SRR #65 | Biblical Manhood And Clayton Jennings

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November 16, 2017

00:02: I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.
00:13: When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the air and combating the air.
00:23: We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make,
00:30: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.
00:37: We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing.
00:57: It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible. Jesus said,
01:07: Woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
01:13: As opposed to, Blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness. It is on.
01:22: We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. All right.
01:29: I want to welcome everybody back to Simple Riff around the radio. My name is Tim Shaughnessy. I am coming at you from El Paso, Texas.
01:37: I'm glad to be here with you guys. And so, today we have with us two of our co -hosts.
01:45: And it's really good to hear from them. We have Joseph Rios and Joe Lonza.
01:51: So the two Joes are in the house. And I think Joe has only been with us on one episode.
01:59: But I really do want to bring him on as often as we can. I know that Joe's schedule and my schedule sometimes don't meet up.
02:08: And that's why we're not able to make the recordings happen. And then I know that Joseph, he's been really busy.
02:15: But I'm very glad to have these guys on here. So I'll give you guys an opportunity to say hello.
02:22: And maybe you guys can just tell us how you've been. Well, I guess I'll go first then.
02:29: I've been relatively well. I actually just had some minor surgery and kind of recovering from that recently.
02:39: And trying to get better, keeping some ice on hand. Other than that, really not a whole lot's been going on.
02:48: Just trying to keep up to some of the silliness that happens on social media to some extent.
02:56: Hey, guys. It's Joseph Rios. So I am finally formally going to be starting some seminary class in December.
03:04: Kind of an expedited class. And I'll be starting the actual coursework, it looks like, in spring.
03:12: So I'm finally moving forward on that. So that's maybe the busier part that's coming up.
03:19: My work finally slowed down a bit. But I'm looking forward to that. Getting to teach some of the classes in church in regards to the fundamentals.
03:27: It's going to be a master seminary extension. So I'm just really, really, really looking forward to studying the languages.
03:34: And maybe jumping in the second half of their Greek class coming spring if they let me. Well, that should be exciting.
03:41: And maybe you can integrate some of the stuff that you're doing in seminary into the podcast.
03:51: So that way we can have some content to push out every week. That would be really good. But before we came on the air,
03:59: Joseph, Joe, and I were talking about the John Piper controversy. We're not going to say anything about that here in this episode.
04:07: Because I really want to be careful with what we put out there. But in the meantime,
04:13: I wanted to recommend an article that I thought was really good. It was written by Douglas Dalma.
04:19: We've had him on the show before. He is the author of the book, The Presbyterian Philosopher.
04:25: Which is the official biography of Gordon Clark. And he wrote an article titled,
04:32: Sanctification and its Means. And I thought this was really good. It really helped me to understand the means of sanctification.
04:40: And the place for works in our sanctification. And you can find the article on Douglas Dalma.
04:48: His last name is D -O -U -M -A dot wordpress dot com. And the article is titled,
04:54: Sanctification and its Means. And what I'll go ahead and do is I'll just go ahead and attach this article into the show notes.
05:02: So that way you guys don't actually have to pay attention to the URL that I just gave.
05:07: Alright, so today's topic. Joe Lonza is going to lay it down for us today.
05:15: And I'm going to give the floor to him in a little bit. He sent me some information about an issue that he wants to talk about.
05:24: That he's been going over. And I definitely agree that we need to talk about it. Now if you've been in the
05:30: Bible thumping wingnut hemisphere. I'm pretty sure that you're already familiar with this.
05:37: That you're already pretty well versed in this controversy. You probably already know a little bit about the individual that we're talking about.
05:48: But for those who maybe are a little bit unfamiliar with it. I'm going to ask Joe to give us a history of it.
05:56: And the person that we kind of want to talk about is Clayton Jennings.
06:03: And the reason why is because he recently came out with a video. I think Tim Hurd even talked a little bit about it in a blog.
06:11: But Joe, can you fill us in on what it is we're going to be talking about today. Pertaining to Clayton Jennings.
06:18: Yeah, Clayton Jennings is somebody I was introduced to kind of through the pulpit and pen group.
06:28: It was something that I'm not going to go too greatly into detail. Because what happens in the bunker stays in the bunker is the general rule.
06:37: But some tiffs between myself, Clayton, and Jordan Hall, and a few other people.
06:46: Ended up going down in there. And Clayton pretty much,
06:51: I guess he made a name for himself amongst us. We really tried to reach out to the guy and help him.
07:01: Guide him past some of the bad optics.
07:07: The way that his ministry looked to people. And for those that aren't familiar, one of the reasons why his ministry looked so bad to begin with.
07:20: Was the guy is a male model, so to speak.
07:28: He's a good looking guy. I'm a fully heterosexual man and I can tell you that he is a good looking guy.
07:38: And it's not anything against him specifically, that's how God made him. But as a result, he ended up having a lot of female followers.
07:49: We noticed in his presentations on YouTube and things like that.
07:56: That he was always dressed a specific way and always had the right kind of lighting.
08:02: And was very concerned with exactly how he looked. Which is not really all that weird in the world of YouTube and social media and everything.
08:11: But ultimately we saw that there was just a lot of female attention. If you look through any of his videos, anything he ever says on Facebook or Twitter.
08:22: The majority if not 100 % of the comments are from women ranging in age from being 50 years old.
08:31: Down to being teenage girls. Many of them are just talking about how good of a minister they believe him to be.
08:40: And all the way ranging to very inappropriate sexual comments and things like that.
08:49: So we talked to him a little bit about that. Wanted to make sure that he understood that it really looks bad.
08:55: It looks about as bad as two people that are attracted to each other living with each other before they're married.
09:03: It doesn't necessarily mean anything is happening sexually. But it does look very bad.
09:10: It has that appearance of evil that we want to avoid. He didn't really take us up too much on that and didn't really appreciate the advice.
09:19: So eventually went our separate ways. About a year later,
09:25: Jordan Hall brings some rather disturbing information to light about Mr.
09:32: Jennings. He was being not only accused but having evidence put forward about him.
09:40: About his sexual trysts that he had with women that followed his ministry.
09:46: Pretty much as we were praying but suspected was happening.
09:52: We were praying that it wasn't happening. Ultimately, long story short,
09:59: I believe it was well over a half dozen, maybe even a dozen.
10:05: I could be wrong about that. Women that came forward and said that he had different forms of sexual interactions with him.
10:19: Texting information that he wanted certain things from them. All the way down to actual encounters.
10:28: Things so far as him actually giving alcohol to women while not drinking anything himself.
10:37: Getting them to loosen their inhibitions to such an extent that they would engage in sexual activity with him.
10:45: Then he would push himself on them. To me, at that point when you're essentially trying to get somebody drunk to an extent where they don't understand what's going on around them anymore.
10:59: That's getting pretty close to date rape at that point. All this you can actually find the story.
11:10: It's actually called Clayton Jennings Money, Sex, and Cover Ups.
11:16: The story from beginning to end. That is at pulpitandpen .org
11:25: Just go in there and type in Clayton Jennings and then you can find that article in there.
11:32: Tim, you might be able to put that in the show notes. I'm not really sure. Yes, absolutely.
11:39: Let me ask you a question. During this whole time, that's essentially what
11:45: Bill Cosby was accused of doing. I'm not too sure how far it went with Clayton Jennings.
11:53: Trying to loosen up somebody's inhibitions by giving them something that's going to alter the mind.
12:03: Obviously, if something like that's going on, that's definitely predator behavior.
12:10: Let me ask you, was he in ministry in an official capacity during this time?
12:16: If so, what did that look like? At that point, he actually had a license,
12:24: I believe, given to him by his church. I could be wrong about where the actual license was through.
12:31: The only reason I know that specifically is because of logical inference.
12:37: Once these things came to light, his mentor, which you could probably read about in that article that I mentioned, was a well -known preacher and evangelist, actually pretty much disowned him in a sense, put him out to Satan to seek correction and everything.
13:03: Ultimately, again, if I remember right, if my memory is serving me properly,
13:12: I recall him actually admitting to all of this and then at that point went before his own elders at his church, which his father was the pastor of.
13:26: At that point, his eldership revoked Clayton Jennings' license to be a minister, at least with their church.
13:43: Was that a turning point for him to then try to repent and come to terms with this?
13:52: Because the video that we're going to be talking about today was a video that was put out recently.
14:02: I'm just wondering, has he gone through a period of repentance, stepping down, or has he just kind of continually put himself out there and then made excuses for his sinful behavior?
14:20: Well, if you asked Clayton or pretty much anybody that is still supporting
14:26: Clayton, you would hear, yes, he has repented.
14:33: What that repentance looked like in these issues were him going and making another one of these videos similar to the one that we're going to review right now, what's kind of called a spoken word.
14:48: It's kind of a beatless rap that people will do.
14:55: He went on, did a spoken word where he talked very vaguely, never referring to any sins that he committed, just generally saying he sins and that he has sinned and that he's done bad things, which any number of us could say.
15:13: Sure, we can say, Lord, I repent for my sins. But at this point, he's made a public spectacle of his sin.
15:23: And the only thing that you could even remotely consider repentance was a vague reference to just him being a human being.
15:33: Outside of that, there's not been any repentance at best. He's doubled down and we embraced kind of the idea that he's repented and that it's not really a big deal anymore and that he should be able to continue to preach and all these different things.
15:57: Obviously, he's still out there doing stuff. He's made videos over the last year or so of him at his venues that he'll go to where he's been booked as a speaker.
16:12: And there was one specific one where he pretended like the people that were his detractors had somehow thwarted him in his efforts to speak at these events.
16:25: And he's like, well, I guess you guys finally won and nobody showed up. And then he goes, oh, wait a minute.
16:31: And he turns around and there's a whole crowd of people. And he's essentially mocking the people that have tried to call him to repentance for something that he admits that he did.
16:42: And then when we tell him that what he claims is his repentance isn't what repentance looks like in the public sphere, at least, he he'll then call us slanderers.
16:57: He'll go so far as to make videos like the one we're going to talk about today.
17:04: Yeah, it sounds almost as if what you're talking about is analogous to the kid that gets into a fight on the playground and the parents come in to try to bring reconciliation and tell the kid, you know, you're hitting people in the face and it's not cool.
17:27: You know, you need to repent and say you're sorry. And then his response is just a general, well,
17:34: I'm not perfect. You know, I'm human, too. And it's like that's not repentance.
17:39: And, you know, that you're really not showing remorse and sorrow for what you've done.
17:47: If you're going to do something that has a tone of mockery against those who are actually calling you to repent, as basically what you talked about in his response about like, well, you know, you guys finally got me.
18:05: No one's here. And then he turns around and there's a crowd cheering him. And it's like, you know, that just has a tone of mockery, like you said, and doesn't show any remorse.
18:17: But, Joseph, did you have anything to say before we play the video? Just briefly, it's interesting because I think we overlook people scoffing and mocking and stuff like that.
18:29: I think we even use it sometimes. And it definitely seems like there's a place for pointing out the irony in what somebody else says.
18:36: But it was just reminding me very briefly of, you know, Psalm 1 -1, where it says, you know,
18:42: Blessed are the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers.
18:49: And then contrast that, right? And then contrast that with a godly man, you know, but his delight is in the law of the Lord. And in his law, he meditates day and night.
18:56: And then it goes on to describe, you know, the benefits of being godly in that way. And so I just, you know,
19:02: I'm sorry, that's just the first thing that came to my mind when you were describing how he responded. The scripture is not ambiguous in regards to that attitude, that arrogance, the person's heart that's being put on display by them.
19:19: Yeah, that's good. Definitely. Thank you for pointing that out. Okay, so we have to give our listeners a warning because we do not agree with some of the stuff that Clayton Jennings says on this video that we're going to play.
19:39: And we're just going to play the audio, obviously, because we're a podcast. But it's not just so much that we disagree with him theologically.
19:50: Some of the stuff he makes reference to his genitalia, and I think in a pretty juvenile way.
19:59: And so if you are listening with kids, we would say definitely preview this before so that as a parent, you can make an informed decision as to their level of maturity.
20:15: We don't want to cause anybody to stumble, but we don't feel that this is appropriate for people of certain age to hear.
20:24: And again, as a parent, we commend you to make that decision yourself.
20:29: But if you do have small kids that listen to this, you know, please preview this before.
20:37: And unfortunately, in order for us to talk about this, we're going to have to actually play it in its entirety.
20:45: So Joe, did you have anything else to say about just the censorship of this?
20:51: Nothing specifically. The only thing I would say is that I believe in answering the fool according to his folly.
20:59: So I think at this point he has censored himself. But in order to talk about this topic,
21:07: I'm not going to censor myself as if I'm the one saying it. Like I said,
21:14: I'm not he he didn't use overly explicit, but he's definitely being suggestive.
21:19: So I will for the sake of accuracy and quoting him, I will repeat things that he actually says himself.
21:29: Great. OK, I'm going to play it in its entirety. All right. Some of you need to stop sitting down and stand up just right when he tells men to man up.
21:40: In today's culture, men have more in common with Madonna than Moses. I'm the poet of when I became a man. So you already know this.
21:46: I denied Satan's lies like Judas with a middle finger and a slow kiss. I'm a river of lyrical waves and a crowd of mumblers who are flawless.
21:53: But notice how I never called myself flawless. Shoot, you probably heard gossip about my past before you even saw this.
21:59: But if God only used the faultless, he'd have nobody to turn the knob on living water's faucet. God uses the broken to preach the gospel and mold the complete.
22:06: Most of you flap your gums about other people, but you're still stuck in your seats. You better take that log out of your eye before you keep bucking those teeth.
22:13: I mean, God, when did men in the church suddenly become chicks? Have you forgotten you were born with a fist?
22:19: So what are you using it for? I mean, what are you swinging at? Masculinity got minimized and I'm just bringing it back. If you want to shut me up, come see me with a gat.
22:26: I'm crazy enough to walk into a gunfight with a bat. Trying to get me to sit down is like trying to put Rosa Parks in the back.
22:32: You'd have better luck making America great again. How can it be great when we've lost all of our men? It's time for somebody to stand up and fight back.
22:38: Let's throw some gasoline on this wood stack and light that. And you can sit down and shut up if you don't like that. Some of us are sick of being told to pipe down.
22:46: I used to be timid, but I reached between my legs and what they lack is what I found. So cowboy up and stiffen your spine.
22:51: Come on, man, I'm telling you that this is your time. You were made to be a lion, so don't die as a sheep. I want to die standing and fighting.
22:58: You want to die in your sleep. But there's no reason to make death wishes. Most of you are already dead. You died the day you let the lies of this scissified culture nest in your head.
23:06: So you better shake that off and John Wayne this moment. You got one shot at this life. Come on, man, own it. Be a wall for your family.
23:12: Be strong when they can't be. Start living for God and stop preaching this cotton candy. And if they don't like you, guess what?
23:18: They can't stand me. But shooters never care about the opinions of Bambi. So kindle a fire in your cave and let's go slay some giants.
23:24: Nod up and live life with defiance. Let the roars of lions penetrate the silence. With eyes wide open, hand in hand, this is a call to every woman and man.
23:33: When the world sits, we stand. All right, so that was the clip in its entirety.
23:42: And my first impression is I almost feel as if this was written by some juvenile male adolescence who thinks he's a tough guy.
23:57: And it's interesting because you get the impression that he wants you to rise up and let's go fight.
24:04: And there's a great cause that we need to address as men.
24:10: And I'm just thinking, what is he talking about? I don't understand the purpose of that.
24:16: And what's so interesting about this is because he's talking about being men.
24:24: I'm thinking, dude, you sound like a juvenile. You sound like a juvenile adolescent kid.
24:31: Because this is not what manhood looks like. This is not the way that a real godly man speaks.
24:41: Yes, I agree with the general concept that the church at large, that there is a problem of men being effeminate within the church.
24:51: Or just churches being effeminate. Because you see so many women in churches compared to men.
24:59: And I remember having a conversation with a guy at work. And I asked him if he goes to church.
25:05: And he says, yeah. And I said, oh, cool. That's neat. I go to church too.
25:10: And he says, yeah, I go because the wife likes it. And I'm like, do you let her make all your decisions or just the important ones?
25:19: And I could tell he's kind of embarrassed about admitting that, yes,
25:24: I go to church. And it's like, oh, it's the wife. Church is for her.
25:30: I think that a lot of times men in the church do feel this catering to women.
25:38: And so I can sort of sympathize with that. You see a lot of fathers and a lot of men absent from the church.
25:47: And when they're out in the culture and they actually are Christians, they sort of shy away from owning their faith.
25:55: And they sort of cower before other men. And so I can sort of understand that concept.
26:00: But the way that Clayton Jennings talks about this, I'm thinking you're talking about being a man.
26:09: And you're basically running your mouth like an adolescent child. So, Joe and Joseph, what are your guys' first impressions on that?
26:20: Well, I'm a little bit less prepared than him. So I've got one thing that stuck out to me. And then I'll let Joe take the floor.
26:26: I don't want to steal any of his thunder. There's one really specific thing that stuck out to me. So we're a lion, not sheep.
26:35: I'm going to say no. There's a lion, other than Judah in Scripture, that prowls around, and that's the devil.
26:44: And the sheep are the followers of Christ. In fact, they're the ones that enter into the sheepfold. I'm going to say no to that.
26:51: It's like he knows what people have said about God but doesn't know what the Bible says.
26:57: And will sacrifice what the Scripture says explicitly for what sounds good, which is really the mark of somebody you have to watch out for.
27:08: So, I mean, other than his crass way in which he spoke about things, I would say that was a specific segment that really caught my attention.
27:17: It was completely contradictory to the biblical paradigm and what we are in regards to what God says.
27:23: And Joe, I'll let you have it now. Well, I think a lot of people are going to focus on the crassness, and obviously we know that the
27:34: Scripture has a lot to say about that. Well, I guess it actually doesn't have a lot to say about that, but I would say that what it does have to say is pretty clear.
27:44: Ephesians 4 .29 speaks about not letting any,
27:49: I guess, what's the word exactly? Any unwholesome talk.
27:56: Some other languages say abusive or corrupt talk. Just generally, that idea is kind of the way that we present ourselves before the world.
28:11: It is something that I believe to be sin. It's a sin that I've been guilty of, so it's not something that I'm going to stand there and say to Clayton, oh, how could you possibly do something like this?
28:26: I understand what he's trying to get at, but where he's going with this is pretty rough.
28:37: Hey, Joe, did you want me to read that passage? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, Ephesians 4 .29.
28:45: I'm reading from the ESV. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
28:59: Yeah, and so obviously we would say, you know, talking about your private area that way, flipping somebody off, he says he flipped off Judas or Satan.
29:11: That's not, you know, that's not the way we address things as a
29:17: Christian. And so yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that the Bible does say enough about the way that we should talk to address this issue.
29:28: But the other thing, Joe, you know, you said you understand where he's coming from and you get what he's trying to get at.
29:39: But I think if you're going to be putting yourself out there as a pastor, teacher, or just trying to gain a following,
29:47: I do think, and I know that you would agree with this, you're held to a higher judgment, to a stricter judgment.
29:54: And you really need to be more concerned with, you know, the people that you're influencing and how you might be influencing them.
30:05: And so I think, you know, you're in agreement with that, and I'll just let you continue what you were saying.
30:13: Well, I think really it's not that, I guess maybe wording it the way
30:19: I did is probably wrong, that I get where he's coming from. I would say that because of my sin,
30:29: I understand the draw to speak that way. And in our culture, it's very much, you know, men talk like that.
30:39: You know, our president, for goodness sake, you know, he's the locker room talk guy, you know, and the crash speak and everything.
30:50: So I'd say more so I think I understand what he's trying to say.
30:57: However, I think the problem is that he's not actually consistent with the subject matter.
31:05: If you listen toward the end there, he's talking a lot about himself specifically, and people that come against him and, you know, people that don't like me, things like that, were the things that he was talking about.
31:19: He ends up talking about something about, how did he word it, sitting in your mother's house or something like that, sitting behind your keyboard,
31:28: I think is one phrase that he used. He's not talking about effeminate people in preaching or in church or the feminization of the church so much there.
31:47: He's talking about, this is where I'm a little bit afraid to go down this road because I don't want to accuse him of something he hasn't done.
31:59: But based on his past and what we know about that, and the fact that he hasn't been penitent at all about his past, and in the sense that we've even seen him still posting things where he's posing with women that aren't his wife and things like that for pictures, and things like that, which he is married now and has a daughter.
32:30: But again, I don't even sound like I'm accusing him of doing anything now because I wouldn't want to slander him or anything like that.
32:41: But it does worry me that he sees manhood as the expression of asserting himself sexually, since that is kind of the language that he uses in this video.
32:56: A lot of it being about, I forget exactly where he was going with the words that he said, but he says he reached between his legs and found what other people don't have.
33:10: And then talking about chicks, and then he goes to rhyme it with something else, stops and says the word fist.
33:25: And he's both times has referred to his genitals as something that make you a man.
33:34: Now granted, we're in a world now where people want to claim that you can be without any specific gender and everything like that, and sure, if that was what he was trying to get at, but it's not talking about manhood in the sense of biological manhood, but I think he's talking about manhood as in what it means to be either manly or to stand up as a man or to be even a godly man,
34:05: I think is what he's trying to get at. And yet in both of those instances, he refers back to his genitals as a way of asserting himself as a man.
34:18: And that really strikes me as a pattern with this guy. Is that how he thinks, and is he still thinking that way considering the fact that we know he hasn't repented?
34:31: Yeah, that's good. You know, and maybe we could talk a little bit about what being a godly man looks like.
34:40: And the article that I wanted to recommend was from Albert Moeller, and I really don't know too much about Albert Moeller, but I thought that this article was pretty good.
34:55: It was from April 21st, 2005, and I remember this being given to myself with a number of other young men.
35:02: And the article is titled, From Boy to Man, The Marks of Manhood.
35:10: And there's, I believe, 13 marks. But number one is spiritual maturity sufficient to lead a wife and children.
35:19: Number two, personal maturity sufficient to be a responsible husband and father.
35:25: Number three, economic maturity sufficient to hold an adult job and handle money.
35:30: Number four is physical maturity sufficient to work and protect a family.
35:38: Number five is sexual maturity sufficient to marry and fulfill God's purpose.
35:44: Number six is moral maturity sufficient to lead as an example of righteousness. Number seven is ethical maturity sufficient to make responsible decisions.
35:54: Number eight is worldview maturity sufficient to understand what is really important.
36:03: Number nine is relational maturity sufficient to understand and respect others.
36:09: Number ten is social maturity sufficient to make a contribution to society.
36:15: Number eleven is verbal maturity sufficient to communicate and articulate as a man.
36:22: Number twelve is character maturity sufficient to demonstrate courage under fire.
36:28: Number thirteen is biblical maturity sufficient to lead as at some level in the church.
36:36: And the one that I think kind of stuck out to me, as a matter of fact, if I went through several of these,
36:43: I might be able to address more issues. But just an initial one that stuck out to me was number eleven, verbal maturity sufficient to communicate and articulate as a man.
36:56: And the paragraph underneath it reads, a man must be able to speak, to be understood, and to communicate in a way that will honor
37:05: God and convey God's truth to others. Beyond the context of conversation, a boy must learn how to speak before large groups, overcoming the natural intimidation and fear that comes with looking at a crowd, opening one's mouth, and projecting words.
37:23: Though not all men will become public speakers, every man should have the ability to take his ground, frame his words, and make his case when truth is under fire and when belief and conviction must be translated into argument.
37:40: And so, you know, just talking about how we communicate and communicate as men, and going back to just the juvenile adolescent way in which he was almost kind of presenting himself as a tough guy.
37:59: It says, a man must be able to speak, to be understood, and to communicate in a way that honors
38:05: God and conveys God's truth to others. And when I look at some of the videos that he puts out,
38:12: I don't think that we can describe them as communicating in a way that honors God, especially with the crassness of it.
38:20: And then also, you know, Joe, you'd probably know more about this as to whether or not he's actually communicating
38:26: God's truth. I wouldn't suspect that he really is. Well, I would have to say that there probably was a point when,
38:38: I don't know, maybe it's a lack of discernment on some of our parts that before we knew that all these things were a problem with this guy, that we didn't see these things, except we all knew there was something wrong, there was just something not quite right.
38:54: There were some videos where he gave a gospel presentation. No, he wasn't overly heady about it or anything.
39:05: He didn't use a lot of language that would be very specific. But, you know,
39:10: I think that you could argue that he has presented the gospel. I guess since he's been removed from his ministry,
39:22: I haven't watched any videos that he's done that were not something that was brought to my attention based on his kind of ridiculous demeanor and the things that he says that are very prideful.
39:37: So I can't really speak too much to the last year or so of whether or not he ends up letting the gospel slip through, so to speak.
39:48: But, yeah, I think that you're right, Tim, that if you look at almost every one of his videos, the focus is very much on him.
39:58: The words that he says are always...always.
40:04: I mean, again, I haven't watched every video, but I'd be willing to put money on it, and I am not a gambling man, that he would mention his own situation where people don't like him, talking about the haters, so to speak, every single time.
40:25: And he...as far as I know, the only people that really know who this guy is are the people that follow him and like him, and the people that now know that he's a sexual predator.
40:44: So who are these people that he's considering haters? So this is where I'm thinking that even this video here, though he doesn't say it specifically, and he doesn't name names, which he never does and he never will, he's talking about people like myself, or like,
41:02: I mean, mostly. 99 .9 % he's talking about J .D. Hall.
41:08: Because J .D. has been pretty much the number one whistleblower on everything that he's done.
41:16: You know, so much so that there's public figures, people like a woman that was on the show
41:23: The Bachelor, she was one of the contestants on The Bachelor, and apparently followed Clayton Jennings at some point, and fell into his trap as well.
41:31: It's not a secret out in the world, but again, the only people that seem to know who this guy is, is the people that he attracts, and the people that pointed out his attractions.
41:46: Well, and I also want to bring attention to an article written by Tim Hurd on our network.
41:55: It's because he actually wrote a brief article on this video that we're talking about today.
42:00: And I'll go ahead and attach the article, and it's not very long,
42:05: I'd like to read it, just because I know that sometimes, with all the content that the
42:11: Bible Thumping Wing Network puts out, sometimes these things are missed, but the article is titled,
42:17: Clayton Jennings Highlights His Genitals and References Obscene Hand Gestures in Latest Video.
42:24: So Tim published this actually on October 11th of this year, so that's really how recent this is.
42:33: But in the article, Tim writes, Jennings is a man who is running from correction.
42:39: He has been stripped of his ministry credentials. When church discipline was placed upon him, he left his home church, the same church where his father was senior pastor.
42:48: Clayton ran from God into the arms of anyone who claims to be Christian that would embrace him.
42:54: He no longer is accepted within Orthodox Christianity. He now runs among those who preach the health and wealth prosperity.
43:02: He recently held revival meetings in a church whose pastor frequently holds healing services and has been known to use a well -known parlor trick to lengthen the legs of those who suffer leg or hip discomfort.
43:22: That's pretty incredible. What a charlatan. And then
43:28: Tim provides some of the links. The reason for Clayton being under church discipline has been documented here and he has a link to an article
43:37: I believe by Pulpit and Pen. Clayton describes his rejection of Satan's lies as giving the middle finger.
43:44: He says, quote, I denied Satan's lies like Judas with a middle finger and a slow kiss.
43:51: Well, so let's just stop right there because I think Joe, one of the things that you were pointing out was the fact that, you know, who's he talking about?
44:00: What lies is he talking about? And so when he says something like this, you know,
44:07: I'm wondering, and because he's ambiguous about it, like we really can't say for certain that he's talking about those who are criticizing him.
44:19: But it does seem to be a reference to those who might be criticizing him and actually telling him to step down from ministry.
44:27: What do you think about that? Yeah, I think really it does speak to that a bit.
44:36: Like I said, there's not really a way to say for sure. And I'm sure if he if he ever listened to this by any chance, he'd probably deny that it had anything to do with any of that.
44:47: I would say more so because he probably sees us all as delusional or at least wants us all to be viewed as delusional by his audience.
44:56: And he wants us to look like the crazy people that, like he says, sits in their mother's basement or something and just wants attention or whatever.
45:07: So he thinks that if he references us by any gesture that we'll just take that and go, oh, well, at least
45:19: I got attention. But I mean, really, again, if he does hear this, you know,
45:25: I again, I would just urge him to repent. I mean, Clayton, you're not doing anything but hurting yourself and hurting other people.
45:33: You know, it's something that is very serious. And I think you already know that.
45:39: But yeah, I do think that there's a little bit of that. I think also he constantly has to deflect things like that, because in our society anymore, the more you repeat something, whether it be an argument against something or an argument for something, people tend to start believing that argument or believing in the absurdity of that argument.
46:10: So, for example, the more he repeats that these people are just haters, that they're just jealous, or these people are slanderers, the more he repeats that, the more absurd it sounds when you or I or J .D.
46:29: Hall or Tim Hurd come forward with some new information about him. It looks absurd to his followers.
46:38: And at this point, that's the only thing that matters. One of the things that I actually said directly to Clayton, which is what really led to him saying some rather nasty things to me, was
46:53: I told him he needs to apologize. It was about a different topic, but he needed to apologize for that topic to his followers, because he was using his followers in a way that I thought dishonored his followers.
47:13: And that was the last straw for him. I was actually being calm and kind, and he at that point had kind of let his guard down.
47:22: He had apologized to some of us for the way that he was acting and things like that. And I just said, you know,
47:30: I appreciate your apology, but you also need to apologize to your audience. And at that point, he could not deal with that, and I think that's indicative of his overall attitude.
47:42: It is all about the spotlight for him. And I think that this video is partially that, as well as it's actually, surprisingly enough, it's promoting a book for somebody else.
47:57: I don't know why anybody would want this attached to their name. Well, maybe because, you know, it's funny, when people become self -promoting, they'll take almost anyone who will promote them.
48:16: So, you know, that might be why. But let me ask you this, Joe, and then we can go ahead and wrap it up here.
48:24: What is your purpose in bringing this to light on a podcast and talking about somebody like Clayton Jennings?
48:36: You know, I think that most of the people that are in the Bible -thumping wing that would probably agree with us on this one, that some of the stuff that we're seeing coming from Clayton Jennings is not good and should be pointed out.
48:57: But what was the reason that you wanted to talk about this on our podcast?
49:06: Well, there's a few different reasons. One thing, you know, I didn't want to bring any more attention to him than needed.
49:17: But, you know, inevitably, any time you critique anybody, you're going to bring more attention to them in a similar way that I don't think he wants any more attention brought to us.
49:28: You know, even looking at his video, he has just over 15 ,000 views on it, when some of his other videos have over 100 ,000 or 600 ,000 views.
49:41: You know, he has a lot of views, but this one didn't really get that many. So I kind of hesitated to do anything, and that's hence why it's been, you know, a week or two since he's released a video.
49:53: But my main reason is kind of warning the sheep, you know, so to speak.
49:58: He talked about us not being sheep, but the people that he's leading are sheep, and many of them goats,
50:08: I'm sure. And he is, in that sense, he is a wolf that's prowling the field and just waiting for the shepherd to turn his back.
50:19: And at this point, you know, we aren't the shepherd, you know, Christ is everyone's shepherd, but Christ does tell us to point to the wolves, to mark them, and, you know, make it known that they're there.
50:36: And at this point, Clayton is way past the stage of calling him a wolf in sheep's clothing.
50:43: I think he's just a wolf. I don't think that there's much clothing left, you know, no pun intended, please.
50:52: I think that he's dangerous.
50:58: I think not only spiritually, but temporally in this world, I think that he's actually a predator.
51:05: And, you know, I also want people in the audience to pray for his family, to pray for his wife, pray for his new daughter, pray for his father as well, as a lot of this seems to have gone by.
51:20: The wayside as a result of his help, you know, it's a big problem throughout his entire family.
51:27: And I think he's drug their name through the dirt pretty badly. So I want to pray for him.
51:34: I want to pray for his family. And I want to pray for his followers. And I also want to sound the alarm about him as often as I possibly can, when the opportunity appoints itself.
51:48: And what would repentance look like?
51:56: You know, you're calling him to repent. So what would that look like? What do you, as someone who's had direct contact with him, as someone who's calling him out and calling other people to watch out for him, what does that look like in your perspective for him to repent?
52:16: Well, I mean, ultimately, the Bible makes a distinction between an earthly repentance and a godly repentance.
52:26: You know, the earthly repentance brings sorrow. You know, you can essentially feel bad for the things that you've done.
52:33: But ultimately, it's not from God. You know, godly repentance brings about a change of mind.
52:40: And it's been clear that Clayton has not had a change of mind.
52:49: Like I said, I think that this video is indicative of him having the mindset that his sexuality and the way that he presents himself sexually is what makes him a man.
53:01: And that makes me think that during all of those sexual encounters with those women, that he believed that and that he still believes that.
53:09: And at that point, that tells me that his mind has not been changed. He has not experienced that metanoia, that it is ultimately a gift from God.
53:20: God is the only one that can grant that to him. But God still gives us the responsibility.
53:29: We are still responsible. And pretty much, I call him to beg for forgiveness.
53:39: Beg it from his audience. Beg it from the women that he's abused. Beg it from God, number one.
53:46: Beg forgiveness. Treat it, at this point, like you're standing before God at judgment.
53:54: Don't wait that long. But Clayton, get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness for this.
54:03: Jesus is a wonderful Savior. He died on that cross for sins such as that.
54:13: And really what I think stops a lot of us, myself included,
54:20: I've had moments of unrepentance. And when I'm ultimately thinking only of myself, and I obviously at that point don't think lowly enough of that sin, and the only reason a lot of people end up repenting is because they get caught at something.
54:39: And what that ends up being tends to be a representation of that earthly, worldly sorrow that does not lead to actual repentance.
54:51: Yeah, I think it's important to point out basically what you just said is that unfortunately a lot of times people will say they're sorry merely as a means of self -preservation.
55:03: And, you know, for me, hearing about Clayton Jennings and some of the stuff that's happened, it is just clear that he is not fit for ministry.
55:18: And because he's still putting himself out there in ministry really is,
55:24: I think, a strong indication that he's not repented. Because I think that in a situation like this where allegations of preying on women have come forward,
55:37: I think that really you need to stop putting yourself out there. Repent and get yourself off of a platform and stop making these juvenile videos to look cool with a soft piano playing in the background.
55:55: And, you know, it's a well put together video, but that would be my concern is that him continuing to put himself out there.
56:08: But, you know, go for it, Joseph. There you go. So, you know, Joe, you referenced part of 2
56:17: Corinthians 7 .10. I wanted to just kind of finish off that verse because you were talking about the difference between a godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow.
56:29: And so the verse goes like this. It's 2 Corinthians 7 .10.
56:34: For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces repentance without regret, leading to salvation.
56:44: But the sorrow of this world produces death. And so I think it's there being the distinct distinction between the two kinds of sorrow.
56:59: The worldly sorrow produces death. That temporary regret for consequences or the desire to avoid consequences is not saving.
57:10: It is leading to death. And so when you see somebody who apologizes, you know, for what they did, and then they keep on doing it the way he did, and they continue the pattern of it, and you keep on hearing about people coming forward about him.
57:29: We have enough witnesses in which one can lay charges. So we're biblically, you know, good to go forward on that.
57:39: Man, it, by all appearances, would be a worldly sorrow. And based on the way he's talking in his video and his approach to his opponents, as it were, the scripture actually teaches us to approach our opponents differently than he does.
57:57: But in addition to that, it's showing a lot of pride, a lot of arrogance, and the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
58:07: So I think that he makes it painfully clear to anybody with eyes to see where he's at and where he's coming from.
58:14: And yes, I think it's, you know, on any medium we can where we could point out somebody like this that people need to watch out for, maybe not for themselves, but for their friends, that they pray for him as well, that he repent, but also that they protect themselves and their friends from people like him.
58:30: Also kind of to address anybody that might be kind of looking at us like we're just nitpicking at, you know, how repentant somebody is, you know, oh, well, he didn't repent as good as you do, you know, anything like that.
58:45: But even if you don't think that we're being fair in that and saying that the repentance that he had was actually what we would expect from somebody to actually be penitent, we would point you to how he's reacting to his elders.
59:10: Again, that article that I referenced at the beginning of the show at Palpit and Pen, go ahead and go read that.
59:17: It talks about how his elders revoked his license and pretty much told him, step down from the ministry, you're no longer qualified to do this.
59:27: At that point, you know, we are called to be under our elders, especially if we're going to be in a ministry like that.
59:37: And at that point, I believe that he's in sin just in the sake that he is not listening to his eldership.
59:44: So if at any point you think, oh, well, you know, I don't think that that's a problem,
59:49: I would argue that he's currently living in sin and disobedience to his elders.
59:58: And just to touch on something you said, I think that somebody who is asking that question doesn't understand what repentance is.
01:00:06: So if we're saying he's not being repentant enough, then we don't understand what repentance is.
01:00:12: That would be, they might mean that he's not being sorrowful enough, right? And that would be the charge we would levy, but that wouldn't be, we would say he's not repentant.
01:00:22: He hasn't had a change of mind. He hasn't turned away from that because he continues in it.
01:00:29: And so nobody is repentant enough and not repentant enough in so much as there needs to be a change of mind, which is the idea of the word.
01:00:39: We're not saying he's not sorrowful enough. We're saying that the fruit of his heart, which he makes manifest, as Jesus says, you know, a tree by its fruit, it would seem that the sorrow that he had was not a godly sorrow.
01:00:53: Yeah, and I would leave with one last thing that I want to make the distinction as well, mainly just with my interactions with Mormons, and I know this isn't about Mormonism, but there is a misunderstanding about repentance among people that have a works -based righteousness system.
01:01:15: That repentance then also means that you fully stop doing any sin that you had previously repented of.
01:01:26: And that's also not the definition of repentance. What we're talking about with showing evidence of repentance is bearing fruit in consistency with that repentance.
01:01:37: So an example of that would be him stepping down from his ministry as ordered by his eldership.
01:01:44: If he isn't concerned with just his image or maintaining his audience and all these things, that shouldn't be a problem.
01:01:54: At that point, you've lost the ability to preach the gospel because your eldership took that ability from you.
01:02:01: So if your only concern was preaching the gospel, well then, you should step down.
01:02:07: But I think that at that point, we can at least say in that instance, and not just with that, but at that point with that instance, that's an example of him going directly against that which he said he's repented of.
01:02:23: Yeah, I think you guys hit the nail on the head. I think it's a good place to wrap this up.
01:02:29: Joe, I want to say thank you for wanting to bring this to light. I know that it's never easy addressing topics like this, but I really appreciate you leading us in our discussion today about the issues that pertain to Clayton Jennings.
01:02:47: I am going to link several articles by Pulpit and Pen and also by Tim Hurd so that our listeners can also read up on this.
01:02:59: We are going to be praying for Clayton Jennings and hope that God will bring him to repentance as we would hope to see.
01:03:13: Again, I want to say thank you to Joseph and Joe for coming on the show.
01:03:21: I hope that it's not another six months before we hear from you guys again. I really like having you guys as part of Semper Reformanda Radio.
01:03:31: Hopefully, you'll be hearing from these guys more frequently, more often. I don't know.
01:03:38: We'll see. We'll try to coordinate our schedules and make it happen. In the meantime,