Andy Stanley, Concupiscence, & Embracing Homosexuality

Concupiscence and the Roman Catholic View of Desire

We are live on the conversations that matter podcast at about a 1257 or so maybe a little before that I logged in to Get the podcast started and I got the black screen of death. And so my computer just totally froze and I couldn't do anything control-alt-delete wasn't working.

So I had to restart it. So for those asking, you know, isn't John's podcast supposed to start? Yeah, I was supposed to start 10 minutes ago, but I had to get everything back up and running and so hopefully it all works out.

I'm not sure why that happened, but Yeah, if it keeps happening I'll have to do something about that maybe I'll have to switch to Mac. I know some of you you that's your thing. You love Mac computers.

I've been raised on Microsoft. So I Don't know what I can tell you. Old habits, right? So anyway, we it looks like we're working here. If you can hear me Let me know just so I can make sure everything's working.

Someone says I'm on good. Okay, so we have the numbers climbing as people are coming into the stream. Yeah, we're gonna talk a little bit about this Ann Lee Stanley thing I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but I want to relate it to something that I've been Thinking about and Jared Moore actually has a new book coming out on concupiscence on the lust of the flesh.

I think is the title and I was skimming through some of the things that he wrote in there and I'm planning on doing a review of the book. I may be having him on the podcast. But I think I want to play a clip I might play it again in a podcast with him or a podcast on concupiscence in the future but I want to play it today and maybe we'll get started with that clip actually and we'll just jump into it because This is a montage.

I made this actually months ago of some popular Roman Catholic apologists thinkers and What they have to say about concupiscence, which is you know, basically it's the Latin term for for desire but It's their View of this their view especially when it comes to this is where it gets I would say Applicational and the divergences are clearly seen on the issue of same-sex attraction their view is different than the Protestant view or the reformed Protestant view and So I want to highlight that a little bit before we get started and then you can ask yourself.

The question is what Andy Stanley saying is that is the basic error or at least one of the basic errors? And I think it is the basic error. He's making related to this. Is he adopting a teaching? That's not it's not really a biblical teaching or maybe even or a Protestant teaching.

But I'm not saying he's getting this directly from Roman Catholicism, but at the very least it parallels a Difference that I thought was hashed out in the Reformation so We will get into that. So Trudell asked if I saw the James White debate on side B.

I did not know. Sorry, I've heard about it a little bit. I think one one or two people told me about it, but I have not seen it. So Maybe we'll talk about that. I don't know. How was it? I didn't had y 'all think it was if any of you saw it, let me know in the chat section here.

All right, so we're gonna start off with some clips. These aren't from Andy Stanley. We're gonna get to the Andy Stanley stuff in due course but I want to start off with some clips from some Roman Catholic apologists on this topic of concupiscence and and specifically same-sex attraction, how does their concept of Concupiscence and whether or not that is a sin to have desires before you're acting on them basically whether or not that is in itself a sin or sinful so Let's let's get there.

Let's see if I can pull it up. Here we go Catechism paragraph.

1264 just for the folks who may not know what that says it says. Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized such as suffering illness death and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character and so on as well as an inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence or metaphorically the tender for sin fomus picante in Latin, right.

Since Concupiscence is left for us to wrestle with it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ. Indeed an Athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules the Catholic Church catechism states.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity by the virtues of self mastery that teach them their inner freedom at times by the support of disinterested friendship by prayer and sacramental grace. They can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The church is not saying that the desire is a sin.

See actions are sins. Desires are not because you can't be charged with a sin for something you didn't choose. Something you can't be in control of but once we have these attractions to whatever then I need to choose how I behave.

So is concupiscence a sin see the the Protestants? Confused concupiscence with sin, you know that that original sin is in us and We are still in sin and concupiscence is proof of it. It's it's sin in us.

You see that's wrong. It's so it's not a sin in itself. Sin comes from the will. That's a very important point.

Okay, well there you have it that's a number of different Catholic Apologists and teachers I think accurately depicting the doctrine of the Catholic Church on this question of same-sex attraction and concupiscence more broadly and What you'll notice and I think Andy Stanley Goes past this.

I don't think they would approve of where Andy Stanley's taken this necessarily, but what I'm trying to do is show you that They're the basic error that I think Rome Advocates on this particular question is that sins can only be sins if they are of the will that that's the only place that sin essentially resides so if it's there's a There's desires there's Temptations attractions inclinations.

Whatever term you want to use that someone can have for something That God has not ordained that is wrong. That is sinful were that person to actually Carry out the desires that they have but the Catholic Church has determined that those things are not actually in themselves sin, and the reason for this really is That once you're baptized That in Catholic doctrine the baptism takes away original sin.

So when you still sin right you still commit errors there has to be a category for that for the Christian who's been baptized. So it's it's a willful sin in that sense. It's not original sin, and it's not something that If you have a desire for you are necessarily guilty of so they create a category there and And that's the reason they create this category.

So so essentially someone who Is baptized into the Roman Catholic Church who the you know the original sin has been essentially taken away. But there's still this this these sinful actions at some point.

They can't originate from deep within because that's already been taken care of. I'm oversimplifying here, but. But I don't think I'm being inaccurate to what the doctrine actually teaches and and I hope to get into this a little more in some future podcasts so My point wasn't to get deep into Catholic doctrine in this podcast.

But just to start it off with showing that this is probably foreign to you. If you grew up in a Protestant Church, you didn't hear this kind of thing. Especially when it comes to the sin of covetousness we were told in in just about every gospel presentation we were told that God looks at the desires of your heart that The secret sins the things that no one knows about except yourself God knows about and so he's gonna judge you according to those things.

So this is probably familiar for most of the audience who happens to be Protestant. I know there are a few Catholic Roman Catholics who Do listen to this podcast in Eastern Orthodox. So if you are listening.

Hey, let me know if what you think about my depiction here and where you think I could have. Well, I'm not giving a full full description, but at least What you think of my description my limited description here of concupiscence, but anyway you heard the the clips.

That's what Rome teaches now. I Want to bring this into the Stanley discussion because we're gonna go over a number of clips from Andy Stanley. He preached a sermon last Sunday protest TIA Actually had someone I guess send them the audio so they captured the audio and posted online you go to protest.

You calm and find that I took the audio and cleaned it up more. So the link to this video you'll find a cleaned up version of that because in I think the original version someone was sitting in the audience recording on their iPhone or something and so you hear some background noise and things and so I tried to clean some of that out of it but.

But I'm gonna play some of some of that clip and we're gonna talk about a little bit as we go so let's start here. Hopefully everyone can hear that I'm gonna see if I can turn the volume as high as I can for you.

In different parts of the world especially with missionary organizations and churches.

Andy Stanley’s “Draw Circles” Rationale for Same-Sex Attraction

Okay, so I want to start by saying that this is an admission that Outlets like protest TIA like this podcast and like many others who have focused on Andy Stanley's errors have been largely successful in Convincing Christians who maybe listen to Stanley that he's not correct biblically when he approaches this topic of homosexuality and same-sex attraction and.

So this is something that I Think is it an encouragement in a way. I at least I take it that way that it does have an effect you do have an effect out there when you share these kinds of videos around and.

So Stanley has to he's forced to react to some of the criticism He's gotten which we've talked about on this podcast before for conferences. He's hosted and things. He said about this topic of homosexuality.

So and for those who don't know I should probably say this to Andy Stanley is the son of Charles Stanley Who's very instrumental in the Southern Baptist Convention's conservative resurgence. He's got a mega church North Point church in in Georgia, I believe and he is The.

He has a big name. We'll put it that way. So it's it's not like he's controlling an entire denomination. But you'll hear later I think I included the clip where he talks about missionaries and others being impacted because of any connection to North Point and to Stanley because of the criticisms against him from more Orthodox believers who are concerned about his stance.

So an encouraging thing just to get started here that hey the pressure does it doesn't mean something. When it's good biblical pressure of this is what the Bible says is what you're saying.

Draws lines and Jesus drew circles. He drew circles so large and included so many people in his circle that it consistently made religious leaders Nervous and his circle was big enough to include sinners like me.

So he says that Jesus in this talk, which is about 50 minutes. So I've taken about what seven minutes of it you can go listen to the whole thing if you want all the context, but he says that the difference between Jesus and I think he's reacting to an Al Mohler article ironically is that The criticisms against him aren't the kinds of things Jesus would say Jesus wouldn't criticize Andy Stanley for embracing same-sex attraction as a legitimate category and Hosting conferences that really do affirm LGBT type activities and identities and that kind of thing because Jesus he says the pattern of Jesus was drawing circles and and and that meant expanding the tent of Christianity into sinners so that so obviously though the key problem with this and I think everyone should be able to recognize this hopefully is that What he's doing is he's assuming that when Jesus sat down with sinners and tax gatherers who were repentant Who wanted to come to Jesus because they wanted the life in Christ that he offered and they did not.

They wanted to reject their sin for a better life for the true life that Christ brings that that somehow that creates this legitimate category for living as a Christian. Without mortifying these desires somehow with keeping these desires around these sinful desires that you're not gonna find that anywhere Jesus doesn't expand to adulterers into zealots who were involved in you know nefarious activities tax gatherers, but you know, whatever the Evil people of that time were publicly known as evil Had reputations of evil those kinds of people.

He didn't say well you can you you can be an adulterer still in your heart, but you just can't Act on it anymore. And that's that's me expanding the circle. So so I there's adulterers in the circle. No such were some of you, right?

They were repentant. That was the whole con. That was the whole premise of when Jesus told the Pharisees. It's those who are sick who need a doctor who need a healer. So it was Sick people who wanted to get better.

And Andy Stanley has to kind of ignore that if he wants to make this argument about Christ at least pretty basic stuff here but somehow this is. This is what's passing for preaching in Andy Stanley's church.

He said Andy more and more middle school students are coming out to their small group leaders about their same-sex attraction and we'd already seen this begin to Happen with high school students coming out to their small group leaders.

And so Tom and Kevin said hey any our small group leaders and our you know, our volunteers. They just don't feel equipped to talk to a middle school or a high school student about same-sex attraction.

And would you put together a training to help our leaders? You know know what to do with this? Well to me That is an extraordinary way. This is you know, this is almost 10 years ago once upon a time I don't can take this once upon a time the last place a middle school student or a high school student Was going to talk about their same-sex attraction.

The last place they were going to talk about it was where? In church. And now they feel confident and they feel connected to where they can talk about the most Sensitive area of their life with their small group leader in church.

I'm telling you I'm so proud of our church and our volunteers and this incredible system that Kevin engineered all those years ago. That's so relationally driven. So this is a double down. Stanley's saying that.

Everything that's happened at North Point Church in regards to this issue Has been has yielded positive fruit. And so that fruit though is manifested in The approachability of the leadership so people with same-sex attraction are willing to come and talk about it to the leadership and that is his measure of success and and so I will just note that if that is the only measure of success at least the there's a major problem because You can have people people are feel very affirmed and approached able to approach leaders in just about any secular academic or I Guess media or you know really any Medical establishment any any institution you can think of outside the church about now in 2023 people feel fairly confident talking about their homosexuality.

So You have to look at this as if Andy Stanley is saying we've caught up to them We're just like them now in that sense that people feel confident talking about something that before caused so much shame, but now They're willing to do that.

And and I do want to say, you know, there is this There is a truth to if someone's a repentant sinner and they're coming to you saying I have a problem. You do want approachability in your church. That's absolutely true.

You don't want there to be such a climate of like a Condemnation for someone who's actually trying to repent from a sin but at the same time that those conversations Need to be about the repentance and about solving the issue right and it not just making the metric Talking about it and they feel comfortable.

Well, you know good and and there should be some shame attached to some of this. It should be something that you know, you don't really want to talk about necessarily because it's it's embarrassing. It's shameful I mean those public shame is a powerful force.

It's actually can be a very good thing when it's when it corresponds with God's plan and his his law because it's what actually prevents people from going farther than they would because they You know that may be the last line of defense.

But they don't want to suffer the embarrassment of doing something that people consider evil and shameful so So there should be some shame but but despite the shame there should be an approachability.

For those who want to actually repent is that what's Andy's talking about? He's not really making those qualifications. But he's but he's just making the the conversation is happening. And that means that we're in the right spot somehow.

In my experience I've talked to many many many many gay men in particular and I would say they don't just ask. They beg. They. They're afraid of disappointing the parents. Depending on the church that they attend.

They are literally afraid they are going to have not because of anything they've done but because of who they are. Because of the message not a culture the message the church.

Okay, so we've heard this so many times we've talked about on this podcast in particular this idea that Because people who experience same-sex attraction Because they they're embarrassed about it they feel in the context of the church they feel somehow judged by it and those kinds of things that there's all these negative consequences that come from that and It's just a horrible thing that there's churches that Harbor these these kinds of sentiments against same-sex attracted people.

This is where you get living outs audit. For to make sure your church is safe, right for this. That's the Sam Albury's I guess organization. He was at least a co-founder in and Tim Keller was one of the ones who?

Was instrumental in bringing that out years ago to help churches navigate this issue by being sensitive to those kinds of Feelings. But they're not they're focused if you notice the focus is shifted. It's it's on man.

I focus is totally on How does man feel in this particular situation? Is there a way to make them feel more comfortable? Instead of looking at okay. What does God say about this? We wouldn't really do this with any other sin and I think that holds true for every clip I'm gonna play here from Andy Stanley, you know substitute any other sin.

The world let's say considers really bad and you it would make no sense for a church to then soft pedal it or try to be so sensitive to the the people who commit that sin and and Are fine with it. I guess having those desires still to commit that sin and want to be affirmed in that somehow Being comfortable and feeling accepted in a Christian situation.

Let's play the next clip here.

To our should be. Our should be the last generation of parents and families in the local church who go through this experience feeling Isolated they without help in other words. Let's put an end to this.

Let's create communities inside of our church where again as I said to that group, you know Almost ten years ago. The church should be the safest place on the planet for students to talk about anything Including same-sex attraction.

And the church should be the safest place on the planet for parents to talk about anything including their kids who are struggling with and wrestling with same-sex attraction or their kids that have just come out and embrace the Okay.

So the church is a safe space now is what you're hearing. Which is it really what I said earlier? I mean it let's catch up to what the world's doing. Let's make a safe space here for that particular sin and it's just interesting.

He focuses on that and not he doesn't broaden it it's not maybe he would have given the opportunity and maybe in other sermons he has but You know, would he take some of the sins that or even sometimes?

They're not even sins, but they're they could be sin adjacent or connected to sin or they might not even be sin at all. It's just the world happens to have their own metric and in their metric. It's it's evil.

But but think about like, you know misogyny sexism racism. All the buzzwords anti-semitism kin ism think about even some of the sexual sins that are still considered taboo like pedophilia or polygamy, right and would you preach a sermon in which you would take any of those sins and fill them into that spot and say someone with pedophilia Inclinations desires.

We think that they should feel comfortable and it's so horrible that they we don't have a safe space in the church for them it sounds kind of weird even when I say it because we know innately that. That's that's something that's morally evil and it should be dealt with if someone and I believe I'm consistent on this I do think people with those Inclinations or those those temptations those attractions those sinful feelings should go to their pastor and They should talk about that.

They should seek help Christian help for those kinds of things. They should feel comfortable sharing those things in the sense that their pastor at least is going to help them through it but they should not feel comfortable in the sense that they're going to continue to be accepted and Their and their desires are going to be seen as acceptable somehow and people aren't going to think Less of them or think less of their Christian walk if they have those desires because There's a problem with your Christian walk if you have desires like that.

It's the lust of the flesh. It's it's it's of the world. It's and look every Christian struggles with Sins at times in their life no matter what the sin is but it doesn't mean that those things are somehow acceptable or those things are somehow part of Can live it alongside the identity one has in Christ.

We like to a conference that we can invite parents with LGBTQ plus kids. And we would invite some experts to talk to them to help them take their next step. Make sure that they're healthy. Personally make sure that their marriages are healthy as they you know, continue this journey with their precious children.

They want to call it the unconditional conference. And so of course we said well sure. I mean we've been in this space for 10 years. Why wouldn't we host the conference? Well, as soon as they begin marketing the conference all the Christian critics.

They were. What they said about Greg and Lynn was cruel. They said about that because he and I was cruel. They said about you was cruel you to flee the church and he's a heretic. He's sending people to hell.

Hopefully not. I look at it all. I never turn away from criticism. It's the only way to learn and sometimes I go I.

Will say this for those who are you know gay affirming and They like what Andy Stanley's been doing you should notice that Andy Stanley even in that joke He is admitting that the people who are his worst critics in his mind will be in heaven with him so just just saying, you know, if Andy's he's trying to have it both ways and so he's not condemning them to to hell for their condemnation of what North Point's doing but he is.

He is against what they're saying he is against their criticism even though he's saying he's trying to Learn from it now the book he's talking about here. That's being criticized that they used they held a conference with these people is By Greg and Lynn McDonald and it's called embracing the journey and I figured I would just show you one page just to give You a little idea of like the kinds of things you can find in that particular book.

So here it is. This is on page 134 over the years I said Lynn and I attended had attended dozens of weddings. Sometimes we knew the couple were very well. Sometimes we knew either the bride or the groom.

Sometimes we only knew the parents more than a few couples in those weddings had been living together for years before they tied the knot and Though Lynn and I believe that God created sex to be enjoyed only within the boundaries of marriage.

We never avoided a wedding because of the couple's previous sex life. We never felt like our presence was somehow putting a Christian stamp of approval on their choices. So look where they take this. Knowing that about ourselves Lynn and I would attend the same-sex weddings of our friends and perhaps someday of our son as a way Of loving them and maintaining a presence and influence in their lives.

So this is the kind of thing you find in this book and it's important for you to me to mention this just because Andy Stanley's trying to make out that what North Point's doing is they're helping these hurting kids and hurting People who attend their church along by providing comfort and encouragement and That they haven't really you'll hear in a minute.

They haven't changed their stance on marriage or any of these things. It's really just them trying to be what Christians are called to be to be encouragers and Part of though the encouragement this is key here is Affirming things like that saying, you know, yeah, I'll go support my son's same-sex wedding.

I'll go and be part of that I'll go to friends who are Participating in that kind of thing. I'll go to their weddings. And so it's it's actually endorsement. Like it's not just encouragement to flee the sin.

It's an endorsement of the lifestyle sin the pattern of error that they are. That they are stuck in it best-case scenario and you're embracing it. You're showing them that it's not really that big of a deal because you're gonna out of love.

Here's the thing though out of love. Would you support someone who's involved in some kind of an another sin? That's equally according to you know, the Old Testament to wave odds abomination. Would you go and support another abomination because it's it's loving I mean look, I'll visit someone in jail if they Commit a crime if they steal something or they rape someone or they they rob or I mean These are all still things that you know, most people would agree are bad.

Thankfully and they are I would go visit someone in jail but I'm not going to go while they are in the midst of committing the crime and Clap for them or make my give them an approval by showing up and not trying to stop them or you know When when the objection phase comes up, is there anyone who would well if that still comes up in ceremony?

So is there anyone who would object to the this marriage, you know, you're obligated if you're in the audience I mean you have to like That that's just there is an objection. Of course there is so let's let's keep going here with Andy Stanley and Just listen to every clip was terrible.

Just every clip has so many holes in it, but we're gonna continue here. We're about maybe 33 through the clips that I had queued.

“New Testament Sexual Ethic” and the Limits of Andy Stanley’s Defense

What do we teach. What do we teach your children your grandchildren? What do we teach about these issues and it's the same thing we have taught for 28 years. Nothing has changed again. I tell you all the time syndrome.

I raised our kids in these environments. We are thoroughly Satisfying customers. I've been thought that somebody is leaving our church over misinformation and pulling their kids out of our fabulous environments.

That breaks my heart. Their parents are going to be fine You know just about anywhere but the environments that we've created for kids are they are the best. Again, thoroughly satisfied customers, but as it relates to sexuality.

Here's what we teach and hopefully, you know this I feel like if you've been coming for a while There should be no question about this, but I don't mind just putting it out there. We teach what I refer to as a New Testament sexual ethic.

In fact, I read a whole book about this the new rules for love sex and dating. My son Andrew calls it loving sex and dating. I'm like, that's not the name of the book.

So so he's talking about. He's trying to show that there's been a consistency. He's saying we here at North Point Church have not changed anything people are just I guess woke up one morning and decided to attack Us, you know, why didn't they attack us 15 years ago?

We've been saying the same thing. Well, the fact is they haven't been they've been moving in a certain direction but his defense is that here's what the New Testament teaches and here's what we Affirm.

And so if you remember from previous episodes Andy Stanley does not think Christians are bound to follow Old Testament law at all even the moral principles there. It's it's really strictly New Testament.

He's He's really heretical on that topic. I don't know how else to Frame it and and so when he says New Testament ethic He's trying to limit it to what the New Testament says, of course the New Testament those imports the categories from the Old Testament.

That's inescapable. You the original audiences would not have understood especially the Judy Jewish audiences what these categories are. What what porneia? Encapsulated when Jesus talked about it. They knew because they already had the Old Testament Playing in their minds.

They knew what it was talking about what Jesus was talking about. So I'll let Andy continue here and you can listen to his defense.

We teach whether a student is straight or gay or questioning. This is what we say. Hey if you're gonna follow Jesus while you're figuring this out if you're gonna follow Jesus as you struggle with your identity or some of the Things you're feeling as you're as you're if you're gonna follow Jesus.

Here's what it looks like sexually to follow Jesus and the reason your Heavenly Father's called you to live this way is because he loves You but here it is. It's just three statements. Number one honor God with your body because The Holy Spirit lives in you and your body is how people know what you believe in where you stand and your behavior through your Body is to exemplify the goodness of God and the grace of God and the love of God.

So you always honor God with your body and you always honor other people's bodies. Number two Don't be mastered by anything not by porn not by a sexual addiction. Don't be mastered by another person. Don't be mastered by your infatuation.

Don't be a master by your lust. Don't be mastered by anything. You have a master and he's a king and he loves you. And he created you and he knows what's best for you. And number three the old-fashioned one don't sexualize a relationship outside of marriage.

That is so old-fashioned. No sex before married. Well, if you're not married, I mean who even teaches that anymore. Always have always will. And when people think we've listened to it before, you know wander away from this this earlier this year Joe Thomas did this amazing series called intimate encounters and one of the messages it was specifically about fidelity in marriage and sexual purity outside of marriage and I mean He deals with right on the nose and at the end of the message in one campus at least people broke out clapping.

Like yes, we're glad somebody believes that and here's why we're not going to blink on this. And I've asked, you know people in crowds this question. I've asked many people dozens of people over the desk this question.

Hey, it's sex outside of marriage. Make your life better or is it made it more complicated? Has sex outside of marriage made the person you had sex with it make their life better or did it make their life more complicated.

So we're gonna keep playing the clip but just reminder for everyone the three New Testament sexual ethic rules here are honor God with your body. Don't be mastered by anything. And don't sexualize relationships outside of marriage.

So he's narrowed everything down to these three points now if you Read what the New Testament says about these three points if you go to passages like Romans chapter 1 obviously is probably the standard and most I would say obvious passage where you find teaching on homosexuality.

Then it's disqualified from these broad principles. But but this is a tactic that That You see people who want to somehow Justify women pastors and other things that would be acceptable to the world. And are kind of now seen as archaic in the church.

That's how things used to be. They shouldn't be that way anymore. They often will justify things based on very broad principles. Sometimes it's nothing more than we're supposed to love other people and that means getting an experimental jab, right?

So that's what happens when you try to soft-pedal sin. I've seen that if you're trying to justify it biblically is you you go you appeal to very broad categories. And then you insert in those broad categories what you think should be honoring God with your body.

Not being mastered by anything and not sexualizing relationships outside of marriage. I mean you could go through these and you could say well I'm honoring God with my body by being monogamous with this particular person of the same sex.

I'm not being mastered by it because I'm I'm not addicted to it. I'm not there's other things in my life that I'm doing and it's not causing a problem in my life and then You could say well, I'm marrying the person, right?

This is the kind of stance the world would really have no problem with this because they'd say okay. You're Christian and you're you know, maybe some would think that the the marriage things kind of old-fashioned, but I think that's Andy's Safety mechanism.

He's trying to appeal to that to show Christians who are criticizing him that see I'm still old-fashioned I still believe in the biblical sexual ethics says you got to be married to have sex and You know, that's that's within the church.

That's acceptable to the world though to for if most of the time I would say people think Okay, if you're keeping that in the church, don't impose it on me. But if you keep it in the church, and that's what you believe fine but you should never say that gay marriages are illegitimate or that they're wrong or sinful or that kind of thing and that's where Andy goes wrong, so Someone mentioned in chat.

He's a Marcian. I yes that that would be I think a fair description of Andy's view of the Old Testament. He definitely follows a Marcian trajectory an ancient church heresy. All right. Let's keep listening to what Andy has to say here people say.

Yeah, it's created some Complications. Well, then what do you expect your Heavenly Father to say who loves you and loves the person whose life you may have? What do you think their Heavenly Father's gonna say about sexual activity.

When oftentimes our sex outside of marriage makes you a liar for life. Because you're never gonna tell the truth about your past because you're too ashamed. What would you expect. So the message is the same for everybody.

Sex is for married people. Regarding marriage and this feels weird even say this one. Just make sure everybody knows where we are. We talk about marriage or we talk about and teach about marriage the same way Jesus and the Apostles did.