October 26, 2023 Show with Ryan Hartzel on “Tips on Declaring the Gospel to Strangers”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 26th day of October 2023.

And I'm thrilled to have a first-time guest today, a young man who has been very impressive to me and also a blessing to me to witness his evangelistic zeal and passion to bring the gospel to the lost.

His name is Ryan Hartzell. He is a Reformed Baptist open-air evangelist, and today we're going to be discussing tips on declaring the gospel to strangers and overcoming obstacles when opposed. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ryan Hartzell.

Thank you, Chris. It is a joy to be here with you. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Yeah, me too, brother. And I am going to give our listeners our email address right away so that they can submit questions to you if they have any that come to mind during our conversation. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Well, Ryan, as our tradition has it on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and also the kinds of providential experiences that our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So let's hear your story.

Absolutely.

So I grew up in a home where we went to a Roman Catholic church, and I was baptized in a Roman Catholic church, but it was really just our family's tradition. I really had no idea what was going on. And then when I was about 12 years old, one of our neighbors invited my mom to go to an evangelical church in our town.

And my mom went to this church, and then my family started going as well. And we would mainly just go on Christmas and Easter. And then every once in a while, we would go throughout the year, but we would stop going when we would say we would get too busy.

So I thought I was a Christian growing up. I thought if you go to church, that automatically makes you a Christian. I thought I was a good person because I was comparing myself to my friends. And it wasn't until I was 24 years old where the Lord really turned the world upside down for me.

My mom had severe anxiety and depression since I was about 18 years old. And from 18 to 24, my mom would try to commit suicide, and it was very difficult for our family.

Yes.

And when I was 24 years old, I was out in New Jersey at a track and field coaching clinic because my undergrad was in exercise science. So I've spent years coaching and training athletes. So I was there being trained to be a more effective coach.

And no one was home with my mom back in Enola, Pennsylvania. And she went out for a run that day, and her goal was not to come back from that run. And she actually ran out in front of a car and was run over by that car.

And she did live through it. It was a miracle by God's grace. She was flown to the ICU where she spent a whole week. And then after the week in the ICU, she was in the general hospital. And then she came home, and we really had to take care of her.

As you can imagine, the amount of injuries that she had and the surgeries that she had lined up after she had gotten out of the hospital, it was very difficult for all of us. And my world was, like I said, turned upside down.

I didn't know what I really wanted to do in my life. Things were falling apart with my family. And it wasn't just things outside of me that I knew were going haywire. I knew there was something wrong on the inside of me.

I knew that I had a heart issue because my conscience had been killing me for years. I would be convicted of my sin, but I would just suppress that truth. I would not want to deal with it. But right after my mom got back from the hospital, I had this desire for the first time in my life, and that was to read the Bible.

And before that, I mean, I had no desire ever to read the scriptures. I would try to because I thought that's what good Christians do. But it would just be like a newspaper to me. But I'll tell you, the moment I opened up the Bible after my mom got back from the hospital, I knew that was God's Word.

And I was in the Gospel of John, and I just remember being mesmerized by the Word of God. And I was quickly convicted of my sins. I read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and then the rest of the New Testament. And this is over the summer of 2016.

And at some point during that summer, the Lord brought me from death to life. And I repented of my sins and placed my faith in Christ alone. And I remember then walking in to the Hershey Medical Center, a nearby hospital for us, and my mom was getting another surgery.

And I remember just knowing that Christ lived in me. I was a new creation. I had this love for God in my heart, and I had this love for my neighbor that I never had before. And this desire immediately to go make Christ known.

I didn't even really know what the Great Commission was. I just knew I'd been saved from my sins and the wrath of God and been given eternal life. And I had to share this with other people. I could not hold it in.

It was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, the Lord saving me. And I wanted people desperately to know the grace of God like I now knew it.

Well, praise God. And by the way, folks, I forgot to mention when I introduced Ryan that we met in a very unusual way by God's providence. The reason why I say it is unusual is because we're both from Pennsylvania.

And not only both from Pennsylvania, we're only about a half hour away from each other as far as where we live. And yet I met Ryan in Denton, Texas, at the Bible Church, the Denton Bible Church. And there was a conference there, and I believe it was dealing with the woke movement in particular.

It was an expose, a critique, a condemnation of woke theology. And I was sitting there at my Iron Sharpens Iron radio exhibitor's booth. And this young man comes up to my booth and starts greeting me and asking me a couple of questions.

And I look at his name tag, and it says Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. And I said, you're from Mechanicsburg? I said, I'm from Carlisle. And it wasn't long after that that Ryan joined the same church where I am a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

So I just thought I'd throw that out there. It never ceases to amaze me what God's providence will bring about in the lives of his people. And so as far as your understanding of doctrine and theology, how did you become introduced to the doctrines of sovereign grace and come to embrace and love them?

That's a great question. So I knew right off the bat that I did not choose Christ. I knew that he chose me because I went from really being ignorant to God, hating God, not wanting anything to do with the word of God, to all of a sudden loving God and wanting to be in the scriptures, loving Christ, wanting to make him known.

I'm like something radically transformative has happened in my soul that I did not do because it was like I was walking around in a dark room and all of a sudden the lights were turned on. I came to life.

So before I was saved, I was big into hip hop and not a very godly form of hip hop either. So I was converted and knew I did not want to listen to that garbage anymore, not hear about drugs and sex and money and all that.

So I quickly looked up Christian hip hop and I discovered this one guy named Shilin and Timothy Brindle, and they're both reformed men who really use hip hop as a platform to preach sound doctrine. I mean, I wouldn't even call it just Christian hip hop.

I would just call it lyrical theology. So I'm reading through my Bible. I really didn't have anyone discipling me. And I'm listening to Shilin and I'm hearing these songs like Regeneration and he has an album called The Attributes of God.

I'm like, wow, this is all found in scripture. And he has one song called Election. And I'm like, no way. This is the truth. This is what I see in Romans nine. This is what I see in Ephesians one. And it's all lining up.

So I really became reformed through listening to Shilin and came to love and embrace the doctrines of grace. So I'm so grateful to God for that brother. I'd love to meet him one day and share my story with him.

I'm sure he's heard it many times from other people as well.

Well, interestingly enough, another providential connection here. My former co-host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Buzz Taylor, who now lives in Massachusetts, but he used to live in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And he worked for a couple of trucking companies and he was designated to instruct some new employees or actually they weren't even employees yet. They had to pass the driving test to see if they were qualified to become employees.

And one of those people was Shilin. And he was so bad at it that Buzz recognized he could never be a truck driver. I'm not sure he didn't explain the details. Maybe they almost maybe shy, almost killed Buzz when he was in the truck with him.

I don't know, but he just could tell that the driving a truck was not in Shilin's future. So he actually gave him a an extra car, used car that he owned, meaning Buzz gave it to Shilin. And this is obviously long before he became a Christian rapper or Christian hip hop artist.

But I just thought I'd throw that out there as well. Kind of an interesting providential connection.

I love that.

The Call to Open-Air Preaching

So where did you come to develop an interest in an actual eventually participation in open air preaching?

Yes.

So the moment I was saved, I knew I wanted to take the gospel to the lost, but I really had no idea what I was doing. And I remember looking up online ways to evangelize. So I ordered some gospel tracks and I remember passing them out for the first time in a local giant grocery store.

And going up to this one older man and I was so scared, I was shaking as I reached my arm out to give him that gospel tract.

And you never would have guessed that there was a time when you were like that. You're so extroverted now and aggressive and aggressive in a good way. What's the word I'm looking for? A gregarious and passionate way you are reaching out to the lost.

But anyway, go ahead.

Yeah, that's definitely what most people say. But that was where it all started with my evangelistic efforts. And then from there, I just started out engaging people in conversations. Usually starting with gospel tracks as somewhat of an icebreaker.

And I did that for about four years. And I went to Bethlehem College and Seminary out in Minneapolis, Minnesota, John Piper's school in 2020. And my roommate, his name was Stephen Clayton, and he was an open air preacher.

He would go to abortion mills every Saturday. And I kid you not, I thought he was crazy.

What led you to that conclusion?

I'm just like, this guy's out on a street corner preaching the gospel. What good is that ever going to do? Now that I think back on it, that was just my own flesh talking. I was fearful. I was convicted because I knew I had such a heart for the lost.

And I wanted to get the gospel to as many people as I could. And open air preaching is definitely a way to go about doing that. And I knew God had called me to preach. So why not preach on a street corner or a college campus at an abortion mill?

So I was really just convicted. And he would invite me to come out on Saturday mornings. And I'd always tell him, no, I don't want to do that. And then I came back home after a semester at Bethlehem College and Seminary.

And that's when I joined Grace Baptist Church and was very encouraged by the folks there. Because they saw that I had an evangelistic zeal and they were saying, you know, you should get out there. No one ever said anything about open air preaching.

But I'm on YouTube a lot watching sermons. And I would start to see open air preaching videos come up every once in a while. Someone like Ryan Denton, who you've had on this show.

Yes. Yes.

He wrote the book A Certain Sound, which is about open air preaching. He co-authored it. And very much enjoyed interviewing Ryan on a number of occasions.

Yeah.

So I actually picked up that book then after listening to him on YouTube. And I'm reading the book and I actually went through the book multiple times. I knew God was calling me to get out there and lift up the name of Christ in the public square.

But again, I was just too afraid to go out and do it. So fast forward to a Sunday morning. This is the fall of 2022. And we are finishing up with the Sunday morning service. And one of the older gentlemen in Grace Baptist Church came up to me and said, you know, Ryan, there's some preachers in the back that you should go and talk to.

And I said, oh, cool. Absolutely. So I go back there and I meet these three preachers. Turns out they're open air preachers. One of them is Scott Smith.

Oh, yeah.

Yes. Who co-authored the book with Ryan Denton. And then Jimmy Hamilton, who's known as the street preacher of the UK. The guy's been preaching in the streets for, I think, 40 years faithfully. It's just amazing.

And he's 79 now. And then Don Carnes, who's another faithful open air preacher. And I'm talking with these guys in the back. And Scott Smith said, are you interested in open air preaching? You know, have you done it before?

And I said, I haven't done it before. I'll be honest with you. I'm just afraid to get out there. I don't know anyone around here doing it. I want to see it modeled for me. He goes, well, in the spring, why don't you come down to Raleigh and I'll train you.

So. This past spring, 2023 in March, I went down to Raleigh, North Carolina, and Scott Smith and some of the other brothers down there, like Joe Toy and Tommy Waltz. They all trained me for a week in open air preaching.

And I just fell in love with it and have been open air preaching ever since. So I am indebted to these brothers who really poured into me. And I've been able to preach with them and continue to preach with them and learn so many different tools to the trade from these men.

Amen. Well, we're going to be going to our first commercial break. And when we come back, we'll have you continue to address the theme at hand for us. And once again, that theme that we are going to be focusing on today is tips on declaring the gospel to strangers and overcoming obstacles when opposed.

If you have a question, our email address is ChrisArnson at Gmail dot com. ChrisArnson at Gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Ryan Denton. I'm sorry, Ryan.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit. But when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings.

Well, let's be honest. It leaves a lot to be desired. It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine. Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible.

Hi there. My name is Jordan, too. And I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House. Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources. Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor.

And for good reason, we are Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices. From simple code-activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems. In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network. Whether it's a Wi-Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners and their associates. For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model, to photorealistic image, to wax prototype model to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife Bronnie, his business partner and manager Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And I just received a very nice check from royaldiadem .com in the mail today. I received a check from royaldiadem .com because Jerry Johnson, who is a world-renowned Christian apologist and documentarian, heard about royaldiadem .com on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and he purchased his wife's birthday present from royaldiadem .com just a few weeks ago, a beautiful diamond ring that she was showing off on Facebook.

And because of this wonderful offer that royaldiadem .com has extended to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we are getting 100 of the profits from any sale to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener who mentions Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when making the purchase.

And that will be you too. I don't know when royaldiadem .com is going to stop this phenomenal offer, but I would urge you to purchase jewelry as soon as possible. If you intend to purchase jewelry for yourself or someone you love for Christmas, for Valentine's Day, whatever the occasion may be, or if you're not only getting something that they already have in stock in the realm of jewelry at royaldiadem .com, if you're having something custom designed as well, please go to royaldiadem .com soon because, as I said, we don't know when they're going to end this wonderful offer where we get 100 of the profits from any sale where the listener mentions Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when making the purchase.

So please do that soon, royaldiadem .com, and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We could really use the continued financial support of royaldiadem .com. And we are now back with my guest today, Ryan Hartzell, not Ryan Denton, as I said when I was entering into the commercial break.

We are discussing a very interesting theme today, tips on declaring the gospel to strangers and overcoming obstacles when opposed. And you were, right before the break, talking about how fearful you were initially approaching strangers with something as simple as handing them a tract.

Other than the old adage of practice makes perfect, was there anything else that helped you to overcome that initial fear that you had?

Yeah, absolutely. Of course, it's the grace of God in me. So it really came down to continuing to study the scriptures and see that, for example, in the book of Acts, this is what Christians do. You go out and you proclaim the gospel.

And I wasn't seeing it happen much around me. And I had to continually go back to what the Word of God says. I would draw some strength from watching other brothers online proclaiming the gospel. And it came down to the fact that I simply cared more about the approval of men than I did the approval of God.

My fear was stemming from a fear of man, and I wasn't fearing God enough. And I was concerned about what people would think of me, that they would think I was weird, some religious nut, or they would have some different view of me, especially folks that I grew up with, friends, family members.

But I really just had to put that aside and care more about where people are going to spend eternity than what people think about me and just continue to press on. And yes, the more I did it, the more I became comfortable with doing it, really just training myself to deal with the unconverted, even in just passing out gospel tracts like we talked about and going up to strangers, really looking out and having deep compassion on them.

Like Jesus in Matthew 9, he sees the vast multitudes, and he sees that they are lost, they're harassed, they're sheep without a shepherd, and constantly preaching that truth to myself.

So I'm imagining that one of the things that would embolden you, that would give you more confidence and perhaps even more zeal when proclaiming the gospel in public to strangers is your belief in the doctrines of sovereign grace because you are given that added encouragement that the word of God will not return void, that even if you, for a lengthy period of time, experienced what would seem to be outwardly a fruitless endeavor where nobody is responding in a favorable way, nobody is even demonstrating interest of any kind.

In fact, they might not only be indifferent, but they may be even hostile and angry and insulting and mocking. And I don't know if you've experienced this yet, but they might even be violent toward you.

But in the end of the day, or at the end of the day, eventually those seeds are going to be watered in God's sovereignty and providence, either by you, by returning to the same place to evangelize, or by other Christians.

And then he, God himself, will give the increase. That is not our job. Our job is not actually saving sinners. We have no ability or power or authority to do that. But the role that he has given us to declare the good news, it's not going to be a waste of time ever for a Christian when he's being obedient to God, is it?

Amen.

So we go out with complete confidence in God and in God's word. Like you said, the word of God never returns void. It goes forth and accomplishes all that God has purposed for it. And God has his elect out there.

We don't know who they are, so we preach the general gospel call to every single human being that we come in contact with. Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. So we want to be obedient to that and preach.

And it's only God who makes the inward call to his elect, those he's chosen from before the foundation of the world. Christ's sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.

Like the Apostle Paul said, I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. So you're right. We're just planting. We're watering seeds. Salvation is not of us.

Salvation is of the Lord. So it takes that burden off our back. And people will often say to me, Ryan, how many people did you save today? I'll say, what are you talking about? Me saving? I can't save anyone.

The Lord saves. The question is, Ryan, were you faithful? And what is faithfulness? That's simply proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, getting it into people's ears and leaving the results up to our sovereign God.

And the chips are going to fall where God wants them to fall.

And besides all of that, our ultimate goal, first and foremost, our primary goal is to glorify God. Even if in the lifetime of an evangelist who lived to a ripe old age, if he lived to 100 years old and not a single convert came to Christ to his knowledge through his evangelistic ministry, if he was being a faithful servant and ambassador for Christ, God was glorified nonetheless.

Is that not true?

Amen. Amen.

Just like the chief end of man is to glorify God. Well, the chief end of evangelism is to glorify God and God is glorified. Every time the gospel is preached. So even if no one is saved, God is glorified.

And in fact, I highly recommend a book that Ryan Denton wrote called even if none, because you hear often.

Yeah.

Oftentimes in American evangelicalism, they'll say only for the one. Well, even if no one saved your gospel preaching brings God glory. And that is preeminently the goal.

Yeah. It is a tragedy that Christian organizations, denominations, mission boards that are typically outside of the theological theology that you and I embrace, embrace a sovereign grace. It's a tragedy that you hear stories about.

And I have many friends in the Southern Baptist convention. And those friends that I have will be the first to admit what, that what I'm saying is true. There is a trend amongst mission boards in the Southern Baptist convention, which in our day and age are not typically theologically reformed.

At one time, the Southern Baptist convention in its early days in the 19th century was completely theologically reformed. And now it's a minority. If you are in that group in the Southern Baptist convention, but they will pull people off the mission field very prematurely just because they are totally fixated on numeric growth, numeric converts, et cetera.

Numeric results as far as people reciting a sinner's prayer and on and on. I could go. And God's timetable isn't necessarily ours, is it?

That's right. That's right. God is going to save his people when he is going to save his people. So pulling people off the mission field because they're not seeing conversions is really just nonsense and shows that there's a lack of understanding of sound doctrine.

And this is why you'll see people lead folks in a sinner's prayer to get this person converted. No, we don't preach a decision. We preach regeneration. You must be born again. And it's God who sovereignly regenerates a dead heart.

Amen. And let's see here. We have Lila in Aqua Bog, Long Island, New York. And Lila asks, have you ever heard of the ministry Jeremiah cry, which is a ministry focusing on the need for open air evangelism?

Oh, I've heard of them. I don't know if you have.

Yeah, I definitely have and have really benefited from their ministry. They have a lot of videos on YouTube. Jeff Rose is the one who started that ministry on the show.

Excellent. I've just recently been in contact with Jeff. He was recommending someone for me to interview. And he is now he's relocated. He lives in Fort Worth, Texas now and is pastor, senior pastor at one 16 Bible church and look forward to having him back on the program.

But I'm sure if Jeff is listening, he'll be thrilled to know that you are fully aware of his ministry and blessed by it.

Absolutely. I highly recommend their ministry to any man who wants to get involved in open air preaching. There are just so many resources there to help you get started. I mean, they're all about raising up more open air preachers.

And I say the more open air preaching the better. And I know some of you listening to this might be a little convicted like I was first when I heard of open air preaching. And it's probably because you need to be out there lifting up the name of Christ on a street corner, college campus, abortion mill, wherever souls gather.

Amen. And by the way, I have the website for you folks. If you want to find out more about that ministry, it's Jeremiah cry .com. Jeremiah cry .com. If you want to shoot an email to Jeff Rose, his email address is thunder it out at gmail .com.

I love that email address. Thunder it out at gmail .com. Let's see here. We have, uh, Bruce and Westchester, New York. And Bruce says in your experience of open air evangelism, are those who share your beliefs in reform theology, a tiny minority.

Yeah, I would say so. So most of the reformed open air preachers, I know at this point, I haven't met Jeff Rose. I'd love to meet him and preach with him soon down in the stockyards. But a lot of the guys on the East coast I've met and have preached with.

So sadly it is a smaller minority. That's what it seems like what you get a lot of are what I would call shock and awe preachers. And they're usually semi Pelagian and they have massive signs. It kind of looks like it's a army or something like that.

And they're usually yelling at people, lots of name calling, usually only preaching judgment, which of course we have to preach judgment and sin, but they leave out the gospel. The good news that Christ came into the world to save centers.

They're not very approachable. So when we're open air preaching, we're preaching the word. We got our Bibles in our hands and we invite people to come up and engage with us. And in fact, the people who engage with us often draw a bigger crowd then because people want to listen in, especially if the person is heckling, you hecklers actually bring you a crowd.

So a heckler can be a blessing because more people are then going to be listening to you preach the gospel and handle this person with grace as they may be spitting in your face.

Well,.

I will make it a point to try to follow you as often as I can to heckle you while you're preaching. Yes, I have heard the same thing that you are saying from the folks who are theologically reformed, sovereign grace, believing open air evangelists, and they'll even go further and say that many of them are not churchmen.

They're mavericks. They are under the authority of no one in a local church. They're not a member of a local church. They don't have elders.

Now,.

Of course I'm not broad brushing here. There are folks of all stripes who do open air evangelism. And even those that are non-Calvinist on occasion will be members of churches and even pastors of churches.

But I have heard that it's far too often the fact that these people who profess to be Christians make the jobs of biblically sound open air evangelists more difficult because they have the damage that they have to undo.

It's like a clean up time in aisle five because the, in fact, some of these folks have destroyed or brought great harm at least to a thriving open air ministry that James White was leading for many, many years over two decades,.

I believe.

And not only in the Phoenix, Arizona area, but in Utah where he would do a lot of open air evangelism and passing out of tracks and so far whenever there was a major Mormon event. And unfortunately some other groups or individuals began to hear about these events as well.

And they are the kind of open air evangelists that you were mentioning who do little more than scold people, mock people, make fun of people. And are not a member of any church. And some of these people in the area of the Mormon events, they were holding up Mormon underwear and they were holding up effigies of Joseph Smith and,.