September 21, 2016 Show with Tim Bayly on “The Trinity Controversy & Economic Subordinationism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of September 2016 it is probably no mystery that I happen to be a theologically reformed

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Christian a Calvinist as we have been nicknamed or a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace

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Also known as the doctrines of free grace and there are other terms as well Many of my guests perhaps even most

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Share those views and there's something unique about those that are theologically reformed

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The good thing about us is that we have a tendency To be very meticulous about doctrine

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We want to make sure that the Word of God is accurately and properly handled that the teachings found within the pages of scriptures are exegeted accurately and in context and We are very quick to rightly expose error when we see it

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But the downside of our meticulous nature when it comes to doctrine and theology, it seems is that we sometimes

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Wind up shooting our own brethren in the back over areas that are not as crucial as we may have blown them up to be or they may be areas of the

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Word of God that Involve more mystery than we may think there may be things that are not completely spelled out in the clarity that we may

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Have wrongly concluded and that's one of the things that we are going to talk about today with our guest

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Tim Bailey He was on yesterday as many of you remember if you heard the program, especially he spoke about a book that he wrote daddy tried overcoming the failures of fatherhood and We really enjoyed that time together today.

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He wanted to talk about a controversy that's swirling around Evangelical Christianity and in particular amongst theologically reformed

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Christians and it involves a very important and crucial matter of theology the Trinity, but we're going to be finding out how

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Serious and how monumental this specific area of the Trinity is and whether our brethren are

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Shooting at each other and perhaps to harsher manner And where when the area doesn't really call for it at least according to our guests

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I believe and we're gonna hear more about that today on iron sharpens iron and it's my honor and privilege to welcome You back to iron sharpens iron pastor of clear note church in Bloomington, Indiana, Tim Bailey And again

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For those of our listeners who did not hear yesterday's program if you could just give us a brief description of clear note church

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Who in our church is Westminster standards? pretty typical

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Presbyterian Church elder rule male deacons The one weird thing about us is that we do have officers

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Who are both pedo Baptists and creator who both believes and reject infant baptism?

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and that is because of the Particularities of how this church had its origin.

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We were bound together in a previous church That had come out of Presbyterianism and I was called to be the pastor and so the one thing that is keeps us from being a part of a normal Presbyterian denomination is that we

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We have in our bylaws that every officer has freedom of conscience in the time and mode of baptism

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Yeah, well the only other group that I know that has that that's actually a denomination is the

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Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster And the Free Presbyterian Church of North America. They have both Baptistic pastors and pedo

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Baptist pastors and if you want to have your infants baptized or your young Children that are incapable of expressing belief if you want them baptized they will call a

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Pastor in their denomination who believes and practices that and if you don't you are not required to have your infants or children baptized, so and They will baptize you by immersion as a believer by a baptistic

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Pastor so it's it is a unusual precedent, but it does exist and Today you wanted to speak on the issue that has been swirling around as of late amongst especially reformed

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Christians in regard to the Trinity and I want to put all of our listeners at ease if you happen to be on the other side of the of the issue at hand

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I Do plan as I as I typically do I do plan to have the other side of the issue?

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represented on the program eventually and I always when there is a controversial issue dividing theologically reformed

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Christians I usually try my best to have both sides represented in fact. I've even had a week -long dedication actually more than a week long dedication to eschatology where I had different representatives of each of the major views on For their own day to defend and Define and explain their specific end times view and I plan on doing that again by the way

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But I just wanted to let you know that I am NOT just airing one Side of the issue on the

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Trinity obviously the Trinity is a vital core belief in the

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Christian faith you cannot be a True Christian without believing in the Trinity if you deny the

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Trinity you're obviously not a saved individual, but there are Nuances within that belief that Christians divide over and we're gonna hear more about that first of all

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Tim when did you first hear and how did you first hear that there was a

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Controversy to begin with and if you want to also I understand that you wanted to Basically lay down the the framework from which you are coming from in regard to Brother brethren knowing when and where and why and how to divide over issues

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Yeah, if I can talk a little bit about the nature of doctrinal conflict Conflict in the church.

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Yes Years ago back in 92. I began I'm Ken Taylor who did the living

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Bible in the new living translation I'm a son -in -law and We're very close family and I was in the kitchen one day and I saw the first galley proofs of the new living

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Translation on the book of Romans and I opened it up and I found that the Greek word Adelphi was translated brothers

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And or no Christian siblings Well, the word Adelphi in Greek is brothers, you know linguists and other translators might have a fit with me putting it that Faultly, but it's just plain fact

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I took my classics at UW Madison under a Bryn Mawr professor And it's a faithful saying that Adelphi means brothers

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And so I was very concerned and I said that to my father and brother and a lot that time

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I said look if you take the word Adelphi and you stop translating it brothers and you begin to translate it

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Christians Actually, they didn't even say siblings now that I remember it was Christian friends

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I said you do two things wrong Number one you give up the male -inclusive and that has a very very important purpose in God's inspired word

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It's constantly reinforcing the federal headship of Adam over all the race

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Because of Adam's sin, not Eve's sin, all of us die and that God appoints fathers, husbands

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He appoints Adam over the race and he is our representative

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But I said the second thing is I'm ministering in a university community where many many young men and women that come into the church have no experience of a family and so when they read

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Christian friend what they think is that it's up to their taste and That it only needs to last as long as they prefer.

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In other words a friend is somebody you can take on and off But I said when it becomes the language of family, it's permanent

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Absolutely permanent In other words when God adopts you Chris and me into his family as his sons

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You can't say you're not my brother and I can't say to you. You're not my brother. We're bound together

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Well, I tell you that story of a background because then a number of years later I was involved in the gender -neutral

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Bible controversy and I remember talking to sort of the the great

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The great star in the sky of evangelical theologians Carl Henry He was at that time living in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin and Carl Henry said to me, you know,

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Tim It's so sad that this issue is being argued about out in public He said, you know, this should be behind doors among scholars and theologians and I said to dr

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Henry I said dr Henry when has any issue ever been argued behind closed doors in the church and handled well

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I said you look at all the New Testament epistles all of them hang out our dirty laundry for everybody to read

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Everybody to see and it's still being read 2 ,000 years later If the Apostle Paul had tried to keep the conflicts with Peter private he would never have resisted

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Peter in his face and he never would have written the book of Galatians and Dr. Henry was was kind to me and not locking my head off for disagreeing with him.

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But now let me move forward to During that same time I went to work with the Council on Biblical Manhood wanted and the whole purpose of the council is to oppose feminism in the conservative evangelical church and when

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I went to work as the executive director, I'm not saying to Wayne Bruner Wayne if we fight on certain

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Bible texts and Don't fight on the necessity of having controversy in the church

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We're never going to win because the real problem today is that nobody ever wants

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Controversy to infect our churches our homes our relationships but if truth is

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Important then we have to fight for it God never has there been a generation that there has not been attacks upon that church unfortunately, those attacks come in our churches and So if you read in 1st

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Corinthians, there's a very very important verse where it says In the New American Standard, it says for there must also be factions among you

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So that so purpose clause so that those who are approved may become evident among you none of us like division but To this day.

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I still have conflict with my brother -in -law who CEO of Tyndale house Over the issue of whether or not it's faithful to remove the gender markings of Scripture, you know in the

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Bible now We have about one third and modern Bibles not the ESP and the NESP But the

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NLT the NIV 2011 other Bibles. We have about one third less

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Father words father and it's cognate. Okay one third. It's gone from about 1700 down to 1100 and So either this is what

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Revelation says people taking words out of God's Word and he says he will curse them for it or it isn't

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So, how do you have a polite fight over that? Now it's really difficult and I think the same thing is true of this battle over the

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Trinity You asked me a few minutes ago when I first heard about this I first heard about it when

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I was studying under Gordon Key and Roger Nicole and David Scholler three Feminists at Gordon Conwell when

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I was a student back in the 1979 to 83 here just a curiosity.

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What would Roger Nicole? Have actually described himself as a feminist or just as an egalitarian

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Back, then he would describe himself as an egalitarian. I think I mentioned to you yesterday that When we were at Gordon Conwell It was a union shop for women's ordination and they put out the faculty put out a memo saying that anybody that didn't believe in Ordination of women should should not say anything that would hurt anybody's feelings that did believe in it

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You know It was at the time of Alan Bloom's close to the American mind and it really was that kind of squelching

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Politically correct environment, but at that time Dr. Nicole was only a feminist in his view of church office.

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I Remember he took a position in one class saying look at the way God has used women

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In leadership in the church, and I remember saying to him afterwards. Dr. Nicole. I took all my theology from him including the atonement

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I said dr. Nicole That's the only time I've ever heard you use an argument from experience in any of my theology classes with you

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But then he left it went to Orlando where he was at reform seminar

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And we still kept in pretty good contact and while he was there. He came to repudiate not just scriptures commands against women

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Teaching and exercising authority over men in the church, but also scriptures teaching that The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.

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So he came to repudiate on every level Any any authority intrinsic to the male of the species flooding from God's father and With that came an attack back in the late 90s or mid 90s on the doctrine of the economic subordination of the sons of the father, okay, and He got kind of bombastic about it where he was accusing those who held to the economic subordination of being heretics and So I went up to him one year at ETS evangelical theological society

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I was a member at the time and I said to him dr. Nicole and we always greeted warmly and I said dr

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Nicole I'd like to ask you to file charges to have me removed from the evangelical theological society

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And he looked at me quizzically with a bit of a grin. He said why would that be and I said well You believe that you have said publicly that anybody that believes in the economic subordination of the sons of the father

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She is guilty of the subordination as heretic or heresy and I said I believe in the economic subordination

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Son to the father. So I think what you need to do is file charges against me because I'm guilty of heresy and He looked at me and then he said

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We you get you know, he had the Swiss accent. He said wait, you may not be guilty of Heresy but you are working with it and You know, that was the end of the discussion but for decades feminists have absolutely been opposed to the economic subordination of the son to the father and This historic doctrine of the church.

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That's been really sort of Boring until now is it has been under attack and here's the reason

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Feminists always want to say that the origin of the authority of the husband

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The authority of Adam the authority of fathers is a function of the fall They always want to say that because if they

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Acknowledge as Paul says in first Timothy 2 that Adam was created first and then he even that that's the origin

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Of the creation order and that authority flows from responsibility Immediately They can no longer argue that those who are

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Christians can rise above authority and submission In other words, they're opposed to authority principally opposed to authority

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And so sooner or later they have to go to the Trinity and say that authority in the

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Godhead was only a function of Jesus incarnate state and That from eternity past to eternity to come there's absolutely perfect Symmetry between the

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Father Son and Holy Spirit and there's no possibility of any economic subordination And that's what these men men like Carl Truman Liam Goldberg French is a good friend of mine

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That's what they're saying now and they're attacking Russ Moore. They're attacking Denny Burke.

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They're attacking Wayne Gruden Attacking Bruce Ware and there are weird things in each person's position, you know, they'll talk about things like Whether or not

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Jesus I Won't go into the the real Detailed parts of it right now, but in its essence the issue is

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Really a question of whether or not the feminists who have been fighting against the economic subordination

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With son to the father are right along now before I stop talking Let me read one verse which sort of is the locust classicist

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And that's first Corinthians 15 24 and 28 where the Apostle Paul under the under the inspiration of the

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Holy Spirit He writes this he says then comes the end When he which is

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Christ delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule every authority in power

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When all things are subjected to him Then the son himself will be subjected to him who put all things under him that God may be everything to everyone well the standard understanding of the

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Trinity as far as I know is that the Trinity is The Godhead which is composed of three

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Co eternal and equally powerful Members of the

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Godhead three persons in one being of God and Where would the economic subordination?

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Come into play with that. How is it? Is it specifically in regard to the role of the son?

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In relationship to the father just as for instance, we all know who are Trinitarians that Jesus died on Calvary and took upon himself the wrath of the wrath of the father and he

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Suffered and and died and rose again and ascended and so on the father did not do that.

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That does not make Jesus a lesser God and the father a greater God It was just a different role that Jesus had and and likewise the

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Holy Spirit has unique and specific roles Is that what economics of ordination is is really getting at? Well, the many use the word rule

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I Begin to get a little bit uptight and the reason is that Role undercuts the the essence of The Trinity if we relegate

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Jesus incarnate state simply to a role. It's not Sort of you know,

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I think today it's hard for us to hear the word role without thinking about you know Jack Nicholson, okay

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You know what I'm saying he takes on a role he takes off a role he's hired for this I was wondering where you were going with that And I think the same thing is true when it comes to Manhood and womanhood really likes to talk about roles.

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The fact is the husband's responsibility for his household is not a role It's intrinsic to his manhood because his manhood flows from God's fatherhood

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Okay, so if by that you mean that there's there are aspects of Christ's Responsibilities that adhere to his time of his incarnate state

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Yes, clearly dying on the cross is one of them in Philippians 2, you know

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We have a clear statement of him emptying himself, right? But we have to be very very careful with the question of roles because what we want to do is say something's a role and then act as if we have authority over it and It's hard for us not to because it's a role, right?

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but look to me the center of the issue is is there absolute symmetry from eternity past to eternity

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In the relationship of the Father Son and Holy Spirit absolute symmetry now You know that the

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East and Western Church have divided over that very issue right, and so We've we've resolved the issue that there is not perfect symmetry on the issue of the

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Holy Spirit so now people want to say well you're making Jesus into less than equal to God the

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Father if you say there's a symmetry a s as Opposed to symmetry symmetry and and our response is no because Jesus eternally proceeds from the

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Father Jesus was sent by the Father and you know people say well, yeah, there you have it.

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That's State and my response is no Before he was sent

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Before he became incarnate He was sent by the Father and then you go to the birth

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I just read where you see him laying everything under his father's feet I think scripture from cover to cover talks about the equality of the

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Father Son and Holy Spirit all right, and an Asymmetrical relationship between them.

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I remember when I was very young and I was a feminist and rather Egalitarian feminists right years and years ago, and I remember hearing

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Lewis say and I wasn't listening to Lewis But I don't remember whether I read it or just read the quote or heard it or something but Lewis said it's very very hard for Americans to understand the concept of equality with distinction

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Okay, and that's the whole ballgame on the issue of Trinity back in the early church

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We fought the battle over the Trinity for the sake of the equality of the Father Son and Holy Spirit And everybody would like to think that having fought that battle

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We don't have to mess with the Trinity anymore But today the battle over what

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God has made man as opposed to woman is Corrupting our

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Trinitarian theology. Okay, it's not that you know what Liam Gallagher and other other

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Other men have said is well, you know the complementarian They're the ones that are screwing around with the doctrines of Trinity because they want to read into the doctrine of the

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Trinity the Relationship they want to have with their heads at their home and their And the opposite is true

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It's not Wayne Groom and the complementarians at all who have picked this fight this fight would have been

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It would never have existed if it hadn't been for feminists like Carl Truman It says he doesn't like to identify himself as a complementarian

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Liam Gallagher is the same. These men are feminists and then they'll say, oh

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I can't believe you said that and I say look look at your doctrine of the Trinity Look at the way you teach about the leadership of women in the church

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Look at the practice that you've had in your churches of this and and they say yes

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But we don't believe that a woman should be the senior pastor or in the elders meeting and I say, okay

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So in other words, you have a couple of pharisaical points where you say, well, we're not going to go there but anybody knows that the battle over whether it's homosexuality or Whether it's the fatherhood of God writ large in his creation through the fatherhood of man

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All these battles are won and lost in chronology And so what we have today is a battle over the

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Trinity that is an absolute necessity When you have decided that there can't be equality with distinction, okay

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Now are there any? Any in the complementarian camp that are still nonetheless

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Opposing the view that you have and others who share this view of the economic subordination ism

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I'm sure, you know I mean at various depending upon which side of the bed they get up on those end all during Karl Truman are going to say

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That they're complementarian, right? So, yeah, there are lots of complementarians who will say that they reject the economic

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Subordination or if you don't like the word Subordination lots of articles are being written arguing about what's the best word to use and so I try to use the word a

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Symmetry as opposed to symmetry that there is something about relationship of the

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Father Son and Holy Spirit Which is not just Absolutely the same across the

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Trinity, right? I mean, you know, you just look at the names father son Holy Spirit right there

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You have a symmetry But you absolutely don't have any quality because it was when

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Jesus said that God was his father that the Jews went Symbolistic and said he makes himself equal to God and yet everybody knows that the relationship of a father and a son is

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Asymmetrical. So yeah, there are lots of complementarians who are going to want to maintain mostly men in their elders meetings and Usually a man in the pulpit

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Preaching and I'd say mostly unusual because Tim Keller identifies himself as a complementarian

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But he always has women in his elders meetings and he's had women in his pulpit and This is just when

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I was the executive director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood We had people who were on a board of reference who believed that women were okay to preach as long as they didn't

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Hold a permanent position or as long as the elders or their husbands told them to if I'm not mistaken

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That's the position of J .I. Packer and a number of people who associate with the Council on Biblical Manhood It might not be as true today as it was back in the late 90s and early aughts

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But I think it's pretty It's a melange in In the complementarian campus to what different people believe about different positions and the

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Trinity and all of that Well, we have to go to a break right now And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen and gmail .com

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Please give us your first name your city and state and country of residence If you live outside the

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USA and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable We look forward to hearing from you and your questions and more with Tim Bailey after these messages.

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So don't go away I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio And here's one of my favorite guests

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Todd Friel to tell you about a conference he and I are going to hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and occasional guest on Chris's show

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I Think I think that's what it's called

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Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta My new hometown it is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Malcolm Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people

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We hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference

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Thanks Todd, I think see you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth

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Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives Welcome back.

33:46

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in we're discussing a very controversial issue today over a matter that divides

33:54

Theologically Reformed Christians and I'm assuming others as well in regard to economic subordination ism

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Which is an issue involving the Trinity that there are

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There is disagreement over in regard to those holding to the

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Reformed faith It seems especially but there may be others and other theological camps who are also having this conflict with their brethren

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And I have had actually men on both sides of this issue on my program many times

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Just not on this issue yet. This is the first time I've ever addressed this issue. In fact,

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I've only learned about this issue Weeks ago, I believe so If you'd like to join us as well our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com no matter what side of the controversy you may be on or perhaps you're on neither because you don't know anything about it or don't understand it yet and We do already have a couple of people waiting, but we'll get to you as quickly as we can

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One of the things that is interesting to me is that I remember hearing about a couple of very notable

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Theologically Reformed Christians or Calvinistic Christians that both you and I We would recognize their names immediately and there was a time when they believed that Jesus Christ Even though he existed in eternity past and even though he is co -equal and co -eternal with the

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Father He did not receive the title of son until after his incarnation and earthly ministry and Then these individuals for as far as I know recanted those

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Views of of the Sonship of Christ believing that he was eternally the son now

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Is that there's that touching on what you're speaking about? well

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I think that I think it probably did touch on it as I said, I think it's so difficult for us to Get our minds around the fact that equality isn't everything ever since the

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French Revolution where you have Liberty Fraternity and equality equality has almost been a steamroller over every distinction that God has made and I think the thing we have to remember is that The church is

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Orthodox Confession of the Trinity and this is an important state The church historically its

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Orthodox Confession of the Trinity has always the time of the Arian controversy It's always explicitly declared order within the

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Trinity now you said earlier something about the issue of roles and Then you talk about when

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Jesus became the son I Think that those are issues that flow from the question is there in the

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Trinity an order is there an order and I think it's hard again for us to allow any order if we have

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We have drunk the egalitarian spirit of our age, and we think that you can't have distinction and equality

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And when if as far as your knowledge of church history is concerned when did the first time the non

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Economic subordination view the view that's opposed to what you're saying I guess you could say symmetrical understanding of the

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Trinity when did in your opinion or from your knowledge of history? When did that first? Arrive on the scene because obviously you believe that your view is being biblical in your opinion is the older view

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No What I'm saying is it's the universal history of the church's field.

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I'm not saying it's my view I'm simply defending the historic churches here.

38:09

This is so often something that people find scandalous When people today say this is the historic church's understanding and so people say no

38:18

It's just your understanding and I say No Actually, if you go back and read

38:24

Bernard of Clairvaux if you go back and read the early church fathers You back and read at the time of the

38:30

Aryan heresy This is just the normal view and I do not believe we ought to let the feminists and the people who want to use equality as a value up there with the

38:43

Trinity Destroy the consensus of the church across 2 ,000 years and of course you must realize that when

38:51

I use the terms your view being the considering the fact that I'm going to be having people on both sides of the issue on that that That's things that I have to say

39:02

I know I know listen I it's hard to have these discussions not in person because my eyes would have been twinkling as I talked to you

39:11

But I mean, I do think it's important for Protestants to recognize that we do live under our fathers

39:18

Who have made great sacrifices? To study scripture and to take positions on it.

39:24

And so in a day where everything values everything's relative Everybody wants to personalize their truth and my truth and his truth

39:33

I just don't want to do that because it seems to me it's so easy for people to say well

39:40

Tim's an idiot Orleans an idiot or I don't like we I don't like what we have to realize is

39:47

God has Controversy to come up for a purpose, you know, can I can

39:52

I talk to you for a second Chris about Harold OJ? Book called Eric. You ever heard of that book?

39:58

No well, here's a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School a friend of mine and It's a classic on on heresy subtitle of heresy and orthodoxy in the history of the church and Joe Brown says in his history of heresies that every every every century or two or every four or five generations has a great battle that they have to fight on Some doctrine the church and you can look back at the time of the

40:29

Reformation and see the thought that the battle over Justification may be being the central

40:36

Principle that was being fought over you go back to the area in controversy. Well, I Don't think anybody who's half alive today

40:45

Would say that there is any battle for truth that comes close to the intensity of the battle over anthropology specifically over the value of human life the nature of human life and the nature of sexuality and So really this

41:03

Controversy is coming about despite 2 ,000 years of history of Uniform witness from Scripture and our church fathers on this issue.

41:13

It's coming about because everybody's trying to destroy What God ordained when he made

41:20

Adam first and then Eve and everybody wants to say that that's a concession to spend that it's a

41:25

Concession to the flesh and that Jesus only had to take on any kind of a

41:32

Symmetrical relationship to the father because he had to deal with then he had to become incarnate One of the issues that consistently comes up on the part of those attacked in the historic doctrines

41:42

They say well, you know it wasn't necessary that God the father be the one who sent the son the son could have sent the father and We heard something similar a decade or two ago when the openness theology people said well

41:57

It wasn't necessary to have the vicarious substitutionary atonement for the redemption of mankind it could have been some other way that I did the atonement and Anytime people begin to tell me that you know,

42:10

God could have done something other than his son died And sending his son to die

42:18

I Get I get really scared because I think who told you that What what commitment required you to say that God didn't and his son it makes you tremble to hear people say that Could it be that?

42:37

That those on either side are viewing the opposing views as for instance perhaps those

42:46

Against economic subordination ism are saying that your view is too close to Aryan ism and Those on your side are looking at the symmetrical view and saying that their views are too close to modalism

42:59

Is there is there a connection there as far as the the fear that is going on with the differences of opinion there?

43:07

Yeah, I think that's a yeah. I think that's a very good observation Chris and what

43:13

I think is that That's part of the argument over whether to use the world the word subordination whether to use the word rule whether to use the words the symmetry and asymmetry

43:27

You know in any battle you have to argue over your vocabulary and as you argue vocabulary

43:37

Actually, here's an interesting thing. What Joe Brown says in his book heresies is not only

43:42

Every couple of generations has its battle for truth But also it is we fight those battles this becomes more clear than it has ever been

43:52

Before on the part of the church is understanding of Scripture And so I think when you bring up the issue of the tension in language the tension and emphasis

44:01

I think that's a very important thing that has to be fought through But it really does have to be fought through It really does matter nothing matters more than our doctrine of God And I'm very happy that I'm frame has made very clear statements of the historic doctrine of the

44:22

I'm going to call it the a symmetry that the order and the the

44:30

The distinction between the three members of the Trinity because I think John's brain

44:35

Has been very helpful to the church on many levels The Don't those who believe the will they have to those that believe in a symmetrical

44:48

Trinity Or symmetrical relationship between father and son they have to believe there was a period

44:54

Obviously when that was not the case when he was incarnate at least they have to believe during that part of Jesus's existence

45:05

That it was different Yes, you're right. They do believe and They constantly affirm

45:15

That there is an asymmetry There is an order there is a hierarchy between the father and son

45:22

I mean you look at the Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane or if it be possible take this cup from there

45:28

Nevertheless, not my will be done, but thine and you see it so much in the gospel of John where again and again

45:34

You know Jesus says look I'm here to obey my father or things like I I only do works

45:42

But I've seen my father do before me The father's speaking. This is my beloved son in whom

45:48

I'm well -pleased all of those things any father with a son or any son of a father recognizes the kind of Tenderness and love that exists even though there is fatherhood and sonship

46:02

The question really isn't so much the nature of The order in the relationship of the father son and spirit when

46:10

Jesus is incarnate the real question is whether that flows from From eternity to eternity

46:21

That's the question another whether it is in the very nature of the three members of the

46:27

Trinity that they have both equality and some form of asymmetry

46:34

So if you really want to purify the question and you're having a debate or argument or discussion

46:39

With somebody you love whose reforms you ask them Is it true that from the from?

46:47

time Immemorial back That the father son and Holy Spirit have had some order in their relationship and that that order is not simply a function of Jesus Incarnation And then you can argue about what that order is, sorry for interrupting

47:06

No, that's quite. All right We have David in Ada, Ohio And I think it's pronounced

47:15

Ada. It's either Ada or Ada. I don't know But he quotes Charles Haddon Spurgeon and I guess he wants your reaction to its relevance to this discussion

47:26

It appears to have been a matter of concern for a very long time Even among professing

47:32

Christians while there is a great amount of religion. There is too little godliness There is much external formalism

47:39

But too little inward acknowledgement of God too little living on God living with God and relying upon God Hence arises the sad fact that when you enter many of our places of worship

47:51

You will certainly hear the name of God mentioned but except in the benediction You would scarcely know there was a

47:58

Trinity in many places dedicated to Jehovah The name of Jesus is too often kept in the background.

48:04

The Holy Spirit is almost entirely Neglected and very little is said concerning his sacred influence even religious men have become to a large degree

48:16

Godless in this age we sadly require more preaching regarding God more preaching of those things which look not so much at the creature to be saved as At God the

48:28

Great One to be extolled my confer my firm conviction is that in proportion as we have

48:35

More regard for the sacred Godhead the wondrous Trinity in unity Shall we see a greater display of God's power and a more glorious?

48:43

Manifestation of his might in our churches. I don't know if you see a

48:50

Application to that that quote for what we're discussing, but that's what our listener

48:55

David and Ada, Ohio had to offer Now I'll say it this time from my perspective

49:06

Okay, Chris from my perspective. I really I never heard of any

49:13

Disagreement with the historic doctrine and so I was around feminists like right not like my dear brother

49:19

Roger Nicole And so yeah, I think that it's a bottom -up theology. It comes from people denying

49:27

Authority and submission as much as they possibly can get away with in their church their denomination

49:33

And then they read that into the Trinity and I you know Whether it's gender -neutral

49:39

Bibles whether it's how the words you dial a translated in the book of John whether it's how we translate the first Corinthians 6 9 on homosexuality

49:49

We either have an eye to the world and trying to please them and avoiding offense by taking

49:56

Nasty things out of scripture or we start with God and his word and that's it.

50:02

That's just it Now it doesn't mean that we don't explain it to people and preach it and it doesn't mean that we always are happy about What scripture says

50:11

I'd like to think I always was so yeah I think that when Spurgeon calls this back to God not just God, but the

50:18

Father Son Holy Spirit and each of their unique and Parallel Works, you know this last

50:29

Sunday I preached in first Corinthians tell about the gift of the Holy Spirit in the church and I read

50:36

Saying it's good that I'm leaving because I'm going to send the come I think today in the reformed world

50:45

It may be different from Spurgeon's time It may be that the only person we ever talk about is

50:50

Jesus and the only doctrine we ever open our mouths about is great And I think maybe in the

50:56

Pentecostal movement the Holy Spirit and certainly among Unitarian it's God But yes, we have to go back to having

51:05

God Be the origin of his word and his word being our absolute final word

51:13

You know, we can talk all we want. My dad used to say that he didn't want to say he was an inerrantist

51:18

He said because the inerrantists are always talking about their theory of inspiration He said what

51:23

I want is I want more people who will talk about and live under the authority

51:29

Scripture instead of talking about its inspiration, but let's live under its authority

51:35

And I think the same thing is true of God the Father Son and Holy Spirit Do you think

51:43

That the symmetrical view of the Trinity is as serious as something that should require the label

51:50

Heresy and are those that are opposing you using that label? When I say you of course,

51:56

I'm speaking of those that believe in economic subordination ism Are they using the label heresy?

52:02

Is it that severe in their minds? Well, I have only heard the word heresy used by those who deny the eternal

52:13

Order of the Trinity I have not heard personally People who hold to the historic view calling the others heretics now if you were to ask me

52:25

Is it a heresy? In other words, does it strike at the vitals of the Christian faith? Okay, if you push me,

52:33

I'll say yes, but look Let's stop name -calling and let's have the argument.

52:40

Let's let it be intense Let's have the people in the pews know every facet of the argument

52:45

Let's have them go home and read their Bibles to examine who's right You know if you are now and as Dr.

52:54

Nicole and his feminist friends and as The guys in alignment with my friend

53:01

Liam Gallagher and Karl Truman these other guys you know if you if you get up on their bully pulpit, you know and And you announce that people that is here to the eternal

53:14

Order the Trinity or heretic It's like dude Come on You know,

53:23

I have not called them heretics and look I like to have men be men in fighting and So if they feel like it'll help them, you know

53:34

Punches tell me I'm a heretic and to yell at my children that I'm a heretic and get my people to fire me by I'm a heretic fine.

53:42

Listen, that's the reason I went up to dr. Nicole at ETS and I said, dr.

53:48

Nicole I want you to file charges of My being a heretic and have me removed from ETS.

53:55

Okay, and the reason I was doing that is I knew Dr. Nicole didn't believe I was a heretic

54:03

You Were saying that tongue -in -cheek basically You love me but love

54:12

Love should not cover a multitude of doctrinal sin And so even taking past the question of our love for each other

54:20

Come on, get off your high horse and you know for me to say that to dr Nicole is it's ridiculous.

54:27

The man was as erudite as any man I've ever known He had an encyclopedic knowledge of everything he ever lectured on but you know when men get into into a dander about things they do pull their punches and Boy, you read the histrionics of Liam Gauguin Liam Gauguin now mind you this is the senior minister of 10th

54:53

Presbyterian Church Remember I grew up in Philadelphia, right? This man is absolutely bombastic

55:00

When it comes to his accusing me and other people who hold to the eternal order of the

55:09

Trinity of accusing us of Basically being you know, I would say wacko.

55:15

He says this he says He says He says about us because they are building their case by reinventing the doctrine of God and are doing so without Telling the

55:28

Christian public what they are up to what we have Is in fact it apart from biblical

55:34

Christianity is expressed in our creeds and confessions out of that Well in that same piece he quotes

55:40

Calvin as if Calvin agrees in him and denying the nature of manhood and womanhood in the world and Calvin believes the exact opposite of what

55:49

Liam and I have talked to him on phone I've written publicly about he won't admit that he's abused

55:55

Calvin. This is plain dishonor and so men are in high dungeon right now on this issue and I say look,

56:04

I don't mind the intensity of the argument But look if you're going to call me a heretic

56:10

Then file charges against me in Presbyterian, you know, get me removed from ETS You know

56:17

Otherwise, let's have the argument let's have it publicly so that the church can weigh who has

56:23

God's approval and let's not use bomb back and Scare attack, okay

56:31

David had another very brief quote by Spurgeon that I think applies to a misapprehension or misunderstanding of things that are being said

56:43

Spurgeon said ah beloved he who knoweth the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost as he should know them

56:50

Never sayeth Never seteth one before another he is not he is not more thankful to one than the other that was

56:58

Charles Adams Spurgeon and There are some who might think That what you are saying and obviously you would vehemently disagree with this

57:09

That this would become this would be dangerously close to henotheism that you have one supreme

57:15

God amongst lesser gods Obviously being a Trinitarian you're not that clearly, but how do you respond to those who have that misapprehension or misunderstanding?

57:36

We're not putting God the Father or God the Son and God the Father and God the

57:41

Son before the Holy Spirit When we talk about there being order in their relationship

57:46

Because when you say putting one before the other It is a clear statement denying equality

57:53

Okay And so no man who loves God the Father God the

57:58

Son and God the Holy Spirit is ever going to lift one up at the expense of the what would

58:08

I say the value at the expense of the Dignity of any of the other members of the

58:15

Trinity but that begs the questions over whether or not there actually is order in the relationship of the three and So, you know, you can use the words first second third.

58:27

I Mean the church has always spoken of the first and second and third member of the Trinity to what is that now a heresy?

58:34

It doesn't indicate that they aren't equal. It doesn't indicate that they don't have equal honor and Yet what of things that Jesus says about his father?

58:44

What of what the Holy Spirit says in Corinthians that I read at the beginning of the hour?

58:50

You know, how are we to understand these things if it is not that the father has glorified his son from all eternity and Yeah, that makes us uncomfortable if we're zealous to defend

59:06

The equality of the Trinity that the father has given glory to the son from all eternity

59:13

But this is a mystery. This is the Trinity and we have to adhere to biblical language

59:20

We can't run a steamroller of egalitarianism over the doctrine of the

59:26

Trinity as it's revealed in Scripture and it's been declared in the confessions of the church and in the church father

59:34

It doesn't matter how much our world hates Distinction and I'm telling it may be the defining characteristics of our hate, of our age, that we are trying to eviscerate all the distinctions that God has given his creation starting with man and woman and it doesn't matter how much we hate distinctions

59:54

God in his word has made Distinctions from the very beginning and there are distinctions in the

01:00:00

Trinity and equality should not destroy distinction And I want to thank you so much for being on the program again, brother

01:00:09

I look forward to having you back and for those of you who want to look up the website for clear notes church

01:00:14

It's clear notes org Clear notes org also clear notes bloomington .com

01:00:21

clear notes bloomington .com Chris can I do one thing which is to direct people to an excellent summary of the issue?

01:00:30

Yes, definitely It's on bailey blog .com B -a -y -l -y -b -l -o -g bailey blog .com

01:00:37

and go on there and search for Steven F -e -e -b -e -n Boyer B -o -y -e -r contending for Nicene Trinitarianism It's an excellent thing written back in 2009 and it really does clarify the issue great and coming up next we're going to have the

01:00:57

Assistant pastor of worship and liturgy at clear note church in Bloomington Jody Killingsworth who'll be on after the station break, but the thanks a lot

01:01:06

Tim. We look forward to having you back soon Blessed and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a

01:01:14

Question for our guest Jody Killingsworth our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:01:21

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these words from our sponsors

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That's g3 conference .com Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there

01:04:55

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our second guest today is Pastor Jody Killingsworth.

01:05:02

He is assistant pastor of worship and liturgy at Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana And we are going to be discussing his music through a really gifted

01:05:14

Band for lack of a better term, perhaps he could tell me a better way to describe them But my soul among lions, which is the name of the group and I love that name

01:05:24

I can still remember vividly when someone on Facebook posted a

01:05:31

Song that they do from the book of Psalms. Why do the nation's rage and I fell in love with that song immediately started to share it on my own on Facebook And then

01:05:41

I eventually get by God's good providence got to meet Jody by phone and by Email and that is why we have him on the program today

01:05:53

And you just heard his pastor or one of his pastors Tim Bailey on the broadcast and now it's my honor and privilege to welcome the very first on to iron sharpens iron

01:06:02

Jody Killingsworth Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's a pleasure

01:06:07

Well, if you could tell us something about the uniqueness of the music ministry and the praise and worship and liturgy at Clear Note Church There's a long story here

01:06:20

That our church is familiar with about the The evolution

01:06:25

I guess you could say of our praise. It started as a small reformed church 20 years ago with a very traditional approach to its singing had a pianist and the use the new

01:06:43

Trinity hymnal and Since we're situated here in Bloomington, Indiana near a very major music school

01:06:50

We had lots of talent in the church and the church in its singing was Oriented around its voices its four -part harmony and the elders at some point felt that it was a point of of spiritual pride on the part of the congregation that really needed to be dealt with that that it was it was like the orienting principle of our community

01:07:17

This is just some few a few years before I came to Bloomington Myself, but the elders made it a decision

01:07:24

I think a very wise one to kind of blow the whole thing up and bring in contemporary instruments and change try to change the worship style of the church really as a

01:07:35

Discipline of the congregation at a point of its pride To to work to make our worship here more accessible to To outsiders to the uninitiated to the poor and so that's what

01:07:53

They the elders had laid that groundwork before I ever came to Bloomington And then

01:07:58

I came along as a classical violinist thinking that I was coming to Bloomington to study

01:08:03

Baroque violin I came to the church was led back to faith

01:08:09

Through the ministry of this church and was put to work pretty quickly given the responsibility of making what was a kind of fledgling contemporary music ensemble or band

01:08:21

Into something that really worked Well that those are the first few years of my ministry here was trying to figure out

01:08:29

How a band worked how it was driven how to make? Music in that way was very unfamiliar to me

01:08:37

Lord brought some people along at just the right moment to help me you had more knowledge of and more experience in that genre

01:08:45

But all but also lots of skill and training and so we've been working together to try to make music of a contemporary genre, but to do it faithfully to do it in Agreement with the history of Christian worship and to reject those things that I think most of your listeners will agree are not

01:09:12

God honoring that is so much around us today in contemporary worship now are is clear note church

01:09:21

Adherence to Exclusive psalmody. I know that one of the goals that you have in your music ministry is

01:09:27

To bring psalms into more of a prevalent use in the church, but I don't know if you're

01:09:34

Actually exclusive psalm singers if you could Well, we do hold to the regulative principle of worship that is central to the

01:09:42

Reformation That's that scripture does not authorize for use in worship and Or what scripture does not authorize explicitly or by inference?

01:09:54

Then it's forbidden in worship. We hold to that but we don't mean By that though.

01:10:00

We don't think that it means that that we must sing that it's limited to 150 psalms in scripture

01:10:08

We don't think that that's the only thing that is divinely authorized by scripture to be sung

01:10:13

When it speaks in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 that we are to sing psalms hymns and spiritual songs we think those who try to limit that to the hundred and fifty psalms or make a very thin case and One that we don't buy into in Ephesians 3

01:10:31

Paul speaks of his insight into the mystery of Christ As something that in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed

01:10:42

To his holy apostles and prophets in the spirit Paul is saying that we who live today on this side of Christ's coming and his death and resurrection

01:10:54

We have greater insight than David Moses and Asaph did and so what to prevent us to have such abundant knowledge a fullness of knowledge from composing praises to Christ To be sung just as we do freely with our prayers that are prose

01:11:16

Isaac what in His essay a short essay toward the improvement of psalmody back in the 1700s he

01:11:25

He said that why should we be careful to pray in the name of Christ? Always and offer up our praises in his name when we speak in prose and yet when we give thanks in verse

01:11:36

Why do we bind ourselves to take no more notice of the name of Christ than David or Moses did?

01:11:42

There's some aspects to what his way of arguing himself into a new psalter that I don't approve of But that one

01:11:50

I do. I think that we should There's nothing preventing us in the new in the

01:11:57

New Testament era in the new covenant from Writing songs that are consistent with all of Scripture glorifying the name of Christ So here at church we sing hymns and that's what we did focused on for the first probably seven or eight years of our ministry of music was to try to Try to mind the hymn book as it were for those great classics of the faith that Christians have sung the last few hundred years that we could you could we could use and appropriate for in this

01:12:31

Contemporary genre and make them work. Well and then but all along we knew that the psalms were central to the church's singing in history, in fact

01:12:45

We have a collection of historical Bibles here on campus at the Lilly Library sometimes we go and look at them and there are these beautiful Bibles that have gilded edges and You feel if you turn it on its side and look at the at the pages

01:13:06

You'll see that in the middle of these beautiful gold leaf pages It's all worn right in the middle right where the book of Psalms are

01:13:14

Thumbprints and smudges and all the gold is worn off and that is just a testament to how important the psalms have been to readers of Scripture in the past I Understand that the early church wouldn't even ordain a man who didn't have the

01:13:30

Psalter memorized So knowing that we've been we've been thinking well, what do we do with the psalms?

01:13:37

What are we supposed to make of the fact that we And at least in our tradition as a church have don't have a a psalter

01:13:47

Didn't have a tradition of singing psalms What are we going to do with it given the fact that we have made a decision as a church to go in a contemporary?

01:13:56

vernacular direction with our style and Of course, there are psalters out there that That have a complete setting of all the psalms

01:14:07

But what they don't do they're all strophic hymns in their form. They don't take advantage of choruses

01:14:15

Bridges other or more fuller forms, which actually are very well suited to the emotional

01:14:22

Landscape of the psalms which vary widely even within one psalm. We so We decided

01:14:30

Since we didn't find anything out there that suited us that we needed to do this bodacious thing of trying to versify the psalms ourselves for singing and so We're we're trying to become poets as well as musicians

01:14:47

Well, there was no better poet than the Holy Spirit when he inspired This psalm psalm 2 and I'm going to read the words to it before we play

01:14:57

The song that you have created why do the nation's rage which I fell in love with as I mentioned earlier when

01:15:03

I first heard it In fact, I especially play it every time or I should

01:15:09

I say I post it on my Facebook page every time That our nation is going through some kind of a horrendous

01:15:20

Horrifying crisis of ideology that obviously means I post it quite often

01:15:28

When something like emerges as a as a law for instance Like same -sex marriage and things like that But let me read a psalm 2

01:15:39

Why do the nation's rage and the people's plot in vain the kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers?

01:15:48

Take counsel together Against the Lord and against his anointed Saying let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us

01:15:59

He who sits in the heavens laughs the Lord holds them in derision then he will speak to them in his wrath and Terrify them in his fury saying as for me.

01:16:10

I have set my king on Zion my holy hill I will tell of the decree the

01:16:16

Lord said to me you are my son Today I have begotten you ask of me and I will make the nation's your heritage and the ends of the earth your possession

01:16:27

You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel

01:16:33

Now therefore Oh Kings be wise be warned Oh rulers of the earth

01:16:38

Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling kiss the Sun Lest he be angry and you perish in the way for his wrath is quickly kindled Blessed are all those who take reference refuge in him and now here is why do the nation's rage?

01:16:57

by my soul among lions Nothing that's true

01:17:28

Tell me why do the heathen nation's great Kings and rulers take their stand

01:17:45

Against the Lord and his anointed To tear from them

01:17:51

Messiah's And set themselves upon his day.

01:17:57

Well, tell me why do the heathen nation's rain? The God of heaven laughs to me laughs tomorrow to school.

01:18:07

I've said my king on holy Zion's He rebukes the man his anger says today my child is born and woe to those refusing my goodwill

01:18:22

My son just ask of me and I will give the nation's of the earth for you to rule them with a mighty iron rod

01:18:32

For you to dash them all the pieces and then pound them into dirt until you spread your fame and power

01:18:39

To love a nation bow before the son of God Now listen

01:18:57

Kings be why All you rulers come and check your pride get down on your knees rejoice with trembling

01:19:09

Kiss the Sun while he is near And let your age become a holy fear

01:19:18

The son of God calls out to you come find your rest in me come stand with me up here on Zion's Hill My range is soon be kindled.

01:19:29

So you best come bow your knee and woe to those refusing my goodwill

01:19:38

My son just ask of me and I will give the nation's of the earth for you to rule them with a mighty iron rod

01:19:47

For you to dash them all the pieces and then pound them into dirt until you spread your fame and power

01:19:54

Oh My son just ask of me and I will give the nation's of the earth for you to rule them with a mighty iron rod

01:20:10

For you to dash them all the pieces and then pound them into dirt until you spread your fame and power

01:20:25

Hey, man, hallelujah, I love that song and I don't know if you would agree with my description of it, but I have a friend who is a retired

01:20:38

Presbyterian pastor and he hates Bluegrass music and I said to him well, and he's also a post -millennialist a very strong Post -millennialist

01:20:48

I said well I have a song that I would categorize as bluegrass that I know you're going to love and I began to play this for him and A huge smile just broke out over his face and he was nodding his head enthusiastically and I don't know if you would describe it as bluegrass, but Am I that far off?

01:21:09

well, true bluegrass musicians everywhere would be horrified but I Don't know why they would be horrified but It they certainly wouldn't be horrified by the song unless they have really horrendous

01:21:32

I happen to love bluegrass myself. Not all of it, but I am NOT a big fan of country music, but I do love some real rural

01:21:43

Backwoods mountain music And Yeah And with now were you?

01:21:51

The lead vocals in there or is that more than one person? I couldn't tell if that was an overdubbing of one person or I Am a lead vocalist

01:22:02

I'm trying to remember when we went to record it Probably I did overdub the harmony part at that point was we hadn't that was like When we had just been created we've been playing together as musicians for a long time, but The band was just getting started in fact, it was at the moment

01:22:24

Last year when the Supreme Court made his decision in Obergefell versus Hodges That we had this song

01:22:33

Kicking around we had shown a few of our close friends and asked them for their feedback and and one of them said

01:22:40

The court ruled and this and within a couple of days one said you guys got to record that and get it up online

01:22:46

Because it will encourage people at this moment So we were just scrambling to get it done.

01:22:52

However, we could So I think I probably did sing the backups But now that we were a year into this we've moved more to using all three of us as vocalists

01:23:02

Although I do typically sing the lead We have Susan in Newville Pennsylvania who asks, please tell us about the name my soul among lions

01:23:16

Yeah, sure It comes from Psalm 57 verse 4 there are a number of references in the

01:23:23

Psalter that are like this one But it says in verse 457. My soul is among lions

01:23:29

I must lie among those who breathe forth fire Even the sons of men whose teeth are spears and arrows and their tongue a sharp sword we were looking for a name for this endeavor and It's kind of embarrassing to admit but we one of our friends resorted to the old open the scriptures and drop your finger

01:23:56

And see what happens. We'll see what you find And in fact, he was just ready to move on, you know, and I said wait that's really good

01:24:10

So this is one of those that one of those very rare occasions when that method worked Phrase but the context that it's in where David is surrounded by Men who are breathing forth fire and pressing him with their tongue

01:24:29

It just seemed like a perfect description of the day in which we live Where we are oppressed and restricted and what we can say

01:24:39

Where those who testify to God's truth to the power of God to the authority of Jesus Christ are hated and maligned and slandered

01:24:48

It is a perfect Descriptor of the life of a

01:24:54

Christian today if they're going to be faithful Well, you know, I've heard that my soul among lions uses that method all the time

01:25:00

So look out for there are two new CDs a dog returns to its own vomit And Judas hanged himself

01:25:12

But I do have good news Seriously, though Susan and Newville, Pennsylvania, you're gonna receive a free

01:25:18

CD for writing in today and describe the CD Which CD is this Jody? Well, this is volume 1 psalms 1 through 10

01:25:26

There are 17 settings on there of the first 10 psalms. Well 16 plus a song

01:25:31

That is derivative or based on one verse from I think psalm 7 where God says

01:25:42

He's angry or David says God is angry with today the wicked every day That's what it says in the

01:25:47

King James. And so I woke up one morning with this Song going in my head.

01:25:53

God is angry with the wicked every day and It didn't turn out to be a whole psalm setting

01:25:59

But it was a song that we believed in and we through we added it to the album So it's 16 versions on there the first 10 psalms.

01:26:07

We've moved on now This year. We just did a completed a successful Kickstarter campaign to fund the recording of volume 2

01:26:16

Psalms 11 through 20 and that should come out early next year great and Keep your eye out in the mail

01:26:26

Susan for that that's going to be mailed to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS calm as soon as we get them from Jody and We want to thank

01:26:36

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for sending out all of our winners Bibles and free books that they win by submitting questions and Once again, their website is

01:26:46

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS Bible Book Service Calm CV BBS calm.

01:26:52

Thank you Todd and Patty Jennings for being such faithful supporters of iron sharpens iron. We're going to our final break in the program today and We're gonna be playing some more music and hearing more from Jody said please don't go away

01:27:06

And if you have any questions for Jody, please email us at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:27:11

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away we're gonna be right back with Jody Killingsworth Are you a

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

01:28:31

I trying to please Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

01:28:41

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

01:28:48

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

01:28:53

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

01:28:59

Apostles priority It must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

01:29:14

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:29:20

You can call us at 508 528 5750 That's 508 528 5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons

01:29:31

Worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace. You can find us at Providence Baptist Church Ma .org

01:29:38

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01:30:55

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guests for the second hour of today's show and the remaining half hour to come here is

01:31:04

Pastor Jody Killingsworth assistant pastor of worship and liturgy at Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is

01:31:16

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Josh in Riverhead, Long Island, New York Wants to know who were your greatest musical influences?

01:31:34

Uh Bob Dylan Probably more than any

01:31:40

I grew up in I was homeschooled with the

01:31:45

Bill Gothard program and if you anybody out there knows about that, you'll know that We didn't listen to very much of anything growing up Very restrictive environment when it comes to musical styles so but I did sort of in high school started beyond outside of classical music and Traditional hymnody did sneak in some

01:32:15

Some other influences and one of the first things I really latched on to was Bob Dylan and I've listened to him pretty seriously for ever since Now big influence.

01:32:28

I don't know how much you know about his life, but he did he really entirely Abandoned the

01:32:35

Christian faith or you know, I don't know where he is because I remember for a period there He was professing to be a believer.

01:32:42

He came out with at least One Christian album and I love you got to serve somebody.

01:32:47

I think it's a very true. You do have to serve somebody and And it's gonna be either the devil or the

01:32:55

Lord. There's no gray area and He also

01:33:03

He played I believe guitars had backup singing on a on a

01:33:09

Steve on a Keith Green album a Keith Graham, but I don't know whatever happened to him if he just totally and Clearly renounced the faith or what happened to him?

01:33:20

Well, I don't know that he is clearly renounced the faith but I I Don't have a lot of hope for him just based on the little bits of things that I've picked up in interviews

01:33:31

And the things that he's supported and endorsed lately however, I think it's true that of his lyrics that Even before he became a

01:33:41

Christian And after he has what in my opinion wandered away from that Throughout his lyrics there is an assumption that there is a

01:33:53

God and that that God is to be answered to and I that's one of the things

01:33:59

I appreciate most about his writing is that He assumes that there is a

01:34:04

God that there is a judge even in his later. These are the last few albums. There's been

01:34:10

Elements of that that I've really appreciated, but I think that Dylan Has suffered the fate that most

01:34:17

Christian artists Have suffered that they have not submitted themselves to a local church and put their ministry

01:34:26

They're writing under the authority of shepherds to guide them and keep them accountable

01:34:31

I think Dylan has is a church unto himself and There are no

01:34:37

Lone Ranger Christians We are to be living in community and under authority and I think that when one refuses to do that One puts their soul their ministry their faith in jeopardy

01:34:51

And I that's what I think has happened to Dylan Amen yes,

01:34:56

I could even say that clearly about my own life when I Backslid years ago into a period of darkness in my life and was under church discipline and it all really began with a lazy attitude

01:35:12

Towards church attendance and committed in my commitment That developed because I let the trials of life

01:35:21

Make me lackadaisical about church commitment rather than making it stronger and I thank

01:35:29

God that I was restored and and Thank God that I'm alive actually and I could say that with personal experience people like that phrase

01:35:42

You don't need to belong to a church to be saved Well, you're commanded in the Word of God not to forsake the assembling of the the brethren and also to submit yourself to your elders so If you're a

01:35:53

Christian you shouldn't be living in violation against God's Word to violation of God's Word, but The in fact when you brought up Bob Dylan it just occurred to me that I could hear him singing that song

01:36:07

Why do the nation's rage? You know you did a better job, but I could hear him singing that yeah, and not to belabor

01:36:16

Bob Dylan, but I often thought of what would happen if Bob Dylan was a contestant on America's Got Talent, I mean if he were to get up there with nobody ever knowing who he was and He had to sing somebody else's song because I think that's what they usually do have somebody

01:36:37

They have the musicians and singers sing other artists music and You know,

01:36:45

I'll be what would They do with Bob Dylan getting up there and singing something like You are the song that makes the whole world sing.

01:36:57

I can just see him They would be basing it purely on his voice and within seconds buzzing him because they would not even know of his

01:37:07

His talent when it comes to composing and so on But it's also very expressive

01:37:16

Yeah, and it really fits a lot of what he's singing about as well

01:37:22

But anyway, I'm gonna play another song that Jody has provided for us today and No, by the way,

01:37:32

I think I forgot to mention Josh in Riverhead. You're also getting a free CD Compliments of Jody Killingsworth and my soul among lions, so we're gonna need your

01:37:44

Full mailing address so we can send that out to you or so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services can send that out to you and This song is you are my shield from Psalm 3

01:38:00

By my soul among lions, and I hope you enjoy it See how my foes

01:38:11

Increase See them rising up against me

01:38:19

They robbed my soul He and say there is no help in God But you

01:38:37

Oh You are my she

01:38:46

You lift my head I'm as safe with you

01:38:55

Out on the field As in my bed

01:39:04

You Keep my life concealed you are my

01:39:39

Oh, yes Destroy the wicked

01:40:44

And save us

01:40:54

You the hallelujah i love that one too i'm sure middle of all of these uh...

01:43:04

beautiful songs from the salter and uh... we do have a listener in indianapolis indiana i don't know how far that is from you uh...

01:43:18

okay well erin in indianapolis indiana says who's your greetings to mister killingsworth wondering whether these great songs are among those among those song in worship at clear note yes uh...

01:43:35

uh... not all of them uh... this is something of an experiment still that we're engaging in is uh...

01:43:42

how do we make this genre of music work congregationally the two we've listened to though we sing regularly here in in our worship we have found out that there's the occasional song that we produced that just doesn't that's more individualistic uh...

01:43:58

too much so to to use it for it to ever get really comfortable congregationally but we're still experimenting to see with what what a congregation can can handle i had a lady in our church a dear woman say recently that she listened she got a sneak peek at some of the the new songs coming down the pike in she her comment i thought what did you think of it she said well i wasn't sure how many of them would work would work as a congregation but you know i'm not sure that uh...

01:44:32

that's something you should be discouraged by i think that if we each album that comes out if we get three or four of these songs to stick around and and be used uh...

01:44:43

regularly that that that will be success so it is something of an experiment but yeah we do sing a lot of these in worship well great

01:44:52

Aaron thanks for the question and you will get a free cd as well compliments of my soul among lions and thanks also to our friends at cumberland valley bible book service will be mailing that to you and by the way what is the i know that uh...

01:45:08

college basketball fans will recognize the term hoosier uh...

01:45:14

what it was exactly the origins of that anyways i have no idea yet as i i i never understood what what the heck that was all about but i'm going to find out now but i i i don't know i'm embarrassed to say i don't know well maybe

01:45:34

Aaron knows but uh... anyway thank you very much Aaron and you brought you brought up something interesting because one of the criticisms that i have heard uh...

01:45:47

by people who uh... have an axe to grind against much not all but much of what goes under the banner of contemporary christian music is that it is written and orchestrated uh...

01:46:05

specifically as songs of entertainment where it would be nearly impossible for a congregation to join in a bit too clumsy you couldn't do it that way and and that has been a i believe t david gordon may have mentioned that in an interview i did with him he wrote uh...

01:46:23

why johnnie can't sing hymns but uh... that that is a very important element of worship isn't it that we're not just sitting passively watching other people perform and entertain us we are supposed to be also worshipping oh absolutely participation is the name of the game and worship though scripture the new testament gives i think example in uh...

01:46:48

first corinthians fourteen of uh... individuals blessing others and teaching and admonishing others with uh...

01:46:56

solo performances uh... uh... but generally speaking we we keep our worship as corporate as possible uh...

01:47:07

you know i think that that's a fair criticism of a lot of of contemporary christian worship however i'm not sure i'm not convinced that it's universally or across the board of the style as much as it is the uh...

01:47:25

i want to say the effectiveness of the style that that the way it's performed by many in the in the industry today and it is an industry is that they go for a hyper sexual individualistic breathy way of singing which just does not it might be interesting to listen to to some people but it certainly doesn't encourage cooperation or corporateness uh...

01:47:58

drawing people and there is a band that i saw uh...

01:48:04

uh... came across a few years ago called arcade fire just uh...

01:48:11

kind of a rock band but they had this incredible outward enthusiastic energy to what they did and so i studied them for some years to try to to try to borrow or learn from them all that i could because they're working in the genre that we have but they're not like this they're not precious and introspective and trying to draw people into a an inner world they're proclaiming things and i think that's one of the faults of contemporary christian music is it doesn't proclaim and it's not presented in a manly way most of the time uh...

01:48:50

and so people aren't particularly men aren't at all inspired to join in and when you don't have men joining in you don't have the kids joining in that's what i've noticed as we have as uh...

01:49:05

one of the rules of thumb that uh... tim bailey gave to me when i was first given charge of the band i think he received from his father was go for the men and the women will follow and i have noticed that to be true we have aimed our music our leadership here at the fathers of god's house and gotten them to be zealous to give themselves wholeheartedly robustly to singing the lord's praises we don't have any problem getting everybody and particularly the children are just enthused as they see their fathers leading and so that's one thing that i've taken to heart and i think that distinguishes what we're doing from a lot of contemporary christian music is we try to be manly that means direct and use our voices in a uh...

01:50:05

uh... not in a kind of affected or precious way but to just try to be ourselves to be straightforward to match the message of the lyrics with our presentation that makes sense yes and uh...

01:50:18

we have dave in cumberland county pennsylvania who asks do you believe as do many involved in contemporary christian music that melodies and rhythms are neutral that sounds loaded well you hear that a lot by people who defend

01:50:43

And even like the same kind of melody, that's actually a very poor use of terminology when you describe death metal or something like that, but they will say that you can have a

01:50:57

Christian death metal song. And I've even heard Christian music where,

01:51:05

I think that's what you call it, the death metal, when the guy is screaming and you can't even really understand. Death metal, yeah.

01:51:11

Yeah, well, you can't even understand what he's saying, so how is it a Christian song? He could be singing about anything.

01:51:17

But T. David Gordon brought up an interesting fact about that. He said most people would throw out that ideology if somebody that they loved had died and all of a sudden people started playing kazoos at the funeral.

01:51:36

They would be angry, they would say, this is out of place, and it's because of something the way that the music sounds.

01:51:41

Now, obviously, if before the person died he requested that, that would be a different story. But if people just started playing kazoos, someone could easily be offended if you get where he was going with that.

01:51:53

Yeah, I do. We've actually used kazoo in our worship.

01:52:04

Not to everyone's satisfaction, mind you, but I was short a trumpet, and I had a song that I just felt needed a trumpet, and we didn't have one at that time, and so I called my buddy, my close friend here in the work of music ministry,

01:52:24

Phil Moyer, who's also in the band, and I said, Phil, do you have a kazoo? And I guess

01:52:31

I'm embarrassed to admit that. Well, by the way, I did not know that when

01:52:37

I asked that question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I realize that. But no, I don't have any problem acknowledging that there's no neutrality in the world.

01:52:48

However, and the same applies for our use of melody. A thing can be used well, and it can be abused.

01:52:57

And an abuse does not negate a use. That's a well -established principle of the

01:53:06

Christian faith or of practical Christianity. An abuse of something does not negate a proper use of it.

01:53:12

Okay, we're going to be going to your last song right now that we have time to play, and this is from Lord How Long, Psalm 6.

01:53:48

Don't rebuke me in your anger Don't destroy me in your rage

01:53:59

My bones are languishing in sorrow My heart is trapped within its cage

01:54:12

Raise me up into your mercy All my guilt and grief assuage

01:54:23

But, O Lord, how long?

01:54:29

But, O Lord, how long? Do they think of you in Sheol?

01:54:44

Do the dead declare your ways? Should breath depart my anxious body

01:54:54

Who then would sing you songs of praise?

01:55:02

Raise me up into your mercy And I will sing for all my days

01:55:13

But, O Lord, how long?

01:55:19

But, O Lord, how long? Depart from me, my enemy

01:55:31

God's terrible and strong He's rising up to shake

01:55:46

Wow, that was not supposed to end that way, brother, but something went wrong with the recording. I apologize about that.

01:55:52

Bummer. Yeah, and it actually says zero, zero, zero, so it did go to its completion as far as the attachment was concerned.

01:56:00

Okay, well, the ending of that song is unusual, so it's worth mentioning just something about it.

01:56:06

It ends with an added kind of, I don't know what to call it, a coda at the end where it just says,

01:56:14

Come, Jesus, come, come, Jesus, come, breathe your life in me. That's added to the psalm, its editorial, but as I was affected by these really powerful, desperate words of an experience of the psalmist of God of God's discipline in his life, where he even feels that God's turned its back on him and he's mourning that, that it just seemed like this was the natural right appeal to make that those who were singing the song or hearing the song would be comforted and by that appeal would be helped by it.

01:57:04

So that's something that shows that in our approach to the Psalter we do have a freer approach, which

01:57:13

I believe we're able to have because we're not exclusivists, that we're able at times to bring in other parts of Scripture to editorialize and explain and open up what the psalmist had in mind for the

01:57:29

Christian. Well, perhaps some of our exclusive psalm singers in the audience may think that that was a divinely appointed technical error that stopped the song before your editorial...

01:57:43

I'm only kidding. In fact, they all really in some way do some editorial work because how do they get the

01:57:53

English phrases to rhyme and so on? This is one of the things that Isaac Watts points out well in his essay about the improvement of psalmody.

01:58:00

I don't agree with everything that he argues. I think he over -argued his case, but he does point out that when you translate poetically and he quotes the

01:58:13

Scottish Psalter to show that they've added quite a lot of their own words.

01:58:20

Right. It's not strictly speaking a translation. Right. And we have

01:58:25

Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas who wants to know if you have now or ever will have

01:58:31

Spanish versions of these songs. Oh, good question. I would love to. We have a dear sister who is the sister of a man named

01:58:41

Claudio Molina here in our church that plays in our worship band on Sundays. He's from Argentina.

01:58:48

And his sister, Xime, has I know done at least one setting in Spanish of our songs, maybe a couple.

01:58:58

And so if we could somehow get an email, Chris, if you could somehow get that to me from our questioner.

01:59:09

Sure. Maybe forward some of those on. Sure, sure. And I want to thank you for being on the program and your website for the church anyways, clearnotebloomington .com.

01:59:20

Any other contact information? Well, we have a website for the band. It's mysoulamonglions .com.

01:59:26

Probably the easiest way, though, for people to keep up with what we're doing is on Facebook, facebook .com

01:59:33

forward slash mysoulamonglions. Thank you so much, Pastor Jody. I look forward to having you back on the program and playing more of your music.

01:59:41

And I hope to get a chance to also meet you sometime in person and perhaps hear you folks in My Soul Among Lions play.

01:59:48

I want to thank everybody who sent in questions today. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater