Imam Sayeed

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:13

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:33

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:39

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

00:44

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

00:50

Here is James white And good afternoon.

00:55

Good morning Whatever time it is morning here in Westbury, New York, and I'm coming to you live

01:02

From the East Coast. We're going to once again attempt to do the dividing line via Skype and I realize that that means that once a while, it's gonna start to do the max headroom thing

01:14

But let's not worry too much about that Better to do that then nothing at all.

01:20

I suppose I was rushing to try to get hold of something and It looks like has seen king of graphics has come through with it very very quickly

01:31

For me and so I'm gonna see if I can play this. I haven't even saved the file actually it just appeared in my my mailbox here and I was

01:45

I was just looking at the King James only website of the church that had done

01:54

The book burning back a couple of weeks ago. I had talked about a little bit on the website and One of the members of my church had sent me a link to the video which

02:05

I was not able to download before the program Started because I just didn't have enough for bandwidth to get it to get it down that quickly

02:12

I'll get it after the program But as I was on the website music was playing and that's extremely

02:20

Shall we say? Annoying but be that as it may Music was playing and all of a sudden.

02:28

I I heard this song I'm being told by some fellow by the of Harold leak or leaky.

02:36

I'm not sure which And it's called the bogus

02:41

Bible blues and this is playing in the background as you're as you're doing things on this website, and so I asked me to grab it and 20 seconds prior to the program this email came in and it has a little play button on it so we're gonna take a shot at it and We'll see if we can even understand it,

03:05

I just want to see if we can play the the bogus Bible blues

03:19

Of course that's happened a few times But this young fella when he got saved he was advised to start reading his

03:26

Bible But he said I don't have a Bible The fellow that one of the Lord said well you need to get you want he said well, where do

03:33

I get one? He said well in a religious bookstore have Bible for sale. Just go to religious bookstore.

03:40

Tell him you want to buy a Bible So the young fella not knowing any better than to do it he just went out of the book to do it and he got in a real mess and come home to the bogus

03:49

Bible blues and Here's his testimony He kinda went down to the bookstore

05:19

You just stick to good news for modern man, he said I took the second verse

05:25

Well, he told me how

06:30

In chat

06:59

Well Some of the some of the comments in the chats channel playing that absolutely

07:14

Classic one of which was well, I got it. I got a rollback. I got a rollback for this one

07:23

My DNA is atrophying My DNA is atrophying that is that is

07:34

That is that is really really good and someone else mentioned the heretical dancing Well, there you go

07:43

If you want to if you want to get a copy of that for yourself you you might want to Go on over and and catch that.

07:51

Yeah Anyway, it was quite deep quite the experience. Well try to move on to some serious things, but when

08:00

I When I heard that just a while ago, I just had to share it with you because I knew that Everyone who listens to this program has just such a highly developed sense of humor

08:10

Actually a couple of you don't we notice in some of the emails that we get

08:17

Maybe Maybe you won't like that but be that as it may a quick report yesterday,

08:23

I drove up to upstate New York and Dividing line listeners are everywhere.

08:29

Here. We are in upstate, New York And we actually had folks show up outside of the folks that are at this particular location from the area

08:39

For the presentation I did on the reliability of the text in New Testament who listened to the dividing line.

08:45

It's it's amazing and That's why you're gonna hear that little sound as I get email

08:52

Didn't turn that off before the program started. It's not overly a bad bills. So It'll just give you an idea how many emails

08:59

I get. Yeah, as I may we had a great time up there despite the four hours plus drug

09:06

Bing especially when it's I Well, you just know how New York traffic is. Let me tell you something

09:14

If you live anywhere but in New York City be thankful for the drivers in your area

09:20

Because once you get here all sanity and rationality is thrown out the window

09:25

When it comes to driving in New York, these people are absolutely crazy it is

09:33

Absolutely unreal but be as it may the debate went very well on Saturday evening as we expected because we were not able to do as much of the advertising as we wanted to do because of what happened with iron sharpens iron and things like that and the fact that My my dialogue partner

09:54

Imam Sayyid Was literally the fourth person we had talked to and only like 10 days out from from the debate

10:02

That really didn't give us a whole lot of opportunity to to really push it. We still had a good group there in Queens and Had a very good dialogue.

10:11

All of it is up I know that the second video the sound did not process correctly on YouTube It was okay in what

10:21

I sent to YouTube, but it did not process correctly. So I Just about half an hour ago

10:28

Managed to get the a new version of that up. It should be processed by now

10:34

I would assume and I've replaced the link on our website, so you should be able to get to that now and it should have the proper information the proper audio

10:46

Attached to it now, so you should be able to watch the entirety of the debate if you're wondering why?

10:55

The first section is so much darker than the second and third that was because they found where the lights were

11:02

During the break. I kept saying, you know, it seemed a lot brighter here last time.

11:08

No, no No, this is all we've got you sure. I know it was brighter last time Well, that's all we got then halfway through on come lights.

11:15

And yeah, I was right. It was much brighter last time, but I Especially appreciated some of the brothers that came down from Trinity Reformed Baptist Church one of whom helped me with the

11:27

Flip video unit that I did remember to bring I've mentioned on the blog. I have been

11:33

Absolutely, dr. Absent -minded on this trip or at least the day before the trip when

11:38

I packed So but we did still manage to get it so that you can

11:44

Watch it and I know a number of you were listening in up until the point where my battery died because I Know it's a long story

11:54

Let's just say this has not been My most technologically advanced trip so far.

12:00

Okay, that's That's that's just simply a fact. So Anyway, it's it's available and I enjoyed the the exchange obviously

12:10

Imam Said Given that he did not even ask me any cross -examination questions at all

12:18

And In fact at one point had asked if Hamza Abdul Malik Could make some comments instead of him now that I have found very very interesting

12:28

I did want to I do want to mention this before we get to the guy sir a sermon because I do want to Spend most of the time on that today.

12:34

I I I Found it very very interesting how

12:41

Muslims here in the United States are different than Muslims in other parts of the world And what I mean by that is

12:47

Hamza Abdul Malik was the first Muslim I debated he was a Sunni at that time He has now embraced the

12:54

Quran II view Quran only he rejects the The Sunnah he rejects the

13:01

Hadith He accepts only the Quran And as a result, he believes that the the

13:08

Shahada a confession of faith that that Muslims make is shirk He was telling me that The prayers that they do or not the prayers of the

13:20

Quran Actually says you should be engaged in etc. Etc. So He's he's as opposed to Sunni Islam as I think you could be and yet Both in Norfolk What was that March of 08 something like that?

13:39

I think was March of 08 And now here in New York Sunni Muslims are willing to Embrace him and to utilize him as long as it's arguing against Christianity That would be a little bit like me being in a debate with someone and asking a

14:00

Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim or a Mormon to Help me out because they've studied the position of the person that I am

14:09

Responding to I Really find that to be very very interesting.

14:15

You wouldn't see that happening If Islam was not the small minority that it is remember

14:22

Care is always attempting to inflate the numbers of Muslims in the United States.

14:28

There is only about 2 to 2 .3 million Muslims the United States not the seven to nine that they like to put out there

14:36

But I just don't think you'd see that happening if there were larger communities

14:41

But it is interesting the the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I guess is how that ends up working

14:48

So anyway, it was it was good time and then Sunday Ministering the various churches here

14:56

This evening if you would pray for me in about seven hours. I will be meeting with a former

15:02

Southern Baptist Who is in the RCIA classes becoming a

15:09

Roman Catholic he is a film student making a film out of New York University on conversion to the

15:16

Roman Catholic Church and My guess is I'm going to ask him if this is the case.

15:21

My guess is that his Professor Suggested that it would be good to get another perspective and So I have been asked to Do an interview for this film on conversion to Roman Catholicism and obviously from the other side from why someone who would

15:45

Say that it's not what you should be doing to convert to Roman Catholicism And so we will be meeting fairly late this evening

15:53

At a church here in the area to shoot that footage. So if you would pray for clarity of thought and expression

16:01

As we engage in that particular interview, that would be a good thing. And then tomorrow evening We will be doing the

16:09

New Testament presentation again Hopefully, I'll have a little video to add to it to expand it just a little bit

16:15

I've always wanted to add a certain part of the ermine debate to this particular presentation, but we will be doing this presentation at New High Park Baptist Church and We had a group of Ahmadi Muslims come to the debate in Queens very nice folks

16:33

We may get to do some type of a dialogue with them next year And when they heard that I would be presenting on that subject on Wednesday evening

16:43

They indicated they were going to cancel their normal meeting time and come to the church to hear my presentation

16:48

And I hope they do. I really really hope they do. I think they would find it to be very Useful and challenging and enlightening etc, etc

16:57

So I hope that they will be there tomorrow evening and then we'll be headed back on Thursday Might be able to do the dividing line

17:06

Thursday afternoon all depends Obviously if flights are late if there's delays, you know a lot of things could happen, but we'll try to let you know and Hopefully be able to get it done on Thursday It all depends because I will only just arrived in Phoenix a little bit before that.

17:24

So we'll see how it works out so with that I have fired up the

17:34

My goodness I have normally I have a 20 -inch screen to my left and Then a 17 -inch screen in front of me on the laptop

17:43

When I travel I have a 15 -inch screen and everything's all On top of itself sort of and since I run parallels on my

17:52

Mac I've got you know, the Windows stuff on top of the Mac stuff and just stuff all over the place like that So it gets a little crowded on this this tiny little screen, but there it is.

18:05

We found We found the Geisler sermon now So Rich was telling me that he did not feel that the quality was super good, but hopefully is understandable and starting back up again right at the point where Norm Geisler enunciates that that tremendously widely accepted rule of exegesis and that is all means all and that's all all means and of course

18:35

We had last time discussed the fact that That is not only not a rule of exegesis, but it is so blatantly false on its face

18:47

So easily refuted that it it definitely leaves us shocked

18:55

That someone of dr. Geisler's character and training

19:01

Would actually in a sermon tell people that this is a rule of Exegesis that all means all and that's all all means because we know that all is normally modified by some term that actually limits

19:13

The meaning of the term so let's listen again To dr. Geisler's statements as we press forward in our examination

19:32

That all means if it says Desires to be saved if he meant that he only desired some people to be saved guess what he would have said

19:45

God people The word is there in Greek and in every language

19:51

It doesn't say some It says all and all means all and that's all that all means

20:00

Turn over to another verse in 2nd Peter chapter 3 and Peter is making it very clear

20:13

That God wants everybody to be saved 2nd Peter 3 not

20:19

Now I just stopped once again. I know there are some people who listen to the program who?

20:25

Have not read the Potter's freedom Or listen to the series we did in response to dr.

20:31

Geisler when his book first came out But I would just remind everyone that this sermon was preached after the

20:40

Potter's freedom came out and That means that the entire chapter that I offered in that book on Matthew 23 37 for a 72 4 and now 2nd

20:51

Peter 3 9 called the big 3 Would have been knowable

20:56

So dr. Geisler, I remain Convinced this day the dr.

21:02

Geisler has never read the Potter's freedom I Know that he continues to give this sermon in various places, but I I do not believe that he has ever read the

21:13

Potter's freedom I believe that the appendix that was included in the second edition of chosen but free was written by his

21:21

Undergraduate students and that is the only explanation I can come up with For the

21:27

Just how bad that particular appendix is How filled with with basic fundamental errors of reading?

21:36

citation logic and reason It just could not have come from Norman Geisler's pen.

21:42

And so as we go to 2nd Peter 3 9 the exegesis that I offered the context the fact that I illustrated that What he just said this is what

21:54

Peter Peter wants everyone to know that God wants everyone to say that's not what Peter's talking about That's not the context if you start at 2nd

22:00

Peter 3 1 and you read through 2 3 9 That's not what he's talking about.

22:06

He's talking about the second coming to parousia So you've already established an improper context and yet what's what's he gonna do?

22:15

He's going to talk about context here in a moment. It's Interesting The church there and he's talking about the last days people who are saying where is the promise of his coming and who are unbelievers

22:34

Who are perishing and so forth and in verse 9? He says the Lord is not slack concerning his promises some men count slackness, but is long -suffering toward us

22:46

Not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

22:53

Now I ask you very simply how many people does God want to be saved according to this verse?

23:01

Some people just elect or does God really want everybody to be saved? very

23:08

Clearly he wants everybody in the world to be saved and if they aren't saved

23:14

What is the reason? because they perceived but didn't receive they

23:20

Knew it was true, but they refused to accept the truth

23:26

Christ came unto his own, but they were unwilling to Receive him now a couple of things

23:37

I'm not going to go back through everything in 2nd Peter 3 9. We've done it many many many times before He said a patient toward us it's a big patient toward Actually come to repentance the all of course is defined by the you to which the address is being made

23:56

I think it's important to understand that And so he hasn't dealt with with the text.

24:04

He did mention. You know the coming of Christ at least But he very very quickly just passes over the text and never

24:11

Traces the pronouns back to find out who the you is because the all is all of you

24:18

You cannot extend the all beyond that that rule all means all that's all mean

24:25

Is is bogus it is a violation of the most basic elements of language?

24:31

And the all is modifying the you who does he trace that back No, he doesn't even give us the you he uses us so and then in in passing he leaps out of this text and He just there in in passing.

24:49

He didn't really tell you where it was but he Makes reference to a passage from John 1 as I recall in fact let me

24:58

Let me just back it up here just a second so we can see again. What what it was he said there

25:04

Let's listen again, and if they aren't saved. What is the reason because they?

25:11

perceived but didn't receive they Knew it was true, but they refused to accept the truth

25:21

Christ came unto his own, but they were unwilling to Receive him now there there you have the citation which would be verse 11 of John chapter 1

25:36

He came to his own and those who were his own did not receive him well.

25:42

Who were they? Who who is who is the own? Who is his own here?

25:48

He's talking about his own people. He's talking about the rejection of the Jews It and yet Geisler just takes that and expands it out to this this general statement

26:00

And applies it elsewhere Again I don't understand what allows people who when they're talking about the resurrection or about the authority of scripture

26:11

I mean dr. Geisler has done great work in the field of inerrancy and things like that But he doesn't utilize this kind of interpretation and exegesis when he addresses those issues, but when it comes this one issue the well

26:28

The the tradition blinders are on and at maximum power turn over to first John the next book chapter 2

26:38

Nothing could be clear My little children verse 1 nothing could be clear

26:45

My little children verse 1 I write these things to you that you may not sin if anyone sins

26:51

We have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous get this and He himself is the satisfaction

27:02

Propitiation means satisfaction for our sins and not for ours only but for those of the whole world

27:09

Whose sins did Christ die for just ours? Just the elect or for those of the whole world now notice the

27:21

The attempt to make a text say something that the text doesn't say first of all you

27:27

Don't deal overly well with the meaning propitiation

27:33

Satisfaction the offering of atonement And of course the question that we always ask is well did he or didn't he?

27:45

Did he provide? True atonement or did he not remember?

27:50

Dr. Geisler says that the death of Jesus makes men savable But it saves no one

27:58

That needs to be kept in mind. It may all men savable, but it saved no one and So what he's saying now is well

28:09

Who then is this all about who is who's who's in reference here? But when you look at what first John 2 is saying again whole world

28:19

Jews and Gentiles Yes Jesus is a propitiation for sins for Jews But for Gentiles as well because he has made men from every tribe tongue people and nation

28:32

To be a kingdom and priest unto his God. That is the message of Revelation chapter 5

28:37

We're go ahead and take our regular break and we already have one phone caller and we'll continue on looking as well

28:43

Dr. Geisler sermon will be right back Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources pastors

29:22

You will appreciate the phrase matching tool which will allow you to find all of the verses containing Phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation

29:31

Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope book or chapter

29:38

Plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences scholars your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your

29:51

Computer as well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available

29:56

I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program

30:01

This is the program that runs 24 -7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when

30:07

I engage in Debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text for over 15 years

30:14

Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth

30:22

Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate

30:33

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

30:39

Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

30:45

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

30:58

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

31:04

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

31:10

Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

31:20

This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

31:28

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

31:35

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

31:42

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

31:49

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

31:59

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

32:09

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

32:19

Support Alpha Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

32:26

Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line

32:35

There goes our break halfway through already. I want to continue. I know we've got a car online

32:41

We'll get to that question out of Exodus as we can But I want to continue with the dr

32:48

Geisler first because once we take the break we almost never get a chance to get back and I want to make some

32:53

Some progress here. So we continue on with his comments on this issue from 1st

32:59

John 2 to No, no, we don't again, it would help if dr.

33:13

Geisler would actually read reformed theology before commenting on it, but Generally the understanding of world here is the same world expressed in Revelation 5 the same world in John 11

33:24

Jews and Gentiles all together I'm not aware of anyone who says Christian world

33:30

Personally, but you know, there might be somebody out there, but it would be good if dr Geisler be a little more accurate this point, but the fact is dr.

33:37

Geisler does not respect reformed people on this this topic and Therefore just doesn't really take the time to listen carefully to what they're saying

33:54

More than that How do you interpret what somebody means by a word you look at the context?

34:01

You look at the broader context look down to verse 15 in the same chapter Where John begins to define what he means by world

34:09

He couldn't possibly mean Christian world because he says do not love the world

34:16

Well, please know something Once again guys are saying well, we're gonna we're going to assume that John means the same thing by cosmos in First John 2 15 that he does the first John 2 2.

34:30

I don't know anybody who believes that I Don't know anybody who believes that I mean, this is this is where you know,

34:37

Norman Geisler is not an exegete He's never been an exegete. I'm sorry, but that's just the fact and And The reality is that the world that is not loved and first John 2 15 is not the same world the first John 2 2 at All there are over a dozen uses of cosmos and John between the

34:58

Gospels and the epistles Again he knows the terminology to use

35:04

But he himself does not apply it in a meaningful fashion. Does that mean that we're not supposed to love the elect?

35:13

Absolutely not then he defines world verse 16 All that's in the world the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes the pride of life

35:21

Is not of the father but is of the world so Jesus died for the lust of life.

35:31

Oh My was there no one sitting in this Calvary Chapel going, ah, excuse me,

35:37

I think you miss something there I Couldn't mean the elect because he puts the world as opposed to God The elect are not those opposed to God Actually according to the

35:55

Bible all of the elect walk in opposition to God until God in his grace

36:02

Takes out their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh. So Again, dr.

36:08

Geisler's confusion on these issues is rampant and Really difficult to understand but it's it's there beginning to end a

36:20

New Testament teaches indeed the whole Bible that God so loved the world

36:26

And for the extreme Calvinist to say in L limited atonement that Christ died only for some people

36:35

That Christ did not die for all people is one contrary to the

36:40

Bible and two Is contrary to the nature of God as love one of the things the

36:48

Bible teaches us about God Is that he is all? loving

36:54

Even the five -point Calvinist believes that God is all just That he's so just that he can't look on sin, it's impossible for God to lie

37:05

Habakkuk 1 13 says he can't even look with approval on sin Hebrews 6 18 says it's impossible for him to utter falsehoods

37:16

Titus 1 2 God who cannot lie It's 3 4 but God be true every man a liar the

37:24

Bible says that there's some things that God just can't do His nature will not allow him

37:29

His nature will not allow him to overlook sin. He is all just and he must punish because of that Bible also says that God by nature is love

37:42

Now if God by nature is all just Because he is just and he must be all just then

37:51

God by nature must be all loving because he is love First John 4 16

37:56

God is love that he has love Or he has love for some if he is all loving and marked us down.

38:07

He must love all But must he love all in the exact same way

38:14

Let's use the same analogy was just used God's holiness and justice was presented before us.

38:20

Let's think about that for just a minute Does God extend mercy to undeserving people he most certainly does

38:29

Does he for example withhold his justice? And bring it to bear upon many sinners for many many decades at a time sometimes for literally hundreds of years when it comes to an entire people look at the

38:42

Amorites for example before the Israelite army destroyed So, but is it also true that sometimes he brings his justice to bear it really against someone so He is not he does not

38:55

Exercise the exact same kind of justice to each and every person in the same way

39:02

Some people I mean think of the the rich wealthy evil person who promotes godlessness in the land might live to 89 years

39:10

Of age and then he needs God's justice whereas another person might be cut off in his youth in his evil behavior and So God has the freedom

39:23

To exercise his justice in the way that brings him the most glory

39:29

Does that not then mean that God has? Freedom and personhood in his love as well

39:37

Will dr. Geisler Struggle with the issue of God's love The fact that very clearly his love is expressed to some in a way that it is not expressed to others or will he just skip over that part to create an omnibenevolence that turns

39:57

God's love into peanut butter love it just gets spread all over the place and never actually accomplishes

40:03

Anything let's find out You cannot be all loving and just love some

40:11

One night a friend of mine invited an extreme Calvinist and myself to a dinner party

40:18

After we had a lovely meal The discussion for the evening was the five points of Calvinism.

40:26

He represented the by the way I've never been invited It would it would be an interesting experience to be sure

40:37

Traditional view and I represented what is called the moderate view also known as Arminian ism

40:45

I've been describing to you Near the end of the discussion when we were on this point.

40:51

I said to him Let's call him Pastor John. I said pastor

40:57

Probably John Gerstner. What do you think? I have a feeling might be Tell me this

41:04

Does God love everybody or does he only love the elect

41:11

And without batting an eyelash. He said God only loves some people

41:18

You know, I just wonder who this was why not name names? I named names. I think it's good to name names

41:24

It's good thing We're talking about God's truth because you know, God's truth is not the personal property or play thing of anybody

41:31

Which is why one comment the Norman Geisler once made to a radio host he was going on about me and he

41:42

He said that I had stuck my nose into stuff that wasn't my business and writing the Potter's Freedom because this was between him and R .C.

41:51

Sproul as if the doctrines of grace the very nature of the gospel could be between Norman Geisler and anybody else

42:01

I pray God I would never Embrace that kind of a view that I could think along those particular lines

42:11

The question should have been does God it's God's love non -differentiated that is

42:17

Did God demonstrate a love for Israel that he did not demonstrate for any other nation?

42:22

Well the answer that's obvious, isn't it they see that doesn't accomplish the rhetorical goals that dr

42:29

Geisler has in this sermon. The question should be is there redeeming love is the love between God the triune

42:38

God and the elect who are united with Christ and Will be united with Christ for all of eternity.

42:47

Is that love any different? Then the love God shows for the reprobate in not bringing judgment upon them immediately in this life

42:58

Because you must understand that the argument that's being presented here if it were taken to its logical conclusion

43:05

And since these folks won't debate We can't push it to its logical conclusion in their presence to see how they would answer

43:12

But the logical conclusion would be this That the love that God has for the elect in Eternity those united with Christ and Think of the perfection of the union that will be ours with Christ in our glorified state no longer in any way diminished by sin and failure

43:38

Limitations in those ways The love that he will have for us is absolutely the same the exact same kind of love

43:49

That he will have for those who stand upon the parapets of hell screaming their hatred of him in eternity

43:57

That's the only way you can handle this kind of undifferentiated on the benevolence is

44:04

To assert that very thing and if you're not willing to assert that very thing then you have to explain how you can avoid it and You must be able to grant to God special kinds of love

44:18

Jesus loved the beloved disciple in a special way Men are to love their wives in a way that is different than how they love anybody else's wives

44:30

We can differentiate in love Then obviously God has that same capacity and if and if someone at a dinner party

44:42

Were to ask me that question. I would have to raise these issues. I don't know who would answer the way that he is reporting

44:49

It was answered But I certainly would answer in a very different way the way that I just did

44:57

Which is again, I think why I don't get invited to those dinner parties He just loves the elect

45:04

Now I'm trying to be kind in my reaction here insult

45:15

Said that would be true, but mr. Geisler may I suggest to you that the logical ramifications of your position are an insult to the nature of God because you

45:26

Wish to posit a love of God that actually saves no one you present a atonement

45:36

That only makes men savable and saves no one you present Jesus dying shedding his blood for people that in his omniscience he knows

45:47

Will never be saved You present a love of God that is impotent in the face of the almighty power of the will of man and I suggest to you that not only is that gross and biblical, but it is likewise insults to the biblical presentation of the sovereignty power holiness justice and love of God That is an insult to the nature.

46:17

Just love some people is to make Arbitrary is to make

46:24

God Capricious is to make God more like an Arabian chick

46:29

Then the God of Scripture. I think you meant chic Um chick is a grazer

46:37

But I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything either Obviously, dr. Geisler likes to attempt to make a connection between the reformed understanding of God's sovereignty and the

46:53

Islamic perspective on Allah's sovereignty as well Now, of course, that's a form of the genetic fallacy, but laying that aside for just a moment

47:02

Once again, we just point out not that we this is the first time we've done so but That connection is fallacious and I think though.

47:14

Dr. Geisler co -authored a book with someone who is a former

47:19

Muslim and Hence has some expertise in the area. I think that I know as much in this field as he does and And Probably have more exposure to actual

47:33

Islamic sources than he does on this subject and the difference between the

47:40

Islamic concept of Qatar the the idea of predestination in Providence and The Christian perspective is not its extent but its basis you see

47:52

Allah is transcendent and Allah would never enter into his own creation and Therefore Allah Is indeed capricious for there is no particular purpose that he's pursuing the

48:10

Bible says that God's purposes are personal that is his own self glorification and Therefore he enters into relationship as A part of his

48:22

Providence and his interaction with his own creation It is personal not merely that of fate as One of the fundamental differences between the

48:32

Christian concept of God's sovereignty and the Islamic concept of God's sovereignty Is to make

48:38

God more like the God of the Quran whom Omar? I am the famous Persian poet said just all a checkerboard of night and days where destiny

48:50

With men as pieces place hither and thither Checks and mates and slaves and one by one back in the closet place

49:02

That is not no definitely is not and I'm glad that that's not we believe

49:10

And I feel sorry for anyone who? Feels under any kind of obligation to make it sound like that is the

49:18

God that we believe in Who is so Sovereign contrary to his very nature if he wishes if he wants

49:33

He can just love some people and hate other people Bible by his very nature must love all

49:45

You cannot be all loving and not love all people

49:52

That leads us to a very Important illustration one that my traditional

49:59

Calvinist friends don't like But they don't really know what to do with except to make it more powerful illustration than I did to begin with I Have a feeling

50:11

It's been a while since I listened to this Spend almost six months as we started this, but I have a feeling this is the boys in the pond

50:20

Illustration, I'm not sure of that Let's see if it is here is what a five -point

50:25

Calvinist really believes He really believes that it's like this a farmer had a pond

50:32

And the neighborhood boys were want to swim there and he didn't want them to drown so he put up a fence and put up a sign

50:39

Don't swim One day he was driving back in his field three neighborhood boys were in a pond

50:46

Drowning the farmer pulled up on his tractor He folded his arms

50:55

He pointed up to the sign and said the sign says Don't trespass don't swim here.

51:02

You're swimming here. You're drowning you deserve to drown He folded his arms and watched all three boys drown

51:10

Now would anyone say that that was a loving three boys drown?

51:17

Now would anyone say that that was a loving person? I think that That's precisely what the five -point

51:27

Calvinist believes God can and could have done Because God gave his law

51:34

We disobeyed his law and we all deserve to go to hell God didn't have to try to save anyone.

51:42

Did you catch that? I Think I'll stop here because I do have to get to a caller before they have the program

51:48

But did you catch that it sounds to me like what? Dr. Geisler is saying. Is that the nature of God?

51:55

Would have precluded him from ever being simply just now. I would say that it was

52:01

God's intention to Demonstrate the entire range of his attributes and that therefore he chooses to demonstrate both his justice and holiness as Well as his mercy and his love that sounds to me like Geisler's acts of saying

52:19

God is constrained Constrained so if he has to do it in that way, that's what it sounded like So what we'll do next time maybe on Thursday if I get in all depends is

52:32

I'll pick up there. We'll replay Story because it is good to go through Geisler's illustration has been refuted many times by numerous people, but he just keeps using it because I just don't think that there's

52:46

He doesn't listen to the reputations that are offered of him So we're at exactly 44 minutes in there, so I'll pick up at that point as well

52:55

Let's go ahead and take our phone call and talk with Steven in California Well, dr.

53:01

Wait Hello. Um, I was wondering I have a friend that's we're kind of going back and forth in Discussion and date

53:10

I guess you'd say um, and he brought up the subject of Exodus 32 and God Moses intrigued in as Kind of intercedes for the people of Israel and God changes his mind

53:25

And What is what is he trying to argue based upon that that is he an open theist?

53:32

No No, he's an Armenian So as an

53:37

Arminian, does he not think that God has a full knowledge of the future? Yeah He does think that God has full knowledge of the future

53:49

He's kind of wishy -washy on that area Well, if if see if he if he doesn't think that God has full knowledge of the future

53:56

Then he's an open theist if he does Then the text in Exodus 32 is just as much a question for him as it is for you

54:05

Let me read it. So folks can see what's what's going on here. This is a situation where Moses is interceding for the the people of God verse 9 says the

54:18

Lord said to Moses I've seen this people and behold They are an obstinate people Now that let me alone that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them and I will make you of you

54:27

A great nation and then Moses responds by saying that Moses intrigued the Lord is God and said

54:33

Oh Lord Why does your anger burn against your people whom you have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power with a mighty hand?

54:38

Why should the Egyptians speak saying with evil intent? He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them in the face of the earth

54:45

Turn from your burning anger and change your mind about doing harm to your people Remember Abraham Isaac and Israel your servants to whom you swore by yourself and said to them

54:53

I'll multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens and of all and all this land of which I have spoken

54:59

I will give to your descendants and they shall inherit it forever verse 14 So Yahweh changed his mind about the harm which he said he would do to his people then

55:08

Moses turned and went down to the Mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand tablets were written on both sides.

55:14

They're written on one side and the other so Here is Moses on the mountain. God sees the sinfulness of the people

55:20

He says I'll destroy them and make a great people of yourself now if he's an Arminian if he's an open theist, then he can consistently argue that I didn't see this was coming and So he's shocked and dismayed and So he's just sort of making things up as he goes along if he's an

55:37

Arminian Historical Arminian then he has to answer the same question because God already knew from eternity past that the people would sin in this way and therefore the idea that He can somehow

55:52

Use this to his advantage doesn't make any sense So I'm not sure which position he's taking but the thing to remember in exegeting this text and allowing it to speak for itself

56:03

Is to remember that God had a purpose in putting Moses in the position that he put Moses into That is when when

56:11

God said to Moses up there in verse 10, and I will make of you a great nation he is placing before Moses a test and To anyone it would be great to be the big name in a great nation

56:26

And so in essence, he's testing Moses will Moses intercede for the people will most is

56:31

Moses prepared to do What God has called him to do and Moses passes the test.

56:38

He intercedes for the people he seeks to Act as an intercessor To remind

56:45

God of his promises as if God had forgotten them Which is what some people actually try to present this as as if most this is a better guy than God no,

56:55

God's God's purpose here is changing Moses and so he

57:02

Announces this wrath against them Moses intercedes for them And so God announces to Moses that he is not going to do what he had said

57:11

He was going to do. What is the purpose in this is this supposed to teach us that God's just bumbling through time

57:19

And he's a mean nasty guy and we actually have a better disposition than him. Of course not He's dealing with Moses just as he dealt with Abraham in regards to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah he's brain putting them in a position where they in essence stand in the breach and Intercede for the people that are going to treat them very badly

57:41

As far as Moses is concerned. This is early on. They're gonna treat him very badly But he yet continues to function as the one who stands between God and them so It is it is

57:55

I think a gross misuse of Scripture to miss the fact that God can have a purpose in putting people in certain situations and As a result testing them trying them changing that Moses here is being tested

58:11

Moses here is being changed I can guarantee you for all the rest of his life

58:17

He remembered that moment on the mountain when he stood in the place of his people

58:22

That made him a greater leader of those individuals that joined him to them In a way that could not have been done in the other way

58:30

And so that is what I would remind him of in regards to Exodus 32 14 All right.

58:36

Okay Thank you very much And I hear the music in the background and that means we are done with the program for today

58:43

Like I said, I'll try to do Thursday, but it all depends on airlines and traveling all the rest that stuff

58:49

But if not, then we'll see you next week in either way. Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

59:41

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:48

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks