Andy Stanley, Concupiscence, & Embracing Homosexuality

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We are live on the conversations that matter podcast at about a 1257 or so maybe a little before that I logged in to Get the podcast started and I got the black screen of death.

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And so my computer just totally froze and I couldn't do anything control.

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I'll delete wasn't working.

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So I had to restart it So for those asking, you know, isn't John's podcast supposed to start? Yeah, I was supposed to start 10 minutes ago, but I had to get everything back up and running and so hopefully it all works out I'm not sure why that happened, but Yeah, if it keeps happening I'll have to do something about that maybe I'll have to switch to Mac I know some of you you that's your thing.

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You love Mac computers.

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I've been raised on Microsoft.

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So I Don't know what I can tell you Old habits, right? So anyway, we it looks like we're working here.

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If you can hear me Let me know just so I can make sure everything's working.

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Someone says I'm on good Okay, so we have the numbers climbing as people are coming into the stream Yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about this and Lee Stanley thing I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but I want to relate it to something that I've been Thinking about and Jared Moore actually has a new book coming out on concupiscence on the lust of the flesh.

01:18

I think is the title and I was skimming through some of the things that he wrote in there and I'm planning on doing a review of the book I may be having him on the podcast But I think I want to play a clip I might play it again in a podcast with him or a podcast on concupiscence in the future but I want to play it today and maybe we'll get started with that clip actually and we'll just jump into it because This is a montage.

01:45

I made this actually months ago of some popular Roman Catholic apologists thinkers and What they have to say about concupiscence, which is you know, basically it's the Latin term for for desire but It's their View of this their view especially when it comes to this is where it gets.

02:08

I would say Applicational and the divergences are clearly seen on the issue of same-sex attraction their view is different than the Protestant view or the reformed Protestant view and So I want to highlight that a little bit before we get started and then you can ask yourself The question is what Andy Stanley saying is that is the basic error or at least one of the basic errors? And I think it is the basic error.

02:32

He's making related to this.

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Is he adopting a teaching? That's not it's not really a biblical teaching or maybe even or a Protestant teaching but I'm not saying he's getting this directly from Roman Catholicism, but at the very least it parallels a Difference that I thought was hashed out in the Reformation so We will get into that.

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So Trudell asked if I saw the James White debate on side B.

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I did not know Sorry, I've heard about it a little bit I think one one or two people told me about it, but I have not seen it.

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So Maybe we'll talk about that.

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I don't know.

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How was it? I did had y'all think it was if any of you saw it, let me know in the chat section here All right, so we're gonna start off with some clips these aren't from Andy Stanley We're gonna get to the Andy Stanley stuff in due course but I want to start off with some clips from some Roman Catholic apologists on this topic of concupiscence and and specifically same-sex attraction, how does their concept of Concupiscence and whether or not that is a sin to have desires before you're acting on them basically whether or not that is in itself a sin or sinful so Let's let's get there.

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Let's see if I can pull it up.

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Here we go catechism paragraph 1264 just for the folks who may not know what that says it says yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized such as suffering illness death and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character and so on as well as an inclination to sin that tradition calls Concupiscence or metaphorically the tender for sin fomus picante in Latin, right? Since concupiscence is left for us to wrestle with it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ indeed an Athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules the Catholic Church catechism states Homosexual persons are called to chastity by the virtues of self mastery that teach them their inner freedom at times by the support of disinterested Friendship by prayer and sacramental grace they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection The church is not saying that the desire is a sin See actions are sins Desires are not because you can't be charged with a sin for something you didn't choose something You can't be in control of but once we have these attractions to whatever then I need to choose how I behave So is concupiscence a sin see the the Protestants? Confused concupiscence with sin, you know that that original sin is in us and We are still in sin and concupiscence is proof of it.

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It's it's sin in us.

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You see that's wrong It's so it's not a sin in itself Sin comes from the will that's a very important point Okay, well there you have it that's a number of different Catholic Apologists and teachers I think accurately depicting the doctrine of the Catholic Church on this question of same-sex attraction and concupiscence more broadly and What you'll notice and I think Andy Stanley Goes past this.

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I don't think they would approve of where Andy Stanley's taken this necessarily, but what I'm trying to do is show you that They're the basic error that I think Rome Advocates on this particular question is that sins can only be sins if they are of the will that that's the only place that sin essentially resides so if it's there's a There's desires there's Temptations attractions inclinations whatever term you want to use that someone can have for something That God has not ordained that is wrong.

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That is sinful.

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We're that person to actually Carry out the desires that they have but the Catholic Church has determined that those things are not actually in themselves sin, and the reason for this really is That once you're baptized That in Catholic doctrine the baptism takes away original sin So when you still sin right you still commit errors there has to be a category for that for the Christian who's been baptized So it's it's a willful sin in that sense.

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It's not original sin, and it's not something that If you have a desire for you are necessarily guilty of so they create a category there and And that's the reason they create this category.

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So so essentially someone who Is baptized into the Roman Catholic Church who the original sin has been essentially taken away But there's still this this these sinful actions at some point They can't originate from deep within because that's already been taken care of.

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I'm oversimplifying here, but But I don't think I'm being inaccurate to what the doctrine actually teaches And and I hope to get into this a little more in some future podcasts So my point wasn't to get deep into Catholic doctrine in this podcast But just to start it off with showing that this is probably foreign to you If you grew up in a Protestant Church, you didn't hear this kind of thing Especially when it comes to the sin of covetousness we were told in in just about every gospel presentation We were told that God looks at the desires of your heart that The secret sins the things that no one knows about except yourself God knows about and so he's gonna judge you according to those things So this is probably familiar for most of the audience who happens to be Protestant I know there are a few Catholic Roman Catholics who Do listen to this podcast in Eastern Orthodox? So if you are listening, hey, let me know what you think about my depiction here and where you think I could have well, I'm not giving a full full description, but at least What you think of my description my limited description here of concupiscence, but anyway you heard the the clips That's what Rome teaches now I Want to bring this into the Stanley discussion because we're gonna go over a number of clips from Andy Stanley He preached a sermon last Sunday protest TIA Actually had someone I guess send them the audio so they captured the audio and post it online and go to protest Yeah calm and find that I Took the audio and cleaned it up more So the link to this video you'll find a cleaned up version of that because in I think the original version someone was sitting in the audience recording on their iPhone or something and so you hear some background noise and things and so I tried to clean some of that out of it but But I'm gonna play some of that clip and we're gonna talk about a little bit as we go so let's start here Hopefully everyone can hear that I'm gonna see if I can turn the volume as high as I can for you In different parts of the world, especially with missionary organizations and churches who look to us for leadership and all of a sudden Okay, so I want to start by saying that this is an admission that Outlets like protest TIA like this podcast and like many others who have focused on Andy Stanley's errors have been largely successful in Convincing Christians who maybe listen to Stanley that he's not correct biblically when he approaches this topic of homosexuality and same-sex attraction and So this is something that I Think is it an encouragement in a way? I at least I take it that way that It does have an effect you do have an effect out there when you share these kinds of videos around And so Stanley has to he's forced to react to some of the criticism He's gotten which we've talked about on this podcast before for conferences.

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He's hosted and things.

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He said about this topic of homosexuality So and for those who don't know I should probably say this to Andy Stanley is the son of Charles Stanley He was very instrumental in the Southern Baptist Conventions conservative resurgence.

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He's got a mega church North Point Church in in Georgia, I believe and he is The He has a big name.

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We'll put it that way.

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So it's it's not like he's controlling an entire denomination But you'll hear later I think I included the clip where he talks about missionaries and others being impacted because of any connection to North Point and to Stanley Because of the criticisms against him from more Orthodox believers who are concerned about his stance So an encouraging thing just to get started here that hey the pressure does it doesn't mean something When it's good biblical pressure of this is what the Bible says is what you're saying Draws lines and Jesus drew circles He drew circles so large and included so many people in his circle that it consistently made religious leaders Nervous and his circle was big enough to include sinners like me So he says that Jesus in this talk, which is about 50 minutes.

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So I've taken about what seven minutes of it you can go listen to the whole thing if you want all the context, but he says that the difference between Jesus and I think he's reacting to an Al Mohler article ironically is that The criticisms against him aren't the kinds of things Jesus would say Jesus wouldn't criticize Andy Stanley for embracing same-sex attraction as a legitimate category and Hosting conferences that really do affirm LGBT type activities and identities and that kind of thing because Jesus he says the pattern of Jesus was drawing circles and and and that meant expanding the tent of Christianity into sinners so that so obviously though the key problem with this and I think everyone should be able to recognize this hopefully is that What he's doing is he's assuming that when Jesus sat down with sinners and tax gatherers who were repentant Who wanted to come to Jesus because they wanted the life in Christ that he offered and they did not They wanted to reject their sin for a better life for the true life that Christ brings that that somehow that creates this legitimate category for living as a Christian Without mortifying these desires somehow with keeping these desires around these sinful desires that you're not gonna find that anywhere Jesus doesn't expand to adulterers into zealots who were involved in you know nefarious activities tax gatherers, but you know, whatever the Evil people of that time were publicly known as evil Had reputations of evil those kinds of people he didn't say well you can you you can be an adulterer still in your heart But you just can't Act on it anymore, and that's that's me expanding the circle.

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So so I there's adulterers in the circle No such were some of you, right? They were repentant.

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That was the whole con.

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That was the whole premise of when Jesus told the Pharisees It's those who are sick who need a doctor who need a healer.

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So it was Sick people who wanted to get better And Andy Stanley has to kind of ignore that if he wants to make this argument about Christ at least pretty basic stuff here but somehow this is This is what's passing for preaching in Andy Stanley's church I think it's Tom that first came to me.

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He said Andy More and more middle school students are coming out to their small group leaders about their same-sex attraction And we'd already seen this begin to happen with high school students coming out to their small group leaders And so Tom and Kevin said hey any our small group leaders and our you know, our volunteers They just don't feel equipped to talk to a middle school or a high school student about same-sex attraction And would you put together a training to help our leaders? Um, you know what to do with this? Well to me That is an extraordinary way.

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This is you know, this is almost 10 years ago once upon a time I don't take this once upon a time the last place a middle school student or a high school student Was going to talk about their same-sex attraction the last place they were going to talk about it was where? In church and now they feel confident and they feel connected to where they can talk about the most Sensitive area of their life with their small group leader in church I'm telling you I'm so proud of our church and our volunteers and this incredible system that Kevin engineered all those years ago That's so relational So this is a double down stanley's saying that Everything that's happened at north point church in regards to this issue Has been has yielded positive fruit.

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And so that fruit though Is manifested in the approachability of the leadership So people with same-sex attraction are willing to come and talk about it to the leadership and that is his measure of success and and so I will just note that if that is the only measure of success at least the there's a major problem because You can have people people feel very affirmed and approached able to approach leaders in just about any secular academic or I guess media or you know really any Medical establishment any any institution you can think of outside the church about now in 2023 people feel fairly confident talking about their homosexuality so you you have to look at this as if Andy stanley is saying we've caught up to them We're just like them now in that sense that people feel confident talking about something that before caused so much shame, but now Uh, they're willing to to do that and and I do want to say, you know there is this um There is a truth to if someone's a repentant sinner and they're coming to you saying I have a problem You do want approachability in your church.

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That's absolutely true.

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You don't want there to be such a climate of like a condemnation For someone who's actually trying to repent from a sin but um at the same time That those conversations need to be about the repentance and about solving the issue right and and not just making the metric Talking about it and they feel comfortable.

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Well, you know good.

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Um, and and there should be some shame attached to some of this it should be Something that you know, you don't really want to talk about necessarily because it's it's embarrassing.

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It's shameful I mean those public shame is a powerful force.

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It's actually can be a very good thing when it's um, when it corresponds with god's plan and his his law because it's what actually prevents people from going farther than they would because they Uh, you know that might be the last line of defense But they don't want to suffer the embarrassment of doing something that people consider evil and shameful so, uh So there should be some shame but but despite the shame there should be an approachability For those who want to actually repent is that what's andy's talking about? He's not really making those qualifications But he's but he's just making the the conversation is happening and that means that we're in the right spot somehow truth is majority Acknowledge that at some point in their lives they ask god to take it In my experience i've talked to many many many many gay men in particular And I would say they don't just ask god to take it away They beg god to take it away.

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They weep and ask god to take it Away, they're afraid of disappointing their parents Depending on the church that they attend They are literally afraid they are going to heaven Not because of anything they've done but because of who they are because of the message not of culture the message the church Okay, so we've heard this so many times we've talked about on this podcast, uh in particular this idea that Because people who experience, uh, same-sex attraction um because they They're embarrassed about it.

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They feel in in the context of the church.

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They feel somehow Judged by it and those kinds of things that there's all these negative consequences, uh that come from that and it's just a horrible thing that there's churches that Harbor these these kinds of sentiments against same-sex attracted people.

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This is where you get living outs audit For to make sure your church is safe right for this that's uh, you know Sam albury's I guess organization He was at least a co-founder and and tim keller was one of the ones who was instrumental in bringing that out years ago to help churches navigate this issue by being sensitive to those kinds of feelings Um, but they're not they're focused if you notice the focus is shifted it's it's on man The focus is totally on How does man feel? Uh in this particular situation, um, is there a way to make them feel more comfortable? Instead of looking at okay.

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What does god say about this? We wouldn't really do this with any other sin and I think that holds true for every clip i'm going to play here from andy stanley, you know substitute any other sin that's The world let's say considers really bad and you it would make no sense for a church to then soft pedal it or try to be so sensitive to the the people who commit that sin and and Are are fine with it.

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I guess having those desires still to commit that sin and want to be affirmed in that somehow um Being comfortable and feeling accepted in a christian situation Let's play the next clip here Ours should be Ours should be the last generation of parents and families in the local church who go through this experience feeling Isolated and without help in other words, let's put an end to this Let's create communities inside of our church where again as I said to that group, you know, almost 10 years ago The church should be the safest place on the planet for students to talk about anything including same-sex attraction And the church should be the safest place on the planet for parents to talk about anything Including their kids who are struggling with and wrestling with same-sex attraction or their kids that have just come out and embrace the identity of mom dad i'm gay So the church is a safe space now is what you're hearing Which is really what I said earlier.

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I mean, let's catch up to what the world's doing Let's make a safe space here for that particular sin and it's just interesting he focuses on that and not He doesn't broaden it.

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It's not.

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Um, maybe he would have given the opportunity maybe in other sermons he has but You know, would he take some of the sins that uh, or even sometimes? They're not even sins, but they're uh They could be sin adjacent or connected to sin or they might not even be sin at all It's just the world happens to have their own metric and in their metric It's it's evil, but but think about like, you know, uh misogyny sexism, uh racism um All the buzzwords anti-semitism kinism, uh think about um, even some of the sexual sins that are still considered taboo like pedophilia or polygamy right and would you Preach a sermon in which you would take any of those sins and fill them into that spot and say Someone with uh pedophilia, um inclinations desires Uh, we think that they should feel comfortable and it's so horrible that they we don't have a safe space in the church for them It sounds kind of weird even when I say it because we know innately that That's that's something that's morally evil and it should be dealt with if some and I I believe i'm consistent on this I do think people with those Uh inclinations or those those temptations those attractions those sinful feelings should go to their pastor And they should talk about that.

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They should seek help Uh christian help for those kinds of things.

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They should feel comfortable Sharing those things in the sense that their pastor at least is going to help them through it but they should not feel comfortable in the sense that they're going to continue to be accepted and Their and their desires are going to be seen as acceptable somehow and people aren't going to uh think uh less of them or think less of their christian walk if they have those desires because There's a problem with your christian walk if you have desires like that, um, it's the lust of the flesh Uh, it's it's it's of the world.

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It's it and look every christian struggles with um, sins at times in their life No matter what the sin is but it doesn't mean that those things are somehow acceptable or those things are somehow part of Can live alongside the identity one has in christ so Time went by they wrote a book called embracing the journey last year Greg and lynn then reached out and said hey, we want to do a conference.

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We do all of our ministry You know digitally but we'd like to do a conference that we can invite parents with lgbtq plus kids And we want to invite some experts to talk to them to help them take their next step make sure that they're healthy Personally, make sure that their marriages are healthy as they you know continue this journey with their precious Children we're going to call it the unconditional conference And so of course we said well sure.

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I mean we've already we've been in this space for 10 years Why wouldn't we host the conference? well As soon as they began marketing the conference all the christian critics pounced They were what they said about greg and lynn was cruel.

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They said about debbie causey and alice cruel They said about you was cruel.

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You need to flee the church and he's a heretic He's sending people to hell, you know, I often saw some of the stuff.

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Hopefully not.

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I look at it all I never turn away from criticism.

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It's the only way to learn and sometimes I go, huh? Hope happens, baby I will say this for those who are, uh, you know gay affirming and Uh, they like what andy stanley's been doing you should notice that andy stanley even in that joke He is admitting that the people who are his worst critics in his mind will be in heaven with him So just just saying, you know if andy's he's trying to have it both ways and so he he's not condemning them to uh to hell for their uh condemnation of what north point's doing but he is uh He is against what they're saying.

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He is against their criticism, even though he's saying he's trying to Learn from it now the book he's talking about here that's being criticized that they used they held a conference with these people Is by greg and lynn mcdonald and it's called embracing the journey and I figured I would just show you one page just to Give you a little idea of like the kinds of things you can find in that particular book.

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So here it is This is on page 134 Over the years I said lynn and I attended had attended dozens of weddings.

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Sometimes we knew the couple were very well Sometimes we knew either the bride or the groom Sometimes we only knew the parents More than a few couples in those weddings had been living together for years before they tied the knot And though lynn and I believe that god created sex to be enjoyed only within the boundaries of marriage We never avoided a wedding because of the couple's previous sex life We never felt like our presence was somehow putting a christian stamp of approval on their choices.

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So look where they take this Knowing that about ourselves lynn and I would attend the same-sex weddings of our friends And perhaps someday of our son as a way of loving them and maintaining a presence and influence in their lives So this is the kind of thing you find in this book and it's important for you to me to mention this just because Andy stanley's trying to make out that what north point's doing is they're helping these hurting kids and hurting Um people who attend their church along by providing comfort and encouragement and Uh that they haven't really you'll hear in a minute.

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They haven't changed their stance on marriage or any of these things.

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It's really just them trying to Be what christians are called to be to be encouragers and Part of though the encouragement this is key here Is affirming things like that saying, you know, i'll yeah i'll go support my son's same-sex wedding I'll go and be part of that uh I'll go to friends who are participating in that kind of thing.

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I'll go to their weddings and so it's It's actually endorsement like it's not just encouragement to flee the sin.

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It's an endorsement of the lifestyle sin the pattern of error that they are That they are stuck in it best case scenario and you're embracing it You're you're showing them that it's not really that big of a deal because you're gonna out of love Here's the thing though out of love.

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Would you? Support someone who's involved in some kind of an another sin.

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That's equally.

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Um, according to you know The old testament to wave odds abomination.

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Would you go and support another abomination because it's it's loving I mean look i'll visit someone in jail if they Commit a a crime if they steal something or they rape someone or they they rob or these are all still things that You know, most people would agree are bad Thankfully and they are I would go visit someone in jail, but i'm not going to go while they are in the midst of committing the crime and clap for them or make my give them an approval by showing up and not trying to stop them or You know when when the objection phase comes up, is there anyone who would well if that still comes up in ceremony So is there anyone who would object to? the this marriage, you know, you're obligated if you're in the audience, I mean you have to like That that's just there is an objection, of course there is so um, let's let's keep going here with andy stanley and Just listen to every clip was terrible.

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Just every clip has so many holes in it But we're going to continue here.

29:44

We're about maybe 33 through uh, the clips that I had queued As our sides you can find individuals who believe just about anything everything and nothing The better question perhaps is this question, what do we teach? What do we teach your children? Your grandchildren, what do we teach about these issues? And it's the same thing we have taught for 28 years.

30:08

Nothing has changed again I tell you all the time same do not raise their kids in these environments.

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We are thoroughly satisfied Customers i've just thought that somebody is leaving our church over misinformation and pulling their kids out of our fabulous environments That breaks my heart their parents are going to be fine You'd find with preaching, you know, just about anywhere, but the environments that we've created for kids are they are the best Again, thoroughly satisfied customers, but as it relates to sexuality.

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Here's what we teach And hopefully you know this I feel like if you've been coming for a while There should be no question about this, but I don't mind just putting it out there We teach what I refer to as a new testament sexual ethic In fact, I wrote a whole book about this the new rules for love sex and dating My son Andrew calls it loving sex and dating i'm like that's not the name of the book Anyway, so so so he's talking about uh, he's trying to show that there's been a consistency he's saying We here at north point church have not changed anything people are just I guess woke up one morning and decided to attack us You know, why didn't they attack us 15 years ago? We've been saying the same thing Well, the fact is they haven't been they've been moving in a certain direction but his defense is That here's what the new testament teaches and here's what we affirm And so if you remember from previous episodes Andy stanley does not think christians are bound to follow old testament law at all Even the moral principles there.

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It's it's really strictly new testament.

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He's uh He he's really heretical on that topic.

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I don't know how else to uh frame it And and so when he says new testament ethic, he's trying to limit it to what the new testament says Of course the new testament those imports the categories from the old testament.

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That's inescapable Uh, you the original audiences would not have understood especially the judy, uh, jewish audiences What these categories are what porneia encapsulated? Um when jesus talked about it, they they knew because they already had the old testament Playing in their minds.

32:02

They knew what it was talking about what jesus was talking about So, um, i'll let andy continue here and you can listen to his defense from middle school to high school to college to single To marriage to single single again every age stage of life This is what we teach whether a student is straight or gay or questioning This is what we say Hey if you're going to follow jesus while you're figuring this out if you're going to follow jesus as you Struggle with your identity or some of the things you're feeling as you're as you're if you're going to follow jesus Here's what it looks like sexually to follow jesus And the reason your heavenly father has called you to live this way is because he loves you.

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But here it is It's just three statements.

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Number one honor god with your body because The holy spirit lives in you and your body is how people know what you believe in where you stand and your behavior through your body Is to exemplify the goodness of god and the grace of god and the love of god So you always honor god with your body and you always honor other people's bodies number two Don't be mastered by anything not by porn not by a sexual addiction.

33:06

Don't be mastered by another person Don't be mastered by your infatuation, don't be mastered by your lust don't be mastered by anything you have a master And he's a king And he loves you and he created you and he knows what's best for you And number three the old-fashioned one don't sexualize a relationship outside of marriage.

33:25

That is so old-fashioned No sex before married.

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Well, if you're not married, I mean who even teaches that anymore? Always have Always will And when people think we've listened to it before, you know wandering away from this this earlier this year Joel thomas did this amazing series called intimate encounters and one of the messages it was specifically about Fidelity in marriage and sexual purity outside of marriage and I mean he deals with right on the nose And at the end of the message in one campus at least people broke out clapping Like yes, we're glad somebody believes that and here's why we're not going to blink on this And i've asked You know people in crowds this question i've asked many people dozens of people over the you know To ask this question.

34:14

Hey has sex outside of marriage made your life better or has it made it more complicated? Has sex outside of marriage made the person you had sex with did it make their life better or did it make their lives more complicated? So We're going to keep playing the clip, but just reminder for everyone the three new testament sexual ethic rules here are honor god with your body Don't be mastered By anything and don't sexualize relationships outside of marriage.

34:40

So he's narrowed Everything down to these three points now if you Read what the new testament says about these three points if you go to passages like Romans chapter one obviously is probably the standard and most um I would say obvious passage where you find teaching on homosexuality then It's disqualified from these broad principles, but but this is a tactic that um You see people who want to somehow Justify women pastors and other things that would be acceptable to the world And are kind of now seen as archaic in the church.

35:19

That's how things used to be.

35:20

They shouldn't be that way anymore They often will justify things based on very broad principles Sometimes it's nothing more than uh, we're supposed to love other people and that means getting an experimental jab, right? so That's what happens When you try to soft pedal sin i've seen that If you're trying to justify it biblically is you you go you appeal to very broad categories and then you insert in those broad categories what you think uh should be honoring god with your body, um not being mastered by anything And not sexualizing relationships outside of marriage.

35:52

I mean you you could go through these and you could say well um I'm honoring god with my body by being monogamous with this particular person of the same sex i'm not being mastered by it because I'm i'm not addicted to it.

36:07

I'm not there's other things in my life that i'm i'm doing and it's not causing a problem in my life and then You could say well i'm i'm marrying the person right? Uh, this is the kind of stance the world would really have no problem with this because they'd say okay Yeah, you're christian and you're you know, maybe some would think that the the marriage thing's kind of old-fashioned, but I think that's andy's Safety mechanism.

36:28

He's trying to appeal to that to show christians who are criticizing him that see i'm still old-fashioned I still believe in the biblical sexual ethics says you got to be married to have sex and You know, that's that's within the church.

36:43

That's acceptable to the world though For if most of the time I would say people think okay if you're keeping that in the church don't impose it on me But if you keep it in the church, and that's what you believe fine but you should never um say that gay marriages are illegitimate or That they're wrong or sinful or that kind of thing and that's where andy goes wrong.

37:04

So Someone mentioned in chat.

37:07

He's a marcionite.

37:07

Yes, that that would be I think a fair description of andy's view of the old testament He definitely follows a marcion trajectory an ancient church heresy All right.

37:17

Let's keep listening to what andy has to say here and honest people say Yeah, it's created some Complications Well, then what do you expect your heavenly father to say who loves you and loves the person whose life you may have set back? What do you think their heavenly father's going to say about sexual activity? When oftentimes our sex outside of marriage makes you a liar for life Because you're never going to tell the truth about your past because you're too ashamed What what did you expect? So the the message is the same for everybody sex is for married people Regarding marriage and this feels weird to even say this but just make sure everybody knows where we are We talk about marriage or we talk about and teach about marriage the same way jesus and the apostles did Every instruction in the bible regarding marriage references or assumes a husband and a wife a man or a woman So biblical marriage Biblical marriage is between a man and a woman We've never shied away from that.

38:23

We don't change the words in order not to offend people now Here's what may surprise all of us straight people The gay attenders in our churches.

38:33

They aren't shocked that we talk that way They are shocked by that they expect that they grew up on that They hoped for that okay, two things because he's going in a direction here where he's creating a sense of sympathy or maybe empathy for The people who attend the churches he's saying they're right next to you.

39:01

They're they're in the pew next to you perhaps I don't know if they use pews at his church, but but They're they're here among us worshiping the same as you and yet, you know, they They they don't have a problem with anything.

39:15

I just said that's what he's trying to say is that look i'm acceptable to them to gay people Now, um, I I just went through the three principles before and said hey you could easily infuse anything you want into this You could you could even justify gay marriage based on what andy's uh saying here And of course he's had people who seem to at least on some level endorse same-sex marriage uh be involved in conferences and he's defending it, but then he turns around and he says At our church.

39:41

We also do believe marriage is between a man and a woman so If that's the case Then why promote people why have people come in to participate in conferences who are uh Who are at the very least? Putting a crack in that They are saying that Go on a certain level endorse these evil ceremonies And do so because it's in the name of love this is I think the dance that you're going to be seeing more and more from a lot of so-called evangelical leaders who And not just evangelicals.

40:23

I mean this is going to be I think this is a lot of different traditions within christendom.

40:28

The mormons have certainly capitulated on this big time.

40:31

Um More and more there's a pressure To somehow find a third way find a way between the biblical sexual ethic the true one That forbids the things the old testament also forbade and at the same time, um tries to Harmonize itself with what the world is currently engaged in and thinks is acceptable So and there's all kinds of strange recipes floating around about this.

41:01

Some people will say well inside the church We have this but outside it's fine you can even have same-sex marriages and A lot of people are going down that road and they think that they're going to buy time or buy acceptance by doing that Uh, some are you know taking all kinds of contradictory positions and he's kind of in that camp i'd say he's he's definitely Promoting and affirming the desires the same-sex attractions and all those kinds of things and and he does it on the basis of god hasn't taken away people are People want to get rid of them, but they're not getting rid of them and they're they're good christians and so Somehow they're still acceptable um, but yeah, I mean they can't really get married I guess but Uh, but again, I mean even he's he's partnering with people who are to the left of him according to what he's saying here on this question, so I I look at it as a trajectory and the final state of the um, the train that andy's on is going to lead to a full embracement of this But along the way he's getting criticism because look he was he's got what was an evangelical church and was at least uh According to the reputation of his father certainly was a strong conservative evangelical And so he's this is hedging I think against the criticism and i'm not saying he's not sincere in it Maybe he believes this but but it's a direction that he's headed.

42:23

This isn't consistent.

42:24

He hasn't he hasn't said these things He didn't hold a conference uh on trying to somehow affirm and um help parents with children who have these particular attractions and And What they think of as orientations he didn't do that 15 years ago hold a conference on that and and how to um To counsel them so that they can somehow affirm their kids and let their kids know that they're they're very loved and and and that means also Accepting them and accepting their uh that that's how they are made.

43:01

I mean, that's what andy assumes from the get-go We already played the clip that Um, these are gay people right? They're gay people They they have that and it's before any action that they've done So he has he wasn't saying this 15 years ago, but he's he's acting like he the nothing's changed.

43:18

That's the deceit That's the poison pill that he's he's taking uh People on he's saying that They if you've been attending his church for a number of years that hey, nothing's changed here You you can still financially support us and come and attend And be part of what we're doing because it's it's never It's never changed.

43:38

Guess what changed the climate changed the political climate and that's why people are attacking me That's that's nonsense.

43:42

If anything the political climate has gotten more hostile against christians who have these views So let's let's finish this out here.

43:51

Uh andy's clip They Pray they pray that god will change him so they can experience that high-staffing groups was small groups of gay men 35 up to 65 and watch them Listen to the dramatic pauses in here.

44:27

I mean he's really jerking on your heartstrings Trying to get you to cry trying to get you to feel to empathize to isn't it's so horrible this is such a classic tactic, I mean like people like Uh, you know greg coles uses this tactic of you know, how much how much how godly Are you I mean you must be so godly if you're foregoing some of these things And living as a gay person.

44:52

So you're still living as a gay person.

44:54

You still have that identity you're still identifying with your sin and it's not actually taken away from you because either it's not sin because it's in the category of desire and that's the concupiscence problem or uh It's you'd have to say it's not a big deal something along those lines Right and but then we're not going to have a family because we know what the bible says about that so we should We should feel very sorry for us and when we choose to forego those desires.

45:23

It makes us like super christians this is one of the problems, um, the gospel coalition has had is they've in a number of articles have given the impression that there's almost like a a higher standard of Christianity which is is greater than Hetero, I mean, here's the thing.

45:40

I know plenty of heterosexual people, right? uh who are attracted to the opposite sex and um, and I don't even like using that language because it's not the biblical language is we are all designed by god to be Attracted the opposite sex and those who have disordered desires.

45:55

That's something to mortify But but people who uh don't have a problem With those kinds of desires.

46:02

They actually do have a desire for the opposite sex and uh, and and there's no temptation, uh in the other direction um You know, I forgot what I was saying now.

46:13

I lost my train of thought I was making a good point.

46:16

It was a brilliant point, but now I forgot it.

46:18

All right Um, let me see if I can get it back.

46:20

So yeah, okay.

46:21

So people so people who are um, Who have these these who consider themselves to be straight? And they're living a life, uh, you know that that is That that is holy to god in that way Uh approved by god, right? They're they're pursuing things in the right way that the bible describes that we're supposed to pursue them When they um When they get married, there's no problem.

46:49

There's no uh They're they're doing everything according to the biblical plan When a homosexual person Uh gets married they're breaking the biblical plan.

47:01

So so a a straight person can participate in a a homosexual person cannot But here's the problem There's tons of quote-unquote straight people Who aren't married Or they're older they're bachelors.

47:15

They're I mean, I I have some in my family some i'm i'm uh, quote friends that They've had to and guess what they've had to do.

47:23

They've had to be sexually pure For decades while Not getting married.

47:29

I mean isn't that also A struggle a real one and probably and a more holy one in a way.

47:34

I mean because because these are uh in principle good desires to have but you can't actually Uh advance them at all Whereas in the case of someone who's homosexual it's evil desires that you can't advance and we're supposed to think that's somehow holier or That there's this Godliness attached to that.

47:55

No, there's not um now of course mortifying sin there that's that's what all christians should do, but it's not like there's a special category for homosexuals though where they uh They are allowed to have this desire And this identity and these inclinations and temptations and all of that And they should be held up and put in church leadership positions and Seen as as extra godly because they're not getting married and they're not participating in a physical act No, I mean those those desires need to die These are still very disordered desires and my heart does go out to the people who who? Struggle in these areas through their own sin or the sin that's been committed upon them by other people and it's uh contributed to producing these things uh, they are They are they are bearing a burden, but it is a burden.

48:46

It doesn't doesn't mean that they're We we should just our heartstrings should uh be pulled in the direction of accepting That condition as if it's a godly condition just because it's not it's not a godly condition The godliness is the fighting it so Many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option so they commit to living Chaste life and old-fashioned work and for many Men and women who put their faith in christ, they just decide okay.

49:21

I'm just gonna buckle down.

49:22

I'm just gonna I'm, just gonna bear down.

49:24

I'm just gonna be by myself.

49:25

I'm not gonna have family i'm gonna be sexually pure And many many many men do that for long seasons of time and some for some it's it's it's their whole life but for many That is not sustainable And so they choose the same sex marriage Not because they're convinced it's biblical they read the same bible They chose to marry for the same reason many of us do love companionship and family And at the end as is the case for all of us.

50:02

This is the important thing.

50:03

I want you to hear me say it's their decision Our decision is to decide how we respond to their Decision our decision as a group of local churches is how are we going to respond to their decision? And we decided 28 years ago We draw circles.

50:26

We don't draw lines.

50:28

We draw big circles if someone desires to follow jesus Regardless of their starting point regardless of their past regardless of their current circumstances Our message is come and see and come sit with me And this is not it This is who we are.

50:44

It's who we've always been and this is why I love our church and this is why i'm so extraordinarily proud Of you we aren't condoning sin.

50:53

We are restoring relationships And we are literally saving lives There you have it literally saving lives Some people are complaining that Rightfully complaining that I guess uh, the audio of andy is kind of low So just so everyone knows I haven't uploaded the audio version.

51:14

I don't do that until i'm done um, and i'll go back and listen and at the very least i'll try to adjust that for the audio version, uh, if uh, if you want to share that around but um, anyway, what andy just said and I think it's important to Focus on that last line.

51:30

They're saving lives saving lives at north point and He he basically justifies Homosexual marriage at the end.

51:39

He says look it's it's not because it's biblical It's you got to feel sorry for these people that they're this is just the closest thing.

51:46

They can Try to they don't they don't want to be immoral.

51:48

They don't want to have sex outside of marriage So so they decide to get married in a gay marriage because this is the closest thing that they can possibly Where they can exercise their desires which which according to you know, our our liberal mindset in the united states in the western world It's like tyranny if you can't express your desires and so That's that's the highest good is to express your desires.

52:12

So um so for people to be Uh shamed for it or not like that.

52:17

That's a terrible thing So he's trying to he's saying that there's there's this.

52:22

Uh, there's he's putting it on like a good better best plane He's saying that well, it's not the best.

52:26

It's not biblical, but but it's it's good It's a good thing with that.

52:30

They're doing this that they're trying to Not uh have sex out of wedlock, so they're getting married I'm telling you He's going to go farther into this.

52:39

I mean he's going to start finding that the bible in his mind, uh somehow endorses Homosexuality and homosexual marriages and stuff soon.

52:47

He's saying now he's trying to hold on to the bible by saying well, it's not biblical but You should really not you should not be so hard on the people that do that because look they're trying to do something That's better.

52:58

It's better to have a commitment and fidelity than to be Just you know having sex with anyone and and a player and that kind of thing so Uh, that's what he's doing, but I would say that's an affirmation right there And that's where andy stanley's at.

53:12

It's super sad, and i'm sorry to see it Um, we've been going about 53 minutes surprisingly.

53:18

I thought it was shorter than that time flies So I don't want to go too much longer here, but I will take some questions if you have any questions or comments uh about this, please Get them in now Uh, I know I should have probably flagged some of the comments i'm going to try to find them if I can now Um, some people were asking about the roman catholic concupiscence idea here Now i'm having trouble finding them in the chat If someone wants to already wrote that and they want to put it in the chat again, go for it You know some really good comments here, uh John grant says if you keep my commandments you will buy to my love just as I have kept my father's commandments and buy in his love So yeah, I think that makes a good point about trying to Somehow justify accepting sin based upon love.

54:14

No, you can't uh the obeying god's commandments is love that's how we know that we we love god as we obey his commandments and so That's how the world will know that you are my disciples So You can't making that separation between this is the command of god, but here's the love For somebody who's breaking the command, which means somehow endorsing that breaking of the command.

54:36

It's not possible And it's it is new.

54:39

It's innovative.

54:40

It really is it's it's for this particular circumstance Because there's so much pressure on the church.

54:45

I'm convinced Um, yes, you're famous now.

54:50

John.

54:50

That's right.

54:51

That's right Uh all all 300 people streaming Um is andy sbc that's a good question.

54:59

I don't know if he still is um Or not.

55:03

That's a good question.

55:04

I bet I could find out real quick if he's sbc um, because I mean he's he's replying to a criticism from al moeller, which is Would make me think that there's at least some overlap there whether or not Uh, he himself is still his church is still in the sbc Yeah, i'm not finding a confirmation of that maybe someone can put in the chat whether he's still in the southern baptist convention I'm, not finding any articles Yeah, it just it just says that I guess the criticisms from al moeller um were particularly Potent so there must be some overlap there because al moeller's influence is primarily potent I would say in the sbc So good question there um Okay, so someone sean graham says north point church voluntary affiliates with the southern baptist convention in its local state national expressions and he is I believe quoting from their website.

56:06

So, uh, yeah, they are they are in the sbc interesting Uh, so yeah that this is a major sbc church.

56:13

That means a major Mega church that is going down this road.

56:19

So it's a problem in the sbc Some people think that well, it's the pca that has the revoice problem.

56:25

No, the sbc has it too It definitely does it's not in the same way perhaps uh, or to the same extent, but it's definitely there and And i've seen it at a number of places I mean sam albury is platformed at southern seminary, right? So which is a flagship seminary.

56:43

So I mean it's around for sure um, lots of comments lots of comments coming in Is the sbc doing anything about this? I mean You'd think that if they're going to disfellowship quote-unquote racists uh, you would think that this would be an easier call but uh, This is this would be big.

57:04

I mean Uh disfellowshipping rick warren was a big thing, right? So this this would be also pretty big because this is the son of a person of of a major figure In the conservative resurgence with a lot of respect so Maybe maybe Is andy's argument the same reason god deposed king saul trying to understand that question um Is andy's argument the same reason god that maybe you can clarify what you mean by that? I mean Yeah, i'm assuming it the question is When king saul was deposed for his disobedience to god Was it a similar rationale that king saul used that he was? uh merely taking the The cattle and the goods and and everything that was supposed to be destroyed.

58:00

He took them for himself uh, and He did so justifying it that this was we're going to sacrifice to the lord and that kind of thing uh, I I guess I could see a parallel there if that's the question that andy is Trying to He's not obeying the lord, right? But he's justifying it based upon what he thinks is a higher Good that the lord also commands so pitting god's law against itself supposedly.

58:26

Yeah, I guess I could see that um See other questions coming in the roman catholic dogma of the perpetual virginity of mary makes it clear that saint joseph uh led a Celebrate a celeb.

58:42

I'm not sure exactly i'm not sure exactly what uh Babbery lane is is if you could maybe rephrase that maybe i'm just blind and i'm not understanding the question There's another one and i'm looking for it on roman catholicism, but I can't find it now And it's kind of killing me that I can't find it I should have started uh when I saw it so that I could go back to it But um, hopefully i'll hit it in in my closing monologue here So any any other questions before we we land the plane, um Celibate so okay, I guess the question was celibate Wait, john wrong north point.

59:22

What did I what was I wrong? Did I say did I say saddleback instead of north point? I meant north point I I was saying that Well, what I was trying to say was that it was it took the sbc a lot to kick saddleback out so That was this would be similar kicking north point out.

59:39

That's what I was trying to say if case I said that wrong.

59:41

Sorry um People in the chat are going a little uh Say sean's saying he was wrong now.

59:54

So so now i'm wondering is is north point, uh connected to the sbc so he's got a link here, I can't really copy and paste that unfortunately, but um, so I I guess maybe if someone could confirm that I thought that he was putting a a direct quote from their website, so Yeah, let me know.

01:00:14

Let me know if uh, if that's wrong um if they are in the sbc which to me that wasn't that wasn't the topic of the podcast, so I didn't uh, I didn't focus on it.

01:00:25

But if they are in the sbc that is kind of a big deal Okay, so someone is now confirming they're not part of the sbc.

01:00:31

All right well here live we uh, we We have figured out that north point has gone from the sbc to not in the sbc Okay, sean is saying he was incorrect.

01:00:42

So I don't know where he got that from um so Uh, there's there's another north point.

01:00:48

I got it.

01:00:49

Okay, there's an So we're confusing north point churches now So i'm glad that andy's church is not in the sbc There there's got to be some overlap though because andy talks about this al moeller article doing damage and that this is affecting Missionary support and and ministries that they're involved with so there's got to be some overlap here, I think But um, i'm glad to hear that.

01:01:09

He's not technically in the sbc.

01:01:11

All right Um closing I just want to say this about this whole ordeal Um, you know, I started the whole video playing a montage from tim staples and others Who are roman catholic thinkers respected roman catholic thinkers? who Make the argument they get they have more more than andy intellectual justification for Why they believe that desires Aren't necessarily sins even if the desire is for something sinful and I think that that is probably the root of where and of andy's problem is that he actually agrees with them On this particular point, which is contrary to the protestant understanding of desire that actually Our desires for evil things are in the in and of themselves Those things are sin or sinful and so um When andy stanley talks about being gay and having this orientation or this this pattern of desires but Not acting on it not sinning.

01:02:17

He's he's making a very firm distinction and he's trying to justify that having the identity Is perfectly acceptable but having the taking part in the action, uh may not be But even there he's waffling and this is one of the things i've said for a long time now on this podcast is once you go down adopting same-sex desires attraction as a legitimate category The problem is that will naturally lead you to a saying that the actions are also somehow legitimate I don't see a way to really stop that because if if the desires for something is now um somehow acceptable uh You're going to then Have to say that it must not be disordered It it you can't say it's acceptable and it's disordered like it's either one or the other So if it's not disordered that means it must be there must be something Potentially natural about it and if it's natural uh, then this this is the question is is this part of of uh, sinful Original sin is it created from original sin or is this part of creation and god's creation? Um greg cole's for I don't know why I keep bringing him up, but he keeps coming to mind uh, he's he's obviously a protestant who Advocates this kind of a view.

01:03:37

I mean he tries to make the argument that it's like a disability so uh when god created that this could be something that god uses to show forth his grace Show his uh his mercy And he uses these disabilities Uh for uh, but but but he's the one that created, you know, as he told moses he created uh, the blind and the death and these kinds of things so so there is this this try attempt to categorize it as part of of uh nature in some way and and maybe marred by the the fall of sin somehow, but it's not actually tied directly to um to original sin in the sense of it's the consequences, but it's not the It's not motivated by it and and the protestant understanding and I think the christian understanding And the biblical understanding is actually that these actions are motivated by internal desires From original sin that are evil in and of themselves and it's from the heart that these things these things come forth as jesus said All the the evils the blasphemies and the idolatries and all of that come from the heart of man So for the actions to be sinful the desires for those actions also have to be sinful and and and so there's these creative ways that um, I I think roman catholics have done probably have been more consistent on this and they're not as innovative they've at least have a tradition now for a few centuries that um That does create a space for this but but it's wrong.

01:05:12

It's an error and it will necessarily Lead people to the conclusion that this is somehow An acceptable part of god's creation and if it's an acceptable part of god's creation, why not act on it? Why would that be wrong? Um, I mean the the questions that come is why would god give you then desire? They're not from sin Why would god be giving you desires for things? that uh that you can't ever uh fulfill And and then paralleling those desires with good natural desires.

01:05:41

That's god's given that are part of god's will actually That is general will for all people Um, all right, so, uh last uh questions are coming in here and i'll just try to um answer whatever I can uh Okay, tim miller's trying to clarify his question now, I don't remember what his question was, uh, let's see if you can rephrase it tim um I guess he's advocating prosecuting people who abuse children.

01:06:11

I mean, I agree.

01:06:12

I mean, I think you know, that should be That that has been traditionally part of our legal system He says, uh, you cannot sin without choosing sin not how it works Um, okay.

01:06:26

Yeah, I don't know you have to sorry I I don't do well with the with the shorthand.

01:06:31

Uh, sometimes it has to be spelled out pretty Um Just pretty um directly for me Because because otherwise I will misunderstand Okay.

01:06:43

So yeah people are coming in and reaffirming that north point is not part of the sbc.

01:06:48

So good Um Our nature is completely polluted with sin.

01:06:56

Well, it's it's certainly Uh, we certainly have total depravity we also though have a Good desires that god has given from creation That for example the desire to provide for your young Right and the desire to have children the desire to um To love your spouse and those kinds of things they're non-christians can actually operate in these ways Doesn't mean that their motives are completely pure.

01:07:23

They're They're sinfulness Um, I think I I could say attached to or part of even those things in the motives if it's not ultimately out of gratitude for god and that kind of thing, but When jesus said even the unrighteous even the evil father gives his son a fish When he asked for a fish and not a snake that goes to show you that there is there is an earthly good and that's the Probably the the most common phrase I use is earthly good versus heavenly good or versus eternal good earthly good can be accomplished by Non-christians even even though even their earthly good though will can potentially damn them.

01:08:02

That's the thing that's uh If they're because because they're not doing it again for the glory of god, they're not Doing it with gratitude to god.

01:08:11

Um But they are operating out of an instinct that god has given and that's why when people Like when mothers kill their children, everyone says oh that's like sociopathic.

01:08:22

There's so there's a problem there That's a deep dark thing right because it's the natural tendency of everyone So so that's I think that separation has to be made here with with same-sex attraction.

01:08:33

Where do you categorize it? Can it be an earthly good? Can it be something that well, maybe it doesn't uh, God doesn't approve of it.

01:08:40

But maybe there's some maybe maybe that's even natural.

01:08:43

Maybe maybe that's The case well, I I would submit no.

01:08:46

I mean, I think that's what romans 1 is arguing against that These are disorder desires.

01:08:50

These are fundamentally unnatural that there's no part of god's plan Included that and so the desires that uh, That produce the actions are are evil um All right.

01:09:07

Well Yeah, i don't tim I don't I I do not know what you're i'm, sorry, maybe it's my fault but um, if you if you rephrase your question, um, maybe I can uh understand and get to it um, i'm sure it made a lot of sense, but I can't I I don't know I don't know exactly what you're getting at Oh, maybe it's this one.

01:09:33

Maybe maybe okay.

01:09:35

I maybe because I see some people reacting to this All right, this second to last comment.

01:09:40

I'll take one one comment or question after this He says i'm confused as to how someone can be sinning by having a thought especially one.

01:09:46

They didn't actively try to have okay this wasn't The normal view for 1500 plus years.

01:09:53

Also, most people are same-sex attracted I don't know what to do with that.

01:09:59

Uh Most people are same-sex.

01:10:01

I'm pretty sure most people are not same-sex attracted So I I would really be curious to know where that thinking comes from Even the most hardened gay activists I wouldn't think would make the claim most people are same-sex attracted.

01:10:14

So maybe that was a typo I don't know uh, but the normal the normal view okay for 1500 years, I guess is uh someone Can be sinning Okay.

01:10:26

Okay.

01:10:27

So so if someone having a thought doesn't mean sinning.

01:10:29

Yeah that but that wasn't the view for 1500 years Uh, so it's not that protestants were innovative and they just decided one day.

01:10:37

Well, we're just going to reject no, the this is stuff that um This was actually one of the dividing lines of the reformation Uh, not as big as you know justification um by faith alone in christ alone through grace alone, but uh, but this this was certainly an issue was Um the issue of original sin And and the issue of baptism and what what does what what is the effect of baptism? um You see some hybrid positions I think the lutherans actually have a bit of a hybrid position on this but but you'll see in the more calvinistic leaning reformation, uh traditions uh, they would have rejected that the Baptism does not get rid of original sin.

01:11:19

And then of course, what does that even mean getting rid of original sin? It doesn't um It doesn't mean that now you can have desires that are somehow Um, they're not rooted in original sin, but we just we get them and uh, those desires now aren't in the category of sin because you can't have that because original sin's already been Dealt with but if you act on them, then then it becomes a sin.

01:11:43

I mean this isn't even a biblical Where do you even go in the bible to try to justify that kind of thing? It's it's fairly innovative um, but but there's a lot of protestants now trying to say very similar things so um, I do plan just so everyone knows I do plan to Have a longer discussion about concupiscence and The issue comes up every time I talk about it.

01:12:06

Uh, I have I have a fly in front of me I don't know where that came from.

01:12:10

Um There's people who are uh concerned sometimes they have experiences where they've been abused as a child And that's created problems later on down the line.

01:12:19

So they say this person sinned against me So how can I be held responsible and and the fact of the matter is I mean people sin against us in all kinds of ways I mean if I Was raised by a violent father and then I went and and did violence against others Could I blame my father for that? well, I could say that my father contributed certainly to the tendencies that I have and made it acceptable to me and there was a pattern formed and a habit formed but Um, can I say that? Uh, i'm not somehow now responsible For desiring to murder people.

01:12:51

No, I mean it's still a responsibility.

01:12:53

I have I have a responsibility to mortify those things so um, we've talked about it before you can go back to some of my Episodes where I talked about concupiscence and I had jared moore on but I think i'm going to do some more I'm going to have jared moore on probably again since he just published a book on this And I might do my own podcast really going into detail on the roman catholic versus the protestant Historic positions on this topic because I think it does it is important and it does come into play in discussions like this Um, so so that was a wedding your taste playing those clips at the beginning Uh, i'm going to play those clips again for you at a later point Uh, and I know some people have asked me to do that So, uh one more did I say one more? I don't one more comment one more comment.

01:13:36

We'll do one more um Let's see Well, everything now is just positive I can't I wanted a challenging one here All right.

01:13:52

Well, we'll just andy stanley, uh His parsing on this issue is ridiculous and he knows it it's simply pandering.

01:13:59

Yeah, I kind of I kind of agree.

01:14:02

I hate to say it Uh, I I kind of agree I I don't think there's anything other than a pressure um, I you know, even You know, even if you go back in roman catholic history You're not going to find the same push for specifically homosexuality right Uh, that's it's not like the roman catholic position is like we're fine with homosex.

01:14:26

It's not it's not um, i'm just saying that there's you can try to use a logic that they've had for centuries to to try to create a middle path here, but Um, but no, this is a very new kind of thing to justify this very new It's a it's a result of modernity really.

01:14:42

I mean, it's it's it's within the last uh 200 years Um and and more specifically really in our context in the united states, I would say We're really talking within the last 50 or so years That you even started to see this kind of um talk.

01:14:59

It's so new um when I was doing uh research for Social justice goes to church A book I published a few years ago I was I was specifically trying to trace an evangelicalism where this thinking came from the same-sex attraction was perfectly fine And the the farthest back I could go with it in any in any even semi mainstream capacity It wasn't and it was even fringy what I was looking at kind of But was it was like the late 60s early 70s.

01:15:27

I mean, it's so new.