WWUTT 2175 Q&A Marks of a Healthy Church, Masculine Legalism, When is the Rapture

What are the essential marks of a healthy church? How do we combat hyper-masculine legalism that is rising up in many Reformed churches? Does the rapture come at the beginning or the end of a seven-year period of tribulation?

The answers when we understand the text. This is when we understand the text.

A daily Bible study in the Word of God that we may comprehend with all the saints how wide, how high, and how deep is the love of Christ. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky, who is not in studio with me this week and won't be in studio with me next week either. Becky is presently in Kansas. Her grandmother passed away just this past Sunday and Becky was already on her way to Kansas.

She already had her tickets to get there, was hoping to see her grandmother one last time and wasn't able to get there in time. She wasn't gonna arrive until Tuesday and Ruth passed away on Sunday. She's there for the funeral, though, which will be tomorrow and she's also with our oldest daughter, Annie, who is 16.

Annie will go away to camp next week and Becky's gonna make her way down to Texas and spend some time with friends there and probably even do a little bit of work on our house that we have in Texas that hasn't yet sold.

I know some of you have been praying for us regarding that, so she'll probably do a little bit of work while she's there also. Your prayers for our family, for comfort during this time, and for Becky and Annie's safe travels would be greatly appreciated.

This is the Friday edition of the broadcast when we take questions from the listeners and you can submit those questions too when we understand the text at gmail .com. I've got a lot of questions this week.

Busy week. I think I fielded 20 questions just from our gmail inbox. I'm not gonna respond to all of them. I will respond to a few of them just in writing response. I think a couple of more kind of a personal nature would be better just to respond to them directly.

We also have a voicemail to respond to today and by the way you can also leave us voicemail. You can ask a question that way by going to www .utt .com and right there at the top of the page you'll see on the menu bar it says voicemail.

Click on that. It'll take you right to the link. You can record the voicemail either from your phone or from your computer. So I've got a voicemail to respond to and maybe about four or five other messages.

We'll see how far we get and whatever I don't get to we will just move on to next week. But don't forget once again the email address is when we understand the text at gmail .com or leave a voicemail at www .utt .com.

Psalm 18: God Upholds His People

Before getting to these questions let me pick up where we left off in our study of Psalm 18. So this is verses 30 to 36 out of the Legacy Standard Bible. As for God, His way is blameless. The word of Yahweh is tried.

He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him. For who is God but Yahweh and who is a rock except our God? The God who girds me with strength and makes my way blameless. He makes my feet like hinds feet and sets me upon my high places.

He trains my hands for battle so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze. You have also given me the shield of your salvation and your right hand upholds me and your gentleness makes me great. You enlarge my steps under me and my ankles have not given way.

Now what do you see as being thematic in this particular section what seems to be that recurring theme but being established my feet firm upon a rock my feet like hinds feet my ankles have not given way.

So God sets us in the place where we are and he holds us firm there and will not let the circumstances and trials that come our way or the enemies that might oppose us he will not let us be moved is another expression that you've probably heard from scripture.

Psalm 30 verse 6 now as for me I said in my prosperity I will never be shaken or in the King James I shall never be moved. God establishes our steps and he is the one who upholds us with his mighty hand as we've heard previously here in Psalm 18.

As for God his way is blameless if we walk the way of God we've talked about that on the podcast earlier this week as we've been in Mark chapter 7 if we walk the way that he directs us to go according to his word we are blameless because his way is the right way he is the one who has established truth in God's way we stand before him as righteous for he has given us the righteousness of Christ.

All those who believe in him remember as we contrasted God's way with the Pharisees way in Mark 7 earlier this week the traditions of man that we also see play out in our world today and even in some facets of Christianity or evangelicalism people who try to establish man's traditions over God's way that is not the way that we attain righteousness.

We cannot be righteous in that way. In fact we can't even keep man's way let alone God's way. But we try to go according to man's rules. We will not be blameless. We will stand in judgment before God.

But if we desire Christ and walk in his commands walking after the way of Christ that has been set before us first John 2 6 for example then our way will be blameless and we will be greatly rewarded. The word of Yahweh is tried.

He is a shield to all who take refuge in him. The word of Yahweh. So how do we know which way to go that is that is blameless. It is according to what God's word says. For who is God. But Yahweh. Verse 31.

And who is a rock. Except our God the God who girds me with strength and makes my way blameless. It's not that whatever we do is therefore blameless because I have God on my side. How is our way made blameless.

Because we would go the way of God the way that he directs us to go in those places where we have faltered and where we have sinned. God forgives and he atones for our sin so that there is no fault in our way.

Not that we've never done anything wrong but God justifies us by his grace that our way may be upheld as blameless. He makes my feet like Heinz feet and sets me upon high places. That's a parallelism.

So what is making my feet like Heinz feet. Well this is like a ram that would ascend a steep rock wall in the mountains. Have you ever seen deer or rams or or the the mountain goats up there. And just how nimble they are to climb.

What would seem like sheer rock faces. You would not even think that anybody could perceptively climb a rock such as that. And when you look up there you see a bighorn sheep standing there on what's practically a vertical rock wall.

Have you ever seen that before traveling through the Rockies. I've seen that we don't have many mountain goats out here in Arizona even though we do have plenty of plenty of mountains. But if you if you've ever seen anything like that they it's like God has specifically fashioned their feet to be able to ascend high places such as this.

And here the psalmist here David is saying that my feet have been made in such a way that I can ascend places that would otherwise be impossible with God. All things are possible. I am able to follow God's way with precision because he has given me the right kind of feet to be able to walk in the way that he has set for us to walk.

He trains my hands for battle verse 34. So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze strength that comes from the Lord. You're familiar with Philippians 4 13. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

It's not my strength. It is God's strength working through me. That's also what it means to be meek by the way it is God's strength working through us. That's a definition of meekness according to helps word studies.

I still remember that one verse 35. You have also given me the shield of your salvation. And your right hand upholds me. And your gentleness makes me great. So whatever the world has to throw at us will not remove us from the salvation of God.

For his salvation guards us and protects us. As Jesus said in John 10. No one will snatch them out of my hand. Nothing that the devil throws at us not the the world schemes not even our own flesh can remove us from the salvation that we are promised in Jesus Christ.

Your right hand upholds me. It's not because of anything that we do. It is because of the grace of God. As you as we talk about the doctrines of grace you're familiar with the doctrine of grace that is called the perseverance of the saints.

Well as I've heard R .C. Sproul say I don't really like that word perseverance because it makes it sound like it's dependent on us to persevere. When the reality of it is according to the doctrine itself that we are preserved we don't persevere.

So it's better said that it is the preservation of the saints because it is God who is the one who upholds us the doxology at the conclusion of the book of Jude to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to make you stand.

To make you stand in the presence of his glory blameless with great joy. That sounds like Psalm 18. There doesn't it. To the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. Be glory majesty might and authority before all time and now and forever.

Amen. Your gentleness makes me great. Not that that God gives us strength that we may impress people. Look at how strong and mighty I am. But it's the gentleness of God that makes us great. Verse 36. You enlarge my steps under me and my ankles have not given way.

Once again it is God who is the one who has established us and will uphold us and bring us into his kingdom. In the end amen. All right. Let's get to some of these questions today. This first one comes from Travis and he begins quoting a section from an article that was in I believe it was in table talk magazine.

I found it on Ligonier's website. It's entitled how do we define the church. And here is the paragraph as it was written from Eric Watkins. He says the following. The church is identified by three marks.

The faithful preaching of God's word the proper administration of the sacraments and church discipline. These are the essential qualities of a church. These are the things that matter most in a church not the style of music the length of the service or the number of people our age.

The marks and means of the church are essential to her identity and should be at the core of how we think about the church now. I agree with that with what Watkins wrote there. I would just add this qualifier.

So he says the church is identified by three marks. I would actually say it's two. So he says the faithful preaching of God's word the proper administration of the sacraments and church discipline. Church discipline should actually fall under the proper administration of the sacraments.

Because when it comes to baptism you baptize a person who has made a credible confession of faith even if even if we take the Presbyterian view or the Lutheran view baptizing infants. Okay still there you have a credible confession of faith because whose confession of faith would it would even the the pato baptist be relying upon it would be the confession of faith of the parents.

So either way whether you're taking the pato baptist view or the correct view the credo baptist view the baptist view you're still relying upon a person's credible confession of faith you are you are listening to their confession and you are as a church saying we acknowledge this person is a follower of Jesus Christ and then being baptized demonstrating in their confession that I am buried with Christ in my sins and I am risen again to walk in newness of life the other sacrament being the Lord's table.

And if you are disciplining the people in your church properly then you won't allow a person who is who is under some serious sin to come to the table lest they eat and drink judgment on themselves according to what Paul says in first 11.

So examine yourself. Paul says that you would not partake in this table in an unworthy manner. So the matters of church discipline fall under the sacraments. So therefore the two marks that you would be looking for in a faithful church would be the faithful preaching of God's word and the proper administration of the sacraments.

Church discipline. Fine it's just kind of sectioned out as uh as a subcategory of the proper administration of the sacraments. But all that to say I agree with what Watkins said there. So Travis presents his question.

He says this given the above truths about how God defines the corporate gathering of his people. If one of these essentials is not taking place then is it a biblical church. Let's just go with what it was that Watkins presented here.

So the faithful preaching of God's word the proper administration of the sacraments and church discipline. If one of those essential elements is not taking place is it a biblical church. Travis continues.

The reason I ask is because we live in an area that is overrun with Mennonite Amish and Brethren style churches as well as charismatic and NAR style churches by God's grace. There is one reformed church in our community which my wife and I have been faithful members of for years.

More recently though as God has been sanctifying me and convicting me of certain things I have not been able to reconcile our church's practice of covenant infant baptism with scripture. I have been praying about this issue for some time and have done extensive research into both the credo and pedo baptist position and my conviction of being a credo baptist has only grown stronger.

Am I sinning by staying in this church. Is it accurate to say that if a pastor does not properly administer the sacraments then it cannot be called a church. Is this an area of theology that falls under Christian liberty.

How am I to view my dear brothers and sisters in Christ who practice pedo baptism. And can I in good conscience be a member of a church if the only thing I disagree with is baptism. Well Travis this may not be the answer that you're looking for but my response to you would be I don't know and I don't know that I can make that decision for you.

This really is going to be a matter of your own conscience. And it sounds like that you have investigated the matter thoroughly and therefore you are going to have to come to a decision. Can you in good conscience continue in membership with this church given that you are now fully convinced of your credo baptist convictions.

Can you remain in good standing with that church and and participating in membership. Or do you now find a cause for division here that you can't in good conscience continue in faithful membership with that church and therefore have to find another congregation.

Like you said there's no other reform congregation around you. So where is it that you would go. And I don't know that I can answer that question for you either. So you have said there are many churches around the area that include Mennonite Amish and brethren style churches.

Now I'll tell you I was baptized in a Mennonite church but I was much more. I was much less mature then I was a teenager and I was going to the church that my parents went to. So of course being uh subject to my parents that was the church that I attended and it was fine.

The preaching there was biblical and that was the reason why we were there wherever we moved. When we went to a new community my dad would find the church with the faithful biblical teaching the gospel being proclaimed and sin being called out.

And if he could find that church then that was where my family attended. So it was a Mennonite church where I was where I was baptized. But yeah the charismatic and nar style churches well nar is heretical anyway.

And so those are definitely congregations that you should stay away from. You have found the one reformed church in your community but of course this being reformed on the side of pedo baptism where they baptize infants.

Now we have in my church in a reformed baptist church here in Casa Grande Arizona we do have members in our congregation who are confessionally pedo baptist. Well I say members we have. We have congregants let me just put it that way.

They're not members. If they're pedo baptists they don't join in membership and we have an understanding of one another with regard to those things. They can't vote but they want to go somewhere where they know that the preaching is solid and that the fellowship is reformed.

It is of a reformed conviction. So they come to our church for that purpose for that reason and we're happy to have them there. But they can't join in the membership and therefore make voting decisions and things like that for our congregation and give input with regard to some of those things.

Because we don't want the pedo baptist conviction to be directing the polity of our church if that makes sense even the the understanding or the application of of how we read the covenants i would still call them my brethren happy to have them with us in our congregation.

They just can't be members. And this has been the case everywhere that i've been a pastor at the church in texas the church in kansas we would have people that would come that were that were presbyterian in junction city kansas.

The only presbyterian church was pc usa. And they became of course very liberal and affirming of uh of lgbtq clergy. And so those presbyterians that would move to our community could not in good conscience attend that church.

But they loved being able to come to our church even though we had disagreements on sacraments of course with baptism and things of that nature. I did not withhold communion from them. I did not withhold from them the lord's table i said that is a matter of conscience between you and god and i've not seen anything in your life for any purpose that i would have to call you out or confront you.

Even though they were not formally members of our church i still considered them part of my flock in a certain sense. And so i would still look out for them. Even though you know the members of course would get the priority but they still were part of our congregation would fellowship with us in good conscience on both ends my conscience was clear in the matter and so was theirs.

And so that just to kind of give you my experience with regards to churches that i have pastored and where we've had people within our congregation that are pato baptist by conviction can't join the membership but are welcome to be there to hear the word preached and happy to have brethren that i can call brethren even though we might disagree on a secondary matter such as this and this is a secondary issue not a primary issue.

Those secondary issues are what separates us out in into different denominations and congregations. It's the reason why a presbyterian wants to have his own church and a baptist wants to have his own church.

Because of these matters we can agree soteriologically on everything else on matters of of salvation doctrine but with regard to administration of the sacraments that's where we disagree. And so that's why we have bodies that have been broken up into this way.

I wish it wasn't that way. I wish everybody would be credo baptist meaning that it is by a person's profession of faith that we would therefore administer baptism not uh not baptizing infants which is the pedo baptist view.

So again travis giving you my experience i hope would kind of help you make up your mind about that a little bit but i can't tell you one way or the other if you're sinning or not by remaining in the church where you are because that is between you and the lord.

If in your conscience you don't feel like that you can remain there then you're going to have to make a decision as to the next step that you're going to take and where you're going to end up going to church.

My advice my general counsel is don't divide if you don't have to and it doesn't sound like you have a whole lot of other options. If there was another credo baptist church in town then i would tell you we'll go to the reformed baptist church absolutely that's where your convictions are leading you.

Then that's the direction that you should go since you don't have that option. If you don't think that this needs to be a cause for division then don't make it one although i would be openly honest with your elders if this is a place where you do have membership there you've been a member of this church they would have you on the membership rolls.

In other words you need to be honest with your elders and tell them here's where my convictions have gone. And maybe they might help you make up your mind for you but you need to have that conversation with them.

I thank you for your email and i'm going to pray for you. Let me pray for you right now before we continue on to this next question here heavenly father i thank you for travis and i thank you for the way that your spirit has been working in his heart to investigate these matters to study the scriptures and desire to know more about proper worship in the house of god.

For as it said in first timothy 315 it is the church that is the pillar and the buttress of the truth. And so we have been given directions as to how we are to conduct ourselves in the household of god.

And i thank you that travis wants to do that more and more to the glory of your name. But as said in romans 14 not quarreling over opinions but welcoming one another. So give travis a heart that desires to be in unity with his pedo-baptist brethren and also a spirit of wisdom so that as he talks to his elders about these things he knows exactly the words that he needs to say.

And he's going to be receptive to instruction and direction as well. In all things may we give glory to god. And we thank you for your goodness to us in christ. It is because of what christ has done for us with his death on the cross his resurrection from the dead so that in jesus christ we have fellowship with god and the promise of eternal life.

It is because of that that we desire this fellowship within the body of christ and to do so to the glory of your name. It is in jesus name that we pray. Amen. Thank you again travis this next one's a voicemail.

This comes from james. Let me play it here. And then uh and.

Then respond. Here we go. Hi gaben becky. My name is james. Recently a new pastor has been coming across my feed and i'm getting some driscoll 2 .0 vibes from him. Funny thing is that he just did a podcast with driscoll and john lovell.

Right now i feel like i should keep his content at arm's distance but that gets me thinking and i'd like to get your thoughts on it. What do you think of this hyper masculinization that is happening in the non-reformed but calvinistic camp.

It seems like the main push is to be a strong man and then that will lead into biblical masculinity which seems kind of backwards to me. Is this an overcorrection of the emasculated evangelicalism of the late 90s and early 2000s.

Thank you very much for your ministry. I.

Really appreciate what you put out. Thank you so much for your question james. Well first of all our ideal model for biblical masculinity is going to be jesus christ of course. How do you be a man of god.

You look first at christ. Consider first john 2 beginning in verse 1. My little children i am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father jesus christ the righteous.

And he himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. The one who says i have come to know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar.

And the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word truly in him the love of god has been perfected by this. We know that we are in him. The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked and just as jesus submitted to the will of the father and kept all the commands of the father perfectly.

So we should desire to do the same. And this is biblical manhood it is being like christ. There is this hyper masculinity that is that is growing as james had talked about there it's almost kind of a resurgence of hypermasculinity because we see this come in waves.

It happened as james mentioned several years ago with mark driscoll. And driscoll's making a comeback a decade later here he is again and starting to make headlines with with all of his braggadocious stuff that he does going way out there trying to be extreme and the more extreme that he can be the more attention that he's going to get right now.

It seems that he's been on this spiritual warfare kick although it's very much on the charismatic side of spiritual warfare not the way that scripture gives it to us. But these things are are stirring interests especially among young men in our culture that are pushing back against the effeminization of men in our culture and the rise of the lgbtq movement.

The problem is a lot of these young men are swinging too far the other direction and it is becoming as james said a hyper masculine thing or a a legalistic thing would probably be the better way to say it.

And we've been talking about these legalistic things on the broadcast this week as we've been in mark 7 and we're going to continue with that more this week if you want to join me for our new testament study monday tuesday and wednesday as we'll continue that study in mark 7.

So how do we combat this. How do we push back against kind of the hyper masculinity thing that's happening. And as james mentioned a lot of calvinistic circles may not necessarily be reformed. They may not follow the confession or a reformed confession the way that they should.

It does seem to begin with with this masculine model. And then if we can attain to this level of masculinity then everything else as far as biblical manhood will begin to fall into place. But who should we be pursuing.

We should be looking at christ and pursuing christ. So to combat this tendency this really needs to begin in yourself first of all that you desire to be a man of god and you pursue those things first.

Corinthians 16 verse 13 is one of those verses that gets used by some of these hyper masculine guys. Be watchful stand firm in the faith. Act like men. Be strong but don't miss the next verse. Let all that you do be done in love so you can act like a macho guy.

If you're not doing it in love it means nothing that really goes back to the rebuke that paul gave to the church in corinth back in chapter 13. If i have all knowledge i can fathom all the world's wisdom.

Or if i can speak in the tongues of men and angels but i have not love then i'm nothing. I'm a noisy gong or a resounding symbol. And so it would be the same way with those who who aspire to this hyper masculinity.

And and if i can achieve this certain level of masculinity then all the biblical stuff will fall into place. Well once again it's pursuing masculinity without love. Then it means nothing. A lot of people a lot of guys can be masculine but not be godly.

And so it's godliness that we need to pursue. And in pursuing godliness then we will find ourselves to be men of god. I'm presently in second timothy with my church. That's the series that i'm preaching through at the moment.

And there the apostle paul tells timothy second timothy 222 flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness faith love and peace with those who call on the lord from a pure heart. Now there where paul says flee from youthful lusts.

That's exactly the thing that's going on here with this hyper masculinity group. Oftentimes that phrase youthful lust is interpreted as sexual immorality. But that's not the context there when paul is giving that instruction to timothy it's talking about a young man's natural tendency to want to be combative to want to fight.

It's that aggression that exists in some young men. And titus 2 uh confronts the same thing titus 2 6 urge the younger men to be sensible. As paul gives that instruction to titus it's the same kind of instruction that these men would be temperate in their thinking that they would calm down and that they would look to christ and desire godliness in the meekness of our savior not wanting to go after those passions of the flesh and want to be combative and fighting and and pugnacious which you see a lot even among these young calvinist men.

And by the way this is still this. This is the continuation of what was called the young restless and reform. That movement has not ended. Just the same as mark driscoll has not ended. He's just moved on to his next thing.

He uh was was called out and removed from mars hill church in october of 2014. So this was not even 10 years ago now and here he has this church in phoenix which is just like 30 to 40 minutes from where i live.

And he's finding a resurgence once again. And even these calvinist men are latching onto him online and i see a lot of them saying yeah we understand mark driscoll you know disqualified himself 10 years ago be careful.

But hey when he's right he's right. And they're still elevating the stuff that he teaches. So the fact that they're that he would teach things that they agree with supersedes the fact that mark driscoll's completely unqualified disqualified he can't ever be a preacher again.

And no one should ever trust him because the guy lies through his teeth. You don't know that he actually believes what it is that he is saying he could just be putting on a con. We don't know because that's driscoll's thing.

But this is still the continuation of that young restless and reform movement. And it really gives weight to an article that john macarthur wrote in response to that movement when instead of young restless and reformed he said grow up calm down but keep reforming.

And that's a good pattern for us to follow the instructions that paul gives to timothy first timothy and second timothy good books to go to read those things and see how paul instructs a young man there and may we model ourselves after those things.

We desire to be like christ. But we can even look to the apostles and others in the old and new testament to see how we should be. For as paul said in first corinthians 11 1 imitate me as i am of christ.

So i guess the the first instruction that i gave to you there james would be to work on those things within yourself. Keep those teachers at fault at arm's length just like you had mentioned be careful.

It's okay to listen to them because you get familiar with some of the stuff that's out there but don't let that be your influence. And then consider the body of men that you are around because again that instruction that paul gave timothy in second timothy 222 was to pursue righteousness faith love and peace along with those who call on the lord from a pure heart.

And as we do this with other men who desire to be christ-like then they can help to keep us in check. Now bad company corrupts good character as said in first corinthians 15 so you can surround yourself with a group of guys that leads to you know foolishness.

Or you can surround yourself to a group of men that are going to lead to godliness. So be careful about the company that you keep. It was uh i just finished up judges on the hear the word of the lord podcast.

And when jeff was uh it was was exiled by his brothers because he was born of a different woman and so his brothers kicked him out of the family. It says that jeff found a group of foolish men and they were the ones therefore that that were the influence on jeff.

Then we see how that led to some foolish behavior a little bit later on down the line. So you surround yourself with fools. That's exactly how you're going to turn out. But if you surround yourself with godly men who are meek humble desiring to grow in christ-likeness then that's going to have an effect on you as well.