Cultish: MLMs and Pyramid Schemes W/Sheologians

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Hey what's up everyone, we are super excited to announce that we will be making our first appearance on the road in Simpsonville, Kentucky July 28th and 29th at the

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Called to Freedom conference. If you are disentangling your faith after experience in a hyper -fundamentalistic or legalistic church group, this event is for you.

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There will be panel discussions, table discussions, inspiring testimonies, all from Christians who have rebuilt their faith, and even a game night guys.

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It's a weekend of rebuilding theology, rebuilding community, and rebuilding faith through God's words.

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So definitely check that out. Also Jerry and I are going to be speaking there and we're also super excited to meet you in person.

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You can register for the conference today at bereanholiness .com forward slash conference. That's B -E -R -E -A -N holiness dot com forward slash conference.

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Also until May 31st you can use the promo code CULTISH in all caps at checkout for $50 off the purchase price.

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We hope to see you there. Now back to the episode. Welcome back ladies and gentlemen.

01:06

Oh, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. Welcome to another crossover, SheLegends and CULTISH crossover.

01:12

Yes. This is the fifth crossover. Wow. When did we do those other ones? Can we take a, can we take a, what, okay, what was our first crossover?

01:20

Aliens. Yeah. Aliens UFOs. Wait, wait, wait. Can we talk about what babies we were? I don't even think

01:26

Andrew was on. No. It was Jeff and Jerry. It was Jeff and Jerry. We talked about aliens and then

01:32

Bob Lazar, right? Yeah. Bob Lazar. And then what did we do? We did, um, was it

01:38

Handmaid's Tale? Handmaid's. Oh yes, Handmaid's Tale. Was that the second? Was that the second one? No. We did the

01:43

Handmaid's Tale. Then we did the one on the, uh, that weird cult of the lady who, yeah, the one who, the lady who like died and they wrapped her in Christmas lights.

01:54

Remember? And then I don't even remember that one. Okay. You were there. I don't even remember that one at all. Okay. The Mother God cult.

02:01

And then, uh, the Manson. Manson. Oh yeah. Now talking about Tom O 'Neill. Tom O 'Neill.

02:06

That was fun. You're right. Now we're on to the fifth. Wow. Except for I don't remember doing one of those at all.

02:12

So like not even at all. Well, that's, well, that's a funny thing too is that you could probably tell me. What did I say? Yeah. I'm like that with every single one.

02:17

Joy, you said many great things. Okay. I don't remember any of them, but I know. That it happened.

02:23

Well, I, well, what happened with me too is that sometimes I will do this, um, study for something.

02:29

And you just study like probably who knows how many hours and you're done with a podcast and it just feels like this brain dump.

02:35

Like I have all this data that I don't know if I'm ever going to use like ever again.

02:41

And so a lot of times I'll come when I'm done, uh, like when I go, when I'm down with a podcast, like I just like lay on my bed and I'm like, ugh, like I just, my brain has to decompartmentalize.

02:51

Someone tries to talk to you about it later and you're like, no, I don't remember. I wish

02:57

I, yeah, I wish I had held onto that. When my husband's like, what'd you guys talk about?

03:02

I'm like, you can listen to it later. I don't know. Well, tell me that. Tune in. I actually had one time talking about, you know, months later and you probably have had this happen to where all of a sudden

03:13

I got this email from someone and this was, this was a year, years later, this was a year after we did the handmaid's tale.

03:21

Yeah. And this lady had this document, like this doctoral thesis laid out with timestamps.

03:29

So much time. Like timestamps of when I said this and when you said that and specifically like episode, the episode, like timing, like IMDB, like this is the point, this quote where this person said to this person under his eye and I'm like,

03:46

I don't remember anything. I don't, what am I going to do with this?

03:52

So I think, I think I actually sent, I just gave it to Brandy and she actually like sent a message back, like refuting everything that she said and then she never messes back.

04:00

So what we're telling you guys is we're about to tell you some amazing things. So amazing. We won't remember any of it.

04:07

Yes. But what are we going to, we are about to bring the, we forgot. Oh, oh, we're putting the, the her in network marketer.

04:17

Neck hurt. Network. Network marketer. Market her. Market her.

04:22

Yeah. That's what we're doing today. I can't believe. This topic is, we're obviously not jumping into it yet because, but I, this is an email that we get that Joy and I get a lot.

04:35

Please talk about this. And I have refused. I have absolutely refused. Joy has absolutely refused. I'm surprised we're even sitting here.

04:41

I'm like, oh no. I have absolutely refused to talk about it. And that's because I think what a lot of people want is some sort of like sledgehammer to take to their friends the next time they get an obnoxious

04:54

Facebook message. And you know, Joy and I are not in the business of offering hammers to people.

05:01

So that's one reason why we've never talked about it. But I think we can, I think we can do it in a way that will actually be helpful.

05:07

And so I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. And I think in the same way too, people have messaged us like, hey, you're going to do something that's like MLM related.

05:14

Mike, that's kind of, I mean, given that we kind of adhere to Walter Martin's definition of the cult model, where usually it's polarized around a specific religious institution or a charismatic cult leader who's getting revelation from God.

05:26

This is talking about, this is a business model. Unfortunately some MLMs qualify.

05:32

It could be. But it's like, you can't make a sweeping judgment, which we're going to get into.

05:37

No, you can't. Yeah. But yeah, it's been one of those things like, I don't know about that. But like, I don't know if we're going to do a strictly like an

05:43

Amway episode. Like I think I had somebody who was a ambassador of like, former ambassadors of like Amway want to talk to us.

05:50

I'm like, I just don't know. But you just said last minute, I'm like, you know what? Let's just tackle it. Let's just have a conversation. Let's just do it.

05:56

But you know what? You know what? This is the first time that we have recorded with you and you've been a married man.

06:01

Yeah. That's true. Jerry's married. Jerry's married. I know. Praise God. It's crazy.

06:08

Yeah. What? How many months? How many months is it? December. I don't know. Yeah. Like five months being a married man.

06:16

Yeah. Your marriage is like the same age as my infant. Wow. Which is interesting because I've already pretty much know everything there is to know about marriage.

06:24

Yeah. You've really aged. I'm actually. All figured out. I've actually got a book deal

06:29

I'm working with. Perfect. With Canon Press. They're going to be. I would think this would be more up crossways, Allie. Oh yeah.

06:37

Whatever you can do. Got to take what you can get. Yeah. Got to start off somewhere. What can all of us may not consider ourselves experts.

06:46

I'm pretty sure Andrew has been married the longest out of.

06:52

How long have you been married for Andrew? 2014. Yeah. I was about to say something dark about myself.

06:59

Yeah. I know. Together I have. Yeah. Moving on.

07:05

You're like well. Yeah. Yeah. No. He's the longest. But what what joy and I have recently discovered is that in every marriage and I want to know that you're you gentlemen's answer to this and every marriage there's the there's the perpetually impressed spouse and the perpetually unimpressed spouse.

07:25

So enjoys marriage. She is the unimpressed spouse like her husband will tell her he did this amazing thing and she forgets to like tell her face that it's impressive.

07:36

Right. Yeah. And then. And I do but it's just not a like a I am sometimes

07:41

I you know my I react appropriately but then I can't carry that for like very long periods of time which might tell you like how

07:51

I would speak to myself which is like OK very so so cool that you did that thing now what are you doing.

07:57

But then then we immediately pulled into my driveway and my husband was like jumping a vehicle and I was like I have all the manly things he can do.

08:08

He can jump a car could real quick. I was just blown away. Yeah.

08:13

So. So which spouse are you. Are you a spouse. Are you the impressed or the unimpressed spouse. Jerry. I am impressed by how unimpressed my wife is at me all the time.

08:26

Oh. Oh. OK. Yeah. OK. We'll have to rehearse that with that and just the reaction. OK. So which spouse are you.

08:35

Are you the impressed spouse or the unimpressed spouse. I am in the impressed spouse but I am impressed by how unimpressed she is at me sometimes.

08:47

And sometimes. Yeah. It's. I've learned a couple of super like super secret marriage tips that I could share real quick.

08:54

Well I was going to say I was going to say we should all share one. So. You know it's very easy when you're a

09:00

Christian to get married and instantly write a book. Oh yeah. Of things that. Or if you're an influencer like so I've been talking to my influencers this is what

09:08

I do with my husband. Oh yeah. So first we have to figure out if Andrew is the impressed or unimpressed.

09:14

But then I think we should all share one at least one thing that we. Despite all our flaws we absolutely do know is a good marriage tip.

09:25

Just one thing. OK. That you absolutely know. OK. Andrew. Yeah. Are you the impressed or the unimpressed.

09:31

I'd say I'm the impressed husband because yesterday my wife was cooking spaghetti and she made a spaghetti sauce like the way no one makes spaghetti sauce and it turned out so good.

09:42

Yes. I was extremely impressed. But I've told my wife about things I like super passionate about sometimes she's like yeah.

09:48

You know. That's cool. You know. So I'd call her the unimpressed. Kacey. You and me.

09:56

I am always impressed with Eric. Last night I just like rolled over and he was like reading some really old dusty book on his phone like he found the

10:05

PDF of it and I was like what are you doing. And he was like I'm reading this thing and it's like it's so old that it's like PDF images of it.

10:14

You can't even like transfer the text or whatever. And I was like but what is it. He starts telling me about it and it's the most boring old thing ever.

10:23

And I was just like. See. And he was like what

10:28

I'm just reading and I was like but but I feel like you're directly coming at me because my husband's my husband's library is like 25 percent like rare out of print books.

10:40

And I'm all on like plants and wild plants and stuff like that. He's like you can't bring food in here.

10:46

I'm like OK. All right. Everything he does. I'm like this is the coolest thing

10:51

I've ever seen anyone do. So I mean it. So my super secret marriage tip is to make sure you always require special attention for the things your wife normally expects you to do on a regular basis.

11:05

This will always keep her reminded of what a catch that you are and the catch that she found.

11:11

Wow. OK. That's. And the second one I would just get. We're praying. One last.

11:16

For your wife. One last marriage hack. And I actually shared this one time on a video which my wife has only seen.

11:24

It's only with her. But the super secret marriage tip is to make sure that you walk in the house with their shoe around the house with their shoes on at least once a week.

11:33

Just and this is just it serves as a reminder to make sure that your wife makes sure the floors are cleaned on a regular basis and she doesn't.

11:41

Absolutely not. No. My husband knows better. No. We do not do that.

11:46

We do not do the shoes inside. No. And obviously being a newly married person and giving visualizing my mind's eye like that the look my wife gives me when

11:58

I do that sort of stuff it's just a reminder that I honestly I've been in the process of just spending several decades as a bachelor and now

12:05

I am learning every single day the responsibility what it's like to be around someone because you could easily say, well, you know,

12:14

I, I, I've never chewed loud in my life up until up until I was around my wife. No.

12:20

Then you found out. I have chewed like I've chewed on meat like a Viking like up until like the last two decades and probably none of my other bros were like wanted to actually tell me, hey, you're eating like a pig.

12:31

It's just Jerry. It's just Jerry. Let him eat his food. He's enjoying it.

12:36

But you know, we're, we're jumping in full swing and I think, you know, it is awesome because you know, I remember Luke years ago, pastor

12:42

Luke saying how marriage is like the fast track to sanctification and at Tulsa I know like I am learning so much about the things that you say, the things that you do and there's, you know, there's times where you're just like, oh man,

12:54

I feel I'm a total jerk and I need to repent and I need to say I'm sorry and not try and win the argument.

13:02

Like I, you know, if there's, if a jerk falls in the forest and no one's around, has it always been a jerk?

13:10

It's like, yeah, you just have like a mirror on my, I was going to say my, uh, the one of all the things

13:17

I may think I know about marriage. The one thing that I know for sure is that you should always make sure you're not doing the thing you're mad about your spouse doing.

13:27

Yeah. All right. Yeah. So it's, it's a good one. Yeah. So it's interesting.

13:32

I mean, now, and now we're, uh, we're, we're going to jump ahead on and we're, we're already a family of three, three.

13:38

So it's so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a, I am a dad and we'll be, uh, uh, right now we're expecting probably like the middle of November.

13:49

So I'm like, this is all newly married, going to be a dad, just jump, jumping in full swing. Yeah. No holding back.

13:55

No. Jumping all in. We get a lot of things done in a relatively short period of time. We can. That's a great thing to think about.

14:02

Life comes at you fast. What's your bit of marriage advice, Andrew? Yeah, yeah. So we got the sheologians here.

14:09

Let's see if my marriage advice is biblical. I'll say that, uh, as, as a man, uh, make sure you're doing some active listening to your, to your wife.

14:18

If there's an issue before you provide a solution to the problem, that's my, uh, that's my two cents right there because that's my biggest, uh, issue is like,

14:29

Oh, I got the, I got the solution right here, but you know, you gotta listen a little bit first and I'm still working on that. Oh yeah.

14:35

That's a big one. And I think, you know, I feel like every guy who's been married for any length of time is like, yep.

14:41

Learned that one. The hard way. Wait, Andrew, you're saying that when I wrote out that giant like blueprint, like the 10, the 20 like step plan of how to fix this the whole time, all she wanted to do was just have me to listen to her.

14:57

It's true, bro. It's true, man. Shoot. I gotta go. I'm back to the drawing board and I get home today.

15:04

Just turn your plan into an MLM bro and get some, uh, get some good money. Here you go.

15:09

Let's see. Mine would be, um, I, I think in, in terms of communication, just like a little hot piece of advice is, um, when your spouse offers you like those little stupid details about their day that you don't think mean much, like actually, uh, actually take part in those, like ask a question about it.

15:32

Like care about the little ones. Cause I think a lot of like interpersonal dynamics is like, is this person actually hearing what

15:40

I'm saying? Like, are you, do you actually care about the stupid thing I saw on my phone? Like, Oh, I laughed at a meme.

15:47

Like, are you going to take the three seconds it's going to cost you to see it? Like take those little seconds.

15:53

And I think it actually, those little ones add up to a lot. And it's just something that people, I think

15:59

I, well, what's interesting is you see friends do that. That's what I was going to say is that's what goes into kind of.

16:04

Friends do that. Friends. Yeah. And so if you're not developing that piece, like you just end up becoming like roommates.

16:12

So actually like take the moment to look at your husband's boring old book, you know, like it's not that hard.

16:18

And it just says, I care, I care about your weird pasta sauce.

16:23

Like it's cool. Pasta sauce. Like, you know, like that's cool. That little thing, whatever.

16:29

So take, just do that. Doesn't cost you anything. Just care. Yeah. Well, speaking of care, uh,

16:38

I'm not sure how to transition. How would we transition?

16:43

Speaking of care. Boys. Speaking of friends messaging you on the internet.

16:48

We're all friends here. Inviting you to. So friends means also related to.

16:56

Yes, Jerry. Care. Let's see where you were going. Yeah. Well, I was trying to think of the transition.

17:02

This reminds me, I don't remember actually, but this is actually a good, a good segue to talk about because this is honestly joy before we're going to, oh, so by the way, we're probably have like a couple of, uh,

17:13

YouTube comments or like, okay, conversation starts at 25 minutes, but we're actually just soaking in the sin because this is our, you and I go way back.

17:22

He's going to say it again. I know. He's doing it again. He's going to keep saying it somewhere. I'm so sorry. Have y 'all ever seen me walk off a set before?

17:30

Cause you're about to. Yeah. No, we did go way back. Joy. We go way back. Like pre -sheologians, pre -cultish, even like pre -apology radio, we go way, way back.

17:40

And this is going to be the last time that we know that we're going to be face to face with a, you know, behind a microphone, which is, um, it's bittersweet, um, a little sad, but also happy to be here.

17:52

Yeah. But, um, yeah. But just, there is one time you talk about like a just Jerry moment. Like I remember this one time

17:58

I was helping lead a small group and you'll know about this and it's probably is example of what happened just now where I have this great point

18:05

I wanted to make and reach group. And I was like going and building up to it and it was, we were studying something and I was like building up to this final point and somewhere about 70 % to the point,

18:15

I forgot the point and people could see it. This, this one person goes to, who no longer goes to our church.

18:22

She said, she told me she, she, she could see it in my eyes. It was gone. And I'm trying,

18:28

I'm trying to like scramble, I'm trying to do two different things when I'm in the small group. I had this great point,

18:33

I forgot it and I'm building up to it. It was going to be the greatest point like ever you can end up in a small group. You know, everyone has those moments where you just, it's something so great that you're going to say it.

18:42

And so I'm trying to buy myself time and I'm adding words and adding examples. And somewhere in the back of my mind,

18:49

I'm kind of like, you know, it's like you're driving and like reaching behind and trying to do something and it got to a point where I'm just like,

18:57

I had nothing to say to her and everyone's looking at me, I'm like, yeah,

19:02

I forgot my point like 10 minutes ago. And they were like, we know, we know, everyone could tell.

19:09

We could tell. Yeah. The best thing about Jerry is it's not hidden. No, no, yes.

19:18

There's no pride. Right. So anybody who's known me for a very, very long time, it just knows they see me and hear my voice.

19:25

But it's like, yeah, that's Jerry. That's Jerry. Yeah. But it's, yeah. So we're here, but here we are.

19:31

Yeah. And, uh, all right. Let me think of a non segue where I won't forget because of whatever, whatever

19:36

I said was going to be super articulate, super articulate translation, but transition, but I forgot, but He already forgot where he was going.

19:45

Well, here, here we go. Here's the starting point for all this, because we've gone for a little bit. People are like, okay, timestamp starts at, but Hey, we're here to apologize to no one and just talk.

19:55

All right. It's been years. So I've done a timestamp. Just FYI. Oh, really?

20:01

Years. Oh. Oh, good. I'm so glad. It's been years. It's good. I think so. There's some things that you can stop apologizing for.

20:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, that was my apology for a while was all the timestamps. And then, um,

20:16

I think probably about three years ago I was like, I'm actually not sorry. Yeah. So I'm not doing this anymore.

20:23

Um, if you know how to listen to a podcast, you can probably find that 15 seconds skip button that I just,

20:30

I'm not sorry that it literally takes two seconds to click. But, um, by the way,

20:37

I'm just going to tell you guys, you can leave us a voicemail at 470 -465 -0475. Oh yeah. We need to do that too.

20:42

Yeah. You say that every time. I know. But it's 470 -465 -0475. And if you're frustrated with anything that we say, go ahead and call

20:51

Jerry's voicemail. It doesn't exist. So we, what we do have in common regarding this topic, um, is that you have avoided for a long time.

21:03

You're like, I don't want to touch this. I don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. And I've kind of felt the same way. I want to give some thoughts too, but what are your thoughts initially?

21:11

Cause it is, we, we, I can even see just with a post that we did with all those like vintage ones from like Amway and where were they at,

21:20

Mary Kay, Mary Kay, all these ones. And this, we're going to go actually into some of the history and origins of how this even started.

21:26

So regardless how you feel about it, it is incredibly interesting and fascinating. But what's the reason, like, why have you avoided this topic?

21:34

It seems like this, this will be a huge topic for you all to really do. It's probably on the minds of a lot of your audience.

21:40

Yeah. So I think one of the reasons that, you know, I already said, I think our big reason is that a lot of people, even in just the comment section, when you told people we were going to talk about it, they were like, you're going to talk about this, right?

21:54

Because so many people have been hurt by MLMs or have had a bad experience, um, that they are expecting a certain kind of weapon in this conversation that they want us to give.

22:10

So you're going to talk about how so -and -so killed his baby is like one of the comments that was left.

22:15

You're going to talk about this, right? Because, um, MLMs have hurt so many people that, uh, it's almost like wading into somebody's like scab is what it feels like.

22:28

And then there's also on the flip side that so many genuine

22:33

Christians are a part of MLMs and love them. And so you're dealing with two different people, two different kinds of people who really are looking for a certain kind of commentary, um, that I'm, and I don't think

22:48

I'm going to end up serving either group, uh, uh, how I think I want,

22:54

I want to, um, but everybody has, everybody has a story with MLMs.

23:00

Um, I can actually tell you how I accidentally became a part of one once. Really? Yeah. Tell me that. Yeah. Okay.

23:06

All right. So, um, I didn't, this was over a decade ago.

23:11

I didn't know what an MLM was. I had no clue. Uh, what I knew was that I had a very, very small infant who kept getting colds.

23:21

We had just moved to a colder climate. I've never lived in a colder climate. Um, and my baby was just getting sick all the time, like all the time.

23:33

And so my friend was like, Hey, you should try this product. Uh, it really helps my kid when she has a cold.

23:40

I just like use this and it really, really helps. And I don't know,

23:46

I can't speak to whether or not this product actually helped or if it just coincided with my child's immune system finally winning a battle.

23:56

But what I know is I use this product and my infant was genuinely better. And I'm like a really young mom, first time mom, this is the first time

24:05

I'd ever even been around a baby. It was really my own baby. And I was like, I'm going to buy a ton of this.

24:12

Like it was so helpful that I'm just going to buy a bunch. Um, and then what happened was, uh, all of my friends knew that my daughter had been getting these horrible colds and like all of a sudden she wasn't anymore.

24:26

And they were like, well, like what happened? Like, did you go to, what'd you do? And I'm like, I just use this stuff. And they were like,

24:32

Oh, and I just told them about it. And they were like, I'm going to try this with my kid. And I was like, okay, like, um,

24:40

I can get you a discount. All I knew was I could get you a discount. And so like four months later, a check shows up in the mail for me, like an $80 check from this company that I had bought this product from.

24:55

And I was like, what? And so like I contacted them to try to get it back. I was like, this is a mistake.

25:01

Like I don't know why they're sending, like all of a sudden I started getting checks in the mail. And I was like, I don't know why they're sending me money.

25:08

I like told my husband, I'm like, what do I do with this $83 check? Like for me from this company, like I don't get it.

25:15

Um, but long story short, because I had bought the products and because I knew

25:21

I was going to keep buying them, I like signed up to have an account to get the discount. And then when

25:26

I gave my friends my account number to get the discount, what I had done was become a part of an

25:31

MLM where you spend, you give them a certain amount of money and then certain amount of people sign up underneath you and buy the products and you get a commission.

25:40

And so I started getting commission checks because I was just doing naturally what women do when something works for them.

25:46

You talk to your friends about it and you get them to buy it. But like I just genuinely thought like, man, this stuff's like really helping my kid.

25:54

Like, and like I said, I didn't know what an MLM was to the point where I contacted the company and tried to give them the money.

26:00

Like this is, this was a mistake. Like, I don't know why you sent me $83. Like I don't get it.

26:07

Um, but the moral of the story is I had to spend, I had to spend $150 before I got an $83 check.

26:14

And something really important to know about MLMs is like 99 % of people lose money.

26:20

So like I spent $150, right. And I made $83. Yeah. Well, and your friends had to keep in mind your friends under you had to spend money too.

26:29

Yeah. So anyway, that's how I accidentally became a part of an MLM. And to this day, um, after a while I stopped buying this stuff and a bunch of other things happened that led me to go, this was either placebo or just incredible timing that made it seem like this helped my daughter with her colds.

26:50

Um, when this, when I started seeing people claim that these same products could cure cancer, a little like light bulb went off for me, even as like a 23 year old where I was like, this is getting weird.

27:05

Um, and I'm don't want to be a part of it. Um, but all that to say to this day, I still get,

27:10

I don't know how I still get emails. I still get texts. Sometimes I'll get text messages. I don't even have the same number from this company.

27:17

Um, and it's been well over a decade, a decade since I've purchased anything. No, I'll share with you.

27:23

Go ahead, Andrew. A quick question for you. So summer, what stopped you from seeing some of those checks and being like, I'm going to keep doing this.

27:28

I'm going to get more, get more people. Was it just kind of logic to you? You're like, well, I paid this much. I'm only getting this much back. Like what stopped you from?

27:35

It actually creeped me out. It was like, uh, it creeped me out that I was being given money, um, for doing nothing except telling people about it.

27:47

And I also realized that, yeah, like, okay. So I spent one 50, but my friends also spent one 50 and now

27:55

I'm getting an $83 check. And then the, the emails. And like I said,

28:00

I still get emails and texts. I've changed my number. Like they still, um,

28:07

I was just like, well, it really was the claims. It was, it was getting money. It was getting $83 for these hundreds of dollars that had been spent.

28:16

And then, like I said, the claims that people who use this product, we're making about cancer, about it, curing cancer and curing incurable diseases and things like that made me go, this is insane.

28:30

This isn't right. Like, it's not, it's not right. And that's not, that's not true. And the whole thing just made me super uncomfortable.

28:37

My, my red flag went off. Um, and I was like,

28:43

I'm not going to buy this anymore and I'm not going to tell people about it anymore.

28:49

And I, I like really had no idea what an MLM was at this point. It was brand new to me. Yeah. I think that's when, when it was the,

28:57

I mean, obviously they've been around for a while, but I think there was sort of, uh, the spike and a lot of people got involved before they kind of realized exactly what was happening.

29:09

But yeah, I think that, I mean, I guess the, I guess the original question was like, why have we not wanting to cover this?

29:19

But I think that you hit on some things in your story that kind of like, it's not that I, I mean,

29:29

I guess I can't speak for everyone here at the table. Also, it's not that I believe there's non -conventional treatment for cancer, but I am slightly skeptical of a product that cures colds in children and cancer.

29:45

Um, and you know, so there's just, there's, there's just a lot, I think maybe there's a lot to be said.

29:52

And so my, there's a lot of emotions tied up in this and a lot of people feel loyalty for a product that, um, they find efficacious and, um, or they like the results of.

30:09

And then there are people like you said, that have been hurt or just kind of destroyed.

30:14

So there's just like tensions running high. And I guess my desire, which

30:20

I guess this just means, you know, if you want to expose me as a coward, Jerry, I guess here you go.

30:27

But you know, there's just some topics where, where you just like, you know, how you feel.

30:33

And, um, like if you were to talk about it, you wouldn't say anything that was untrue, but the response to it, it might just not, it's like, you know, you just said, we're, this is our last episode that you and that we'll be doing face to face.

30:47

It's like, we all have things going on. And there are some things that I just like, it's just not worth it to talk about.

30:56

I think that we can talk, have a good conversation about it today. But my decision walking into this episode was just,

31:03

I'm not going to say anything untrue. And that's all just my goal. Every time

31:08

I sit down, but for some reason I feel the need to just say like,

31:14

I'm not going to say anything. If I think I'm going to say something that's untrue, I will not say anything.

31:19

So, um, that's not me saying I'm right. I'm automatically right. I'm just saying that, um, we are going to all try to keep it very true surrounding this conversation.

31:32

And, um, if our generosity towards maybe people who do

31:38

MLMs upsets you, that's something you're going to have to figure out. And if our, uh, if maybe we're not so charitable to people that are involved in MLMs, or you feel we should be more charitable, that's just something you're going to have to think about.

31:53

And one caveat that we give sometimes on Sheologians is that, um, if we're not talking about you, we're not talking about you.

32:03

So if there's no need, if, if the statement we're saying is maybe adjacent to you and your fear is that we're talking to you, but what we're saying isn't true about you.

32:13

What that means is that we're not talking about you and you don't need to feel defensive.

32:19

Yeah. Well, and, and too, I think this is particularly an issue that disproportionately impacts women, which

32:27

I think is why, why we get the emails. And one reason I already told you why it disproportionately impacts women.

32:35

My story is exactly why it disproportionately impacts women. If women are good at anything, um, it's social contagion and social influence.

32:45

And like, I accidentally made money in an

32:50

MLM. I don't know that a lot of dudes have that story. Um, and it's because of how much we can influence each other as women and as mothers.

33:01

And it's like, you hear a mom say like my child with this horrible cough,

33:06

I fixed it with X. Like what won't a mother do for her child? I'll spend $70.

33:13

I'll spend $150. Like to fix, if this is going to fix my child, if this is going, like, it's a no brainer.

33:20

Well, and we're always like managing our systems. We're always looking at the little details of our systems and going like, is there a product that could like make this more efficient?

33:31

Like I'm having this problem. Like I wish they had a this. And then now you can just sort of like type in a description on Amazon and it's like, oh, they have that solution.

33:40

I mean, it literally the other day, this lady was like, oh, oh, I don't have, my child never has teething problems because I, I buy this product.

33:48

And it's like, that is, that is women in a nutshell. That is why, and I also believe, and I know we'll get more into this, but one of the reasons why

33:59

MLMs are so strong in faith -based communities is that in faith -based communities, we trade on the ability.

34:10

Like I, I believe you, you, you go to my church friend. Yeah. Like you go to my church.

34:16

You believe in a moral authority that's above us. You're not going to pray upon me and lie to me because you love me.

34:25

You care about me. We have the same religious commitments. And so MLMs are not stupid.

34:31

Like they, they absolutely rely on these interpersonal dynamics. You have to believe the person who's selling it to you.

34:40

And that's, that's how I accidentally made money was like, I wasn't lying to anybody.

34:45

Like I, I use this product and it, well, my kid wasn't sick anymore. And like I said,

34:50

I can't tell you like if it was genuinely helpful or like that was just the end of that cold.

34:56

I don't know. Was that the end of that cold seat? Like I don't, to this day, I can't definitively answer that question.

35:04

But what I know is that I wasn't lying. And that made me an incredibly good salesperson for this product.

35:14

And so that's one thing to know about MLMs is they can use you without you even realizing it because they depend on the social, the high trust environment of religious communities.

35:29

And who's to say that that product didn't have any impact on my kid? I still can't tell you 10 years later.

35:35

I have no idea. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think in general there, obviously there are some situations where this is not true, but generally when your friend recommends you a product, she's not lying that it works.

35:50

Right. Right. Yeah. I wasn't trying to, I was, I believed, I was like, this is, this is what happened.

35:56

Now has she done a clinical trial or, you know, like we don't know that. And, and sometimes you, you take the, you take a recommendation and it does suit your needs and it really works well.

36:09

And it's wonderful. And of course there are people that you trust there. There are products to this day that I buy because somebody

36:14

I trust told me about it and I'm not. And they're legitimately the best product. Yeah. I'm not sorry.

36:20

It's like if Nicoletta tells you this is the best form of magnesium, like you just buy it.

36:25

Nicoletta knows hashtag. Yeah. You just buy it. Ultima baby. And so again, that, that is one reason that is why

36:35

MLMs thrive in a religious female community in particular.

36:42

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37:29

And a big part of this is a big part of MLMs to a storytelling marketing. So in that note, like one thing

37:34

I want to say too, is that a lot of people in this whole conversation will bring in their confirmation biases. So you think about if you have prejudice, if you, even if you buy a product on Amazon, you have a bad experience, what are you going to do?

37:46

You're going to look at that product on Amazon. You're going to automatically go to the one or two star reviews, just so you can have everyone, you know, reinforce how you feel about this product.

37:55

Who else resonates with me? Who's on my team? Who's on my tribe? And that's what you see a lot of times in the online world.

38:02

And so you see a lot of that with even this whole conversation with that post that we did.

38:07

But just, I want to share a story too, because I mean, a lot of people say, oh, are you going to just go and just throw down the hammer and MLMs?

38:14

I don't think I can completely do them. I'll just share a story about my introduction to the world of network marketing is that my, you both know my mom,

38:23

Andrew, you know my mom. And you know. I actually already know this story. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it was, and I remember this because like yesterday, because it was the night the

38:31

Princess Diana died when it was the, I mean, I remember that story's on the news. Everybody's mom cried that night, right?

38:38

Yeah. Was everybody's mom. I remember like exactly where I was. It was traumatizing. I remember all the adults just being horrified and I was too little to understand anything that was going on.

38:48

We were in like a kitschy gift shop and the gift shop owner had a TV on and everyone in there was just like watching the footage.

38:56

Yeah. Oh, my mom was just crying. I was looking at one of those lollipops with a scorpion inside of it.

39:01

That's how fully formed that memory is. I loved those things.

39:06

I loved those things. Did I eat it? No. Did I buy it? Yes. Dad, buy me eight of them.

39:12

So my dad had her, so our family situation, I'm second oldest to seven. And at that point, my mom had really bad rheumatoid arthritis.

39:20

It really kind of hit a pinnacle where it was, she was in bed constantly. It was very challenging because a lot of us now, like we didn't, family of seven and we have a mom who can't be a mom.

39:30

Yeah. And she's in pain all the time. And it was a challenging dynamic for sure. And so my dad heard an infomercial talking about this amazing product that helps people.

39:39

And it mentioned somebody in this infomercial gave a testimony about arthritis. So my dad calls them up. And sure enough, these two guys,

39:46

I remember them, Mike Williams and Greg Stokes, they show up and they start talking about this amazing product.

39:54

And it took my mom like 15 minutes just to get from my room to, I mean, her room to the living room, just to hear them.

40:01

And, you know, my mom's like, just my mom should start crying because she's been, she has tried everything in the sun.

40:07

So like, don't you dare give me hope when. If there is none. Yeah, there is. And, but this guy was, and the other thing too is like this guy,

40:15

Mike was, he was like genuine, like he genuinely cared. I could tell, you know, even I can't remember how old

40:22

I was at the time. But in the whole time he goes, and because he says, and this guy,

40:27

Mike says, and because this is going to change your wife's life and give her her life back, this is also going to create an amazing business opportunity.

40:34

So my dad was like, wait a minute. And it like kind of crosses arms with skeptical. He's like, I've, I've been kind of thrown this before.

40:43

But sure enough, my dad was like, okay, fine. What have I got to lose? Let me just, let's just give it a shot. Like it's.

40:48

Try it. It can't be worse than what it is now. See my wife and pain all the time. And this product like changed my mom's life.

40:55

It saved it really. My mom wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for what she was introduced to.

41:02

And so I'm thankful for that. Like if this, this industry and some of the kids saved my mom's life. And so I am,

41:07

I'm viewing it with that thread. It doesn't mean. Right. So you can't, you can, you can do your pendulum swing one way or the other.

41:14

You can't, you know, I can't say that every single person in the industry is a saint, but when you watch the documentaries like Lula Rich or the ones about Herbalife, you can see, no, there's like real problems too, with even how it's perpetuated, what people get into and not even realize what they're doing.

41:30

And sometimes the kind of like cult, like you behaviors. And there's a lot of, you can't unravel this, but I don't want to say like, my point is like,

41:38

I come with like, and I've met and I've connected with a lot of people who have been in that and similar industries, like a lot of great quality people.

41:46

And even product there's products that I'm not going to take. I'm not going to, I'm not going to like endorse it. Cause I'm, we're not going to sponsor an

41:52

MLM, but there's, there's products that I take and I buy from people who are independent distributors.

41:58

Cause I like their products. Like the whole pitching thing, it's just, it's not me. It's not my bag. I just got to throw that out there.

42:05

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to understand the distinction between like, there are supposedly quote unquote, legitimate

42:11

MLMs and pyramid schemes, right? That pyramid schemes aren't legitimate, but MLMs closely resemble pyramid schemes.

42:18

So pyramid schemes, there's no real product that's sold in a pyramid scheme. It's more about making money by recruiting new participants into the program.

42:27

So essentially, if you think about it, it's a form of people selling. Yeah. Right. And you're not dealing with equal weights and measures.

42:32

And we know that the Bible says in Proverbs 16, 11, that's extremely important. God cares about dealing with equal weights in measures.

42:39

So there's, there are MLMs that can be legitimate, but also MLMs, MLMs are fronts for many things that are pyramid schemes that are not good.

42:48

And people end up getting hurt regardless. So Joy, what about you? Were you ever pitched or like, what's kind of your story?

42:55

Were you like, do you have that origin story? I was kind of a part of that just movement where they, like all the products started getting popular.

43:04

And then, so you'd like see, start seeing the products and the products were kind of viral.

43:10

Like that was when we kind of started understanding virality. Yeah. And then, and then you were pitched this, then like on the back end of the product, you were like told about like selling and buying and, and a lot of the people that I know that were involved purchased not to sell, but for the product.

43:34

Yeah. And the price difference of the product without being a seller versus the product price being a seller.

43:45

But yeah, I mean, I didn't, there was, I had some interest in some of the products and I still have maybe not interest in those specific brands, but some of the products that they were selling generally.

43:59

But I, there did, there came a moment where I, yeah, my alarm bells started going off a little bit.

44:10

Some of it was the, the pushiness of like, you know, well, so first of all, actually just sort of the general buzz of being at like a sales party, because that's how it, that's where it really happened at the beginning is you're in a room.

44:31

Yeah. Most likely you're in a room with all your good friends. Yeah. People you know, people you trust.

44:36

And someone you trust or someone that your friend trusts is telling you about a product.

44:42

They're telling you the most exciting things about it. They're giving you all this information. It's this whole new system to learn.

44:48

Yeah. And the products are great. And then again, like you're trying products, products actually work, products like, you know, it is what it is.

44:58

And you're kind of like running off of the energy that's in this room, which like you're basically, it's you and your friends having fun.

45:10

And social contagion. Yes. And this, and then there's this added component of this product that's going to solve a problem in your life and, and it's a nice product and they let you try it and you maybe actually liked it.

45:23

But then I did have, I did have a few ladies, not anyone

45:28

I knew directly, but like friend of a friend type situation where they were a little pushy, like kind of contacting a lot.

45:39

And then like me kind of not contacting. And then me eventually saying, no, thank you.

45:44

And then they were still kind of contacting. And it's like, that's just not, that's not like we were all friends in that room, but that's not a friend type behavior.

45:55

Like when I tell you, no, thank you. And you're still trying to sell me the product.

46:01

Yeah. That, um. That's something else. That makes me feel like you're just selling.

46:07

It's not, no longer about the benefits of the product, but that's really, I mean, I had a very,

46:13

I would say light introduction to it. And then kind of early on ish that there were, there was a very short period where I was like excited and then, and then it was just, uh, not,

46:31

I started alarm bells started going off and I was like, yeah, this just doesn't.

46:36

I think maybe even at the time, I, even if I couldn't have quite put my finger on it, I just didn't.

46:42

Yeah. It took away from the buzz of it. And it just made it seem like more of a scheme, more of a pitch, which

46:51

I think just makes you, we all know why salesmen get a bad rep.

47:00

Right. And there's, we all know there's a huge difference between someone selling you something honestly and legitimately and someone just trying to sell you something no matter what.

47:13

Right. And so I just started getting more of that feeling like, I feel like you're just, like you were my friend when

47:18

I met you at the party, but now it's kind of like, you just really want me to buy your stuff.

47:26

Yeah. So we're not friends is what you were saying. Yeah. So, so where, where would you guys draw the line with, uh,

47:32

MLMs? Cause I know you guys did episodes on NXIVM and Keith Raniere. His enterprise success program was essentially like an

47:39

MLM. Can you explain where the line would be drawn between like saying, you know, taking like a broad brush with MLMs and saying,

47:48

I'm not going to, you know, uh, have a formal position on it, but versus NXIVM, like what's the difference between the

47:56

Tupperware, uh, MLM. I don't even know if that is an MLM or NXIVM. What's the difference?

48:02

Well, in one, you have to be a part of a sex cult, um, and, and the other, you just have to have

48:09

Tupperware. So, um, I don't know. Was Tupperware an outfit? Well, yeah, there's a

48:14

Tupperware. Yeah. No, but was Tupperware like a MLM type thing? Yeah. Yeah. For a long time,

48:19

Tupperware parties were. No, I knew that. I just didn't know if they were like. Well, I don't know if Tupperware is an official brand.

48:27

I don't know if it was Tupperware, but it's, you know. It was the official brand. I just didn't know if those parties were like.

48:33

They were MLM parties. Yeah. Uh, not Tupperware, the brand, to be clear.

48:39

Just things you put old food in. No, I'm pretty sure that was the brand. Well, they're very litigious, so I'm not saying that.

48:46

We're not confirming that. Um, so the line that I would draw, and again, this is going to be a general biblical principle.

48:56

Um, but what I would say, what I think women need, what

49:01

I think women in particular need, and maybe you guys aren't going to totally relate to this, but. Well, congratulations on being a dude.

49:09

I've been married for five months. I fully expect myself to fully relate.

49:16

Try me. So women, I think are particularly is we, we want to believe our friends.

49:24

We want to alleviate problems. And so what

49:29

I think women in particular need to be wary of and cannot as a Christian participate in, let's say

49:35

I really liked Norwex. I hear their products are great.

49:41

Okay, cool. Um, I cannot as a Christian tell my friend, hey, do you want your life to be completely revolutionized?

49:53

Because this rag is what's going to do it. Like you're never going to experience a better cleaning day in your kitchen unless you have this rag.

50:05

Um, because it's just not, I think it's just not honest. Um, you can tell your friend about how great a product is.

50:12

That's fine. You can tell your friend, I love this thing. And like, it's been really helpful. But I think when you start sounding like a social media ad, you've kind of left the reservation of like what your duty is as a

50:27

Christian, which is we sell this like perfect life. Like we sell this, like, if you have this product, then this is going to happen to you.

50:37

Um, you don't, you don't know that. So with something like, you know, taking magnesium, right.

50:43

I would say you should take magnesium. Like it's good. It's good for you. Um, if I started, if I like looked you in the eye and told you like, buy this magnesium for me, because you're never going to have a better night's sleep than you ever have.

50:57

I've left by what standard? Like I've left the realm of what I've over promised something that I can't actually know is going to happen to you.

51:07

Um, I can, I do know based on truth that most people are magnesium deficient and it's probably something that you should be taking.

51:14

And here's a brand that's good. Um, but if I'm going to financially profit off of a promise that this particular magnesium is going to change your sleep, that's not something that I know.

51:28

I don't, I can't look my friend in the eye and know she's magnesium deficient. Like that's not something that I can do.

51:35

Um, I, well, and with the internet, this, like if you post anything health related, really anything like women love recommending, they love the problem.

51:49

They love the, Oh, you have that problem. Here's how I solved that problem that I had. And you will just get like a thread full of 35 different pieces of advice.

51:59

Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, I think that it's, it's good to attempt to understand, especially products that like offer some sort of health benefit and you're going to have to talk to a trusted source who's trusted for a reason that's more than just, yeah, you're my friend.

52:18

Well, and I think this conversation is, is by, by what standard, by what standard can you say that to me?

52:24

So if I'm going to give you health advice, it has to be something that lines up with scripture.

52:29

It has to be something that lines up with scripture. It has to be something that, um,

52:36

I can say, well, I know that, uh, you know, God designed our bodies, uh, in a certain way.

52:44

And this is what I know is true about our bodies. This is, and it can't be, well,

52:50

I read this ad and I know of this person and that's a lot of what happens. And so the distinction that I would make about whether what your duty is, if you're considering being a part of an

53:01

MLM is, um, how, what are you willing to promise?

53:08

And can you look, how about this though? This is one concern that I have is like, are you selling a product that's just like a more expensive version of something else?

53:19

Because if you're a friend, if you're really concerned, your friend has, you know, let's stick with the magnesium because it's an easy one.

53:25

Like, let's say, you know, you know, you know a little bit about science, you know, about magnesium deficiency, whatever.

53:32

Um, are you going to sell your friend this expensive magnesium because it's going to financially benefit you?

53:39

Whereas, you know, you could maybe suggest to them a different product that might be helpful because who are you, who are you blessing in this conversation?

53:48

And, and are you promising that, that fixing this is going to fix you ultimately? Because I would say that's not love.

53:55

Like that's not loving your neighbor as yourself. Like you're trying to make a sale at that point. Um, and that would be something that a

54:03

Christian should not be participating in. Yeah. And one thing I'll just say too, is that when we, even when we talk about selling, like the

54:10

Bible talks a lot about economics, a lot. And you know, a lot of times we try and spiritualize

54:17

Proverbs where everything is like, everything's always a spiritual analogy, but okay. But King Solomon, he is the wisest, most wealthiest man who, who's ever lived ever.

54:26

So he might, when he talks about wealth and prosperity and those sorts of things, he's talking about wisdom that came from God where actually learned things and I applied them.

54:38

Right. So like selling is actually a good thing. Like Proverbs 11, so Proverbs 11, 26 says people curse those who hold back the grain, but there's a blessing on the head of him who sells it.

54:50

So in reality is that you get to be, if you have something that's good and is worthwhile, that actually is a blessing to people, but you don't set it up where you can actually have a way where people can, there can be exchange, there can be a back and forth, left and right.

55:06

That actually is, is a curse. But when you actually can give something in exchange where you have people realize that, okay, what

55:13

I have is less, what you have is more valuable than what I have. Let's do an exchange. Like God says, there's a blessing, like that's, that's right in Proverbs.

55:22

But along with that, and this is where it's kind of tricky because when it comes to even like marketing and branding as a whole, like there's always.

55:30

So here, here's something I learned just because I've always been kind of like a marketing geek and kind of studied different aspects of it.

55:36

So when someone buys something, when you buy something, you're not buying that product.

55:42

You're buying the marketing of that product because like you walk into a Coles and you see a cute t -shirt and you see the display on the wall, like, you know, the mom like walking with her kids and he's like, oh, that's really cute.

55:53

And it fits really well, but it's sort of giving this visualization. Hey, this, this feels comfortable, right?

55:59

Then all of a sudden you make that decision. For example, you all familiar with the North Face, right? The brand. So here's what the

56:05

North Face does. This is what their brand does as far as like marketing goes. So you can go probably and buy like a winter jacket.

56:14

That's probably just as comfortable, just as good a quality, might even keep you warmer than the

56:21

North, the North Face jacket. But what does the North Face do when you go to their website? I don't know if they're super woke company now.

56:28

Hopefully it's not like some trans Jenga on top of a mountain or something, but it probably, it probably is, probably is.

56:35

But anyways, you, it's usually somebody traveling into the great unknown, you know, on top of a mountain, like reaching up, you know, up, going up Mount Everest or something like that.

56:45

So really when you look at North Face's brand is that you're not just putting on a jacket.

56:50

You're putting on adventure. You're putting on a passport. A U, a new U. You're putting on something that gives that you're giving yourself permission to travel into the great unknown.

57:02

So there's this level of emotion that comes with that. And that's a big part of it. So when you come, and I think the challenge that I have had as we kind of jump into this, we're going to jump back into the origins of how this started in a second, which is going to be related to your show and feminism, patriarchy and all that fun stuff.

57:17

But it is what I have had trouble with is that, because I've kind of delved a little bit into this.

57:24

I mean, obviously, you know, I can't tell you the story of my parents, is that a lot of times when I've tried to embrace that whole world,

57:31

I sort of get forced into becoming somebody that I'm not. You know, you like dress for success.

57:39

What's the thing? Fake it till you make it, you know, and it's just like every single time, like, that's not me.

57:44

And I think only of us, and I'm saying, I think there's people in that industry who are very real, very genuine, very authentic.

57:51

I think it is challenging for me and for a lot of people to say, walk down what this company tells you to say, but still be your authentic self.

58:00

And I think a lot of times you said it's more like you see someone posting on Facebook, but all of a sudden it's your, this is not you.

58:08

This is sort of like something you're being told to say. Yeah, like a little script. Yeah. And you have to work.

58:13

I mean, if you want to make money in direct sales, like you have to be very busy being your own advertiser.

58:21

Right. You better be on Instagram. You better be on Facebook. You better be making reels. You better be filling up people's stories.

58:28

Like if you're not doing that, you aren't going to be getting enough eyes to be making sales.

58:35

Well, so, and this is my distinction is that we're not, when you're talking about an

58:43

MLM, you're not just talking about a product. Yeah. You're talking about getting people to sell underneath you.

58:52

Yes. And that's actually how you make money. You are making your money.

58:57

Yep. Is that you have a team of people that are essentially selling as well.

59:03

Right. Yeah. In order to do that. So you're talking about the, the claims surrounding the product, but the claims surrounding the becoming a seller is a huge distinction for me because we actually know the math has been done.

59:21

Yeah. About how long it is sustainable for people to be making lots and lots of money selling

59:33

MLM products and getting people underneath them purely just because of how you're the people in the surrounding area work and you're just going to need a certain amount of people to be selling to, but you're not, you're not selling to them because that you're creating sellers.

59:49

So basically what you're doing is you're creating. You have to create sellers to create money. If you get in early, you will be, if you get in early and you sell hard, you will probably make a lot of money, but that is not sustainable over time.

01:00:04

Just based off of how, how the system works. So what that means is that at a certain point, you are lying to someone when you you're lying to the single mom, when you're saying, and you won't, you will not have to, you know, you can work from home and you can,

01:00:24

I pay my, you know, my husband still works, but I pay my mortgage every month with this business and you can be self -employed.

01:00:32

Um, and I, that's a false claim, especially depending on how far you are in like how, uh, far reaching that product has already infiltrated the market.

01:00:46

Um, that's not, that is, that's a different, like, well,

01:00:51

I guess it depends on the product and what it's promising, but you're basically, you're promising a whole new life.

01:00:57

If you're telling someone it can cure cancer and you're telling someone that you won't have to be poor and struggling anymore, you're talking about a very extreme claim that we know for sure works that it's not a 100 % sure claim.

01:01:14

And we do absolutely know that. And so that's, it's another component of it.

01:01:20

I, I, I'm certain there are people that are selling because they love the product and their focus is not to have sellers underneath them.

01:01:30

But, um, if you are in communication with the higher ups of the

01:01:36

MLM, they will be wanting you to be recruiting people. Yes. The whole system collapses if you're not recruiting sellers.

01:01:43

Right. There has to be people recruiting sellers. That that's the difference between a legitimate

01:01:49

MLM and a pyramid scheme because a pyramid scheme, it's not about the product. There may be a physical product, but no one's making money actually off the product.

01:01:58

They're making money off of recruiting people. So now you're in the business of people selling. So the product gets, keeps the eyes off of what's actually going on with the legitimate pyramid.

01:02:08

I'd say that's where the biblical issue is. Yeah. That's how I made my $83 was that people, people had signed up underneath me, but I had had,

01:02:18

I think like it was like two people signed up underneath me. Like that was, that was it. And I didn't even ask for that to happen, but that's exactly what happened was that I had recruited sellers on accident.

01:02:31

Yeah. And then also in the documentary, uh, Lula Rich, which is about the company Lula Roe is that someone in the middle, one of the main top ambassadors, one of the top earners, when she actually looked at the amount of product that she sold, these leggings and other things like in the

01:02:46

Lula Roe. And then you look at the actual expenditures, she basically had broken even. However, where she got ahead was all these bonuses that she got from recruiting.

01:02:56

So that's the only way that she really made money. Wasn't this product. It was the amount of people you brought in.

01:03:03

So I think it's a matter of like, it is, it is kind of a sticky situation navigate. But, um, while we do this, this is what

01:03:09

I was very fascinated. I kind of been through a couple of podcasts and I had Andrew do some research. And by the way, just so you know, there's a new era of Andrew.

01:03:16

Andrew has always been super sleuthy, Andrew. So time -wise are the, the first episode that Andrew and I ever recorded, uh,

01:03:23

Jeff, I remember when Jeff had the seizure and so he was off and that's where I'm like, okay, what am I going to do? Uh, Andrew jump on.

01:03:29

Let's, we just got, we got to figure out how to do a podcast together. And we didn't even know what we were doing. We had like fifth. I feel like we had like probably,

01:03:35

I don't know, 2025 like audio clips. Cause we were, I was so afraid to talk about, let me play this clip in that clip.

01:03:41

But Andrew did a ton of, ton of research on, uh, Jim Jones. And I think at one point he said, uh, he's like,

01:03:48

I'm here, the background sleuth. And so he kind of gave himself the name sleuth and then he became super, super sleuth

01:03:54

Andrew. But there's a new era where Andrew, you utilize chat GPT, which, and also you're using

01:04:01

AI to help with your research. And so now you're, you're, you're a, you're a mixture of like man and machine.

01:04:08

So my new nickname, you're kind of like cyborg sleuth, Andrew cyborg. Yeah. Cause all of a sudden now it's like the research you're getting to me is so much more in such a short amount of time, which is also good.

01:04:19

Cause now you have, you have four kids and I have one on the way. So it's like, we got to just really compartmentalize our time.

01:04:26

So, but, um, You got to preface that though with chat GPT, GPT is wrong a lot as well. So you've got to double check.

01:04:33

You mean people don't have like six fingers, six, seven fingers by what standard? Yeah. But Andrew, you did some research.

01:04:41

Tell me, what did you find about the origins of MLM and how it started? Cause this is what really kind of go into where some of a lot of what we're going to talk about in the rest of our conversation.

01:04:50

Yeah. I think that the origin specifically of like the business market form of an MLM have been around for so long, so long.

01:04:58

But historically in America, the first MLM founded was by a man named Carl Renborg, who actually was the offspring of Dutch reformed

01:05:07

Calvinist people. And that MLM that he formed was called California vitamin company.

01:05:13

It was founded in 1926, which later became known as neutral light, which later than in 1959 becomes known as Amway.

01:05:23

So yeah, that's, that's, that's pretty much the nutshell of the first MLM that's in America.

01:05:30

I know. Yeah. It's crazy. And it's funny cause chat GPT at first was telling me this person was Mormon. I'm like, no,

01:05:37

I'm like correcting chat GPT. It's like, there's a lot of other MLM owners that are

01:05:42

Mormon, but not this guy. Right. And so what you do here, all MLMs are

01:05:47

Mormon according to chat GPT. Yeah. Yeah. It can't differentiate. But a lot of what's very interesting is a lot of MLMs now they do operate, we're just as women networking and connecting together.

01:06:00

And so the way that worked and because you had a lot of changes in advertising, initially you had, you know, radio ads, every film they had a radio in their, in their home.

01:06:09

And you think about listening to like a flash Gordon or the news updates, everyone would always listen into the radio and your radio programming.

01:06:15

And then eventually it wasn't until it wasn't even until like the mid fifties where half of America had a television set in their home.

01:06:22

So you'd either have radio advertising, you would have television advertising, but even a lot of times you would have those like door to door, those door to door salesmen.

01:06:32

You think of the show Mad Men, like that Jon Hamm, patriarchal era where all the women are, you know, back at the house, like making the, making their man a sandwich while he's out, you know, winning the goods.

01:06:42

But a lot of times they, you know, I think a lot of advertising companies, they realize that no, that the women is actually, even though it still was, you call it very strong patriarchal society then is that a lot of them realize, no, we need to find a way to kind of get to the women in a way to where we can sell our products to them.

01:07:04

But through women talking to each other, because not only that, you had everyone live in very close proximity to each other.

01:07:11

So your network would have been like the women in your neighborhood. And all of them at that time, the majority of them are staying home.

01:07:16

And so a lot of them will get together, they'll talk throughout the day. So I think what happened is that a lot of these advertising agencies saying, hey, there's a marketplace that is going to be very different from if we have a traveling vacuum salesman that's going door to door to door to door, especially if he's knocking on the door when the husband isn't home, he's the decision.

01:07:36

Let me, I got to talk to my husband and there's like this kind of gateway of like, before I can actually sell this vacuum where if you can make these women at home, independent distributors, whether it's makeup or anything else, they're talking to their girlfriends.

01:07:51

It's a lot more organic. So I think that's really where you see the evolvement of a lot of other companies during the 1940s and 1950s.

01:07:59

I think that was the one podcast that we had in that thread group that was shutting up. It makes a lot of sense.

01:08:06

Yeah. This was also, you have to keep in mind too, there was a time, there was a shift where it was more acceptable and more affordable for women to start taking on convenience appliances, where at one point they would have had to do more things by hand or the machines would have been like manually run or whatever that may be.

01:08:29

And then at a certain point it was more affordable to actually own appliances that could do the work for you, but also just became popular.

01:08:39

How do I know my husband's taking care of me? Well, he bought me a dishwasher.

01:08:45

That's how I know he cares because he wants me to not have to wash all my dishes by hand.

01:08:52

For women at the time, that was the equivalent of having a fancy car pull up into the driveway.

01:09:01

It was a status thing. I think that element still runs through as a theme.

01:09:15

You're on the cutting edge. I know about this nutritional product that not everyone knows about. There is sort of like a prestige involved in a way.

01:09:25

Yeah. I think there's also when it comes to, when you look at the way that network marketing a lot of times with how they brand a specific product, you come to believe if you're distributing this product that the only good vitamin

01:09:42

C is the Herbalife vitamin C or this one and all of a sudden...

01:09:47

Because it's been formulated and packaged in such a way that X and Y and Z has been extracted and, oh yeah, that's in every...

01:09:53

I mean... That's in every... The supplement industry in general, there's a reason they call it an industry because they really are trying to sell you health.

01:10:03

So I feel like, I mean, buyer beware when it comes to MLM supplements, but also just in general...

01:10:10

Like any supplement ever? Yeah. This isn't related to MLM. There is an aspect of branding where it's like you have to really think through because there are people...

01:10:20

The Bible does talk about unjust weights and measures and you can see that come to you from any angle.

01:10:28

Oh, for sure. Yeah. So Andrew, why don't you do this? Because you talked a second ago about the paper you went through.

01:10:35

So we're also talking about, okay, how can MLMs be cultures? Like I said, I think that there are great people out there.

01:10:42

There are products that really help and are a blessing to people. There are ones where even people have been blessed financially.

01:10:48

I think even a lot of people I've met who have been very successful in that world, like they're very kind, very generous people, and they're also very, very giving.

01:10:57

I'll just say that off the get -go, but that doesn't mean I could... And like I said, even with how that has helped and blessed my family's life,

01:11:04

I can't turn a blind eye to things that are the problematic side of this whole situation, which is regardless of where you stand, you should take a look at both sides.

01:11:12

But Andrew, what were some of the areas in your research in this paper, I mean, your cyber sleuth abilities of areas in which...

01:11:21

What are some of the other kind of the dark side of the history of MLMs and where it has gone cult -like and sometimes where they got in trouble, certain companies got in trouble with the

01:11:28

FTC? What did that look like? Even though this doesn't represent it as a whole, we can't turn a blind eye to it.

01:11:34

Yeah. So I'll try to say it this way. I think the general worry that we should have with certain

01:11:42

MLMs is that a lot of them are based off of cults of personality, right? A certain person with a certain invention, with a certain look, with a certain feel.

01:11:51

And the people who essentially sometimes buy into what is going on will adopt the same type of characteristics, right?

01:11:59

Of the individual or the corporation will get that type of atmosphere. And I'm going to be honest, like I worked at State Farm for,

01:12:04

I think it was like six or seven years and even regular corporations do this, right?

01:12:10

Like during my orientation at State Farm for four weeks, I heard videos of Ed Rust, who was the

01:12:15

CEO of the company at that time, constantly talking, constantly talking, trying to get me to adapt to the same type of mindset as him when working in the company.

01:12:23

But the thing is though within a pyramid scheme is there's not a lot of checks and balances, right? Look at a pyramid. It's not, you know, it gets smaller the closer you get to the top.

01:12:32

So essentially what can happen is bad business practices or there's not enough oversight within the building or whatever the corporation to stop certain things from happening.

01:12:43

I mean, you can look it up for yourself. You can look up Amway's lawsuit allegations, Lula Rose, you can look up Young Living, all of them are super similar.

01:12:52

But what it always comes down to, at least within the United States of America is whether or not it's a pyramid scheme or a legitimate

01:12:58

MLM. But I think it's important to understand first that the cult of personality is not just something that people who are interested in MLMs fall for, but it happens within corporate

01:13:10

America today. Like it's just a reality. You can't work at any major corporation in the United States of America without getting certain things shoved down your throat.

01:13:18

You know, you got to adopt a certain standard in order to try to have a habitable place to work at.

01:13:26

I mean, Summer, you worked at Starbucks for a while, right? Uh -huh. Oh yeah. I mean, all of this - What was orientation like there?

01:13:32

All of this is ringing bells. And at Starbucks, I would say, I actually, so I haven't worked at Starbucks since 2014, but I have nothing but good things to say about how they treated their employees at the time.

01:13:46

So, you know, I'm a decade removed at this point, but I worked there, you know,

01:13:52

I had quit, I had worked there for a third of my life. And so a pretty significant amount of time.

01:13:58

And yeah, you are expected, if somebody is going to pay you a paycheck, you're definitely expected to live up to their expectations of you and your job.

01:14:10

And, you know, one reason why I think, at least in my day, a lot of Christians fit in at Starbucks was because you were expected to be hospitable as a person.

01:14:19

You know, it's kind of like when you go to Chick -fil -A, you're expected to be hospitable. Like the Chick -fil -A people, they're supposed to treat you a certain way.

01:14:26

And at Starbucks, you were supposed to treat people a certain way that really lined up with being kind and patient and extra giving and the customer's always right kind of thing.

01:14:36

I don't think that environment exists anymore. That's a different subject. But - My pleasure. Yeah, you know.

01:14:43

And so there's an extent to which I don't have a problem with a company who's giving you a paycheck saying this is your code of conduct.

01:14:53

That's kind of what you're signing up for. But I think the reality with some of the

01:15:00

MLMs that have been busted is that that cult of personality really did start at the top.

01:15:07

And we're talking about people, you know, the founder of Young Living is guilty of like actual crimes in relation to what he's done with health and supplements and wellness.

01:15:19

Like he's a convicted criminal. And so it really does come from the top down.

01:15:26

I mean - I don't want to - because it was the couple. No, I said Young Living. Oh, Young Living. Okay. The guy that founded

01:15:32

Young Living, I think has been convicted of - go look it up. It's crazy. It's a crazy story.

01:15:38

Business Insiders covered it. We're talking about somebody who's convicted criminal.

01:15:46

And I'm pretty sure his company is still flourishing. And a lot of it on the basis of things that people have claimed, like this will cure cancer and things like that.

01:15:59

So yeah, that's very problematic. And again, my warning to women on this topic is just that I think we are much more easily convinced of things than we ought to be.

01:16:16

And especially in faith communities, when you hear someone say, well, this is what happened to me, it's easy to - it's just very easy to be swept up into.

01:16:28

And so that is why you have a duty as a woman to speak truthfully about things.

01:16:35

You have a duty to speak truthfully. And you have a duty to love your friend above recruitment.

01:16:43

Sorry for interrupting your currently scheduled programming. But did you know you can go to apologiestudios .com and become an

01:16:49

All Access member. With All Access membership, you get exclusive content from all of Apology Studios productions, not to mention

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01:17:06

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01:17:11

It keeps the lights on. And we can't also do this without you. So please go to apologiestudios .com

01:17:17

and become an All Access member. Now back to the programming. Yeah. And there's a couple of things

01:17:22

I'll say, like the Kolt -like aspects of MLMs is that - there's a couple of things is that usually, you know, a lot of times certain distributors will they'll focus in on the product and they'll say, oh, there's no selling or that the product sells itself.

01:17:37

And then you kind of realize like, no, you actually do. People need to get to kind of know you.

01:17:43

So it all of a sudden becomes a sort of weird personal development journey where you're sort of becoming this, you know, you have to kind of become your own sort of cult of personality.

01:17:53

And I've seen this happen, a cult of personality that conforms with the brand of that MLM company.

01:18:00

So there's this brand. I never, I was never a part of it. I don't even know if it's around anymore. I think it was called Vysalis and it was, it was a weight loss supplement company.

01:18:09

And I know like everyone, it was like, you didn't, you just knew you, the minute you saw

01:18:15

Facebook, you saw somebody with this specific Facebook post and like, yep, that's it. That's a Vysalis post because they're, they're acting directly in conformity.

01:18:24

It's kind of like, they're given a cult mantra to say, or how I'm now this like girl boss. And now I'm losing this weight.

01:18:29

I'm on this weight loss journey. You just knew. And so then like you had, you had to go with that, but then, you know, you eventually, you know, you end up going to conferences, whether it's a personal development conference or, and I've kind of gone down the road too, because there's ones

01:18:44

I dabbled into and it dabbled in forever ago is that a lot of the personal development world and is that it's labeled with pseudo and it's a gateway to the new age.

01:18:55

So what's in every single and there, you can even look at some of the origins of certain

01:19:01

MLMs where you had different people who are very much into like the law of attraction. You had just a lot of, even like Tony Robbins.

01:19:10

And like, I remember like listening to Tony Robbins, cause I was told by the park organization. I was part of like,

01:19:15

I listened to him, listen to this person, listen to this person. And I had no idea. Like I posted one time a couple of things on Facebook and somebody reached out to me like,

01:19:22

Hey, you really, you posted some like really new age stuff. I'm like, I did. Yeah. I had no idea.

01:19:28

But I, but I think about it. I had no idea. I got, I, but in a sense, like I was being boiled like a frog. And so I think that's an area too, but then what also, when you kind of look, go down the rabbit hole and you look at even people who are the top earners in a lot of these companies, most of them end up being part of something called an ambassador.

01:19:46

Like every MLM almost, they have an ambassador program where you're sort of the official representative. You are the people who go up on stage, who kind of encourage everyone.

01:19:54

And, but you usually, you have to be at every single live event and you have to just abide by certain things.

01:20:01

And a lot of times what people will talk about how MLM gets you all this freedom and lifestyle, but honestly it is, you end up a lot of times being owned where you're pre and I know people personally from a long, long time ago who said like, we were preaching.

01:20:16

They said we were preaching the dream, but living the nightmare where it was just hours upon hours of having to recruit all these people because you had all these people going out the back door because the people in the bottom hardly made any money.

01:20:29

And there's a lot of times where sometimes you might have a top earner who's in your downline organization. All of a sudden they decide to switch companies.

01:20:36

So, you know, too, like bouncing around from like health and supplement, these companies that happens all the time.

01:20:42

So what happens when you're getting an income and say you're even a top earner earning like $20 ,000 a month and all of a sudden somebody in your organization just decides to leave and with that goes your home downline, your income just cut gets cut in half.

01:20:56

What do you do? And then a lot of times what you end up seeing is that the people who leave the, all of a sudden they have issues with a company.

01:21:03

It almost becomes like, it seems like something out of Scientology where the company turns against them, they get terminated and they just get completely burned out and spit out the other end.

01:21:13

So there is a dark side of this that is just, it's a danger. But like I said, there's a lot of pseudo new age in this because you just the whole process of becoming a top earner.

01:21:25

Now you do have to become the sort of cult of personality or a girl boss. And there's times where I've even looked like side by side with somebody who's like branding themselves as the

01:21:36

MLM top earner and somebody who's a practitioner of the new age. And it's basically, it's identical except, hey,

01:21:45

I'm a girl boss who sells this product versus, hey, I'm the girl boss who is, I'm becoming my own goddess.

01:21:51

Like it's hard to separate, distinct those two, but it's definitely is a dangerous rabbit hole for sure. Well, the growth of the

01:21:57

MLM movement in the eighties and nineties is based on something called the human potential movement, which was just a load of new age garbage.

01:22:08

You're not really reaching your potential if you're not earning these numbers. And it's the law of attraction, essentially.

01:22:15

It was like, you're going to attract this money to you by attracting people to you. And so, yeah, there have definitely been a lot of very pagan new age ideas attached to MLMs.

01:22:28

And those would be genuine pyramid schemes, although they call them an airplane game in the eighties and the nineties.

01:22:34

You're imagine you're the captain of the airplane and you have these people in the airplane with you behind you and that's your seller team, that's your distribution team.

01:22:43

And the more people you have on the airplane, the more quickly you can move up to become the captain of the next airplane.

01:22:49

And this was all based on the law of attraction. And again, it wasn't really the product that you were selling.

01:22:54

It was everybody. If everybody behind you puts in 5 ,000 towards you, then they, anyway, it's obviously a scheme that is a kind of scheme that a

01:23:04

Christian cannot participate in. Right. And then I think about, and at one time

01:23:09

I was at this live event and there was a guy on stage and he basically was talking about how if you just follow these steps and you do this, this, this, and this, and this is the things you're supposed to do to be a top earner in this company.

01:23:21

He says, you'll be able to finally learn how to bend the universe to your will. Okay. So honestly, when

01:23:28

I, when I kind of went down to claim, right. So I grew up in a, you know, a Christian household.

01:23:33

I mean, you kind of knew you, you knew my parents and you came to my house along like forever, like eight eons and eons ago.

01:23:39

And we had R .C. Sproul books and all this theology books and that's what we were raised in. I mean, it was, there's areas in which, like I said, the

01:23:46

MLM was a, was a blessing because it, it helped, you know, our health and, and longevity and all that sort of stuff.

01:23:53

But, um, it's, I learned a lot of the new age stuff. Like I was citing and kind of thinking kind of a little bit new age -ish just because of the fact that I kind of delved into that world.

01:24:07

I kind of bought the idea like, Hey, maybe I can sort of bend the universe to my will, but maybe that's, maybe that literally means like to love the

01:24:14

Lord, my God, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, soul, mind, and strength. So I was actually blending in like scripture and new age stuff, like as a

01:24:21

Christian because of that. So I think honestly, even if you are in this, and I would say too, like if you're in this industry, like you need to be salt and light wherever you're at.

01:24:32

But even if you're in this industry, you believe in the business model, you believe in the product, you need to really think with discernment because there's a lot of this new age stuff that you just, you kind of usually are, sometimes you think at face value, but you can start believing some really weird stuff very quickly.

01:24:49

Well, and just check what you believe about the product. Cause I do think the way that the MLM will talk about a product will have you thinking more highly of what this product can do for you than it actually can.

01:25:01

So, you know, I've heard Christian women say like, yeah, you know, my kid was having an outburst today, but like,

01:25:07

I forgot to put the lavender on him this morning, you know, because you've heard so many times that lavender is calming.

01:25:14

Lavender is calming. Lavender is calming. And you know what? Lavender smells really nice. And it does smell very calming.

01:25:21

But if you start seeing your kids sin issues as a lack of using this product, um, you've left the reservation in terms of like where it's safe to be where it's like within scripture, like by what standard is your children, you know, your children have anger issues that you have been treating with, you know, probiotics or lavender oils or whatever.

01:25:49

And again, Joy and I talk about this all the time. Yeah. Sometimes when you're a grumpy person, you might just need a nap, but, but what

01:25:55

I'm saying is how you're talking about it is wrong. Your child isn't having anger outbursts because you didn't use lavender this morning.

01:26:04

That's not the actual problem. And once you become a part of that world, you can start to think that way.

01:26:12

Like, wow, I'm being X because I haven't used this product. That is how

01:26:17

MLMs and many companies outside of MLMs as well tend to talk about their products.

01:26:23

And so as Christians, you need to make sure you fortify yourself and you're not susceptible to that kind of thinking.

01:26:31

And where, where are you putting your hope? Are you putting your hope for your mood on the nap?

01:26:36

You missed on the probiotic. You didn't take on the lavender. You didn't use whatever else it is.

01:26:42

The question is like, where are you putting your hope? And if you spend a lot of time selling a certain product, you know, you just need to be mindful about how you talk about it.

01:26:52

Yeah, no. And I think one other thing as well too, because I mean, you've always have only, you've dealt with self -care a little bit, the whole self -care thing on sheologians.

01:27:01

And I think that this is an area, another area, I think the dark side or the dangers, you can kind of give me your thoughts is that a big part of what is told, and this is told on stage and multiple different organizations and MLMs that you need to, you've got this dream, you've got this vision, but you, you only need to be with people who are fully aligned with your vision to be a top earner in this company.

01:27:28

So what you end up doing is that means you need to, anybody who kind of thinks negatively of you or your aspirations, like those, that's a toxic person and you need to cut them out of your life.

01:27:40

And there might be sometimes where someone's like, like legitimate, Hey, you spent $10 ,000 on this thing.

01:27:46

Like you just spent, and here's the thing too, a lot of times people who are brand new, you're told go to the live event.

01:27:52

And a lot of these are just, it's very emotionalized, a bunch of lights. And you saw like the room service.

01:27:59

Yeah. It's a Hillsong service. It's very emotionalized, but you think about money that's spent on tickets, money that's spent for the hotel, money that's spent on food for cocktails.

01:28:08

When you're the little hobnobbing that you ended up with several thousand dollars just to go to this event, to get hyped up.

01:28:14

And who knows, you might, that might help you in your business. I mean, a lot of there's not, it isn't just network marketing where that sort of like conventions happen, but it's so obvious that,

01:28:22

Hey, you're spending a lot of money. Where's the ROI? Oh, you're, you're not aligned.

01:28:28

My dreams, your toxic need to need to cut you off. But even more importantly, and I'll let you all jump in here is that, and I, in the posts that we did, there's a lot of people who said,

01:28:37

Hey, I lost friends. I lost some really close friends just because like, I was happy for them that they wanted to do this thing.

01:28:46

It just wasn't for me. And I got cut off. I lost this friendship and it hurt. Like that's regardless, even if it's not an

01:28:53

MLM, like that's, if you're a Christian, you shouldn't, that's not godly behavior.

01:29:01

Yeah. Well, it's that's idolatry. That's right. That's idolatry. Um, I think just the antidote is just worship

01:29:08

God and keep your head on straight. Right. Just worship God and keep your head on straight. And you know,

01:29:14

I think joy and I talk a lot about, um, we can, we're happy to talk about principles, but joy and I aren't interested in telling, you know, people what they can or can't buy or what they can and can't be a part of.

01:29:27

Like, we're just not interested in doing that. And there's so many things that have to happen at a household level that like, yeah, this is between you and your husband, biblical principle.

01:29:37

You can't lie. You can't defraud people. Um, women are easily deceived, guard your heart, worship

01:29:44

God, not this product. Don't call sin, not sin, call sin, sin. So my challenge to anybody would be, okay, are you, by what standard are you abiding by these principles?

01:29:58

Cause I can't tell, I can't tell, I can't tell you what your daily life looks like. I can't tell you how to spend your money or not, but I do, there is an authority above us that says you can't lie.

01:30:09

You can't bear a false witness. You can't defraud your neighbor. Um, and uh, if that's happening, well, better figure that out.

01:30:22

Yeah, exactly. You better figure that out. Um, and if you are willing to cut off friendships for this product, then

01:30:32

I don't even have to tell you, you've already, you've already gone wrong. You've already gone wrong. Um, and I think,

01:30:38

I think Christians led by the Holy spirit will know that not that Christians can't sin or fail in this way or can't, you know, accidentally whatever, be guilty, um, of doing this.

01:30:49

Um, but I can say biblically that that's wrong. Um, and I have no problem saying that because I think scripture says that.

01:30:57

So who are you worshiping? What are you worshiping? Um, what are you putting your hope and your trust in? And if you want to tell me, go ahead and check all these boxes by being in this

01:31:07

MLM or by leaving this MLM, that's not up for me to, you know, I tend to have a pretty black and white.

01:31:13

I do have a black and white opinion on all this, but I, I'm not here to check the boxes for you.

01:31:19

Yeah. Yeah. And I would, I would trust that too. And, uh, yeah, I think it's just self -government. Like you need to just say, like, you need to take this information of like, you're in this industry.

01:31:27

Let's think with nothing. You think also like test all things and understand like the law of attract, like,

01:31:34

I think I haven't, by now there might have an episode with John Clash and he's in this industry a little bit too, but he's, he's very much, we had a whole episode on the law of attraction.

01:31:42

Like this stuff is so deeply embedded in this industry. So even, you know, even if you're doing like things economically, like in a way that's good and you have a product that's ethical and all that sort of stuff, there's a whole gateway of like new age stuff that just is really there.

01:31:57

But I don't know what, what, what are your, kind of some of your thoughts, Joy, on this whole, on this whole topic, everything we've talked about so far?

01:32:03

I think we live in one of the most, uh, we live in an amazing time where if you want to start a business, you can, um, and you will have to work and you will have to invest, um, some money.

01:32:22

And I think that creating products and services that solve problems is, it's the basis of our entire economy.

01:32:34

Um, but I think the difference between starting a business and working for yourself is you creating that, um, and you creating the product, you creating the service, uh, and it's yours and you're, it's uniquely yours, um, is different than being sold on a product and then being encouraged to sell other people on it and not just on the product.

01:33:07

That's actually, I'm not even really talking about being sold on the product. I'm talking about selling your new cushy lifestyle to another person.

01:33:18

Um, being sold on selling the product. Right. Yes. Um, and that's, uh, there's, there's also,

01:33:25

I also think that it's okay to go work for someone else and sell their product. And I don't think either of the things

01:33:33

I just said really totally apply economically to an MLM. I think you're talking, you are talking about a different category of a business.

01:33:42

And I think that, uh, that has left room for lots of things to happen to people.

01:33:52

Um, and I don't, I, I don't know, I guess maybe when I started that statement, I wanted it to be an encouragement that you should work.

01:34:00

You should, you can accomplish a lot and you can work really hard and, um, you can build something that you're, uh, that is good objectively and you can make a lot of money.

01:34:13

Um, you can make a livable amount of money. And, uh, I think that some, sometimes what's appealing is that, uh, it almost seems like, like they sell, they sell that you're going to be your own man, right?

01:34:31

Like it is your business, but it's also not, it's their business. Um, I don't know.

01:34:37

I think you just have to be careful about what you're being sold on. Um, you have to be careful, uh, what you're signing up for and just know that there is a, in terms of, in terms of economics, there is a really good profitable way to start your own business.

01:34:55

And we probably live in a time where that's easier than anything. But if you're, if you're joining a business to cut corners and to make money really fast and, um, because you're sort of like vibing on this buzz that you experienced in a sales party, um, that's, that, that is a really good way for your business to not be successful because it's very emotion driven.

01:35:25

And, um, I don't know. I just think it's a, I think there, I think there is a shared responsibility. I think there is a deception happening and I think there are people that are willing to deceive themselves because everybody wants to be rich quick.

01:35:37

And I think that while Christians are responsible to not deceive others, it's also a responsibility to not be deceived.

01:35:45

And if things sound too good to be true and our alarm bells are going off, you should, you should acknowledge that and be like, okay, yeah, no, thank you.

01:35:55

Pete. Well, yeah. Well, Andrew, you can, I want you to jumping at your thoughts, but I think this is also just a principle, like in general, even, even outside of MLMs that you need to,

01:36:04

I guess in some sense, like count the cost as far as what this, all the, you know, you can be very visionary and have this great vision, but you also need to think practically about the infrastructure as well too.

01:36:16

And even like one of my favorite television shows is a Kitchen Nightmares with a Gordon Ramsey, where especially the

01:36:23

British, the British, especially the British version. It's great.

01:36:28

It's just like, who, who doesn't like to see just a train or like a train, like that train's going to derail it.

01:36:33

Let's, I can't take my eyes off of it. But a lot of times, you know, you see somebody there and it's,

01:36:39

I love the, especially the British version, just because that's, you see that Gordon is actually giving some like tough love.

01:36:45

Like he really wants these people. It's not as much as the, you know, the commercialized Hell's Kitchen, you know, crazy personality of Gordon.

01:36:53

Like he generally cares for these people. He understands. He wants them to be successful. Yeah. So a lot of these people have this very grandiose idea.

01:36:59

Hey, I want to cook food. I want to have this restaurant, but they're not thinking practically about, okay, how much does my, how much does it, does it cost to have my menu out every single time?

01:37:09

How much, how much does it take to pay my staff? How do I keep the morale going? There's so many working components as myself, even who's worked in food before.

01:37:18

It's a, even in something that's like. Do you like cooking food or do you actually want to be a restaurant manager? Right. Because it's two different things.

01:37:24

Yeah. So a lot of times people go in, they don't realize those things. And I think we can, we can jump into any venture, not realizing the infrastructure.

01:37:33

And I think a lot of times people were, you kind of jumped in, like you said at the very beginning, and you didn't really even know what you're doing.

01:37:41

Like, Hey, this is helping my kid. And this is just great. And there are a lot of times people are very, they're, they're going in for the wrong reasons.

01:37:48

They're not even thinking from an inventory versus, you know, profit cost, you know, profit loss, all those sorts of things.

01:37:55

So all of a sudden it gets to their taxes and they're like. They're offering to do a part of what they're selling is that they will create this business for you and then give it to you.

01:38:04

And it's already this like functioning, flourishing. Established. And it's just, that's just not what it takes to operate a business.

01:38:11

And I mean, even just case in point, what you said, like the amount of money that went into me making $83.

01:38:20

And so there is a way, there is a way to delude yourself into thinking like, just like there, this happens in many ways.

01:38:27

You know, you see a product that you don't need, that's on sale and you're like, Oh, I'm going to buy it because I'm saving money.

01:38:33

And it's like, but if you don't need it, you're not actually saving money. You're spending dollars on that thing that was once $160.

01:38:42

And so I think that you just, you have to be, you have to be aware of the lifestyle of the business.

01:38:51

And I guess more of what I'm trying to say is that if you want to start something, you should start something and it will be very hard and it will take money to do it.

01:39:01

But you can do it on your own if you really want to. If you really want to for 10 years and you never do anything,

01:39:10

I will suggest you don't want to. But that's all I'm saying is it is not a, it's not a like, it's not a, this expedient route to owning your own business.

01:39:22

And I think Christians owning our own businesses is a really good thing that we should have more and more and more of, and we should have rich Christians.

01:39:31

We should absolutely. But yeah, it's not a, I think we like,

01:39:38

I, yeah, I'm the, I really have a problem with the allure of that.

01:39:44

But I, like I said, there's a shared responsibility. The person who sells it is guilty of deception and the person who buys it is guilty of deception.

01:39:52

Being deceived. Yeah. Like in certain cases. And so you're, you, you as the Christian are responsible on whichever side of the fence you're on.

01:40:02

You're responsible to be discerning and to not be deceived and you're responsible to not be deceiving others.

01:40:08

And so either way you're responsible. Yeah. And what are some of your thoughts here?

01:40:14

I see, I see your, the wheels in your head turning virtually, uh, you know, we're there in Utah. The cyborg wheels.

01:40:21

The cyborg wheels. The gears, the microchip. Yeah, I got some electric, yeah, the electrical impulses are flowing through my microchip sensors right now.

01:40:29

No, I don't think I can say anything better than, than really what's been said. Uh, it's, it's true, man. If you, if you're a

01:40:34

Christian and you're involved in something like this, I just suggest, just take a step back, uh, look at your life through the lens of scripture.

01:40:40

And if there's things that you've done that need to be repented of, repent of those things, you know, uh, do not look at material possessions as something that can free you, uh, from certain situations.

01:40:51

I mean, they can in some senses, but if it's built, if your freedom's built upon the backs of enslaving other individuals, uh, it's not a good freedom to have.

01:40:59

Uh, your true freedom should be in Christ. Uh, first and foremost, get rich quick schemes.

01:41:04

Don't really ever do it for anybody unless someone else is suffering. Right. And, uh, and a

01:41:09

Christian wants to love God first so that they can accurately love their neighbor, right? Like Jesus summarizes the full of the law and that love

01:41:16

God, love neighbor. So if you're lacking in loving your neighbor, in some sense, that means your relationship with God is lacking in some sense as well.

01:41:23

And you're looking like summer said to some form of idolatry to satisfy that. So just take a look back at your life and, uh, whatever you're involved in and try not to deceive others and don't be deceived yourself.

01:41:34

I mean, I think that those are great principles. And even like I said, even if you're in this industry and let's say like you're an ambassador and like you're in this click and you're, you're a top earner and all those sorts of things, it's actually like, just be calm.

01:41:44

Like if you can honestly in your own conscious believe that, you know, what's being sold is, is as ethical and it's good and actually helps people's lives is a good thing.

01:41:53

Like great, more power to you. You know, just, I would say, cause I think that's the one thing too, is that in that document in the

01:41:59

Lula rich is that a lot of the people who are the top earners, they were like selling the dream, but living this nightmare where they are like exhausted, burnt out.

01:42:08

Like it's if like a L a good leader is always like, you know, exactly like where they're at.

01:42:14

They're, they're, they're not, they don't cut corners. They tell it like it is. That's what we all look to and aspire to.

01:42:20

So I think I would just say for the, let them know what it's really like to be an ambassador and tell them like, just be on, make sure you're just telling the truth.

01:42:30

And if your company is not comfortable with you telling the truth, well, it's maybe it's not the best place to be because ultimately this is not, this is just one of those issues.

01:42:40

I think why it's so polarizing is because people, I'll wrap it up here on this, at least for myself, is that people want like us to take a side, like whose team are we on?

01:42:49

Like, like bad out MLM say, don't align yourself. Don't be a part of it.

01:42:55

Don't use the products. Like that's what people want. Dude, I'm on the Lord's team. I don't care about none of that.

01:43:01

I don't care about none of that. And I don't like, we don't have, we don't have the bandwidth to, so see, this is how

01:43:11

I started putting it on Sheologians. Like the things that I say on Sheologians, I would prefer you use them to look at yourself instead of looking at everyone else.

01:43:21

And, and that's who I'm talking to. When I generated all the thoughts I have on MLMs, I'm looking at myself.

01:43:29

I'm not trying to look at everyone else and determine who I need to go talk to.

01:43:35

And, you know, that's just not, that's not my take on it. Now, are there times when you have to say things to your friends?

01:43:43

Of course, of course, but that is not, that's not why I did this episode today.

01:43:49

I am much more of a fan of you looking at you before other people.

01:43:56

Look at you and yeah, I don't, when you bring up a team, it's like, I don't,

01:44:01

I don't ever want to be on a team outside of this lives up to scripture.

01:44:09

Like this lives up to both general and special revelation. So if I'm going to comment on what it means to be a woman, it either has to be from the

01:44:18

Bible or from God's revealed will in nature. Like these are the two places.

01:44:23

Right. And like, maybe this doesn't seem to fit, but let's just like, why am I not a vegetarian?

01:44:29

Cause God gave us animals to eat. Like, it's just that it's for me, it's just like that it's right there in the text.

01:44:35

Like I don't, it's in the text. So you can't defraud your neighbor.

01:44:41

It's in the text. Like I don't need, and it's like, if you're looking at me and you're like, well, I'm not defrauding my neighbor.

01:44:46

Well, I don't have anything to say then. And our assumption, our assumption should be like to the people that we're sitting in pews with, unless we really know otherwise explicitly, our assumption should be that they're also on that Bible team.

01:45:04

Yes. If you're walking into church with them and they have are involved with an

01:45:10

MLM, like it is, unless they have explicitly said like, I lie to my customers, then your assumption is gracious.

01:45:19

And they have done the work to determine them and their husband have worked to determine that what they're doing is okay.

01:45:27

And you know what? Sometimes people change their minds and it's not up to you to sure they change them faster than God.

01:45:33

Right. And yeah. So in other words where I think you said it perfectly is that this, this falls under the jurisdiction of self -government.

01:45:41

So I don't want to use our collaboration as a club to wield over like one side or the other.

01:45:46

Yeah. I think you just need to look at this whole thing holistically, which I think we've done. And hopefully you'll have some guiding general principles about how to think all of this.

01:45:55

Yeah. Well, and yes, self -government, but obviously where the government has said, this company is lying and this is not true.

01:46:02

That's something to consider. But again, that's something that you need to take the initiative to be aware of.

01:46:09

Right. And again, so there is always self -government in this conversation. And it makes sense why there are

01:46:15

MLMs that leave a bad taste in your mouth. It makes sense. Like I totally get it. You mean if their products taste bad?

01:46:22

Also that. Tastes terrible. Have you ever tried to eat a LuLaRoe legging? Because they say they're like soft as butter, but I can tell you right now.

01:46:32

They did not spread well. I would not blend that in with my coffee in the morning. They're actually not buttery. Bulletproof LuLaRoe.

01:46:38

LuLaRoe's lying about the butter flavor in their pants. That's all

01:46:43

I have to say. Yeah. Well, this has been, this is actually our first ever collab about just one beginning to end collaboration.

01:46:52

No one made it this far. Are you still here? It took you four days. Yeah. You said you wanted an

01:46:57

MLM episode and you got it. You got it. Well, this is also the next, if we do a collaboration, you both are about to jump into the era that Andrew and I jumped into.

01:47:10

I have no idea what you're talking about. Well, Andrew's my virtual co -host. No, I don't acknowledge. She is not addressing the fact that I'm moving.

01:47:17

Oh, she's not? No. Okay. No. Well. I don't know what you're talking about. That is a

01:47:23

May -Summer problem. And since it is currently April, I don't know what you're talking about.

01:47:31

Okay. Not sure. Are you sort of like some of the seasons, some are you or? Not like May. Until May, I don't have this problem actually.

01:47:40

Joy moving is not an issue. It's not May. May -Summer is a different person who will be fielding emotions.

01:47:49

I live in the moment, Jerry. So I don't know what, I don't live in the past. I don't live in the future.

01:47:54

I live in this moment. Okay. Okay. Well, I'll live in my own moment here then.

01:48:00

Yeah. You enjoy this moment. I will. I'll enjoy it. I'm not actually going to participate in it. Yeah. But honestly,

01:48:08

I think I said this earlier is that joy, it's, I know,

01:48:14

I was thinking, I was like talking with Candy at the end of the day about it. And Candy was like, Jerry, you getting teary -eyed? I was like, no, no, no.

01:48:20

My wife was like, yeah, you are a little bit. But honestly, like do you think of like 2009 when we first hung out, do you think about even the circumstances into like how we met and all we've been through with different small groups and different churches, the ups and downs with different friendships.

01:48:36

But, and here we are, like the fact that like you're moving, it's like, oh my gosh, like this is, we've known each other like pre all this.

01:48:45

And like, I know I'm a little sad. So this has been a little bit bittersweet, but this has been fun.

01:48:51

But like, it just, yeah. I'm at the part of moving to where you're starting to hit your like lasts.

01:49:00

But, you know, I think I, to try to, well, perhaps

01:49:08

I'm staying detached for my own good as well, just like summer. But I think that not to get too like, but, you know, it gives you a perspective to think about, like, do you actually believe in eternity?

01:49:25

Do you believe that like, you will be with like people forever?

01:49:31

Forever. Yeah. And so, I believe that. And this has given, this has been a huge opportunity for me to understand that.

01:49:39

I do mean that when I say that, it's not just like a little thing you say, like, you know, like when you say to the person, you're like, let's hang out soon.

01:49:47

And it's like, it's never going to work. It's never going to happen. Yeah. That's not how I'll see you in eternity is that's like a real true thing, you know.

01:49:56

But you could go 10 ,000 years without seeing someone technically. Right. I mean, yeah. In eternity.

01:50:02

Yeah. There's going to be a lot of us there, but we'll have a lot of time. But it wouldn't be years because the sun. I don't know how it's all going to happen.

01:50:09

Are we all going to be like, oh, hey, it's been like 5 ,000 years since I've seen you.

01:50:15

Or it's going to be like, what have you been up to? It's going to be like Narnia, where all of a sudden, like I'm talking to you for five minutes and I come back and talk to someone else in heaven.

01:50:21

It's like, oh, it's been 15 ,000 years. I could have sworn it was five minutes. So the question is how long.

01:50:27

That's how this episode is felt for you all. I was going to say some people are like, I already get it. I already experienced that time in this episode.

01:50:36

So Joy, I have a question for you. Then I just realized something. I'm like, oh my goodness. So my question is, is there spacing out in heaven?

01:50:43

And if I space out in heaven, how long. How much time are you losing? How much time would

01:50:49

I lose? Jerry spaces out in eternity. It's going to be a million years. No, that can't happen.

01:50:57

A million years of your own thoughts. No, that sounds like hell. What you just described was hell.

01:51:03

I'm pretty sure. That's like some sort of Stanley Kubrick film or something. Something horrible. Yeah. Okay. I'm ending it.

01:51:10

No, Jerry, this was a great crossover and it's over and we have to accept that it's over.

01:51:17

If we keep talking, Joy will still move. Just because we've kept going doesn't mean the move isn't happening.

01:51:24

Yeah. She gets it. So you can leave us a voicemail at 4704 -650 -475.

01:51:32

We're Sheologians. That's cultish. Yes. I enjoyed this.

01:51:38

This is great. Always a fun time. I'm on my way to Chick -fil -A. And I will really try. I feel like, so how many we made?

01:51:44

Five, six, five. This is our fifth official crossover. So I remember four out of five. Which is great.

01:51:50

At least as far as I know. We did just record this one. So we'll see how long it takes for me to be like, we did

01:51:56

MLM. But I'm doing pretty good, I feel like. Only one that I literally have no memory of.