Emir Caner and the Continued Cover Up

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White I'm thinking about starting off seeing Oh Canada for Carla Rolfe the

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Canadian But I guess I won't do that because I really don't know all the words I'm sure she does she probably has him tattooed on her bicep or something like that.

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But anyways, welcome to Welcome to the dividing line today Don't poke the host in the eye right as he's starting a a webcast or you get yourself in a lot of trouble

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You'd think she'd know that what Oh Canada tattooed on a bicep. That's a

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Very small very small print very very small print Anyway, hey,

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I this is this is interesting. Okay, this is interesting. I was working on side

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I've gotten almost like the other day because I'm working on travel stuff and different trips and responding to emails and doing a lot of stuff and trying to figure out how to make things work and all that kind of thing and The middle of all this the redoubtable turrets and fan texts me

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He says hey Did you notice the canner defense pieces are aren't at?

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Norman Geisler site anymore at least the URLs that we had and So he does some looking around he finds them.

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They've been moved to another sub directory and The link under the articles still links it but the link doesn't work to get you to the article

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So there's some problems on that. I tried to bring it up in Chrome. The Chrome has its own issues I like Chrome, but there's just certain websites

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Chrome. I can't go to US Airways on Chrome doesn't work It's just it doesn't work, but it's

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I have to use Safari for it but anyway He tracked him down and The link doesn't go there and the website's a bit of a mess one way or the other but he keeps looking around and Finds that the sub directory that has the

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HTML of the two Defenses of Aragon canner has the original

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Word documents in it from which the HTML's were derived and they are downloadable

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So we down he downloaded him. I download him too, but he download him first because he's smarter than I am and Then he for some reason decide to look at the properties as To you know, sometimes word tells you who wrote it or maybe when it was written or sometimes there's this thing called company name attached and in one of the three the second defense one of the three document files in the second defense of Ymir canner

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You know, this is a stuff with all the excuses in it. Really bad excuses. I mean the really really really bad excuses

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The stuff that we've pointed out is just absolutely absurdly dumb There's a company name attached

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Truett McConnell Truett McConnell as in the college that Ymir canner is the president of Interesting information

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Why would there be something? called Truett McConnell in the company name of the original document of the really really really shallowed bad excuses for Aragon canner

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Document file on Norman Geisler's website, which I can guarantee you after this program is over.

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It won't be there anymore I can guarantee you that but we've already downloaded them.

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So that doesn't really matter But if you want to go look you might have 15 minutes to get there

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Before the phones ringing But anyway What this tells me is you know,

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I've had people who've contacted me and They've had contact with Ymir canner and Ymir canner uses all these really bad excuses.

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Well, well, you know stuff about Arabic Well, sometimes he just talks real fast and he slurs his words That's not slurring words.

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He doesn't know Arabic period end of discussion and They still can't tell us and Dr.

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Ymir canner president of Truett McConnell College cannot tell us what he's 24 25 is because he knows he can't he knows he can't and so It just seems

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We have pointed out that Ymir canner has benefited from his brother's meteoric rise and Had his position as president of that college before his rather meteoric unrise

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Crash yeah, something like that So it does seem that someone

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Associated with Truett McConnell unless people just go around frequently putting Truett McConnell into the company names of documents that they work on I mean,

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I guess that might be just a really fashionable thing for people to do. I don't know But it would seem maybe we should look at all of our stuff make sure it's not in there

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That's what we should check. Yeah, I should check all my book files for the book I'm writing right now. See if someone from Truett McConnell is actually writing something like that.

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I don't know but It does seem that Ymir canner is up to his hip boots in the great evangelical cover -up and It also would seem that Norman Geiser just simply gets sent stuff and he puts it up and hey, there you go and He won't defend it, but he'll put his name on it.

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What an amazing situation for discernment ministries and people in leadership in well colleges and seminaries and so on so forth it is

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It is an amazing thing You might want to put documents out of the HTML files when you're out of those sub sub directories and you're done converting them

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What's that folders? Yes folders, whatever Hey Ralph just Ralph just Ralph just stabbed me in the kidneys

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He said I'm dr. O is writing a book. Oh Man I'd expect that from my editor.

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Yeah, they hurt clear over here. I heard that was slow. That was very low You see and you're by the way depressed you say sub directories and you're dating yourself

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What? If you've got a directory under a directory, it's a sub directory. Now these it's it's been folders since like 1998 since Windows 98 and of course forever in Mac land

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Hey Could you turn that microphone off? Thank you very much hunch. Put that microphone away.

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Thank you I hope it gets cold in there for you if you really want my opinion anyway Now by the way on Twitter earlier

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Sorry Ralph, I'm just gonna be depressed the rest of the day you it's just it's gonna take a while to recover from that On Twitter earlier today,

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I well actually last night during last night was Wednesday night and I spoke and interestingly if I haven't

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Uploaded what I spoke on because it was similar to the video and it's not sure I should put on sermon audio

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I did record it. I talked about Psalm 12 8 and and what happens when when that which is vile is honored amongst men and that's really a description of what's going on in our society these days and We were after after our devotional time the men get together and the ladies go over to another room and and we have prayer together and of course, we share prayer requests and things like that and the issue of the pastor in Iran who has been

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Condemned to death came up and I just put my hand up and I said why

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I Hope you don't mind if I complicate your prayers just a little bit here But I think it is appropriate to point out that the pastor in Iran Is an anti -trinitarian.

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He's he's a oneness advocate and everybody's like really really and And Earlier today

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I put on Twitter an article that the probe II had posted in our chat channel.

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I posted to Twitter and A lot of people are you know, appreciate the information, you know, it's

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I think it is important to know it'd be a little bit like You know

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We don't want to see stories about Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons You know in that situation

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Religious persecution is religious persecution and if the Muslims are going to persecute Heretics, they're going to persecute the

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Orthodox as well But it is somewhat different to pray for someone who is opposed to your faith and someone who is your brother there there is that fundamental connection as In that of a common faith is not there and So I had a number of people on Twitter Say well, are you saying we shouldn't pray for him?

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Of course, I never said anything of the kind as someone else I think rightly pointed out Wow, this helps my prayers even more because now

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I'll pray for his salvation as well. I Never said oh, well, we should pray less or are there you know, we shouldn't worry about this guy

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I just pointed out I would think you'd want to know something about Where this guy really is and It is true.

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You've got to understand in these nations that the cults go into those nations as well and Especially when you're you're fighting for survival each day

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To have cults coming along and constantly attacking the few sheep that you have

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Makes it all the more You know important to recognize

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You know these folks recognize there's There is a let's just put this way

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The evangelical church in Iran would not be confused by TD Jake's in the elephant room, too in that interesting

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Persecution all sudden gives you clarity of thoughts and clarity of mind And they it's not the fact that everybody just gets along and well, you know

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Persecuting you and they're persecuting me that makes us all the one the same. No, it doesn't really work that way there there has to be a

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Foundation for unity and If you're talking about worshiping a different God and if you have a different gospel that unity just isn't there and we've talked about this many many times before I've talked about my experience when

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I was involved with Operation Rescue back in the late 1980s and How I became uninvolved because it became the unspoken reality that that the gospel

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Could not be a man session, especially as it divided Protestants and Roman Catholics and You know, that's when

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I adopted my perspective that I can't put myself in a place where I can't speak the gospel

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I Can't put myself in a place where The gospel must be muted for the sake of a unity.

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Whatever that unity is. It's not a unity that I need to have let's put that way and So we need to certainly pray.

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We don't we do not want to see this evil regime Murder someone for apostasy from Islam Okay, even though it's apostasy to untruth

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I still don't want to see that happen, but we want to see him converted as well and That's what we want to do so I found that I found that interesting

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That some folks just read into my making note of it. Well, you're saying we shouldn't pray for this

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No, I'm not saying that but it does change what you're praying You know,

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I You obviously have much more of a connection to someone who confesses the same faith that you can you you confess and So anyway, by the way

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Once again, let me mention I will be heading to Hilo and Honolulu Hawaii Starting I believe it's

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March 3rd. I put the links to at least one of the And in fact,

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I realized today as I was looking at my wonderful Samsung Galaxy Nexus Which I really like, you know,

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I really like it. I can read it. It's so wonderful I'm not having to dig out reading glasses and look at this

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It's big enough. I can actually read it and lo and behold. I found all this other information in my calendar

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So I now need to know where I can go to grab the URL for the let's see Which one did I post? I posted one of the two.

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I think I posted the Honolulu material After the last dividing line. Anyways, I should be able to get it up there

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But I'll be heading to Hawaii if you're in in the islands, I'll be in Hilo and Honolulu over two weekends over in in Hawaii and I am gonna try to get some bicycle riding in while I'm there

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I'd love to I'd love to ride up a volcano or something if I can find one a nice steep one

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But So if you're driving in Hawaii Please do not hit the slow -moving old bicyclist along the side of the road.

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That would be very kind of you. Thank you very much and then Easter weekend

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Easter weekend just arranged today. I will be speaking for a

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Friday You know Easter Friday service, I think around three o 'clock and Then doing a wedding that evening finally after all these years

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I mean Susan was a was was a young lady when

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I first met her Like middle -aged and Lane finally got around to Saying let's get married

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Susan. Okay, and so they're getting married in in April Well, that makes

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Lane late. That means Lane's an old man. Now, that's that's that's the whole issue there And so no, no, no leave your hand off of the microphone.

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Stop that. You're you're just just going the wrong direction anyway, and So I'm doing the

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I'm doing the wedding ceremony and So what we've done is we've managed to work out

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I will be speaking there. I will be speaking on Friday and then on Saturday and Sunday morning only in the

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Sunday school class because well it is Easter Sunday morning and normally the pastor the church wants to speak on Easter Sunday morning so I will be speaking on apologetics and will

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Yeah, Lane just said I am currently on the center of silver yes most definitely and So I'll try to put the information up and they said they wanted to advertise it as well

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So those of you in the Cincinnati area I will be there the first weekend in April at least

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Briefly for a little while and we're very busy because I get there.

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I've got a rehearsal dinner and man keeping these people going the same direction and and giving

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Giving Lane directions. It's really tough. I mean the guy's guy's studying to be a lawyer, you know,

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I mean People like that just they don't they don't behave they don't do what they're told to do You know, they they they threaten to sue you if you tell them what to do, you know, it's it's it's gonna be rough

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It's i'm i'm really having to prepare myself mentally for this. It's going to be very very difficult. But uh,

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You know susan she's wonderful. But uh, you know this lane guy. I don't know but anyhow, um

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Be that as it may i'll be there in the first weekend in april and as I was noticing and then of course be

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Like a week and a half for that march 22nd. The debate was shabir ali in toronto So we have lots of lots of stuff going on the cambridge bible conference that weekend and And uh, you know all this foreign travel i'm doing hawaii and canada

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The 50 and 51st states Uh Just about anyways, uh

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Anyways, it'll be um, it'll be the traveling is going to start again, which means the dividing line schedules probably get all messed up because For example, the rehearsal dinner is on thursday.

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So so much for the thursday Dividing line, but uh, we'll uh, we'll see what works after all that eight seven seven seven five three three four one.

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It's out. We'll do um Yes, we will be taking calls.

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Um So, uh, eight seven seven seven five three you guys just need to be ready to rock and roll out there

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Okay, you know you are supposed to be professional webcast engineers, all right, you just need to Whatever it is

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You just just roll with it. Okay, we you guys are the experts you get paid the big bucks to do this.

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Okay uh, so Just you know, I don't know Uh, yeah dividing line live from lane's rehearsal dinner.

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That's what we could do. That would be sort of fun That would be an interesting that would be a lot of fun. They are talking about possibly webcasting the things.

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So, uh, who knows? It's the digital age man, why not, you know,

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I mean they've probably got a lot of friends and Both sides of the country that can't come. Uh, so, you know, why not?

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Why not do that? It'd be sort of sort of enjoyable eight seven seven seven five three three four one. What i'm going to do is, uh, i'm going to um

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Try to get to a little bit more in uh, watch the akati's comments since I didn't finish last time but uh

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Basically, I will break out of that when I see Uh sufficient phone calls, uh to take us the rest of the hour.

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How does that sound? So if you want to call in you've got something you'd like to ask or uh participate on eight seven seven seven five three

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Three three four one and uh, but before we get well aren't any phone calls right now because I just gave the number

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Uh, but if you you want to hook up, that's great Otherwise i'm going to jump back into my response to watch the akari pretty much where we left off Uh, because there's still some important points to to discuss here

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Remember the last thing we were discussing was the issue of jesus saying not everyone who says to me lord lord

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But he who does the will of my father in heaven and I was pointing out to mr Akari that what that means is to enter into the presence

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Of god, you need to call jesus lord And I think that's that's very very important need to keep that in mind so we will continue on Uh with that and let's can jump right back in.

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Oh, jesus son of mary Did you say to the people as deities besides allah?

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now here is some of the quranic evidence and I This is surah 5 116 uh surah ta ma 'idah ayah 116

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Is in my opinion one of the most problematic verses in all the quran for the serious muslim apologists the serious

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Muslim apologists and what I mean by serious muslim apologists is an apologist who believes That the quran is truly the word of god and it's actually true.

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It really is true. It's not it's not just something you assume Is true But that it actually accurately represents the people's talking about And so The problem is

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That surah 5 116 as you just heard it read Allah says to jesus on the day of judgment

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Did you say unto men worship me and my mother as deities and derogation of allah?

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Now this is part of surah 5 surah 5 has beginning verse 17 beginning verse 72

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Talked about do not say three do not say three do not say three It'll be better for you

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Hellfire is is the is the destination of those who say three they do not commit excess speak only of the truth

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And so if you allow surah 5 to be surah 5 and to be consistent with itself

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This is the only place in surah 5 where the three are defined for you This is the only place

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And it's allah jesus and mary Now people say well that's because there were these people who worship mary as a deity and they're called the coloridians and And there's evidence they existed.

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Well, you know there is There's no evidence. They were very large And I know of no evidence.

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They continue to exist in the days of muhammad I have no evidence that muhammad ever encountered them And if you really want to tell me

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That the quran which was written in arabic on the tablet in heaven from eternity past Even though allah knew when he was going to reveal the quran that the the quran addresses a group

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That would basically no longer exist At the time of the revelation of the quran rather than addressing

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Christianity which would coexist with islam for well so far 1400 years

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If you really want to say that that was that's what it's all about. Well, you go ahead and try to make that argument

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But i'll be i'll be telling you Um that that argument doesn't sound very strong to me

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Really doesn't make much sense to me It sounds to me like sort of scene represents the author's best understanding of what the trinity is

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And that fits very well with surah 6 101 and that fits very well with other texts in the quran to talk about allah

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Taking a wife and having a son exalted is he above having a son?

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That's certainly what akhmed believed Believed That's certainly how most muslims still understand the trinity to this day and it's a misunderstanding and at least they're honest in it

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They misunderstand it because their sacred book misunderstands it and by the way to the thousands of people in afghanistan

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Standing outside of nato bases throwing firebombs and killing themselves seven people so far last

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I read Uh Because qurans were being used to smuggle messages back and forth between prisoners

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Um were accidentally burned Um, may I point something out to you may point two things out to you first of all to my my fellow um fellow christians uh

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The armed forces united states burned Purposely all sorts of Bibles and new testaments that were sent over there

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Uh years ago. What about three years ago? I'd say about three years ago Uh for fear of offending the muslims

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They had been sent over for doing well for doing what christians are supposed to do that is proclaiming gospel and distributing this material and Our military burned them and I don't think anyone died as a result

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I don't think anyone died as a result um But now we have people stumbling over themselves, uh to apologize

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Uh for burning the quran the qurans which were used to smuggle messages back and forth between prisoners

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And hence had been written in and so on so forth And may I suggest something to you?

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May I suggest to the people throwing the firebombs in afghanistan? I'm not inviting you to come over here and throw firebombs here

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But may I may I suggest? that it is Fundamentally far more important far more important that you be able to Give a meaningful answer for why surah 5 1 16

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Misrepresents the christian faith that it is that some paper qurans were burned

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You know, I think I Hello Hello, I really really think that it's far far more important That you do that that you give an answer

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I think it's far more damaging to the quran For someone to point out that it's in error

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Than to burn it, okay, especially when it was done the way that was done and of course,

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I would like to also point out that during the um, uh Muhammad cartoon riots

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Muslims start a lot of fires in shops in muslim lands And almost every muslim owned shop in a muslim land always has in it.

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What? a quran So they were burning the qurans for crying out loud

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And it was the muslims doing it All because of cartoons. Hello This is just you know doesn't

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It doesn't really connect real well here folks think about it But uh, anyways, that's uh, what surah 5 1 16 is all about to uh, mr

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He will say exalted are you it was not for me to say that to which

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I have no right If I had said it you would have known it, you know what is in within myself

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What is within myself and I do not know what is within yourself. Indeed. It is you who is knower of the unseen you know watched the

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I I hope you understand I I present This text surah 5 1 16 and 117

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Many many times in my lectures because I think it's vitally important And after I quote surah 5 1 17

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I always put in a bible verse in the next screen

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And what I say is now here in The quran

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You have put into jesus's mouth words, he never said I do not believe why he ever said those words

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And you only believe he said those words because you believe that the quran is the word of god You don't have any historical grounds for saying that there's there's no historical evidence

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And and no not even a historical probability That jesus ever said these words and there's there's no there's no he's there's no location given for him nothing

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It's there's just nothing there So you need to understand it would it would be like someone 600 years after the quran coming up with another book of scripture

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And they make muhammad say things in their book of scripture that contradicts what he said in the quran

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How would you respond to that how would you respond? to someone

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Who would try to promote to you a book written 600 years after the quran? That quotes muhammad never says where he was when it's it's not from the hadith nothing like that There's no historical evidence that the man muhammad ever said these words

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And the words are directly contradictory To either what's said in the quran or if you don't want to go that direction at least directly contradictory to mutawatir hadith

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To hadith are absolutely unquestioned muhammad said this. How would you like that? Well, that's exactly what surah 5 1 16 is to a christian

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It's exactly what it is Because you see whoever wrote surah 5 1 16 was either purposely contradicting or I think was in utter ignorance

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Of what's found in the new testament And I think it's the utter ignorance part Because you see in the gospel of matthew chapter 11 verse 27

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Now this is a book that comes from the first century not the seventh century

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And it's placed in a context a historical context of well where Jesus lived at this time

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Jesus said these words All things have been handed over to me by my father And no one knows the son except the father and no one knows the father except the son

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And anyone to whom the son chooses to reveal? him Now I wonder watched you if you've ever read that before And how would you explain?

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That the jesus of the quran Says, I don't know what's in your heart You're the knower of the unseen.

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I'm not me. I I'm not I'm ignorant But the jesus of history the jesus of the bible

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Says all things have been handed over to be by my father my mother He refers to god

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In such a way that he calls himself the son No one knows the son except the father.

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Why is that? What would be? so Supreme and and awesome about the person the son that no one knows him except the father not even the angels in heaven

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Really know the son why because he's a divine person watched him No one knows the son except the father and no one knows the father except the son

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No one Knows the father Mr. Akhadi except the son if you want to know the father if you want to know god

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The only means by which you're going to know him is if the son reveals him to you

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That's the only way There's no Other way just as we were just looking at and when jesus said lord lord

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You need to say lord enter into the presence of god Jesus said this is eternal life.

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They may know you the only true god in jesus christ and that was sent You can't have eternal life outside of knowledge of jesus christ

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Jesus says no one knows the father Except the son and Anyone to whom the son chooses to reveal him the son

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Is the Only means of having true knowledge and therefore a true relationship with the one true

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God, and it is that exclusivity It is that uniqueness

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It is that centrality of the person of christ that islam draws back from And goes back to the old ways

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That's what the quran is all about Is a stepping back from the fullness

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Of the revelation that you have and so what a contrast mr. Akhadi I would

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I would ask you to please explain How it is that we should believe?

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Surah 5 116 and 117 It has no historical foundation no one prior to muhammad ever quoted jesus saying these words there is no historical connection

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We're not told when these words were said where these words were said It's just a supposed divine revelation

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Well, actually it's these words haven't even been said because they're just going to be at the end of time God says he's going to say this to jesus

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And this is what jesus is going to say Well, there's a couple places in the bible where we're given things that jesus is going to say

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At the judgment and things like that so there's things like that in in the bible But normally jesus is the one who tells us about him

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And there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever Outside well, I just believe the quran's word of god. Therefore, you know, you just believe it

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Well, I believe new testament's word of god. Therefore the quran can't be is that as far as we can get Or can we examine these things?

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And in that context you've got to explain. How is it that the quranic? Jesus is so much less than The jesus of the new testament so much more

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One -dimensional He's not a person There is no person of jesus in the quran.

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He's just a disembodied voice that sort of floats around and Says things about monotheism and prophethood

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And denies he ever told anybody to worship him, you know, that's that's about it And yet you have this this depth

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This reciprocal relationship between the father and the son in jesus's own words in matthew 11 27

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I hope that in your providing a response to all that i've said and I know i've said a lot

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That you'll explain Will you just simply go ah just interpolation change corruption

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And if you're going to say that then provide a foundation for it Give some evidence don't just simply say well that's been corrupted

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Well, you see the the quran is muhammad. It's uh, it's a it's a Guard over these previous and it shows us that's wrong

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And so anything that's in the quran means everything and anything contradicts in the bible, you know that automatically is wrong that's not

35:57

An argument That is going to get you anywhere uh, we've got two calls online both skype calls and then we have uh,

36:06

Looks like possibly one other call coming in on the regular line at eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one.

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That wasn't a real long section, but i'll go ahead and uh, And mention that in an email to mr.

36:19

Akhadi so we can at least Get a little bit farther down the road. Uh, that didn't get us very far down the road

36:25

But once again, I think it's an important text. I think it's an important subject and as such I I didn't want to Just go rushing past it.

36:32

So we went from 56 46 um Well, it got us

36:38

Almost a minute down the road At this rate that's not very good. All right

36:43

Anyways, let's uh, let's go ahead and start taking some of our phone calls and let's talk with uh,

36:48

Daniel in uh, texas. Hi daniel Hello daniel

36:55

I can't hear daniel. Can you hear daniel? I don't hear any sounds coming from the great state of texas and Rich is just staring at the screen and he's not giving me any information whatsoever

37:08

He should be right there, but he's not right there. Um, can we try?

37:16

Can we try Someone else maybe possibly no

37:23

Okay, i'll let them try to figure out what's going on there. Sorry, uh daniel, uh and jeff in canada

37:29

We'll see if we can figure out where you are and why we're not hearing you in a moment and uh,

37:34

I will Press on it's not my right to say to the people to worship me and my mother as gods besides allah

37:40

I said not to them except what you commanded me to worship allah my lord And your lord and when

37:48

I was a witness over them as long as I was among them But when you took me up you were the observer over them and you are over all things witness

37:58

Misconceptions Misconceptions The first Verse you may hear

38:05

Is for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son That whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life the famous john 316 um

38:18

I I I don't think that I have ever started A debate or or hardly even used in a debate

38:27

John 316 Um, if I want to talk about jesus as the as monogamous theos the unique god i'm going to go to john 118

38:36

And discuss the textual basis and its meaning and things like that And i'm going to go to those places like matthew 11 27 where the sonship of jesus john 5 17 and 18 where the sonship the unique sonship of jesus is so clearly presented.

38:52

That's where i'm going to go I'm, not gonna i'm not going to go to john 316 and my concern here is that i've having listened to this

38:58

It does strike me that what we're about to hear Uh connects up With what we heard from our friend down in australia

39:07

And goes back unfortunately to the very bad islamic apologist akma d dot

39:13

And what we're going to hear once again for some reason this just keeps floating around and I think it's all due to akma d dot

39:19

Is uh, well you you read the uh, the preface to the rsv which by the way wajdi is not

39:26

Popular amongst believing evangelicals in the english -speaking world Uh, even it's been replaced with the nrsv and even that's much more on the left -hand side of things

39:35

Uh than uh, most of us are by a long shot. So just just for your own information there, but uh,

39:43

Uh, here we go. Uh about uh monogamous Uh, which means uh unique or one -of -a -kind, but we have a comment to say the revised standard version of the bible

39:57

Is the work of 32 biblical christian scholars of the highest eminence

40:04

Eminence backed by 50 cooperating christian denominations Um, mainly liberal denominations, uh, mr.

40:11

Akhadi just for your information. I mean I I think there are are better translations of the bible, uh produced by scholars of equal eminence

40:21

And but more conservative and I would think you especially would uh find uh

40:27

These other scholars to be more consistent with your world view in the sense of being

40:32

Actually believing that what they're translating is the word of god rather than not necessarily believing that at all.

40:37

I mean Let's let's put it this way. Mr. Akhadi. Wouldn't you trust a Uh a translation of the quran done by someone who believes what it says rather than someone who doesn't well similar situation here

40:50

They produced the revised standard version of the bible in an effort to correct the many and serious errors

40:57

That they had found in the king james bible the greek the greek term for begotten in ancient greek is is

41:06

Now Okay, the term used in greek is guinea guinea now for begotten

41:13

But in fact the word which you find there is monogamies And not guinea which means unique Consequently in the revised standard version the word that is there is unique and not begotten

41:28

I Don't know what they're I don't know why I I guess

41:34

The the only reason that I can understand that muslims keep grabbing this and passing it around Is because they really really really don't understand what we mean by the relationship with the father and the son

41:45

They really think that there is a wife involved And they really think that has something to do with the lowest lower sexual nature and all the rest of that stuff even though we have very clearly um said no

42:00

Uh, that is not we believe There is no wife involved. There is no time involved.

42:06

This is a relationship term It helps to distinguish between the two divine persons.

42:12

It's not on such and such a day God got together with a creature and had a child.

42:18

That's not what we believe and so even using the term begotten. I mean begotten comes from ganao that has

42:26

That has two news in it Monogamous only has one it's from yes, it means unique.

42:32

That's why in john 1 18 monogamous theos the unique god I would invite you to to deal with the fact that that's

42:40

The most ancient text of the gospel of john and one of the most anciently attested uh evidences of the deity of christ found in john 1 18

42:53

That that's what you need to be dealing with. They're not Not what the rsv says about the king james or something like that Unique and not begotten and jesus is unique.

43:03

Did he have a father? No, did he do miracles? Yes. He is the unique unique creation of allah so that Not not creation.

43:12

It does not say unique creation of allah. It's uh, If if even at that point, even if you use if you translate monogamous as unique The term huyas is still there in john 3 16

43:27

That means son. So he is the unique son. He is son in a way. No one else is you need to explain how that is?

43:34

and and It's not going to do to simply say oh well That was um, you know, because god said be and he was

43:44

You don't have any room for jesus as monogamous huyas Let alone monogamous theos

43:52

In quranic islamic theology, you just don't have room for it But that's what the bible is actually saying the greek then does not have the word begotten

44:03

And this is the one that they used to prove their point But their own christian scholars after making the necessary studies declared that this this particular term is not from the authentic teachings

44:14

Of jesus and it was consequently taken out from the revised standard version

44:20

Again this is this just it disappoints me because Uh, mr.

44:26

Akari, it demonstrates a fundamental Misunderstanding and well even of of how translations function in our uh perspective and i'd imagine yours as well,

44:36

I mean if if I were to uh, look at an older english translation of the quran

44:43

And compare it with a modern translation And find that there has been uh

44:49

Further study done on the meaning of a particular arabic word and therefore It's been changed to the modern translation.

44:56

Does that is that relevant to anything outside of? How we understand that in the english language?

45:03

None of this changes what monogamous huyas means the only begotten son

45:10

We aren't saying that means in time we're not saying there's a wife there's not we're not saying there's a birth process

45:17

Even the term only begotten In the old testament referred to one who had a position of preeminence and uniqueness

45:25

Even isaac is called abraham's monogamous But that doesn't mean that was the only child he had there was a unique relationship involved there

45:37

And so you just have to keep that in mind in looking at this the second misconception

45:45

For there are three that they witness in heaven the father the word and the holy spirit and these three are

45:51

One another famous one. Here's the news for you now. Check it out

45:58

Okay, I need now that i've had him say it I I need to cover this and if can we go a little bit late?

46:03

Maybe if we need to okay if if daniel jeff stay there We'll get we're gonna try to get to you They feel that they've uh troubleshot whatever the technical issues were even though the look on rich's face was

46:12

I don't know what the technical issues Was so I don't know how I could have fixed it but Need to address this.

46:18

Uh, this is very important wajdi. I have um I have addressed did we

46:24

Do we have some way of knowing which books we sent because i'd be interested in knowing if I sent the king james only controversy It doesn't sound doesn't sound like we did.

46:32

Well, if not, maybe we'll need to send it but um I have addressed the issue of what's called the kami ohana many many times on my blog.

46:40

I've done it on On this program over and over again, mr. Akati first john 5 7 uh is not a part of the original new testament we we covered this if you go back and listen to I right before I started responding to you.

46:55

I was responding to another another muslim uh debater down in In australia and responding to a debate he did with samuel green

47:04

And he just kept going back over this and over the saying it's the only verse that teaches a trinity And they've been taking it out.

47:10

Oh, there's a Mr. Akati All christian scholars have been well aware of the fact

47:17

That the kami ohana was not a part of the original gospel of first of writing of first john the epistle of john first john 5 7 and This is this is nothing new any first year greek student or first year bible student is

47:35

Aware of the issues regarding the text of first john 5 7 um

47:41

The vast majority of modern translations do not contain this. It's not a matter of taking it out

47:47

The fact was that if you just want the real brief summary here When the greek new testament began to be published

47:54

Initially the first printed and published greek new testament came out in 1516 And its editor was desiderius erasmus

48:02

And it did not contain the kami ohana The second edition did not contain the kami ohana or first john 5 7

48:09

The third edition did because erasmus was attacked Because those words are found in latin vulgate

48:16

And it was a dangerous day to be accused of a heretic in europe being of being a heretic in europe

48:21

There are people calling erasmus orthodoxy into um into question because of this and in reality a

48:30

Greek manuscript a codex called codex monfortianus which today is in trinity college in dublin ireland

48:38

I actually got to examine Codex monfortianus about a year ago right about now actually a little bit over a year ago now early february of in the trinity college, uh archive manuscript room in dublin ireland

48:54

And by the way, i'm trying to arrange getting back there in september of uh of this year Um, I would like to be able to to debate at trinity pray that that that happens

49:03

Um, but yeah, and in fact on on this issue an issue related to this the textual criticism of the the quran and the bible um

49:12

Most people feel that that particular codex codex monfortianus was specifically written

49:19

To force erasmus to insert the kami ohana into first john 5 7 Even though ironically the form which is inserted by erasmus is not the same form as it takes in codex monfortianus

49:31

It is found in early latin manuscripts, but it is not a part of the greek manuscript tradition and as such

49:42

Should not be considered an original part of the text of first john Now those are just the facts of the kami ohana there are a few christians very small number very marginalized folks uh who make the kami ohana the be all and end all of all things and and defend it vociferously, but They are as I said, um, they they would make the the druze look like a large group amongst muslims in comparison to the number amongst christians and so Nowhere in no way shape or form

50:17

Is the doctrine the trinity at all dependent upon the kami ohana in fact, I would invite you to do something, uh, watch me

50:24

Unfortunately, the forgotten tree doesn't have a scripture index in it But the scripture index to the forgotten trinity is on my website

50:30

If you'll search for that on my website, you will find that in our articles in the old article section of the website there is a

50:39

Scripture index to the forgotten trinity look up first john 5 7 You will find that it is never used to define or defend the doctrine of the trinity we are not dependent upon it

50:51

In any way shape or form i'm going to need to let him finish his comments there Then we'll try going to our phone call this verse is now universally

51:00

Recognized as being a later insertion of the church and all recent versions of the bible

51:06

Such as the devised standard version It wasn't an insertion of the church It was certain people

51:13

Who forced erasmus to do this and erasmus included in his annotations a big huge long note

51:18

As to why he felt that it was not original But it wasn't some church coming along and said hey put this in because we need further evidence for the trinity that Had nothing to do with it at all the new revised standard version

51:29

The new american standard bible and the new english bible the philips modern bible all of them do not have this verse

51:37

You buy any of them you open any of them you will find that this was taken out It was a footnote

51:43

You mean it was not originally there which one of the scribes had written and it found its way and it crept into the actual text possibly

51:52

Uh, there are many people who theorize that it was a gloss an interpretation Of the three witnesses that is actually found there in first john 5 7

52:03

Um and taken as a trinitarian illusion, that is a possible Origin of it, but when they made the necessary studies, they realized this is not from the greek manuscripts

52:13

It doesn't exist in any greek manuscript. So they threw it out of the bible Um threw it out of the bible is not the way to put it.

52:20

Um Recognized what happened in uh in in the early 1520s uh, yes

52:27

Uh, but the idea of it ever having been in the bible Uh, that's like again, what if you had certain issues with a

52:39

Translation of the quran And what was included what was not and there are there are people there are people you consider to be unorthodox muslims who've created

52:48

Translations of the quran or maybe the shiites or something like that and and their versions of the quran

52:53

Uh, does that actually change what the quran is? Mr. Akari, of course not There there is a an ancient text that is the quran and when you look at the ancient, uh

53:05

Copies of the greek new testament. Uh, this is not a part of it So this is the only verse which they have to support trinity.

53:11

It has been taken out from the bible totally completely wrong

53:18

Um, and you have a 200 some odd page book in your hand now Well, you may not be holding it right now, but you could be

53:25

Uh that says otherwise I define defend the doctrine. I never use that verse so it is not by any stretch of the imagination uh, the quote -unquote only verse on the trinity that that disappointed me because that That that's that's just way off.

53:41

All right. Let's see if we can quickly get to our phone calls here and uh, let's uh, Try daniel in texas

53:47

Hello, daniel. Yes, sir. I hear you Hey there. Um, thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir.

53:52

Um, I was uh I recall a while ago. I read your book scripture alone and I was trying to find a reference before Program, but I couldn't find it.

54:00

You made reference to It is for a christian to a particular christian not to believe in the full inspiration of scripture

54:08

I mean, obviously they'd be inconsistent at that point But I think I is am I representing correctly?

54:14

It's possible for there to be a person who's generally born again. Who's not believing full inspiration I would really need to know what you're referring to Um, yes,

54:23

I mean, I wish I don't I mean I'm uncomfortable uh with two things i'm uncomfortable with anyone who uh would

54:36

Have a lower view of scripture than jesus himself held Yeah, um, but at the same time, uh, does that mean that Every united methodist is going to hell today.

54:48

Um No But it certainly does not bode. Well, I do think that the spirit of god brings to a person a

54:59

Love for and obedience to the word of god, but could people have a you know They're taught a tradition from their elders or something like that that would cause them to be inconsistent on that point um,

55:11

I suppose so but Uh, I I would be very very concerned about about anyone.

55:16

Uh that would have any issues in that area. Yeah Myself as well the way i'm actually struggling with my um

55:24

My father back home and I come from a christian family and he's a professing christian And i've had discussions with him and he says well,

55:31

I think parts of the bible are inspired But and he admits I have no idea, you know, I have no idea which parts they are

55:38

Aside from hopefully hopefully the parts that allow him to trust in jesus maybe yeah.

55:44

Yeah, I mean, I mean I mean Since jesus quotes from all over the old testament and and identifies it as god speaking it

55:52

It strikes me that it would seem to be rather dangerous To set yourself up in that way

55:58

Yeah, and I mean I actually went there for a while before I became a calvinist. I remember my pastor Taught on romans 9 and that led me to believe well romans 8 is inspired that and I eventually

56:08

Came back from that and I said I realized I can't pick and choose what's what's not inspired Yes, you feel it's the best way just to press consistency.

56:17

Well, yeah, well you know obviously if someone says look

56:22

I know that I am a sinner and I am in need of salvation and I Uh trust in jesus christ alone for my salvation.

56:32

I'm leaning to nothing else but to him um Obviously my my question to such a person is how do you know what jesus has done for you?

56:42

How do you know that your faith in him can bring you eternal life? Uh, aren't you it is it is a consistency issue.

56:50

There's the the two go hand in hand and whenever a religious denominations

56:56

Faith and trust that god has spoken collapses the gospel is

57:03

Never far behind in turning from a powerful proclamation of a of a savior

57:10

And the uniqueness of his saving work to in essence a a a religious club and and Moral reformation.

57:19

I mean that's what happens. And so the the two are intimately connected And even when jesus says if anyone says they're they're ashamed of me and of my gospel

57:28

I will be ashamed of them before my father who is in heaven that likewise would seem to how do you know what the gospel is?

57:35

Yeah, uh, it is a consistency issue and I I would I would not just press it on the issue of well you need to be consistent, but I would

57:44

Press it to saying if you really are saying that the gospel Is the only means of salvation?

57:52

Then how can you even know what that gospel is? I mean is is that all that's inspired is the part that has the gospel in it

57:58

Because the gospel touches upon so many things that it touches upon the historicity of of jesus christ a death burial and resurrection of jesus christ and and his his own teaching about it and hence the gospels and whether the gospels accurately record for us what jesus said and You know and then once you've got that then jesus clearly accepts the old testament and he quotes the old testament as having this

58:22

Kind of authority and there's just there's just so much there that uh, my my gut feeling is with most folks

58:28

You start pressing there and you're probably going to find out that well Yeah, I believe the gospel is important for my salvation, but i'm not really sure that's really necessary for everybody else

58:38

Uh, that's been my experience a lot of folks anyways All right. Well, thank you very much. Okay.

58:44

All right. Thanks. Thanks. Daniel. God bless. Have a good day. All right, you too All right, let's uh, let's go uh foreign here

58:51

Uh, I do apologize and I hope that i'm still allowed into canada Um when

58:57

I go up there in in march for having made the 51st state crack Uh, but uh, let's talk to uh, jeff up in canada.

59:04

Hi jeff Almost there. Oh You don't want me singing the canadian national

59:15

Let's let's see if we can get carl on the phone to sing the canadian national anthem. All right. How about now?

59:20

How about now? Hi jeff Hello jeff. Yes, sir I uh,

59:26

I just wanted to ask have you uh better become familiar with at all. Um, Dr.

59:32

Jerry walls his new book on uh purgatory um and his arguments

59:37

Jerry walls on purgatory. Tell me about this book. Haven't heard about it. Okay.

59:43

Uh, well, uh, Jerry wall who wrote the uh Wesleyan armenian i'm sure you're familiar with him.

59:49

Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah, he uh, He's written a book about heaven and a book about hell so to sort of complete the trilogy he

59:57

Just recently wrote a book about uh purgatory um and Uh, he's arguing

01:00:05

Uh that there's a logical and theological basis for it even

01:00:11

Even if you're not a catholic and all that sort of thing Oh, I bet you the publishers of his other books are are pulling their hair out in clumps right now

01:00:21

I I might be wrong, but I think this one is published by notre dame. So there of course, oh, hey

01:00:27

Uh, and that might tell you something right there interesting. I I was unaware of it.

01:00:33

Um, A turretin fan, of course has immediately popped up a url on the screen Uh, which is sort of frightening that he's uh, that's he's able to do things like that uh, oxford university press actually is the uh, that's right, sorry, uh, the logic of total transformation is the

01:00:51

Jerry, l walls the author of books on hell and heaven completes his tour of the afterlife with a philosophical and theological exploration and defense of purgatory

01:00:59

The traditional teaching that most christians require a period of post -mortem cleansing and purging of their sinful dis really most christians.

01:01:07

Honestly He examines protestant objections to the doctrine and shows the doctrine purgatory has been construed in different ways

01:01:13

Some of which are fully compatible with protestant theology. Well But i'm, sorry, but there you go folks, um,

01:01:21

I I hate to have to go Um, I told you something about those arminians. Uh, but I told you something about those arminians

01:01:30

Uh in particular while purgatory has often been understood as matter of punishment in order to make satisfaction for sins Um, yeah, that's the official roman view.

01:01:38

Um That have not been fully remitted It can also be seen as the completion of the sanctification process

01:01:43

An account of the doctrine that is fully consistent with the protestant doctrine justification by faith. Well, that ain't the roman view of purgatory um, uh, so well, that's uh, that that may be something we need to uh, take a look at I I had not uh,

01:01:57

Not heard about it. And I guess it came out back in december 1st of 2011. So it's only been

01:02:03

What about uh, four or five six weeks ago now, so uh, maybe we'll have to grab it and take a look at it, but I Uh, it it's it's an amazing thing to uh, uh to read just uh that amount of it

01:02:17

Yeah, well and uh I don't know necessarily what what you were indicating about I told you about those arminians, but I did well.

01:02:27

Well, my problem is this um When I critiqued the uh,

01:02:34

Why i'm not a calvinist book that he was a part of is that the turn was that the title or? Yeah, I think yeah,

01:02:40

I think it was yeah As I said was well, once again, the arminians have demonstrated that they are far more comfortable talking about philosophy than they are doing exegesis

01:02:50

And that's what you've got here. I mean purgatory what you what i'm what we're just if this is representational

01:02:57

And I haven't read the book so I can't tell you but if this is representational What i'm hearing is this wishy -washy protestant

01:03:08

Continuation of sanctification after death purging oneself of self -love type of a thing that again

01:03:17

You you you take it to the book of hebrews and you talk about what perfection means you talk about union with christ you talk about atonement and It doesn't fit but the arminianism that walls presented in that book

01:03:32

Was was not a biblical Uh expression it was much more of a philosophical expression

01:03:39

So if you start there with a philosophical view of the gospel, then it makes sense That well, let's get philosophical

01:03:45

When we start talking about eschatology, too So why not? Yeah, and um, i'll give him credit william william birch

01:03:54

Uh wrote a couple responses to this and he's not a calvinist himself but he pointed out that this is what you get have a a view of Christ's work on the cross in which he didn't actually accomplish anything, right?

01:04:08

He didn't fit the work and there are a lot of uh, there are a lot of books out there today where They've put substitutionary atonement back on the table.

01:04:16

And of course historical arminianism does not believe in substitutionary atonement to begin with and so it is it is all of a

01:04:24

Uh, all of a of a piece it all comes together, I guess. Um, so yeah

01:04:30

Thanks for uh, bringing my attention to that. I appreciate it. Not a problem. Thank you Thanks a lot. All right. God bless.

01:04:35

All right. Thanks for listening to the dividing line today. What i'm, sorry I'm, sorry, we do

01:04:43

Oh, I That one wasn't there before Okay, when we will need to take it even though it wasn't there before let's talk to uh, um, talk to gregory and saint kitts

01:04:55

Hi gregory Oh Canada These skype calls, um

01:05:06

It makes it easier when we have 800 number calls that are the 877 number calls

01:05:11

I can take those in between And then you have time And gregory. Yes, sir. What can

01:05:16

I do for you real quick? Yes, I'd like to call him Yes, sir Yes I'd like to call him.

01:05:24

Yes. You're on the air. Go ahead. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Dr. White. Sorry about that Um, i'm calling to to ask a question.

01:05:31

I have heard it said that When you see sin in the bible the word sin in the bible it says

01:05:39

That that is referencing your sin nature and when you see the word sins, that's the plural it is talking about your actions

01:05:50

Is that an ironclad Consistent thing throughout the bible the difference between sin and sins um

01:05:59

Well, no, I I wouldn't uh, I wouldn't want to make a a

01:06:04

Generalized statement statement like that. I am much more comfortable exegetically dealing with with individual examples because um

01:06:16

I could see instances both directions where you would have um

01:06:22

Where you could use the term sin in a general sense of um

01:06:29

The the corruption of remaining sin And you could use uh, the plural of individual acts of sin but you'd also

01:06:39

Have john saying the one who's born of god does not sin and that would be more of Of a habitual type of thing and so no i'm i'm uncomfortable

01:06:49

That's one of the reasons I was uncomfortable with the niv's rendering of um sarx as uh

01:06:56

In the way that it rendered it instead of flesh sinful nature or something like that It doesn't it doesn't allow for you to be careful along those lines even some authors

01:07:07

Uh will use a different Ways of expressing that within one book so i'd be very careful about overarching

01:07:16

Uh concepts like that and forcing that into a particular text. It's always best to let the meaning flow

01:07:22

From an individual text than it is, uh to to have an overarching thing like that.

01:07:28

Okay. Okay. And yeah, i'd also like to ask P i've heard it said people go to hell because of their sin nature and not because of their sins

01:07:38

But your sins determine the degree of punishment in hell that you're going to receive well

01:07:44

Uh, and I and I I wouldn't say you go to hell because of your sin nature You you go to hell because you're guilty before god and in fact, uh, if you're going to want to You know make an overarching statement.

01:07:57

It is our our union with adam. We receive from adam All we can receive from adam and and that is the fallen nature and and sin and death uh, we receive from christ that which we can only receive from him and that is

01:08:11

Uh life and and and forgiveness and and the eternal blessedness So that's the argument in in romans chapter 5.

01:08:19

So while the personal sins one commits clearly do have an issue Have an impact upon the kind of punishment that one receives jesus does

01:08:29

When he talks to christen and beseda, he talks about sodom and gomorrah so on and so forth Um, I think at the same time

01:08:36

Uh, we need to recognize that we we go to hell because we have not been made right with god

01:08:42

We go to hell because there is a sin debt and his holiness Uh cannot stand the presence of that which is impure and we are impure by nature and so there is a legal aspect to that and there is a

01:08:57

Constitutional aspect of that as children of adam Uh, and then the the element of punishment then is determined by the sins that we've committed

01:09:05

Hey, thank you gregory for your your phone call. Thanks to everybody for your phone call Uh today and uh also we will next week lord willing, uh, press forward with our

01:09:17

We're going to finish up. We just we just got to finish it up. I got to finish responding. Mr Acura, we need to get back to the wallace -erman debate and uh other things as they develop as well here on the buying line

01:09:27

We'll see you then god bless We need

01:09:58

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