Jon Modene Attacks RC Sproul then Calls

around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix Arizona this is the dividing line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is

Dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with Dr.

White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

United States it's 1 -877 -753 -3341 and now with today's topic here is

James White and good afternoon welcome to the dividing line I'm watching one of those really cool object desktop widget things that does the the radar and there's some there's some big storms out there but it's really weird when you watch the local stuff and then you watch like the statewide stuff it sort of looks like the prevailing winds are the other direction but it's still sneaking down a little bit in the valley here those if those babies move a little bit faster our direction it could be it could be very very it could be very bad and we could also just sort of disappear and no longer be here so if if all the sudden we're gone you'll know exactly why it is because there's some big thunder gusters out there welcome to the program got a couple things to do today before we go to the material

I mentioned on the blog I just happen to be looking around a bit today I I still in the process of bringing my my library down and I'm just doing it few boxes at a time bring it down unload them put the boxes back in the car you know that kind of thing and it be a whole lot more enjoyable if it wasn't you know triple digits outside so we may have to wait till you know

October November so like that to finish doing this stuff anyway I happen to see all of my various copies of the kingdom of the cults and I've got two old ones and then

I've got two fairly new ones and so I thought you know let's let's go ahead and bring them down stick them in the studio along with some other books that I'm sticking in the studio here and eventually we're just gonna have a you know some bookshelves in here in the studio and they make pretty good insulating material and so I started looking through one and I was checking something out and what

I was checking out is in the section on Jehovah's Witnesses now if you have old rat it closed if you have a copy of the kingdom of the cult you might find this interesting then again you might not we will we'll find out soon enough here

Bethany House put one out with Hank Canegraaff as the general editor in 1997 alright this is yeah 1997

October 1997 expanded anniversary edition October 1997 and I have that one and that's the one

I sort of had hanging around and if I had looked something up that's that's what I would use and then

I don't know where this came from I'm not totally 100 percent certain how I even got hold well it is a that's because Bethany House okay

Bethany sent me the new one that came out in in 2003 and so I decided to check something so if you've got the new one or you've got an old one you can go to Jehovah's Witness section go to the section of the deity of Christ in the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society section in the new one this is pages 114 and 115 Revelation 1 .8

I am the Alpha and the Omega and on page 115 of the newest edition and this is in all the previous editions except the 97 one there is a paragraph that begins on page 115 you all are getting a little inside information here so only the listeners to this program gets get this kind of inside information starting with the line further proof of this synthesis is the fact page 115 that the best and most authoritative manuscripts

Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, etc. have protoss first the Alexandrian manuscript since it possesses no accent marks should be translated original bringer forth

Erasmus in keeping with the laws of textual criticism Colossians 115 in short the whole problem is one of accentuation since there are no marks of punctuation or accent in the

Alexandrian manuscript wording of Revelation 1 .17

and since all the other manuscripts have protoss first is a contradiction to accentuate prototikos so as to make

Christ a created being instead of the creator. It's that paragraph right there if you look at the 97 edition that paragraph doesn't exist not there it just goes from the paragraph before to the next paragraph now why do

I mention this well if you look at the 97 edition you will not find my name in it and that was by my request but why wasn't that there because I took it out

I was asked to look at the chapters on the witnesses and the Mormons and I basically said to Bethany House be glad to do so but what can

I do and I thought well you know the state of Walter Martin doesn't want much changed and so I'm like then why are we looking at it and I was reading this and I looked at that statement that the manuscripts and it lists

Sinaiticus and I'm sorry it lists Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.

Now first of all the entire paragraph to be perfectly honest with you I haven't a clue what

Walter Martin was trying to say there I'm sorry but there's really nothing that paragraph that's even semi worthwhile or even worth arguing it's just it

I'm sorry but I know the issues about prototikos and RK and all that kind of stuff in regards to the deity of Christ and it's just it it's a waste of paper there's no there's no merit to it but what caught my eye when

I was reading it was the reference to Vaticanus when I was reading this is probably 96 ish around there because it came out in 97 and it was a really difficult editing job and I remember just looking at it in fact

I specifically remember being on an aircraft I was flying someplace and there may have been liquids in the aircraft at that time that gives you an idea of what's going on today in the world especially when you listen to archives and I looked at that and I remember going wait a minute that's not possible you know why it's not possible from the very beginning as far back as I could go in the kingdom of the cults this error has been in the text

I managed to get taken out and they put it back in Vaticanus ends at Hebrews 914 there is no book of revelation in Vaticanus so from the beginning paint the cult has listed

Vaticanus is having certain reading revelation and it doesn't contain revelation and I knew that now most people reading

Walter Martin don't know the contents of Codex Vaticanus and this was fairly close after I had been working on the

King James only controversy and therefore you know it was just right at the tip of my tongue and it's like it doesn't look quite right you know and so I made some changes and I said look you know this is why this needs to be changed in this paragraph here is completely irrelevant and it's got that information in it and so it was changed if you look at the other 97 edition you might say why did why isn't your name attached because I asked it not be put attached and then you say why is that because I could make all the changes

I wanted to I would have had to have made some pretty extensive changes for me to feel appropriate in having my name attached to the book

I did the best I could at least try to take out some places where there are some whoopses like that like saying

Vaticanus has such -and -such and this stuff about you know this this manuscript doesn't have accent marks well none of them did that's unsealed text

I'm sorry it just didn't hold together it's not wasn't good stuff at that point doesn't mean there wasn't good stuff elsewhere but it wasn't good stuff at that point so we've got it fixed and evidently don't ask me why

I guess when they did the 2003 edition with the Ravi Zacharias as a general editor they got rid of Hank Hanegraaff because Walter Martin's estate doesn't like Hank Hanegraaff instead of going back to the edited text they went back to the old text and just put it all back out there every change everything that had been fixed and it reads exactly as it did before and that paragraph is back on page 115 2003 edition and it makes no more sense today than it did in in 1996 when

I nixed it but it's back so oh well I don't know what made me grab that today and go yeah it's still a

BHP book it's still a Bethany book but obviously the people who have been involved in the editing of it for the 97 edition they said we don't want any of that the family said we want to go back to what

Walter Martin wrote and whether you know and it's like okay but what if he was wrong you know did he claim infallibility we all make mistakes so why not you know but they didn't do that so anyway there's an interesting little insight into what goes on publishing industry and little warning if you're looking at the

King James I'm sorry the Jehovah's Witness section of Kingdom of the Cults and yeah

Walter Martin only isn't yeah what can I say as I promised on the blog

I want to start off today with not gonna get it to all of it because it's a half hour thing but I was sent a link and I honestly

I didn't even remember I remember who sent the link to me I don't know how they got my email address but they sent a link to me about this fellow this preacher talking about R .C.

Sproul and I thought well let's take a listen to what somebody has to say about R .C.

Sproul and I started listening to say and I couldn't believe it as I said my blog I wrote an email to this gentleman and I would assume since I don't hear him say his own name that his

M -O -D -E -N -E would be Modine I could be wrong John Modine but I've just never heard anything like this it's just you know it's one thing to to criticize some it's one thing to disagree with somebody

I mean this guy just simply dismisses R .C. Sproul from the kingdom false gospel and all the rest of stuff and of course he's done the same thing to me too but I was just I was just I could not even begin to believe that someone could could be just so surface level in their criticisms and yet on the basis that kind of criticism

I say well I guess I need to give you some examples here's here's where it gets started something's wrong here they say they're a church but something's wrong with the recipe you can tell if you're saved and filled with the spirit of God so you can imagine my shock and surprise and my sorrow when

I walked into St. Andrew's Chapel and found a non -biblical worship service that and that was the normal practice of the church and its senior pastor

R .C. Sproul R .C. Sproul is truly the emerald legacy of modern American Christianity he is a famous pastor he's a famous pastor if you read

Christianity Today and you watch Christian stations and listen to Christian radio and you and you attend

Christian conferences and you get Christian mailings and you and you're involved in all this you'll say

R .C. Sproul is famous he is was born Robert Charles Sproul born 1939 in Pittsburgh he is a

Calvinist theologian he is the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries named after the

Ligonier Valley outside of Pittsburgh where his ministry started he can be heard daily on Renewing Your Mind Renewing Your Mind it's broadcast all throughout the

United States Ligonier his conference or his charitable foundation hosts several conferences each year the main conference is in Orlando he is the main speaker he holds degrees from Westminster College Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and the

Free University of Amsterdam and Whitefield Theological Seminary four degrees proving that education has nothing to do with worship just sorry uh but it's uh it's

Sproul of course I guess he's never listened to uh to the program even though he's the uh such famous preacher he's never actually heard pronounced his name and that's uh

Whitfield uh sorry but given given how nasty he becomes it's sort of hard for me not to chuckle uh a little bit uh when when you know it's just painfully obvious that I don't really know what they're talking about he has taught at numerous colleges including

Reform Theological Seminary Knox Theological Seminary he is currently senior minister of preaching and teaching at St.

Andrew's Chapel just north of Orlando he is ordained as an elder of the

Presbyterian Church in America although his church has separated from that group he is it's a it's an independent church under no one's authority it's not part of any denomination uh he is obviously a

Calvinistic theologian um he uh he uh a dominant theme of his renewing your mind lessons his holiness of God he has a uh lesson series called from dust to glory 57 part overview of the bible like all

Calvinists he is a prolific writer there's just something about that that causes them to write to uh to share their their doctrine with everyone else his son is

R .C. Sproul Jr. maybe you heard of him recently Defrock kicked out of his uh ministry and then he's ignored that order um and uh he's a big supporter of homeschooling and traditional family roles and um and conservative political causes in Virginia I had gone to St.

Andrew's expecting a Calvinist focused worship service that's what I was expecting and what

I found was far far different far worse it was the equivalent of adulterated spiritual dog food worthless for human consumption he might be famous he might be highly recommended but it was still disgusting uh

I did not get up and walk out my wife and I said we're gonna sit through this thing to the very end it was just an hour -long service they are on the clock they have back -to -back services in the morning and so I would already be you know

I'd be on the clock now be late everyone be waiting that that that changes things a little bit by the way in worship when you've got to obey the clock not the spirit here's some of the things

I found to my surprise during my visit I found out that the pulpit was not in the center of the platform the pulpit was not at the center of the platform we have that problem too did you know that rich have you ever noticed that uh in our old building whoever put it together

I don't know if they just messed up or if it was just the way the pews are put in we're a little bit off -center there's a little bit more room let's see if that's a soundbite we're a little bit off -center yeah

I'm sure you can come up with anything for me um we're a little bit in fact we're even a little off -center with the with the with the pews because the pews are the equals equals uh

I think length on each side so the if you look at it the the the pulpit is not quite it's centered on the baptistry but it's not centered on the actual room itself so which side is it toward that's the question do we lean left or do we lean right it depends on your perspective does it matter whether you're looking out from the pulpit well we're reformed we can't figure out we can't even decide which the front of the church and the back of the church is so anyway

I I'm sorry I I didn't know that uh that centering of the pulpit was determinative orthodoxy oh my gosh this is a nightmare this church hasn't even got the pulpit in the right place

I guess he hasn't been to Europe uh because there there's a lot of there's a lot of pulpits ain't in the middle there in Europe so does the pulpit sit up a little high too

I did that I don't know is that coming next I've not been there I've elevated above the people

I've been told look I've been told that there's a lot of things at at Sproul's church that a reformed baptist would go it's not a reformed baptist church okay there's no question about that and I you know but man when you can kick somebody out of the kingdom for that oh somebody's got a lot to answer for someday so anyway let's um let's let's continue that's a small thing isn't it yeah small thing that's a small thing small thing but I found generally when the pulpits off to the side and the altars in the center

I found that their theology is wrong whoa okay they haven't listened to what Jesus Christ has said in his new testament

I don't remember anything about that I must have missed that part um but there you go they haven't listened it's a sign of what a church and this pastor believes about the bible what their spiritual ancestry is and what their spiritual destiny might be the word of God ought to be at the center of our worship today let me explain this to you if I would yeah the word of God should be at the center of our worship but when did anyone come up with the idea center meant um spatially in the room isn't that like supposed to be like it means it's the origin and source of of our preaching and teaching and worship ask you all to come to church without your bibles and by the way most of the people there didn't bring their bibles that's another warning that's a huge warning sign to me now

I I would like to see that because um uh I know that uh uh 95 percent of everybody at my church has their has their bibles um but um uh maybe

I that I would like to know I would like to observe that I I admit you need to have a a biblically literate uh congregation and I know when

I'm preaching at my church uh I see a lot of bibles out there in fact I I see um I see original language texts in front of me and that that makes me uh glad that I prepared to preach um if I told you and everyone here that I know brings their bible to church um sometimes you forget it and there's spares lying around but if I took all the bibles out of here and I didn't bring a bible and you didn't have any bibles and I said let's worship and let's not reference the bible we're gonna have a hard time worshiping aren't we the only way we know

God today is through his word you know I I've read a number of R .C.'s

books and I have a hard time with the idea that the normative experience in his church is that there is no reference to the bible is that what really is being suggested here you know um if someone showed up at this fellow's church during a business meeting or something would they have a ground to to say that they never preach the bible there too you know you sort of you sort of wonder about that kind of thing so anyway and so if a church says we're going to take his word and put it off to the side that says a lot that says a lot um the word of god ought to be at the center of our worship today not a depiction of angels and latin script as it is at st andrews the second thing

I found is that now whoa gotta catch that one uh everybody knows everybody knows that R .C.

likes latin everybody knows that I've have ever noticed that how how many times when you're listening to R .C.

speak or uh I've used his his uh consequences of ideas um uh type uh book on on uh philosophy in my classes and stuff

R .C. likes latin he really does I prefer greek personally looks a lot better you know but uh that's that's where the latin comes from and later he's going to mention that something he doesn't like is like solus christus and soli deo gloria and sola scriptura and uh you know those little phrases that uh all of us are so thankful for from the information they use these huge colorful paintings it was the dominating theme of the decor of the church these paintings are focused on the works of christ and they obviously because they've got pictures of jesus violate what the biblical admonition not to make a graven image now again um that argument was uh rather fully discussed

I think during the course of uh the um passion of the christ discussion many of you may recall uh how often that particular issue came up and we're not going to revisit that one today there is certainly a a ground for being able to discuss the issue and talk about it and so on and so forth but this just light easy uh dismissal you know if if he's covered all that stuff fairly in the past that's one thing uh something tells me in light of what we're listening to the idea of uh fairly in the past is it's the question worship and bow down before it and that's that's pretty obvious scripture they're violating but worse than that these pictures to me harken back to rome and constant noble they hark it back to a different age when there were icons and veneration people wanted to know the story and the the uh the theology behind these things so they could venerate them and and and and these images became uh became as they were snares to men you know god said don't do this because he knows our our our frame every born -again believer knows that that's in his or her heart you could start worshiping a thing instead of god you've got to worship god in spirit and truth not with accurate paintings these paintings have naked men on them loincloth men depictions of avenging angels as a primatheme beloved we're not supposed to draw pictures of angels i'm not gonna just i'm not gonna disagree with a local church has autonomy to do it at once but they're they're they're they're obviously setting their people up to be snared then the pastoral prayer was strange the pastor in this church read in first person the 38th psalm he read the 38th psalm as if he was god a missionary at the end of this prayer was prayed for as he was sent out to the ukraine and how did they pray for the missionary how did they say oh god send him out there and make him an effective preacher of the gospel uh send him out there and help him to reach people with the good news they said no no we're sending them out there uh quote with rcs books and tapes and and help him to spread rcs books and tapes in the ukraine that's what they prayed i found that strange i found that's just strange fire to me i would like you know i would love to know what the date of this was because i'd like to listen to these these prayers and and things like that and uh find out just just what was what was said um how do you read psalm 38 uh as if you're god a song of david from memorial oh lord rebuke me not in your wrath and chasing me not in your burning anger for your arrows have sunk deep into me and your hand has pressed down upon me there is no soundness in my flesh because of your indignation there is no health in my bones because of my sin for my iniquities have gone over my how do you read that as if you're god i i'm i i hope in you oh lord you will answer oh lord my god how do you what what i you know without listening to i have absolutely no idea how in the world you could read that in any other way than than that i i that's that's weird anyway there were five hymns sung here's the fourth thing i saw five five hymns now you have to understand i'm talking about r .c

sprawl sprawl this isn't a neophyte this guy's got four college degrees this guy is all over america he's one of the most popular pastors out there people love this man they sang five hymns in that church service that morning by now what's the relationship between how popular sprawl is and the number of congregations in the choir the name jesus christ was mentioned one time in those five hymns that must be it hmm well you know uh reading psalm 38 you probably didn't run across the name of jesus either at that particular point in time um but uh you know i imagine it is possible though it would be somewhat unlikely but i i imagine it would be possible if uh you were weren't really paying attention or if you had a focus upon life of david or something like that and you were drawing up your hymns and things like that that you'd have a number of hymns that talk about jehovah and things like that uh but i i could see how only one of five in some situations would specifically have the name jesus in it i'm trying to remember sunday if we i i can't i can never remember which hymns they were but um yeah our god our help in ages past um trinity hymnal i don't know that's that common i'd have to look i'm all sir the name jesus is very very common but i mean as far as you're going to have uh given that a lot of presbyterians sing psalter hymns psalms hymns you're not exactly going to have a whole lot of references the name of jesus and psalm hymns you know hello uh that makes sort of sort of sense but uh anyway yeah i but that's definite definite grounds for kicking rc out of the kingdom i think that's you know that's just that's just obvious here one time that's strange isn't it i mean there was no praise song given to god for salvation there was no first person hymn about oh thank you for saving me i was i was lost i was in sinking sand and and i was sinking on a ship and i was on the right and and i believe there was no song about salvation is that interesting faith of our fathers and this and that but but no song first person about jesus christ saving people no song about jesus uh here's the other thing i found that was weird a strange strange fire attendance was taken oh no attendance at every row was taken you had to fill out a form if you remember who was with you and your family and then they asked guests to fill it out too that's interesting uh you know i believe each church has a time to do what they want but why why would attendance be so important to church i really can't figure that out you can't uh i don't have any problem with that at all excuse me sir but if you're a shepherd of sheep does a shepherd know which one of his sheep are in the flock hello uh what's so tough about that i mean uh i would say we take mental role every uh every sunday we know who's there and who isn't and uh when they've been gone for a certain period of time and stuff like that don't see any problem with that at all the preaching well the preaching was probably the saddest thing it was simply the telling of a few stories that included a historical exposition of the roman rule and dynastic intrigues of the herodians just before the time of christ it was not really preaching as the gospel was at no time mentioned jesus christ his role as savior his blood atonement the fact that you need to believe in him and trust in him for salvation was never mentioned one time in the sermon that's interesting to me it was not really preaching as the bible was not expounded it was not really preaching as the pastor gave the people no application for the few scriptures he glossed over it was not really preaching as the clock not the holy spirit was obviously to me in control he received a signal the time was short from the booth right behind us and he immediately stopped where he was in the in a where he was talking and segued into talking about communion now again um hard to do much commentary uh if you've not heard the sermon i would love to find out from this fellow even though like i said uh the response i got from would be enough to curl your hair if i had any uh so i sort of doubt that i'm going to get the exact date but i might just write to him and say i'd like to know exactly what date you were there i'd like to get obtain the uh the tapes and i would like to uh listen for myself to uh verify the accuracy of your statements and maybe he would voluntarily provide that because i told him i was going to talk about the program today gave him the the uh eight the 877 number it's toll free and uh including in florida and um so on and so forth so not keeping any secrets here but um again since we have all read you know i've read the holiness of god and chosen by god and um these tremendous works that involve exegesis and and we've all seen videos where rc has gone through tremendous presentations of justification and the atonement and all the rest of stuff makes you wonder uh who would go to a church one time one service of someone who has that extensive a published repertoire and representation of their ministry and on the basis of that one visit without any reference to all the rest of that uh in essence as you're going to hear kick this man out of the kingdom he's he's unsaved he's a false teacher false gospel of hawing yards it's it's all it's all there and uh makes you really wonder what kind of uh of a person can say that interesting because they knew when communion had to start because the clock was ticking and and here here is finally where confusion reigned the bulletin identified this part of the worship service as the lord's supper and that's good a church can celebrate the lord's supper you know when when they can celebrate it whenever they want whenever they want god gives the church the autonomy to do that rc sprawl talked about how god was going to consecrate the elements to show god's presence that's interesting language isn't it that's confusing that's not but the lord's supper is about consecrating elements to show god's presence you know that to me was a proverbial slip of the tongue and that showed where rc sprawl's headed he's headed towards rome whoa back up the truck here's here's where simple ignorance gets you in trouble okay uh now i as a reformed baptist do not like particular forms of language that are fairly common amongst my presbyterian brethren i prefer ordinances to sacraments and so on and so forth um but let's back it up and think for just a moment who has been in the lead since the mid 90s in opposing evangelicals and catholics together who appeared on the ankerberg show with john mccarthur uh criticizing evangelicals and catholics together who has been in the lead in speaking seeking to defend justification by grace through faith alone against the roman catholic resurgence of apologetics on these issues to to say that rc is on his way to rome as a result of this is um again uh to to take a single experience and your ignorance of the background of that language and just go how about that must be what it means must be going that direction uh again this is the kind of thing that unfortunately keeps meaningful dialogue and conversation from going on between baptists and presbyterians between credo baptists and pedo baptists between those who have a more high church viewpoint and those who have a lower church viewpoint whatever the different groups might be when you make this kind of a statement without at least allowing the person to define his own terms and speak in his own context uh it doesn't do anybody that's roman language that's popish language that's lutheran language that's language that says in these elements is christ is going to be substantiated transformed into christ the deacons or the elders who passed out the bread and wine certainly marched in unison but i was also troubled by marched in unison what uh by the way someone in channel just said it said something very good and he said to test this guy's view of monergism and synergism see who has one foot in rome and uh i i can't access my email from here right now uh but uh the uh the email that i got did talk about in a disparaging nasty way uh calvin's gospel and so yeah i have a sneaking hunch that if we were to dig around we would discover a rather synergistic hence roman view of the of the perspective of the will that would probably be hiding around there no no toys about it the way by what they gave out they gave out leavened bread isn't that interesting leavened bread and they gave out wine in the center of the trays and grape juice on the outer edge that's interesting now if you know anything about r .c.

sproul jr uh he's he's a drunken bum okay i'm just i'm just telling you what his people say now here here you've got a man standing in front of now i don't know i've only heard one voice so i this guy could have a congregation of you know three i don't know but uh here you've got someone who is in public simply repeating uh rumor and things that are currently being discussed and things have been very painful for a lot of folks and just doing it for effect and and doing it in just a nasty way just just an absolute nasty way and that's why i wrote to him and called him to uh to repent for this kind of stuff but of course all i got back was uh personal attacks and oh and a threat to preach about me uh the funny thing is this is called preaching did you notice well we didn't hear anything about this there the other thing i haven't heard much exegesis in this have you uh i haven't either oops uh oh well well we continue i've never met him but i've got pictures of him drinking hearted apparently first person stories from his church say they all get drunk after church r .c.

sprout jr now it's not a surprise to me if the church is going to have social drinking they're going to have no problem serving what wine for the lord's supper and but what's interesting to me is the double -mindedness because it's like there's some people say oh that's wrong so we're going to have one row of grape juice and then the wine in the center the leavened bread was really strange i mean to leavened bread you need yeast yeast is in the bible a sign a metaphor a symbol of sin why would you why would you use leavened bread that's not that's not what christ used he break the bread he's unleavened bread it's very interesting how they can't figure that out the double -mindedness the compromise the the notice any disagreement with this guy i mean he is the definition of orthodoxy man i mean his understanding is the only understanding there can be there can be no other understanding it we have found our new infallible rule of faith and we need to we need to get him to write all this out for us because we've we've been all confused all the hearkening back to rome since the tyranny of the clock was pressing down on pastor sprout he didn't have time to elucidate on the romanish words he had just spoken there simply wasn't a time but at the very end and the the deacons marched rapidly and things were distributed rapidly if you're wondering my wife and i did not partake but at the very end r .c.

sprawl administered the lord suffered himself and drank out of a chalice of wine alone everyone else had the little thimble cups he drank out of a chalice isn't that interesting reminded me of some catholic priests i know i realized then why there was no preaching of the gospel in this worship service why there was no reference to the gospel and the new birth and the written materials i picked up and had browsed i i realized why there was no call to believe in jesus christ it is because at this church the giving of the lord's supper was a means of grace now here again we have a person who evidently either doesn't understand terminology or just automatically assumes certain things about terminology and you've got this black and white worldview where you've got rome and then you've got the good guys and if you use the term means of grace that means you're with rome problem is of course that the term means of grace has been used of anything that god ordains whereby through our obedience thereto god by his grace assists us in the living of the christian life and so for example in our church we refer to the preaching of the word to the to the proper administration of the ordinances we like that term better uh to the fact that we gather together in our common confession of faith that these are means of grace not that these are channels of grace not not ex opera operato uh sacramentalism that's where we would definitely draw a line and say no that's that's not our understanding at all uh but the idea that you indeed can by your obedience to what god calls you to do that this is the normative way in which the church is to function and uh if you don't make meaningful distinctions then you're going to end up with a little teeny tiny circle around you yourself and yourself and maybe one or two other people and everybody else in the world is going to be part of the big bad enemy and uh the idea of christ having built his church is going to sort of like fall in its face it's what they believe and i should i would imagine i didn't examine but i didn't see a baptister either and i would imagine they don't baptize in the church uh except they probably roll out a little thing for infants i would imagine hello he's a presbyterian mate that uh that if i would have time or the stomach to further examine the cuisine there we'd find that baptist or the baptism of infants is conducted there and also considered a means of saving grace i'm so sorry but when you go to a presbyterian church don't be overly surprised if they're pato baptists hello i mean oh come on i i mean i bet they have pato baptism there really you think so uh yeah presbyterians do tend to do that and that's why bill shishko and i are going to be debating that subject but thankfully i know that bill shishko will listen to the reform he's listened to what reform baptists have to say and i've listened to what he has to say and that means we'll actually be debating the other guy's position based on the bible what a concept that will be now some may object to my objections they may say you are too judgmental brother modine some may shut me out as a spiritual bomber how dare you go down there as a oh yes to that church and just i didn't disrupt anything i just sat and observed we're glad i just sat and observed i'm just preaching to you and telling you what i saw showing you how it measures up with scripture i haven't seen a lot of that i do preach about religious freedom and liberty and i'm not telling that church they should shut down i'm just saying they need to look at the bible then oh wait a minute we're going to get a little bit farther here and he's going to say false gospel wrong gospel and rc scrolls a false teacher so why not say they should shut down i mean unless you're just simply saying that well we live in america we should have religious freedom but uh are we talking about as a christian church as far as i can tell he's not going to say this is a christian look at the bible i i think they they think they're one they're going one way but they're going another way i really think they're confused rc sprawl is not the pastor of a small church of no reputation he is a hugely popular speaker he is the leader of the alliance between baptists and covenant theologians and other conservative branches in the evangelical church today and what's worse than that rc sprawl doesn't stay in orlando now i'd just like to stop and put my hand up and say hi i'm a baptist and i'm a covenantal theologian hello hi there uh we're still here and we're we've been around for a long time he doesn't just live in sanford he's out on the road all the time he's traveling uh he not as much as he used to remember rc had a stroke a while back and he can't travel nearly as much as he used to here's his pulpit he shares platforms with men like john macarthur albert moeller joseph stowell jerry farwell david jeremiah charles stanley and steve lawson a big baptist pastor in the south these are men who regardless of their stand on separation regardless of their stand on ecumenical manners the men i just named are are men who all preach the new birth yeah and what you're about to be told is that rc sprawl doesn't preach the new birth now could he have gone to almost any bookstore and pulled books by rc sprawl off talking about regeneration and the new birth of course he could have but yeah we didn't want to do that say what you will about charles stanley and his divorce he still preaches the new birth say what you will about david jeremiah and his compromise and the way he's changing his church he still preaches the new birth say what you will about jerry farwell and his linking up with sun young moon and the moonies and and and and his compromise with the state and his compromise with say what you will about about fall he still preaches wow uh if we just start trying to pick up each one of these these bombs flying by here uh it would it'd be quite interesting but it worked say what you will about john macarthur and his his schismatic teaches about the death of price versus the blood and and say what you will about about who he fellowships with john still preaches the new birth these are who preach the new birth for salvation what i'm what i'm talking about is they're re -baptizers you know what i'm talking about these are men that say that that that if you come and believe we're going to baptize you and and the fact that you were baptized as a baby doesn't matter they're all re -baptizers that word in in old english is anabaptist the word corrupted today is baptist that's why we're called baptist it wasn't because they loved us it's because we were re -baptizers that's just been shortened down a couple of times we're anabapt we're baptizers again here you come in here and believe and we'll baptize you again because the bible teaches after your new birth you're supposed to be baptized as a believer not as an infant that's what the bible teaches and these men who share a platform who speak with him who work who who fellowship with him pray with him and treat him as a brother are all anabaptists are all re -baptizers they all preach and teach the new birth now notice notice the connection that that is mistakenly made there uh the the new birth equals re -baptism uh does he not understand what sproll believes about this i don't know i i can't begin to tell but anybody who walks into presbyterian church is surprised they engage in beta baptism probably doesn't understand what they understand by that and uh i would probably bet that that r .c.

sproll does actually uh speak at some places with other presbyterians so they're not all uh baptists yeah he gets along with us baptists i appreciate that and you know it might have been good if this fellow had listened to the debate between john mccarthur and r .c.

sprawl on baptism yeah that would have been that would have been really good that would have been that would have helped helped a lot uh but evidently he didn't you're not a christian based on your parents church membership so all those men agree uh now these men who teach and their churches apparently preach uh lip service to this baptism believers only these men who say and teach salvation is something that happens to a sinner when the sinner believes in jesus christ these are men who preach a transactional salvation instantaneous it's not a process and i and i imagine if i study r .c.

sprawl's church i'm going to find out it's not a transactional salvation he believes in that there are different means of grace there's the baptism means of grace and the lord supper means of grace and see he doesn't understand what means of grace means and he hasn't even bothered to pick up the man's books can you imagine preaching a whole sermon just blasting somebody and he's going to say the guy's a false teacher and they're published and you won't even take the time to look at what they've written and when they've written extensively on this stuff he's written on justification by faith i'll be the faith means of grace they probably all intertwine and since he's probably not saved he can get away with that sort of confusion i i had assumed that when we went to worship god and rc sprawl's church we would at least have the preaching of the new birth in common you see that's very important in worship if you're going to worship with people that can preach at least the new birth you've got a lot in common with them you and i need to worship we need to cry out to god it is normal for us to worship it is normal it is normal for us to worship on sunday it is not normal to miss church and not where that's abnormal if you can miss church sunday after sunday after sunday never worship there's something abnormal about you maybe you've never had the new birth maybe you better read first john um see i i wouldn't happen to disagree at that point uh this little section here the people of god want to meet with the rest of the people of god and they want to worship and they want the fellowship together no two ways about it do not forsake the gathering together we read in revelation 4 about the the 420 elders falling down and worshiping him that lives forever and ever all the examples that exist in the bible show that believers ought to worship they have to be glad to worship they ought to be they ought to be glad to shout praises it's a wonderful privilege that we have the only people by the way worshiping are believers accurately through the blood of christ they're born again believers anyone today who does not enjoy worshiping is most likely not a believer anyone today who can't be bothered to worship is really not ready to be with god they're saying i want to be with almost nothing to do with myself of course believers therefore ought to be worshiping believers in jesus christ people who are united by the new birth and not united by the pope of rome people who are united in the body of christ by the baptism of the holy spirit they receive at the moment of their salvation and here at st andrew's chapel i found another gospel that's not a gospel is being preached how sad that is now did you catch that like i said he was gonna say this is another gospel based on one sermon and ignoring everything the scroll has said he's gonna he's gonna go ahead and he's gonna kick the he's gonna kick sprawl out of the kingdom how sad that is the preacher of that false gospel is in close fellowship with other pastors and teachers many of them good men listen you can hardly imagine what this does to people you can hardly imagine that place was packed twice it was packed twice with people marching to hell they've never heard the preacher of the new birth they're taking communion they're getting did you hear that did you hear that let's stop there because we've got a phone call we need to take anyways did you hear that they've never heard the preaching the new birth how on earth could someone be so incredibly arrogant as to go to one meeting ignore all the videotapes all the cds all the debates all the books years and years and years and years of ministry and be so arrogant as to say something like how is that possible i i just i i can't begin to conceive of it they've never heard the new birth i went there once and i don't know what they believe in fact i think they baptized infants but they've never heard the new birth i'm sorry but when i hear something i just want to well like i said pull my hair out if i had it because it to call that grossly unfair misrepresentational straw man argumentation and i think a man who has has stood for as long as rc sprawl does somebody's got to stand up and say you know what mister i've never heard of you i've never seen any of your books i've not seen you standing in the gap i've not seen you putting yourself on the line and this is reprehensible absolutely reprehensible somebody that you trust needs to call you to repentance for this kind of activity it's you just don't do this you know there's there's times to take somebody to the woodshed but you need to know what in the world you're talking about and uh oh my goodness i i just i wasn't gonna play all that much of it we're almost toward the end of it i don't know i don't want to play any more of it but no no no take a breath okay everybody stand up stretch you know do that little thing and we're going to totally shift gears here because uh we've had someone who has been uh waiting online for a long long time and his topic has absolutely positively nothing to do whatsoever with rc sprawl sorry rc sprawl uh but let's let's go go to chicago and talk with richard hi hello how you doing okay you're gonna have to totally grind our gears here in the last few minutes and totally change our our direction but that's okay okay this is about a man named sam gip he's a defender of the king james only issue have you heard of him uh what you need to do is you need to get hold of uh the eight part series on the john ankerberg show on the king james only movement where you will find that samuel gip and the two other defenders including a fellow by name of chambers of the king james only position uh debated five representatives uh one of the niv one of the new king james one of the new american standard and then two professors dr daniel wallace of dallas seminary and myself and so i have sat in john ankerberg's studio and debated sam gip on the subject of king james only ism so uh not only do i know him along those lines but i also cited him in my book the king james only controversy oh is that the one where someone went from youth when talking about i think the nasb yeah that's that's called a lie um and it is a well -known and documented lie and has been documented as a lie for a long long time but the king james only people keep telling the lie and in fact if you'd like to go to aomin .org

there is a article there where i go through it since i was there uh dr wilkins who had just flown in from athens and who takes a migraine headache medication at the beginning of one of the episodes got a frog in his throat and so john ankerberg said and pack that up we want to try to get this done a little bit faster in fact ankerberg then chided all of us because we were giving way too long answers to his questions and this is only a 30 -minute program and you don't actually have 30 minutes so they backed it up started again dr wilkin went into his uh response he responded just fine on the subject of gail ripplinger and i actually leaned over to a fellow who's now actually deceased uh art farstad of the new king james version and i said to him you watch uh the king james only people will make something of somebody getting a frog in their throat and he said no way i said you watch and within i'd say three months text mars uh put out this idea of someone being struck dumb the funny thing is he had all the voice in the world to demonstrate that gail ripplinger had no idea what the world she was talking about uh after taking a drink of water so you know if god's striking somebody uh without the ability to speak is taken care of by a drink of water uh that's probably not god doing anything at all so um we could have i suppose turned the tables and pointed to places where these individuals uh uh you know stumbled over a word or something like that but you know we don't have to get into that kind of silliness we can just let the facts speak for themselves okay my specific question was the issue with x chapter 12 verse 4 with easter yes have you dealt with that in your book i'm not sure yes actually uh i did uh and uh his uh his attempted uh explanation there is just absolutely positively amazing once again um you have the the original language right in front of of anybody everybody's faces and if anybody wants to look at that particular text what's being referred to is the fact that uh for example new american standard says when he had seized him he put him in prison delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him intending after the passover to bring him out before the people and the uh the greek is tau pasca and it is very easy to go into any of the materials that were written by the jews around this period of time it is very easy to look at what they in would have understood that to mean and the only reason there's any dispute here is that if you look at the king james version uh it at that point renders instead of uh passover uh it renders it as uh as easter now of course most people are aware of the fact that um uh that particular it says specifically when he had apprehended him he put him in prison and delivered him to four court court quaternions of soldiers uh to keep him intending after easter to bring him forth the people well uh the dating of easter is dependent upon the dating of passover and historically that people might be aware of the quarter decimal controversy in church history and the east had one way of determining when easter was and the west had another way of determining when easter was blah blah blah but uh anyway the term easter uh would only have meaning to people way down the road looking back at this uh because it would not have been a term that was in utilization by the people of the time and so that's not what the jews would have understood the term to mean tapasca had a specific meaning at that time and that would be the term the passover uh only in hindsight could a person say well that eventually was tied into the development of a celebration called easter and that is why the uh the king james translators happened to render it that way uh i don't recall looking at it right now i'm looking on the uh the lemma here um let me look through the new testament i have a feeling let me just look at a couple yeah um look at john 12 -1 for example uh john 12 -1 in the king james says and when six and jesus then jesus six days before the passover came to bethany exact same greek term uh you got to remember that the king james translators did not have a um editing uh committee in essence there are different translation teams at different places like oxford cambridge places like that and the final product unfortunately is is inconsistent for example in matthew and in romans the very same greek phrase uh you shall not murder is translated in one place you shall not murder in other places translated you shall not kill it's the exact same greek phrase it should be the same in both but the final editing did not smooth those things out and so you can find a number of places where pasca um is in the king james version simply as uh passover uh luke 22 11 in the king james version where shall eat the passover of my disciples exact same greek term but in that one place uh they they render it our christ our passover lamb first corinthians 5 7 uh over and over again that one place they uh they missed it and but what the gip is doing is he's got to defend the king james as the final uh authority in all things and uh as a result he has to come up with this incredibly wild way of defending the use of term easter in that one place uh which i guess it would be consistent there would mean he'd have to do the exact same thing with all the rest of the appearances of toposca but he doesn't do so which is what demonstrates the inconsistency sorry we had to hurry a little bit quickly on that brother but i appreciate your phone call and uh yes that is addressed in the king james only controversy if you want to take a look at that well uh amazing stuff on the program today i'll listen to the rest of it see if there's anything edifying or worthwhile to listen to the rest of that particular quote -unquote sermon in regards to rc scroll and then uh continue on with uh spong and all sorts of other stuff the next time we gather on the dividing line which will be next tuesday morning 11 o 'clock our time we'll see you then god bless we need to be brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

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