November 5, 2018 Show with Chaplain Collie Foster & Jenny Reese Clark on “Lessons to Be Learned From ‘Indivisible’, the Movie”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity that are living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this fifth day of November 2018.

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And before I get to introducing our guest today, I was just very delighted to receive just moments ago, seconds before the program started,

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I received a wonderful commendation from actor Alfonso Rachel.

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He also goes by the name Zoe Rachel. He was Detective Stark. He portrayed

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Detective Stark in the recent movie Gosnell, which is still in theaters, the movie about the world's biggest serial killer.

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It is a quite a powerful film that I urge you all to see. Kermit Gosnell, who's now spending a life in prison, who went above and beyond what the normal abortionist does, although as a very strongly pro -life individual

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I could say that there's barely any difference, to be perfectly honest. And I think that actually comes out in the film, especially during the cross -examination by the actor portraying

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Kermit Gosnell's defense attorney when he is cross -examining a legitimate and highly regarded abortion doctor that you see the fact that there's very little going on.

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That's why he was bringing up the technical things that happen in a typical abortion to defend his client.

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But this man was a monster who was delivering babies prematurely in order to murder them because it's an easier task for a quote -unquote doctor to do something like that than to abort the baby when it's larger inside the womb.

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But Zoe Rachel, the actor as I said portraying Detective Stark in Gosnell, said it's a blessing to get to talk with Chris Arnzen.

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Glad he's doing his part connecting and filtering culture and politics through the gospel to help preserve our

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Republic. Thank you very much Zoe Rachel. I'm honored by that accommodation that you sent me and it will be up on the

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Iron Trip and Zion website God willing very shortly. Well today I am delighted to have two guests one who is a returning guest who will be our second guest today.

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We'll actually be joining my first guest about an hour into the program.

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But my first guest is a first -time guest Chaplain Colley Foster. He is a retired major in the

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United States Army. Retired from active duty in January of 2018 after 20 years of service in the

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United States Army. He's currently working as corporate chaplain with Corporate Chaplains of America and we are going to be discussing the movie

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Indivisible. Lessons to be learned from Indivisible the movie and we'll start with Chaplain Colley Foster for the first hour and we'll both be joined by God willing

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Jenny Reese Clark who is the wife of Chaplain Caleb Schumacher 1st

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Battalion 38th Field Artillery Regiment in the United States Army and she is a blogger a motivational speaker and author of the novel

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Field of Influence. But it's my honor and privilege first of all to welcome the very first time to Iron Trip and Siren Radio Chaplain Colley Foster.

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Thank you Chris, it's an honor to be with you today. It's an honor to be with you too and what we typically do when we have first -time guests on especially or actually only when those guests happen to be

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Christian and that would be the majority of our guests but sometimes we do have non -Christians on the program but when we have a

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Christian on the guest for the first time we typically want them to give a summary of their own salvation testimony, get an idea of what kind of a religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and then what providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and eventually were used by him to save you.

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I grew up in a Christian family. I was exposed to church and was exposed to the gospel, you know, just about throughout my entire childhood.

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When I was about seven or eight years old I committed my life to Christ, of course, realizing that, you know, as a seven -year -old you have not really done a whole lot of terrible bad things in your life and so as I grew up in the church and grew in my

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Christian walk, it was often I struggled with my salvation because I would hear individuals give their testimony of how

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God had saved them from drugs, sex, you know, you name it, they'd been saved from these things and so I, like I said,

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I struggled with it and I finally one day went to my pastor and we sat down and talked for a while and I explained to him what

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I was struggling with and he helped me so much to understand. His comment to me was, colleagues, that you were not saved, you know, out of those things but you were saved from those things and so that helped me so much to help me realize that, you know, yes

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I had not gone down that terrible road as some people have but God, through His grace, kept me from having to go through those things that often people have to go through in their lives.

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You know, it was probably when I was about 18, 19 years old, God began to, you know, place a call on my life for the ministry and I went on to college and seminary and, you know,

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I pastored for about six years and then, you know,

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God began to deal with me about, you know, the call into the chaplaincy so I began to look into what was necessary to enter into the military chaplaincy.

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I'll be honest with you, I had a desire, first of all, to go into the Air Force but that was just not in God's plan so I pursued the

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Army and, like I said, 20 years later I'm retiring from the

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Army. So it's, you know, and God has brought me through so much over the years after, you know, just to share a little piece of my life.

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When I was about two years into my time in the Army, I was diagnosed with cancer and in all they were supposed, you know, the

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Army was supposed to have captured me out and, you know, sent me home but it was not my desire and I, you know,

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I have to say that I was struggling again with my faith and, you know, why did, you know, why did

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God bring me to this point in my life to just leave me hanging?

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And so we had people literally praying for me around the world for my healing but also for my spiritual journey that I was going through at the time and I made it through that and 18 years later

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I'm still alive, doing well, cancer -free and God has used me so much in my experience with cancer to help other individuals, especially in my ministry.

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I served two tours as a hospital chaplain in the

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Army and so I was able to use that, my experience as a cancer survivor to minister to individuals who was, you know, working or dealing with the same issues.

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Well, praise God. So yeah, so that's how, you know, God has worked so much in my life and then, of course, after retirement

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He's brought me into, you know, kept me in the ministry doing basically the same thing I did in the

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Army but just doing it in the corporate world. Yeah, tell us about Corporate Chaplains of America, exactly what is that organization and what does it do?

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Well, right, it's an organization that we place chaplains in the workplace throughout, just about throughout the, well, throughout the

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United States and also into Canada where we've, we place chaplains in companies to provide spiritual care, personal care.

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We provide counseling, whether it be personal counseling, marriage counseling, spiritual counseling.

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We're just there to, you know, bring God to the workplace because typically the average person in their lifetime will spend about 90 % of their life at the workplace.

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So what better place to have God go in your life is right there in the workplace because we tend to bring everything that goes on in our lives, whether it's home issues, financial issues, whatever, we bring it to the workplace and so we're able to minister to men and women in the workplace and help them get through their days and those difficult days they face.

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Now, is the Corporate Chaplains of America organization comprised of chaplains from one theological camp or are you a broader organization that would expand beyond the limitations of a handful of denominations?

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How exactly does that work? Well, the, you know, and, you know,

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I can speak to the point, the fact that we, just everyone that's part of the

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Corporate Chaplains are evangelicals. So our mission is to go into a workplace to establish relationships with the workers with the hope that we can, at some point, present the gospel in a non -threatening way so that, you know, individuals can, you know, have that opportunity to accept

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Christ into their life. Great. And just for our listeners, information, we'll be announcing this later,

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God willing, but if you want more information about Corporate Chaplains of America, go to chaplain .org,

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chaplain .org, that's C -H -A -P -L -A -I -N .org. Well, the movie that we are going to be addressing today is

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Indivisible. I will give a synopsis of the movie that the producers of this film provide.

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Indivisible is based on the extraordinary true story of Army Chaplain Darren Turner and his wife

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Heather. With a strong, faith -filled marriage, the Turners are ready to follow their calling, serving

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God, family, and country. Fresh from seminary and basic training, Chaplain Turner and his family arrive at Fort Stewart, yet before the

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Turners can even unpack their new house, Darren is deployed to Iraq.

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Heather is left caring, or taking care of, their three young children alone, as well as serving the families of the others deployed soldiers.

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Despite a desperate, I'm sorry, despite a desire to stay connected with their loved ones, the harsh realities of war take a daily toll over the course of the battalion's extended deployment.

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Meanwhile, back home, babies are born, kids keep growing, and nerves are frayed with every late -night knock at the door.

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With deeply etched battle scars, the soldiers' long -awaited homecoming is much different than any of their families anticipated.

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Carrying burdens the others can't comprehend, the Turners must decide if they're willing to face one more battle.

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The fight to save their marriage, from the director of The Grace Card and the studio that brought you

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Fireproof and War Room, comes indivisible. The story of one marriage, one family, under God.

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The movie stars Sarah Drew, Justin Bruning, Jason George, Tia Mowry, and Madeline Carroll.

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I saw the movie last night. By the way, we are conducting this interview by the strong urgings of my friend

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Jenny Reese Clark, who I mentioned earlier is going to be joining us later. She is wife of Chaplain Caleb Schumacher, and she saw the film and loved it, urged me to do an interview on it, and also recommend that Chaplain Collie Foster be a part of our discussion.

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Jenny's husband is away overseas, actually, I believe in South Korea.

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I can't remember. Do you remember Chaplain Collie? Yeah, he's in South Korea. So I saw the movie last night, and I enjoyed the movie.

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It is always refreshing to see a movie that honors God, does not mock

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God or mock Christianity, that takes the belief in God with great importance, does not portray

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Christians as lunatics or as hypocritical evildoers and so on, as many films do.

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I'm just going to give my two disagreements with the film, and you can, when you pick up on your view of the film, and also how you think we can learn lessons from it.

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My main concerns with the film are that although the gospel is present in the film, we do hear during a baptism and at least a couple of other times the fact that we need

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Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for life, for new life.

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And so that is a very good thing that we actually have the gospel presented in the movie.

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My concern was we're not really told that I can remember in the movie why that is the case.

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We're not told of the sinful nature of man. We're not told of man's worthiness of hell.

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So that is one concern that I have. And the other concern that I have, and this is more of a cinematic or storytelling concern, the two of the major characters in the movie, and I'm promising not to give away too much, so obviously this is a movie and people want to see it without having the ending spoiled or anything, so I do not plan on doing that.

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But there's two characters in the movie who are rebels, who are having serious problems in their lives and with God, and the transformations that take place, one of which was because of the other one we're not really ever told, to my recollection, that it was a gospel related transformation in the other person's life, the black neighbor of the chaplain.

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But we're not told of his transformation.

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But the problem I have as far as storytelling or in regarding to filmmaking is that those transformations happen very quickly in the film and we really don't get to really discover and know more about the the darkness of these individuals for any length of period of time so that we can more appreciate the transformation that takes place in them.

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And so I don't know if that's because of time limitations, they wanted to dedicate more of the film to other aspects of this true story, but that would be

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I guess the main thing. And by the way I do have to tell our listeners because they may be expecting something else when they go to see

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Indivisible, this is not really what you would call a war movie.

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It's not a movie that has a lot of battle footage in it and so on.

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Of course there is some, but it's not a movie that would be comparable to Saving Private Ryan for instance or the the movie that just flew out of my head that maybe you can jog my memory about the

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Seventh -day Adventist soldier that was a really phenomenal true story. Do you know what movie

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I'm speaking of? Hacksaw Ridge. Hacksaw Ridge.

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Those movies are much more vivid and graphic in detail about battle and war and so on.

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And of course there is a disagreement amongst Christians on whether or not

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Christian filmmakers should create or whether Christians should view and take their families to see movies that are graphic in their violent depictions of war or death or murder or anything else similar to that.

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There were even Roman Catholics, there were even traditionalist Roman Catholics that were protesting against Mel Gibson's film

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The Passion of the Christ because of the detailed footage or should

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I say depictions of Christ being tortured and so on. So this is something that people are in disagreement over.

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Now having said all that I just wanted to get all that off my chest and I do want to say that I did enjoy the film and I do believe that it is something that I would recommend people see especially with their families and their children because there's nothing in the movie that is really

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I think something that that parents would need to prevent their children from seeing.

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But anyway if you could pick up where I left off there in your assessment of the film. Well I agree with you there was some you know they did not elaborate a lot on the conversion or the transformation process but I think a lot of it just in watching the movie

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I think a lot of it was for time purpose because the if you went into full details into the to the life of the major and his transformation and others that it would end up being a three or four hour movie.

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So I could I can see where that they were having to keep it to a reasonable time.

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You know I think that the the movie portrayed very accurately the life in the day of a chaplain.

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I know that I told my wife we went to see it Saturday and I told my wife after it was all over with that it brought back some very uncomfortable feelings and uncomfortable you know memories you know just some of the things that we experienced while I was over there because actually

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I was sharing with Jenny yesterday we were texting one another and shared with her that actually

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Darren and I were in Iraq at the same time. I don't know

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Darren but we were actually in Iraq at the same time during the the you know the extension because we were there for 12 months rotations and then all of a sudden they started doing a build -up to 15 months and so that's where Darren was pulled in that he was gone for the 15 months.

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So I was there during the same time frame that he was and I you know and because the reason why there was the build -up is that we were starting to see more attacks more you know insurgency so that the the violence was beginning to increase and so again watching some of those the the movie playing out in some of the attacks that were taking place on their five and things like that it did bring back a lot of memories and needless to say

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I had to sit there and hold my wife's hand quite a bit. Wow. Because it was just bringing back a lot of memories.

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Yeah when you said with the memories more from the brief battle scenes or from his post -traumatic stress disorder that he developed the chaplain?

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I think I think you know I think most of mine was just reliving some of those you know battle the battle situations because you know

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I did not very fortunately when I was in Iraq I did not lose any of my soldiers and I'm very thankful for that we did not lose anyone mainly because I was not in a in a line near a combat unit

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I was in a I was in a signal unit and so we we did have soldiers that would go out what we would call outside the wire but it was not like a infantry or armored unit fight space where they were probably outside the wire most all the time so I did not see a lot of death like he did and you know the but I was you know

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I was at a location where we did on numerous occasions were being attacked with you know borders and rockets and so I experienced some of the same things that he did but just maybe not quite as graphic as his were you know so I fortunately

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I did not you know suffer from the PTSD that many of our soldiers deal with after deployments you know

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I got still there's times even now that's been I was I was deployed from 2006 to 2008 in Iraq and even today

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I still experience there's certain sounds there certain smells that will bring back memories for me so to a degree you know that there's probably in my in my head there's some of that it still lingers there but it's not to the to the extent that Darren went through after after deployment it's interesting how you having been a veteran because of the fact that you actually experienced certain things that those scenes would trigger memories unpleasant and hard to deal with memories whereas I as just your average

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American moviegoer who has obviously been desensitized because of all the violence that I have seen growing up in movies this perhaps you would even agree that this in spite of any negative memories it it stirred up in you it's really compared to many war movies very mildly portrayed in comparison

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I have to use that word comparison and there is not a lot of gore or anything like that in in the in the filming of the movie no no you know there's no gore and I appreciate that part but I guess a lot of it you know again again not to give away too much of the too much of the movie but that one instant where he and his chapel assistant are walking and talking and the mortar hits behind them and explodes and they go flying that's probably the most graphic part of the movie that I that I remember right now and you know and that's in but that still brings back memories because there was a times during my deployment that came very close to you know being being hit with mortars and rockets within not a matter of you know maybe a hundred feet on one on one occasion so if that's what that's what brought it back it wasn't the gore it was just hearing those sounds of explosions and like I said even today you know ten years later

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I can if I hear certain sounds it will

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I will have this you know just this uneasy feeling that comes over me and I have to realize you know what

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I'm not deployed anymore I'm safe and sound in the United States and I've got my family around me so I don't have anything to fear and so that's you know so I mean other than I mean other than that one thing most part the movie was very mild compared to other movies that I've seen before right and as I said there's a difference there's a difference of opinion amongst even believers about to what extent if any the film should should carry those as somebody as I said earlier who has been watching movies all my life even before I was a

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Christian and seeing some pretty gruesome and realistic depictions of war and murder and so on I was pretty desensitized watching the film

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I almost I almost thought to myself why does this chaplain of post -traumatic stress disorder

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I mean what he experienced as I'm sitting there watching it in in in the realms of a movie you want you

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I couldn't help but wonder wow that was a big transition from what he experienced to having post -traumatic stress disorder and yet of course the reality that he experienced nobody can know the intensity of that reality watching a movie no you can't and yeah

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I think a lot of times I mean it's not it's not just chaplains but I think that sometimes we and I'm speaking for myself the things that we experience the things that we you know came in contact with many times we internalize and I and I'm speaking for myself

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I internalize things because you know we don't always have someone that we can turn to and be able to talk to you know we we listen to our soldiers we you know when when

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I was active we listen to our soldiers we heard their story but there was often times that we couldn't we couldn't tell our story you know so that sometimes that and I can't say that that's what was going on with Darren because like I said

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I don't I don't know Darren personally but sometimes we we tend to internalize everything and we don't talk about it because we don't always have anyone to talk to by the way you said something that triggered a memory in me that I have not even thought about in a long time when you were saying that certain sounds can even trigger unpleasant memories from your military experience and so on there was a dear couple in my church that I've known since the 1980s

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Nigel and Barbara Stone both of them are now in glory with Christ for eternity they were

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I'm assuming 20 years my senior approximately they never would divulge their ages but but I can remember they were from London England and even though I think they spent most of their lives in the

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United States moving here probably in their 20s or 30s they still held on to their dignified

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British accents and Barbara Stone my

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Nigel may have to but he never spoke of it to me but Barbara Stone remembers the bombing of London was a child by the

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Nazis by the Germans I should say during World War two and she was very disturbed and uneasy every 4th of July living here in the

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United States but with all the the fireworks going off it triggered that memory every single year that she heard the fireworks it triggered that unpleasant memory as a child experiencing the bombing of London so that's an interesting phenomenon you mentioned there it is you know and it you know and for me it's it's something just as simple as driving by and a dumpster is being emptied and the metal slapping metal that sound sounds just like a mortar exploding

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Wow and the metal the metal slaps against the metal and there's been many times that I could

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I've been driving by and there's been a dumpster being emptied by the the dumpster you know the truck and I hear that sound and when

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I first returned from Iraq I would actually push the gas quite hard and get out of it get away from it and then

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I began to realize you know what I'm safe I'm not I'm not in the in the war zone so but still you know there's those moments sounds and smells will cause your the brain is a wonderful creative thing but it also is it logs a lot of memory and it's the memory sticks with certain triggers

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I don't know how to explain it but I'm sure some of our psychiatrists or psychologists could explain it better than I could we're gonna go to our first station break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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CHRIS ARNZEN give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I can fully imagine if you have a question for Chaplain Colley Foster that involves some kind of disturbing or sorrowful or terrifying military experience or combat experience

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I could very completely understand you're wanting to remain anonymous but if it's not a personal and private issue please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the good old

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that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com hi

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I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am

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.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull join us this

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Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor and welcome back this is

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Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our two guests today one of whom is already on the show but we have chaplain

40:39

Collie Foster we're soon going to be joined God willing by a chaplain's wife

40:45

Jenny Reese -Clark we are addressing the movie that is in theaters right now a movie that we have all seen and I saw actually last night that I do recommend in spite of any differences

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I have with the filmmaking or some of the the content theologically I'm speaking of Indivisible and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is

41:15

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com the the issue of I wanted to ask you a question chaplain

41:24

Collie about post traumatic stress disorder it is something that most of us haven't have not experienced and will likely not experience ever

41:38

I know that this is not only attached to those who have been veterans of war some people have this just because of a horrible childhood that was marked with with cruel cruelty and perhaps even physical or sexual violence and that kind of a thing and even those who are involved in the police force or the fire department may have this but it's explained to our listeners in more detail from your knowledge as a chaplain

42:11

I know that you're not a psychologist to my knowledge but as a chaplain tell us more about this post -traumatic stress disorder that we hear about most of us hear about it on television or in a movie well

42:25

I mean you know like you said I don't I don't know a whole lot about it from a psychological standpoint

42:32

I just know that you know as I said before our brains are so uniquely created that the the brain will actually try its best to protect itself and so I think part of the process as I understand it and is that you know when we do face a traumatic experience whether it be combat whether it be through physical or emotional you know torture so to speak it's that our brain shuts down and we we and so our we're stuck in one particular area where we're struggling with that I know a number of years ago

43:20

I was able to attend a some training to kind of help me understand a little bit about post -traumatic stress and to maybe even help soldiers work through it and one of the one of the tools that's out there is what they call prolonged exposure therapy and it's it's a it's a long a lengthy process for an individual to go through it could be 12 to 18 you know therapy sessions that a person has taken through and just like the the word the title of it prolonged exposure is that an individual sitting down with a therapist they literally tell their story over and over and over until they all reach what they call a sticking point or an area that they're struggling with that you know whatever trauma they've gone through that it may be they're not able to get past that particular event and so the therapist would take them through the process until they're able to overcome that particular traumatic event and then they will then continue their story so depending on what's happened to an individual whether it be combat or physical or emotional abuse and they're in there and they had a you know their the brain was trying their trying its best to protect that individual from memory and also it comes back to haunt them so a therapist would take them through this long process and help them realize that when they you know hear a sound smell a particular smell or they they can't get past that traumatic event the the process that they go through helps them to realize that what

45:27

I'm experiencing is not real what I mean what I mean by not real the the event took place but them reliving it is not real and so once they're able to get past the idea that what they're reliving is not reality they can many times and I've seen it where the soldier in which

45:52

I can you know speak to have been able to overcome a lot of their

45:58

PTS experience and live you know very normal functional in your life without you know without having to deal with the the traumatic event all over again one of the most profound truths that came out of the movie for me that is something that we who are

46:23

Christians have to remind ourselves over and over and over again even those dare

46:29

I say who like myself or Calvinists I happen to be a I happen to be a thoroughgoing five -point

46:35

Calvinist Reformed Baptist and I believe in the sovereignty of God over all things that have occurred and will ever occur in heaven on earth and anywhere in the universe they are by his design they are ordained and occur by his decree but still since I even though I believe in that theologically

46:57

I very often find myself getting disappointed and being angry and losing patience with things that occur in this life now of course when we ourselves are sinning or or disobeying

47:13

God or ignoring biblical commands and so on or ignoring biblical truths we are always to correct ourselves we are always to repent and so on we are not to be satisfied with our behavior but as far as things that are beyond our control especially

47:33

I very often find myself not acting like someone who believes that God is in total control over everything but the chaplain that was the superior of the main character in the movie he reminds the army chaplain his his subordinate

48:00

Darren Turner he reminds him that he is not only to trust in God when

48:09

God does things according to the way he meaning Darren believes that they should occur that God very often acts in ways that bring us sorrow that disappoint us that upset us but God is nonetheless still in control just as much as he is in control at all times and we are not to only think

48:37

God is loving and merciful and and all -powerful if he answers prayer according to the way we want him to answer prayer

48:45

I mean obviously I'm assuming that that was a powerful truth that you gleaned from the movie as well yeah

48:52

I agree and I think you know that I mean I'm a firm believer that you know everything is in God's hands and that everything we face you know

49:05

God's going to get the glory out of it no matter what you know it may be that we go through some very difficult times in our lives that we struggle and as you and you've already said and I actually was talking with a young man today you know sometimes our own action we there there's always consequences to any action you know if if we if we do good and there's good consequences but if we do bad there's always going to be bad consequences and so there's it's by choices that we make so yeah again not everything is within our is in our control those things that we do control by our actions we will pay consequences for and we may face some very difficult times but I think that no matter what happens

50:00

I have to go back to you know what Romans 828 tells us that whatever you know and realizing that we often take that verse out of context but I still believe that you know

50:13

God God is going to take whatever we face in our lives good or bad he's going to take it and he's going to turn it around for his good so that his name is glorified and that ultimately people are going to be able to see him not necessarily us but people will be able to see him and then we can we as the ones who may be the recipients of hard times or whatever can see maybe in the end it may not we may not see it immediately but we can see

50:48

God working in our lives and in it and help us to to grow in our spiritual walk amen well we have to go to our midway break right now the midway break is the midway break is the longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

51:08

FM in Lake City Florida every day needs to air their own public service announcements and commercials in order to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City Florida so I ask of you as I do every day to please make the best use of this time during this elongated break by writing down all the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because the more often you patronize our advertisers the more often they are going to be blessed financially obviously and that means the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers and keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air because we depend upon their advertising dollars to exist in addition to the faithful and generous contributions of our listeners so please write down all of the information that you need that is provided by our advertisers and also take this time to write down questions for our guest chaplain

52:08

Collie Foster they do not need to exclusively it be about the movie indivisible they can be just general questions about his being a chaplain they can be general questions about Christians in the military they can be just general questions about the

52:25

Christian life since he is a chaplain and serves in some capacity in a realm similar to that of a pastor we would welcome general questions on the

52:37

Christian life and faith and belief as well so our email address is Chris Aronson at gmail .com

52:43

we may be blessed with the inclusion of Jenny Reese Clark during the second half of the program we're not a hundred percent sure because is at a doctor's office right now unexpectedly nothing serious don't worry but she is going to be hopefully joining us hopefully that that examination is going to be over before the program is over and we can include

53:11

Jenny in our discussion but if you have questions our email address is Chris Aronson at gmail .com

53:17

Chris Aronson at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

53:24

USA only remain anonymous if your questions a personal and private one and God willing we'll be back shortly with our guest chaplain

53:35

Kali Foster and hopefully also Jenny Reese Clark don't go away we'll be back after these messages from our sponsors.

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So make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We just have a couple of announcements for special events that are coming up that we want you to be aware of before we return to our guest,

59:52

Chaplain Collie Foster. First of all, the day after tomorrow, on Wednesday the 7th of November, my friend

01:00:01

David Wood, who is a Christian apologist and well known for his debates with Muslims and atheists, he is going to be debating

01:00:12

Muhammad Hijab on the theme Trinity or Tawhid, Tawhid, I think it's pronounced,

01:00:21

I'm sorry, Trinity or Tawhid. And that is going to be held at the

01:00:26

York College of Performing Arts or the York College Performing Arts Center, I should say, in New York.

01:00:32

The York College Performing Arts Center in New York. That is this

01:00:37

Wednesday, November 7th at 6, I'm sorry, let's see here, it's very tiny, at 6 p .m.

01:00:45

I believe that is the time. And if you have, if you want more details on that, call toll -free at 866 -323 -3336.

01:00:56

That's 866 -323 -3336. Then coming up this

01:01:03

Friday and Saturday, November 9th and the 10th, I will be manning another exhibitors booth for Arne and Trippin's Iron Radio at the

01:01:11

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. It's being held once again at the

01:01:17

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown, Pennsylvania. That's this Friday and Saturday, November 9th and the 10th.

01:01:23

The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson and Carlton Wynn.

01:01:31

If you'd like to register and join me there at the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, go to Alliancenet .org,

01:01:40

Alliancenet .org. Then coming up in January, the

01:01:46

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, more specifically College Park, Georgia, to the

01:01:53

Georgia International Convention Center. I will be once again manning an exhibitors booth there as well and they are expecting between four and five thousand people there, so I would strongly urge you if you have a business, professional practice, parachurch ministry or church that you want to promote in that crowd of between four and five thousand people, register for an exhibitors booth as well in addition to just registering to attend.

01:02:20

I would love to have you registering for an exhibitors booth nearby me, actually, as I will be there manning one for Iron Trip and Zion Radio at the

01:02:28

Georgia International Convention Center. The dates are Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th, and there is a special Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th.

01:02:41

But as far as the English -speaking conference is concerned, the speakers include James White, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Conrad M.

01:02:50

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

01:02:58

Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster.

01:03:06

So if you want to join me there, either just by attending or by manning your own exhibitors booth, go to g3conference .com,

01:03:13

g3conference .com and I hope to see you there. Also, this

01:03:18

January, from the 24th through the 26th, the Deep South Founders Conference is going to be held at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and one of my favorite preachers, in fact, probably my favorite of all preachers on the planet

01:03:36

Earth, alive today, Conrad M. Bayway, the pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and chancellor of the

01:03:44

African Christian University. He is going to be there speaking at the Deep South Founders Conference, along with Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, and Bobby Crenshaw.

01:03:58

The theme is sanctification. If you would like to join me in Mississippi, this is my first trip to Mississippi, I'm looking forward to it.

01:04:05

If you want to join me there, go to deepsouthfounders .com, deepsouthfounders .com

01:04:11

to register. Again, that's going to be held January 24th through the 26th. And one last request, if you love

01:04:21

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And by the way, if you do not have a church home and you are not prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God, please rectify that situation immediately.

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01:06:25

I have lists of biblically sound churches all over the globe, so I hope to help you find one soon if you do not already have one.

01:06:32

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com is the email address you can send in your request for me to help you find a church home.

01:06:39

And that's also the email address where you could send in a question to our guest today, Chaplain Collie Foster, as we examine the movie

01:06:47

Indivisible and we can glean some life lessons from that. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:06:55

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. I'm just curious, have we've been joined yet by Jenny Reese Clark? Why, you sure have.

01:07:02

I don't know for how long. I'm still waiting for a CT scan, but I can join in as much as I can.

01:07:08

Okay, well I'm doing great. I want to remind our listeners that Jenny Reese Clark is the wife of Chaplain Caleb Schumacher, who's in the 1st

01:07:17

Battalion 38th Field Artillery Regiment with the United States Army. She is a blogger, a motivational speaker, and the author of the novel

01:07:24

Field of Influence. She saw the movie lesson, she saw the movie Indivisible, and she urged me to do a program on it.

01:07:32

And why don't I immediately go to a question from our audience, Jenny, for you specifically.

01:07:40

And I'm looking for that now. I had it just in front of me seconds ago.

01:07:47

Okay, here it is. I have to enlarge it because the font on the email is microscopic.

01:07:53

This is Jennifer from Fort Mitchell, Alabama. She says,

01:07:59

Jenny, can you tell me how this movie, Indivisible, depicts being a chaplain's wife?

01:08:06

Would you add any details to help us regular military spouses better understand the unique challenges chaplain couples and wives face?

01:08:18

Oh wow, that's a good question. I actually think the movie did a fantastic job depicting what it is that chaplain couples face on an everyday basis.

01:08:32

You know, it's, I mean, the film did phenomenal, I think. Waking, getting those phone calls in the middle of the night, you know, that my husband needs to wake up and go deliver news that someone has passed, or, you know, he cannot come home because someone needs counseling.

01:08:52

In fact, he's in South Korea right now. Absolutely. It was very interesting.

01:08:59

We actually had this conversation. One of the scenes in the movie was actually hit way too close to home.

01:09:09

If you have seen the movie, there is a scene that goes on. Recently my grandfather passed away, and as you know,

01:09:16

I am actually having this interview right now at a hospital because I'll be having surgery this coming Tuesday on my back, and I've been a little emotional over it.

01:09:24

You know, I'm trying to get in touch with my husband just for some extra prayer and comfort, and I couldn't get in touch with my husband because he is covering for two battalions, and wanting that encouragement from him, and just kind of saying, hey, how come you didn't email me?

01:09:38

Hey, how come I didn't hear from you? Hey, he's like, hey, I'm trying to cover down for two battalions.

01:09:46

It's basically the same scenario, and so I guess the answer, what was it again,

01:09:53

Jennifer's, what was her name? Her name is just like yours, Jennifer. Jennifer's question, to help them better understand that situation, what we go through is basically the same thing as, you know, what soldiers and their, you know, soldiers in regular life go through, except for we have the spiritual perspective, you know, we have the responsibility of being that moral compass, and all eyes are kind of on us as far as like how we respond to a certain situation.

01:10:29

So we are kind of in the light. Colleen, what do you think about that? Do you kind of agree with that?

01:10:36

Yeah, I do. I mean, the thing is, Jenny, I think we, as a chaplain and a chaplain's wife, we live in a fishbowl, and everybody's watching us.

01:10:47

Yes, but we're normal people, and so we too have the same, you know, as everyone else does.

01:10:59

We want our husband's time with us, and we want to be able to have daddy blow out the candles, and we want, matter of fact,

01:11:05

I went and picked up a chaplain's spouse from the hospital when she delivered her third baby, because daddy couldn't be there, and you know, like, we experience the same thing as, you know, everyone else does, but that doesn't mean that just because we are in ministry or part of the

01:11:23

UMT, which is the ministry team, we are shielded from those experiences, or we're immune to, like in the movie, things of PTSD.

01:11:36

I mean, as you can see, the main character in the movie, he saw trauma.

01:11:42

He saw things that were devastating, and it affected him, and he wasn't, you know, all the knowledge he had of the

01:11:49

Bible and all the knowledge he had of God, and in his humanity, it crushed him.

01:11:55

You know, I mean, he doubted. I love this scene where he says, you know,

01:12:01

I trusted God to save those men. He's like, no dude, you trusted God to do what you wanted

01:12:07

Him to do with those men, and you know, it's a common problem that we all come across somewhere in our walk with God.

01:12:16

You know, we, you know, why God, why would you do that to me? You know, we're all self -centered sometimes in our lives, if we're honest with ourselves, and you know, just because we're

01:12:28

Chaplain and Chaplain's spouse doesn't make us, we're not perfect. We're not perfect, and so, you know,

01:12:36

I think sometimes because the Chaplain and Chaplain's spouse is part of the command team, a lot of times it can be lonely over there, because, you know, people expect us to be perfect.

01:12:51

They kind of expect us to have the perfect response, and you know, we don't always have that.

01:12:57

I love, I was reading a book by Joanne Weaver, and it was having a merry heart in the

01:13:04

Martha world, and basically there's a quote in there by Ruth Graham, and someone had asked her the question.

01:13:13

They said, okay, Billy Graham has gone, like, an average of like 10 out of 12 months out of the year, and how do you handle that,

01:13:21

Ruth? And I think that the comment was more meant to be critical for her, you know, and you know, how do you deal with that?

01:13:30

Is that really difficult, you know, because you're supposed to be family -oriented, and how do you justify that? And one of the comments that, or what she responded back, turned around to be one of the biggest things that I have clung to as far as my role, or what

01:13:46

I have used in this whole atmosphere of having a husband that's deployed, whether it be into an active combat role or to an area that is still suffering from a war 50 years ago, like South Korea.

01:13:59

She said in response to that, she said, well, you have to learn to make the most of what comes and the least of what goes.

01:14:06

And I was like, oh my God, that's brilliant. It's so simple, you know, and if we can learn to do that,

01:14:13

I think that, and apply that to like the situation, even with the things of war, you know, it will help us in how we just process those very gross, evil that we face and encounter when we deal with war.

01:14:35

So, sorry, I don't mean to get on the show and talk all the time away.

01:14:41

No, I want, obviously, since we don't even know when you're going to be disappearing from the program, I want to make sure that you have as much input as you possibly can.

01:14:50

In fact, while we still have you here, we have a question from B .B.

01:14:56

in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania for you, who says, will

01:15:03

Jenny please respond to the difficulty that the chaplain's wife in the movie had that may reflect

01:15:13

Jenny's own experience, where she was troubled by her husband's priorities, putting his comrades in arms above the needs and desires of her and her family?

01:15:25

Although we can sympathize with this, and I know that even pastors who are not chaplains in the military have these same kind of dilemmas that they face, isn't it true that a chaplain's wife or a pastor's wife at least has to be prepared to know that this is going to be a part of their normal lives, where the joys they are experiencing or the intimate times they are enjoying may be interrupted at any moment, with a call to duty, where that is the very reason these chaplains and pastors exist, where sometimes in the middle of the night they may be called from their homes and be forced to remain outside of the home for long hours, if not days?

01:16:12

Oh yes, absolutely. I will tell you, my husband and I, when he comes back from being in Korea, we will have been married four years, and out of that four years,

01:16:25

I will have only seen my husband two of those four years. Wow. And it is a great, great sacrifice for our country and our freedom, but I do believe that it is one that is worth it.

01:16:44

I know it is extremely hard, but I know that it has caused us to lean on Christ.

01:16:54

And there have been things that have challenged us greatly in our marriage, and things that have, you know, it's definitely caused,

01:17:12

I'm not going to sit here and act like there hasn't been moments that it hasn't caused an argument, right?

01:17:19

But I haven't said, wait a minute, what about me? I would be lying.

01:17:26

I would be the biggest liar, and Colleen Foster would know it. And I'm sure he's waiting on the other line to go, she's a liar.

01:17:35

He knows me all too well. But I think it is a calling.

01:17:43

I think we're called to it, and I think that if you're not called to it, it will break you. And if you don't keep your eyes on the cross and keep your perspective focused on Christ and remembering what

01:18:02

He did on that cross, you know, nothing about the cross is comfortable. It was all about sacrifice.

01:18:09

And if there's ever a moment where I look at my situation and go, now is this fair?

01:18:18

You know, then I won't see it. You know, I'll miss it. But if I look at my situation and say, you know, in the process of laying down, you know, our life and our sacrifice, are people going to have the opportunity to hear the gospel?

01:18:41

Are people going to have the opportunity to then know who

01:18:46

God is? With my husband being able to go over and shine his light in these dark, dark places, there are very, very few opportunities ever granted for people.

01:19:06

And Colleen can tell you about this more than I would ever be able to tell you about this. And I'm just a spouse, and I admire greatly the chaplain corps, because they have the opportunity to go into these places that the common man will never, ever have the opportunity to witness.

01:19:24

But they can go into the battlefield. They can go into the darkest places.

01:19:34

Coming back for more, these hospitals of wounded men, where hearts are absolutely, completely raw, they're broken open, ready to just receive the gospel.

01:19:46

Even in basic training, those kids leave home, they're scared to death. They just left their mom and dad.

01:19:52

They're like, oh, I don't want to be here. I don't know what to do. What did I sign up for? Man, they are so ready to hear about a daddy in heaven that will love them unconditionally, even though their drill sergeant can't stand them.

01:20:05

And they receive the gospel, and they get saved, and they get baptized, and they begin their new lives with Jesus Christ.

01:20:11

I mean, they have the neatest job. Being a chaplain is so cool. And so, yes, sometimes

01:20:18

I have to give up my husband in the middle of the night. Sometimes I have to give him up for a year at a time.

01:20:28

Sometimes I have to give him up, put him to go away to a ranger school and fail the ranger school, and he spent a lot of money, and he still failed.

01:20:36

But you know what? Do you know how many people he has had the opportunity to baptize and leave

01:20:46

Jesus Christ? It makes it all worth it. It makes it all worth it. And just like Ruth Graham said, you learn to make the most of what comes and the least of what goes.

01:20:58

And just like that, my little pager just buzzed, and I have to go get a CT scan.

01:21:04

Okay. Well, I really appreciate you joining us while you could, Jenny. And if you can call back after that, during the last portion of our show, feel free to.

01:21:13

And we will be praying for you and your health there. And thank you very much for joining us.

01:21:19

Thank you. Sorry.

01:21:49

Bye, Colin. We're going to our final break right now. And once again, if anybody would like to join us with a question for Chaplain Collie Foster, and perhaps even

01:22:00

Jennifer Reese Clark, who might be able to join us again while we're still on the air.

01:22:06

I don't know that because she still is in the hospital getting tests. But if you have a question for either or both of them, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:22:17

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:22:27

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

01:22:34

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia. That's not the best recipe for popularity.

01:23:07

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01:24:00

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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01:36:12

We are now back with our final segment. Today with Chaplain Collie Foster, we are discussing the movie

01:36:19

Indivisible and what lessons can be learned from this movie. If you have questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:36:29

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who has a question.

01:36:36

I want to know what Chaplain Collie Foster has to say in regard to an earlier question.

01:36:42

It must be an absolutely difficult task to be able to balance being there for your wife and children and at the same time meeting the needs that you have been called to meet as a chaplain, dealing with soldiers, etc.,

01:36:59

just as pastors do, but it's even more complicated and perhaps even more difficult as a chaplain.

01:37:07

How do you do that without denying the attention that wife and children need?

01:37:17

Before I answer that, I wanted to add one little comment to the last question that Ginny addressed.

01:37:26

I think this will probably kind of help answer this question as well.

01:37:32

I'm a firm believer that when God calls a man into the ministry, he also calls the wife and he has to, in many cases, work in the wife's life first, and that's the way it was in my wife and my relationship.

01:37:54

We were married for about 12 to 13 years when I came onto active duty.

01:38:01

Ginny had said that they'd been married for four years, but Caleb had come into the military before they got married.

01:38:12

And God actually began to work in my wife's life before he did mine, I think preparing her for the call of my life, because she was actually,

01:38:23

I mean, I was looking at making a change in the direction

01:38:28

I was going, and one day she came home from work where I know that God had been working with her, and her comment to me was, why aren't you an

01:38:37

Army chaplain? And God had been working with her and had been, you know,

01:38:42

I think dealing with her heart about it before he ever dealt with my heart about the call into the military chaplaincy.

01:38:53

So that goes to, kind of leads into the question that was brought for me, is

01:38:59

I think, you know, God works the lives of both individuals, the wife and the husband, and I think that, you know, and in our case, mine and my wife's relationship,

01:39:14

God was working with her first, preparing her heart to be able to accept the demands that would be placed on my life, you know, whether it be deployment, whether it be being called at 2 o 'clock in the morning to, you know, to a crisis situation, whatever it might be.

01:39:39

I've just been very blessed as a chaplain in the Army, and now as a chaplain in the corporate world, to have a wife who is very dedicated to God, who has supported me 100%, and who has,

01:39:56

I think, God has, you know, and the reason for that is that God dealt with her first in preparing her heart to be able to take on the demands, because it is a great demand, and not just for chaplains and their spouses, but for all military personnel and their families.

01:40:20

It's a big demand that's placed on them. So to add to the question that was raised for me, you take advantage of every opportunity that you have to spend time together, to whether it's with your worshiping together, whether you're being entertained or, you know, involved in recreation together, whatever it might be, you just take every opportunity to spend the time together.

01:40:51

I'm not sure if that quite answered the listener's question, but I hope so.

01:40:59

And I'm assuming that, and I think Jenny has joined us again, right? I thought that I heard.

01:41:05

Yes, I have. Oh, great. One of the things I wanted to say is that, obviously, both with a chaplain and with a pastor,

01:41:18

I'm assuming you would agree that even though those individuals who have unique callings in life have to be prepared to race to the aid of people who are in genuine need, obviously,

01:41:36

I have heard horror stories from pastors who think that there are all kinds of trivial reasons that people should justifiably wake up their pastor in the middle of the night and have them race to their homes when it can sometimes reach the level of nonsensical.

01:41:56

And actually, you're actually doing something sinful because you're robbing that pastor not only of sleep but of time with his family.

01:42:03

But, having said that, although a pastor needs to be able to respond to a call at a moment's notice on occasion, especially if he does not have enough deacons or fellow elders to help him in those emergency situations, a pastor really has to, and a chaplain,

01:42:22

I'm assuming you would agree, has to really balance what is truly important.

01:42:29

Like, for instance, Jenny, I'm assuming that you would not want your husband

01:42:34

Caleb as a chaplain to be abandoning you and your children in the middle of the night or whenever it is, it might be in the middle of an important family gathering or something, just because one of the soldiers under his shepherding is depressed or something like that.

01:42:52

Of course, barring threats of suicide or something. You can't just leave your family just because somebody wants you to minister that to them.

01:43:02

Am I right? Well, yes. There is ways to do things.

01:43:09

There's meeting in the office, of course, 0800 for counseling. If someone is, of course, not a threat to themselves or others.

01:43:20

I think one of the big things is it's very, very easy in the military to neglect your own

01:43:27

Sabbath time. Just because you are constantly on the go, the

01:43:35

Army keeps rolling along. It's one of their slogans. As part of the chaplain corps in UMT, you are nurturing the living, caring for the wounded, and honoring the dead.

01:43:50

That's what you do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Finding time for your family is hard, but finding time to really, really rest in the shadow of the

01:44:03

Almighty and honor the Sabbath can be very challenging.

01:44:09

I don't know. Colleen, do you agree with that? Yes, I do. I was going to add,

01:44:16

I had a chaplain friend of mine years ago. I was actually working at the

01:44:24

Army Hospital in Fort Gordon, Georgia. A hospital chaplain, you respond to so many different crisis situations where people have lost their health.

01:44:37

It may lose their life to an illness or whatever.

01:44:45

He told me one time, and I'll try to share the story as briefly and without giving a whole lot away.

01:44:53

I had a call one night about 10 or 11 o 'clock at night that this patient wanted to see the chaplain.

01:45:02

So I was asking, you know, some questions about it. You know, what's it about? Well, the nursing staff really couldn't tell me other than the person was lonely.

01:45:12

And so this chaplain taught me to ask a few questions. One, are they still going to be alive the next day?

01:45:22

Is their mental status going to change between 11 o 'clock at night and 730 in the morning?

01:45:28

If those things are not going to happen, that is, they're not going to pass or they're not going to lose their ability to be cognitive and be able to communicate, he told me, he said, 730 in the morning they can see you.

01:45:46

That way it protects your family from those just because somebody's lonesome.

01:45:54

And that goes for patients, soldiers, whatever it might be. We're always, and I struggled with that in my own life because I'm a caring person and I want to reach out and help everyone.

01:46:10

But he taught me such a great lesson that I've got to protect my family and the time that we have together, and that was one way that he taught me to do it was just to how serious is the situation and can it wait until tomorrow.

01:46:27

Right. And it's a struggle, and I'm just saying, you know, we don't have our 20 years in yet and we haven't made it to colleague foster level yet.

01:46:37

So we still struggle with that, you know, where we are in our military lives because I'm just like my husband, too.

01:46:46

And we're just like colleagues. We're obviously, we're chaplains, chaplains spouse. We both have a heart for ministry.

01:46:52

And so when we hear someone in need, desperate, hey, and they reach out and then they have like their friends and everybody who works with them reach out and they're like, okay, we've got to go do this.

01:47:05

You know, you call the wife, I'll call the husband, that type of thing. And sometimes we'll tag team and, you know, that's wonderful.

01:47:15

But then, you know, date night's date night. You know, you've got to nurture your own relationship or, you know, then it grows unhealthy, and that's definitely not

01:47:24

God honoring. And if you're not healthy, obviously you can't go and then help anybody else.

01:47:31

So I agree with that. That's right. I agree with you 100%. One of the things that I was pleased about in the film

01:47:39

Indivisible was there seemed to be the declaration of the truth that once someone departs from this earth, it is on the precise moment that God has decreed it to occur.

01:47:56

Again, I happen to be a Calvinist, and when I hear the truths that are very often vacant from the pulpits and TV sets and radio stations across the world that are vacant of sometimes truths that are truly biblical,

01:48:16

I was very pleased to hear that in the movie. And I'm assuming that when you minister to people who have lost loved ones in battle, who are involved in the military, there must be a great dilemma there.

01:48:35

On the one hand, we know that God is in control, and we know that the judge of all the earth will do what is right.

01:48:42

But at the same time, I'm assuming you would both agree that we have to be very careful about getting entrapped in sentimentality where a false gospel is declared in order to comfort people.

01:48:54

There are people out there in the media who would say that anybody whose life is taken on the battlefield because of the fact that that person is an

01:49:04

American hero, that that person will be in heaven. And of course, we even heard that with all the victims who perished at 9 -11.

01:49:13

All of those people we have heard are in heaven by some people giving an unbiblical message of comfort.

01:49:20

How do you balance those things when you're approaching people at the worst moments of their life, where you want to be truthful?

01:49:25

And obviously, if a person isn't saved, you don't know that with certainty. You don't make declarations about people in the afterlife when you don't know exactly what was in their heart before they left this earth and entered into eternity, of course.

01:49:40

But how do you balance the notion of being truthful, biblical, faithful to what

01:49:45

God has taught, and giving comfort to the families of those who have perished in the military?

01:49:51

And we'll start with you, Chaplain Foster, and then, Jenny, anything else that you care to add?

01:49:58

I knew you would ask me first. He better ask you first.

01:50:05

You're the chaplain. I know, I know, and that is one of the hardest things.

01:50:11

Hey, Chris Harmsen is a tough interviewer. He is going to ask a tough question.

01:50:18

That's what he's known for. Right. You know, that's a difficult question to really answer, because,

01:50:29

I mean, you want to be sensitive to the loss that a person has had, but at the same time, you've got to be true to the

01:50:42

Gospel. And oftentimes, I will, you know, if I am, if at all possible,

01:50:49

I will try my best to try to get a feel for a person's faith background there.

01:51:00

Were they a Christian? Because many times families can kind of relate to that, and then they can let you know.

01:51:11

You know, I guess at that particular moment, and maybe it's not the best, but I've always tried to work with the family in being sensitive to their grief at the moment, and then if the opportunity arises, then

01:51:35

I can bring about the truth that, you know, if your loved one knew Christ, they are in Heaven with Him right now.

01:51:43

And if they did not know Christ, then, you know,

01:51:49

I have to be honest with them, that they are not spending eternity in Heaven. It's just,

01:51:56

I mean, that's one of the hardest things that I have to do as a chaplain, and that I've ever had to do even when

01:52:04

I pastor churches, is to balance those two things. So with that,

01:52:10

I'm going to pass it to Jenny and see what she has to say. Well, I mean, I'm assuming, Jenny, as a pastor,

01:52:16

I mean, as a chaplain's wife, that there are occasions when you have to minister to the wives and families of military, especially during sad times such as the loss of a loved one.

01:52:29

Mm -hmm. Well, and I am a truth -sayer and always have been, and never been one to lie to people or sugarcoat things, but there is a sensitivity during, you know, times when people are grieving, and I think that there is a time and a place for everything under the sun, according to Ecclesiastes.

01:53:03

And I think Colleen is right. When I have listened to my husband minister to those who have experienced loved ones who have passed, he is very good about learning, because a lot of times, he'll be called in for veterans who have passed, memorials that, of course, he's never met in person before.

01:53:33

He'll be called out to, you know, the national cemeteries to meet families that he has never known, to get to do a service, a military honor for people he's never known before, and having to learn what their religious preferences and beliefs are, and, you know, praying that, you know, there is going to be some

01:53:57

Jesus there. And then, you know, sometimes you'll hear, of course, you know, things that will allow you to, you know, witness to the family, and then, of course, things that confirm that there is faith there.

01:54:15

And then, you know, then there's times that you're like, okay, how do you go about this very gently?

01:54:25

I do not believe in giving false hope. I think that the world has done that for people.

01:54:33

I believe that that's what happened to me during my recovery. That's what drugs did. It gave me false hope.

01:54:38

This is going to make you feel better. In fact, people listening might not be aware that Jenny is a woman who formerly was a drug addict and drug dealer, and her testimony can be heard archived at irontreppanzineradio .com

01:54:52

if you type her name in the search engine. But that's what she was referring to in regard to recovery. Oh, yeah, probably just they were like, what?

01:55:04

They were probably like, what did she say? Prior to her salvation. I don't know if I can put that in there. Prior to her salvation, she was.

01:55:11

Sorry. Hold on, everybody. I have a very colorful history speaking here.

01:55:17

And when we talk about PTSD and all the war stuff, you're talking about a special chaplain like you.

01:55:23

I'm someone who actually knows what it's like to be in a building that has blown up, and I'm actually a chaplain's spouse who has been in a vehicle that has caught fire from the inside, and I'm actually one of those chaplain's spouses who's been ejected from a car going 78 miles an hour and broken the cuckoos of bones and back and pelvis.

01:55:43

So I know what trauma is, and I know what being in the car with bullets flying by feels like.

01:55:49

So I kind of understand the PTSD aspect of things like the chaplain experienced in the movie, more so than the average chaplain's spouse.

01:55:58

But I also understand the chaplain's spouse because my husband's a chaplain, and I am a woman, and I want my husband home.

01:56:06

So that's where this movie kind of hits home, and I kind of have an interesting perspective on that.

01:56:11

But back to what we were talking about is I don't believe in administering false hope to people.

01:56:17

I think that that is what Satan is an expert at, and we've got a lot of that out there.

01:56:24

But when you come, I think that we do have to be sensitive to people, especially during times of grief and things like that.

01:56:31

A very wise pastor told me that funerals are far more intended to be targeting those among us that are still alive.

01:56:46

There's no reason for a minister at a funeral service or a burial service to be an expert on the person who has passed, and they don't need to unnecessarily provide information about the afterlife of that individual because we are not omniscient, and we don't know what may have happened in the final moments of that person's life when it comes to faith.

01:57:12

I mean, there are rare occasions when people are with someone who is cursing God to the very last breath.

01:57:18

That's a rare thing. But we shouldn't jump to some conclusion that we can know with certainty that somebody left this earth without faith.

01:57:26

And therefore, those that are gathered at a funeral service, or as they're often called, wakes, or burial services, the people that are listening, they're the ones that still have life and breath and a beating heart who need to know the gospel before they depart from this earth, and their eternity is still ahead of them.

01:57:54

So they are the primary audience. Of course, God is first and foremost the primary audience, but on this earth, the primary audience would be the people that are gathered there alive.

01:58:06

And if you could, I just want to make sure our listeners have all of your contact information.

01:58:13

First of all, I know that Corporate Chaplains of America's website is chaplain .org.

01:58:19

Chaplain .org. Do you have any other contact information that you care to share, Chaplain Colley Foster?

01:58:27

You know, the bad thing is I do not have information in front of me, but if anyone is interested in learning more, they can go to the website.

01:58:36

And on the website, there should be contact information if they wanted to speak to someone personally about the organization.

01:58:46

The phone number should be on the website. And anybody wanting to contact Jenny Rees -Clark, you can go to her website, which is very easy to remember, jennyreesclark .com.

01:58:56

Jenny Rees, and that's spelled R -E -E -S -E, Clark, with no E at the end, it's just C -L -A -R -K .com.

01:59:04

Jennyreesclark .com. I want to thank both of you for being on the program. If you want to see the

01:59:09

Indivisible movie and want to find out where a theater near you is playing it, go to IndivisibleMovie .com.

01:59:20

IndivisibleMovie .com. I want to thank both of you for being on the program. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

01:59:27

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.