A Brief Remark About Catholic Apologetics International, then Calls: Infantile Faith,

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This is the Dividing Line. Be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line.

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My name is indeed James White. We are live this evening on The Dividing Line, Thursday evening, 5 p .m.,

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at the only place where it really counts what time it is anyways. And you can participate in the program tonight, 877 -753 -3341.

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We didn't have any audience participation on Tuesday morning. That was because if you missed that particular

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Dividing Line, we had, as our special guests, David King and Bill Webster, and even

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Rich Pierce got in the act from the other side of the wall there. And we discussed recent events at Catholic Apologetics International.

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We'll have a little bit more to say about that in a few moments. If you just were listening on Tuesday morning, or you have caught the archives since then, and you have some things to say, maybe some questions to ask, some comments to make concerning the subject that we raised on Tuesday, then

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I would encourage you to get in early today at 877 -753 -3341, or open phones.

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You can bring up other issues. Of course, there are some issues that aren't going to get you very far, but hey, you can try at 877 -753 -3341.

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Let me mention something. Many of you have been listening to the

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Dividing Line. You know that on December 5th, we are going to, December 6th, oh, good grief, sometime early in December, we are going on an apologetics cruise.

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I'll be doing all the speaking on that particular cruise. It is on the

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Holland American's Zondam, which is a beautiful, beautiful ship, very elegant and very, very nice.

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The rates, we've got them locked in. We have the lowest rates that anyone can possibly get on that ship for.

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However, we only have a limited number of cabins. Now, obviously, there are some who have signed up who aren't going to end up making it and things like that.

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I was told that we have exactly one category of cabins left, one fare rate left.

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We still have some cabins left. Now, I know that some individuals, I know some right now that are already on the list, but they aren't going to be able to make it.

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It's not a panic situation, but I would encourage you very strongly.

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We've got an incredible group of folks going. We've got a bunch of young folks going this time. I think there's going to be a lot of excitement.

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I think they're going to have a great time, bunches and bunches and bunches of folks that I know.

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Folks that you've heard on this program before are going to be on this particular cruise.

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If you've been thinking about it, please give Mike O 'Fallon a call, drop him an email.

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His contact information is on our website. Just click on the cruise information there. You can see the various cabins and so on and so forth.

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I'm not even sure which category we currently still have available, but I would assume if there's enough interest that probably there will eventually be something like a waiting list and things like that.

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Just don't put yourself in that situation where it's going to be up in the air and you're not certain exactly what's going to be going on.

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Go ahead and get in touch with Mike O 'Fallon. Do not worry about the fact that it doesn't sound real good right now.

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A bunch of my friends don't sound real good right now. Simon called me and his voice is terrible and Mike's, I didn't even know who he was calling.

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There seems to be something going around. It almost makes one wonder about those black helicopters at times. But anyway,

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I do hope you will take the time to take a look at this and take a look at the information on the

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Zondon, what we're going to be doing. I'm thinking about doing some stuff.

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We're getting together, maybe even by voice chat with people who are going on the cruise to do some pre -cruise study in essence.

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So I can't do that if you're not signed up. So take time to do that.

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Take time to look at it. Consider it. It would be a great Christmas present. You guys who are thinking about getting your wife a brand new turbo -powered vacuum cleaner for Christmas, trust me, this is probably going to be a lot better.

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I really think, in fact, we know of one fellow up in, well, he's sort of in Canada but actually sort of out on an island in the

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Atlantic Ocean someplace where it's very cold and it's very strange out there.

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His wife wants to go and he's just sort of dragging his feet and all.

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He just needs to understand that you got to do romantic stuff once in a while too, guys.

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I know it's hard to get this message across but you got to do that kind of thing.

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This is a very romantic trip and it's very perfect for that kind of thing. It's going to be a lot of fun.

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So get some good fellowship in and study in the process. You know that you're right,

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Rich. I don't think they charge extra for Furbies. There may be a limit. In fact, on this boat,

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I'm sure there is because it's a very classy ship. But I don't think they charge.

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I think you can bring $5, $10, $15, $20 before you actually have to start paying extra. So anyway, it'll be a lot of fun.

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So you all make sure to take advantage of that. Now those of you who were with us last week, yeah,

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I'm not sure how you'd fit a Furby in a life jacket but I don't think they make life jackets for something like a

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Furby. But last week, we addressed a very serious topic. That's why we can say some unserious things here.

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We addressed the accusations, libelous accusations, the groundless accusations that were being made specifically against David King, William Webster, and then by extension,

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Nova Scotia is a peninsula. Okay, all right, whatever. Then by extension to Richard Pierce and even silly

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Brit Colin Smith got painted a little bit with the accusations.

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Colin was said to be the person who removed the bad words from the three -volume

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Holy Scripture set published in October of 2001.

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This was a rather laughable attempt to, in essence, attack this work rather than dealing with its actual argumentation.

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And it's a long story. If you have not heard last week, then what

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I'm going to read today probably isn't going to make a whole lot of sense to you. But there have been a lot of developments since Tuesday morning and one of the most interesting developments has been in regards to CAI and those associated or once associated with CAI, Catholic Apologetics International, the apostolate of Roberts and Jenis.

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I have not and maybe someone in the channel has checked today.

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I've been running around, had to pick the daughter up from school and had other things going on. I have not looked at the

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CAI website today. The last that I heard everything in reference to this particular subject, okay, it's gone.

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It's disappeared. The offensive terminology used in the title, as cute as it was, thank you, is gone.

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The Lion King is gone. The David King and the deformation deception, tried to get a little alliteration going there.

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All of that has simply disappeared. Now we don't expect that it's going to stay that way, but it is currently not there.

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There was supposed to have been a long interview posted on Sunday evening. That did not happen and then

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Tuesday morning, we discussed these issues. We discussed the identity of Mr. X and all the rest of that stuff and as a result, there have been some developments.

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One of the developments that took place very shortly after all this was the individual who was presenting, actually wrote the very brief teaser article that appeared on the

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CAI website is a young man, at least he looks like a young man from the picture on the website.

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I don't know his actual age, but he is a recent convert to Roman Catholicism and his name is

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Jacob Michael and Mr. Michael was the primary person with whom we were dialoguing about various claims and issues and things like that and after,

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I guess, listening to the program, I had some dialogue with him, came into the chat channel a little bit.

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I believe it was Wednesday morning, an article or a statement was posted on the web board of New Testament Research Ministries, Eric Svensson's ministry, where this discussion had first begun, in essence, with Jacob Michael and this article, he sent it to me.

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He wanted me to read this on the program this evening.

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Now I know that since this was sent to me,

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Mr. Michael posted another statement, in essence, on that web board and if I recall reading it correctly, it sort of expanded upon this and corrected any misapprehensions.

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I guess Mr. St. Genes had read it, it had been forwarded to him, he was very angry about it and so there is a further expansion of this.

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Now that wasn't sent to me, I wasn't asked to read that, so if Mr. Jacob Michael is listening and he'd like me to read an extended version of this, then feel free to send it to me and I will attempt to do so in the time that we have on the program today.

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But this is all that was sent to me, I have not been sent anything that said, please do not read that or read something other than that, so I'll do what

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I promised to do and read this particular version of it that was sent to me.

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This is from Jacob Michael. On Tuesday night, I personally spoke with both

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Mr. King and Mr. Webster over the phone to express my sincere apologies for the fiasco that took place over the last week and more.

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Both men were extremely gracious in accepting my apologies. I asked both men if there was anything I could do above and beyond the phone call and the public retraction that is forthcoming at CAI to make reparation.

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While Mr. Webster, since he is not really involved much with internet apologetics, was content with just the phone call,

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Mr. King asked that I make a statement at the web forum hosted at NTRMIN and I was happy to do so.

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The evidence that I had on Mr. King and Mr. Webster was circumstantial and as I told Mr. King on the phone,

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I, quote, wouldn't have taken it to the bank, end quote. The strongest evidence I have relates to patristic citations in the published books, but as I related to Dr.

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White on Monday in a private message, the published books were precisely what I should have been focusing on, not the other personal, more sensational aspects.

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I have also decided to resign my position at CAI and take a break from apologetics for a short time. I cite an allegorical application of 2

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Samuel 10, 1 through 5 as my reason. I still want to engage Mr. King and Mr. Webster in a meaningful critique of their books, but this will either have to wait until I return to the apologetics world or we will have to engage each other in other arenas, such as web forums and emails.

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I am pleased that both men have expressed their desire and willingness to interact with me in this manner in the future. Again, I offer my public apology to Mr.

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King and Mr. Webster and I thank them for their already gracious acceptance of that apology signed by Jacob Michael and so I said that I would be glad to read that especially in light of the fact that he had not been available to be on the program when we discussed this issue last

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Tuesday and so I have read that. If there is something more that Mr. Michael would like me to say or some expansions on that,

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I know that one thing I did read in his statement at NTRMIN was

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Mr. St. Genes was upset because he thought that that statement sounded like CAI was going to retract something and it is only

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Jacob Michael doing that and he did make sure that everyone understood that he was speaking only for himself and not for CAI since he has resigned his position there.

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I do recall that much anyways as far as the expansion on what was said. I commend

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Jacob Michael for taking the high road and for recognizing that the information that was being given to him was inaccurate and at the very least the whole issue was not handled, not approached in the proper way, that the only way to truly honor truth and to honor the sources being examined is to deal with the issues presented therein and that the assertions that were made by Mr.

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X were groundless and unverifiable and all the rest of those things and in fact easily contradicted.

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So that is the current state of things. We have not seen, we expect to see something eventually on the

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CAI website. Richard Pierce has asked Mr. St. Genes to apologize and to publish a retraction in regards to the things that appeared there.

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I do not think we have heard anything back from him directly about that particular issue. So we will see what develops.

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I do not know what is going to happen. In fact, I know a lot of folks are sitting around going,

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I wonder what is going to appear. There was a, I do not know what you would call it, a blurb, an advertisement on the

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CAI website starting back in October, November of 2001, coming soon a rebuttal of the

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Holy Scripture series by Webster and King and that was there for a few months and it just disappeared. Nothing ever materialized.

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It just was there. And I am not picking on Mr. St. Genes for that. There have been many times

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I wanted to do all sorts of things and did not have the time to do so or a book, a project would come up or whatever else it might be.

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But as Webster and King mentioned last week, there has yet to be a meaningful interaction with the actual argumentation anywhere in the

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Roman Catholic responses to this particular subject. So we continue to look for that kind of information coming in.

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877 -753 -3341, I got to admit, I will mention this before we start taking our calls because I think we may actually be full up on the lines right now already.

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I was transfixed today. In fact, I will admit

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I was emotionally moved as I watched Fox News covering

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President George Bush going out to the Abraham Lincoln. And in fact, I guess we are going to get done.

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Well, I do not know what time it is. I think it is 6 o 'clock our time. So I think the program is going to end right as the

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President's speech begins. And it was really exciting watching that jet land on the aircraft carrier.

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I just fell into a, I am disappearing. My headsets are going wah,

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I have just disappeared into na -na land. Now I cannot hear myself at all. Just I do not know what is going on, but I just became very, very muddy and muddled and it happened over the course of about 10 seconds.

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So now I cannot hear myself at all. So I cannot take any phone calls right now because I cannot hear anything. But I will keep talking until we figure out what got bumped and what got changed because I can still barely hear myself at all through my headsets.

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Anyway, it was very exciting to see that and I can just imagine what it was like, that is getting a little bit better, to be that pilot.

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You know, this guy probably had thousands and thousands of carrier landings under his belt, but that was probably, he probably had not been that nervous landing a plane on a carrier for a long, long, long, long time.

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So I thought that was pretty great. I keep losing it. As soon as it goes up, it just goes back down again. So I am not sure what the technical difficulty is.

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I am not doing anything on this end. So something is going on over there, I guess. So you may need to do a, that is not loud, at least

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I can hear myself. Still feel muddied, but now I can hear myself. You must have hit something or you have to do a technical adjustment, one of those things with a hammer where you just, you know, smash the top of the equipment, that works.

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Now it is actually too loud. But anyway, let us try taking some phone calls and see if the technical aspects work themselves out as we attempt to talk with these folks.

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Let us start with Larry in Kentucky. Larry, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you.

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How are you doing, sir? I am doing good. What can we do for you today? Okay, I have got a question about the supposed age of accountability and how would, of course, you know,

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I do not believe that personally that there is an age of accountability, but those that argue that, how can they argue that and how does a baby, how can they respond in faith and be a baby, you know, as a baby and do that as an infant and how does a baby, how does it work for them?

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Well, it sounds like two questions there. The first is on the age of accountability concept, which a lot of people hold and I held it once until I realized it was really only there for, as a prop for libertarian free will concepts, but that actually really gets us into all sorts of discussions concerning the issue of those who die in infancy and those who do not have mental capacities and all sorts of things like that, which can be very, very long and drawn out and extremely emotional.

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As far as how they substantiate it, they generally go to the passage about the child before he knows to do good or evil and connect that with some concept of God's justice and things like that,

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I would assume. I haven't read a defense of the age of accountability in quite some time, not really an issue that I focus a whole lot on, but it sounded like the second statement that you were making was a little bit different because you were talking about how can they have faith as an infant, were you talking about, for example, the

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Lutheran idea of infantile faith or I'm not sure what you're asking there. Well, we're saved by grace through faith alone.

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I guess God, our faith is a gift of God, so I guess I'm saying is that your personal belief that faith is a gift of God, of course, and of course babies are saved because in God's grace he extends faith to those, you know, to an infant or someone who's mentally handicapped.

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Well, repentance is a gift of God, too, but I don't think it's an issue of trying to fit or cram the unusual instances of infants and those who lack mental capacity into a normative category whereby you create some concept of infantile faith.

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I have a problem with all forms of quote -unquote infantile faith, whether it be the

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Lutheran form or various other reformed forms of infantile faith, simply because faith always has an object and that object requires a certain level of knowledge and understanding, and so I don't buy into the infantile faith aspects of these things, and so I wouldn't say that an infant who is saved in infancy is saved upon some sort of miraculous granting of some sort of faith and repentance when, you know, to an infant child or something like that.

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God can save those individuals as he sees fit. That's not the issue. The issue of by grace alone through faith alone has to do with those that the

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Bible addresses, and the fact of the matter is the Bible doesn't address this issue of infants and those who lack mental capacity in a direct fashion, and so we're dealing with we're dealing with implications and extrapolations from that point.

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So no, I wouldn't go so far as to say, well, you know, if he's going to save someone, he's going to do it by granting to infants some level of faith or something like that.

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Can I ask you one more quick question? Sure. Okay, this is about water baptism and this five -step plan

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I've been seeing a lot with Christian churches and Church of Christ. How do you view those,

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I guess, those points of view? Like I said, from Kentucky, there's a lot of Christian churches, a lot of Church of Christ, and I've actually been involved with a lot of Christians who attend those churches, and you look at their statement of belief, and it's belief, repentance, baptism.

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Of course, you know, you have to be dipped in the water, obedient.

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They include a lot of things, and I think at the end it'll say something along the lines of, and these things in and of themselves are not sufficient for salvation.

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Well, I know the more historic, quote -unquote, Christian churches, denominationally, were into baptism regeneration.

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I know many of them today are not, but certainly the Church of Christ perspective certainly is, and yeah, you would be in that area of the

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Bible Belt where there is a very strong emphasis upon the idea of baptism regeneration and the necessity of that kind of activity.

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I'm not sure what you're asking, though. I mean, obviously, I view that as a false teaching, as something outside the orthodoxy, so on and so forth.

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It is a doctrine that leads to a complete control of God's grace through the activities of men, and is almost always very much associated with a legalistic perspective, an accomplishment perspective, as far as the gospel is concerned.

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So, I'm not sure what you're asking outside of... I think you've answered it. Okay, all right.

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Okay, thanks a lot. God bless. 877 -753 -3341.

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Someone quoted from the London Confession in regards to infants, and I was noticing, as one of our brilliant individuals and channel pointed out very quickly, that in fact,

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I was looking at this particular section just this past week, and I'm looking in...

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Let me see here. Let me scroll back here a second. Nothing like not giving a reference, huh?

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Yep, no reference given, so that doesn't help a whole lot to be able to find it. The modern language version of the 1689

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Confession, here it is, yeah. This is Chapter 10, Section 3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ the

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Spirit, who works when and where and how he pleases. The same is true of all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called to the preaching of the gospel.

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And that was the exception, except it wasn't quite that way that was posted in channel.

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And someone asked if I took exception to that, and I said no. Elect infants dying in infancy doesn't say that all infants dying in infancy are elect.

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That's, of course, the issue there. 877 -753 -3341.

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Let's talk with one of our regulars, Steve in New Jersey.

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How are you, Steve? How are you, Dr. White? Doing okay. Hello? Yes, sir. Okay, how are you?

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I'm doing well. That's good. How'd your hands feel this past week? Well, yeah, it's been a little bit actually distracting, to be perfectly honest with you.

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I'm sort of tired of the whole thing, if you're talking about the Catholic Apologetics International stuff. It would be very nice if people would just simply take those books and respond to them in a meaningful fashion, rather than engaging in this kind of thing.

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It truly makes one shake one's head. But anyhow, that's not what you're calling, right? No. A couple of things.

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One is a question on John 6, and it's concerning the giving of the elect to the son, and we believe that that takes place in eternity.

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Well, actually, it's... How does one explain that or get there from the giving being something before the coming in from a time aspect and getting it back into eternity?

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How would you explain that? How would you explain that the giving or defend that the giving actually takes place in eternity?

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Well, there are two things to note in John 6, 37, and in John 6, 39.

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The term giving is a present verb, all which the

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Father is giving me in John 6, 37. But in 6, 39, it is in the perfect tense, when he says that all that he has given me,

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I lose nothing raised up on the last day. Now, the issue would be twofold.

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First, in 6, 37, the giving of the Father precedes grammatically the coming of the individual, grammatically and logically.

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It's similar to saying everyone that the coach chooses will play in the game.

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The choosing of the coach is what determines the playing in the game. The same thing is true here.

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All the Father gives me will come to me. It is not the coming of the individual that determines the

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Father's giving, but vice versa. If that is the case, and then you can look at verse 39, specifically, where Jesus speaks the will of the

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Father for him. This will is expressed by the

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Father before he comes to earth. Now, I suppose a person might, for some strange reason, if they want to ignore the holistic nature of Scripture and ignore

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Ephesians and things like that, just sort of disassociate John 6 from any other discussion of election and salvation and everything else, which is what a lot of people like to do.

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They just ignore those things, or then they could make some sort of argument,

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I guess, that maybe this giving is somehow temporally related to something, I don't know what, even though I don't know anyone who would do that, that could still accept the fact that the giving of the

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Father precedes the coming of the individual. Or, you can allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves, recognize that the

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Incarnation is certainly not an afterthought, and if it was the will of the Father before the

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Incarnation, and part of the very reason for his coming, because verses 38 and 39 says, he has come to do the

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Father's will. So the Father's will pre -exists the Incarnation itself, is part and parcel of the reason for the

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Incarnation, and so if we accept the truth that the Incarnation of Christ and the entire creation itself is all part of God's eternal decree, then the giving and the identity of those given must likewise be a part of it.

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Otherwise, you have to atomize this stuff, you have to break it all up, and come up with some completely new idea that I don't know how you'd ever make a coherent case that the

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Incarnation, the purpose of the Incarnation, could be understood in John 6, 38 and 39, and yet, this not be the eternal giving of the

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Father to the Son. It's far easier to recognize that this is Jesus' description of what we see in Ephesians chapter 1, and Romans chapter 9, and so on and so forth, things like that.

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So, that's what I would invite people to do, if they're seriously trying to deal with John 6, and exegete it properly, is, alright, once we've dealt with the text properly, then what giving is being discussed here, and do we find any other references to it in Scripture?

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Would Paul's words lend anything on this in Ephesians, chosen before the foundation of the world?

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Right, that's what I was saying, is that if we want to allow the Scripture as a whole to speak, then we ask questions, is there any other place where this kind of choosing or giving is referenced in the

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Scriptures, and of course, it is right there in Ephesians 1. Also, last week,

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I was touched by the call of a young man from the University of Utah, what was his name,

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Tyson, and touched by his plight, and was also touched by the wise counsel that he received.

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Frequently, people don't get wise counsel in those situations. And there's a church here in New Jersey, and if he's listening,

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I want to encourage him, the church here in New Jersey is that's praying for him. Good.

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Well good, I know that there are folks up there who listen to this, and hopefully they will be able to hear this, and if he's not listening, they'll be able to communicate that to him.

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And in your Sunday School class for Harmony of the Gospels, what was the harmony that you used there?

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It's the one published by the United Bible Societies, and mine's actually sitting in the back of my car at the moment, but it's available.

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The main reason we got it, well, there's a couple reasons that we can actually look at, but the main reason that we got it was

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I have the Greek version of it that is broken up into the exact same sections. It's in BibleWorks.

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BibleWorks has the same Auland Harmony, A -L -A -N -D.

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And then the main thing was it's a hardback large book for 14 bucks, which is really good because our church purchased them, purchased a whole bunch of them, we just gave them out to the

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Sunday School class. So it was one of the most affordable ones that we could get as well.

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I think it uses the RSV, which I don't like, but I'm not using that for the text reasons.

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I'm using it for the breakdown that it has of the various passages.

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So it works out real well. Okay. All right. Well, thank you very much. I hope to see you on the 29th.

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Oh, yes, on the 20... Oh, yes, up at the debate with Mitch Pacwa.

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Yes, that'll be 29th at the... What do they call it? Why did

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I just forget where in the world I'm going? It's a townhouse. Townhouse. Huntington Townhouse. New Huntington Station. Yeah, the new

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Huntington Station. There you go. Huntington Townhouse. Been there who knows how many times. But yeah, that's where we're going to be.

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And it's going to be an interesting debate. And I think it's going to be probably one of the most well -attended debates we've had.

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Because to my understanding, Mitchell Pacwa is promoting this on his website.

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And he's going to be traveling with an EWTN video crew. And so I think the folks in the

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Long Island area, anyways, are certainly going to be aware of the fact that's going to be taking place. So that always helps. I will be there.

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And if I can hang around long enough, I'll try to introduce myself to you. Please do so.

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And just make sure you don't do what some people have done. Some folks will come up to me. And I'm very frequently rather focused at a debate.

35:00

And they'll say things like, well, the funniest one was when someone who will remain nameless until he hears this came up to me.

35:09

And he said, hey, I'm the one who has a nick and channel. It's a hop -box legomena. Now, a hop -box legomena is a term that appears only one time in the

35:17

New Testament. So here I am in the middle of doing a bunch of stuff. And he says, my nick and channel only appears one time in the

35:25

New Testament, as if that somehow was supposed to mean something to me. And I had no idea who he was until much later.

35:31

So make sure to say, hi, I'm Steve from New Jersey. I call the dividing line,

35:37

OK? I will do that. All righty. You take care. Thank you very much. Bye -bye. All right.

35:42

I think we forgot the break there. I didn't even notice what time it was. Are we going to be...

35:49

I hear the music. That means we're going to go ahead and take one. And your phone calls right after this. Now, the pilgrim's progress is not an easy way.

36:17

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the word of God, James White, in his book,

36:22

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

36:30

Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

36:44

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .aomin

36:53

.org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free?

36:59

A New Cult? Secularism? False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

37:07

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

37:15

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

37:21

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defect of the very gospel itself.

37:29

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

37:36

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

37:41

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

37:47

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at www .aomin

37:54

.org. More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together.

37:59

They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils. They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements.

38:07

And many Evangelicals are finding the history, tradition, and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

38:13

This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

38:20

Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book,

38:28

The Roman Catholic Controversy, is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture, the papacy, the mass, purgatorian indulgences, and Marian doctrine.

38:38

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself that cannot be ignored.

38:46

Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

38:52

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

39:03

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the

39:10

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning

39:16

Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45. Evening services are at 6 .30

39:23

p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805

39:31

North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.

39:38

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at www .prbc

39:45

.org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

40:22

Welcome back to Dividing Line. My name is James White. We are having some technical difficulties, so if it all of a sudden sounds like I'm rolling my seat back and disappearing,

40:31

I'm not. We don't know exactly why my microphone is experiencing fits of weariness.

40:40

It needs some electronic geritol here or something. It's not doing too well.

40:45

Okay, I've got the hammer. Hang on. There you go. That is sort of how

40:51

Rich fixes things. If you hear any pounding or anything like that, just ignore it.

40:57

This is a professional program and we do things on a professional basis. 877 -753 -3341.

41:06

I just avoided calling

41:12

Smith to explain to us how he deletes bad words. I'm not sure if he's going to call and tell us how you delete bad words, but we will see if he does that.

41:22

Until then, I think we only have one caller online at the moment. That means there's plenty of room available for you.

41:29

If you would like to call 877 -753 -3341, let's go ahead and talk with Johnny in California.

41:40

Hi, Johnny. How are you, James? I'm doing pretty good. Nice talking to you again. It's been a long time.

41:45

It's been a while. Well, first before I ask you a question,

41:50

I actually wanted to throw a riddle at you, a Christian riddle, if I may. I'm waiting.

41:57

All right. The riddle is this. My uncle made it up. It's funny. Believe me, you'll like it. It says, why does

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God use evil to accomplish his will in the world?

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This is a riddle? Yes. And I'm supposed to say, why?

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Because he has nothing else to work with. Okay.

42:31

All right. Okay. I'm not going to comment on the theological aspects of that particular one.

42:41

Everybody's been impressed with that one. My uncle, Raul, I think you did a good one there. Okay.

42:46

I actually wanted to ask you a question about purgatory. If I may, I have a

42:52

Oneness Apostle friend with me that we occasionally talk theology and he has three questions about the

42:57

Trinity and so forth. And he says he'd like to speak with you after I ask my question. Is that possible?

43:04

I guess. All right. The doctrine of purgatory,

43:10

I remember when I spoke with you and Mr. Bill Webster some time ago, we were talking about how the doctrine of purgatory was believed by some of the early church fathers, but you can't really trace it back to others because the whole idea of prayer for the dead was more for something different than what is understood, like the

43:30

Saddhus Passio and things like that. But one of the things that you mentioned was that when

43:36

Augustine spoke of purgatory, he spoke of it more in a theoretical sense. Now, my question is,

43:43

I actually, by the way, I found a quote from Augustine in his, I don't know how to pronounce the book, but I think it's called the

43:48

Incaridion or something like that. And in one of the chapters, he speaks of whether there be a place of purgation or fire is something that should be inquired.

44:03

And it sounded kind of maybe -ish. Oh, he certainly had no developed doctrine. I mean, this is just a speculation on his part, the idea that he's transmitting some apostolic tradition is,

44:18

I don't think, would even be taken seriously by any serious Catholic historians today. This is why

44:26

Cardinal Newman had to come up with the development hypothesis, because it's just simply does not, you know, history does not allow for this kind of linear, partum -partum idea of the passing on of apostolic tradition that becomes the dogmas, the

44:46

Roman Catholic Church. It just doesn't work. Well, basically what my question is around is because the concept of some purgation, and as I was reading in certain snippets here and there of Church Fathers, like in the ancient

44:59

Christian commentary series, I read some quotes from early Church Fathers commenting on 1

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Corinthians 3, like I believe it was Ambrosius or Chrysostom, and obviously

45:12

Augustine holding to some kind of purgation. Was there a diversity of view?

45:17

Were there Church Fathers that said, no, Augustine's wrong on this, I don't think, but there's enough information to believe this kind of a thing?

45:23

Well, there was about a thousand years before anybody wanted to say Augustine was wrong about anything, but you're assuming that there was a tremendous amount of interaction between these writers, and in a couple of instances there were.

45:43

I mean, Jerome and Augustine had discussions about canon issues and things like that, but it wasn't like today.

45:51

It wasn't like someone, it wasn't like Dave Hunt writes a book against Calvinism, and six months later

46:00

I'm finishing up a book with him arguing about that issue.

46:05

It didn't work that way in the ancient world, so you don't have that kind of, oh, hey, there's this view and there's that view, and you didn't have any four views of eschatology books being published in the early

46:18

Church. That just wasn't something that took place, so if you're looking for that kind of thing, you're not really going to find it.

46:26

But again, the idea of purgatory and the idea of purgation at that period up until the time of Gregory was very vague, and it was basically based upon an inadequate understanding of the atonement and especially the issue of the sacrifice of Christ and things like that.

46:46

It was primarily due to a lack of exegetical accuracy especially if you look at most of these early

46:56

Church Fathers could not handle the scriptures in the original languages, so that was really, it was a growing idea, but it had not yet come into any type of dogmatic expression.

47:09

In fact, it would not do so until the 13th century. Okay, well, here's my friend. He's a

47:15

Wonderson Apostle, as I said before. His name is Logan, and he has a question for you on the doctrine of the

47:21

Trinity. Okie dokie. Praise the

47:26

Lord, Mr. White. Hi. How are you doing today? Doing all right. Okay, my question is,

47:32

I've run into a couple Trinitarians that, you know, some say that there's three different gods, and some say there's three distinct persons, and this and this and that, and I'm kind of confused about it, and the scripture that my brother brought up is 1

47:48

John 5, verse 7, which is stated, For there be that very record in heaven, the

47:54

Father, the Word being Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

48:00

Now, what are your thoughts as far as that goes? Well, first of all,

48:07

I would be disappointed if anyone who was at least a meaningful, quote -unquote,

48:12

Trinitarian would say that there are two gods. Such a person has no concept of what they're talking about, and has no idea what they're saying.

48:20

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one true and eternal being of God that is shared by three co -equal and co -eternal persons, the

48:28

Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and the issue with Oneness Pentecostalism, the doctrine of the Trinity, is fairly easy to focus on, and that is, in Oneness theology, the

48:40

Son is normally, and I'm not sure exactly which stream of this you adhere to, but in the majority of Oneness writers, the

48:50

Son is the human nature of Christ, and the Father is the deity aspect of Christ, so that Christ becomes two persons.

49:01

He is the Father and the Son, the Father being his deity, the Son being his human nature, which is born in Bethlehem, and that's generally how it's understood.

49:13

Now, the real issue then, the biblical question for an advocate of Oneness theology is, does the

49:21

Bible teach that the Son has eternally existed as a divine person, or does it teach the

49:29

Son came into existence at his birth in Bethlehem? And I would direct you to a number of passages where the

49:38

Lord Jesus himself makes it very clear that he, as the Son, existed eternally in the presence of the

49:46

Father, not as an idea, not as just something hoped for in the future, but that there was the

49:54

Jesus before the Incarnation, before his birth in Bethlehem, as a divine person, acted as a divine person.

50:02

That would be the issue, and that I would direct you to John 1 .1, John 17 .5,

50:08

Philippians 2 .5 -11, for passages that clearly... Yeah, I'm familiar with those scriptures, because John had shown them to me numerous times.

50:17

Me being a Oneness, I've kind of questioned that topic of theology, because, like you were just telling me, a lot of Trinitarians, they've asked me questions such as, okay, if there's only one

50:38

God in three forms, then how can Jesus Christ pray to himself? Well, when he's praying to his

50:45

Father. That is one of the... I think it's certainly an issue that I have identified in Oneness teaching over the years, that is one of the weakest areas, is attempting to explain the prayers of Jesus, because you basically have to view this as his human nature praying to his divine nature.

51:08

The problem being, it is in that very human nature that Jesus says in John 17, glorify me with the glory which

51:16

I had in your presence before the world was. Well, his human nature did not exist in the presence of the

51:22

Father before the world was, and so very extreme measures have to be taken.

51:28

Well, the Father had the idea of the human nature with him, and I'm sorry, that's just not how you would understand what

51:37

Jesus is saying. That's why I'm not really relying on my pastor's teaching.

51:43

If I want to learn about a certain subject, I got to do it on my own, do my own research such as Johnny has done.

51:50

Well, I'm sure Johnny can direct you to some very good sources. I'm sure he probably mentioned the fact that the passage that you raised when you first came on the line, 1

52:04

John 5, 7, it's called the Comma Johannium. It is a text that is not a part of the

52:12

Greek manuscript tradition, and it actually comes from the Latin, and that in modern translations such as the one

52:19

I've worked on, the New American Standard Bible, that it is not there because the textual evidence is very strongly against it.

52:28

So, if someone's quoting that to you, they probably were the same folks who were saying there's two gods, so then they're not going to help you out a whole lot,

52:37

I'm afraid. So, I'm sure Johnny can get you some good, you know, keep directing you to some good resources there.

52:43

I'll talk to him about it. That was just my main question. If there's any way possible,

52:50

Brother James, just recently I went to the hospital because I was having problems with my foot, and they told me that my foot was infected, and so I'm having to walk around in crutches for a while.

53:03

If you can, just keep me in your prayers that God would pour the spirit of healing upon me and deliver me from any kind of pain or iniquities that creep up on me.

53:16

Well, Logan, there's a lot of folks listening to us right now, and I'm sure they will not only pray for your health and your stamina during this recovery, but also that the

53:28

Lord would continue to give you a hunger for his truth and direct you to a proper understanding of who he is and things like that.

53:37

So, thanks very much for calling, Logan. Not a problem. Like I tell Johnny, any friend of Johnny's is a friend of mine.

53:44

Any son of God is a brother of mine. All right. Okay, thanks a lot,

53:50

Logan. All right, bye -bye. All right, well, that's an interesting call.

53:56

Thanks, Johnny. From patristic discussions in Augustan purgatory to the doctrine of the

54:04

Trinity. Nothing like needing a neck brace to follow the...

54:10

I love it. All right, let's go ahead and talk to Dave in Kentucky on the

54:18

Dividing Line. Hi, Dave. Hey, Dr. White. How you doing? I had a follow -up question from the last guy. I was talking about the

54:24

Christian churches and churches of Christ and their denial of salvation by grace through faith alone and their insistence that one must be immersed in baptism in water to be saved.

54:33

And my question was just, can we consider people that deny salvation by grace through faith alone to be brothers in Christ, especially in light of Galatians 1, 8, and 9, that anybody that brings you another gospel is to be accursed or anathema?

54:49

Yeah, obviously, I don't think that such a position is a

54:55

Christian position. It's not a biblical position. I do make a distinction between a person that those that Paul discusses in Galatians 1, he says they desire to pervert the gospel.

55:10

And so I do try to make a distinction between the one who desires to pervert the gospel, and I've certainly run into them, and those who are simply deceived by a false gospel.

55:22

And I think there is a culpability difference between a person who is merely repeating a tradition that they have been given and a person who knows the truth and purposefully perverts and twists that truth.

55:38

It doesn't change the fact that neither one of them have the true gospel, but I think on the level of culpability, it certainly does.

55:46

And it does then raise the issue, is it possible for an individual who has been born again to experience a period of deception or something like that?

55:57

I don't know that you can on the gospel. I think you can on a lot of other things, but I don't know that the Lord would allow that whatsoever on the gospel.

56:04

So when it comes to that particular issue, I think that that can be a very strong indication to be used by godly men and women to ask questions concerning whether a person is truly in Christ or not.

56:17

But if you're a regular listener, you'll know that I think the first thing we have to do is identify whether a system is biblically accurate or not, and then work with issues concerning individuals and their knowledge, how much they know of that system, their standing in that system, things like that.

56:37

I'm concerned about the fact that as I dialogue with people fairly regularly, there is,

56:43

I think, an unhealthy rush to get past really recognizing what's wrong with the system and why it's wrong and getting into arguing about a particular individual and his standing before God and things like that.

56:59

I think we need to be very, very quick on the system and the theology and the teaching and a good bit slower on making the application to an individual simply because, well, we are very liable to derive some sort of pleasure from blasting an individual and we get some sort of a sensationalistic kick out of that.

57:25

I think it's far more important to be able to very clearly explain why a system is wrong and why that is not what the gospel teaches and what's important about the gospel, so on and so forth, and that's seemingly where a lot of folks miss the boat.

57:41

So I just try to be very careful, make sure people recognize what we're talking about here is the nature of the gospel, and then once we understand what the gospel is all about, then we can say, and you know, a person who holds this doesn't seem to understand what grace is and therefore probably isn't a

57:55

Christian themselves, and so we need to speak to them in such a way as to warn them about the deception that has been given to them.

58:04

I think that at least gives us a proper attitude in how we approach folks. Yeah, and I wasn't necessarily addressing any specific individual, but here in Kentucky especially, the

58:14

Christian churches are huge. In fact, the largest church in the state of Kentucky, Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, has

58:21

I think some 20 ,000 members. I think it's the third largest church in the United States, and right on their website they deny that faith is enough to secure salvation.

58:33

And I've talked to so many other people that have, you know, even affirmed the truth that to dismiss that is no big deal or a minor point of doctrine.

58:41

I'm like, that's another gospel. Indeed. And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of apologetic material out there against these

58:52

Christian churches slash churches of Christ. Well, I know, I know, I know. Very prevalent. Yeah, I know, Dave, there is some.

58:58

It's the older stuff, but because a lot of them have stopped, you know, pulled back from that. But we're out of time.