February 9, 2016 Show with Robert F. Davis on “Critical Issues Killing Christian Schools” and Todd Friel on “Judge Not: How a Lack of Discernment Let to Drunken Pastors, Peanut Butter Armpits, & the Fall of a Nation”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the

planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnsen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this ninth day of

February 2016 and today we have for the very first time ever on

Iron Sharpens Iron somebody that I've wanted to interview for quite some time and the Lord finally opened up the door.

His name is Robert F. Davis and he is a consultant for educational and non -profit

institutions.

Today we're going to be discussing critical issues killing Christian schools.

I would pick up the phone if I were you and call your family, friends and loved ones especially if they are involved

in the Christian school movement, perhaps they're teachers, headmasters, perhaps they're

trying to pick the the right Christian school for their children.

But if Christian schools and Christian education is important to your friends, family and loved ones have them tune in

to Iron Sharpens Iron which can be heard globally live at ironsharpensironradio

.com and Robert F. Davis has 40 years of experience providing

counsel for educational and not -for -profit institutions.

This consulting has been in the areas of development planned and major giving and marketing.

Professionally he has served as vice president for advancement at Bryan College in Tennessee,

consulting vice president for advancement and alumni affairs at Liberty University in Lynchburg Virginia,

vice president of marketing for Green Tree Industries in New Jersey, vice president of marketing for

Nelson Reed and more in New Jersey, director of development at Eastern Christian School in New Jersey,

director of development at Westminster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania, professor at three colleges

including Nyack in New York, the Northeastern Bible College in Bloomfield New

Jersey and master at three preparatory schools, Stony Brook

New York, the Stony Brook School, Hawthorne Christian Academy in Hawthorne New Jersey

and Eastern Christian School in the New York Metroplex.

He has also served as a visiting lecturer at Forum University where one of my most frequently

interviewed guests was formerly a professor of philosophy, David Wood who many of you may

recognize as an expert on Islam.

Mr. Davis has been honored in who's who among America's teachers and who's who in

executives and professionals.

Mr. Davis has been married to his wife Patricia for 49 years and has two grown children and six

grandchildren.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Robert F. Davis.

Thank you Chris.

One of the things that has always puzzled me is how a very nice, wonderful, charming,

intelligent Christian man such as yourself ever spawned such a horrible human being like your son Rob.

Kind words, yeah.

I'm just kidding you.

I'm hoping Rob is listening right now.

I'm sure he'll get a laugh.

Yeah, Rob was, for our listeners who don't know, was my sales manager at

WMCA radio for a number of years and thankfully we still have a friendship that we've maintained all these years and

in fact we just had a dialogue the day before yesterday.

So I'm honored to finally interview his dad and this is a very, I

think, vital issue that we need to discuss.

Critical issues killing Christian schools.

First of all, a lot of our listeners may be wondering, really?

Christian schools are being killed?

What's happening?

Why don't you set the background for.

This?

Actually

it's

not a,

essentially

it even goes back

before that.

The first issue that I cite

is school board and

I'm always amazed that when they recommend a new board member

that there's no answer to my question when I say what's the function this person will serve

and everybody simply looks blankly and wonders what I mean and I have to qualify

that and say, well do you want, you know, 10 lawyers?

Do you want 10 accountants?

Do you want all insurance executives for planned estate giving?

Do you have all educators on the board or do you want someone that serves a specific function

that can carry the school forward?

This way you need balance.

You need to have all bases covered so that when issues come up the board

can solve them and there are only really three things that a board does at a school.

They hire and fire the head administrator.

They essentially establish policy and thirdly they make sure that

there's sufficient money there to run the school and that's it.

And once they get that established and understand it they can set a schedule for meetings which usually is

three to four meetings a year and what happens in these schools is that the boards meet every month.

Well, it doesn't take but one or two months to run out of things to talk about and then they begin

meddling and they begin to do what school on campus and they shouldn't be involved

in it.

Their job is and they'd have the right people to do it.

By the way, I want to announce our.

Email address if anybody listening would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And also just to let you know if you don't know already from the publicity that we have posted on the internet,

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio is going to be our second guest today at the top of the

hour at five o 'clock and Todd Friel is going to be discussing his new book Judge Not

and I'm sure you will find that to be a fascinating discussion as he discusses

how the church at large has really been duped and

has allowed themselves to be seduced and duped and

actually robbed financially from false teachers especially in the media

and I'm sure that you will find this be a fascinating discussion.

And then in the last half hour of the program we have Anthony Eugenio the founder and

director of New York Apologetics and we're going to be talking about what kinds

of upcoming events he has in store for us including debates and conferences and

things like that but as I said our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com and please include at least your first name your

city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and we look forward to hearing from you.

Some people might think that all Christian education is basically the same.

They may think that it's just what you would have available at

a public school curriculum with the exception that there may be a

more conservative ideology to the school and a obvious

attempt at being Christ -centered but there's more involved in the differences isn't there?

Oh yeah absolutely is exactly right.

Many.

People think that a school is Christian simply because it has the all Christians as faculty

members.

From a

philosophical

standpoint

some years ago I

wanted to

be a

part

of mentoring them

for teaching at your school and what he meant by that was that many of the

faculty members that come to Christian schools are not educated at Christian colleges themselves.

They'll be coming out of Penn State they'll be coming out of Rutgers or State University of New York or any

other secular institution and they will not have been presented coursework even in their major

that resembles anything that comes from a a contextually Christian foundation

and so they would be presenting their course simply as they learned it at their college.

And Dr. Calvin Beisner in a recent

conversation we had in the last two weeks was saying basically many of the college professors for instance

that come out of with PhDs will have to come from a

naturalist position and they'll come into the Christian institution whether it be

secondary school or college and they'll be teaching their course from that naturalist point of view and they will not

have a Christian point of view necessarily.

What you have to do is go to the very foundations and design a biblical basis for your course and

allow your teaching to be incarnational so that actually your faith lives through the course you

teach.

And a course actually becomes a solid Christian foundation that also

has its built -in apologetic so that students are prepared not only to understand from a Christian

standpoint but be able to defend as well.

Now I've been hearing a lot about as of the last

few years a lot about classical Christian education as opposed to

other various types.

If you could give us a background of classical Christian Christian education is that a

philosophy of education that you prefer and.

How does it contrast and compare with other forms.

Well I haven't been that involved

ago.

I spoke at a conference on classical education in college at Lookout Mountain

Georgia and

primarily the classical Christian schools.

And they're fine.

And there are many wonderful ones around the country.

Certainly less than there are but they go

back to the early forms of education and teaching rhetoric and the likes and it's very good.

And it certainly provides a solid foundation.

And it does precisely that

established within.

Yeah I know that

one of the the

mottos at

least of one.

Classical Christian school I'm familiar with is

teaching children how to think not just what to know.

You think that that's an important philosophy of education.

Yeah absolutely.

And I believe that.

That element has to be.

For a good

friend of mine who's a wonderful Christian education is a D

Bruce

Lockerbie

years ago myself make that book up

in thinking and acting like a Christian.

We do have a listener in Merrick New York Steve who is a

headmaster of a Christian school.

In fact I might as well plug his school Grace Christian Academy in Merrick Long Island New York.

And Steve asks.

And it is quite lengthy but I think it's worth reading the whole combination of question and

comment here along the vein of familiarity breeds contempt.

What are some of the things that the Christian school can do to keep from becoming a burnt over district.

So to speak what I observe regularly are kids who come out of solid Christian homes

and have gone to Christian schools all their lives and are indifferent to the gospel even though

they can articulate it clearer than most.

What I am most concerned about culturally is that when it comes to considering schooling

the Christian community seems to be more influenced by pragmatism.

Does the school have a good computer or sports program than it does a biblical worldview.

I believe that if the Christian community fostered biblical thinking when it comes to education the Christian schools would

thrive.

Tuitions would come down quality teachers would be able to live on their on our salaries.

And a biblical approach to the academic disciplines would be more widely practiced among Christians.

What are some of the ways we can influence our Christian community to develop and maintain godly thinking and

decision making when it comes to schooling.

Yeah that's right.

In many cases.

Excuse me.

Well if you want to address the first issue it's how do you keep from becoming a burnt over district when it

comes to Christian education.

Well a couple of things.

First of all I.

Believe in

my tenure for this

what job

can you

would.

And and so

they settle into something that gets stale.

I've been headmaster of Delaware County Christian School in Newtown Square Pennsylvania

said to me that he had a process of hiring there where he would get a new faculty member that they

thought from every side from an interview would be a good faculty member but no one would get a

permanent contract.

They didn't offer tenure but no one would get a permanent contract which would mean that they would get a contract.

For unless they had gone through a three -year mentoring program

during that time they would meet with a another faculty mentor.

They would write a paper on their course and how it was integrated with Christian faith.

They would do several series of readings of recent philosophy and

it was at the end of the three years where they'd evaluate whether to move them along and he

said they almost never had to move somebody along.

The candidate did it himself.

He realized in the course of the three years under which he was being tutored that

hit this was not for him need to have some kind of a program I think that

will assure you of having people that are capable of it.

I have three questions I like to ask in an interview and and then a negative answer to

any of them would be reason to terminate the interview.

But the first question is do you have the gift of teaching.

And if a person says I don't know or I don't I mean what's the purpose of going further if they don't

have the gift of teaching if they they answer yes well then we move on to the next point has God called you to

teach again.

If a person says gee I'm not sure or no he didn't but I'd like to uh that that

would raise significant questions of whether this person would be successful or not.

And then the third question is what uh examples can you give me to substantiate the fact that

you have the gift of teaching and that you were called by God to teach this way you get a better

understanding of it.

And whether they're they're the kind of candidate you do

the job their teaching would become stale.

And I think the headmaster is correct in that some of these schools do become stale

because they don't have people at

Cairn

University.

And these are just

new ways to present and it's not that their classrooms are so avant -garde that

attract people but the education is just vital and these are profound

profoundly committed Christian professors that are wonderful and I

suggest that and uh

well thank you Stephen for that.

Very insightful question and comment as well.

Uh what do you think about those who think

or those who criticize Christian education as importing too much

of the secular mindset into the philosophy of education.

Uh with just a veneer of Christianity being attached to it.

I mean do you think that that is the dominant situation out there in.

Christian education or well I think it's I I wrote an article several weeks ago

five things.

The first thing was a series of small the culture and it's taking

the easy route of attracting families rather than the harder route of stressing you know the

education and academic rigor.

You know I wish I had a dollar for every uh Christian school ad or Christian school brochure that I saw

that said that where excellence is practiced and and it

it just is not uh happening uh and because they're they're making certain

capitulations so that the school is uh is easier for students

people because they may be successful or they know that they uh they are indeed

capitulating to culture by making certain things attractive that aren't necessary and

uh so yeah that's a that's the primary reason I think for uh.

For the failures and uh if you could uh say a little bit more about mission

and philosophy and uh and the gimmicks that are used.

You actually uh just mentioned something about uh sloganry that that the school is

not living up to but if you could uh discuss that a little bit.

Sure I

must

answer

are we doing

it.

What they

ran for a

pager

to.

You don't

have

a mission

statement.

A fast food restaurant and often behind the register you see to a

bank and you'll see on the desk of of a person that you're uh meeting with to

our mission.

I mean that is the very first

very first item that someone sees when they look at.

The brochure is I made a practice when I was vice president of advancement and

also director of development that every desk in the office in fact every desk as I could

get it throughout the institution had a little uh tent on their desk and on each side of it

had the mission were reminded constantly every board of

prayer the opening prayer.

They should also fit us.

So what what do you

flesh out in the philosophy if you don't know what a mission is.

And I think the first thing that parents should look at are those two documents the mission

statement.

Now what kind of

gimmickry do you uh see prevalent.

Amongst christian schools.

Uh a lot of what you're saying could probably even dovetail into

just churches in general.

As far as gimmickry uh.

But if you could uh comment on that well I.

Think that first the

secular

preparatory school and find

that the

tuition

is

twenty

thousand

dollars a year and and christian schools wouldn't think of doing that and so they end up charging

less than ten thousand.

And they'd be afraid to charge more because they're afraid people won't come.

Uh.

Well why not.

I mean are we saying that.

Then.

We're we're clientele when you go to these schools

and see who's coming there so you have an unrealistic tuition and and people perceive that.

And that

happens when you have a and it

doesn't

cover

tuition assistance so you have to

come in tuition.

You therefore

planning

on getting uh people coming back into the workforce after they've been rearing the family.

And so you get maybe

the revolving door and you have teachers coming.

They stay here.

They stay two years and they get a better job and they move on.

You're constantly looking for.

You just have to watch to get different ways

of portraying

unrealistic

and suggest

that they operate on a high level of integrity.

I mean you know you can't have a little integrity.

You either have integrity.

Yeah.

I remember uh traveling somewhere and passing.

By a christian school and their large sign had a picture of a clown on it.

I remember thinking to myself why on earth do they think that.

That is a good way to advertise their headmaster.

I don't know in fact uh some some churches I will not mention

uh have uh put on their website.

They think it's going to be make them attractive to perhaps the uh the

lost or something.

But they will have their pastors on their website dressed up in all kinds of idiotic costumes and they're all

laughing and having a great time.

Which to me I don't know how you could be preaching the and give yourself an appearance of that.

No that's true.

But we have to go to a break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for rob davis regarding christian education

our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please include at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you outside of the USA.

And uh if if this is about a personal or private matter that for some reason you don't want to

identify yourself.

You may feel free to be anonymous.

Uh that's chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with rob davis on.

Christian education.

I'm james white of alpha omega ministries.

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Welcome back.

This is chris.

Arnzen if you just tuned us in today our first guest is robert f

davis and we are talking about christian education specifically we're talking about critical

critical issues killing christian schools and robert f davis is a consultant for

educational and non -for -profit not -for -profit institutions and our email address if

you'd like to join us on the air is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We do have johnny in queens new york who says i am somewhat

concerned about one of the approaches of classical christian

education in that they involve secular literature some of it involving

pagan ideology such as the the greek gods and

goddesses etc.

Is this appropriate to uh introduce this sort of curriculum

into the christian education of our children.

Yeah well i

paired their course.

The fact of

the matter is is that

students will be able to see as you present the

different.

I would advocate that a

science program teach all forms and concepts that

you're not advocating.

Uh.

Evolution going

to happen.

Christian colleges you can't be sure.

And that is when they go to college they're going to find conflict and if they don't have a well grounding

themselves it's going to be

overcome by them and not be able to respond to

them.

And

therefore

you're

presenting perhaps

uh

that

was

appropriate.

Well

you've

already

uh.

Included somewhat in what you just said a definition of apologetics but some of our listeners

may be just hearing the word apologies screaming out at them and they are looking at a modern usage of that

like i'm sorry for doing this or that uh but that is not what apologetics is about if you.

Could just define that a little

bit more clearly i would

define it as simply understanding uh if i.

But i believe that's what you need to do.

You need to understand why you believe what you believe.

I can remember being uh when i was being reared uh and asking why do we do this

why do we do that why do we think that way.

And being told he's a

youngster and it certainly didn't prepare me for anything i was going to if there was

absolutely no understanding of it.

You just light of the the question

that before this

education have

some

of them all you have to be

aware what's out there.

Yeah the the kids will

be that that

some of the virtuality.

You know as i was growing up in my neighborhood whether my neighbor was catholic

jew or protestant whatever you want to say the values and virtues

were virtually the same.

A secularism of society has been stealing from christianity and stealing

from christian education.

And that's also diluting it because the schools are reflecting some of what's happening in culture.

You just have to be careful of those kind of things and that we don't have the

what i would call potential compromise

getting government involved by taking money from government.

The camel under the by this time you

have to

make city

college in western pennsylvania.

Yeah.

And

grove city

was the the

seminal

carry on.

Yeah a number of years ago on the old iron sharpens iron i had the privilege of interviewing at least

twice uh t david gordon who at least at the time was on the faculty at grove city college.

I don't know if he still is but he wrote two excellent books why johnny can't preach and why.

Johnny can't sing

hymns.

Yeah.

Two

excellent

books.

What

do you mean by incarnational education.

Well it's living it out.

You know.

Romance timing at

the ground.

You add on.

I have a book on my bookshelves right now.

In fact i'm touching it right now that i was given to by the secretary of education for the archdiocese in new

york.

It was dr catherine hickey was her name.

And it was uh the application of values.

That's an add -on.

It's tacked on.

They teach the course and they say.

And furthermore here's the catholic position on this.

And we can't have it as being an add -on or something that we tack on after the fact.

It's got to grow right out of the course.

Uh it's got to be so much a part of it that it is incarnational.

It's not something that we have to think how to do it it's something that that we teach.

Because i know there's a each year in new york

city.

This year dr carl zylstra who's

20 years.

We've had

the

annual

colloquy

and

create

about 18 into

that.

We

often

learning.

Uh we.

Do have an anonymous listener in suffolk county long island new york who says who

asks i should say uh should sex education have any place in a christian school

or should that be entirely left.

Up to

the parents at home.

Yeah now that should be

understood and

so

that

should be very clear.

And i think that's part of what's happening now is when i mentioned before one of the things killing

christianity christian education is the fact that we have

this in effect kind of things have

become community and

the likes if they are taught it used

to be said in

the interesting

thing i've heard so many christian schools say that that christian education sits on a stool with three legs

the church the home centrally that's

no dancing in the

dark.

And it said that those three those

three

things

were

no way of

a young

man was

why young people go into a depression when

some they think they know them right they live with them and they're influenced by them.

And so therefore the home the school and the church are having less and less influence and contemporary

media is having more and more a serious problem.

And so with sexuality the home is not really teaching it and supporting it in every way that they

possibly can with the.

Support of yeah

since you mentioned apologetics before and because the secular media

is saturated with sexuality i'm assuming that in the older grades

there's got to be some kind of an apologetic to trained children to respond to that and

other things.

And it's also i'm assuming why you believe that

secular culture as far as literature goes and other things like that should

have some place even secular science and evolution even if you're teaching children how to

refute it.

Because if we're raising or if our desire is to raise up the leaders of tomorrow

they have to have an effective way of combating the false

philosophies and theologies and teachings of the world.

Otherwise they're just going to be out there looking like and sounding like idiots and nobody's gonna have any interest in

listening to what they have to say.

So i guess there's always that that uh tightrope walk that you have to walk on to not go

too far to the right or too far to.

The

left

on.

I'm

assuming

yeah.

Well let

me

put

out.

A.

We do

have

a

listener

in

lindenhurst

long

island.

Cj who asks.

I understand from my experience that there are two different approaches

to christian education.

One would be considered more of a missionary approach where any child is

permitted to enroll as long as the parents understand that there is a

christian theology and philosophy being taught.

The other approach would insist that at least one and sometimes both

parents.

Are christian.

Which model

do

you

prefer.

Yeah well

that's exactly.

Uh.

Chinchapel

like an

everyday

situation took place and there were significant conversions

taking place on campus between dialogue

of students.

That's the the other side and they're

both good.

I wouldn't

i i

personally would prefer one that

that didn't have the requirement i don't have any

strong feelings.

I mean i i taught

it and there they.

And so i've taught in both environments

significantly different.

One of the parents has to

be a

christian.

I mean

where i was at these

schools where one of the parents had to be a

christian the

the youngster was.

Not necessarily i

really like you to unburden.

Your heart right now and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds when they leave the

program today.

Oh wow pressure on me here.

Just summarize what anything.

Significant period.

I would like them to to understand that that christian education is is something

very serious it's not to be taken lightly.

It is probably something that is at the

forefront

front of

the

the i've heard

uh some uh

christian apologists

and uh

bloggers

and

speakers.

And authors uh say that christians should stop whining and complaining about

the horrible things that are occurring in the public school system.

They should be yanking their children out of it and and uh either homeschooling them or bringing them to christian schools

enrolling them in christian.

Schools what

are your

thoughts on

that.

Well i

you

know

i

wouldn't harangue

that for him.

He was in california he says.

Do we feed the horse or send our kids to christian schools.

And and on the east coast here at our vacation do we send the kids to

christian school.

We have to sacrifice we have to establish pride to

take advantage of what we.

Well i want to thank you so much for being my.

Guest today rob and i look forward to having you back on the program.

And do you have any contact information that you care to share publicly with our listeners.

Sure if they'd like to get in touch.

With me they could contact me by.

Oh the pleasure

has been all

mine and please uh

send my regards.

To your son rob and your daughter -in -law julie i certainly will.

Well thank you so much.

And uh coming up next uh ladies and gentlemen we have todd friel of wretched tv and wretched radio

and he's going to be discussing his new book.

Judge not so don't go away we're going to be.

Right back after these messages

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

And uh for some reason our guest uh todd friel was getting a busy signal when he was trying to call into the studio

so we're hoping that this will be resolved very quickly because we don't know

why he has a busy signal.

Um but anyway uh while we were waiting for todd i'd like to extend to

you some prayer requests that i have first of all my brother andy is

in the hospital right now.

He just recently suffered from a stroke so i would appreciate you praying for

him as he is in the recovery stage and is going to be transferred

to a rehabilitation center within the next couple of days

god willing.

And i'm hoping that this rehabilitation center

is used of god to restore him to full physical capabilities that he had

earlier.

And i ask of you to also pray that he is drawn closer to our

lord.

As a result of all of this i'd also like to ask you to pray

for wade williams.

Wade williams is a christian actor who actually starred in the

starring role of a movie called the inspector.

And the inspector is uh basically an autobiographical account

of richard romano the brother of world -renowned comedian ray romano.

Ray romano and richard romano uh was a new york city police officer and

his uh movie that he wrote and directed and co -produced

involves the story of how incidents in his life as a police officer and as a school

teacher were used of god to lead him to saving faith.

Well wade williams had a brain aneurysm recently and

he is in serious condition.

And so i would ask of you to pray for wade.

Wade williams and the the

facebook page for wade i think is collecting money for him for medical expenses.

So we hope that you can go to that facebook page for actor wade williams

after he is trying to recover by god's grace from this aneurysm.

But i believe we now have finally joining us todd freel of wretched tv

and wretched radio.

And right now i'm thinking he's a pretty wretched human being for me keeping me on hold this long.

And uh welcome to iron.

Sharpens iron.

Todd todd freel this is a very.

Let me tell you what happened.

I'm in a hotel room with my wife and i'm in a bit of a panic.

Sweetheart where's my belt.

I know i brought it because i remember when we were carrying stuff into the hotel.

I remember like it was dragging on the hotel room.

Where's my belt.

And then she finally said sweetheart did you check your waist.

I was already wearing it now.

Cut to today.

I keep calling you and i keep getting a busy signal.

Do you want to know why i kept getting a busy signal.

You were calling your own number.

Actually calling my own phone number.

Of course it would be busy i if this could be the first sign of something going to fritz.

That's two really bad mental issues in a week.

So my apologies bro.

Well at least you're here now.

So that quite that's quite all right.

Things like that happen.

In fact i obviously uh i'm thankful that you were willing to join us today.

Since yesterday i stood you up because of technical difficulties.

So uh i really appreciate your willingness to uh.

To be on the program today.

Chris.

I'm really not making that up.

I was calling my own number i won't go through.

We had to arrange for what happened and i tried.

I probably called myself seven times until it dawned on me.

I'm calling me.

Well we're going to be talking today about your new book.

Hot.

Off the press.

Judge not.

And by the way just so our listeners know since they can't see a visual here the word not is x

out on the cover and the uh subtitle is how a lack of discernment led to

drunken pastors.

Peanut butter armpits and a and the fall of a nation.

That is probably the first and last time the two words peanut butter and armpits will ever be

used together on this.

But uh i know that uh you're actually uh.

It's a takeoff really of the most probably the most abused and twisted scripture

in the entirety of the bible.

Matthew 7 1.

Judge not that ye be not judged uh you hear that.

Thrown at christians even by people who have no real familiarity with with the bible

at all.

And tell us why people are really not interpreting or exegeting that passage.

Correctly.

Well i think that we just need to examine this passage that

talk about judging.

And when we use the analogy of scripture letting scripture interpret scripture we come to the conclusion jesus

was not forbidding all judging.

For starters he couldn't be because he was making a judgment statement about judging.

Second of all in the verse itself he does some judging.

And he starts talking even in the next verse about these these bad believers these bad teachers the the

dogs and the swine.

Those are judgment statements.

Then furthermore it says that god is going to be judging us which

means if god judges it must not be a sin to judge.

So the verse itself tells us that all judging is not in view especially when we

consider in john chapter 7.

As opposed to this text which is matthew chapter 7 jesus tells us to judge with righteous

judgment.

Then we have all of the other commands in the new testament to mark those which cause division to be good

bereans to search the scriptures to make sure that what we're hearing is true.

So with all of that in mind we know that jesus is not saying don't ever judge anybody.

Not never not know how.

Instead he's telling us how to do it with the right attitude removing the log from our eye not

being condescending not being jerks but to do it with righteous loving judgment.

Just the.

Same way that god does.

Amen.

And uh well i have to obviously have you highlight or explain the subtitle.

Let's start with drunken pastors.

What on earth are you talking about.

Yeah you would.

You'd be inclined to think that these are people who are getting inebriated back there.

Well they're like peyton manning.

They're gonna drink a

bunch of budweiser.

These are the preachers who believe that you get

drunk in the hysterically

drunk in the spirit rodney

howard barley ghost by

congregation of fall down last

and it is a

monstrously even a

word from god.

And he was so clearly making this nonsense up.

And then he started to stammer.

And he was kind of getting confused.

He's like hey i you know i'm not drunk.

They use that because that's you get drunk.

Heidi baker she's one of the prophetesses in this movement.

You can go watch her youtube video where she's on the platform of this church with the

microphone next door.

And i'm sorry but this is

uh

well

you've got to uh let

our listeners know something about peanut butter armpits.

What on earth could that possibly be.

Yeah you know yourself.

So if you're

kind of shy

so you

got to do something fun whack it breaks the

ice.

And then after they do something revolting we talk.

And if you want to google ice break youth group icebreaker games.

You will see hundreds if not thousands of it.

And this particular one happens to be the first time i heard about it.

It's a mega church in florida.

The clone is still.

And so he adjusted the

next time between.

If you go to

youtube you

will see

that.

And the reason now that sounds like

something

that the criminal.

Charges could be brought against someone for that.

I mean that almost sounds like some kind of sick twisted erotic thing that some uh

-huh i mean this is really sick here.

Well you know chris honestly.

If you if you're very sexual

a lot of these games have to do with girls now making some sort of glob or some sort of

combination of doritos and pudding or what have you and then feeding it to the boys with their bare feet.

Oh boy and a lot of these games nature and they're

degrading.

We are children are not supposed to be babies and they're not supposed to be vulgar they're supposed to be

racing toward maturity they're supposed to be dignified and we're treating them like

adolescent.

They're idiots as if they're just they're just vulgar and they can't do anything dignified

and that's exactly what we're supporting.

I'm going to give our email address if anybody would like.

To join us on the air with a question of your own for todd freel regarding regarding his book judge

not and the not is crossed out uh our email address is chris arnzen at gmail

.com chris arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and

state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the usa.

And uh the last part of the subtitle you have here is

that this is all contributing to the fall of our nation.

Some people may think that you're.

Overreacting

with

that what

do you

mean by that.

Yeah i

i try culture.

You

literally

you've

got abortion

all of

it is for rotten root and that is the.

So i believe the reason that we are seeing so much of what we are being just

so shocked by is not because

the culture

power we're creating again.

The muddy percent some say it's as high as 80 percent of the

kids who attend youth group run off to university and notoriously backslide 60 to

80 percent.

So we have got ourselves a problem in the evangelical church and the fruit of that is a

corrupted nation.

Now uh when i have brought up.

Warning my friends who may be dabbling in the extreme

of the charismatic world when i've brought up names and and warned them that they should be

staying clear of some of these false teachers especially those that seem to dominate the

media i very often as you may hear as well come back from them

as a retort.

Well don't you know what it says in mark 9 where uh john

said to jesus teacher we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to

prevent him because he was not following us but jesus said do not hinder him

for there is no one who will perform a miracle in my name and be able soon afterward to

speak evil of me for he who is not against us is for us for

whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of christ

truly i say to you he will not lose his reward.

I don't know about you but i've heard that uh kind of thing thrown back at me as a rebuke that i should

never be trying to openly rebuke some of these teachers.

How do you.

How do you respond to that.

Well it is a rebuke

that we

need

to avoid

sectarianism

paul talked about

because the gospel is going forth but is happy that what

is going for

the gospel and so i

if there's a

lutheran man go because you're preaching

the gospel.

If you're a methodist with true gospel local

stripe you like but you're not

preaching

the true gospel

outside of that definition.

Then we do what the bible romans tells us to mark romans 10 mark those which cause division and avoid them.

Second peter is dedicated to marking false teachers.

But i wanted to write you about our common salvation.

So we make sure

that we follow rules of discernment.

We do have jeff.

In clinton township michigan.

Who asks uh or actually.

It's a combination of a statement and a question.

Joyce meyer is an adherent of the prosperity gospel.

Tim keller is an adherent of theistic evolution.

Using discernment how is it determined that meyer is a false teacher while keller gets a pass.

Well perhaps we should ask you first of all do you believe joyce meyer.

Is a false teacher

and do you believe tim

keller is getting

a pass.

Joyce meyer is

a trick and she is but

she also

teaches

now.

I believe that the issue of origins

it can't

really

adamant about it.

If somebody disagrees with that it's the sail hammer view.

It's with a day age theory.

It is the gap theory that is not rightly defined heresy

omnipotence but it does

not hit the then

that would

be a

bullseye but rightly defined

strictly now

obviously.

Also if they started to.

Teach that adam and eve were merely mythical figures to teach some kind of problem.

Right right.

Uh we have and just so you know i gotta tell you i i would i i i'm i'm so

strong about create my belief about creation

is not teach that god created the world in 6 24 hour days and rested on

the 7th 24 hour period a relatively short time ago compared to billions of years ago that

our bible isn't trustworthy.

It is that clear.

And by the way that's one of the chapters in judge.

Not.

And we have by the way our listener uh in michigan is getting a free copy of the book

judge not by todd frill.

Uh thank you burning bush for providing these free copies.

Um we have lou in sharpsburg georgia.

How dangerous are the tv preachers joseph prince and stephen

furtick.

You know i've never heard of the second one.

I've heard of joseph prince but you know i was.

Gonna finish my wife nice peaceful

dinner.

And you're getting me all whipped up with the joseph prince stephen furtick.

Uh stephen furtick let's start with him.

He's a mega successful pastor living in a 12 000 square foot home.

And i always get the two carolinas confused.

I believe he's in north carolina.

It's one of the carolinas.

Perry perry noble is the other mega.

And stephen furtick is becoming.

He's a td jakes wannabe.

In fact most recently he said that td jakes is his favorite preacher td jakes.

He's learned everything that he knows about td jakes which might be why he has so little left and so td.

Uh stephen furtick.

By his lifestyle his prosperity preaching is becoming more and more evident.

His embrace of a modalist heretic.

Td jakes says that this fellow is very bad news.

And his his preaching is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

And you can watch it it'll it'll veer even wackier because that's his trajectory.

Joseph prince is a very dangerous character.

His net

worth

is

about 24

million.

He's a

singapore

pastor antinomian.

Both joseph prince and avoided.

I thought you were going to break into a very popular uh pop song.

You're.

Saying it's all about the grace all about the grace sounded very familiar in another realm but we

uh have brian and by the way you're getting also a free copy

of the book judge nutt uh in sharpsburg georgia so thank you for

writing.

Um we have uh steve from wading river long island new york.

I believe that the end product that you are discussing is certainly a result of weak

preaching.

They display a desire to please people and increase their numbers.

As a result.

Is it fair to say that most of these pastors are not qualified to be in full -time ministry.

This conduct would.

Never be sanctioned by my home church.

Yeah i would say the answer that is most

likely.

Methodology is always attached to theology.

People don't

do

exactly right

try to determine

approach our

past

and i wouldn't say that they're not safe.

And uh steve you're going to be getting a free copy of.

The book.

Where did all these free copies come from.

Your publishers.

Burning bush.

We're very uh.

You know we're trying to buy a private jet here.

And uh we do.

I skipped accidentally over brian in gardeners pennsylvania.

Uh brian.

Asks and you're getting a book too brian.

Brian asks why do you suppose why do you suppose that god -fearing christians fall for the likes

of osteen hen etc.

And why don't pastors speak against these people from the pulpit.

I never hear pastors in the pulpit today speak against these hucksters.

Well i guess there is a philosophy that some even godly men and biblically orthodox men

shy away from naming names.

But you obviously don't have that hang up because you've named names in the book.

Uh what's.

Brian and gardeners pennsylvania.

Yeah i think the reason that people acquire for themselves their ears it's

because they like to have their ears tickled.

They don't believe in the true and living god.

They do not believe it but they like the idea of christianity tradition

culture family.

So they create a jesus.

They find a preacher who will deliver it and so they.

They also get a bit of a hint about women specifically who

are way

down looking for some sort of a relief but they don't want the stumbling block of

jesus which says your relief comes from recognizing.

You can't pay for

your own sins.

I did lose any

self

-righteous

completely

forgiven.

So i

think that's

why.

And

so if a pastor if you're listening and you hear that and you have been negligent in

naming names i trust that that will self.

See

how paul

named names.

See how

todd we are

out of time.

I

know

you

can only be with us for a half hour today and uh hey listen listen that my my my

phone tragedy let me just let's just keep chatting as long as you'll have me but you can hang up on me now if you

want to.

But i'll be happy to stay because of my inability to dial the correct phone number.

Okay.

Well then hey look but if you've got a show to run and you've got other things planned then just say goodbye and we'll

books i.

Well i think that we should keep the ball rolling.

That's fine.

With me and um we do have uh jim in

carlisle pennsylvania who says uh people

say not to judge our brothers in the church and that we who are

theologically inclined are the ones causing divisions by pushing theology over fraternity.

How do you respond to that.

Yeah there's no fraternity.

Without good theology take

them why are

we commanded to judge

with.

And

so in a situation like that i think

it just would be the authority because otherwise you'll probably just.

Well uh.

Guess what.

Uh jim you're getting a free copy of the book as well.

Predictable.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

We also have susan in newville pennsylvania who

says uh that i as a christian woman uh am knowledgeable enough

in the word to know that women are not to teach or have authority over men.

Uh the apostle paul teaches this clearly and i could see him even trace the roots of this command

to genesis which makes it not a cultural phenomenon.

My question is when i see or hear a woman on tv or

radio preaching to a mixed audience where there are men and women present and it's obvious she is the

pastor of this church should i immediately just switch her off.

Or should i just hear what she may have to say.

That could be of value.

Well there's so many in

this

instance.

I

wouldn't.

We're going

to talk about.

God designed

it this way.

So it must

be.

A woman should ever feel like a

second class christian.

If you go back to the girl

you can't be a

supporter

you can't be a helper.

That means you're in the back seat.

Do you know who the helper of israel was.

God himself.

There's no no.

Ignore.

There are

more.

That they are

all equal in glory dignity of our.

There is there must be rules.

Otherwise.

Things and

wife.

The

bible has

order and submission tied together.

Amen.

And uh

one of the things is that is constantly being hurled at those of us

who are.

Very theologically minded uh and of course we may often be

guilty of pride arrogance sectarianism that you brought up before.

Uh it's ironic to me how many people i know who are fellow calvinists such as

myself but yet will expect uh people to immediately come to

the same conclusions that we who are reformed have come to.

Otherwise they're idiots and they forget that it's it's god's grace alone that uh we come to

these uh understandings.

But uh how do.

How do you uh walk that tight rope of being putting god's

truth first and foremost and putting god first and foremost but at the same time not

giving the spirit of arrogance and pride.

Uh that vibe that uh can be the appearance.

Of

evil.

Yeah

that's a

great

question

and i i think

all of us

have

really

got a big

problem

with

that.

You should stuff that thing out as fast as you possibly can or

not.

The whole thrust of this is i give it up i give it up because i love.

And when we become conservative we have a tendency to move away from edifying with love to

being puffed up an

arrow

of

not.

All of your theology

isn't

doing what it's supposed to be

doing and that's something that we i'd be causing you

to.

Yeah you mentioned.

Something that uh i have run into a lot as i keep uh repeating that

i'm theologically reformed here.

But most of my listeners know that uh.

But i run into a lot of people from our camp.

I'm not sure that uh from our last interview if you would actually use that label but you're you're definitely in the orbit

of reform theology.

Um as far as your friends and associates and conference speakers that you uh work with um

people who are flaunting their liberty to drink and to smoke cigars and smoke cigarettes and

that kind of a thing.

Uh don't we have to be really more concerned over the souls of men than

our own hobbies and liberties that we delight in.

I happen to be somebody who uh comes out of a serious addiction

to alcohol.

Now i have been given by god's grace the ability to sit around with my

christian friends who drink wine and smoke cigars and so on and i have no god has given

me no uh temptation or weakening uh to

the witness of that kind of thing.

So i thank god for that uh i am not even in the least bit uh enticed

to have a drink again.

But at the same time there are other brethren who are not so uh capable

of refraining from something that will literally kill them if they return to it.

How do you respond to that that haughtiness that many of us have to flaunt the liberties that we have been given.

Well i i.

Think that the group that you're describing i would attach this

is time magazine reported on

this kevin reform movement and that's who i

feel like.

That's like the battle cry.

We love romans.

9 more than anything else has not informed most of their other

ologies and so their worship is and their and their

ecclesiology is lower than it should be of reformed

theology and one of the

hallmarks

of it is

we have

uh bob in white plains new york

who says i saw you recently.

Discussing the seventh -day adventist background of ben carson the republican candidate for

president on your wretched television program although i don't recall you ever coming to a

final conclusion publicly on what your opinion is regarding the seventh -day adventist church

i have heard uh mixed things about them.

I've heard from many that they are a cult to be avoided and i have heard from some that they have

changed so dramatically over the years that they can be counted among evangelical believers.

What is your opinion if you can tell us on the air.

The other things were fine.

But seventh day adventists i don't want to say anything bad about ben carson.

Now this is this.

You know what was the name of the fellow who wrote that.

Bob.

Bob that you kind of nailed it.

Bob your observation is very accurate.

On on paper in

that camp and yet there does appear to be appears to be.

That's a we want to be cautious with side of the sda that is falling on

the side of orthodox because they have rejected some of the heresy of the sda

including the elevation of their first prophet lng white.

They have gotten away from the idea of the atoning work that is still going on in heaven.

And but the problem is you get conflicting reports and for instance colleen

tinker who formerly was sda who now has a ministry dedicated to it.

And i always forget the name of their very good magazine that they uh former seventh day

adventists but just google colleen tinker not many people have that name.

You'll find her.

She would just she would just scream at me right now.

No the whole thing is outside of orthodoxy and it's cultic

also understanding that the original bible answer man walter martin reviewing them

he said i think yet before he died he

started to express more doubts.

Again.

I believe over at equip .org they

would say that you have got

because we want to exclude them because but maybe

there's a little bit of hope there

and i guess like with with many groups you could have.

Individuals in a drawer that are born again believers you bet.

And they may not even be aware of things like the investigative judgment or uh

the uh inspired uh writings of ellen white and so on.

Um they may have just been led to a firm conviction that the seventh day is

the sabbath.

And they just uh have joined the church because of that one.

Yeah.

And if somebody said if somebody says if you don't worship on saturday the way that we tell you

to you're outside of orthodoxy that that's precisely what.

And by the way bob

you got our last copy of the book.

Judge not by.

Todd freel and god willing that

means i'm not

gonna get one.

And a couple of you actually need to email me your mailing addresses so you could get those books.

So i asked for your full mailing address.

If you were one of the winners of judge not.

Um we do have a listener uh in rock hill south carolina.

Who who's getting nothing.

Uh.

Well maybe you'll be happy about that when you hear her question or comment.

Uh she says uh this is tony with an i i'm assuming that's a woman because it's.

Spelt with an i but i could be wrong.

Well it could be that rap group from the 80s.

Tony tony that's.

Right uh she is in rock hill south carolina and she says very troubled to

hear freels take on theistic evolution as it is the beginning of the end of the

visible church.

In my opinion without a literal reading of genesis coupled with the chronologies that give

us a time frame under 10 000 years we have no foundation for the

cross.

It may seem harmless to entertain such ideas but i tell you if we doubt god in genesis

then when the real persecution comes and is just around the corner then you will doubt

god in the gospels.

Maybe jesus isn't the only way she says.

Tongue and cheek.

I'm assuming and i'm apologizing if you're a man but i'm just assuming you're a woman because of the eye at the end.

But anyway uh if you could comment i'm sympathetic to all of that.

I i i i believe me

i i i i

really do feel that way but i i still i i think that we need to under.

And i tried to be really precise about

this.

That alone is why it

could.

Just the issue of the age of the earth they're behind it.

And chris as you rightly bring up adam and eve being real historical people that's a big issue.

What about death before adam's sin.

That is a huge who gets credit for that.

Because because of adam we sin.

It's man's fault that we have sin.

If there was fall that indicates that god is

responsible for though for that death and for that sin.

So it's one of the chapters in the book we've got to get away from

this old earth understanding.

So tony i agree with you but i just i can't state categorically that if

anybody believes that the earth is old is automatically a heretic.

They might be but not automatically.

Well we have about two and a half minutes for you to really unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you

most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program.

Yeah well i think maybe hope would be a nice thing right now.

Yeah that would be good.

Well we've been talking about a lot of things that we see in the evangelical church that are a little bit um

of a bummer shall we say.

And so this book ultimately though tries to point towards something we can do and i think this is an

important thing to remember in both the political realm in society in

church we can have a tendency to believe a lie that says if you can't fix everything don't bother.

So if you can't if you can't make everything better then sit on the sidelines.

That is a lie.

The reality is none of us are going to fix everything.

Not a single politician can get the job done.

Not one book not one pastor not one conference can fix up the mess.

That is evangelical christianity.

So what do we do.

I think that there's two things we can do.

Number one commit to serving your local church.

Join the best local church you can find and serve it and strengthen it by

focusing on the second point elevating everybody's view of the word.

Make your church a word -centered church.

Have it quoted in your prayers.

Make sure you're doing bible studies and not just topical studies.

Make sure that when you're making church decisions you're bringing up bible verses that there's bible reading

inside of the church service that it is understood by everybody.

The word is our foundation.

And if you do that in your local church you might not save all of evangelicalism.

But you'll strengthen your local church.

And then if i'm strengthening mine chris is strengthening his.

Then ultimately we will see.

That ripple into society amen.

And i know that your website is wretched radio .com wretched radio .com

and for anybody that did not win a free book you could go there and find out how you may.

There's nobody left.

And uh todd uh i want to uh also thank anthony eugenio of new york

apologetics who actually bowed out of his last half hour on the program so that you could have

full.

Why didn't you just say that.

Well because anthony gave his gracious approval for you to be on the.

Entire time.

Sorry bro you didn't have to.

Anthony's going to be on our program.

Uh again anyway he's.

Going to be on in about a week in fact one week from today he's on with frank turek so.

Oh sweet anthony just makes i.

I hope you're flush man.

You're going to give away a lot of books.

And uh anthony in fact has his own program and would love to interview sometimes so i'll get.

You his contact information.

Oh sweet i'm so sorry no no i i loved having you on and i'm sorry i'm a.

Dunderhead but i thank you so much todd.

I'm looking forward to having you back on the program maybe one of these days for two hours and i want everybody uh to always

remember that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are.

A sinner.

Look forward to hearing from your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.