Will the Church of the Nazarene Split Over LGBTQ Normalization?

Welcome once again to the

Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. I'm going to jump right to it because I don't have a lot of time today.

And I have a lot of material to get through regarding the Church of the Nazarene. I don't think I've ever talked about the Church of the

Nazarene before. At least I haven't dedicated an episode to that particular denomination, but they have, it's estimated over two and a half million members worldwide.

So they are smaller than something like the Southern Baptists, but they still are significant. In fact, the seminary, one of them that people go to if they want to serve in the

Church of the Nazarene is about an hour and 15 minutes, hour and a half south of where I am. And that means that even though there's a small evangelical presence in the area that I'm living now, there are a few

Nazarene churches around and different parts of the country have more or less,

I remember even when I was in Lynchburg, there was a local Nazarene church. And it was a conservative one from what

I understand. But this is an evangelical denomination. It is a denomination though, that's like the other denominations that we've talked about on this podcast, has undergone in the last few years, some of the same challenges.

And so you have the social justice stuff. We're not going to focus on BLM and race stuff, race related fractures that social justice thinking causes.

But from what I understand from the limited research I did do, those fractures are there in the

Church of the Nazarene. But I want to focus on something that I think goes even deeper and is probably the thing just like what we see happening right now at the

United Methodists. It is going to be the thing that probably truly divides the denomination. And so, of course, what

I'm talking about is the LGBTQ plus issue, affirming homosexual weddings, sanctioning them, that kind of thing is tearing the denomination apart.

It's not even the revoiced same sex attracted Christian stuff. In fact, I suspect that that's already somewhat accepted even by some of the conservatives in the denomination.

But it is more this more very aggressive posture that some have taken.

And I'm going to give you some names. I'm going to take you through some things, but I want to start keep an article. Sorry, that's not where I wanted to start.

I wanted to start here. If I can pull it up. This is an article that appeared at the

San Diego Union Tribune, San Diego Union Tribune. And I'm just going to read through some of this.

This was from August 18th. A popular pastor who led San Diego First Church of the

Nazarene for 17 years has lost his job after penning an essay that disagrees with religious doctrines forbidding same sex marriage.

Written by former senior pastor Selden D. Kelly, the third, the treatise is titled A Hope for Change and appears among 90 submissions that compose why the

Church of the Nazarene should be fully LGBTQ plus affirming a recently published book by theological scholar and dissenter

Thomas J. Ord. So you have a pastor who's influenced by this particular book that is the here it is on Amazon.

I'll just pull it up for you. That is about affirming LGBTQ plus lifestyles, etc.

Now just to give you a little sample of this. We'll, I'll give you a little clip.

This is from, I guess, from what I understand one of the more conservative Orthodox guys in the denominations,

Jim Garlow. But he posts an excerpt from this. This is from the book in May of 2019. So I'm taking a break from the article so people know and I'm just letting you know what the article is talking about.

They reference this book that this pastor was affirming or, you know, agreed with.

Here's an excerpt from that book. It says that in May of 2019, the

Board of General Superintendents approved a new ruling regarding legislation on human sexuality and marriage. The ruling stated that a person with same -sex attraction who feels called to ministry must commit to a life of celibacy.

Okay, there you go right there. So they can allow, you know, this is already, I think, a compromise in a way.

It's a compromised salute, not in the good way that, you know, the good sense of compromise, but the bad sense.

It's assuming that you can have these attractions, desires, etc. as long as you just don't act on them, that's fine.

And so it gives you a space for same -sex traction, I suppose, to operate and to use it as neutral, the attraction itself.

The same document includes the ruling that Nazarene clergy shall not bless or perform same -sex marriage ceremonies.

I disagree. A person with same -sex attraction should be allowed to marry. So already,

I mean, that's all you need to know, right? Nazarene clergy, it says, should be allowed to perform same -sex marriage ceremonies if they desire to do so, and Nazarene clergy should feel free to bless these same -sex ceremonies.

So there you go. There's a little sample for where the book is going to potentially take you.

Thomas J. Ord, and I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. It's O -O -R -D. So I hope

I am. And if I'm not, forgive me. Feel free to let me know in the comment section or something.

But this is a bio for him. Thomas J. Ord is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multidisciplinary studies.

He is award -winning author or editor of more than 30 books. He directs the Northwind Theological Seminary doctoral program in Open and Relational Theology and the

Center for Open and Relational Theology. So he's one of their theologians, and he's president of several scholarly societies.

We'll talk maybe a little later about a publishing company he has. I think it might have been the publishing company that put this out, if I'm not mistaken.

And look, it has 73 ratings. When did this come out? I think a few years ago? 20? No. This came out in 2023,

April. This is new. This is recent. And it already has, for a denomination of that size, to have the...

That means it's getting traction. That means it's getting traction. So that's what the article is referring to.

Here's a picture, by the way. I should show you this, of Thomas J. Ord. It says on Twitter, this black beauty came in the mail today.

And he's talking about a t -shirt for those who are listening. It says, ask me why the Church of the Nazarene should be fully LGBTQ plus affirming with a rainbow pattern in the background.

So he's poking the bear. I don't think there is a bear. He's poking something.

He's sticking his nose into this, and he's really doing it in an aggressive way.

So this San Diego Tribune article, it references that and says, this pastor,

Seldon D. Kelly, he was one of the... He submitted, I suppose, an essay.

I think that's what it is. He submitted an essay that was in this compilation in this book. Kelly confirmed by email

Thursday that denominational Nazarene leadership informed him on August 14th that a denominational judiciary process found that he was in violation of denominational clergy standards because of his essay.

The pastor declined to say more about the as he has appealed the church's decision. Kelly also confirmed that Thomas Tyler, superintendent of the

Southern California District of the Church of the Nazarene, asked for his resignation. And when it was not forthcoming, started the hearing process, which occurred after a complaint was filed by a group of church elders outside the first church congregation.

Kelly confirmed these facts, but Taylor or Tyler, I think it's Taylor, did not respond this week to requests for comment.

Dean Nelson, a member of the first church board and director of journalism program at Point Loma Nazarene University, said in an email

Friday afternoon that Kelly continues to enjoy broad support from the congregation. So now you have a problem.

You have a popular pastor at, I guess it's an influential church, that they are going to support, at least a sizable amount of people in that church are going to support their pastor's stance against the denomination.

And it's on an issue that the denomination's right. Now the nomination's, I think, compromised on this, but they're at least have the guts to say and to try to enforce that the biblical criteria is marriage is between one man and one woman.

And that's, as far as I know, I have, I'm trying to, I don't have the document right in front of me, but I'm assuming that's what it says, or at least marriage is heterosexual, something along those lines.

It's not extended to same -sex attracted couples. They don't, that's not a ceremony that Nazarene pastors are authorized to participate in, et cetera.

So now I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think that the process is still in limbo.

This hasn't been fully resolved yet. And so it remains to be seen, but if you're in the church of the Nazarene, this is good to know that this is happening.

And maybe you want to have a conversation with your pastor about it. I don't know. I'm not sure what can be done, but maybe just even for encouragement, people need to, who have the truth, stand together.

Pastor Kelly and his family have provided outstanding service and ministry to our church. Let's see. The pastor's essay summarizes the church of the

Nazarene stance on same -sex relationships, citing a 2019 ruling, which found that a person with same -sex attraction who feels called to the ministry must commit to a life of celibacy and that clergy should not bless or perform same -sex marriage ceremonies.

This stance, Kelly argues, should be reconsidered through broad conversation that goes beyond church leadership. So the revoiced stuff, and I use revoiced.

I know that's PCA. The people in the Nazarene church might not even be aware, but maybe they are. Who knows? But shorthand, it's called revoiced theology, the same -sex attracted

Christianity stuff. It's a holding pattern for a progressive shift from the biblical criteria to a new mode or new ethical system, which is thoroughly secular and liberal.

I think what I've said many times on this podcast, others have said the same thing, is that this whole,

I'm same -sex attracted but won't act on it, is just a temporary phase.

It's a stepping stone from orthodoxy to heterodoxy or heresy.

I believe that our viewpoints are spread across the spectrum. So he's saying, hey, we can have this coalition where we all have different views on this.

I fear that we are headed for a crisis confrontation, just like our denominations before us. I will wager that that's another stepping stone, because then once you have control, then you force pastors, because this is happening in other denominations like the

PCUSA. I just had breakfast with a brother who's in the Episcopalian church.

They will put pressure on you if you don't go along. So these are just stepping stones to full apostasy.

I am unable to justify telling a couple who are in love with Christ and each other, seeking godly counsel and participating in the life of the church, that I must refuse them blessing and participation in the sacrament of marriage.

Well, what about a couple who, I don't know, let's say it's a child who says they are giving consent.

They're seven, eight years old, and let's say they love Christ. You would say, well, that's ridiculous,

John. How dare you compare that to that? Well, I'm not saying they're the same thing as a one -to -one.

I'm saying that it's the same logic, though. You can use the same logic to justify that. There's a lot assumed here that if it's godly counsel, it's not going to happen.

If they love Christ, they're going to want to, what does Christ say? Obey my commandments. So they're already in violation of that.

Okay, though I'm currently prohibited from joining two people in same -sex matrimony, I can't imagine withholding blessing, encouragement, counsel, or love.

And it did create a schism at the church with a photograph circulating of a large group of parishioners accompanying and praying for Kelly just before his hearing.

Locally, now this gets into the broader Nazarene church, Point Loma Nazarene University, which is a separate institution than First Church, found itself under fire for the dismissal of Mark Maddox.

So separate situation, but related. A dean of the private college's school of theology, an associate of LGBTQ plus alumni recently released a statement condemning the firing, which the organization deems an effort to punish an adjunct professor for her support of LGBTQ plus rights.

Now let's look at this document. I know I have it here somewhere.

Oh, by the way, I should point out that I believe that book was published by Sacra Sage Press, which publishes another similar books.

And at least at one time, it had the email address for Ord, his school email address.

And so, yeah, that's, there is a connection there. And then

I thought that was significant, at least. You have, let's see, do we want to,

I don't know, this is the statement. I'll just put this up here real quick. This is a statement before we move on to the issue with the school from the pastor

D, the decision of the regional disciplinary board has been made regarding my case.

The decision is that I'm guilty of teaching doctrine, contrary to the church. And the consequence is the surrender of my ministerial credentials.

That means that as of today, I'm no longer the pastor of San Diego first church of the

Nazarene. I plan to appeal the decision and will likely initiate that process on Monday. Once the appeal is filed, the entire process is supposed to be completed within 30 days.

So we're in that 30 day time period. We'll see what happens. I don't anticipate that the outcome will be any different.

So he's assuming that it's going to end this way, that he's going to be booted from the church. There is regularly scheduled board meeting.

And so he's thanking people for their encouragements, et cetera. And then of course, there is a petition out there,

Thomas J. Ward put out there. And this is, we'll actually get to this,

I think in a minute, but it is, it is actually regarding Reverend D Kelly. Okay. So this is basically support, show solidarity for Reverend D Kelly.

And isn't it terrible what's happening to him? All right.

So here's the statement that the article, now we're moving to the other issue of this school, the

Loma Nazarene University, Point Loma Nazarene University. And I just wanted to show you one thing from this.

This is the diversity and LGBTQ issues. So here's the press release.

I don't really want to read that. It's pretty much what you would expect. It's terrible what they're doing. I mean, you have organizations like this all over the place.

I mean, I understand some of the most conservative colleges supposedly even have this. And if they don't have it officially, they have it unofficially.

I mean, I saw this even at Liberty University when I was there. They're not allowed to have an official LGBTQ plus group, but there is an unofficial one.

And our outside resources coming to it. I mean, I can't give you a primary source, but it's possible.

It's very possible. You have similar things happening. I mean, there's a group of alumni who are

LGBT friendly. That's not even the right way to put that. They are pro perversion at Patrick Henry College.

And they push back against Rosaria Butterfield. We talked about that a few months ago.

And so these things are happening at these conservative universities. So they operate like political action committees almost.

They really do function in these official capacities. I mean, well -written article or a letter.

And we're not going to read that, but I do want to show you this is something else that they wrote.

And I just thought this is a great example of how this stuff gets in. Diversity and LGBTQ plus issues at Point Laguna Nazarene University.

And so it talks, it uses a lot of language that we would be familiar with, but I want to jump to something that I thought was, it stood out.

They take credit for something. So they, so in the midst of this firing, because someone went, this gentleman, what's his name?

Mark Maddox, I guess, went beyond the pale. But there's progressive changes going on, even in these institutions.

And so you have some guys who run out in front too fast and they get knocked down a little bit, but the trajectory is going their direction.

Listen to this. Student handbook changes at the university. In 2016 -17, Voices of Love, this is their,

I guess, organization, the LGBT group, spent an entire session discussing the sexual conduct and gender identity statements in the

Point Laguna or Point Loma. Did I say Laguma? Isn't it Loma? Didn't I say

Loma earlier? Yeah, I think so. Point Loma. Yeah. Spent an entire session discussing sexual conduct and gender identity issues at Point Luma Nazarene University in their student handbook.

So this is the university, Church of the Nazarene -affiliated university has a student handbook. Now, all

Christian universities have this, and generally you have sexual ethics there.

You have a bunch of things. Some students had never read the policies. Others understood the institution's need to align with the

Church of the Nazarene. However, they did not agree with the way LGBTQ individuals and issues were isolated in the policy statements.

After examining the policy together, participants expressed concern that many LGBTQ students felt marginalized, not by the stance taken.

No, no, no. Couldn't be that, right? It's not the doctrine, but by the particular language used in the student handbook. So it's style points.

It's, hey, we felt offended by the language you use. Why would you say something that hurtful? This is how you get your foot in the door.

You don't go directly assault the doctrine because it's biblical and you'll get pushback. You go around it.

How do you do that? You appeal to someone's emotion. Hey, someone's hurting over here. To respond to the student concerns, the official, and this is what happens, the

Office of Student Development had changed the language in their 2017 and 2018 student handbook. And if you ask me, 2017,

I think, is probably when this battle was lost in the Church of the Nazarene in some ways. Now, I mean,

I don't want to discourage people who are still fighting there, and I'm not an expert on the denomination, but you have significant things like this happen, and it's not just here.

I'll show you another example in a moment. While the university's behavioral expectations for all students remains the same, the new policy includes two statements that were specifically added to communicate care for LGBTQ students.

Oh, what could those be? University seeks to be a community where lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex persons are treated with dignity, grace, and holy love in the spirit of Christ.

We recognize the complexity of current issues related to same -sex attraction, same -sex marriage, and gender identity.

It's not that complex, guys. The university desires to faithfully care for all students while engaging these conversations with respect, care, humility, courage, and discernment.

A student or potential student who needs assistance with matters related to gender identity, such as gender dysphoria, sexually ambiguous birth, legally altered birth documentation is invited to discuss these concerns with the

Associate Dean of Student Success and Wellness, who will provide support, care, and assistance in accessing university resources.

So there you go. We will give you the university resources. If you have a problem because of this particular identity and the suffering, the discrimination, all the hardship that comes with this, we are not part of any of that here at the university at Point Loma.

We are instead committed to caring for you, and that means, I guess, tiptoeing. So this is a success.

This is something that this pro -LGBTQ group that wants to push for things like same -sex marriage, this is the kind of thing that they're championing because they know what this is.

They know that this is a shift, and it represents a doctrinal shift even.

And then the other thing is in this section here, it says that these changes, as well as continued efforts of the

Voices of Love group aimed to ensure that Point Loma Nazarene University is a welcoming and supportive place for LGBTQ plus students.

Continued efforts. This isn't enough. This doesn't appease them. There's got to be more efforts. If we're not smart, this is the thing.

I sometimes have a hard time, I suppose, being compassionate. I don't even know if compassion is the word.

I'm not necessarily easy on administrators, professors, people in authority who can't see this for what it is, that this kind of thing is a stepping stone, that this is what shifts public opinion in your own denomination and university.

This is the kind of thing. You can say you're doctrinally sound all day until the cows come home, until you're red in the face.

It doesn't matter when you start giving into these kinds of demands and assuming that there's this power disparity and that they need extra resources because of some kind of LGBTQ plus identity and privileges and all the things that come with this.

It is not biblical language. They don't speak about this in the way the Bible speaks about it. That's what's going on.

This is happening all over the place, but who knows how many other places, universities, etc., in the

Church of the Nazarene might have this kind of thing going on as well. Continuing with the article here, let's see here.

I lost my place on the article. As an institution, we are trying to be carefully and thoughtfully navigate the tensions between these two strongly held beliefs.

If you're sincere and it's strongly held, you get points somehow for that. What if your strongly held belief is wrong?

If you apply this to the less fashionable sins of the left, what's the one that Owen Strand is now talking a lot about and saying he's going to go after?

Kinnism. Kinnism is the boogeyman. I think I might know of two people who claim the title

Kinnist. I don't even know them. I just know of them. They don't have a lot of influence.

All three of them are going to be very convicted by what Owen Strand and others are saying about this.

That issue aside, I should probably take another podcast to talk about this, which I probably will at some point. That is a sin of the left.

You can't be a Kinnist. In fact, I was looking at Google Books just briefly to see, hey, is this term even mentioned?

It's mostly in leftist sources going after. It's a little bit like Christian nationalism in the sense that it's leftist pejorative sources are the ones that mostly use the term.

Not that the two are parallel at all. Some people think that. Anyway, that is a horrible thing.

What if you said, but you know what? Someone who's a Kinnist, they have it sincerely. Would people at the

Nazarene University accept that? Well, as long as it's sincere. These strongly held beliefs, we just want to be careful and thoughtful about these things.

No. It's punch right, nuance left. That is always, it seems, is the way it goes.

Nuance it. If you don't agree with it, nuance it. It's a tightrope walk, not restricted to Nazarene communities or to San Diego.

You've already lost if it's just a tightrope walk. Disagreement over same -sex ministry has recently bisected many religious circles.

It talks about the Methodist, and then it gives you a wider context, gives you some stats, and that's it for the article.

Let me just give you a few more things to chew on here. There's a blog post from 2020, as long ago as 2020, why

I can no longer support Nazarene Theological Seminary. This is by, where is this? Who is this by?

I knew who this was by. Jared Henry is the name. It goes through just some,

I'm not going to go through them. I don't have time to do that right now, but it goes through some concrete examples of where there is doctrinal shifts and drift.

I'm grateful that these people are out there, even if it's smaller blogs, that there are people who are trying to call attention to some of these things.

Some of these people, they need your support. If you're in the Nazarene denomination, find these people. This is jaredkhenry .blogspot

.com. Here's an example. This is that particular

Nazarene Theological Seminary. You have a guy there.

Anyone can do this, I suppose, posting LGBT stuff. It says, Happy Reformation Day at Nazarene Theological Seminary.

Martin Luther nailed 95 theses to the Wittenberg Castle Church 503 years ago. This is in 2020.

Today, we call for reform at Nazarene Theological Seminary for the full inclusion of LGBTQIA plus sisters and brothers, their humanity, their callings, their

Imago Dei. That's right. If you deny this, it's the same logic that was used on the race stuff.

If you don't let immigrants and asylum seekers and foreigners in the country, or you're against it, or you think that we should have a wall, you're denying the image of God.

That's what Russell Moore told us. It's the same play, guys. I would submit to you that is an absolute distortion of the

Imago Dei doctrine. It means you're made in the image of God. You have intrinsic value and worth because of the fact that you are a created being, not like the animals or plants.

There is this thing that you can't even quite quantify, but it's special and we all know it's there.

It means if you murder someone, you yourself are deserving of death because people are so valuable.

The image of God. Now, some have extrapolated that out to mean abstract thought and creativity.

That may be, but here's the thing. That does not mean that there are no hierarchies, that there are no disparities, that we have to accept every perversion that there is out there.

It doesn't mean any of that. The leftists love to take our doctrines, our good, true, wonderful doctrines, and then corrupt them to use them in these ways.

Now, one of the guys that could probably do something about these shifts who has some authority and influence is

Dr. T. Scott Daniels. He was elected general superintendent in the Nazarene at the 30th

General Assembly in June 2023, so earlier this year. At the time of his election, he was serving as senior pastor at Nampa College Church in Idaho.

This is a guy who's got some authority, some clout in the denomination. Yet, if you look at his podcast, you're going to see something interesting.

Now, I don't know of all of these people, and maybe there's some good ones. I haven't heard of all of them, but as I was just scrolling through here,

I saw Dr. Paul D. Miller. Now, Paul Miller is out there. Paul Miller is someone who's so anti -Christian nationalist.

He's just applied the term to every pro -Christian, conservative political action taken since the moral majority.

I've read some of his stuff, and the guy is definitely on the left. There's no question, no matter what he says about being moderate.

He had him on the podcast, and I don't think it was to disagree with him. I haven't listened to it, but it doesn't look like it was to disagree, because the title is

What's Wrong with Christian Nationalism. You have Centering Immigrants, Karen Gonzalez on centering immigrants in our

Christian response to immigration. That was in 2022. It wasn't that long, less than a year ago. James K .A.

Smith, well, there's someone who's really out there on how to inhabit time and his journey as a

Christian philosopher. James K .A. Smith, I believe, is LGBTQ plus affirming, etc. This is just a sample of the kind of things you can get if you go to Scott Daniels' podcast.

Let's see here. Here's just a post of him also supporting the

Enneagram. We've done some episodes on the Enneagram. Scott Daniels likes the Enneagram. Obviously, lack of discernment at the very least, perhaps more.

Now, where did the Church of the Nazarene go off the rails is the question. I want to bring to your attention this.

This is on human sexuality, section 32 from the

Church of the Nazarene manual. This is 2013 to 2017. This was in effect. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I did a word search here.

I want you to see the word perverted. It comes up three times. Let me read for you the sentences it comes up in.

Sexuality misses its purpose when treated as an end in itself or when cheapened by using another person to satisfy pornographic and perverted sexual interests.

Okay, here's another sentence. Homosexuality is one of the means by which human sexuality is perverted. Here's another one.

We recognize the depth of the perversion that leads to homosexual acts. Okay, that was up until 2017.

This is what the Church of the Nazarene believed. Do you want to know what they believe now? Now, I think this is their replacement document.

Let's see if perversion doesn't even come up. They don't even have the word perversion in the document.

It looks like it's much longer, which many of them are getting long, but you know what word takes the place of it? Brokenness.

Our brokenness in the areas of sexuality takes many forms due to our own choosing, and some brought into our lives by a broken world.

It goes through. It mentions brokenness 10 times. Sexual sin and brokenness, dealing with brokenness of humanity in the areas of sexuality.

People of God have always welcomed broken people, refused to participate redemptively in discerning the roots of brokenness.

It's like the sin substitute. It includes the welcome of love, which invites all the broken person into the circle of grace.

We fail to honestly confront sin and brokenness. We cannot participate in God's healing of brokenness.

Does it even apply to sexuality? Homosexuality comes up once.

A person's homosexual or bisexual attraction may have complex and differing origins, and the implications of this call to sexual purity is costly.

We believe that the grace of God is sufficient for such a calling. This is what you get from the Church of the 2017 -2021.

You might think to yourself, this is just the way things go.

You have to maintain orthodoxy somehow. The way to do it is give the left a little bit of what they want.

Don't cave, though, on our actual beliefs as believers, as Christians. The problem is when you start to give the moose a muffin, you do cave on your actual beliefs.

That's always where it leads. You want to know the guy who's still active in the denomination, influencing people in negative ways, is this

Ord guy. I want to play for you one of the examples here of Thomas J.

Ord talking about—well, I'll just let you listen.

I should just warn everyone, by the way, this is offensive. This is just one podcast where he laughs at a joke, and he doesn't correct—I'll be worried lightning would strike, but here's what he finds acceptable.

But because oftentimes there were moments, we learned very quickly the sacredness of intimacy, and that intimacy can be found in weird places and strange places.

I often know the scripture to validate this. Mary Madeline was the one who saw

Jesus when he was resurrected, but I often say the only reason why the resurrection happened and she was the one that saw it was because she had an intimate relationship with Jesus.

What I mean by that is I'm not saying that she was his lover or anything like that, even though I kind of wish that was the case.

Like, I'd hope the dude had sex at some point while he was on earth. The part about having

Christ as your lover, that would be phenomenal. I think that'd be some good sex.

But anyway. I don't know if I have—I don't have words, really.

I just figured I'd show you. I mean, would you trust a guy like that who just laughs at that, thinks that's great?

To—that's like as bad—maybe not quite as bad, but it's almost as bad as that Michael Byrd comment from like a year or two ago—I'm not even going to repeat it, it's so terrible—about

Jesus. How do you claim that that's the God you worship?

How do you claim even as a professor, my mission is to bring people closer to Jesus and then laugh at something like that?

I don't know that I need to say anything. I think it just refutes itself, at least for true believers when they hear that. That's extremely offensive.

You hope that Jesus was in—what's the priority you have towards sexuality?

I mean, is that the chief thing? Is that more important than living a holy life and being in a right relationship with God so that you could have an adulterous or fornicating relationship with someone and so that you have that experience?

That's out there. That is out there. That's something that I think the rank -and -file

Nazarenes need to understand. This is going on in your denomination. You have people like this in your denomination.

What do you do about it? I don't have all the answers for that, but I thought at least you should know. That's the podcast for today.

I should probably say in closing that—because I've been plugging it just about every episode—check out the men's conference coming up.

If you're interested, overcomingevilconference .com. It won't be anything like what you've experienced in this particular podcast coming from the

Nazarene Church. It will be a good men's conference. It's coming up September 21st through 24th.

I look forward to seeing you there. Sign up soon if you're thinking of coming. God bless. That's it.