Shooter Manifesto, Trump's IVF and Abortion Positions, & Answering Critics

Conversations That Matter

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We are live on the

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Conversations That Matter podcast. Let's start with the big topic right now, shall we? I have more than enough information to do probably three podcasts today.

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So we're not going to get to all of it, I don't think. But of course, the big news today is this

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Nashville shooter manifesto, Audrey Hale. I read a few articles on this.

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This is the one from Not The Bee. They touch some of the highlights of this. I should also note, TruthScript is going to have an article dropping tonight, as I understand, on this particular issue as well.

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So I'm not writing that article, but that will be coming out. The article says that there are 90 pages that you can download.

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I haven't gone through all 90. I did try to download them and had some trouble. So I've seen, I've seen like maybe 10 or 15 of the pages, the ones that have been gaining more traction.

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The opening page begins with Darkness and Everybody Hurts, followed by Religion Won't Save. Here's a picture, of course, with the stars and the

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TN logo is for the Tennessee star. So that is not obviously part of the journal, but the rest of it is.

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And just if you have kids, if you're driving, listening to this or something, just I want to warn you that some of this stuff,

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I'm going to try to be, you know, edit it as much as I can, but I can't control everything that's going to come up on the screen.

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There's some sexually provocative or explicit, I should say, language, of course. You have a lot of anti -white language.

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I understand that some of the other articles I was reading say that the term white privilege comes up, but she talks about no brown girls, no love.

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I am nothing. Brown love is the most beautiful. Brown girls have the nicest skin, especially yours.

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Rather to touch it, I'd die. I hate my thoughts.

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This is, I actually agree. I didn't hear the clip, but Jack Posobiec went out there and said, this is demonic.

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And I would agree. I think this is demonic. This is a very twisted mind, somewhat influenced by some very twisted things, saying things that some are calling it self -hatred, but it's really a hatred at God.

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It's a hatred at the way that the creator made this person. Audrey Hale does not like the way that God made her, and that includes not just her race or ethnicity, but also her gender.

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White privilege, there it is. White privilege, arrow, there's an arrow, white privilege to embarrassment of self.

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This is, I think, the crux of the issue. Audrey Hale was brainwashed essentially by leftist propaganda, godless propaganda, propaganda against the created order, propaganda that made her think that she was somehow inferior and not in her right, but not who

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God created her to be, not who she should be in an unfair situation somehow, in a less morally upright situation, just because of the way that she was created.

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And this inspired her to lash out against the order that God made in the form of other people.

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There's language in here about her wanting her dad dead. There's other violent language, and it's the mental, it's rantings, it's the rantings and ravings of a very mentally disturbed person, but not just mentally disturbed, evil.

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And apparently there's a lot more. There's videos, there's two flash drives, there's, from what

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I understand, I think there's 900 more pages, something like that, of information that has yet to be released.

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But that's who Audrey Hale is. When I called a lady or ma 'am, it makes me not want to exist.

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The body in me exists only to me. I'm just tired of being called and identified by a gender

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I am not at all. This is so sad.

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So now, because of you, I wish death on myself, because of the pure hatred of my female gender with no rights, anyone's country is an expletive dictatorship.

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If God won't give me a boy body in heaven, then Jesus is, and then she uses another colorful word there.

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I don't know how much more I want to go on this. It's just, the whole thing is sad, the whole thing is terrible, and it,

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I think, does inform us about some of the motives of this, at least where she was coming from, where her headspace was at.

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She longed for, I guess, being in heaven with this girl. I mean, there's some very explicit stuff about wanting to do,

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I guess, particular sexual things with a black girl, and that's what we have so far, at least those are the highlights that are being passed around today.

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So the curious thing, I suppose, is why in the world were Southern Baptists, and I've talked about this before, but why was their money that they give to the cooperative program, some of which goes to the

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Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, why did it go to suppress this? Why was

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Brent Leatherwood, the head of that organization, so concerned if any of this information got out?

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Here's Brent Leatherwood from a press conference, I believe this was a little over here, maybe about a year and a half ago or so.

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And lastly, I want to speak directly to the person who took these images and released them.

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You are a viper. You're a member of the law enforcement community.

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And you have released evidence that was gathered in our most vulnerable moment.

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You have now allowed this woman who terrorized our family with bullets to be able to now terrorize us with words from the grave.

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How could you? What kind of a person does this?

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I've had a number of conversations today with Metro Police, the

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TBI, others. Metro has assured me that this is a felony, that the person who did this would be brought to justice, they would be arrested, and that absolutely has to happen.

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And the vast majority of our police officers have obviously on that day shown incredible bravery, and since then they have shown incredible kindness to us, and I am so thankful for those police officers.

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Who have waved at our children, who have said how grateful they are for the prayers that our families have prayed for them on so many nights.

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And so this doesn't reflect you in law enforcement, whether it's

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Metro, TBI, or some other member of law enforcement. This is not, this is not you. This is someone who is in your midst.

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So I just want to say to that person,

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I will commit to praying for you, that you will reveal yourself so that justice may be done.

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And in the Christian life, repentance, repentance is key. Repentance means that we turn away from our evil ways.

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And I'm praying that's exactly what happens here. This individual will turn from the evil that has been perpetrated on our families and realize the wrong that they have committed.

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And my hope is, my earnest hope, is they will find renewal in a person called

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Jesus Christ, who we at Covenant, at Woodmont Baptist, and at so many of other, of our churches around here that have been praying for our families, for our children, know to be the truth.

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That he is the way, the truth, and life. And for this individual, even though I believe justice must be done in this moment, that is the way he will truly be set free.

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Yes, Brent Leatherwood, in that particular clip from the news conference over a year, about a year and a half ago, was very upset.

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That part, I think it was a year and a half ago, I don't think I'm mistaken on that. He was very upset that Audrey Hale's manifesto, part of it was released by Stephen Crowder.

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And he's upset that an officer leaked this. Today Brent Leatherwood has said nothing about this situation.

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He's just, you know, I guess he'll say something, but he hasn't said anything yet.

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I would think he would. Apparently this was obtained legally, though. I don't know how that's possible.

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I don't know what they did, but it certainly takes some bravery to do this. And to confirm that this was anti -Christian bias, this was someone who hated

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God, this was someone who was angry at the world, this was someone whose mind was diseased by leftist propaganda, who sounds like they're not just mentally ill, but there's an evil there that seems demonic, that needs to be known.

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We would never have this conversation if it was, I think, a, quote, white supremacist shooting or something that fit the narrative, something that the left could use to further its goals.

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This wouldn't be the case. But it's taken two years, over two years, to get some of this stuff released.

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And there's still more. And if we're going to use equal weights and measures, it really should not take that long.

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All right, T. James Boone says, I think Leatherwood understands he has way less political capital than he did before and is in hot water after barely hanging on as ERLC president.

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That may be true. Maybe he won't weigh in. But I just think it's really sad. I think Southern Baptists out there just need to think about this.

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Why? If that's what it was, if we're just hiding that there's anti -Christian bigotry, that this person's mind was diseased by the left and that thinking, then why was this suppressed?

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Why was this such a secret? Why shouldn't we know about this? What is he trying to cover for or hide?

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That's my question. So that's what's going on today as we speak. Any comments on that?

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I don't really have much more to say about that particular issue, but I figured I would start out talking about that since that's what a lot of people are talking about right now.

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I want to talk a little bit about abortion and Trump. I've talked about this before, Trump's campaign, whether pro -lifers or anti -abortion people should vote for him.

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But let me just talk about this a little more here. So I found this the other day.

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I've actually shared this on the podcast and I didn't remember doing it, but I found this. It says pro -lifers have had absolutely zero status on the subject of abortion until I came along.

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Now, this is Trump. So there you go, it's Trump. And this is back, when was this from?

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Does it say? This was from, I think, back in April. He says, for 52 years, everyone talked, but got nothing.

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I got it done. There would be no talk of a six -week ban or anything else without me. Roe v.

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Wade allowed the killing of a baby at any time, including the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth month, and even after birth.

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They, therefore, are the radicals, not us. And now, because of our Supreme Court victory, the power has shifted.

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And for the first time, those fighting for the pro -life movement have been given tremendous power on this issue.

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Before our victory, they had nothing. And they will have nothing again if we don't win elections. Like Ronald Reagan, I believe in three exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of a mother.

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You have to follow your heart. But without the exceptions, it will be very hard to win elections. The six -week ban on abortion, among other things, like his fight against Social Security and Medicare, killed the

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DeSantis campaign. So this makes sense of what just happened.

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I saw a lot of people just saying that Trump was waffling, right? So you had

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LeRose come out and say, Trump is going to vote for this bill in Florida that will allow abortion up to the point of birth.

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Or he's going to, I should say, yeah, vote for it. And then the next day, he came out and said he was voting against it.

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And then people were saying, oh, it was a pressure campaign, pro -lifers or abolitionists, but mostly abolitionists,

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I think we're saying this. We put enough pressure on to make this happen. OK, it's hard to know what you don't know.

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I don't know what the private conversations were. But the thing is, I watched the videos again.

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Trump actually never said he was going to vote for that particular bill. What he did was the reporter came and asked him the question, and he just started talking about what he wanted to talk about.

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And saying that he got Roe v. Wade overturned, and that's what everyone wanted.

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But that he thinks that six weeks is too short, that women should be allowed to kill their babies more than six weeks, which is a pretty terrible thing.

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But he never said one way or another what he was going to do. He gave a critique of DeSantis, I guess, and the

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Republicans in Florida. But he never actually came out and said what he was going to do. And then the next day, he comes out in really the pro -life position.

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He votes with the pro -life lobby. We'll put it that way. So when you look at what

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Trump said, though, over the last few months, and really his entire presidency, even before he became the president,

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Trump's always been pretty much this way. He has a very strong sense of friends and enemies.

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The pro -life people were his friends, so he did a lot for them. And personally, this was never his thing.

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It's kind of amazing that he went to bat for them so much, to be quite honest. But based on what he said there in the post that I just read from back in April, his actions are pretty consistent.

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He wants to win elections. He doesn't see this as a winning issue. He thinks

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DeSantis is in the wrong, and that's what killed his campaign. He's too pro -life, basically. He doesn't want to be like DeSantis.

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And he's against the radicalism of the Democratic Party, though. So he's got this position that's not necessarily consistent.

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That's really what it is. He's trying to find a place where he can keep the pro -life people voting for him and also expand the base, because that's the only way he thinks he can win.

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So I'm not even convinced that there was any pressure campaign to get him to change his mind. It just seems like that's what he was doing the whole time.

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What happened over the weekend wasn't really anything new, in my opinion. It's consistent with what he said.

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And so for people to act like this is brand new, that all of a sudden Trump is switching his position, this is Bennett's position.

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And so the other thing, of course, is that you have some people on the abolition side of things, mostly abortion abolition, that are...

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Well, everyone's really concerned, I suppose. It's not just abolition types, but it's anti -abortionists of every stripe,

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I suppose, are concerned about IVF and some of the ethical issues. But there are... I found this out because I posted something the other day about Italy's IVF law.

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I said, Italy's IVF restrictions include bans on egg sperm donation, surrogacy, and pre -implantation genetic testing.

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Only heterosexual couples can access treatment and single embryo transfers are required. This is because they have a high

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Catholic population. It's also worth noting that in Italy, IVF typically ranges between 4 ,000 and 7 ,000 for a cycle.

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Now, and then later on, after people were already interacting, I said, hey, Donald Trump, if you're successful in getting your

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IVF proposal, can we at least have these ethical regulations like Italy's? Or have ethical regulations like Italy's?

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And can we find out why IVF is so much more expensive in the United States than other countries and seek to correct it? So I don't think

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Italy's laws are necessarily perfect. And I'm not an expert on them, but I read the basic regulations that they have.

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And it's much superior to what we have. And one of the comebacks I kept seeing over and over when

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I would bring this up in conversations, private conversations, is that, well, no

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IVF clinic would do this. It's too expensive. Because what they want to do is they want women to produce as many eggs as possible.

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So then they can fertilize them and have the greatest amount of chances of you getting pregnant and that kind of thing.

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And they have to discard the eggs that are defective and these kinds of things.

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From the clinic's perspective, they want high numbers. They want high success rates. But the thing is, in the

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United States, the bottom level for IVF, I mean, it's probably like $9 ,000 or $10 ,000.

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You can pay $20 ,000. I've heard of people paying like $30 ,000 for an IVF cycle. $4 ,000 to $7 ,000 in dollars?

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What in the world is going on that Italy can? I don't understand. I don't know.

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I haven't looked into it. Maybe someone else knows. But yeah, so apparently, they still have

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IVF clinics. They still have these strict regulations. And it's somehow cheaper. So that's something

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I think that someone should probably look into. But there's a cartoon that's been going around.

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I've seen this for months. But it's making the rounds right now because Trump, of course,

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I think is making a very foolish move, not just morally, but also politically. He wants to outdo the

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Democrats. Or I don't even think it's outdo them. He wants to head them off at the pass because they're claiming that he's anti -IVF, that his

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Republicans are going to be against IVF. So what does Trump do about it? Trump says,

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I got this plan to fund IVF. The government's going to fund it. We're going to pay for it. Now, this is terribly, this is not conservative, right?

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And what it does is it'll infiltrate your own people. It'll put an idea in their head that they didn't have before and make them think like, oh, yeah, we can do this as Republicans.

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And I think the chances of that going through are very small in a Trump administration. I really think it's late stage campaign rhetoric to try to get the

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Democrats off this talking point. But down the road, I mean, you've just said it's

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OK. You've just told your base that this can be part of the Republican plan. And, of course, that's not good.

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And, of course, under the current, without restrictions, the way that things work currently, of course, this is going to be an ethical nightmare.

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There's no doubt about that if you were able to get something like that passed, which I don't think you would be able to.

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In fact, I think someone like Kamala Harris is much more likely to go down that path and not just put

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IVF into a single payer category, but everything. You know, and so that people end up getting that and any other medical procedure they want, including an abortion without for free, essentially.

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You're paying for it. But so, you know, I don't buy that, like Trump's so much worse than the

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Democrats on life issues and stuff because of this plan. But it is foolish, in my opinion. It's not a good strategy.

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I think that as it's a short term thinking, it's short term thinking. That's all it is, in my opinion. So it's a big concern.

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But here's the here's the cartoon. I want to go through this because I think this will be helpful to think through what are the ethical issues here?

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I've talked about this before, but but since this is going around, let's talk about this. Welcome to build a baby where anyone who wants a baby can build one something broken, missing an ingredient or two in our state of the art facility using state of the art technology.

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So this is the first ethical dilemma presented, and it is a real one.

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And oftentimes in these clinics, you they have a room somewhere to go and they will provide

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I know this is hard for some of you to believe, but they will provide pornographic materials and those kinds of things.

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And of course, that is wrong. That's evil. But I suppose I would say that that's not necessary.

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And I being as less descriptive as I possibly can be, there's no reason that a married couple, a

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Christian married couple, let's say that the wife could not participate in this process and there would be nothing evil going on.

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We'll put it that way and I'll leave it there. But but that's the first ethical problem. Now, really, the conclusion

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I'll tell you, the conclusion I'm coming to here, there are these ethical dilemmas, but at the end of the day, the framing that we have right now is that IVF is the problem.

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Right. And this is a very hard thing because there's multiple ethical dilemmas in the way that IVF is typically done in the

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United States. And it's the things attached to it. Right. It's the things associated with it. But those things probably need to be identified rather than just framing it like anti IVF, which is what the left wants us to do so badly.

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It's probably better to frame it in terms of, in this case, anti pornography.

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Right. So that's not IVF. That's pornography. Right. The two often go together in many circumstances, but they don't have to.

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That's actually separate from IVF. So so so this is ethical dilemma one. Let's keep playing the cartoon.

24:06

Burn producer. No problem. Build your baby with our extensive donor sperm bank, where all our donors meet the highest human standards.

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Now on to the eggs. OK, so second ethical dilemma right here. Is having someone who is not one's husband.

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So a woman who isn't married and wants to just a lesbian couple, for example, they can just have someone who's not even part of the relationship, donate sperm, and then they can get pregnant.

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And of course, this, again, is a problem, an ethical problem.

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But the problem is this is having someone who is not taking responsibility, who is not in a covenant with you donating their sperm.

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Now, they're not having a physical relationship directly, but they're you know, it's really the same endpoint there.

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There's a sexual that you're you're making them part of a sexual process. And and so this creates a problem.

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This creates an ethical problem to get around or to to navigate. And it doesn't.

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Again, though, this isn't IVF, though. Specifically, this is the way the IVF can be done with and they'll probably get to it later, but surrogates and in this case, sperm donors that aren't actually they don't take any responsibility for the offspring.

25:29

As with the sperm, if you're missing an egg carrier, you'll have full access to our egg donation bank, all gathered from top specimens.

25:38

But if you do have an egg carrier, we'll pump that sucker full of hormones so you can get as many eggs as possible in the shortest amount of time.

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And then the true magic begins building a baby in a Petri dish.

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Now, again, it doesn't have to actually be this way. It's not even IVF. It's the ethical problem here or it's a health problem,

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I suppose, too, is pumping someone with all these hormones and overproducing eggs so that you have a surplus of eggs that cannot be used.

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So where are they going to go if they're not used is the question. They can be freezed and they can if they're fertilized, then you have little humans.

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Now you have embryos. Then they can be discarded and that kind of thing if you're not going to use them. And so this creates a problem again, though, that doesn't you don't have to overstimulate someone for for IVF, right?

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Again, something that's associated with it, but it's not directly intrinsic to it.

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Truly a miracle. All embryos will be graded and we'll discard any defective or genetically imperfect babies before you even know it.

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Now, again, another ethical dilemma. It's similar, I suppose, to I was just already describing it, but discarding unused or unwanted embryos that are that have, let's say, down syndrome or something like that.

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Well, that, again, isn't IVF. It's not the procedure. That's the problem here. It's not the science.

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It's not IVF itself. It is the discarding. And so this is often associated with IVF and they often go together.

27:23

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27:47

At long last, the day has come. Embryo transfer day. Cross your fingers that an embryo will stick and you'll get that one perfect baby or two or three or eight.

28:01

Not to worry. Selective reduction will take care of that. Now, this is an interesting one for me when

28:08

I was looking at this, because this would be part of not necessarily a I mean, you could introduce one.

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Right. I just said in Italy, they have regulations on how many of these embryos can actually be introduced into the womb.

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So but if you if you put eight in there, I actually I'm scratching my head a little bit on this after the

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Octomom thing. That was like a decade ago. I don't know what clinic would put eight into a mother's womb.

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This one, this just seems far fetched. I'm not sure what this is about or why they put this there. But I would say this, because I think the ethical thing that they're getting at is that there's a reduction that happens and under natural conditions.

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Right. It's estimated I just look this up, that some estimate at least that 70 percent of embryos, fertilized eggs, embryos are that there's a reduction that happens just naturally.

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You never hear that. The difference is, I think, with IVF, you're more likely to know about it, especially before these fertilized eggs, these embryos make their way to the womb.

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So, you know, how many were implanted even after they're transferred, the embryos are transferred to the womb.

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So this is again, it's the same thing as everything else, though. I just said it's not

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IVF directly. It's introducing too many fertilized eggs or embryos.

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It's also, I would say, parallel to what happens naturally out there.

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There's you just don't know about it. I don't see this as an ethical issue with IVF directly.

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These are all indirect ethical issues. OK, let's keep going. Wondering what happens to your

29:59

Build -A -Babies that we don't transfer? For a small fee, we'll store them in our top of the line cryogenic freezers.

30:07

Ready for you to try again or discard or donate or give to science a beautiful gift.

30:16

OK, so it's horrific. There's no doubt about it. That's horrific.

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Again, though, donating them to science, that doesn't have to be done, obviously. What was the other thing?

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Let me go back here. OK, freezing. So freezing is another dilemma.

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And so this is one again, this doesn't actually have to be this is an

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IVF directly. Again, this is indirect. This is freezing. But if you if you're not doing a fresh transfer with your with your embryos and you have let's say you have more than you can safely transfer or something like that, you have a situation that develops for whatever reason.

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Then they an IVF clinic, they will they have freezers set up.

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I don't know if the clinics have these or if they if they outsource them or where, but they they have these cold freezers that they will put your embryos and and they can store them either fertilized if it fertilized eggs.

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So that would be the embryo or they could have some unfertilized egg that's not fertilized. So they can store both.

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The chances of them risking them in a dethaw, all right, which they're not getting into this, but I'm assuming that's where it's going.

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That's why I'm giving you this information. The chances of that happening are like it's around one percent.

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It's very, very low. So I found when

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I was researching this that there's a lot of pro -life groups that have old data when it comes to this, and they'll say things like 85 percent or 80 percent.

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It's not like that much anymore. So I don't know why that is. I guess the science has improved or something.

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But you can there's two ways, I guess, to think about this. One is no risk is worth it.

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So this this is wrong. You should never freeze embryos. If that's the case, then you have to measure that against the womb.

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If you've retrieved eggs from a woman's womb, you do a fresh transfer. The womb can also be, since there's been a surgery, somewhat of a less welcoming environment.

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So there's also a risk there that you're going to have some selective reduction, a greater chance of that.

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So you balance. So that's at least possible. But another way to look at it, this is the second way to look at it.

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So in that first line of thinking where you're looking at the odds, you can justify the freezing as, well, it's a greater chance a month down the line or something because the womb isn't as welcoming right now.

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Or you can say, actually, we're just going to let, since it's in the body, we're going to do a fresh transfer, let nature take its course.

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And whatever that low chance is of, because they're not compared to natural reduction, my understanding is there's really not much of a difference.

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But you can, if your conscience bothers you on that, then you can take that road.

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That way, if anything does happen, you are not, it would be the same as if it happened under normal conditions, a sexual encounter and process.

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So this, again, the freezing thing is not intrinsic to IVF, but it is often associated with it.

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And it's probably, I'm sure in Italy, they have freezers, just in case.

34:04

Because if, let's say, a woman has more eggs than they expected, and they may have to.

34:11

I don't know. But yeah, so I don't know what the regulations are on the stimulation there in Italy.

34:17

But you can put all the regulations you want on it, and sometimes things happen that you didn't expect.

34:23

But whatever happens, Build -A -Baby is happy to help you again and again and again, no matter the cost.

34:31

Contact us and build your baby today. I really think that as Christians, as pro -life or anti -abortion people, when we talk about these things,

34:50

I think we need to be super specific and clear. And in the political scenario that we're in right now, we have a problem,

34:58

I think, as believers. We really do. When we start, when we just have a blanket sort of anti -IVF stance, and we don't identify the specific ethical issues, then for the couple who is married, who is navigating these things in the most ethical way they possibly can, they're not going to understand what you're saying.

35:24

And there's many Catholic couples and Christian couples who have used this process, and they are in the pro -life movement.

35:32

Some of them are in more abolitionist circles. I know this because I've had some of them tell me.

35:38

So, and none of them want people to know, from what

35:44

I can tell with the people who I'm friends with who have told me this, none of them want others to know, partially because of the way that they're treated as a result of this.

35:54

And so my recommendation is, on a political level, we can make the case what

36:01

Trump did was wrong, or the policy that he wants to pursue is wrong, that under current circumstances, it would be better if someone could flip a switch and make all

36:09

IVF go away because of the gross ethical violations that are happening all over the place.

36:16

I mean, there are freezers full of these fertilized embryos going nowhere, these zygotes, little humans, little humans, and that's a wrong thing.

36:29

But it's not specifically the IVF procedure. It's all the things associated with it, attached to it, that, according to that cartoon, at least, are the problem.

36:39

So, all right, well, let's move on here. We, oh man, there's so much, we're already almost an hour in, and I have so much more to share with you, and I'm not even sure, maybe

36:54

I'll save some of the stuff for tomorrow's podcast that I want to talk about, because I want to talk about Russell Moore.

37:00

I want to talk about Whitehorse Inn. Let's talk a little bit about some of the pushback

37:06

I've gotten for various things. So, a bunch of people, I shouldn't say a bunch,

37:12

I can count them on one hand. So, like four people reached out to me and said, hey,

37:18

Owen Strand, he's saying, apparently he mentioned me, not just me though, he mentioned Joel Webb, and he mentioned a bunch of guys in a podcast.

37:25

He's going after you, and I haven't heard what he said, but something along the lines of I'm a big, bad,

37:31

I guess, pro -slavery guy or something like that. So, I saw though, so this is the, so I saw that he had,

37:43

I guess, posted this. It came across my feed that he had posted this podcast, and I guess

37:50

I was just a passing thought. There was a bunch of other guys, I think Stephen Wolfe and others he was going after, but it led me to consider something that I have been considering since the days of my seminary time at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I was routinely told

38:05

I was white and this was bad. Being white, not a good thing. Being white, you got to diversify.

38:13

You got to make sure your elder boards are diverse. You got to make sure that you're reading authors who are not white.

38:18

You got to make sure that you're attending churches that are not white. Why isn't it more diverse in here, right?

38:24

But the people who always said this to me, almost without fail, I can't think of an exception, lived in the whitest areas.

38:32

And if they were black and they, because usually it was black folks. I'm sure there were other ethnicities, but usually it was black folks or white folks.

38:42

If they were black and they could afford it, they weren't in the hood. I'm just telling you, they were, and they were attending your majority white churches in town.

38:51

And I always thought this was a curious thing. All this diversity talk. Well, I decided to make a little video.

38:58

Didn't take me that long. So here it is. All right.

39:54

So for those who have not seen this or are listening, because I know that some people get this on the playback on the podcast, that's audio.

40:04

Uh, I, I first give quotes from these guys. So David Platt says, it's a problem when

40:09

Christians in the United States are the most resistant to refugees in our communities. God's brought people from those places to our doorstep where we live,

40:18

David Platt. And this is actually recent. This was going viral online.

40:23

And then I showed where he lived. He lives in Vienna, Virginia. And one of, and, and one of the whitest areas in Vienna, Virginia, Virginia is over 70 % white.

40:32

Anyway, Danny Akin theology is best in community and not only in community of white culture, but in community of diverse cultures and diverse ethnicities.

40:39

And of course, Danny Akin right there in a very deep white area of, uh,

40:45

Wake Forest, which is also almost 70 % white and Southeastern, very white. The student body there.

40:52

We have then JD Greer. We must all intentionally form relationships with people outside our comfort zone on all sides to not be intentionally intentional means to be intentionally non -diverse.

41:04

And JD Greer now to his credit, it's, it is majority white, but it's not quite 50 % in Durham because there, there is a, there's an area in Durham, but JD Greer doesn't live in that area.

41:14

JD Greer lives in, according to white pages, a very white area. So, uh, and then we have

41:19

Owen Strand. If this is, I guess this is what he had said when he was advertising the podcast, apparently where he critiqued me and others, if your neighborhood gets less white, should that freak you out?

41:28

Jesus is our identity, not keeping nations or neighborhoods white. If your suburb changes demographically view that not as a threat, but as a gospel opportunity.

41:37

All right, well, where does Owen Strand live? Uh, yeah, in 70 % white Conway, Arkansas, and, and not just, you know, you can see there's the black section and there's where Owen Strand lives, uh, pretty far away from it in a pretty white area.

41:51

So someone told me after I made this, like, oh, he's back in Louisville. So I asked, is he in the ghetto? I don't, you know, where is he?

41:56

And I don't know, but, uh, but I guess up until recently, then he was here. So, um, you know,

42:02

I don't do that. Some might think that's just silly and you're, you know, the music and everything, but no, I'm, I'm, I'm serious.

42:07

Like, this is ridiculous to me that we keep getting lectured about this, that this keeps being a, uh, talking point among people though, who, when it comes down to their choices, not their rhetoric, but their choices, they choose to live in very white areas.

42:27

Concentrated with a lot of white people, that's where they want to be. That's where they choose to live. They don't have to live there. In fact, economically does it's probably as cheaper in some of these places, like in Conway, Arkansas, I would wager right now, if you went online and look at the suburbs of Conway, Arkansas, and then looked at, uh, downtown or areas where there's more ethnic minorities and so forth, it, you probably can get a better deal on a house or an apartment, a dwelling living in, uh, in those areas.

42:57

And, uh, but yet economically speaking, they choose to pay more money, uh, essentially, or, or someone is choosing if they're not,

43:06

I don't know who is, but to live in a place that is, has, has one of its features, more white people.

43:13

What explains that guys? I'm not going to answer it, but I will ask it. I probably,

43:19

I could gander at an answer, but I'm not going to do that. So Landon Miller says amazing work and unsurprising result.

43:26

Yeah. I mean, it's just, I've lived with this for years though. I've just, it's bothered me. It's annoyed me so much because you get all these diversity, uh, guilt trips that I would go through in seminary.

43:37

And, and I knew where the guys lived. I knew what churches they attended. Cause I visited all the churches in wake forest, a lot of them that were

43:43

Southern Baptist. And I would see them there. And I'm like, looking around a sea of white faces. And I was like, wasn't that professor just telling us how terrible it is that we have too many, like, like it's not like you didn't like, in fact, some of these guys, most of these guys, now that I'm thinking about it, they're driving farther to get to churches in many cases that are more white.

44:08

Not saying that's their driving motivation. It's just, it happens to be the fact is that's one of the features and they're bypassing.

44:15

I just should, let's see if I could pull it back up here. It is, this is where I went to seminary. No, not, not in Conway in, uh, there it is.

44:24

No, no, that's sorry. That's Durham. Okay. There's wake forest. You see that green area there. That's a black area.

44:31

And, um, many people from the school and people were very big on diversity would go right past that green area to go to a white, uh, church in a more white area.

44:42

And, you know, and there were guys who go to like JD Greer's church, right. Or go to Durham and stuff. We'll go, let's go back here to Durham.

44:50

Uh, there it is. Look at this, all this green surrounding that area. That's, these are a majority black areas.

44:58

So I'm just saying they made a choice, not just where they live, but where they go to church. And, uh, that was the choice they made.

45:05

So why are we in trouble? When I say we, I'm saying it figuratively. I actually do go to a very diverse church, unlike some of these guys.

45:14

And, um, I, why do they though lecture people like us about diversity?

45:22

That's, it's the curious thing. It's the most curious thing. And, uh, I should probably stop ranting about it. But, uh,

45:28

Jimmy Starfish says it's challenging to find any majority white part of Durham. I think Greer is in the whitest part. Well, uh,

45:34

Durham's bigger than like if you're in downtown, you're probably thinking like downtown Durham and the university. There's like two sides to it.

45:41

Cause I used to go to FBC Durham. There's, uh, there's a university side and then there's like the ghetto side. And, uh, so, or more ghetto,

45:50

I don't know what you can, are you allowed to still say that? I think so. Right. All right. Um, all right.

45:57

What else did I want to talk about as far as pushback goes? Uh, oh, there was, okay.

46:04

So someone did send me, I'm not even going to show you the podcast. It doesn't matter. There was a podcast. Someone sent it to me this morning where these two guys were going after me saying

46:13

I was, um, a Confederate, what did they say? I was a Confederate apologist, something like that. I don't know.

46:18

Enthusiast. I don't remember what word they used, but then they said, and he's a kinest. And so I figured

46:25

I would just, I don't even have to play the clip. I'll just say, look, there's, there's a lot of people out there that are having trouble with categories and understanding.

46:35

They certainly don't understand my position, but when I, I am not a kinest.

46:41

I don't, I've never taken that term. I've never even taken the term, uh, Neo -Confederate or Confederate apologist or any of these things they ascribe.

46:49

I think that's, I've said before, I think that's all just an F scale thing that really what that is, is like trying to pigeonhole someone into modern terms that are now equivalent to basically

47:00

Nazi. But, uh, you know, if you like Robert E. Lee too much, then you're, uh, you're an apologist for him and you're, oh, you're an apologist now for the whole

47:09

Confederacy. And that makes you Confederate apologist, which means you're a bad person, right? That's really all it is.

47:14

It's not, I think it's a way to dismiss. It's not very serious in my opinion. Uh, but to mix in all these other categories, like I think some of the guys who make these critiques, they don't in their minds,

47:26

Confederate, Nazi, uh, kinest, uh, you know, maybe even

47:34

MAGA, like some of their, they're all synonymous, right? Misogynist. They might not even like, they might not be able to parse these things out.

47:41

So when it comes to, um, I'm not going to make a big statement about it, but when it comes to the kinest thing,

47:47

I'll just put it this way in my own family, there are multiple. Uh, relationships that are across ethnic lines that exist in my own family.

47:59

Um, I go to a church that's very diverse and there are interracial couples in my church that I am friends with.

48:05

So I am not a, uh, a person who thinks, you know, and I'm not,

48:10

I don't want to describe any definition to kinism because I know that there's, there's sort of a broad range there and people have different ideas of what that is.

48:16

But I will say that I don't think that there's anything intrinsically sinful in and of itself in those relationships.

48:24

And I'll leave it at that for now. There's more things I could probably say to, uh, uh, give my opinions on marriage and wisdom and approaching marriage and things to consider and cultural.

48:37

I think there's a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from listening to older couples who have counseled a lot of people and can foresee potential problems in marriages.

48:45

Some of those problems can come from different cultures, uh, mixing and just different, different default settings people have.

48:52

And now they have to navigate life together. It can be a strain sometimes, but I am not someone who thinks, oh, it's sinful.

48:59

It is in and of itself a sin. I don't find that in scripture. I do find in the old

49:04

Testament, uh, passages on interracial relationships that are, um, specific to Israel and specific to,

49:11

I think, pagan nations, but that's what I see. So that's, that's where I'm at on that issue.

49:19

And, uh, to just, it's just so sloppy. And I had the thought to, I should probably find it.

49:24

There was a, a quote. In fact, if I have a minute, do I have a minute? I think I have a minute. Let me pull it up.

49:31

William Lloyd Garrison is a big abolitionist, uh, probably one of the most renowned abolitionists from the 19th century.

49:37

So very, you know, antislavery and all that kind of stuff. There was a quote that I found the other day. If I can pull it up, uh, where he talks about, let's see here.

49:52

I'm not sure if I'll be able to pull it up. Um, I'm going to try.

50:01

I'm going to try. Where he talks about himself, interracial marriage.

50:07

And you think this guy's like, so against slavery, he hates the Confederacy too. And all of that, he hates the South. And when it comes down to it though,

50:17

I can't seem to pull it up for some reason when it comes down to it though, he makes no bones about the fact that he is very against, uh, interracial marriages.

50:27

And I just find that like one of the big critiques, not just from him, but during that period of time was that slave masters in the

50:38

South basically had harems and that they were just having their way sexually with, uh, with the slaves who lived there.

50:45

And one of the great sins about this was it was miscegenation that there was the, the offspring, these offsprings that were half white, half black.

50:53

That was a horrible thing. That's one of the main arguments. One of the big arguments I should say, many abolitionists used.

50:59

And so I don't think these, these guys that were like saying, Oh, he's a Confederate. So he's a kinist. They wouldn't, they wouldn't even recognize that.

51:05

Like that. They, I don't think they know how to comport that with what they probably believe. So I figured

51:10

I would just, uh, uh, point that out. No drama. Mama says, this is the best

51:16

John. He seems to have had a lot of caffeine. I've had no caffeine. In fact, I probably need more sleep.

51:22

Maybe that's what it is. So, uh, one other thing. Oh, two other things, two other things.

51:27

Okay. I'll just do this one really briefly too. If I can pull this up, this is a podcast.

51:34

I listened to like 20 minutes of it. I don't time to listen to the whole thing. Uh, I thought

51:42

I downloaded it and now I'm not seeing it. That is a big bummer. Okay.

51:53

I guess I'm not going to respond to that either. You're not going to see what

51:58

I'm responding to. You're just going to hear my response. And, uh, I'm going to be, if this is the best version of John, just winging it like this, then

52:05

I guess you'll like it. So there was another podcast. It was in the space of like 48 hours.

52:11

I had like three podcasts go after me or something like that. So, um, I listened to like the first 20 minutes.

52:18

I think the podcast is like an hour or something. Um, but, uh, but I had talked to the guy who was hosting the podcast.

52:24

I talked to him on the phone beforehand and he didn't invite me to come on, which is fine. I, I wouldn't have mind, uh, minded doing that, but, um, but yeah, in the first like 25 minutes or so I was listening.

52:35

And, um, so he had a guy on to try to critique me, uh, an appearance

52:41

I made on Joel Webb and show where we talk about abolitionism, 19th century abolitionism. And one of the things the guy said was that for every one story of a, um,

52:55

I guess a, a slave who is living in, in those times who has a good master, you know, relatively, we'll say biblical conditions, like the masters following what the

53:08

Bible says about this and, uh, doesn't have many complaints, that kind of thing. For every one of those stories, there are 1000 stories of abuse.

53:17

And so I figured, um, I would just say. That I think, and I told the guy who hosted the podcast, this,

53:28

I think what you have to do when you're looking at anything historical and there's two sides or more than one side, you need to look at all the primary sources you can, and then come up with, or adopt a paradigm that makes sense of all of them.

53:40

You know, you don't want things outside the paradigm, which I think that the modern narrative, which some people call neo abolitionist narrative, or just,

53:48

I like Brian McClanahan's, uh, the righteous cause myth, you know, cause they say the lost cause myth, the righteous cause myth.

53:54

But I don't, I think there are things outside of the paradigm that just don't fit it. This is one of the reasons, um,

54:01

I was willing to even go on Joel's show and for patrons, you all know that I've done already two, uh, long videos on slavery, uh, on what the

54:12

Bible says, Hebrew slavery, Greco Roman slavery, American slavery. And I've gone into some detail about these things.

54:20

So for many of you, this isn't new, but when you're, when you're looking at something like that, I think you have to, um, you have to look at what evidence we have, what we have our accounts from slaves during that time.

54:35

And what they said about their conditions. We also have abolitionist literature at, of the time, some of which, you know, like popular novels, like uncle

54:43

Tom's cabin really had no, I mean, Harry Peter still hadn't, hadn't even been down South.

54:49

She hadn't witnessed slavery. So she's writing about something she hasn't seen. And, uh, the sensitivity and the retort from many

54:57

Southerners was this does not describe you're talking about the abuse of it. You're not talking about it, but you have that right.

55:03

And then you have what Southerners themselves said about the, uh, the practice and the conditions and those kinds of things.

55:11

And then you have, and this is where in historiography, we would say, uh, these sources are more neutral or less biased.

55:19

We have foreign observers. We have, um, we have data from the census

55:24

Bureau and we have, uh, slave narratives, whether it's the works project administration, slave narratives of which we have, uh, a lot, thousands,

55:32

I suppose. And we have, uh, then many that were at the time, uh, people who, uh, eventually gain their freedom, wrote about it, that kind of thing.

55:43

Booker T Washington's book up from slavery would be one of those, right? So you have to look at all of these things and then come up with a paradigm that makes sense of it.

55:51

So, um, I would just say this for one, for every one story of a charitable master, something like that, there's 1000 stories of abuse.

55:59

I just don't think that fits what we actually have. Um, and the, the slave narratives themselves,

56:04

I know Fogle and Ingram and basically say in their book, time on the cross at like 60 to 80 % of these things really only have positive things to say about their master.

56:13

There's, there's a good 20 % that have negative things to say. Today, these are trying, many people are trying to discredit these, which

56:20

I came across when I was in history class, when I was in my historiography class, cause they did a whole project on this.

56:27

And I think a lot of it's just grasping at straws. What they can't seem to explain is why that 20 % exists because the, what they'll often say is, well, they were just saying that because when the government took these slave narratives down in the 1940s of these elderly slaves, um, they were, uh, remembering their life in fond colors, or they were saying what they thought the government wanted them to say.

56:53

So you can't trust those. So you just throw out thousands of these accounts. You throw your, I guess, black voices don't matter at that point because it's all, it's all manipulated, but explain the 20%, explain why these were allowed to be published.

57:06

If that the government really wanted these rosy, uh, moonlight and Magnolia colored, uh, expressions, why in the world did they allow some of these stories of horrific abuse to see the light of day?

57:17

But they did. So I don't buy it. Um, when you look at census, uh, information, they, you had a, well, this is one of the things that made it hard for emancipationists to figure out how to end the practice and how, like, what do you do when we have a small number?

57:35

You can come up with solutions, but when you have millions of, uh, slaves and their, their birth rate is very high in the

57:43

South, way higher than it is among free blacks in the North. There's a prosperity. There's a success.

57:48

There's something that's happening there. Uh, they're living in conditions where they are able to reproduce. That's not the only metric you look at, but that is a metric we have available to us.

57:57

It's data. It's raw data. And then of course, um, foreign observers and, uh, and, and I've, uh,

58:05

I know I presented this to the patrons though. Um, the, many of the foreign observers that we know of who traveled

58:10

South, who traveled North, who compared labor conditions in both places, compared them to England, that kind of thing.

58:18

Uh, the overall analysis was that, uh, the, the, in general, the conditions were pretty charitable.

58:27

So what do you do with that? You have to do something. It has to fit into your paradigm somewhere. You can still say slavery is horrible.

58:33

It's bad. It's evil. It's awful. What you can't really say though, I think if you're going to be honest with the data is,

58:38

Hey, for every one of those stories, we have 1000 stories of abuse that, that just doesn't fit the data from what

58:45

I understand. So, um, that was, that was said, I guess, to retort something I said to Joel Webb and about, cause

58:50

I was trying to say that in the Bible belt, one of the things that's brought up against Christianity so often is like, look how awful it was for minorities and look how awful it was for slaves.

59:01

This was a horrible thing. There were horrible things that happened on it. No question about that. But the question,

59:07

I think that the bigger question and the more important question is what was the standard operating procedure?

59:13

What was, uh, did masters did Christian masters, did they take the biblical teaching on this seriously?

59:21

If they didn't take it seriously, then yeah. Okay. They're not Christians or a bunch of hypocrites if that's really what's going on across the board.

59:27

But if they took it seriously, then, um, you can't say that they're in sin for following the Bible's teaching.

59:33

That's true. I think that was the context of what I was saying to Joel. Another thing, uh, that was said on this particular podcast was, oh, there was a, a big stink,

59:41

I guess, or not a big, it wasn't a big stink, but that I shouldn't call it a labor relation, which, um, there's many, there's many historians and not, not just historians, people even in the modern era, uh, who are on the left who talk about slavery, who talk about it in the terms of being a labor relation.

01:00:00

Um, is that detached? Is that, well, what else is it? I mean, it's not, I don't know what a labor arrangement you could say that is.

01:00:07

I don't know if it's the word of relation that makes it sound good or something. It's not intended to make it sound good or bad.

01:00:13

You could have an abusive relationship. That's what we call it. When there's a husband and wife relationship, then it's abusive. We'll call it an abusive relationship or something.

01:00:20

But it's a, but, but relationship just means a connection really between these two parties or more than two parties.

01:00:26

So yeah, it's, it's a, for labor, that's the reason the relation or the arrangement connection exists.

01:00:33

Um, I just think that's a weird thing to say because this is not an uncommon thing that said, um, at least up until recently.

01:00:41

And then of course, um, yeah, this was odd too, that John Brown didn't want, uh, insurrection and, um, the thing is

01:00:49

I'm not an expert on John Brown, but John Brown, like you're just reading the trial.

01:00:54

If you just read some of the primary sources, uh, surrounding John Brown, he, uh, he, he and his own defense claim that he wasn't trying to do an insurrection, but when he just look at his actions though, and look at what his associates said about Frederick Douglas even said, it's

01:01:12

Frederick Douglas referred to it as an insurrection. One of his associates that came out as a witness at the trial said, referred to it as an insurrection newspapers,

01:01:21

North and South referred to it as an insurrection. Maybe that doesn't mean as much, but, uh, that this was the commonly understood thing.

01:01:27

Um, because yeah, like, uh, he, he had almost a thousand of these pickaxes that he was going to arm slaves with.

01:01:36

He decided to go to, um, an armory. Basically he wanted to go to a place where there was weapons.

01:01:42

And, and on the way in with the, the small group of people that he had with him, he kidnapped a number of people, uh, to hold them as, as hostages essentially.

01:01:56

So you just put that all together with the fact that he's also right. He wrote a, uh, his own constitution and he wants, uh, to, he's saying,

01:02:06

I just want to free people from slavery, but the way he's going about doing it, he's there's it's violence.

01:02:12

It's, um, I mean, that's why was he hung because of the deaths of, uh, five different people, right?

01:02:17

Three of them, I think his associates, two of them, I think, um, not his associates, but it was his actions that led to this.

01:02:25

Uh, it was an attempt at, he, he, he took over. It wasn't just like taking over a federal, federal building.

01:02:31

Like we think of today, it wasn't like January 6th. They'll put it that way. It wasn't, uh, they entered a building, especially welcomed in, right.

01:02:37

They, they entered a building cause they wanted to protest an election. No, he, he went into a building where there, uh, were munitions and these kinds of things.

01:02:45

And he essentially took over a town for, uh, a few, well,

01:02:50

I guess less than 48 hours. It wasn't that long before Robert E Lee got there and they, uh, they stopped it, but it was, he didn't surrender.

01:02:58

He was, uh, he, he was clear about wanting to arm people to do what to do what.

01:03:05

Right. So I just thought that was interesting. Um, I, I've noticed,

01:03:12

I'll just say this to wrap this up. I've noticed that there's a John Brown series on television.

01:03:18

I don't know if it's still, uh, it was recent. I don't know if they're still going, if it's still airing, but, uh,

01:03:24

I, and they make him out to be, it's a very sympathetic treatment. We'll put it that way.

01:03:30

Okay. If you look at treatments, even in old Hollywood, John Brown was not treated sympathetically at all.

01:03:35

I mean, this was a guy, uh, he was not viewed favorably by hardly anyone, but there has been a rekindling.

01:03:43

There has been, I've noticed even, uh, oh, I don't want to, I think I know who it is. Am I, I want, I'm going to just take the leap here.

01:03:50

I think it was Micah Edmondson. I saw maybe a year ago or two, he had tweeted something on Facebook about John Brown and John Brown being this great guy.

01:04:00

And there is this attempt, uh, now to, I guess, make him more of like an evangelical Christian who was just concerned about slavery.

01:04:07

And, uh, and that's really it. And, and we should emulate him, follow his example,

01:04:13

I guess, or at least, uh, at the very least we shouldn't vilify him. We shouldn't call him a terrorist.

01:04:19

We shouldn't say he started an insurrection. We shouldn't do any of those things. It's very peculiar behavior to me. And I think all of this comes down to this.

01:04:27

I think one question really, uh, for Christians, at least, I think it comes down to this.

01:04:33

And this is a question that I had asked the host of this particular podcast. They said, look, if Robert E.

01:04:39

Lee had treated his slaves according to what the Bible teaches about this matter, because it's the biblical teaching of slavery on, on that topic.

01:04:49

No, knowing that I would have been a gradual emancipationist, I would have seen the opportunities for abuse.

01:04:54

I would have seen the iniquity, uh, and iniquitous things that are associated with it. Just like I do with IVF, right?

01:05:00

I would have wanted this to phase out. That said, if someone has inherited their slaves, they've inherited this institution.

01:05:10

What are they to do about it? If they, they're not in a position to be able to free these slaves, Robert E. Lee had debts.

01:05:16

He couldn't, uh, in many cases, they couldn't really, they didn't have the skills or the opportunity in that kind of a society to take care of themselves.

01:05:25

And so what do you do? I say, you obey what God lays down in his word about this.

01:05:32

His instructions in Ephesians are very clear. Slaves are, yes, to submit to their masters. Masters are to treat their slaves in a way that conforms to the love that God has for us.

01:05:44

They're supposed to, they're not supposed to be overlording to their slaves. They're not supposed to, uh, be abusive to their slaves.

01:05:52

They're supposed to treat them in a way that's consistent with how a Christian acts. That's what the

01:05:58

Bible's teaching is on this in the new Testament. And that was in a slave system where you had, uh, sex abuse was just accepted.

01:06:06

All right. Not just common accepted. It wasn't any shame associated with it. You had gladiatorial arenas where slaves would fight to the death for people's entertainment.

01:06:15

You didn't have any of that in Alabama. You know, I, I'm not saying I, all I'm saying is that this was a bad system.

01:06:21

This was a pagan slave system, much worse than the Hebrew system. And what was Paul's instructions for Christians who are living in this?

01:06:28

You need to operate by Christian, uh, Christian, uh, standards.

01:06:35

And, and so that's really, that's my, my defense really of Christians who are living in that situation.

01:06:41

And I would include George Washington and many of the founding fathers in this. If you answer the question, you know,

01:06:46

Robert E. Lee was in intrinsically in sin, right? Just because he had slaves and inherited them from his wife's father.

01:06:55

Then what you end up doing, I'm just going to give you the preview because I think this, this is the, it's the woke stuff, really all of the founding fathers who owned slaves and those who didn't, who were complicit in this, those who were on board with the declaration of independence, even because it's complaint.

01:07:11

And the second to last complaint is that Lord Dunmore, uh, emancipation proclamation was fomenting slave insurrections.

01:07:19

And then you see the compromises in the constitution and so forth. They, they weren't the activists, even the ones who did not have slaves.

01:07:29

We're not activists against this, not, not like we're supposed to be today.

01:07:34

Right? So that would mean that every person, and I'm not saying this is not an argument for why it's wrong or why

01:07:43

I'm just saying this was, this is the ramification of believing that the founding fathers were intrinsically in deep sin.

01:07:51

They were either blind to that sin. So they had a great moral, great moral failures that I would say it would disqualify them.

01:08:00

Really? I guess it would really, it wasn't just conditions they were living in. Like they themselves were complicit and, um, in, in great evil and living in perpetual sin.

01:08:11

So you have that, right? Um, and if that's the case, then that, that would be the narrative consistent with the 1619 project.

01:08:22

That would be the narrative consistent with BLM 2020. I think when people start down that road, that's where they end up eventually.

01:08:30

And I'm talking about Christian specifically, rather than seeing it, I think in color, which is, this was an economic institution that was universal throughout the world.

01:08:41

This was something that was, uh, starting to fade mostly in Western countries. Remember it still exists today in many

01:08:48

Eastern places, but it was fading in Western countries. And this was something that the founding fathers had to contend with.

01:08:57

It was something that they had to, um, in the constitution, they say by 1808, no more slave trade.

01:09:03

They're trying to limit there's, but it wasn't something that they felt a moral obligation to immediately end because they could see, uh, what that would do.

01:09:12

They could see the ramifications of that. And they were also, I'm not saying across the board, every single one, but many of them were guided by the

01:09:19

Bible on this topic. And they were, they were living in a society where there was a social pressure to with exceptions as there are in any society, but there was a social pressure to treat these people like people.

01:09:35

And that's why I can respect the founding fathers, even the ones who own slaves or I should say own slave own slave slaves labor.

01:09:45

And, um, I can look at them and see to the extent that they follow the Bible's teaching on this topic.

01:09:50

I can still have a respect. I can have a respect for Jonathan Edwards. I can have a respect for, um, for, for, you know, other figures like Robert E.

01:09:59

Lee. And, uh, you know, I was, I just posted on Twitter today or X, uh, Jefferson Davis is adopted black son, you know, and Jefferson Davis is someone else who

01:10:09

I think a lot of people don't, they don't read him, but in Congress, he lobbied for slaves to have patents so that they could in, if they invented something, they could reap the reward from that intention.

01:10:22

Even while in servitude, uh, he stayed with ex slaves after the war, he adopted a black son.

01:10:29

These are things that you just never hear about, but what makes sense of this? Where do you see this in other societies and other slave societies?

01:10:37

It's not a very common thing throughout ancient history, but this is something I think you can attribute to Christianity specifically.

01:10:45

So yes, uh, obviously not in many ways, many abuses, not a good system. Uh, but, uh, but there were

01:10:53

Christians who could operate and not be in sin. And if you started with, they were in sin, I think it's going to set you down a track where you're going to, uh, you're, you're probably going to take the neo abolitionist line on a lot of these other things, um, as well, like, like some of the issues

01:11:08

I just discussed. I'll take any questions on this. Um, cause I know, yeah,

01:11:14

I'm stepping into controversial territory, I guess, but it's, it's something I've talked about. I'm not shy about it anymore.

01:11:19

Uh, I, I used to just not want to talk about it as much myself, uh, cause I felt like, well, is this really an issue?

01:11:25

But apparently, uh, this kind of is, so M NPR, John is missing in action.

01:11:30

I don't, you, you can get NPR, John. I just don't know. I don't know if I can whisper right now.

01:11:37

My voice is like a shot a little bit. Uh, you have to understand, Samuel says, uh, you also have to understand that people in the

01:11:44

South knew about the survival rebellion and the Haitian slave revolution. That's very true. And they were very nervous about those things.

01:11:51

And they were nervous about abolitionists specifically fomenting those things. That's why John Brown was such a, uh, it was odious how people in abolitionist circles in the

01:12:02

North treated John Brown. They just couldn't conceive of, of why he would be lionized and compared to Christ and those kinds of things.

01:12:12

Wasn't the Atlantic slave trade, not chattel slavery. Uh, you make a wise separation there. Yeah, that's true.

01:12:18

Yeah. So, um, it was mainly Northeasterners, the people in the

01:12:24

Northeast who were the ones who were the captains who went over to the ivory coast and brought slaves to the

01:12:32

Americas and they sold them. They made a profit off of it. Uh, and so this was something that, um, there's conditions were horrible on the slave boats.

01:12:42

There's no question about that. There's even a Robert Louis Dabney says it was an iniquitous traffic. I mean, it was, if you were a slaver, all right, which is the term used back then slaver was for a slave ship or someone who engaged in, uh, in trading slaves, you were looked on as not a good person.

01:13:00

You were by slate. Even people who are slave masters in that society, they would not look at those people as great people.

01:13:08

Um, you have to put yourself a little bit in their position though. Like today, I think we have so many modern state examples or, or, uh, assumptions because what we end up doing,

01:13:16

I think often is we look back in history and we say, Hey, where was the government? The government should have been there in 1619.

01:13:21

And as soon as there were slaves brought to shore, the government should have stopped it. Well, there was no government. This happened organically over time until there were millions.

01:13:28

And then what is the government to do? That's part of what happened. The other thing is we have instant, uh, we, we have boats, we have planes, we have, we have instant traffic that we can, we can transport ourselves to Africa.

01:13:42

If I wanted to go to Africa, I could be there tomorrow. Back then, that wasn't the case.

01:13:49

And you put yourself in the position of a Jonathan Edwards and a boat comes over. What do you do in that situation?

01:13:55

I mean, honest question. You see these people who need charity, uh, who need a place to live and they've been through a lot.

01:14:05

And, um, if you're, I'm saying if you're a good, if, if you're a good Christian person, what do you do about that?

01:14:11

Do you take them in? Do you, um, you know, even I'm not saying just for the, for the sake of your house and making your house managed and all that, but just for the sake of their own wellbeing, do you take them in?

01:14:22

I think that there's an argument there probably like, you know, no one says like Oscar Schindler, you know, even though he engaged in basically a type of slavery with Jewish people, specifically children, even no one says

01:14:38

Oscar Schindler was evil because they know the purpose he had a purpose. He was trying to rescue people.

01:14:43

Right. So is that possible? That's the only thing I'm bringing up. Is that possible that, um, you know, they're, they're not going to make a return voyage and no one's going to bring them back.

01:14:54

And the chances of them, you know, you're going to treat them well, maybe another master's not, these are, this is the reality.

01:15:00

This is, this is the things you have to think through in, in that kind of situation, put yourself in the actual situation.

01:15:06

This is how history I think should really be done. You read primary sources, understand the context as best you can close your eyes and put yourself there.

01:15:14

If you want to try to evaluate it morally, most people don't do that. Uh, John is just an apologist for slavers and racist.

01:15:23

Yeah, that's, that's, that's what some people will gather that from this. I've just, uh, I don't apologize for anything though.

01:15:30

Uh, well, we're just about out of controversial topics. Time for a martyr bait interview, I guess, you know,

01:15:35

I should have martyr bait on, but I think he's too big for me now. You don't know who martyr made is. Um, I haven't listened to all his stuff, but I listened to his

01:15:43

Jeffrey Epstein thing. Oh my goodness. Go check out martyr made, uh, at some point. And he's now getting into world war

01:15:49

II and he was just on Tucker and apparently people are losing their minds over it. What happened to Micah Edmondson?

01:15:54

I don't know. I don't know. He was, yeah, I, I don't, I'm not sure where he is. Might want, might, uh, not,

01:16:03

I guess not want to blow the nose in the mic. Yes, I, yeah, we talked about that earlier. We talked about that earlier.

01:16:09

What happened there? Um, have you ever heard of the pro -slavery protests at George Washington university in DC in 1847, uh,

01:16:17

George Washington was still existed. The school was at the time of Baptist Bible, uh, college. If I did hear about it, I forgot about it.

01:16:23

There's a lot of things that I have read that I forgot about, but no, uh, you know, maybe I'll have to look into that. Uh, the

01:16:30

British empire had no problem getting rid of slavery worldwide. Well, they, yeah, they,

01:16:36

I mean, they certainly got rid of the slave trade and then, uh, and then they start. Yeah. I mean, I, that's a true statement and guess what they did.

01:16:43

I guess how they did it without a war. Interesting. Okay.

01:16:48

Um, one more thing. Now you're going to laugh. You are going to laugh. Um, okay.

01:16:55

One more comment. Lincoln may indeed be the bad guy of the war according to the South, but the shadow slavery had to end. Yeah. I think a lot of Southerners would have agreed with you on that.

01:17:02

I agree. Robert E. Lee would have agreed with that. Um, all right, let's, uh, let's do, let's do this.

01:17:08

You're going to laugh. I decided to, to, uh, clear the names to, uh, protect the guilty,

01:17:15

I suppose. But, um, someone posted this, this morning. Um, and they noticed that I had blocked them and they called me a backstabbing piece of a bleep.

01:17:25

And so, and then, you know, why would someone call me that? Right. This is someone who, um, of course, you know, blocked me was saying terrible things about me.

01:17:33

And so my general policy, if you block me, if you're saying terrible things about me and I can't really respond, I'm probably just going to block you.

01:17:39

You don't need to be seeing what I'm putting out there, or at least I'm not going to make it easy for you. Well, that's all that happened.

01:17:45

But then I guess this person noticed that I blocked them and that's what they say about me, which is, that's always a nice thing.

01:17:50

Right. So here's, here's the, I guess the argument saw this is in the comments and these are different people, but, um, saw this guy proudly proclaiming blacks as heritage

01:18:02

Americans in an attempt to avoid being called the white supremacist. And then the person who was upset that I was blocked said, this is the line their side has adopted.

01:18:12

They all need to bleep or get off the pot. And then someone said, uh, unfortunately they'll attempt to sit on the fence until the dust settles and then walk over to the winning side.

01:18:23

And then, uh, someone says, this is an astute observation. They will walk over to the winning side while claiming they were correct.

01:18:29

The entire time, you know, this is a bunker mentality that you just can't make it up.

01:18:35

Um, someone else says, I wondered about Harris in recent months. It sounded like he was legitimately defending white people from a placement, immigration and persecution, but then he praised blacks as heritage founding

01:18:45

Americans. I can't make heads or tails. And the response is this is insane.

01:18:50

This is from the person who, uh, uh, was upset that I blocked them. This is insane.

01:18:55

Indefensible line they're trying to hold. Somehow the status quo is legitimate in and of itself.

01:19:01

It's absurd and embarrassing, but some of them will choose to die with the lie. And then another response.

01:19:07

I don't understand why some of them are trying to recreate the proposition nation, but just an older version with the deadly flaws intact.

01:19:13

I still read some of them, but that thinking is a dead end. Their identities are public and it's hard to be successful without, uh,

01:19:19

PWC approval. All right. Um, so yes,

01:19:25

I, uh, I knew some of you would laugh because this is all happening within about 48 hours that I am a, uh,

01:19:33

I'm a kinest apparently, right? I'm a, uh, a slavery apologist. And I'm also a, uh, a trader to the white race at the same time because I like blacks too much.

01:19:47

So I figured I would just quickly address this. Um, when

01:19:53

I, I'm sorry, I can't keep myself from laughing. This is too funny. When I said that black people were heritage

01:20:00

Americans, it was in reaction to someone who was saying that using the term heritage

01:20:06

American is a dog whistle for white supremacy or something like that. So I was saying, no, it's not.

01:20:13

It's it's centering CJ angles. The one that really, I think came up with this, but it's centering a bundle of experiences.

01:20:20

Heritage America means your family has experiences going back in this country. CJ says,

01:20:26

I think he says the Ellis Island, you know, consensus basically like around that time that you can be, you can claim to be a heritage

01:20:32

American. You've lived through enough experiences in this country to, to, to, to claim that, well,

01:20:41

I was just saying black people are part of that. And CJ angle agreed with me. Uh, Stephen Wolf agrees with me.

01:20:48

I guess that's the day. So I'm part of this larger group and we're traders, I guess, because we say that, um, excuse me, if your family was, uh, brought here, right.

01:21:01

And in 1619, let's say go to the earliest and you're the descendant of them.

01:21:07

And they were slaves, uh, when they initially came or indentured servants, really, I guess that was the 1619 ship probably.

01:21:14

And cause yeah, slavery wasn't actually Anthony Johnson was the first that's another story. So, and they were indentured servants came here in 1619.

01:21:22

They're black. They're from Africa. You have a heritage that goes back a long way in this country.

01:21:29

That's what it means. You're you're, you have a, uh, American heritage. You're part of heritage

01:21:34

America. Now, one of CJ stipulations is look, if you're native, if you're like, uh, an indigenous person, like you were here before your family was here before settlers from England came or, or, you know, uh,

01:21:49

Dutch came or other groups, Spanish, then, um, in that case, and in the case of descendants of African slaves who came part of being a heritage

01:22:02

American and is also adopting this American ethos. I think that's the term he uses.

01:22:08

And it means you can't try to use these experiences against the majority.

01:22:13

You can't, you can't say, well, we were treated this way and therefore we're going to rip it down. We're going to do 2020.

01:22:20

So there's, um, there's a bundle of experiences and there's also a respect for the place that you live and the people you share it with and have traditionally shared it with for generations.

01:22:33

That's what CJ is getting at. I will let him explain more. If you want to go talk to him about it, you can probably find them on Twitter, but that's really all there is to it.

01:22:42

It's not, I'm not, there's no bone in my body. That's yeah. I have given up the illusion that I can avoid being called the name.

01:22:49

I'm going to be called the name as the last few days have clearly shown. I'm going to be called the name. So, um, no,

01:22:55

I'm not trying to avoid that by saying this. I'm trying to be accurate. I really think there, there are some people with deep roots in this country and they're not, uh, they're not white people, not all of them.

01:23:06

In fact, there's, there's more recent immigrants. I would consider someone who came, their family traces back to 1619 from Africa.

01:23:15

They have a, probably a deeper heritage than someone who came over from the socialist revolutions in Europe in 1848 from Germany and settled in the

01:23:23

Midwest somewhere. Um, they had their, just the longer time their family's been here. That's really all it is.

01:23:29

So it doesn't say, it doesn't mean that there aren't distinctions between different people groups that have settled here.

01:23:36

There are distinctions between different groups. Uh, you have different groups coming from different European countries that are different here.

01:23:44

So, um, I, I would think of America as an empire more than anything else, because there are these, there's different nations within,

01:23:50

I mean, have you ever like driven through the Navajo nation? It's part of America, but it's, it's just distinct people groups.

01:23:57

So I do think that there are distinct people groups and America is more of an empire. And you can think of it like the USSR or with the satellite

01:24:03

States or, or Rome, these were empires. They had different people groups, uh, in them, but, um, but so, so yeah, it doesn't mean that you're not a heritage

01:24:12

American. It doesn't mean that you're, uh, you know, because you're not white or something like that. And I think some of these guys who end up getting way too ideological on both.

01:24:25

So, so the people who've critiqued me over the last few days, um, and I'm sure I'll get more critiques along these lines, probably even a reaction to this episode.

01:24:32

I think that many of them just have a bad case of ideology. So it's either like you either have proposition nation guys who are like, uh, very adamant that you can have nothing attached to your, uh, identity, nothing tangible or physical or part of the temporal world.

01:24:51

It's really just gotta be this, uh, proposition, this abstraction of equality.

01:24:57

And if you adopt the abstraction, then you're an American, right? So you have those people that's ideology. Everything in life has this value attached to it.

01:25:04

It's either for or against equality. That's the woke crowd really. But there's a lot of neo -conservatives who, who are in that, that line as well.

01:25:11

And then you have the guys who end up getting into this, this, um, hyper specific, uh, racial racialized, like, uh,

01:25:20

I don't know if it's scientific racism or something where like you get the impression that if you take a

01:25:26

DNA test, they'll tell you whether or not you are an American or not.

01:25:32

Like everything in life now has this racial value of like either anti -white or pro -white or something like that.

01:25:38

And I just don't think reality is quite that simplistic. So there you go.

01:25:44

There's my responses to, uh, to those things. I'll take a few comments and then I gotta go. How do the extremes of 19th century abolitionism inform how we should view modern day anti -abortion abolitionism?

01:25:55

I think that there are parallels there. There definitely are. And I think though they are different issues.

01:26:00

So there's a much better case to be made, I think, for something that God directly.

01:26:06

So God, God says murder is evil. That's what's happening, right? Murder is wrong. It, it should be banned immediately.

01:26:12

No questions asked. There are, there's not a gradual way to get rid of murder, right? You just stop doing it.

01:26:18

So, um, so I think that is a difference. I could expand on that maybe in another episode, but, uh,

01:26:24

I don't have time today, but that, that's a big difference. Now their political strategy though, I think the way that they view friends and enemies,

01:26:30

I think is the same. A lot of abolitionists, I mean, they didn't even like Lincoln at first. I mean, they, they thought he was a traitor to them and stuff.

01:26:36

And they, they eventually got what they wanted, um, in large part, but they, they, they weren't exactly well loved by the people around them many times.

01:26:50

I mean, it, a lot of Northerners did not care for the abolitionists because they were, it was this ideology, ideological thing.

01:26:57

Like everything had a value attached to it, whether it was pro or anti -slavery and they couldn't see political realities.

01:27:06

They couldn't see how to build coalitions and be part of coalitions as well. Um, it was just, it was top down, uh, political, uh, positioning and with, with no ability to ever negotiate.

01:27:24

Um, it also has a very strong, not, not just an immediacy component, but there's a strong, very strong black and white component.

01:27:31

So you have to make anyone who's involved with slavery in any way whatsoever, any rudimentary attachment makes them intrinsically evil.

01:27:39

They're, they become like a demon at that point. Right. And I see that there's something similar,

01:27:44

I guess, with modern abolitionists in that. Um, some of them, not all of them, but, but, but there's some vocal ones who think that if you vote for Trump, even if you, like I do,

01:27:53

I think that, um, there's a case to be made that you're going to get the best deal with Trump from a pro -life standpoint, because you can work on the state level to oppose abortion.

01:28:04

You're not going to be able to do that. If Kamala Harris gets what she wants, which is a possibility, a very real possibility. Uh, I think at the same time, you're going to have people in Trump's administration who are pro -life you're going to, um,

01:28:16

I think just have more latitude. And because of that, I think it's a better option on that issue.

01:28:24

There's also the other issues that affect this issue that aren't directly related, like immigration.

01:28:29

If the Democrats get permanent majorities over the next four years, you can kiss pro -life agenda goodbye forever.

01:28:36

Like on a national level, you're just not going to ever get the votes to even work on the state level. So, um, so I think that you really, on a political level, if you want to make a political decision, you really have to vote for Trump.

01:28:47

If you don't want to make a political decision, if you just want to do the, I'm going to sit it out and vote my, this is my conscience. Okay, fine.

01:28:53

But don't, don't fool yourself into thinking this is like a political move. You're just, you're, you're really just sitting out.

01:28:59

I think the election at that point, you're not going, you're not contributing to, um, the final decision, uh, in a, in a meaningful way now.

01:29:09

And I'm not the one, I'm not going to say that a vote, you know, if you don't vote for Trump, you're voting for Kamala. I don't say that, but I do think that you're, you're forfeiting the vote basically.

01:29:17

Even if you're voting third party or your base, it's not a serious, uh, Ben Crenshaw just wrote an excellent piece for American reformer on this, which

01:29:23

I would encourage everyone to check out. But, uh, but I think that that's a problem. Once you start saying that,

01:29:28

Hey, I, you know, you vote for Trump, then you're, you're just evil or you're, you're in sin. I mean, I've seen people,

01:29:33

I, someone told me this, someone told me this, uh, at a conference that I was in sin for voting for Trump.

01:29:40

And I just, um, I don't know what to say to that. Like that's, that's a, you're on an, you're in an ideological category that is detached from reality.

01:29:51

I think at that point, in my opinion. So, uh, the race baiting has got to end.

01:29:59

I, uh, agree with that. The sit out like the Gordon pastor versus Webin argument.

01:30:06

Oh yeah. Yeah. You remember that? And we did an episode, uh, pastor Kerry Gordon, uh, talked to with Joel Webin and Andrew Risker about voting for Trump.

01:30:13

And, you know, I don't think pastor Kerry said you were in sin necessarily, but I, I think they're, they're probably, yeah, you could probably use his argument to get there if you wanted to,

01:30:22

I suppose. Um, he seems to be a little more reasonable in my opinion than some of them. Um, if you make people mad on both sides, you're right where you should be.

01:30:32

You know, I'd like to think that, but at the same time, isn't that the big Eva thing? Like they just want to be in the middle of everything.

01:30:38

So when I'm in the middle of something, sometimes I got to say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You know, it doesn't mean that you're in the wrong, you know, but, uh,

01:30:46

I, I see it. I really do see it though, is, um, you have ideologues over here and, and like,

01:30:52

I I'm a paleo conservative, I'm a traditional Christian. I don't think those things are ideological.

01:30:58

I don't think that we, we're not sifting everything through these like very rudimentary narrow channels of evaluation based upon one or two, uh, abstract principles of some kind.

01:31:09

Right. We're not like, we're not reducing all of life to this one thing and putting a value, um, on everything else in life as it relates to this one thing.

01:31:19

So I don't think that, um, that the conservative tradition or the

01:31:25

Christian tradition are that at all. There's a lot of tradition in those things. It's not just abstraction.

01:31:30

It's not just logic or cold reason. There's, there is tradition. There is experience. Those things exist in there.

01:31:36

There's universal principles as well, but, uh, but these are, um, these are somewhat sifted through a grid of, uh, of, of experience and time and, uh, generations of interaction and those kinds of things.

01:31:55

And, uh, um, as Roger Scruton said, it is conservatives recognize that good things are hard to create and very easy to destroy ideology.

01:32:05

Ideology tends to destroy. Jesse Bridges says after testing, if an embryo is founded to be incompatible with life, or there's a genetic defect found, it's near impossible, impossible to find a doctor who will implant that embryo.

01:32:20

Um, yeah, I, I, I don't know what your experience is, Jesse, and I don't want to ask you to get too personal.

01:32:27

I, uh, my understanding is, and I have many friends who have gone through this, that, uh, they, they work for you.

01:32:34

Those clinics work for you. They're going to do what you say. So if you put in, I'm, I'm, I know someone, I'm just going to say this.

01:32:40

I know someone who actually made a contract with the IBF clinic and a strong, uh, it's actually a pastor and they, they made a contract and the

01:32:54

IVF clinic had to abide by it. You are paying them. They work for you. So they will implant what you tell them to implant.

01:33:02

That's my understanding. There might be people who just don't want to play hardball. Like it's not even hardball, but there's, they just do whatever the clinic tells them and whatever standard, but you don't have to, you don't have to.

01:33:11

All right. Well, that's it for the live stream. God bless. Uh, and what I didn't get to today. We'll hopefully get to tomorrow.