September 21, 2016 Show with Tim Bayly on “The Trinity Controversy & Economic Subordinationism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of September 2016.

Reformed Theology and the Need to Handle Doctrine Carefully

It is probably no mystery that I happen to be a theologically reformed Christian, a Calvinist as we have been nicknamed, or a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as the doctrines of free grace, and there are other terms as well.

Many of my guests, perhaps even most, share those views and there's something unique about those that are theologically reformed. The good thing about us is that we have a tendency to be very meticulous about doctrine.

We want to make sure that the Word of God is accurately and properly handled, that the teachings found within the pages of scriptures are exegeted accurately and in context, and we are very quick to rightly expose error when we see it.

But the downside of our meticulous nature when it comes to doctrine and theology, it seems, is that we sometimes wind up shooting our own brethren in the back over areas that are not as crucial as we may have blown them up to be, or they may be areas of the Word of God that involve more mystery than we may think.

There may be things that are not completely spelled out in the clarity that we may have wrongly concluded, and that's one of the things that we are going to talk about today with our guest Tim Bailey.

He was on yesterday, as many of you remember, if you heard the program especially. He spoke about a book that he wrote, Daddy Tried Overcoming the Failures of Fatherhood, and we really enjoyed that time together.

Today he wanted to talk about a controversy that's swirling around evangelical Christianity, and in particular amongst theologically reformed Christians, and it involves a very important and crucial matter of theology, the Trinity.

But we're going to be finding out how serious and how monumental this specific area of the Trinity is, and whether our brethren are shooting at each other in perhaps too harsh a manner when the area doesn't really call for it, at least according to our guest, I believe, and we're going to hear more about that today on Iron, Sharp, and Zion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion, pastor of Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana,.

Tim Bailey. And again, for those of our listeners who did not hear yesterday's program,.

If you could just give us a brief description of Clear Note Church.

Clear Note Church, we do have together in a brief...

Yeah, well, the only other group that I know that has that, that's actually a denomination, is the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and the Free Presbyterian Church of North America. They have both baptistic pastors and paedo-baptist pastors, and if you want to have your infants baptized or your young children that are incapable of expressing belief, if you want them baptized, they will call a pastor in their denomination who believes and practices that, and if you don't, you are not required to have your infants or children baptized, and they will baptize you by immersion as a believer by a baptistic pastor.

So, it is an unusual precedent, but it does exist. And today, you wanted to speak on the issue that has been swirling around as of late amongst especially Reformed Christians in regard to the Trinity, and I want to put all of our listeners at ease.

If you happen to be on the other side of the issue at hand, I do plan, as I typically do, I do plan to have the other side of the issue represented on the program eventually, and I always, when there is a controversial issue dividing theologically Reformed Christians, I usually try my best to have both sides represented.

In fact, I've even had a week-long dedication, actually more than a week-long dedication to eschatology where I had different representatives of each of the major views on, for their own day, to defend and define and explain their specific end times view, and I plan on doing that again, by the way, but I just wanted to let you know that I am not just airing one side of the issue on the Trinity.

Obviously, the Trinity is a vital core belief in the Christian faith. You cannot be a true Christian without believing in the Trinity. If you deny the Trinity, you're obviously not a saved individual, but there are nuances within that belief that Christians divide over, and we're going to hear more about that.

The Nature of Doctrinal Conflict and the Rise of Trinity Controversies

First of all, Tim, when did you first hear, and how did you first hear that there was a controversy to begin with, and if you want to also, I understand that you wanted to basically lay down the framework from which you are coming from in regard to brethren knowing when and where and why and how to divide over issues.

Yeah, if I can talk a little bit about the nature of doctrinal conflict in the church. Years ago, back in 92, I began, I'm Ken Taylor, I'm his son-in-law, and we're a very close family, and I was in the kitchen one day, and I saw it, and I opened it up, and I found it's Greek word, Adelphoi, was translated brothers, or no, Christians see me putting it that fontly, but it's just plain fact.

UW-Madison under a Bryn Mawr professor, and it's a faithful saying that Adelphoi means brothers, and so I was very father and brother in a lot of that time. I said, look, if you take the word Adelphoi, and you stop translating it brothers, and you begin to translate it, now that I remember, it was Christian friends.

I said, you do two things wrong. Number one, you give up the male inclusive, and that has a very purpose, and God's constantly reinforcing that, because of Adam's sin. The second thing is, many, many of the young men and women, to Matt, a number of years later, and I remember talking to, and Carl Henry said to me, you know, Tim, it's so, this should be behind doors among, and I said to Dr. Henry, I said, Dr. Henry, when has any issue ever been argued?

I said, look at all, if the Apostle Paul, and he never would have written. Dr. Henry was kind to me, and not laughing my head off. During that same time, I went to work with the Council on Biblical Manhood, and the whole purpose of the council is to oppose feminism, and when I went to work as the executive director, I remember saying to Wayne if we fight on certain Bible texts, and don't fight on the necessity of having controversy in the church, we're never going to win.

If nobody ever wants controversy in our relationship, then we have to have been a generation that there has not been attacks upon God's church, and unfortunately, those attacks come in our churches. And so, if you read in 1 Corinthians, there's a variance among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

None of us, which was my brother-in-law, see over the issue of whether or not it's faithful to remove the gender markings of Scripture. You know, in the Bible now, we have about one-third in modern Bibles, not the ESV and the NESV, but the NLT, the NIV -2011, other Bibles, say one-third.

It's gone from about 1700 down to 1100, and so either this is speaking words out of God's Word, and he says he will curse. So, how do you have a polite relationship? Now, it's really difficult, and I think the same thing is true of this battle over the Gordon Key and Roger Nicole and David Scholl,.

The students, 79 to 83 here. Just out of curiosity, would Roger Nicole have actually described.

Himself as a feminist, or just as an egalitarian? Back then, he would think I mentioned to you yesterday, when we were at Gordon-Conwell, it was a union shop for women's ordination, and they put out, the faculty put out a memo saying that anybody that didn't believe in ordination of women should not say anything that would hurt anybody's feelings that did believe in it, you know?

It was at the time of Alan Bloom's Close to the American Mind, and it really was that kind of squelching, politically correct environment. But at that time, only a feminist in his view of church, God has used women, and I remember saying to me from him, including the atonement, I said, Dr. Nicole, that's the only time I've ever heard him in any of my theology class in Orlando, and we still kept in pretty good contact.

And while he was there, he came to repudiate not just Scripture's command against women teaching and exercising authority over men in the church, from God's Father. And so, I went up to him one year at ETS, Evangelical Theological Society.

I was a member at the time, and I said to him, Dr. Nicole, and we always greeted warmly, and I said, Dr., from the Evangelical Theological Society, and he looked at me quizzically with a bit of a grin, and he said, why would that be?

And I said, well, you believe that you would have said publicly that anybody that believes in the economic subordination of the son to the father, I believe in the economic subordination of the son to the father, so I think what you need to do is file charges against me, because I'm guilty of heresy.

And he looked at me, and then he said, you know, he had the Swiss accent, he said, wait, you may not be guilty of heresy, but you are false. At the end of it, it's the economic subordination of the son to the father.

And this has been really, it has been under attack, and here's the reason of the authority. If they acknowledge, as Paul says in 1 Timothy, created first, and then even, that that's the origin of the creation order, and that authority flows from responsibility immediately, they can no longer argue, can rise above.

In other words, they're opposed to authority. They have to go to the Trinity and say that authority in the Godhead was only a function of Jesus' Incarnate State, and that from eternity past to eternity to come, there's absolutely perfect symmetry between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and there's no possibility of any economic subordination.

And that's what these men, men like Carl Truman, Liam Gallagher, and they're attacking Russ Moore, they're attacking Denny Burke, they're attacking Wayne Gruden, they're attacking his position, you know, they'll talk about things like detailed parts of it right now, but in its essence, the issue is really a question of whether or not the feminists who have been fighting against the economic subordination of the son to the father are right along.

Now, before I stop talking, let me read one verse which sort of is the locus play, and that's 1 Corinthians 15, 24, and 28. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he writes this, he says, then comes the end when he, which is Christ, delivers the kingdom to God, the Father, authority, and power, when all, then the Son himself will be subjected, things under.

Him, that God may be everything to everyone. Well, the standard understanding of the Trinity, as far as I know, is that the Trinity is the Godhead, which is composed of three co-eternal and equally powerful members of the Godhead, three persons in one being of God, and where would the economic subordination come into play with that?

Is it specifically in regard to the role of the Son in relationship to the Father, just as, for instance, we all know, who are Trinitarians, that Jesus died on Calvary and took upon himself the wrath of the Father, and he suffered and died and rose again and ascended and so on?

The Father did not do that. That does not make Jesus a lesser God and the Father a greater God, it was just a different role that Jesus had, and likewise, the Holy Spirit has unique and specific roles.

Is that.

What economic subordination is really getting at? I begin to get a little bit of role, the essence, it's not, you know, I think the word role without thinking about, you know, Jack Nicholson, okay? You know what I'm saying?

He takes on a role, he takes off a role,.

He's hired for this role. I was wondering where you were going with that.

Yeah, and I think the same thing is true when it comes to manhood and womanhood. The fact is, the husband's responsibility for his household is not a role, it's intrinsic to his manhood, because his manhood flows with his incarnate.

In Philippians 2, you know, we have a collision of roles, because one thing's a role, and then act as if we have a thought for it not to, because it's a role. From eternity past to eternity to come, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now, you know that the East and Western Church have divided over that. People want to say, well, you're making Jesus into less than equal to God the Father. If you say there's a before he came incarnate, he was sent by the Father, laying everything under him.

I remember when I was there, and I remember hearing the Lord said, it's very, very hard. Look at the way I believe that he knows. You have decided that. Now, are there any in the complementarian camp that are still.

Nonetheless opposing the view that you have, and others who share this view of.

The economic subordinationism? Depending upon which side of the bed they get up on, they're complementarian. They reject the economic subordination, or if you don't like the word subordination, lots of articles are being written arguing about what's the best word to use.

And so I try to use the word asymmetry, as opposed to symmetry. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is not just absolutely the same across the names. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Right there, you have asymmetry.

But you absolutely don't have inequality, because it was when Jesus said that God was his Father that the Jews went ballistic, and said he makes himself equal to God. And yet, everybody knows that the world is asymmetrical.

So yeah, there are lots of complementarians who are going to want to maintain mostly men in their elders, and a man in the pulpit. It's unusual because Tim Keller identifies himself as a complementarian, but he always has women in his elders meetings, and he's had women in his pulpit.

And this is just... When I was the Executive Director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, we had people who were on our board of reference who believed that women were okay to preach as long as they didn't, as long as the elders are there.

That's the position of J .I. Packer and a number of people. It might not be. It's a Malone in the complementarian campus to what different people believe about.

Well, we have to go to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions, and more with Tim Bailey after these messages, so don't go away. I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to tell you about a conference he and I are going.

To. Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV, and occasional guest on Chris's show Iron Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang-up conference called the G3 conference, celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

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Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org. Hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689. 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, we're discussing a very controversial issue today over a matter that divides theologically Reformed Christians, and I'm assuming others as well, in regard to economic subordinationism, which is an issue involving the Trinity that there is disagreement over in regard to those holding to the Reformed faith, it seems, especially.

But there may be others in other theological camps who are also having this conflict with their brethren. And I have had, actually, men on both sides of this issue on my program many times, just not on this issue yet.

This is the first time I've ever addressed this issue. In fact, I've only learned about this issue weeks ago, I believe. So if you'd like to join us as well, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. No matter what side of the controversy you may be on, or perhaps you're on neither because you don't know anything about it or don't understand it yet, and we do already have a couple of people waiting, but we'll get to you as quickly as we can.

Eternal Sonship, Equality, and the Trinity in John

One of the things that is interesting to me is that I remember hearing about a couple of very notable theologically Reformed Christians, or Calvinistic Christians, that both you and I, we would recognize their names immediately.

And there was a time when they believed that Jesus Christ, even though he existed in eternity past, and even though he is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, he did not receive the title of Son until after his incarnation in earthly ministry.

And then these individuals, as far as I know, recanted those views of the Sonship of Christ, believing that he was eternally the Son. Now, is that touching on what you're speaking about?

As I said, I get our minds around the fact that equality has been since the French Revolution, where you have liberty, but equality has almost been a steamroller over every distinction that God has made.

And I think the thing we have to remember is that the Church's Orthodox Confession of the Trinity, and this is important in the time of the Arian Controversy, it's all... Now, you said earlier something about Jesus, and then you talk about when Jesus became the Son.

I think that, and is there an order? And the egalitarian spirit of our age, and we think that.

You can't have distinction and equality. And when, as far as your knowledge of Church history is concerned, when did the first time the non-economic subordination view, the view that's opposed to what you're saying, I guess you could say symmetrical understanding of the Trinity, when did, in your opinion, or from your knowledge of history, when did that first arrive on the scene?

Because obviously you believe that your view, being biblical in your opinion,.

Is the older view. No, what I'm saying is, I'm not saying it's my view. I'm simply defending the historic Church's view that people find. People today say this, and so people say, no, it's just Bernard of Clairvaux.

If you go back and read the early Church fathers, back and read at the time of the value up there with the Trinity, destroy the consensus.

And of course, you must realize that when I use the terms, your view, considering the fact that I'm going to be having people on both sides of the issue, that's things that I have to say.

I know. Study Scripture and to take positions on it. And so in a day where everything, I just don't want to do that. He's an idiot to come up for a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, a friend of mine, and maybe being the central.

I don't think anybody who's half alive is really thinking about when he made Adam first and then Eve, and everybody wants questions in the flesh, and that Jesus only had to take on one of the issues that consistently comes up on the part of those who, back in the historic God, the Father, be the one who sent the Son.

The Son could have sent. And we heard something similar a decade or two ago when the openness theology people said, well, it wasn't very atonement for the redemption of mankind. It could have been some other way.

And any time people begin to tell me that, you know, God could have been sending His Son to die, I get it, because I think, who told you that? What commitment required you to say that God didn't send His Son?

It makes you tremble to hear people.

Could it be that those on either side are viewing the opposing views as, for instance, perhaps those against economic subordinationism are saying that your view is too close to Arianism, and those on your side are looking at the symmetrical view and saying that their views are too close to modalism?

Is there a connection there, as far as the fear that is going on with.

The differences of opinion there? Yeah, I think that's asymmetry. You know, in any battle, you have to argue, and not only this becomes more clear than it has ever been before on the part of the church's understanding of Scripture, and so I think when you bring up the issue in language, the tension and emphasis really does happen.

Don't those who believe, well, they have to,.

Those that believe in a symmetrical trinity, a symmetrical relationship between Father and Son, they have to believe there was a period, obviously, when that was not the case, when He was incarnate. At least they have to believe during that part of Jesus' existence.

That it was different. You see it so much in the Gospel of John, where again and again, you know, Jesus says, look, I'm here to obey my Father, or things like, before me, the Father's speaking, this is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased.

All of those things, any father with a son or any son of a father recognizes, even though there is fatherhood and sonship, that's the nature, incarnate. The real question is whether that, from eternity to eternity, that's the question.

In other words, whether it is in the very nature of the three members of the trinity that they have asymmetry. So you're having somebody you love who's in some order in their relationship, and that that order is not simply.

Then you can argue about what that.

Order is. No, that's quite all right. We have David in Ada, Ohio, and I think it's pronounced Ada, it's either Ada or Ada, I don't know. But he quotes Charles Haddon Spurgeon, and I guess he wants your reaction to its relevance to this discussion.

It appears to have been a matter of concern for a very long time. Even among professing Christians, while there is a great amount of religion, there is too little godliness, there is much external formalism, but too little inward acknowledgment of God, too little living on God, living with God, and relying upon God.

Hence arises the sad fact that when you enter many of our places of worship, you will certainly hear the name of God mentioned, but except in the benediction, you would scarcely know there was a trinity.

In many places dedicated to Jehovah, the name of Jesus is too often kept in the background. The Holy Spirit is almost entirely neglected, and very little is said concerning his sacred influence. Even religious men have become to a large degree godless in this age.

We sadly require more preaching regarding God, more preaching of those things which look not so much at the creature to be saved as at God, the Great One, to be extolled. My firm conviction is that in proportion, as we have more regard for the sacred Godhead, the wondrous Trinity in unity, shall we see a greater display of God's power and a more glorious manifestation of his might in our churches.

I don't know if you see an application to that quote for what we're discussing, but that's.

What our listener David in Ada, Ohio had to offer. You know, from my perspective, I never heard of any disagreement with, and so yeah, I know theology. It comes from people denying submission as much as they possibly can get away with in their church, their denomination, and then they read that into the Trinity, and I think the word judaile is translated in 6 .9 on homosexuality.

We either have an eye to the world in trying to please them and avoiding offense by taking nasty things, and that's it. It doesn't mean that we don't explain it to people and preach it, and it doesn't mean that we all.

So yeah, I think God's not just in each of this, and I read today in the world may be different from Spurgeon's time. It may be that the only person we ever talk about is Jesus, and the only doctrine we ever open our mouths about is great, and I think being our pastor, my dad used to say that he didn't want to say he was an inerritus.

He said because the inerritus are always talking about their theory of inspiration. He said what I want is I want more people who will talk about and live under the authority instead of talking to live under its authority, and I think the same thing is true of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Whether the Trinity Controversy Requires the Label of Heresy

Do you think that the symmetrical view of the Trinity is as serious as something that should require the label heresy, and are those that are opposing you using that label? When I say you, of course, I'm speaking of those that believe in economic subordinationism.

Are they using the label heresy? Is it that severe in their minds?

Heresy used by those who deny the eternal I have not heard. Now, if you were to ask me to look at the vitals, I'll say yes. Let it be intense. Let's have the people in the pews know every facet of the argument.

Let's have them go home and read their Bibles to examine who's right. You know, if you announce, as Dr. Nicole and his feminist friends and in alignment with my friend Liam Gallagher, you know, if you get up on your bully pulpit, you know, and you announce that people that adhere to the eternal order of the Trinity are heretics, like, dude, you know, I have not called them heretics, and look, they can be men in fighting, and so if they feel like it, I'll have them yell at my children that I'm a heretic and get my people to fire me, that's the reason I went up to Dr. Nicole at ETS and I said, Dr. Nicole, I want you to fire me of my being a heretic and have me removed from ETS, okay?

And the reason I was doing that is I knew Dr. Nicole didn't believe I was a heretic. You were saying that tongue-in-cheek, basically. Yeah, I mean, come on, Dr. Nicole, you love me, don't send, and so even taking past the question of our love for each other, and you know, for me to say that to Dr. Nicole is ridiculous.

The man was as erudite as any man I've ever known, he had an encyclopedic knowledge of everything he ever lectured on, but you know, when men get into a dander about things, they do pull their punches, and boy, you read the histrionics of Liam Gallagher, Liam Gallagher.

Now mind you, this is the senior minister of 10th Presbyterian Church, remember, I grew up in Philadelphia, right? This man is absolutely, when it comes to his accusing me and other people of the Trinity, of accusing us of basically being, you know, I would say wacko.

He says this, he says about us, he says, they are building their case by reinventing the doctrine of God, and are doing so without telling the Christian public what they're asking. Now, in that same piece, he quotes Calvin as if Calvin agrees with him in denying the nature of manhood and womanhood in the world, and Calvin believes the exact opposite of what Liam and I have talked quickly about.

He won't admit that he's abused Calvin. This is plain dishonor. Men are in high dungeon right now on this issue, and I say, look, I don't mind the intensity of the argument, then file charges against me in Presbyterian.

You know, get me removed from ETS. You know, otherwise, let's have the argument, let's have it publicly so that the church can weigh who has done, so let's not use bomb back and scare attack, okay?

Misreading the Trinity as Henotheism or Egalitarianism

Uh, David had another very brief quote by Spurgeon that I think applies to a misapprehension or misunderstanding of things that are being said. Spurgeon said, Ah, beloved, he who knoweth the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, as he should know them, never saith, never setteth one before another.

He is not, he is not more thankful to one than the other. That was Charles Adams Spurgeon. And there are some who might think that what you are saying, and obviously you would vehemently disagree with this, that this would become, this would be dangerously close to henotheism, that you have one supreme God amongst lesser gods, and obviously being a Trinitarian, you're not that clearly.

But how do you respond to those who have that misapprehension.

Or misunderstanding? Well, I understand the accusation. I think what I would say is that we're not putting God the Father before God the Son, and God the Father and God the Son before the Holy Spirit.

When you say putting one before the other, you're denying equality, okay? And so no father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is ever going to lift one up at the expense of the expense of the dignity of any of the other members of the Trinity.

But that begs the questions over whether or not there actually is one. And so, you know, you can use the word first, I mean, the third member of the Trinity, to what? Is that now a heretic or an equal?

It doesn't indicate that. And yet what of the things that Jesus says about his Father? What of what the Holy Spirit says in Corinthians that I read at the beginning of the hour? You know, how are we to understand these things if it is not that the Son from all eternity?

And yeah, that makes us uncomfortable if we're to defend the equality of the Trinity, Son from all eternity, but this is a mystery. This is the Trinity, and we have to adhere to biblical language. We can't run a steamroller of egalitarianism over the doctrine of the Trinity as it's revealed in Scripture and in the Church, and I'm telling man and woman, and it doesn't matter how much we hate distinction.

God in his Word has made distinctions from the very beginning, and there are distinctions in the Trinity, and equality should not destroy.

Distinction. And I want to thank you so much for being on the program again, brother. I look forward to having you back, and for those of you who want to look up the website for Clearnote Church, it's clearnote .org, also clearnotebloomington .com, clearnotebloomington .com.

Chris, can I do one thing, which is to direct people to an excellent summary of the issue?

Yes, definitely.

It's on baylyblog .com, B-A-Y-L-Y, B-L-O-G, baylyblog .com, and go on there and search for Stephen, S-P-E-B-E-N, Boyer, B-O-Y-E-R, Contending for Nicene Trinity, written back in 2009, and it really does clarify.

Great, and coming up next, we're going to have the Assistant Pastor of Worship and Liturgy at Clearnote Church in Bloomington, Jody Killingsworth, who will be on after this station break. But thanks a lot, Tim, we look forward to having you back soon.

Thank you, Chris, I appreciate it.

God bless. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Jody Killingsworth, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we are going to be right back after these words from our sponsors.

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