women, although he and many in his denomination are not liberal, although there is a tragic growing number within the ranks of the

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Nazarene denomination who are getting softer on the sin of homosexuality and other things, but they are, many of the congregations and leaders in that denomination are conservative, albeit their defense of the ordination of women.

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So he would like to debate someone on that issue, and he would also like to debate the theme of reaching total sinlessness of conscious sin on this earth while we are still alive.

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He does not like sinless perfectionism as a label for that because he believes that every

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Christian sins unconsciously about things, but he thinks it's possible for us to be totally free of conscious sin.

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So you think those would be two issues you would like to debate on my show with this

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Nazarene pastor? Sure, Chris, I'd be happy to. Well, I'll try to arrange that.

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Well, let me, as I'm even just speaking to you, give the audience our email address in the event that they'd like to join us with a question of their own.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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But, Tony, this phrase that those who are true disciples of Christ, this phrase beautifully rings in our ears, no king but Christ, but not long ago it became a phrase that evoked controversy.

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It was involving Candace Owen and people accusing her of using that as an anti -Semitic slur.

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Obviously, there are wicked individuals who could be rightly labeled racist, even though I hate that term because there's only one race, the human race, but there are people who are indeed white supremacists and anti -Semites who have used that phrase to bludgeon verbally the

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Jewish people and anyone else who is not a so -called Christian, although we would say that these people are not

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Christian at all. They don't understand the first thing about the Gospels and so on.

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They probably, very few of them, have probably even cracked open a Bible and read it. But even though this has been misused,

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I don't believe Candace Owen was misusing it. I have my own differences with her as do you on other issues.

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She is a Roman Catholic, a convert to Roman Catholicism, but that stirred up some controversy.

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But we believe that this is a beautiful truth that we are unashamed to declare.

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But what were the compelling factors that led you to start tickling the keypads of your computer to write this book?

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Yeah, I think that the kingship of Christ, Chris, is something that we don't emphasize enough.

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We do speak a lot about the lordship of Christ. We talk about the Lord Jesus as Savior and so forth.

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But His kingship is front and center to His identity. It is extremely important because it communicates

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His office as the supreme sovereign over all things. And so the idea of kingship, to many

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Americans, of course, the United States is a republic, and it's had a history where it rejected monarchy back in the days of George III and the

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Declaration of Independence. But the idea of kingship is so central to the identity, not just of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, but it is rooted in the Old Testament, where God is presented as the supreme, the king, the sovereign over creation, and the lawgiver, the one who gives the law, the source of all goodness and purpose and morality.

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And also, we need to understand that God created the first human pair to be

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His vice regents on the earth. So when He made the first human pair in His image,

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He gave them dominion over the earth and the fish of the sea and the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air.

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And that language of dominion and subduing is regal language.

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It's royal language. And even the terms image of God, it was a term that was used of the king in the ancient

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Near East, in the neighboring nations of Israel. The kings were called the image of the God.

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The kings were called the son of the God. And this type of language was also shared by Israel when they spoke of their king.

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And so the concept of monarchy, while it may be somewhat foreign to American ears because of the revolution and, of course, the republic, etc.,

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it is a central tenant of biblical theology. And it is used to speak of God as the supreme sovereign.

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It speaks of the primacy of Christ over all things. And even

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His messianic identity, Chris, the Messiah, the Mashiach, the anointed one, this is language that goes back to the monarchy as well.

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Kings were anointed with oil. And so the very word Christ or Messiah denotes the concept of kingship.

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It also denotes the Lord Jesus as the priest, because priests were also anointed with oil and prophets were anointed with oil.

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And so the triple offices of Christ, of king and prophet and priest, are subsumed under the title

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Messiah or Christ. So every time you and I say Christ or the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingship of Christ is implicit in that title.

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So what would be unique about the application of king to our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? There are some who would take that phrase in a strict sense that would make any earthly king anywhere on the globe illegitimate.

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We who are Americans, unlike you folks north of the border up there, have always, since the founding of this nation, having been liberated from the yoke of the royal throne in England, Americans have always had a disdain for the idea of a king here, not necessarily for other countries having kings, but there are some who would say no country should have a king anywhere, but especially we should never have the return to a monarchy and having a king or queen here.

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And then others say, well, the Bible doesn't prohibit other earthly kings other than Christ.

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So tell us, how is that latter view compatible with the fact that we have no king but Jesus?

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Is there a different realm in which we could say that with fullness of truth while allowing for a political office known as a king?

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Right. Well, kingship, Chris, is the oldest form of government that we have in human history.

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The oldest documents we have from Sumeria all speak of kingship as the rule, the government of the people.

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It is the oldest form of government and as I said, it was a concept that was shared with all the ancient

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Near Eastern folks that were associated with Israel. And of course, the question is, where does that kingship come from?

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Well, even the ancient Canaanites and ancient Sumerians, they recognize kingship came from heaven. And when it talks about kingship coming down from heaven and society for being established, the gods are the ones who established the monarchy.

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So when we look at the evolution of human history, and I mean evolution not in a biological

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Darwinian sense, but in the development of human history, we find that kings ruled.

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That was the way of governance, was kingship. And the

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Bible recognizes various human kings, of course, Nebuchadnezzar, Osiris the

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Great, Darius, and even Pharaoh was king of Egypt that Moses confronted. There are human kings, and the medieval period of Western Europe was dominated by kingship and the divine right of kings and so forth.

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And the Bible accepts this, that these kings have been appointed by God. That's why in 1

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Timothy 2 .1 Paul says that I request that prayers be made for kings and those in authority.

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And 1 Peter speaks about fear of the king and fear God and obey the king or the emperor in the first century context.

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So the book Revelation points out, Chris, that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, and not just King of kings, but Lord of lords.

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And so that implies that he is the king over all human kings, that they are all subservient to him, and they derive their right to rule through him.

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And it also implies that there are other kings. Correct, correct. In Revelation 1 .5

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it says that Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth. And so obviously it's there.

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Psalm 2, why do the people imagine of a thing, why do the kings of the earth, they've gathered together against the

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Lord and his anointed. And so in Psalm 2 you have this tension between the rulers of the earth, the kings of the earth, and they're opposing

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Yahweh and his anointed, his Messiah. And Yahweh speaks to them in his anger and says,

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I've appointed my king on my holy hill of Zion. And then he tells us that that king is his son.

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You are my son. And today I begotten, you ask of me and I'll make the nations your inheritance. So this idea of Christ being king goes right back to Genesis 3 .15

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with the seed of the woman. It develops over Revelation history where he is to come from Shem, the son of Noah.

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He is to come through Abraham's lineage. Abraham, of course, if you look at his life,

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Chris, Abraham himself was a prophet of God. He was a priest. He offered sacrifice to God. He was also a king because he was the ancestor, obviously, of David.

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And he also did battle with the kings to get Lot back, to recover

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Lot from the abduction of the various kings who took him. And if you look at God's election of Israel in Exodus 4 .22,

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he calls Israel his son, my firstborn son. And then in Exodus 19, verse six, he says, you are a kingdom of priests unto me.

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And so God had established that his people collectively would be his son. That is, again, this is the sonship language that is associated with the king and that his people are a kingdom of priests.

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And in 1 Peter 2 .9, Peter takes that and he says to the church, you are a royal priesthood, a chosen generation.

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And then, of course, in Revelation 1 .4 -5, it says that Christ has made us a kingdom of priests to serve his

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God. So just like our great priest king in heaven, our great high priest who is the priest king,

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Christ has established you and I, Chris, as a royal priesthood. And what that means is that through him, by the

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Holy Spirit, we reign with him spiritually at this point, spiritually, and then physically at his advent, his second advent.

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But what we are doing in Christ is we are reclaiming what Adam lost. Adam was given that dominion over the earth and they were to rule as God's viceroys on the earth.

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And, of course, they forfeited that by rejecting the king and by listening to Satan and basically thinking, well, we can be our own kings.

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I don't need God as king. I can be my own king and I could rule and determine my destiny.

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In fact, if Satan tempted them, they could be as God, knowing good and evil. Well, we're going to our first commercial break.

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And as I said earlier, if you have a question for Dr. Tony Costa on our theme, No King but Christ, the

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Collapse and Bankruptcy of Secular Worldviews, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, city and state of residence, and country of residence.

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We'll be right back. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a

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That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

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Lord's blessing and knowledge of himself. I'm Dr.

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Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

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Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism, titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.

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Joseph Morecraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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Bronx in New York City. For details on New Hyde Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

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That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New Hyde Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is my old longtime friend

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Dr. Tony Costa, and he is a prolific writer and a conference speaker and debater and theologian, and just I'm thrilled to have him back in the program to discuss his latest book,

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No King But Christ. If you have a question, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

32:58

give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

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Perhaps you could now turn your magnifying glass on your subtitle, The Collapse and Bankruptcy of Secular Worldviews.

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Yeah, that subtitle, Chris, is meant to show that all forms of government that we have had in human history and still have today, whether it's monarchy or whether it's oligarchy or socialism, communism, or even democracy, dictatorship, etc.,

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all of these have been attempts for humans to rule without God.

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That is to say that these are attempts for humans to maintain governance and maintain law and order.

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And even democracy, which is the best that we have right now, democracy is still not perfect.

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I mean, we have seen this, for example, in the past administration of Harris and Biden and how democracy sometimes can be manipulated and it can bring about sometimes results that are not conducive to the

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Christian worldview. In fact, the Founding Fathers of the United States, they actually despised the actual real definition of democracy and that's why they prefer to view it as a constitutional republic, because democracy basically, to them, meant mob rule.

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Yes, yes, it means the rule of the people. So yes, you're right. And that can go either way.

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So the whole argument there, Chris, is that if we look at the history of the world up to the present point, what we find is that governments, when they reject

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God as the source of law, which the Founding Fathers of the United States understood that God was the one that gave us human rights, that these are inalienable rights, that they don't come from ourselves or the government, that they are rights that God confers on us because we are his image bearers.

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When we turn against that idea of God as the sovereign and as the lawgiver, and this ties into kingship again, in the ancient world, the king was the lawgiver as well.

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And this is why in Deuteronomy 17, the king in Israel was to make a copy of the

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Torah. He was to write a copy of the Torah and study it so that he'd be able to administer justice.

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And this is where we see Solomon, for example, where God grants him wisdom to rule the people.

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But on top of that, God gives him wealth so that the Solomonic era becomes really the zenith of Israel's history until Solomon's apostasy.

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And so the king is the lawgiver, and he is to—he receives the law from God, and he is the one who is to enforce also the shepherds.

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In the ancient world, kings were shepherds of their people. And so you begin to see all of this starts to come together, that God chose

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David, who was a shepherd of his father's sheep, Jesse, and then God took him from the sheepfold and made him king over his people, a man after his own heart.

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And of course, Moses was a prince in Egypt, and then he ran off. And for 40 years, he was a shepherd of the sheep of Midian.

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And in the last 40 years of his life, God used him to become the deliverer of the people, to bring them out of Egypt and receive the law from God, etc.

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And so what we find, Chris, is that when you look at the book of Judges, Judges is like a template.

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It shows us what life is like without God. It basically says in the time of the

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Judges, this was a time when people did what was right in their own eyes. But then it makes this interesting comment, because there was no king in Israel.

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And so the king there in the book of Judges is being spoken of as the stabilizing foundation of order, law and order, and morality within the nation.

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And it's no surprise that right after the book of Judges, you have this little book of Ruth, and the last word in the book of Ruth is

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David. And so Ruth is already preparing us for the rise of the monarchy.

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She's a matriarchal ancestor of the Messiah, of our

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Lord. She's mentioned in Matthew 1 .5 in the genealogy, and she's also the matriarchal ancestor of David.

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So what I'm seeing with that subtitle, Chris, is that if you look at the history of the world, what we find is every time nations turned against God or rejected his law, what this has resulted in is abuse, absolute power, corrupts.

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Absolutely. You see this in the reigns of King Louis, the King Louis, the Sun King in France, right before the

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French Revolution, where they abolished the monarchy. You also see it with King George III, when

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America was part of the British colonies and the colonies were saying, look, no taxation without representation.

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If you don't represent us in the parliament, then why should we be paying taxes to the crown? And so you've seen abuses there.

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You see abuses with oligarchies. You see it with the rise of Marxism and how people's lives are, the sanctity of life is removed and so on.

38:42

And it all goes back to, Chris, a rejection of God as our King. And of course, in the

38:49

New Covenant, of course, the Lord Jesus Christ, the God -man as the King, the King of Kings. And when

38:54

I demonstrate in my book, Chris, as I deal with the subject of social justice and wokeism, how it has utterly destroyed the

39:01

West, I mean, thank God President Trump has been already moving to reverse the incredible damage that Biden and Harris inflicted on the

39:13

United States in terms of wokeism and transgenderism and the rot that was just in the

39:22

United States with all the illegal immigrants in the country committing crimes and so forth. And so what

39:28

I argue, Chris, is that all these forms of secular worldviews, they're all bankrupt.

39:34

They're falling apart. They're collapsing. Same here with Canada. We are in a very dire predicament right now with the fact that our parliament has been prorogued.

39:46

That is, it's been basically dissolved until a new leader, a new person is chosen to replace

39:53

Justin Trudeau. But Canada has just been reeling with one of the highest taxations in the

39:59

G7. Almost about 50 percent of our income, Chris, goes to taxes. And now with President Trump's tariffs that he is going to be enforcing,

40:10

I believe this Saturday, the 1st of February, this is just going to cause fuel prices to go up in Canada and so forth.

40:17

But a lot of that has to do with their responsible government. Our Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, is a godless man, a wicked man, has no regard for God or his law, has no regard for the sanctity of life in the womb or even in old age.

40:32

And so the transgenderism in Canada, you can be charged for hate crimes.

40:40

And so all of this demonstrates that we need to come back to our king.

40:46

And this is why I have called in my book, Chris, I speak of the final form of government that will be in place when

40:54

Christ returns. I call it theocratic monarchy. And so this is God reigning through his king, through the

41:01

Lord Jesus. And that is the one government that that scripture speaks of.

41:07

That is the government that the Book of Revelation predicts, the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of our

41:13

God and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. And so until then, Chris, we continue to see the destructive consequences of holding to views that divorce

41:28

God from the sanctity of life, divorce God from what it means to be human.

41:36

And I think we're seeing this right now in the West. I mean, the West is in huge, huge trouble.

41:41

By the West, I mean Western Europe, France, Germany, the United Kingdom. And of course, until recent, the

41:48

United States was really, really regressing. Okay, we have

41:56

Hargrove in Schenectady, New York, who wants to know, does anyone you know in Canada, especially from among those that agree with you, theologically and politically, do any of them give a serious thought to President Trump's offer to Canada to become a 51st state?

42:21

Yes, yes. And so for the record, I would welcome that as well. Really? I have no problem.

42:27

Oh, yes, I have no problem, Chris. We are really at a breaking point here.

42:32

And I'll be honest with you, Chris, as long as if we do become the 51st state, as long as we have a maple leaf on the flag instead of a star, so we'll have 50 stars with one maple leaf.

42:45

But to be quite honest with you, Chris, we were just recently in Florida, in the

42:50

United States, and we just we love America. It is indeed the land of the free and the home of the brave.

42:58

And I believe that the U .S. Constitution is the greatest piece of legislation in the world.

43:08

And I speak as a Canadian in saying that. So I personally would have no objection to it.

43:15

I know friends of mine here who would have no objection to it. They're just sick and tired of the woke government of Justin Trudeau.

43:26

He has really driven this beautiful country into the ground. And and this is why he is he is the most disliked person in Canada.

43:39

Wow. So I'm assuming then that that you have not had your your views, your high views of Donald Trump diminished by this public.

43:55

Oh, no, not at all. I think, Donald, I mean, yeah, he's not perfect, but I think President Donald Trump loved his country.

44:03

He puts America first. And that's what every national elected leader is supposed to do.

44:08

That's why they're they are elected for that purpose. And so I really respect him from the get go, affirming male and female are the the only two genders that we will we will we will hold to.

44:23

He's banning the the sexual transitioning of children where their body parts are butchered and so forth.

44:31

And I'm really happy to see that. I'm glad to see that RFK today in the hearings.

44:37

He put Bernie Sanders and and Pocahontas in their place after disclosing how much money they've been paid off by pharmaceuticals.

44:47

And so I'm seeing a government that wants to be transparent. I think their deportation of illegals is is absolutely crucial.

44:56

You know, Chris, up here in Canada, in Edmonton, in Alberta, there were some Canadians who had these signs up saying deport them all, that is deport all the illegals.

45:06

You know, the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which is the equivalent of your FBI, is now investigating these

45:13

Canadians just for putting up these signs, deport them all. Just think about that for a minute.

45:18

They had no problem with the pro -Palestinians calling for genocide from the river to the sea. Palestine will be free.

45:24

No problem with that. No problem with calling for the death of Jews. But when

45:30

Canadians simply say deport them all, deport all these illegals, the the the

45:36

Canadian federal police is now examining this as a potential racist racist crime, which is absolutely ridiculous.

45:47

And this, most of the folks that I've heard publicly, even those that would be conservative, are not at all in favor of any kind of joining of the the

46:03

Union of the United States and becoming the 51st state. But it's interesting that you have that that view.

46:10

We have, go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I, I, I, I, I agree.

46:16

And there's some of my colleagues here in Canada. Mr. Trump is saying what he's saying.

46:24

So, I mean, I would not be adverse to it. Huh. Well, that's, that's fascinating to know.

46:31

We have Prudence in East. Sorry, Chris, you cut off.

46:37

Where? You cut off a little bit. Yeah, you cut off too. Can you hear me now? Can you hear?

46:43

Yeah. Okay. We have Prudence in East Islip, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, does your book address the in -house divisions that exist even among very like -minded conservative

46:57

Christians regarding how we address these secular powers that attempt to be rivals with Christ?

47:07

There are radically different points of view on this that would include Christian nationalism, theonomy, and other views, which would be more of a separation of church and state understanding.

47:24

Yes, I do, I do. I don't go into great detail about that, but I do make mention of that.

47:30

I'm not a theonomist. I'm not a post -millennial or a reconstructionist. I, I, I don't believe that the church is going to build a

47:39

Christian nation for Christ to return. This, Christianity has attempted this before.

47:45

We call this theocracy. And they have attempted this before the Anabaptists in Munster tried to do this, and it led to very, very severe consequences.

47:56

And, and it, it led to their, basically their, they were stomped out by the

48:01

Roman Catholic and the Lutheran armies of, of, of Munster. And of course, the

48:08

Muslims have been trying to do this. The Ayatollahs have been trying to create a theocracy on the earth, an Islamic state and so forth.

48:14

And of course, we know Calvin did that to some extent in Geneva. But the problem here is it, it doesn't work.

48:21

The, the only time we will have a true theocracy is when the King returns. When the

48:27

King Christ Jesus returns, then we will have a true theocracy where Christ the King reigns and everything will be subject to him.

48:35

Every knee will bow to him. Every tongue will confess. So I love my, my post -millennial brothers.

48:40

I have great respect for them. I've spoken at their conferences. I, I don't hold to that.

48:45

I do believe, I, my view would be more akin to the, the two kingdoms view of, of you've got the kingdom of God, and then you've got these earthly kingdoms, and that we pray that, that thy kingdom come.

48:57

We do pray for the kingdom of God to come in its physical manifestation. But, but in the meantime, as Christians, we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

49:06

And we are called to, to keep governments accountable. Much like John the

49:13

Baptist called out Herod for taking his brother's wife to, to bed.

49:18

And he spoke against political corruption, as did our Lord when he, he spoke of Herod as the fox and so forth.

49:25

But I don't believe that the answer lies in converting Canada into a

49:31

Christian nation or the United States. It, it, it just, on this side of eternity, it, it, it does not work.

49:39

And I don't believe it will work. And of course, you mentioned the two kingdom view. That is not a monolithic group either.

49:46

Right. There are, there are some that take the non -involvement of churches in the political arena to a much more extreme than I believe you would.

49:59

Yeah. And. That's right. So none of those labels are represented by monolith.

50:08

There are theonomists who are rabidly opposed to many of the most vocal Christian nationalists.

50:15

And there are Christian nationalists who believe that that label is being misused by some of the people who identify that way.

50:23

So there, there is not really a, a, an agreed single definition on that.

50:29

That's right. And so for the sake of those of you who are listening, who may be vehemently opposed to two kingdom theology, as Dr.

50:43

Costas said, he does not really focus on those issues in his book. And also people have got to really expand their willingness to explore the views of other brothers in Christ.

51:02

Keeping yourself in a box and just being involved in an echo chamber or, you know, having somebody preach to the choir, that, that stunts growth.

51:19

And I'm not saying that we, I'm not saying that we should waste our time with a lot of the garbage that is available in print and in the media.

51:30

You know, obviously there's only 24 hours in a day and at least eight of those should be for sleeping.

51:36

So, but at the same time, I know, I know too many people that are overly sectarian when they adopt a view, they don't want anything to do with those on a, representing a different understanding of these issues and many other issues.

51:56

Right, right. Let me just make a caveat, Chris, is that while I'm not a theonomist,

52:02

I do believe that Christians are obligated to obey God rather than men, Acts 529.

52:08

And so that means that whenever the government violates a moral precept of God's law, it is incumbent on Christians to resist that.

52:19

And so if the government seeks to violate your Christian conscience or if it seeks to impose laws that violate

52:28

God's laws, then I think there is a place for Christians to say no and to resist wicked rulers.

52:37

Well, we are going to our midway break right now. Please be patient with us as it is always a little longer than the other breaks in the show.

52:46

And that is required of us because the FCC requires

52:52

Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida to localize geographically this program to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things they air in the middle of the show.

53:07

So please be patient with us. We, on the other hand, by the way, while Grace Life Radio airs local things, we air our globally heard commercials.

53:17

Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, and try to at least contact those advertisers to thank them for sponsoring the show.

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And also, of course, send in your questions to Dr. Tony Costa, to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

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That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Orrington, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is

01:06:18

Dr. Tony Costa, and we are discussing his brand new book,

01:06:24

No King But Christ. But before we return to that discussion, I just have some important announcements to make.

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Tony Costa, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

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U .S. site. So Dr. Costa, if you could, especially for the sake of those who tuned in late, summarize the main emphasis that you are seeking to drive home under this topic of No King But Christ, which obviously is a huge umbrella, and there could be many books written with that title or subtitle, but they would be involving different aspects of that.

01:10:16

So please try to give our listeners a handful of important truths that you are seeking to convey in this new book.

01:10:27

Yes. Well, speaking of Christ as King, of course, we want to convey the supremacy of Christ over all things, the primacy of Christ.

01:10:35

You know, Colossians 1 .18 says that in all things He might have the preeminence or the primacy.

01:10:41

And so what I do in the book, Chris, is I emphasize the supremacy of Christ over everything.

01:10:49

His kingship covers the whole universe. It covers our lives. It covers our families, our jobs.

01:10:57

It covers our church life, church worship. And connected to that kingship, of course, is our surrender to Him.

01:11:09

And there's a chapter, my first chapter begins with Christ versus Caesar, and I speak of them as royal rivals.

01:11:16

And at the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves, well, who is my supreme authority in my life?

01:11:21

Is it the president? Is it my family? Is it my boss? It's Christ, and Christ takes preference over all these things.

01:11:29

And so what I do is I also tie into this idea of kingship. I give it a biblical, historical treatment in my second chapter, where I talk about the importance of kingship as it relates to God and Christ, of course, and connected to that, the importance of morality, which is, again, connected to the

01:11:52

King as lawgiver. I also deal, Chris, in my fourth chapter in Clash of World Views, I talk about the various worldviews that seek to undermine the supremacy of Christ.

01:12:08

2 Corinthians 10, 3 -5, the apostle Paul is very clear that we take every thought captive to obedience to Jesus Christ.

01:12:19

Every thought that seeks to present itself above the knowledge of God, we take that thought captive and make it obedient.

01:12:28

So, again, that's regal language. That's the language of submitting an enemy to the

01:12:33

King, making them submissive to the King. I also deal with sexual identity.

01:12:39

That's a big one, of course, in the West, the idea of what makes a man a man, a woman a woman, what makes us, why are we made in these two binary genders of male and female?

01:12:54

And I connect that, of course, with God's regal image. That language of image of God doesn't just mean that we are special above the animal kingdom, but it carries royal connotations because the image of God was used of the

01:13:08

King. And then I talk about the so -called social justice that we see in the West today, that is pretending to be justice, but is not.

01:13:18

There's nothing social about it and there's nothing just about it. And I talk about how real justice is rooted in Christ Himself.

01:13:27

And that is why in the Psalms it speaks of God's throne. His throne is established on justice and righteousness, and so justice is closely related to this

01:13:37

King. I also talk about the battle for truth, why Christians must never, never, never, never compromise truth.

01:13:43

In fact, truth today, speaking the truth is the new hate speech in the

01:13:50

West. And just to speak the truth will end you in trouble. And as you know,

01:13:55

Chris, I've mentioned this before, I've lost a position at a seminary because of taking a stand for truth and calling out corrupt political leaders.

01:14:04

And then what I also do, Chris, is I talk about the whole concept of antichrist. This was a very important concept for Don Bunyan, for example, when he was in prison because he didn't have a license to preach under the

01:14:18

Church of England's rules. And he stayed there while his wife and children suffered tremendously.

01:14:24

And John Bunyan wrote a book, I'm not sure if you know this, but he wrote a book called Antichrist in His Ruin.

01:14:31

And in there he goes into great detail about why antichrist must be destroyed because he has defied the

01:14:36

Son of God. And in that work, Bunyan goes into great detail about how antichrist is the anti -king, that he is the usurper, the pseudo -king, the pretending king, the puppet king and so forth.

01:14:51

So what I do, Chris, is I develop that idea of antichrist versus Christ.

01:14:58

This is, again, the pseudo -king versus the rightful king. And I take it right back to Genesis 3 .15

01:15:05

with the seed of the woman versus the seed of the serpent and how those seeds represent those who belong to Christ, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent are those obviously who belong to the pseudo -king, the anti -king.

01:15:20

And then I conclude the book with also talking about the effects of culture Marxism on the church and society at large.

01:15:27

And what I do there, Chris, is I argue that our churches, to their own shame, have opened the door to things like critical race theory.

01:15:39

The Southern Baptist Convention came very close to voting on this, to bringing this into its churches.

01:15:49

And we are seeing already the devastation that that has caused here in Canada.

01:15:56

I've seen churches literally split because of this idea of critical race theory and white privilege and so forth.

01:16:03

So all of that to say, Chris, that these are all attempts to undermine the rightful authority of our

01:16:11

King Jesus Christ, the King of Kings. And that is why it is so pernicious.

01:16:17

And it is really diabolical at its root level. By the way, for those of you listening who were unable to attend a number of years ago, and perhaps

01:16:31

Dr. Costa can remind me of what year it was, because it was more than five years ago.

01:16:41

And I'm 62, going on 63 next month, and I'm just totally losing my memory.

01:16:48

But Dr. Costa was talking about the infiltration of Marxism into the

01:16:57

Christian church before most people were doing that, before it was in vogue to expose social justice, even before that really became a commonly used phrase of the left, but before the term woke was commonly used.

01:17:15

I'm not even sure you used the word woke in your entire presentation back then, because nobody... Right, no, it wasn't used yet.

01:17:24

Yeah. So this was an Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon held right here in Carlisle.

01:17:31

And our mutual friend David Wood, another apologist specializing in Islam, he filmed that event.

01:17:41

Yes, he did. And he also filmed the debate with St. Genes at the theater.

01:17:49

Yes, that's right. And so if anybody wants to look up that speaking engagement, you know,

01:17:56

I used to type in Tony Costa, Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon on Marxism, and that would come right up.

01:18:03

Now, it's right now, I was trying to do that, and it wasn't coming up. So I'm not sure if YouTube took it down, but...

01:18:10

Well, I did upload it to my channel, Chris. So if they go to my channel, Toronto Apologetics YouTube channel, it's still there.

01:18:17

Oh, great. So they bring up Tony Costa, Cultural Marxism. If they put my name down in Cultural Marxism, it'll be the first hit.

01:18:23

Yeah, that was a remarkable presentation. That was a mind blower and an eye opener to me, because as I was saying, you were exposing things that were not more commonly discussed as they are now.

01:18:43

They're discussed frequently, especially by people that you and I have high esteem for. But back then, it was kind of a taboo issue to bring that up.

01:18:55

And I was amazed to see even our Black brethren very pleased with your attack on Black History Month, exposing that as just another tool of the

01:19:09

Marxist leftists. Very much so. But, so,

01:19:16

Dr. Costa will repeat that information about his own YouTube channel toward the end of the program.

01:19:29

What advice do you have to our brothers and sisters who are waging war with each other over our differences on issues like Christian nationalism and theonomy and separation of church and state and obedience to the secular authorities?

01:19:54

To what level do we do that? There are really harsh battles going on verbally and in writing, people disfellowshipping each other, people cancelling conference speaking engagements that they were invited to participate in.

01:20:14

And I'm talking about people that you and I know personally and love. How do we, without compromising our beliefs, how do we—

01:20:24

Can you hear me now, brother? Tony, can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

01:20:31

I can hear you now. Okay. Yes. How do we cool down the temperature in regard to this heat that sometimes far exceeds light and the differences that we have?

01:20:46

Yes. Yeah, it's what I call, we minor in the majors and we major in the minors.

01:20:53

And I think the most important thing here, Chris, is we need to remind ourselves that the

01:21:01

Great Commission is first and foremost the gospel. We need to stop dividing ourselves over nationalism and all these other issues.

01:21:11

Our primary focus is the gospel. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, to the

01:21:19

Jew first and then to the Greek. So the gospel is our primary focus.

01:21:25

And we ought not to let the enemy use these tertiary matters to split us and to divide us, because, you know,

01:21:33

I take the pan theory as well, Chris, that the Lord is going to pan it out. When He returns, He's going to pan it all out and it's

01:21:41

His kingdom we're looking for. And we need to remain gospel -centered, gospel -focused.

01:21:49

The world needs the good news of Jesus Christ. What it doesn't need is to see Christians dividing amongst themselves and arguing over post -mill, you know, pre -mill, a -mill.

01:22:00

And not to say none of those things are important. They are. They have their place. But our primary focus is the gospel.

01:22:07

We need to preach Jesus Christ to the nations. That's the Great Commission. And so I think as long as we remain focused on that as our primary objective,

01:22:17

I think that we're on the right spot. I praise

01:22:22

God for that. Let's see, we have Alfred, who is located in Searcy, Arkansas, who wants to know, have you found there are people opposing your views because the opposition to what you are writing about is rooted in their eschatological differences from you?

01:22:50

No, I mean, I've heard— I was just going to say, that's not just post -millennialists that might have a different view.

01:22:58

There are dispensationalists, for instance, that might disagree with you. Yeah. Yeah. So far,

01:23:04

I'll be honest with you, Chris, I've heard nothing but positive remarks from those in all those camps.

01:23:12

So I've not heard any critique yet. I mean, it's not to say there won't be maybe a forthcoming book review.

01:23:22

But so far, I've heard nothing but positive commentary on the book.

01:23:28

And the endorsers that I chose came from a wide spectrum of eschatological points of view.

01:23:37

But they gave nothing but very high commendations for the book.

01:23:45

Well, praise God for that. We have

01:23:50

Terrence in Vestavia Hills, Alabama. And I'm wondering if Terrence knows my very dear friend, the

01:24:00

Reverend Roger Salter, a Reformed and biblically faithful Anglican minister there in that area.

01:24:08

But Terrence in Vestavia Hills, Alabama, says, what should we do to get our churches more involved in fighting the secular rivals to Christ's kingship without disobeying any biblical guidelines that blur the gospel and make it a secondary or tertiary issue?

01:24:40

Yeah, I think that as Christians, we do have an obligation to our elected officials.

01:24:48

And so what that means is that we ought to be praying for those in authority, as 1

01:24:54

Timothy 2 .1 -2 points out. And at the same time, I think that it is also helpful to stay in contact with your state representatives, those in authority.

01:25:06

Tell them that you're praying for them. Tell them that you want to see righteousness upheld.

01:25:14

You want to see the rights of the unborn protected. In other words, you are the salt of the earth.

01:25:21

You do have an effect on the earth. Jesus calls us to be the light of the world. And so it doesn't mean that we are just going to become hermits and hide away in a monastery somewhere and have no contact with the outside world.

01:25:34

I think it's important that, and again, you may differ on whether or not to be involved in politics or whether you

01:25:39

Christians should be involved in politics, but it is important for us to keep our elected officials accountable.

01:25:48

They are elected by the people. And so your influence on them your biblical influence on them is extremely important.

01:25:59

And also to remain true to Christ in the workplace. For example, people are under pressure not to discuss

01:26:08

Christmas or Easter, or they're under pressure not to talk about Islam or whatever it may be, or LGBTQ rights.

01:26:18

I think as Christians, we need to, especially the United States, you guys have a very powerful constitution that protects your freedom, which is the first amendment, and take advantage of that.

01:26:31

And again, don't be ashamed of your faith. Don't be ashamed of Christ. He was not ashamed of us when he hung naked between heaven and earth for you and I.

01:26:42

And so we ought to have the same boldness for Christ that the

01:26:49

LGBTQ have for their rights, so -called rights. And the Muslims in the United States who have no problem going to the streets and screaming intifada against Israel, they're not ashamed of declaring their position.

01:27:04

Why should Christians be ashamed? Yes, indeed. Well, we have to go to our final break.

01:27:10

And if anybody wants to join us with a question for Dr. Tony Costa, please submit it to chrisorenzen at gmail .com.

01:27:19

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us a first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:27:26

If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

01:27:33

That's chrisorenzen at gmail. I'm Dr.

01:27:41

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:27:52

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01:28:00

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:28:17

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:28:24

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:28:33

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:28:40

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:28:49

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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01:36:28

Well, Dr. Costa, we're now back to continue our conversation on No King But Christ.

01:36:36

And how do you personally, not only when you conduct yourself, having a dialogue with those outside of the body of Christ about this very topic, and not only how do you conduct yourself in that communication, but what recommendations do you have so people don't get the wrong idea of what you are pursuing?

01:37:04

And most of the time, whether it is a genuine objection or something that they're just using as an excuse to oppose us, the whole theocracy accusation is thrown up as you were earlier trying to distance yourself from that idea.

01:37:21

But if you could, what do you do and what do you recommend we do? Well, I think we need to recognize that until the

01:37:31

Lord Jesus Christ returns, there will be no perfect government. That's clearly taught in Scripture.

01:37:38

That's why we pray for His kingdom to come. And that's why the book of Revelation ends with the new heaven and the new earth and the new

01:37:45

Jerusalem, and with the promise in Revelation 11 -15 that the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our

01:37:52

God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever. And so, until that day comes, we know in part, as Paul says, and we prophesy in part, we are still here in this world, and we see through a glass dimly.

01:38:05

And we need to recognize, however, that notwithstanding the sinful condition of our world and our governments, that Christ is on the throne, that He is now enthroned.

01:38:17

He is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, and He's there until His enemies are made

01:38:24

His footstool. And then, at a time known to the triune

01:38:30

God, Christ will come again, and He will usher in that everlasting kingdom of peace that the church has been praying for for almost 2 ,000 years.

01:38:42

We also need to recognize, Chris, that whether people acknowledge Christ as king in terms of unbelievers, the outside world, we need to maintain, once again, that because the

01:38:56

Lord Jesus Christ is the God -man, He is, by virtue of His deity, the creator of all men and women, and that they are ultimately accountable to Him.

01:39:08

Whether they recognize Him as king or not, He is still king. And our prayer is that they come to know

01:39:19

Him, they owe their lives to Him, and that He is the one that they will stand before one day, either as savior or judge.

01:39:32

And so this king, as we're told in Psalm 2, that it says, kiss the sun lest he be angry,

01:39:38

O you kings of the earth, be wise. Kiss the sun lest he be angry, for his wrath is kindled in a moment.

01:39:45

And then it says, it ends with the words in Psalm 212, it says, blessed are all those who take refuge in him.

01:39:51

And so that is our mission, is to proclaim this king who has crown rights over all things.

01:39:57

And I love that quote by Abraham Kuyper, where he says, there is no square inch in all of creation that Christ does not cry, mine, it is

01:40:09

His by divine right. And so we need to keep affirming this,

01:40:15

Chris. And when I wrote this book, it had nothing to do with Kandis Owens. This was before the whole

01:40:20

Kandis Owens thing started, but we affirm Christ as king. Our unbelieving

01:40:26

Jewish friends who still have the veil over their eyes, as Paul says, when the Old Testament is read, they don't see him, they don't see their

01:40:35

Messiah, but he is still king nonetheless. And it's our prayer that one day, as Paul says, all

01:40:44

Israel shall be saved, that they will finally turn and recognize the one whom they rejected and whom they esteem stricken and smitten of God, that he is truly the king and the

01:40:55

Messiah of God. Okay. We have

01:41:02

Goldie in Ottumwa, Iowa. And Goldie says, isn't it really just a smokescreen when leftists accuse conservatives and Christians specifically of imposing our religious views upon an entire nation when they, in reality, are making efforts and always have made efforts to do the same thing, even if they refuse to use the word religion or religious to identify their ideology.

01:41:36

It is nonetheless a view that involves an understanding of God, even if it's his non -existence, and a correction or refutation or dismissal of biblical truths.

01:41:52

So therefore, their views are religious, no matter what they say. Yes, she's absolutely right,

01:42:00

Chris, because I address that in the chapter on the clash of worldviews, and everyone has a worldview.

01:42:06

The person that says they don't have a worldview, that's their worldview. They don't have a worldview.

01:42:12

Everyone begins somewhere. There's a starting point. And so everyone has a worldview. And D .K.

01:42:19

Chesterton was correct. When people stopped believing in God, he said, they don't just stop believing, they'll believe in anything.

01:42:25

They'll find a substitute. And so, yes, people have always sought to impose their worldviews.

01:42:33

You know, the communists offered the utopia, this world piece of no class distinctions.

01:42:41

But of course, the utopia is the communist version of the kingdom of God. They simply supplant it and relabel it by another term.

01:42:49

And the same thing with the social justice warriors. Their whole point is to eradicate Judeo -Christian principles, to eradicate

01:42:56

Christianity, and keep white people in an eternal, original sin that they can never release themselves from, of being guilty of the slave trade and colonization and so forth and so on.

01:43:10

And so it brings us back to, again, Antichrist versus Christ, that Antichrist is the attempt to undermine the true king and to rule in his place.

01:43:24

And so all governments have their own religious ideals, and they may not refer to it as God, but their ideals are substitutes for God and for his laws and so forth.

01:43:40

And so they're all, at the end of the day, that they are all counterfeits that try to rule in the place of the rightful king.

01:43:50

R. Praise God. And the things that we have in common in the body of Christ over these issues, as important as those differences are—I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the differences that amillennial and postmillennial and premillennial and pre -tribulationalist folks, partial preterists, futurists—we have differences when it comes to how we approach a

01:44:29

Christian's response to a secular authority that has certain demands upon us, and we have to cipher between that which is obligated by every believer to obey when a secular authority is setting down a law or a prohibition, and also recognizing that which is nothing but the demands of tyranny.

01:45:08

And I think that most of us in the body of Christ, in spite of our very strong differences on eschatology and how the obedience to governing authorities comes to play, we have a lot of commonality in these core areas, do we not?

01:45:30

R. Yes, we do. R. Not being a doormat to tyrants. R. No, no, of course, of course.

01:45:35

So we obey God and we oppose tyrants. R. And so we need to keep that balance, though,

01:45:42

Chris. You know, Romans 13, when Paul wrote Romans 13, he's writing when he had a very wicked emperor,

01:45:49

Nero, in charge of the Roman Empire. And the apostle Paul could say that he is a servant of God, that he is—the word servant there, diakonov, like we get the word deacon from—he's a minister of God.

01:46:05

As King James, I think, translates it, a minister of God to punish evil and to reward the good. And so we need to understand that all governments that exist have been put there.

01:46:16

They obtain and derive their authority from God. How they use that authority, they'll be held accountable for.

01:46:24

And so we need to obey the authorities because they are of God, Romans 13.

01:46:31

Peter reminds us again that we ought to fear God, obey the King, and we ought to pray for those in authority.

01:46:39

In my church, Chris, where I'm pastoring here in Toronto, we pray, being a constitutional monarchy in Canada, part of the

01:46:47

Commonwealth, we pray for the head of state, we pray for the King, Charles III, and then we work our way down through the prime minister and then the premier of our province and then the mayor of our city and then the military and our police forces.

01:47:00

And so we do that every Sunday because we're commanded to pray for those in authority, that we may lead peaceful lives.

01:47:08

And so there has to be that degree of respect for authority.

01:47:13

But at the same time, we know these authorities are here and gone the next day. We recognize behind all of this, ultimately, there is our

01:47:23

King, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who is the true sovereign over all things, to whom all things are subsumed and in subjection.

01:47:34

And it's to him that we shall give an account. And, you know, we look forward to the day where the prophet said that the

01:47:41

Lord shall be King over all the earth and his name shall be one. And that day will come. And we pray speedily that Maranatha, that our

01:47:50

Lord will come and that he will bring about the consummation of the ages and God will be all in all and be old and be glorified.

01:48:01

And if you could, there is a lot of abuse, probably especially by the left, but also those that would identify as conservative, some.

01:48:14

There's a lot of abuse in regard to the famous phrase, separation of church and state.

01:48:26

A lot of people wrongly attribute that to the constitution.

01:48:32

It's not in the constitution. What is in the constitution, and I know that's not a

01:48:39

Canadian document, but I know that you're familiar with it. Well, the

01:48:44

First Amendment teaches that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

01:48:56

The leftists always forget that second part. Right. But that's in regard to Congress making a law that establishes in a religion.

01:49:08

It is not meant to convey the idea that Christians and religious people in general are to remain silent in the public square when it comes to political issues.

01:49:22

And there are even conservatives who misunderstand these things. But if you could. Yes, yes.

01:49:28

I mean, yeah, the way I look at it, Chris, is that these are spheres of authority, that there's this political sphere, of course.

01:49:36

Obviously, there's the medical sphere, medical science. And of course, we have the kingdom of God that oversees all of them, the king.

01:49:46

But you're absolutely right. It doesn't mean that we are to stay silent or become like the

01:49:52

Mennonites that are so completely divorced or the Amish from the government. And we can talk about this,

01:49:59

I guess, another time. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that the government's made agreements with the

01:50:05

Mennonites not to become political and not to get involved. And that's a subject for another day, Chris. But you're absolutely right.

01:50:11

In separation of church and state, that idea does not mean that Christians should have nothing at all to do with politics or political influence.

01:50:23

And so we ought to keep that balance, keep that healthy balance.

01:50:30

Now, mind you, of course, our Baptist ancestors and the

01:50:35

Puritans of the Baptistic tradition were heavily influential in the drafting of the

01:50:44

Constitution, because we know that, as you know, Chris, Benjamin Franklin and Adams knew

01:50:51

George Whitefield. Benjamin Franklin would often go to the fields of Massachusetts to hear

01:50:57

Whitefield preach. And of course, they read Englishman John Locke, who also spoke about the pursuit of happiness and life and liberty and the concepts of private property.

01:51:12

These were men who were influenced by the Puritans of England who then came to, obviously, to New England.

01:51:21

And so they made it very clear that the freedom of religion is something that should be cherished and freedom of speech and but that never was meant to communicate that Christians were never to take part in anything political.

01:51:39

So yeah, you're absolutely right there, Chris. We have Heidi in Milwaukee, Oregon.

01:51:45

I didn't even know there was a Milwaukee, Oregon. And Heidi wants to know, do you have time to exegete what

01:51:52

Jesus was actually saying when he said to his disciples, render unto

01:51:57

Caesars that which is Caesars and unto God those things that belong to God?

01:52:03

There is even disagreement amongst conservative Christians over this. Yeah.

01:52:09

Yeah. So this goes back to what I was saying about fear, authority, governmental authority, etc.

01:52:18

And so what Jesus in the Gospels, what they were trying to do were basically, they're trying to frame them.

01:52:24

So they were basically asking them, is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?

01:52:30

And so it was a trick question because whichever, if he answered it in the affirmative, that it was right to pay taxes to Caesar, then they would accuse him of being in cahoots with the

01:52:40

Romans and that he was a treasonous Jew towards his own people. If he said no, then they would charge him with insurrection, that he was opposing the emperor and therefore he was guilty of insurrection.

01:52:51

What Jesus does is he splits the horns of the dilemma. So dilemma puts you between a rock and a hard place.

01:52:57

Instead of answering yes or no, Jesus splits the horns of the dilemma by saying, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God.

01:53:07

And so what Jesus is basically saying there is you give Caesar his due, you pay your taxes, you obey government insofar as it doesn't violate any of God's precepts.

01:53:19

And so those are two spheres of authority there.

01:53:25

You give to God what belongs to God. Now, you don't give to Caesar what belongs to God. This is very important. You do not give to Caesar what belongs to God.

01:53:33

God deserves our complete submission. We bend the knee to Christ our

01:53:40

King, not to the government. So we give to God what is rightfully his.

01:53:45

We don't give to Caesar what belongs to God. You give God what is his and you render unto

01:53:50

Caesar what is his. And so what that basically means is Jesus is not calling for social unrest.

01:53:57

He's not calling for a revolution. He's telling us to obey the authorities that are, give them what they are due.

01:54:04

Paul says, render unto them taxes to whom taxes are owed, honor to whom honor is due in Romans 13.

01:54:11

So that's basically the exegesis, that you give God his due and you give

01:54:18

Caesar his due. But that doesn't mean that God and Caesar are in the same boat. Those are two different spheres.

01:54:26

Well, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about your book.

01:54:33

And before I forget to let our listeners know, this is actually part two, or a revisiting of this topic that Tony and I had back in December of 2023, when we discussed

01:54:52

No King But Christ. So you could go to the archive of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and listen to that later on as well.

01:55:00

I don't know how much duplication we have done, but tell us what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this issue.

01:55:10

Yeah, I want our listeners to understand that, again, our American friends, the idea of kingship may be foreign or a subject of disdain because of its history in the revolution, but the kingship of Christ is central to his person.

01:55:26

It's a Christological identity marker. It speaks of his supremacy over all things.

01:55:34

And so the king in the ancient world, the king was the highest authority. That is why God was called king, first and foremost.

01:55:41

And so when we speak of Christ as king, what we're saying is that he is the sovereign, that he is the one who rules by divine right.

01:55:50

It is his right. It means that we submit to him. But the beautiful thing about this king is that for our salvation, this king set aside his crown.

01:56:02

This king left his throne above, and he became incarnate.

01:56:07

He became the servant king. He was not like the abusive kings who took and wielded incredible power to themselves, but this king set aside his power.

01:56:19

He set aside his prerogatives, and he became a servant. And this is what true kingship is about.

01:56:26

It's serving one another. The greatest among you, he said, will be he who serves. And so he came into the world to become our savior.

01:56:34

He came into the world to become like us, that is, flesh and blood without sin.

01:56:41

And he came to be our savior. The king is also the savior of his people. He's the shepherd of his people.

01:56:48

He's the one who delivers his people. And so he came down to where we were and lived a righteous life, a righteous life that you and I could not live, and he paid a debt that we could not pay.

01:57:01

And so this king was born king. He was acclaimed king of the

01:57:07

Jews by the Magi. He presented himself as the king of Israel as the prophets predicted that he would.

01:57:18

And this king on the cross bore the crown of thorns on his head. And he had the title above his head,

01:57:25

Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews. He was a king at birth, and he was a king at death, and he was a king in his resurrection.

01:57:33

He conquered sin and death. And this is the difference between our

01:57:38

Lord Jesus Christ, folks, is this, is that all kings are born human and then become kings.

01:57:45

But he is the only king who was always king but became human.

01:57:50

And he came to, again, pay the penalty of our sins that we were unable to, we could never seek pardon in and of ourselves.

01:58:01

He took the penalty upon himself. The king took the penalty of the subjects upon himself, dies, rises again, and he ascended into heaven.

01:58:11

His ascension was his coronation. At that point, that's where the father said, sit at my right hand. The Lord said to my

01:58:17

Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. And so the question is, do you know this king?

01:58:25

Do you know this king today? He is the only true king. He is a merciful king, a compassionate king, not an abusive king.

01:58:33

And he has graciously called us to himself, and he's made us a kingdom of priests.

01:58:40

He has made us a royal priesthood to share with him and ultimately to share in his glory in the future to reign with him.

01:58:47

And so if you don't know this king, today is the day. I pray that he will be your savior, not your judge.

01:58:54

Remember what happened in Washington, D .C. Our lives are, we are on borrowed time. Our lives can be taken from us at any moment.

01:59:01

All those folks in that American Airline flight did not know that today would have been their last day on this planet.

01:59:07

So always be ready because we have to give an account, and I pray that you come to know him as savior today.

01:59:15

Amen. And could you please remind our listeners how they can purchase your book and also how they can visit your

01:59:22

YouTube channel? Yeah. The book is available on Amazon. So if you're in the

01:59:27

United States, amazon .com, just do a search, Tony Costa, no king but Christ.

01:59:34

In Canada, it's amazon .ca. And of course, you can get it anywhere you have internet access.

01:59:39

My YouTube channel is Toronto Apologetics. Just go to YouTube, punch in Tony Costa and Toronto, and it'll pop up.

01:59:47

It'll be the first hit. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater savior than you are a sinner.