John Lawler Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. No Compromise Radio ministry, my name is

Mike Abendroth, and I wish I could say I'm in beautiful downtown Burbank Studios today on Buena Vista Street, but I'm in central

Massachusetts. I don't know, it's probably eight degrees out with a little wind chill, and it's going to snow tonight, but it'll look very pretty afterwards.

Every time I look at the snow, I'm thinking about Luther, and he saw the dung pile, and then it was covered by snow in the night, and he used that as a picture for justification.

We're on the inside, we're still sinful, yet we're covered with the perfect, righteous works of Christ Jesus, white as snow.

Well, with that intro, I have a special guest on today, and it's amazing to me to think of the people that I've met throughout the world, literally, because of this little show called

No Compromise Radio. And our guest today is one of those men. I think you're going to be encouraged as you listen to him.

Today on the radio show, we have John Lawler. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, John. Thank you,

Mike, I'm happy to be on. So John, tell us a little bit about how we met. How did that all happen?

Give us some background, I think that's interesting, regarding God's providence. Sure. I think we had a mutual friend that put us in touch together,

I would say, a couple years ago, who was editing some books, and I think you were, at the time, looking for a book editor.

And I had sort of volunteered and said, well, listen, I'm a fan of the show, and I love

Mike's preaching, I listen, and if there's anything I can ever do to help, I'm an attorney, and if there's anything, whether it's legal or just editing,

I'm happy to be of use. And she had put us in touch a couple years ago, and we sort of developed a friendship.

I had the pleasure of meeting you late last year, when you came to Pennsylvania, which was a great moment.

And I think we've just corresponded over the last couple years via email,

I have questions, you have some legal questions, and a friendship was born, so it's been great.

Yes, but John, the problem is, when I call you, I can hear that clock ticking in the background for my legal questions.

When you call me with theology, it's just all grace. How does that work? Yeah, well, that's just the way it works, but no bill has gone out yet,

Mike, so you're screwing up quite a balance. That's exactly right. John, when it comes to being a lawyer, and then a

Christian as well, and of course you're a Christian before you're a lawyer, is there anything in particular you have to balance as a lawyer,

Christian, Christian lawyer, that might be insightful for some of our listeners? Because I'm sure we have truck driver

Christians and Christian, you know, homeschool moms and other things. Being a lawyer, is there a particular challenge that you go through, and if you do, how do you approach that biblically?

Well, I think each job imposes its own set of challenges, whether you're a mom homeschooling and raising her children, or you're a teacher or you're a truck driver like you referenced, there are different things that you're going to have to deal with, and I think if you find yourself struggling with something that's unavoidable in your job, you probably need to get another job.

I know that some lawyers, I work for a large transportation company, and so this is no longer part of my practice, but many lawyers have to bill, usually in six minute intervals, and I had to do that for six and a half years when

I was in a law firm as a litigation attorney, and there can be a temptation to, hey,

I need to make 2 ,000 hours a year, I've got to make 40 hours this week, and so there's a temptation, I think, by some lawyers, and I've talked to some lawyers about this and prayed about this, to overbill and to put down more than they did because they'd like to go home and see their families, and I don't think that's unique to lawyers.

I think that could apply to accountants, it could apply to mechanics, it could apply to anyone. I think it's

Colossians 3 .23 that says, whatever you do, work heartily as for the Lord and not for men.

So I think there's a way to do your job with integrity, and if you can't, then maybe it's not the job for you.

John, as I'm just listening to you talk and thinking about your approach to ministry, I know being a lawyer must be demanding, full -time job plus.

Tell me your philosophy regarding ministry in the local church, and of course it's a leading question, and I know you serve and want to teach and minister and have your family involved in the church.

What's your strategy for that? Because I think there's a lot of people who listen, who certainly do serve, and others that need to be motivated to serve, even though they're tired, they're exhausted, they have demanding jobs.

I appreciate the fact that you want to serve the Lord Jesus, even though you've got full -time responsibilities and a big family.

Yeah, so I have four children, I work full -time, and my wife is now working in the school where my children go.

So we're both pretty busy, kids' activities and sports and all of that. So I don't know if I have a particular philosophy, but I look for openings, and I think if you don't have a lot of time for prep,

I know some of my friends, they're moving, they're stacking chairs, they're greeting people, they're doing something to give back.

I do like teaching, and so one of the things that I've looked for is opportunities to do that, whether it's the men's ministry where I speak,

I speak to our college -aged kids, really 18 and up, but really a college -aged ministry.

We have a small group where I can teach, and I've done our Good Friday service the last three years, and this will be year four.

So I think for me, I look for opportunities to do what I enjoy to do, and I think if you enjoy it, you'll really make time for it.

But usually there's something, even if you don't have a lot of time, that you can do and give back. Talking today to John Lawlor.

Thanks, John, for being on the show. I personally don't really like poetry that much, at least in my past,

I didn't really know much about poetry, and I'm drawn to maybe scientific type of things, and so therefore even when it comes to Bible study,

I like Romans, you know, and it's this thoughtful, logical, persuasive, lawyer -like book, as it were.

He's prosecuting this case against these people that have objections, etc. What about you?

When it comes to books, I assume you do the same thing that I do. Do you have any strategy or background for when it comes to reading other genre, like,

I don't know, wisdom literature and poetry and stuff like that? What are your thoughts? I read a variety of different things.

So like you, I actually do like Romans, it's interesting that you brought that up, and I view it the same way, building that case.

And so when I look at it, and I see it, you know, Chapter 1, it's unbelief and sin separating us from God, and then

I get to 2, and wow, I'm no different, and I'm condemned by law, and 3, it's even broader than that, all the world is guilty, and God will inflict

His wrath on us, and then I move to 4, well, how do we get justified? It's justified by faith, even in the

Old Testament, with Abraham as an example, and then I move to 5, and how we can have peace with God, and so, yeah,

I see that building in Romans as well. With regards to, you know, books of the

Bible, I like Judges, simply because I've spent a lot of time in it.

Because you spend a lot of time with Judges. Well, yeah, and I'm not the same

Judges, hopefully not as bad as some of the Judges I've been reading about in Judges. First Samuel, I enjoy, and then books that are not

Scripture. I just started a book, The Whole Christ, by Sinclair Ferguson, and I think you recommended that on one of your shows, or in one of your messages.

I just started, so I don't have a, I don't know if I can recommend it personally yet. I just finished

The Heart of the Cross by James Montgomery Boyce, and then I read fiction, too, because I enjoy reading, where I don't have to underline.

As an attorney, I read a lot of fine print, and I read it all day long, so sometimes I just enjoy reading a book for the joy of reading, and not so much to take notes and organize.

See, John, you are the quintessential No Compromise radio listener. I'm so thankful that you listen, and you encourage me, because you're talking about Boyce, and you're talking about Romans, and you're talking about the flow of the book, and you just started preaching there.

See, we need a thousand more Johns listening to No Compromise radio.

That's excellent. What about this, John? I get questions regularly from people, and they'll say,

I need a lawyer, and for whatever reason they might need a lawyer. Their first response, if they're a

Christian, tends to be, I need a good Christian lawyer. Now that might be the good question to ask.

Do you think it's a good question to ask? If people need legal help, the Christian people, how do they approach this?

I get the same question as well. So I have two thoughts of that.

I think it depends on what it is you need a lawyer for. If you need a lawyer to mediate a dispute, to sit down with two parties and try to come up with a solution, and you're a believer, and I want counsel, then yeah,

I think it's helpful to have another Christian come alongside and sort of apply biblical principles to your dispute.

If you are sued, or if you have a dispute with someone, or you need a will done,

I don't think it matters if you're a Christian or not. The same way it doesn't matter if my plumber is a

Christian or not. As long as he can get the pipes working, I'm good. So I don't particularly think it's necessary.

I think what some people are concerned about is being charged an exorbitant amount of money, and they want someone who's honest.

So you'd like to think that Christian lawyers operate that way, but a lot of people today call themselves

Christian, and they're not. So I think it's very difficult to tell. It's interesting, John. I don't think it's...

Yeah. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, that's all right. I was just going to say that if I looked in the yellow pages under lawyers and saw a fish symbol,

I don't know if I'd call or not. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what... I mean, they're trying to market to a segment of the population, and I get it, and I'll listen to the

Christian radio station, there's law firms that advertise on there and call themselves Christian lawyers, and that's great.

But there isn't a body of law that's distinct for Christians and non -Christians. You want someone who's knowledgeable. I have some issues with my lower back, unfortunately, and to me, spiritually it matters if they're a

Christian, but as far as their treatment of my back, it doesn't matter to me. I just want the best doctor. Talking to you today,

John Lawler. John, I know you mentioned earlier reading books. As a layman, if we can kind of make that bifurcation,

I know Luther said, you know, it's a priesthood of all believers, but as someone who makes their living outside of ministry, what's your strategy for reading books?

Is it recommendations? Is it in preparation for messages that you'll teach? Do you have a plan?

Why is it important for you to read, not just the pastor to read, and then do you have a strategy when it comes to reading?

Well, it's important to read because you need to grow, and if you think you're going to grow sitting there for 20 minutes one day a week, it's just not going to work.

So, for me, I want to read someone who has a perspective that I don't, but also someone that I can trust, and so I start with people that I trust.

John MacArthur, I listen to you. I listen to Jesse Johnson. I'll listen to different pastors, and I'll hear through their sermons or book recommendations of other people they cite in their messages, and sort of hear people that way.

I do read books in preparation for different studies as well, so I'm a little concerned sometimes when

I've never heard of an author or, you know, if I look at the book, a little preview on Amazon or quoting the message or some other translation,

I'm probably going to stay away from that. I just, you know, unless it's the fiction reading without underlining, but no,

I tend to be drawn to people that are conservative, that are more of the MacArthur type as opposed to the

Osteen type. Okay, good. Well, since you just said the message,

I just opened it up to Romans chapter 8 and the message, verse 1. I'm just curious to what it says.

With the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved.

I don't know. That faithful dilemma. It's interesting because Paul is using, in the original language, that's the opposite of justification.

In other words, if you stand justified before God based on the work of another, Christ Jesus, therefore there is the opposite condemnation taken away.

Okay, so no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. That's a little bit different than that faithful dilemma. But anyway, I digress.

But hey, it's my show. This is the ADD Radio. John, years ago when

I started the show, and this is a true story, we used to have those radio channels in the car, and I just thought when it's boring,

I switch the channel. So there's two sports stations here in Boston, and when one gets boring, I just switch it to the other.

Or if it's a talk show and one gets boring, I switch to another. So I thought, one of my strategies is I don't want people to turn that dial.

So anyway, that's just a little behind -the -scenes things. John, I wanted to just tell the listeners something that you did for me a couple years ago when

I was having the radiation and the cancer issues. You got the kids together, and you were lifting up Mr.

Abendroth in prayer, and they all had signs, placards with letters, and it said

Abendroth. And all your kids were holding them over their heads like we're lifting up Mike in prayer.

That was one of the sweetest things that someone has ever done for me. And so A, I thank you for that.

And B, tell the listeners how that came about. Well, I'm going to deflect that a little bit because my wife is very good at that.

If you notice, if I wrote it, you probably wouldn't be able to read the letters. My handwriting is atrocious. But she is very good at that.

I'm blessed to have married a very thoughtful lady, and she thought that would be a nice touch.

And we have sent that to some other people over the years who need prayer. But it's not just something to take a picture of or tweet about.

We actually do pray for you, and we pray for many people who are going through different challenges.

And so I continue to pray for you. So I hope you're feeling well. And it's been a blessing just to be able to pray for you and to let us do that for you.

Well, that was so sweet. I tear up a little bit when I think about it, and when I first got it, it was very emotional for me to receive.

And so thank you to your wife as well and kids. That was great. Tell our listeners a little bit about adoption and your philosophy there and how

Christians can help when it comes to taking in kids. I know you don't view it as this trendy thing that some evangelicals do, but I know that's important for you as you give.

And I guess I've asked you 15 philosophy questions today, so what's your background when it comes to that?

That's okay. And this is all cold, right? I mean, these questions, you're coming at me cold.

So if anyone's listening and thinking this is choreographed, I'm sorry to say that it's done. I know.

I think it's proper for me to say, John, that when you asked me what will the show be like, because I wanted you to be on because I really respect you and appreciate our friendship,

I thought, you know what, we'll just let it flow. And you said, well, I usually prep the witnesses a little bit better,

Mike, than you're prepping me. So hey, it's my show. I have a day job.

That's right. I was waiting for the call from the executive producer or the director or somebody on staff, but no one called to your question.

We've been blessed by adoption. My daughter, she's adopted. She's 13 now.

She was adopted from Guatemala, and she came home when she was about 15, 16 months.

And then my son is adopted from Ghana, Africa. And he came home at three and a half to almost four.

And I'll give you a little bit of a perspective on that. My son is my little guy,

Isaac. He's 10 now, and he's a very good wrestler. And we were at wrestling practice, and I was talking to one of the other dads who were there.

And we're talking, and in the course of the conversation, I don't know this man that well. In fact, I just really spoke to him in depth that night.

And he says, can I ask you something, but I don't want to offend you. And you know this is going to be a real beauty, what comes next.

So I'm listening, and I'm saying, okay, sure, what do you have? And he says, well, how is it that as a white man you think that you can raise a black child?

Now, I could say no one's ever asked me that question before. So I was not offended.

I think it was an honest question, but I did question him a little bit to try to see some of the assumptions that underline that question.

And before you know it, practice had ended, and we were on our separate ways. And I went home thinking, you know,

I didn't give him an adequate answer, and I didn't really give him the gospel. I need to revisit with this man.

So we're a day later at a wrestling tournament, and I see him on the bleachers, and I sit next to him, and we start making small talk.

And I said, you know, I appreciated your question yesterday, and I wanted to give you an answer.

And he says, oh, okay, and didn't mean to offend you. I said, no, no, no, you didn't. But Isaac's problem is not that he is an

African -American boy in a white family. His problem is the same as my problem, and it's the same as your problem, and that he's a sinner that's separated from God.

And, you know, as I'm talking to him, he kind of was surprised about that, and he said to me, well, when he grows up,

I'm sure he'll grow up into a nice young man. And I wanted to address the assumptions again in his question, because I said, well, listen, he's a nice boy now, and nice really has nothing to do with it.

I said, imagine yourself, and you know I'm a lawyer, and he said yes. And I said, well, imagine yourself in a courtroom, and you're convicted of a crime, and you say to the judge, well, that was a long time ago.

I'm nice now. He's not going to let you go. And if you say that you're so nice, you've done more good than bad, he's still not going to let you go.

And even if you're sorry for what you've done, a crime's still been committed, and he's still not going to let you go.

And so Isaac, because of his sin and because of my sin and because of your sin, is separated from God, and you need a

Savior. And I asked him what he's going to say when he stands before God guilty of his sin, and, you know, he just kind of looked at me.

I think he's wondering what he stepped into. But he, you know, he didn't accept

Christ in that conversation, but I walked away knowing that he got a full, clear presentation of what the gospel is.

And I think that whether God uses that seed to convict this man and convert him is maybe something

I'll never see or maybe will never happen, but we're not called to do that part. We're called to preach the message and preach the truth.

Sorry, that's a long -winded explanation about adoption. It was just something that happened recently, you know, when people see us and we're a diverse family.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up, John, because you and I had talked about that a couple weeks ago when it happened and we were strategizing on evangelism and how to go about it.

I'm so happy that you evangelized him and went back and spoke to him. It's one of those things where sometimes

I'll see someone and think, you know, if this guy tried to fight me, I think I could take him. My only problem is if he's a black belt in something, even though he's thin,

I'm in big trouble. And so it's the same thing, you know, people sit down next to you. And it's not martial arts, it's, you know, you've been saved by the grace of God alone and you want to study and you can think clearly,

God has given you a good mind, and then you start dissecting his argument.

So he thought he was okay until you started down that line. Yeah, well, you know,

I think, and you've talked about friendship evangelism a bunch of times, and I've read some literature on that, and I just, my personal belief here is

I think it's easier, like, I didn't know this person, and as I thought about it, I've lived,

I'm 43 years old, I've lived 43 years without this guy in my life. If he never talks to me again, frankly, it's not a big deal.

And so why wouldn't I start off with the truth? And if we develop a friendship because of that, then wow, we've got a really meaningful friendship.

If he's upset with me, then we're not going to be friends anyway, because he can't know me without knowing, you know, what

I live for and what my beliefs are. So it just seems easier to me before you develop that friendship to preach the truth.

Absolutely. Well, in light of that, John, when I, you know, just see people and around other folks in ministry, there have been times where I've known someone at church, they have a hard time evangelizing a member of their family, because once it's family first and then you try to evangelize, it's very difficult.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, but it's harder than if you don't know the person. So they say something to me, and I say, well,

I've never met your mother, and I know she's at the hospital. I'll be glad to go talk with her, because it's so easy to talk to a stranger compared to talking to a family member.

It is, yeah. And I think there's two reasons for that. I think on the first place, you value the relationship, and if you have a sense that that gospel message is not going to be received well, you may fracture the relationship.

And I think sometimes that can be a hesitation. And I also think, you know, if I'm preaching to my family, hey, aren't you the kid when you were 15, you stole this or you did that, and they sort of know you before you came to faith in Christ.

And sometimes I find people, I don't want to say use it against you, but it becomes a distraction to the message.

So if you don't know someone, I think it's a lot easier. Talking today to John Lawler.

John and I met via No Compromise Radio Ministry, and there are many of you that I've met who have listened throughout the years and many who pray and encourage, and I really appreciate that.

I consider it a kindness of the Lord and one of his blessings, many blessings, not just that Christ suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, but also all these other things, and friends and families and taste buds and relationships.

And so, John, I appreciate you and your ministry. I like, I think you'll know what I mean when I say this, and my listeners know me well enough

I can say it. I like manly men. That doesn't mean, you know, you have to be

Andre the Giant, you know, Hulk of a man, but just a godly man who has convictions and will stand up for the truth and will help people in need and help people that are weak, and you epitomize all that.

So I'm thankful that you're a supporter of No Compromise Radio because I wouldn't want you against me. I don't think that will happen.

But I'm probably worse than you think I am as well. Well, that's true. I can say that.

So I appreciate the compliments. But, you know, this life, we get progressively more sanctified, so hopefully you see more of that as the friendship continues and goes on.

Amen, John. Thanks for being on No Compromise Radio. Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate it. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible -teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.