Matt Slick vs Dr. Sam Waldron: Does the Bible teach that the charismatic gifts are for today?

Debate Introduction and Opening Prayer

And finally, I'll just say this debate is part of an ongoing lecture and debate series we have. We call it First Word. So we've had three or four debates already and we look to keep it going. So if you're interested in this sort of thing, you did not get an email about it already, and you want to hear about future debates, write your email on that question card and send that in and I'll know it's your email so you'll be notified of future events.

Anything I'm forgetting other than I'm going to say a prayer and our first speaker will come up. Since it's a Christian debate, I can pray without worrying about offending anybody. Well, why don't we gather in prayer?

Heavenly Father, we give you thanks for gathering us tonight. We give you thanks for the church that you have instituted. We give you thanks for sending your Holy Spirit at Pentecost. And we give you thanks that your spirit has been given over to each and every one of those you call your sons and daughters.

We pray that your Holy Spirit would be with us here tonight as we look at the scriptures and we discern the truth as we have been called to do. Give us your peace, Lord, that passes all understanding in all that we do.

Bless this time tonight that we might always draw closer to the truth that you have revealed. In the name of your Son, Jesus Christ, we pray. Amen. Well, without further ado, let us begin with our first speech of the night by Mr. Matt Slick.

Matt Slick: The Charismatic Gifts Are Still for Today

So whenever I preach and I teach, I always ask people how they're doing. So how are you doing? Let's try it again. How are you doing? That's much better. All right. First of all, I want to thank you all for coming.

I really appreciate that you are here. And Dr. Waldron and I, we had dinner tonight. We disagree on some things and agree on a lot more. And so he's a good guy. And we'll be debating the issue of whether or not the continuation of the charismatic gifts is for today or not.

And I do take the affirmative position and I hope to demonstrate that from scripture. Let's just see if I can do that tonight. So my tendency is to speak quickly. It's how I've always spoken. So I'm going to slow it down quite a bit.

If I'm getting to the point where you can't really understand me, just do this and I'll slow down again because that's just, it'll help me out. All right. So I affirm that all of the charismatic gifts are experienced today in the body of Christ.

However, I deny that Christians have the same authority and ability as the apostles of Christ did. And I also deny that such charismatic gifts affect the closing of the canon. Now, a charismatic gift is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses four and seven, quote, now there are a variety of gifts, but the same spirit and verse seven, but to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good, close quote.

The English word here for gifts is from the Greek word charisma. And that's where we get our term charismatic, charismatic gifts. Paul then lists these charismatic gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, the next few verses and verses 12, excuse me, verses eight through 10 as the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, various kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues.

Now notice that these are charismatic gifts, right? In addition, when we turn to Romans chapter 12, verse six, we find more information on the charismatic gifts. Paul says, quote, we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.

That's a close quote here. The word gifts is again from the Greek word charisma. Paul then lists those charisma in verses six through eight as prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, showing mercy and cheerfulness.

These are charisma. So we could say that the list of charismatic gifts provided by Paul, the apostle includes word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, various kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, showing mercy and cheerfulness.

Now that's a total of 16 charismatic gifts listed in these two chapters. But wait, there's more. If you turn to Romans 6, 23, something very interesting is written there. We should know this verse as Christians, for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

The word gift there again is charisma. Eternal life is categorized as a charismatic gift. The word gift here is the same word used in the other areas that I've mentioned already in first Corinthians 12 and Romans 12.

So quite simply, logically, if the charismatic gifts are not in operation today, then all of the charismatic gifts have ceased. This would mean that the charismatic gift of faith, exhortation, giving, leading, showing mercy, cheerfulness and eternal life are also not in operation today.

But that of course is not true. Therefore I must conclude that according to the biblical declaration of what the charismatic gifts are, they have not ceased. But some might say that there are differences among the charismatic gifts given to the church and that only the miraculous ones have ceased.

How can such a differentiation be justified? Isn't eternal life a miraculous gift from God? Yes, it is. Isn't our believing in him also a miraculous gift? It would seem so, especially when we consider that Philippians 1, 29 says that God grants that we believe.

And Jesus said in John 6, 28, 29, that our believing is the work of God. Both of these are miraculous because they are the work of God that results in our salvation. Now Ephesians 2, 8 says, for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourself.

It is the gift of God. Now the word gift there in Greek is doron, just means a standard gift, not listed as a charisma. There are different words in Greek for gift. We'll go over that a little bit. So I cannot pick and choose which of the charismatic gifts I affirm are for today, such as faith and eternal life, and say that other charismatic gifts have ceased, such as prophecy and tongues.

Our debate is not about a subset of charismatic gifts. It is instead charismatic gifts. Logically, if any of the charismatic gifts are in the church today, then the charismatic gifts have not ceased. They either ceased or they do not cease.

Let me now turn to where Paul writes to the Corinthian church and says, quote, to all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, close quote. He's addressing the universal church. That means he's addressing us.

He then says in a few verses later in 1 Corinthians 1, 7, quote, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, close quote. The word gift in verse 7 is the Greek word charismati, which is from the word charisma.

In Greek, words change form like actor, actors, actress, actress. So it's charisma. It's the same word used earlier when listing the charismatic gifts of word of wisdom, faith, healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and eternal life.

So we, the church, are not to lack any charismatic gift while we wait for Jesus to come back. This means the charismatic gifts have not ceased. In addition, when we turn to Acts 2, 17, we find Peter quoting Joel chapter 2.

He says this, quote, and it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour forth my spirit on all mankind and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions. Peter then goes on to say in Acts 2, 33, therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

And what they were seeing and hearing was the manifestation of speaking in tongues. Then the same chapter, verses 38 and 39, Peter said to them, repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

And you will receive the gift, dorea, of the Holy Spirit for the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord God will call to himself. The promise reveals is the revelation of the Holy Spirit to us in the church.

So the gift is a Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2, who is for all who are far off, as many as the Lord God will call to himself. So I am forced to summarize that since we're in the last days, they didn't end with the apostles.

There will be prophecy. We, the church, are not to lack any charismatic gift while we wait for Jesus' return. And that includes eternal life, faith, helps, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and are all categorized as charismatic gifts.

Therefore, the charismatic gifts have not ceased. Now, Dr. Waldron, I read his book. It's over there. It's a nice book. His book, To Be Continued. I read his book, and I went through it extensively. And he has what's called the Cascade Argument.

So in his discussion on this, or his debate with Dr. Michael Brown on November 7, 2013, at 21 minutes and 14 seconds, he said, quote, my argument against the continuation of the miraculous gifts is called the Cascade Argument.

It goes like this. There are no apostles of Christ on earth today. Because there are no apostles of Christ, we may cogently argue that there are no prophets on the earth today. Because there are no prophets, there are no tongues speakers.

And because there are no tongues speakers, prophets, or apostles of Christ, there are no miracle workers, close quote. Dr. Waldron starts with the issue of the apostles and their obvious cessation and says that because the apostles are not with us, then there are no more prophets, tongues speakers, miracle workers, and concludes that the charismatic gifts have ceased.

Now on page 78 of his book, To Be Continued, he says this, quote, if biblical prophecy exists today and can be verified as such, it is canonical. If it is canonical, then the canon is not closed, but open.

Now I understand his point, but I believe it's quite wrong. In Acts 19, verses 6 through 7, there are 12 men who are speaking in tongues and prophesying, but there is no record at all that what they said was canonized.

Five minutes, wow. I'm reading slowly, remember? And when Paul had laid his hand upon them, this is what it says, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about 12 men.

In 1 Corinthians 14, 22 and 24, Paul says, so then tongues are a sign not to those who believe, but to unbelievers, but prophecy is a sign not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. But if all prophesy and an unbeliever or ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all.

He's called to account by all. In these verses, tongues and prophecy were present and there is no indication that such revelations were canonized or needed to be canonized. In addition, in Revelation 11, 3, and this is important, and I will grant authority, this is God speaking, to my witnesses, my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are from God and they will be prophesying. This proves that Dr. Waldron's position that prophecy has ceased is wrong. And this seriously undermines his assertion that if biblical prophecy exists today, then it is canonical.

Furthermore, on page 47 of his book, he says, quote, I was also making the point that the question before us was not whether there is prophetic revelation in the church today. We agree most heartily with every charismatic and continuationist that there is, close quote.

How is it that Dr. Waldron affirms that prophetic revelation exists in the church today and seems to also say there is no prophetic revelation in the church today, lest it be canonized? I think that's a contradiction.

Furthermore, in his debate with Dr. Brown, when he was explaining his own position, he said at 21 minutes and 50 seconds, apostles of Christ were a gift to the church. He then referenced Ephesians 4, 8 through 11.

Now in addition, on page 15 of his book, he says this, quote, the New Testament makes clear that apostles of Christ are not given to the church today. They lived only in the first century. We know for sure, therefore, that one gift and the greatest gift has ceased to be given.

On book, excuse me, on his book, page 42, he says, quote, if according to the clearest teaching of the New Testament, the greatest gift is not in the church today, then surely it is possible that other gifts may also have ceased.

Let me restate my point. Since we know in the clearest biblical evidence that at least one miraculous gift has ceased, this knowledge provides the crucial premise for the biblical argument for the cessation of the miraculous gifts, close quote.

Now, Dr. Waldron has stated that if the greatest gift of the church, the apostles, is not in the church today, then other gifts may have ceased. Notice he says may. He's not asserting a logical necessity, but only a possibility.

This weakens his argument even more. But I disagree that the greatest gift is the apostles. I think the greatest gift is the blood of Christ shed on the cross. If we were to look only after that, we would say then that the Holy Spirit is a greater gift than the apostles because the Holy Spirit is God and the apostles are not.

Consider Acts 10, 45 through 46. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God, close quote.

In addition, we could use his reasoning against him. When Dr. Waldron says that if the greatest gift to the church is not with us, and this implies the charismatic gifts have ceased, then we could say that on the other hand, if the greatest gift is still with the church today, then the charismatic gifts have not ceased.

If the Holy Spirit is a greater gift to the church than the apostles, and he's also present with us, then the charismatic gifts are still with us, and his argument fails. After all, the charismatic gifts depend on the presence of the Holy Spirit, not the presence of the apostles.

So let me conclude by saying that first, the biblical classification of the charismatic gifts includes such things as speaking in tongues, word of wisdom, prophecy, faith, and eternal life. Since faith and eternal life are still in effect today, then by logical necessity, all of the charismatic gifts have not ceased.

Two, our debate is not about specific charismatic gifts, such as the prophetic ones, but charismatic gifts as a whole. After all, our debate is titled, does the Bible teach that the charismatic gifts are for today?

Third, in 1 Corinthians 1 .7, Paul tells the church universal that it will not lack any charismatic gift while waiting for the return of Christ. Therefore, we can conclude that we're not lacking any charismatic gift today.

Fourth, in Acts 2 .17, it says that prophecy will occur in the last days. It doesn't say it will stop within the last days. The last days did not end with the apostles, so we should expect prophecy in the church in these last days, even as Dr. Waldron has affirmed occurs on page 47 of his book when he said, quote, that prophetic revelation occurs in the church today, close quote.

Fifth, by not distinguishing between the different kinds of gifts that are articulated in the Greek, such as doma, use of the gift of the apostles, and charisma, use of the charismatic gifts, Dr. Waldron's analysis and cascade argument is incomplete and therefore is undermined.

Sixth, Dr. Waldron in numerous places in his book says that the greatest gift is the apostolate, which I don't believe is the case. The Holy Spirit is a greater gift than the apostles. So I conclude that the charismatic gifts are still in the church today, and that Dr. Waldron's cascade argument, no offense meant, has too many problems in it to be convincing.

Thanks.

Sam Waldron: The Apostolate Has Ceased and the Cascade Argument

It is customary for speakers to begin by thanking the organizers of the event they're speaking at for inviting them to speak and for organizing the event. I am thankful for the work of Evan and others here at First Evangelical Lutheran Church and the love of the truth, which this evening exhibits.

But I do choke a little on thanking them for the opportunity to debate. I am kind of the anti-debater. I take the opportunity to speak at debates only when asked and only because it gives me the opportunity to teach and expound what I believe to be the truth of God's word.

What I do not like about debates is the tendency and even the motivation they create in the debaters to say anything to win, whether they know it to be true or not. I hope never to be guilty of that kind of violation of the commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness.

And I take this evening to be about truth, not winning, and will try to say nothing that I do not verily believe to be the truth of God's word. My exposition of the truth about this question must be brief this evening.

And so I encourage you, therefore, to obtain my book entitled To Be Continued for a fuller and more careful statement of what I will say tonight. I'm thankful to say that in looking at Matt Slick's helpful website, I noticed a moderate and wise tone on this issue, which leads me to hope that we can have a fruitful discussion, one that will serve the interest of truth.

All that being said, let me summarize in my remaining time my response to the question of the hour. That question is, and here I have to just, well, I have to say something a little bit different than it has been said.

That question is, have the gifts of prophecy and tongues and healing ceased? And I thought I was responding in the affirmative to that because I do affirmatively believe the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and healing have ceased.

But I do not believe it is best to begin by directly addressing the question related to prophecy and tongues. As with so many questions, the answer to this question is profoundly influenced, if not wholly decided, by the answer to more foundational questions.

I think that is true in this case. Charismatics and continuationists often seem to operate with the assumption and presumption that none of the gifts of the spirit have ceased, and that to say so is virtually to depart from New Testament Christianity.

Their assumption seems to be that we must attempt to recreate the situation of the first Christian churches in the first century of the Christian era. But this assumption is simply wrong. It is wrong because at least one gift, and the greatest gift of all given to the church, and by that I'm referring, by the way, to 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, and not to the, of course, greater gifts of God like the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But the greatest gift mentioned in both 1 Corinthians 12, 28 to 31, and Ephesians 4, 8 to 13, the New Testament identifies as the apostles of Christ. The greatest gift in Ephesians 4, what begins the list, the greatest gift in 1 Corinthians 12, what begins the list there in 28, is the gift of apostles of Christ.

The New Testament identifies apostles of Christ as a gift of Christ to the church. He ascended on high, he gave gifts to men. And this means that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and of Christ to the church has ceased unless one maintains that there are living apostles of Christ in the church today.

But the gift of apostles of Christ no longer exists in the church today, and this is plain from the New Testament. I think Matt Slick agrees with me on that. Before I present that evidence, an important distinction must be made.

When the question is asked, are there apostles in the world today? The first question which must be asked in response is, apostles of whom? The word apostle in the Bible means sent one, and refers to an authorized representative who is empowered to speak for the one who sent him.

When I assert that there are no apostles in the church today, I mean to say that there are no living apostles of Christ. The New Testament uses the term apostle to refer to apostles of churches, 2 Corinthians 8 .23 and Philippians 2 .25.

I believe there are still apostles of the churches in the world today. We call them missionaries and associational representatives, but my claim is that there are no apostles of Christ. Apostles of Christ possessed and had to possess three crucial distinguishing marks.

First, they had to be directly appointed to Christ, by Christ. In Acts 1 .24, Peter makes this clear. In Acts 1 .2, Luke speaks of the apostles which Christ had chosen. Yes, there was an election of apostles of Christ, but in that election, only one person could vote, Jesus Christ himself.

Second, apostles of Christ must be physical eyewitnesses of the resurrected Lord Jesus. First Corinthians 9 .1, Acts 1 .22, Acts 10 .39. First Corinthians 9 .1 summarizes the perspective when Paul says, am I not an apostle?

Have not I seen Jesus Christ, our Lord? And third, apostles are able to confirm their apostolate by doing miracles. Second Corinthians 12 .12, the signs of a true apostle were done among you with all perseverance.

So as men possessing these crucial distinguishing marks, these men spoke authoritatively for Jesus Christ. The Jews had a saying, the apostle of a man is as the man himself. And the apostles of Jesus Christ were as the man himself.

What they said, he said. To receive him, you had to receive them. Now four arguments may be gleaned from the New Testament for the cessation of living apostles of Christ in the world today. And those arguments are these, and this is why I think my opponent admits the cessation of apostles, but not its implications.

Ephesians 2 .20, which says the church has been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, along with Matthew 16 .18 and Revelation 21 .14, speak of apostles as the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ.

This illustration is meant historically and chronologically and means that apostles of Christ were confined to the foundational period of church history. First Corinthians 15 .8 is speaking of the apostles and where Paul says that in speaking of the apostles, and let me read the passage.

First Corinthians 15 .8, verse 7 begins, then he appeared to James, and then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me also, for I am the least of the apostles. To be an apostle of Christ, you had to see the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul here says that he is the last apostle of Christ, and he had to be because he was the last one to whom Jesus appeared in his resurrected glory. Galatians 2 .7 -9 teaches us that the original 12 apostles gave their imprimatur to the apostolate of Paul.

No erstwhile apostle in the world today can claim that. And then Ephesians 2 .20 affirms, to go back to that passage, that the church is built foundationally on the apostles and prophets of Christ. This teaches that the form of the New Testament canon is apostles and prophets.

If there are apostles today, the canon would be open as those apostles continue to speak authoritatively for Christ. But since all but the most extreme charismatics acknowledge that the canon is closed, this assumes the cessation of the apostolate.

Now after looking at Matt's website, I have the impression that he agrees with me that there are no living apostles of Christ in the world today. He might wonder then, and you might wonder as well, how what I am saying is relevant to the question this evening.

I hope perhaps that some of the things he says already begin to indicate why it's so relevant. And I want to respond to this question in two ways. First, as I said earlier, the fact that there are no living apostles of Christ in the world today changes and must change the assumption with which the question being discussed this evening is addressed.

The cessation of the apostolate means that one gift, and that the first and greatest gift given to the church, of course in the context of Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12, the first and greatest gift given to the church no longer exists in the world today, has ceased to be given to the church.

Now if such a gift can cease, then it is not weird or unreasonable to argue that other gifts may cease. It's the beginning point, not the end point, but the beginning point of my argument. Furthermore, the New Testament teaches that the other miraculous gifts like prophecy, tongues, and healings were given through the ministry of the apostles of Christ.

You have that remarkable historical narrative in Acts 8 which connects the giving of the sign gifts to the presence of apostles in Samaria. Now this raises the possibility that with the cessation of the apostolate, these other gifts would also die out.

The fact of the cessation of the apostolate therefore changes everything about the way the question disputed tonight must be approached. Second, the cessation of the apostolate is then the first and foundational presupposition of what I call the cascade argument against continuationism.

Matt has made the issue of the continuation of the charismatic gifts an all-or-nothing issue, but it's not an all-or-nothing issue, and the cessation of the apostolate shows that it's not an all-or-nothing issue.

One gift has ceased of the charismatic gifts given to the church. Christ gave gifts to the church, and the first of those gifts, according to Ephesians 4, was the gift of the apostles, and therefore one of the gifts has ceased, and it's not an all-or-nothing issue.

And it's the beginning of the cascade argument. The cascade argument is that there are no apostles of Christ on earth today, and this allows us to argue that there are no prophets on earth today, and because there are no prophets this allows us to argue that there are no tongue speakers, and because no tongue speakers that there are no miracle workers.

Now, before I proceed to explain in a little more detail the cascade argument, let me make clear another assumption I bring to this argument and to this debate. My argument is for the cessation of apostles, prophets, tongue speakers, and miracle workers.

I am not arguing that there are no miracles in the world today, or that God has ceased to act supernaturally on planet earth. God never locked himself out of his creation, and it is not necessary to cessationism, especially the form of cessationism I defend, to hold such an idea.

I am arguing for the cessation of the miraculous gifts of prophets and tongue speakers and miracle workers. I am not arguing for the cessation of miracles. I am not arguing, for instance, for the cessation of miraculous healing, but for the cessation of miraculous healers.

But why do I believe in the cessation of prophets in the world today? Well, for three very simple reasons. First, the New Testament prophets were foundational. We noted that in Ephesians 2 .20 apostles were the foundation of Christ's church, but prophets are also foundational there.

We are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. If we may argue that the apostolate is historically past, from their being foundational in Ephesians 2 .20, then we must also argue that prophets are.

The New Testament prophets were infallible. As defined by the Bible, the prophetic office confirmed divine and infallible authority on the true prophet. Prophecy is defined in Deuteronomy 18 .15 and following, and that definition of prophecy has never been altered, and there is no other definition of prophecy in the Bible.

And that definition in Deuteronomy 18 defines prophets as the very mouth of God speaking the very word of God. And since most prophecy, as confessed by continuations today, does not even claim to meet such standards, it cannot claim to be biblical prophecy.

Finally, the New Testament prophets were canonical. The form of the Old Testament canon was Moses and the prophets. Seventeen times, the New Testament describes the Old Testament as either Moses or the law and the prophets.

Indeed, in some cases, the entire Old Testament is referred to as the prophetic word. While not all prophecy in the Old Testament found its way into the canon, all such prophecy was in principle canonical and carried canonical authority with the people of God.

Similarly, not all apostolic writings were preserved by the Holy Spirit to be put into the New Testament as we know it. Yet all apostolic writings, as the words of Christ-inspired representatives, were in principle canonical.

If they had been preserved, of necessity, they would have been part of our New Testament. And here I must draw to a close. What is the point? It is simply that if biblical prophecy exists today and can be verified as such, it is canonical.

It is simply that if biblical prophecy exists today, then the canon is not closed but open. The fact is, however, every Christian knows and the contents of the New Testament plainly testify that the canon of the New Testament is closed and has been closed for almost 2 ,000 years.

The choice for continuation is to start. They may maintain their claims to continuing prophecy in the church, or they may have a closed canon. They may have continuing prophecy, or they may have the witness of the New Testament that the principle of canonical authority departed from the church nearly 2 ,000 years ago.

Thank you very much.

Matt Slick: Charismata, Doma, and the Continuation of the Gifts

Now before I get started, I just want to say that I actually like Sam. And nothing personal, I'm just going to tack the arguments, we're going to get going, alright? We're going to shake hands afterwards, we love each other, okay?

And I think he's bigger than me, so I'm not going to challenge him to a wrestling match. So alright. Now he, I think, makes a mistake. In that, he says, have the gifts of prophecy, miracle workers, the prophetic stuff stopped.

But that's not what the debate is titled. The debate is titled, does the Bible teach the charismatic gifts are for today? That's what we're debating. I debate a lot of atheists, I debate a lot of people on a lot of different issues.

And let me tell you, the title of the argument is very precise, and it's always important to pay attention to the debate title. We're not debating whether or not the apostles are for today. They're not, okay?

We don't have any disagreement on that whatsoever. The issue is, are the charismatic gifts for today? Now as I've gone through the scriptures, and I let the scriptures teach us, the scriptures tell us that the charisma, our word of wisdom, knowledge, prophecy, tongues, faith, healing, cheerfulness, eternal life, have those gifts ceased?

If you're going to say, well, part of these have ceased, but part of these have not, then the charismatic gifts have not ceased. The issue is not, have part of the, or some of the charismatic gifts ceased?

It says, have they ceased? They have not. Now, what I think is really important, and I don't know how many of you have ever studied Greek. I know he has, I have. Let me tell you, Greek is very specific.

There are different words in Greek for the word gift, at least four different words. The word doma is used to describe the gift of the apostles. Charisma is used to describe the charismatic gifts. To say that the doma gifts, that the apostles, the doma, have ceased, is like saying, because there are no red presents under the Christmas tree, there are no green presents also.

Because there are no doma, there's no charisma. But that's not how it's spoken of in the original language. That's not the argument that you can hold from the scriptures. Now, again, we're not arguing whether or not the apostles are for today.

That's not a problem. But the Bible says, in 1 Corinthians 1, 7, to the church, and therefore to us, that you are not to lack any charisma while you're waiting for the apocalypsis of Jesus. You are not to lack any charismatic gift.

Well, I'm arguing that this is what it says. That's what it means. We're not to lack any charismatic gift. That's what I argue. As a church, we're not supposed to lack it. Why? Because Paul says so. If the apostles are the tying, the place where we tie the argument to, if they've stopped and the charismatic gifts have ceased, then how is 1 Corinthians 1, 7 still true for us?

And we haven't even gotten into 1 Corinthians 13, 8 through 13, which I'd love to get into. We just don't have the time here. But it's another place where Paul the apostle ties the perfect as being, not the closing of the canon, it doesn't work, folks, but as the return of Christ, which he admits in his book.

And there's also Revelation 11, 3. You see, Revelation 11, 3 says that the two prophets, excuse me, yeah, the two prophets, the two witnesses are going to be prophesying for over 1 ,200 days. That is a charismatic action, a charismatic gift.

They're going to be here when the church is here. They're going to be here for what's going to be happening. They're going to be prophesying. If the argument is that prophecy that we know is from God challenges the closing of the canon, then by his logic, the canon can't be closed because it means that the two prophets are going to be speaking inspired words from God.

They're going to be killed. They're going to be dead, and they're going to rise from the dead. They're two men that this is going to happen to, and they're going to be prophesying. If the canon is closed, and I agree that it's closed, but the logic doesn't work.