September 29, 2023 Show with Matt Slick on “One Christian’s Journey Through the Occult”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 29th day of September, 2023, and many of my regular listeners may detect a change in my voice today.

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I have been as sick as a dog ever since returning from the G3 Conference, but today was the first day

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I felt well enough to conduct a live interview, and I want to thank all of you who were praying not only for my traveling mercies, but for a blessed time.

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Let's even start back further than the G3 Conference. The Future of Christendom Conference that I helped to arrange in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, featuring

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, which also featured a debate with Dr.

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Gregory Coles, who identifies himself as a gay Christian. That debate was on the theme,

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Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

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The debate and conference went spectacularly well, and I thank you for your prayers for that, and the

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G3 Conference also, where I immediately headed to Atlanta after the

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Lancaster Conference. I immediately headed to Atlanta, Georgia, to get there early for the

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G3 Conference, and that was a blast as well. And I appreciate your continued prayers for my health, because I have an upcoming

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Free Pastor's Luncheon next Thursday, and I certainly do not want to be feeling like this on that day.

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But today, I'm very excited and honored to have on the program for the very first time, by popular demand,

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Matt Slick, founder and president of CARM, which stands for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry, and we're going to be addressing one

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Christian's journey through the occult. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Audientrip and Zion Radio, Matt Slick.

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Well, thank you for having me on, I appreciate it. Here we are, and hopefully it'll be a good show.

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I'm quite confident it will be, and it is true, I did not exaggerate, there are quite a number of listeners in my audience who have been asking me for a long time to have you on, and I'm glad that finally this has come to fruition.

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I'm wanting you to tell our listeners, first of all, about CARM. Yeah, CARM stands for the

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Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, and I started it back in 1995 with this new thing called the internet, because before that, it was bulletin boards.

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You'd dial up on your phone and you'd get in and type out a message, then you'd get off your phone, come back in a few hours later and check.

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So I had a lot of information that was already written, I always kept everything, and I was using a computer, a desktop computer, we'd back down even.

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So anyway, as the internet progressed, more and more areas were available to write and to communicate with unbelievers.

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So I started CARM because I wanted to be able to have a place I could just put answers. Not that it was going to be any big deal,

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I just thought, okay, I'll just type up some answers and put them there and say, hey, well, I wrote about that right here, because I've always been doing apologetics since 1980, and I just love it.

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So anyway, I remember when we got 70 page views in a day, and the most we've ever had now is 93 ,000 in a day, and we're averaging about 33 ,000 a day now.

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But yeah, you know, it's busy. We've had 158 million visitors, 57 million visitors, and 83 million returning visitors.

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Written nine books, been doing radio for 20 years, and you know, just stuff like that.

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So CARM's there for people, and I can tell, I know I'm giving a lot there, but I'm autistic, and so I have

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Asperger's. And so I just like to get to the point, and it happens to be perfect for writing on the internet.

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I just say what I'm going to say quickly, get right to the point, get the information out, and then go on to the next issue, and I guess that's why people like it, because you have to read eight million words to get an answer.

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Wow. Well, you are living proof that we cannot stereotype people with autism or Asperger's syndrome.

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Right. Obviously, you would be in the spectrum known as highly functional autism, because I never would have known in a million years that you had that condition.

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Yeah, I do. I've been diagnosed, and I have problems with hearing, with touch, too much sound, things like that, and yeah, there's things that manifest.

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And my wife would say I've got a lot more problems than that, but you know. Is that connected at all with OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder?

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And some people it is. With me, it's not. But I do get highly focused, and I will work hard, and I will work for a long period of time solving issues, and because I'm not trying to brag, but I'm not stupid, and I can figure things out, and so what

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I'm able to do is take complicated things and break them down and make them hopefully easy to understand, and that's by God's grace.

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It's only by God's grace, by His glory. That's all it is. So He gets all the praise. Amen. Well, there are differences amongst the many apologetics ministries out there.

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Sometime you will have an apologetics ministry that has a very broad approach to apologetics, and they will have staff members and representatives representing a spectrum of theological viewpoints.

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They'll have theologically reformed individuals on the staff. They'll have

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Arminians who are evangelical, and they will have other evangelicals represented.

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They'll have Credo Baptists and Paedo Baptists. Is there a broad spectrum at CARM, or are you more specific from a specific point of view theologically?

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Well, I myself am a five -point Amillennialist, Paedo Baptist, non -cessational

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Covenantalist, but you don't have to believe all of that in order to work with CARM. We have people who work with us, and I'm not even sure some of the areas, what they hold eschatologically, because I believe in the rapture post -Trib,

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Amillennialism, and that the first ones taken when Jesus comes back are the wicked. That's a whole other topic.

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I believe in the charismatic gifts, but, you know. And some of the people I work with at CARM affirm some of these things, and some don't, and that's okay.

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So I'm probably wrong about it anyway, you know. Well, do you have anybody on staff that is not theologically

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Reformed? No, and that's not by design.

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It's just by how it's worked, because generally what happens is, as people get to know me, and they listen to me on the radio or read the articles, generally what happens is they disagree with Reformed theology, but they keep listening, and then they realize it's very, very biblical, and they become

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Reformed, and then they end up working with us, because they listen. I've listened to you for three years, you know, four years, and I want to help out now, and so that kind of helps work that way.

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Yeah, I've found that many people who think they're adamantly opposed to Reformed theology are opposed to a fiction that is in their imagination that they have learned from anti -Calvinists.

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I'm sorry, folks, that I am repeating back to myself, and that's something that's beyond my control, but people who have only read anti -Calvinist literature by anti -Calvinists and never read the heroes of the

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Reformed faith themselves. So some of these folks may be getting an epiphany here when they discover what true

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Reformed theology is. It's, wait a minute, this is not what I always thought about it. This is completely in line with the

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Scripture, and so on. Yeah, I guess you're Reformed and didn't know. Yeah, and I have a way of showing people stuff in Reformed theology and asking them questions and teaching.

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I've been defending it, I don't know, 32 years, I guess, give or take.

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Well, if anybody wants more details on CARM, go to carm .org,

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C -A -R -M dot org. Well, we're talking today about a subject that I find very fascinating, one

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Christian's journey through the occult, and that one Christian would be you. Whenever we have a first -time guest on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, we always have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, but in this case, the entire program is really going to be your journey through the occult and then eventually coming to Christ and so forth.

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So let's start with what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised.

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Well, I have an unusual background. My dad was a stutterer who served in World War II in the

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Navy, Korea in the Army, and Vietnam in the Air Force, and so I literally had moved 26 times before I was 12 years old.

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And I've moved a total of 40 now, and I live in Idaho. We've lived here the longest

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I've ever lived in one place in my life, which is about 19 years. So I'm almost 67, and I've been around.

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But at any rate, so we moved a lot, and I wasn't integrated in any church, anything like that.

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At 12 years old, moved into Orange County, Southern California, and a friend of mine that I became friends with, his mom was involved in the occult stuff, and that's where I got started in it and was involved with it for a few years.

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But I don't always tell this story, but before that, my mom, she's passed away.

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My dad's passed away. She told me some stories that happened to her that relates to all of this, and I remember talking to her about it and saying,

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Were you on drugs? Were you on medications, you know, after you're given birth, sleep deprivation?

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And she said, No. I'll tell you what it was, but she said it happened for several years.

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My mom's IQ was genius. Anyway, she said that she would start having these dreams of a man coming to her in her sleep, and he would be dressed in a black hat, white long -sleeved shirt rolled up to the elbows, black slacks, black shoes, and that he would just come to her, and it would terrify her, and she'd wake up, and she would watch him walk through the wall, the foot of the bed, and then stand there at the foot of the bed and watch her.

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Wow. It terrified her. Yeah. And she said it happened many, many times. And I said, Mom, come on, you know, any drugs?

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She goes, Look, once or two times, you know, okay, whatever, bad dreams. But she said, No. She's very cognizant.

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She was aware. She'd wake up my dad, and he's back, and dad would go turn the light on.

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He'd disappear. So this happened for a few years, and then I was born, and let me turn my throat.

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So I was born, and he came again in her sleep. She woke up, and she told me that this time, he walked over to where I was in the crib, was standing half in a wall and half out of the wall, just watching me in the crib.

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And she woke up my dad, and what's he doing? And my mom said,

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Well, he's staring at Matthew. She was calling Matthew. And what's he doing? Nothing, just staring.

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And so he wouldn't turn the light on, and the guy disappeared, and that was it. No more.

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So no more of these, right? Well, after I was involved in the occult with my friend, we're trying astral projection, and I never told him about this story.

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I just never felt comfortable telling anybody about it because when you're mid -teens, your mom and dad, you don't want to talk about them too much with your buds and stuff like that, but you're kind of embarrassed about them.

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So I never told him, and like I said, we're doing astral projection.

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I could never quite do it, though. I got close, and he said he could do it.

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He lives across the street, and I said, Okay. His name was Dave. I said, Dave, look, I'll tell you what. I'm going to, we're in high school.

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I'm going to put stuff in my room and certain objects from around the house on my desk in a certain pattern. You please come over, and astral projection, you tell me what these objects are so I can verify that this is happening.

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He said, Sure, no problem. Next day, we're heading to school, and I said, So what'd you see?

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He said, Nothing. I said, Yeah, right, of course. I said, Why not? And he said he was projecting across the street, and there was a man at the front of the house who wouldn't let him in.

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I said, What? He said, Yeah, he was a man who had a black hat on and a white long -sleeved shirt rolled up to his elbows, black shoes and black pants, and he wouldn't let me in.

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And I was stunned by that. So that was kind of my intro to a lot of this stuff.

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And then I got involved more heavily. So that didn't frighten you away from it. It actually drove you into it.

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Yes, it did. Because I was because I moved so much,

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I was anorexic also, which is rare among males. And so at 19 years old, at six feet tall,

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I weighed 117 pounds. Wow. So there was a lot of trauma and some stuff.

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So people often get involved in the occult because they want some power, influence, regularity.

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Some are just curious, but generally it's because they want to have some influence, power and control. Well, that's what

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I wanted because I was so stinking skinny. My last name being Slick, I got beat up a lot and chased and things like that.

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Actually, I think you have the coolest name on the planet. You sound like a private detective or something.

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Well, it was, you know, I went to 12 different elementary schools, so it was not easy.

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When your last name is Slick, you have buck teeth and you're super skinny. So I was the lightest, physically the lightest kid in our junior high, including all the girls.

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Wow. So it was a lot of trauma. I've got still have some effects of the trauma from a lot of stuff.

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Took years to get over. And because of my autism, I had to develop a way to get around things and work through things.

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So because I'm intelligent, not trying to boast, but, you know, I'm not. Anyway, so I was able to figure out workarounds.

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But this is one of the reasons I believe all of this stuff is why I got involved in the occult. And so I got involved with it and things started happening, started seeing stuff.

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Now, I'm assuming from what I have heard that the occult is a broad term and it's not monolithic.

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There are some aspects of the occult that would overtly publicly admit and claim an identity that is connected to Satan and that kind of thing.

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And there are those who are more involved in nature worship.

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Pantheism, all kinds of things in that category. And then, you know, you have people involved in Santeria and some of the

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Latin American and or should I say Latin forms of the occult.

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So what was it that what aspect of the occult were you involved in and what specifically and uniquely was appealing to you?

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Well, because I had so many nightmares of being killed in my sleep. I had

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I didn't I didn't stop till I was 35 years old. Wow. Being murdered. Yeah. Oh, I was it was a lot of trauma and growing up.

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So I had to use my brain to survive. But so I wasn't involved in like Wicca is occultic

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Santeria. You mentioned there wasn't much of that in Southern California. But a lot of astrology and the

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New Age movement was up and coming at that point. And so there's some

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New Age stuff. But what we would do is have seances and table tilting and pendulum work, energy transference or visualization, astral projection, summoning spirits.

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I can't believe I cannot. You know, I wish I could go back to my. Young teenage self and beat the crap out of myself for my stupidity.

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I still want to beat the crap out of myself. So my wife wants to beat it out of me sometimes, but that's another story.

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You know, she rubs her forehead around me a lot. I don't know what her problem is. She gets headaches a lot.

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But so that was it. And that was what led to it. My friend's mom was involved with this kind of stuff.

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And so it was only because of her that I started getting involved with some things.

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And then we introduced a couple of our other friends from high school into it. And we would do things, do stuff.

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We can tell you what happened. We can tell you all kinds of stuff. But we do stuff. Now, did you view this as something that was wrong and dark and evil?

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Just like there, you know, when you're a kid, especially there can be things that are titillating.

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I was very much involved in heavy metal music when

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I was a teenager. And much of the lyric content was very dark and satanic.

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The album cover artwork and so on. And I knew that this stuff was in rebellion against God.

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And even as a rebel against God as a teenager, I never ceased to believe from my

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Catholic upbringing before I came to Christ. I never ceased to believe that God was real, that Jesus Christ was

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God. I believed in the Trinity. Of course, I didn't have a very deep understanding of these things.

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I knew that somehow Jesus Christ died for my sins.

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And I knew, I actually knew, that if I had died as a teenager, I would go to hell.

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But I still defied the odds, thinking that I was going to live to an old enough age where when

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I had already sown my wild oats, I could come to Christ. And thankfully, he did spare my life that long.

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But did you know, did you enter into this knowing that it was somehow dark and something that was taboo and that you shouldn't be doing it?

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No. I just thought it was fun. Because, yeah, I believe in God, but the devil believes also in trumbles, you know,

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James 2 .19. But, yeah, I believed in all that kind of stuff, but it didn't really matter.

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It didn't have any power. It didn't have any influence, because it wasn't. It was just Ascensia, not fiducia. Ascensia is mental ascent.

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Fiducia is trust and heartfelt trust. And so for me, it wasn't that. It was just, hey, look at this.

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Let's try this. And got involved. And what specifically were you doing? Was it Ouija boards?

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Ouija boards, other kinds of things. I don't remember specifically Ouija board, but I believe I did, because we did so many things.

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But one of the things we would do, and I'm not going to give too many details, because I don't want to explain how to do stuff.

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Right, right. I understand. But one of the things we would do, there were four of us, eventually a group that we were in.

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We would go over to one of our guy's friend's houses, and this is one of the things we would do.

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We would turn the lights out, and then we would prepare ourselves and wait, and just wait in the darkness.

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And sometimes nothing would happen. We'd be there for an hour. Sounds like a Quaker meeting house.

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Yeah, well, yeah. So we would see lights move, form in the air, things like that.

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Really? One time I was laying on – oh, yeah. I've heard my name being called by a female voice out of a ceiling before.

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I mean, audible, you know. So one time – I remember this one.

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We were down doing this, and nothing was happening. At least, I wasn't seeing anything that night. And so the goal was we'd wait until one of us would talk, because we didn't know if anybody was seeing anything.

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Or where I was, I couldn't see around me. And I was laying on the floor next to a coffee table in the living room.

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You know, this guy's house. His parents were gone. And so after a half hour, I said,

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Hey, guys, you seeing anything? And they told me to be quiet. And I said, Why? And they said, The light. You don't see it? I said, See what?

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There's a light over you, Matt. We're watching it. And I couldn't see it.

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It was right over – you know, directly in front of me. But they could, which I have no explanation for.

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But they could. And so then after a while, it just faded away, went away. So you're saying that you believe these things were somehow conjured up or manifested just by your desire to open up that window into some other realm, just because you and your friends wanted this to happen.

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Now, I'm assuming you don't believe this would always happen, just because a group of like -minded people are sitting around wanting things to happen.

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But for some reason, it happened with you. Yeah, well, we had been working at trying to make contact.

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It's called necromancy, is the attempt to contact the dead, which you can't do.

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I've never heard it pronounced that way. I've always heard it necromancy, but I guess I'm perhaps wrong. Yeah, necromancy, necromancy.

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I've heard it different ways. Tomato, tomato. So we would just do that, and we would wait.

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But I do remember once just seeing a ball of light moving, just a speckle, not a speckle, but it's a thing of light, stuff like that.

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I've heard noises, even to this day. My wife and I, we've noticed lately, we can skip ahead, but we've noticed some thumps in the house and some very odd sounds.

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And I can get into all that kind of stuff, and we can talk about what to do about things like that. We've got stories of people who come over the house, and one guy said he could see things.

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Okay, whatever. Don't know if he can, don't know if he can't. And he said that he could see watchers outside of our house.

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And okay, I said, really? Then my daughter, one of our daughters, once said she saw a figure in our hallway here in the house once.

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And what I did, I'll tell you, but what I did was I had my wife take the kids out, and then

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I prayed to the house, anointed the entire house with oil, prayed and worked with it. But you see, you've got to understand, what

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I do for a living is very unusual because I actually go into occult things like study

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Wicca. I'll be studying Satanism. Mormonism is occultic. Jehovah's Witnesses are occultic.

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Roman Catholicism is occultic. So is Eastern Orthodoxy. There's a lot of occult stuff in these things.

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And so when I have books, like one time I was doing a section on Wicca, which is a form of witchcraft, witchcraft light.

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Yeah, don't they call it white witchcraft or something like that? Yeah, some do and some don't. And there's different versions of it.

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So I got these books, and I ordered a bunch of them, got them in the mail.

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And what I was going to do was research, and I did. I wrote a section on Wicca. It's on karma.

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And so when I got these box of books, I prayed over them, laid hands on the box, laid hands on stuff and prayed over them, binding in the name of Jesus Christ, et cetera.

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Well, that night I had one of the most gaspingly terrifying nightmares

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I'd had in my life. And I woke up, and it took 30 seconds to come back.

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So terrifying. I looked over at those. I went, that's why. And prayed, went back to sleep.

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Two days later, I'm on the freeway. My right rear tire explodes.

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Not just goes flat on the freeway, just boom. And I mean so loud that you could easily flinch and cause your car to do

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But I didn't. And I had to, you know, get out and change it. I still remember how loud and terrifying it was.

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So unexpected. And then a few days after that, I live in Boise, Idaho area, on the

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Boise River. Now, just to let you know, I'm a fish. I've been swimming since I was four years old. And I'm a natural swimmer, love water.

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And so we're on the Boise River. And long story short, I got ejected from a raft and landed on rocks on the middle of the river.

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Cracked ribs, cracked my wrist. You know, had trouble walking for a while. Had trouble breathing.

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But all of this happened within just a few days of getting those books. And if one thing happens, okay.

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But three, something's up. So I just kept moving forward and kept studying.

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And I still do. And expose all the filthy lies of Satan that's out there in so many religions. So much crap in Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, even in Protestantism.

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There's a lot of witchcraft people don't know in the positive confession movement. There's so much. I have a shirt that says, so much heresy, so little time.

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Well, let's pick up where you left off there because I want you to identify, and because of the limits that we have with time and summary form, but I want you to identify how these major religions, world religions, and even in the realm of Protestantism can somehow be accurately linked with the occult.

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If anybody has any questions, our email is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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U .S .A. You may remain anonymous if you are asking a personal and private question because you have been involved in the occult or something else that would compel you to remain anonymous.

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We will grant your request. chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Don't go away.

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We are going to be right back after these messages. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the

30:08

Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

30:16

God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

30:22

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

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Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

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Bible. Hi there, my name is Jordan Tew, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor, and for good reason. We are

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Baptist, and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the

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Word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

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May God bless you. I'm Dr.

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Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

31:22

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the

31:30

Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.

31:37

Joseph Khmorkraft. It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

31:50

Dr. Khmorkraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Khmorkraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

32:25

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

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Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

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Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

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Chris Armstrong's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager,

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And I give a mighty big thanks to Christian documentarian

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Well, he went to royaldiadem .com for his wife's birthday gift last week, and I am so grateful for that, not only because he took heed to the commercials on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but because we, as I've been saying for weeks now, we at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are receiving 100 % of the profits from that sale just because Jerry mentioned

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Iron Shepard's Iron Radio. That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Matt Slick.

40:37

We have been hearing about his journey through the occult, and on second thought,

40:45

I'm second -guessing myself from what I said earlier, I think we should probably, before we go into some of the specifics about major religions that even identify as Christian, how they are naively involved in the occult in some way, perhaps we should hear how you eventually came to Christ first, and then we can proceed after that with those details that I mentioned earlier.

41:15

So what were the providential circumstances that eventually led you to Christ? It's dramatic, and I'll tell you.

41:29

What I often do when I'm talking about this is relate something as a comparison.

41:36

About 29 years ago, my wife and I had a son, and he died in our arms shortly after being born.

41:45

I heard his last heartbeat in the stethoscope, and I hope that if anybody out there is listening to this and that's happened to you, my apologies for trying to bring up something bad, but I use this as a measuring tool.

42:00

I hope no one ever has to experience it, but it was maximally painful, and I've got stories associated with that.

42:08

I wept that day, and I wept tremendously. So just imagine that as something that is just horrifying, and if you're a parent, you can relate to it.

42:21

I mean, not that you've lost any children, but... So I bring it up because of something.

42:28

You see, when I was 17, some friends were bugging me about going to church, and I said, well, maybe

42:35

I'll go check it out. I don't know. I don't care. I was kind of agnostic about everything, and I went to this church, and they had a film about Jesus, and then after the film, the pastor said, who wouldn't mind knowing more about Jesus?

42:47

Okay, well, I wouldn't mind knowing more, you know. Raised my hand, and some other people did, and he said, good, come forward.

42:56

Well, I didn't want to go forward, but I did anyway and was resentful for that, and I've never done drugs, never drank.

43:02

I didn't start having alcohol until I was in my late 20s, that kind of thing. There was no drugs. There was nothing, and I don't follow the crowd because I learned to be independent because I've moved so much, but I decided

43:13

I'm going to go up there and just see and learn. Went up there, and as I walked up, a man with a big

43:19

Bible met me, and he came up to the front. Lo and behold, we're going to receive

43:24

Christ, and about 10 or so, 12 people or so, I don't know, of us were up there, and okay, kneeled down, received

43:30

Christ. I remember looking at the exit of the church going, man, I'm going to get out of here. I just don't want to be here.

43:36

It's just stupid. And I was looking at other people and whatever.

43:43

So then he asked me, he said, do you want to receive Christ as your Savior? Well, I believe that God was and Jesus was, but who knows much more than that.

43:53

So I went through what's called Pascal's Wager, not knowing that's what it was. I just said, well, if Jesus is real,

43:59

I pick him, I win. If he's not real, I pick him. It doesn't really matter. Logically, what

44:05

I'll do is I'll give him a shot, and I'll try and I'll give Jesus a try.

44:10

And I said, well, if I'm going to do this, I might as well be sincere. So I'll be as sincere as I can. This is the attitude that I started praying to receive

44:19

Christ. All of a sudden, the

44:24

Holy Spirit himself manifested. It came over me with such incredible power and purity and strength that he washed into my soul and instantly revealed to me the depth of my sinfulness.

44:42

And I threw my face to the ground and moaned and started yelling out my agony.

44:52

I was in the presence of incredible purity. And I was almost puking the agonizing tears and moans and groans as the undulating holiness and power was moving through me and over me and upon me.

45:09

And this happened when I was 17. I'll be 67 in a couple of months. So almost 50 years ago,

45:16

I can still remember looking through the tears, the eyes down at the carpet and the multicolored,

45:22

I can still see it. I can still see the snot, the mucus, the wailing, wailing.

45:31

And I cried harder that day than I did the day I buried my son. It was beyond,

45:38

I don't know how to describe it, beyond agony.

45:44

It was just complete, total, out of the depth of what you are, just agony.

45:53

I was in the presence of holiness because my sin was being made aware to me.

45:59

What it was and the depth of it was so profound. And I remember how filthy

46:06

I was and how just unworthy I was. And I don't know how I knew it was he was the

46:11

Holy Spirit. I just knew. And this went on for about a minute. Just heaving tears and agonizing, just repentance in the presence of incredible holiness.

46:22

And then to my left a couple of feet and behind me just a couple of feet, just to my side,

46:29

Jesus manifested. Now, it wasn't like I could see him or touch him, but I still to this day remember his presence.

46:40

I remember him looking at me. I remember he was considering me. I remember the fear, the expectation, the hope, the wonder.

46:51

What's he doing here? He's here for me. Why is he looking at me? I just knew all of it in my heart.

46:58

I can't explain how. It just was. I don't know how I knew it was him.

47:04

It just was him. And then he stepped into me.

47:17

He moved into me. And I had this profound sensation that my filth left and the sin that I had was gone.

47:29

And I was completely forgiven. I was indwelt by my Lord and my Savior, Jesus Christ.

47:36

And I've never been the same since. I could talk a lot more about it, but it drastically altered me.

47:45

And how did you, because your description of your salvation moment is obviously, as you know, very different than that which would be explained by the majority of theologically reformed

47:59

Christians. How did you ever come to discover and embrace reformed theology and then enter into apologetics ministry?

48:09

Well, because I knew who Christ was and I'd encountered him in that personal relationship, and I didn't know much and floundered in churches and wanted to learn, but I'm not happy with preachers as a whole.

48:24

I don't think they do a very good job. Sorry, I don't. But so I was at a

48:32

Bible study and a friend of mine named Chuck Spine, and I'd only met him the week before, and he read me a quote.

48:39

And all these affidavits and all these indictments, it is all the devil, all corruption, you false swears, all hell boil over your burning mountains.

48:47

Roll down your law before I will come out of the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I've done more to keep a church together since the days of Adam, neither

48:54

John, Paul, Peter, nor Jesus has ever done such a work as I. I got so mad

49:00

I ripped the paper out of this guy's hand. I said, who said this? And he said, that was Joseph Smith. And I said, well, who's that?

49:07

That's a founder of Mormonism. And I said, well, Mormons are Christians, but this guy isn't. He said, no,

49:12

Mormons are not Christians. I said, what do you mean they're not Christians? They believe in God. He goes, no, they don't. I said, what? He started telling what they really believe.

49:19

And I was like, you're kidding me. God from another planet? God's wife? What? And so I started.

49:28

He had this class he was going to. I'm going with you. And that's what started it. And because of my autism,

49:36

I can see patterns in numbers. I see patterns in different things. And I see how theology interrelates.

49:45

And I can stand just I'm doing this for a long time, but I can just stand without notes and talk for two hours on theology and interrelate them back and forth and left and right.

49:56

You know, baptism, covenants, the millennium rapture. Justification, imputation, propitiation, security, all this stuff, trinitarian essence, hypostatic union, communicatio idiomatum, inseparable operations.

50:11

You know, I can do all this because I see these how it interrelates. And God gave me this, gave me this ability.

50:18

And so I'm using it for his glory. And I started studying everything else after Mormonism.

50:24

And next thing you know, umpteen years later, here I am doing this thing called Karm. I've been full time with it almost 19 years now.

50:34

And I just started a doctorate degree. I don't know if I'm going to complete it, but I started it and I got books

50:41

I got to finish. And, oh, man, that's so much to do, so much to do.

50:49

And in fact, after the show here, I do my regular radio show. Then three of us, we're going to be driving down to Salt Lake City.

50:55

We're going to the LDS General Conference. We're going to hold up signs and witness.

51:00

Then I got to preach on Sunday down there, and then I got to come back Sunday night. And where along that journey, though, did you specifically discover

51:10

Reformed theology? And how did you come to embrace it, believe it and embrace it and love it?

51:17

Well, I was basically what you call a three or a four pointer at the time.

51:24

I hadn't really thought too much theology. I was always doing street apologetics. And I was believing eternal security and then predestination.

51:33

I adopted in college at a Lutheran college I went to. And by the time I got out of seminary,

51:38

Westminster Theological Seminary in San Diego, California, I was a four pointer.

51:44

I was what's called an Amaraldian. I didn't believe in limited atonement. And boy,

51:50

I can sure argue it now, though. Oh, man, I can support limited atonement from the scriptures. But so about a year after graduating or six months after graduating,

51:59

I don't remember. I was talking to two Marvin missionaries. I still remember this.

52:06

I'm in Escondido, California, Southern California. And I always stop missionaries, always stop. You know, I'm always witnessing.

52:12

And I talked to and they said, well, Jesus died for everybody. And I said, just to say it, I said, maybe he didn't.

52:18

Maybe he did. He only died for the elect. And they said, that's stupid. And I said, no, well, what if, you know, and I didn't believe it.

52:25

I just started arguing. And within 20 minutes, I'd convinced myself this makes sense because it answered everything.

52:33

And that's what I adopted. Became I became a full five pointer about 1991.

52:40

Those were the rudest Mormon missionaries I've ever heard about. They're typically you could get it.

52:48

You could go into diabetic shock typically by just listening to them speak. But they don't know what they're doing.

52:55

They're ignorant. Well, we're going into our midway break right now. And please be patient, folks, because, as always, the midway break is a little longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

53:07

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

53:13

FCC requires of them to localize geographically. Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to where they are located in Lake City, Florida.

53:22

And they use their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of the show, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:31

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

53:43

And also, obviously, write in your question to Matt Slick and ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

53:49

And I'm asking those who have already submitted your questions to please be patient. We'll get to you as soon as possible.

53:55

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back. When Iron Sharp and Zion Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

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Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Hi, this is

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpen's Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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O hail the power of Jesus' name.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:01:13

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end from which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

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If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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01:08:50

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01:11:09

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question.

01:11:18

And before we move into a very important aspect, which is how major religions within Christendom even may be connected to the occult, at least in your learned opinion,

01:11:33

I just have a couple of questions I want to move to first from listeners so we don't run out of time before asking any listener questions.

01:11:41

We have Cindy in Findley, Ohio, who I know is a very avid listener to everything that you have to offer with CARM.

01:11:54

She says, Hello, Matt and Chris. Very quickly, may I say hello to Joe, Jimmy, Matt, Ernie, and all the rest of my

01:12:04

CARM friends. Matt, I know you are a non -cessationist, and my question is not addressing that, but I was watching a video of Doreen Virtue, a 20 -year

01:12:18

New Age spiritist and channeler who became a charismatic Christian. She was interviewing

01:12:24

David Lovey, the writer of the newly released movie, Cessationist. Because she was a new

01:12:32

Christian and previously steeped in the New Age, her theology was a bit off at first.

01:12:40

She is now reformed. In the interview, she recounts speaking with Justin Peters, whom

01:12:49

I know you regard very highly, as I do, and said that when discussing some of the false healing that is proclaimed by the charismatic church,

01:12:58

Justin explained to her that sometimes demons will inflict disease or illness upon an individual, draw them into false healers to gain a supposed healing, thereby deceiving them and keeping them in false teaching.

01:13:17

I don't know if that was the entire question. I'm looking back. Yeah, that was the entire...

01:13:23

It wasn't really a question, it was a comment. So I guess you could respond to that,

01:13:28

Matt. Yeah, sure. I know Justin. He's a great guy.

01:13:34

And he's a complete hardcore cessationist. I'm not. I said, hey, let's talk about it sometime, and that's not going to happen, apparently.

01:13:43

But, yeah, there's a lot of fakery out there. And just because there's a healing doesn't mean it's from God.

01:13:51

If you go to Matthew 7, 22 through 23, Jesus says on that day, many will say to me,

01:13:56

Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, perform many good works, miracles in your name?

01:14:02

And he'll say, get away from me, I never knew you. So there are those who can perform miracles, do a great deal of good, it would seem, but are not of God.

01:14:11

So there are demonic sources of healings. And as Justin said, and I quoted him, that's fine.

01:14:16

They can cause something to be bad in a person, and then someone prays to the false god, false whatever, and then the demonic force just acts like everything's okay, and maybe does a healing in the body, whatever.

01:14:30

And so deception goes forth. So it's absolutely a reality, and it's something we have to be very aware of.

01:14:37

And in the stupidity of the Protestant movement, where the positive confession movement is, a new apostolic reformation, these sisters in bed with each other, there's a lot of occultism that goes in there.

01:14:49

The issue about that is a lot of times what sorcery is, is one of the forms of it is saying a sentence, a formula, an incantation to get a required and necessary spiritual result.

01:15:03

And that's what happens in a lot of positive confession movement. They say certain sentences that God's obligated to follow, and then they can get a spiritual result out of it.

01:15:11

And that's a form of occult, but it's alive and well. And I can get into more about that, but yeah, it's alive and well in the

01:15:17

Christian church, unfortunately. So you're basically saying you agree on that point with Justin Peters.

01:15:24

Now, the folks in those extreme movements, like the new apostolic reformation, do they typically call themselves

01:15:31

Protestants? Yeah, they do. They're in the Protestant movement. But the

01:15:38

N .E .R. has prophets and apostles today who are in authority.

01:15:45

So a friend of mine and I went down to Redding, California. I don't know, four years ago. Went to Bethel, and we walk into this one room, and they said, are you here for your healing?

01:15:57

And anyway, no. So we went into the libraries, looked around. They had false books in there, books from bad people, bad teachers like Joyce Meyer is a bad teacher.

01:16:09

Joel Osteen is horrible. Kenneth Copeland, these are heretics. All of them are heretics. Publicly, I'm saying that they're heretics.

01:16:16

And I'd be glad to debate them on it. But the N .E .R., like the positive confession movement, what it seeks to do is elevate man's ability and power by using

01:16:29

God and spiritual means to achieve what they want so that they are experiencing great movements of God.

01:16:38

And I think some of them are legitimate. That's another discussion. God can certainly use things of varying kinds.

01:16:44

But they want to have this influence, power, control, and they want to have that experiential relationship with God to such a degree that whatever they say and do is from God, et cetera.

01:16:55

But the problem is that so many of them don't know the gospel, don't preach the gospel, and couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

01:17:02

If it was pointed 45 degrees downhills, Greece, there was a chain pulling them out. They still couldn't get out.

01:17:08

They don't know what they're talking about. It's very unfortunate. And that's another thing that bothers me about the Christian church is most

01:17:14

Christians don't know their doctrine. And I'm not talking about highfalutin stuff like I know. I'm talking about the basics of the

01:17:20

Christian faith, which so many Christians just don't seem to know. And it's a real problem. It's a real problem.

01:17:26

Well, thank you, Cindy, in Findlay, Ohio. Keep listening to Iron Church on Zion Radio and spreading the word in Ohio and beyond about the program.

01:17:35

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who has a question. I'm curious what

01:17:41

Matt's opinion is on some of the more prominent evangelical experts, and he puts that in quotes, on the occult, such as the late

01:17:51

German pastor Kurt Koch. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that right. I'm sorry,

01:17:58

K -O -C -H. Are there any such experts whose work would benefit

01:18:03

Christians? Conversely, are there any that Matt would advise us to avoid?

01:18:10

Well, to be honest, I don't read those guys. I don't know who they are. What I normally do when

01:18:17

I research is go to Scripture and just go through Scripture, Scripture, read

01:18:23

Commentary, Scripture, Commentary, Scripture, Scripture. And if I need to get other books, I go to the sources like the

01:18:30

Wicca books or the Satanic Bible or whatever it is. I go to those sources, and I just write from there.

01:18:35

So I don't really read other authors very much. I can't tell you which authors are good or not good.

01:18:42

So I wish I could, but my first reaction is to say, read Ephesians 6.

01:18:47

Study Ephesians 6 and study what the spiritual battle is. Scan through the

01:18:53

Gospels and see what the demonic forces are doing in relationship to Christ. I always tell people the

01:18:58

Word of God is what you want to go to first, and that's why I memorize a lot of Scripture. I memorize a lot of stuff out of Scripture, and I quote references.

01:19:06

I'll say to people, 1 Peter 2 .24 says this, or John 3 .16, or Colossians 2 .14, one of my favorite verses, or Romans 5 .18.

01:19:13

And I just say these because you've got to be in the Word, and these books can be helpful. But I say primarily go to the

01:19:19

Word and then go to the books second. I don't have any—I wish I did have some recommendations, but I just don't read them. Maybe if I get back into the occult studies,

01:19:26

I will. But for now, I don't have any. Ted, when I was at the G3 conference last week in Atlanta, Georgia, someone told me about a

01:19:37

Reformed brother. He may be a pastor. I can't remember. I can't even remember his name. But when

01:19:42

I find out who this individual is, I will let you know. But there is somebody who is doing his doctorate dissertation, doctoral dissertation at a

01:19:56

Reformed seminary on all things related to the demonic, demon possession, the occult, and things like that.

01:20:07

And as soon as I find out who that is, I will let you know.

01:20:13

Because for the life of me, I can't remember right now. But thanks for sending in a question.

01:20:18

Before we go to any more listener questions, I want to make sure that some of the vital things that you brought up are expanded upon, and we go into more detail about them.

01:20:31

You mentioned the Roman Catholic Church and its connection with the occult. Obviously, the vast majority of Roman Catholics are not consciously involved in the occult.

01:20:44

But it is amazing to me that people that I know who are very, very dear to me, very close, who are

01:20:52

Roman Catholic, they go to mediums. And they don't see a huge leap in logic from praying to Mary and saints who have long been deceased and going to a medium.

01:21:10

And it is true that the Roman Catholic Church officially condemns going to mediums.

01:21:17

In fact, one of the beloved

01:21:22

Roman Catholic monsignors on Long Island, New York, where I'm formerly from, he has now passed.

01:21:31

But he was put under discipline by a bishop in the

01:21:38

Roman Catholic Church because he was recommending that people who had lost loved ones go to mediums.

01:21:45

And, you know, absolutely astonishing. But, you know, pick up where I left off, because he might not even be specifically talking about that.

01:21:56

But does this fall under, in your opinion, the category of necromancy?

01:22:03

Yes. We are not to pray to anybody other than God. And the Roman Catholics—I'll put it this way.

01:22:09

I say this on my radio show, and I continue to say it. Anyone who believes official Roman Catholic theology when they die will go to hell.

01:22:17

There's no hope of salvation. If you believe official East Orthodox theology when you die, you're going to hell. Because it both deny the sufficiency of the cross and justification by faith, and they promote—both of them promote idolatry and Mary worship and stuff like that.

01:22:33

And I have a lot of arguments and stuff. I can read you quotes from the Catholic stuff. It's just so bad, so bad.

01:22:39

It's obviously demons that are imitating Mary. But it's really bad.

01:22:45

And there are Catholics who are Christians, but they're Christians in spite of what Catholicism teaches. So Catholicism is very superstitious.

01:22:53

A lot of people don't know this, but Catholicism in America is different than Catholicism elsewhere because America has had a heavy influence of evangelicalism and Bible -based stuff.

01:23:04

And so when you see Catholicism in America, you're seeing a kind of diluted effect of Roman Catholicism.

01:23:12

So when you go to—for example, I went to the

01:23:18

Philippines and did some mission work there. We're in the airport, and they have statues of Mary inside of things that you can sit there and pray to before you get on the plane.

01:23:29

Just stuff like this. When I was in France—my wife speaks French. Her mom was born and raised in France. We were in France, and I went strolling around looking and found an old church.

01:23:39

And I could read it. I mean, I speak Spanish. I could read enough of what was going on, and the language is similar enough.

01:23:45

And there was an offering for the souls in purgatory, that you can get them out of purgatory by offering money.

01:23:55

And just stuff like this. The Roman Catholic Church does this a lot, but not so much here in America.

01:24:01

But out in Europe, particularly in South America, the occultism associated with it is rampant.

01:24:08

And so Catholicism is bankrupt. It is corrupt. And I say on the radio, and I'll say it again, is

01:24:16

I believe—this is just my opinion. I can't prove it, but I believe that there are demonic forces working in the

01:24:21

Vatican, communicating their demonic teachings to their servants in the Vatican that's been disseminated throughout

01:24:27

Catholicism. That's how bad I think it is. Yeah, I agree with you. And it does exist here in a more subtle form, the indulgences.

01:24:37

Every time a Roman Catholic friend or family member gives you a Mass card, because someone that you know and love died, they are paying money for that Mass card, and there are nuns or Catholic brothers or perhaps priests praying for that loved one to be released from purgatory.

01:25:00

That's basically an indulgence. And I have warned in as loving way as possible

01:25:06

Catholics who give me such cards that they should cease from doing so. Now, are you saying when it comes to the

01:25:14

Eastern Orthodox connection to the occult, would it be just something exactly what you already mentioned about Rome, or is there something different?

01:25:23

The issue of Catholicism is it's centralized Rome. Eastern Orthodoxy, not so much.

01:25:29

And they don't have official mandatory belief systems that you've all got to kind of hold to.

01:25:36

It's difficult to research them, so you have to do lots of reading and discussions. I've had many discussions with Eastern Orthodox people, and so it's a little bit more difficult to nail down.

01:25:44

But they still teach works righteousness, and they also teach Mariolatry and praying to the saints.

01:25:51

And they use icons instead of idols or statues. And they have scapulars, too, and medallions and things like this that you wear because they have power associated with these objects.

01:26:02

Oh, my goodness. These poor people. You know, they're just being deceived. And so they're bad off, too.

01:26:08

And what the thing about Eastern Orthodoxy is something called theosis, which is the idea of becoming godlike, but not actually god, but godlike.

01:26:18

Through the energies of God, you attain a godlike status, and then by that, obtain justification.

01:26:28

But the godlike status does not mean you can do everything, but it means you have a divine essence kind of woven into you.

01:26:34

And it's really bizarre, and that's what they teach. And Catholicism is not too far off. They are less prominent in that, but they teach it, too, a form of it.

01:26:46

And, by the way, I want to quickly, before I forget, I want to let our listeners know that I do intend in the near future,

01:26:53

God willing, to interview Marcia Montenegro, who is with the ministry

01:27:01

ChristianAnswersNewAge .com. Oh, yeah. And she was already scheduled, actually, to be on the show this week, but I was too sick to conduct the interview.

01:27:12

And also, Jennifer Nizza, N as in Nancy, I -Z -Z -A, who's an author, and also a former occultic medium who was saved by the grace, mercy, and blood of Jesus Christ.

01:27:27

So keep your eyes and ears open for announcements about those upcoming interviews.

01:27:36

Now, one of the religions you mentioned, interestingly enough, that surprised me about your belief in their connection with the occult surprised me even more than the connection of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy, which in some senses are a lot closer to us as evangelicals, but they have a false gospel, of course.

01:28:00

But the Jehovah's Witnesses, what connection does the Jehovah's Witnesses have with the occult?

01:28:07

Well, it was started by Charles Taze Russell in the 1800s. He didn't like the idea of the Trinity, didn't like the idea of hell, and so he started a

01:28:15

Bible study. And the Jehovah's Witnesses denied the Trinity, denied that Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross as he was crucified on a stake.

01:28:23

He did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in. And let's see,

01:28:30

Watchtower, 1983, February 15th, page 12. It says that the second requirement for salvation is to follow the commandments of God.

01:28:42

So it also teaches works righteousness. Now, Jehovah's Witnesses serve a false God, false Christ, false gospel.

01:28:48

So ultimately, they're serving demonic forces. And you'll notice what's interesting about kingdom halls is they don't have windows in them.

01:28:56

Really interesting. I've always been fascinated by that. But nevertheless, so they are connected.

01:29:03

Put it this way. Romans, excuse me, Galatians 4, 3 and 4. When you did not know God, you serve by nature those which are not gods.

01:29:11

And it goes on like that. And second Corinthians 4, 3 and 4 talks about the

01:29:16

God of this world who's blinded the minds of the unbelieving. Well, we know that the devil is a deceiver.

01:29:23

And so when you can understand something, let me back up and lay a foundation down.

01:29:29

God is a necessary precondition for all intelligibility, all actuality, all potentiality.

01:29:34

Everything that occurs presently occurs within a causal chain context that traces itself back to the initial cause.

01:29:44

That's God. So the only thing that can exist exists along the causal chain, whether God directly decrees it or permits it.

01:29:52

So all truth ultimately traces itself back to God. So my cell phone I'm holding in my hand.

01:29:58

I don't know if you guys can see that, but I'm holding a cell phone. The existence of the cell phone proves God exists. And the reason it does is because it exists inside of a causal chain of events that go back to the single uncaused cause, which can only be

01:30:09

Trinitarian. I can get into that. All right. So truth is a commodity, right, for people.

01:30:14

But for Christians, truth is that which corresponds to the mind of God.

01:30:21

So all truth is revealed by God. All that is revealed by God is true. Whatever he says is always true.

01:30:27

Therefore, whatever contradicts his truth is ultimately demonic.

01:30:33

It exists because of demonic forces exist in contradiction to the truth of God. Moral relativism is alive and well in the

01:30:42

New Age movement and in the occult and in some churches, in Protestant churches, in moral relativism and truth relativism.

01:30:50

You've probably heard statements like this. Well, you know, just your interpretation. What do you believe about this? It's epistemological relativism.

01:31:00

God doesn't work that way. I was at a Bible study once where the Bible study teacher quoted a verse and then said, what do you think it means?

01:31:10

And then person gave a view. And then next person, what do you think it means? And they gave a contradictory view. And then the study teacher said, oh, that's

01:31:17

OK. Let's just move on then. And it was horrible because contradictions don't exist in the mind of God.

01:31:24

And so what that person was doing was inadvertently undermining the very nature and truth of God's mind, as is revealed in the scriptures.

01:31:32

You know, and sometimes you can't come up with exact answers. We get different opinions, but it needs to be discussed. And so the lack of truth and the idea of truth that exists or lack of it in the

01:31:43

Christian church is a real prominent problem. We have to understand that God is the absolute source of all truth.

01:31:49

And even two plus two equals four is a moral statement. Because two plus two equals four only is true because it exists in the mind of God, who is a necessary precondition for all of this.

01:32:01

I can get into all these tangents. And so because God is moral in everything he does, two plus two is four is a moral statement because it's a truth that rests in God's mind.

01:32:11

And we ought to believe what's true that comes from God's mind. So if you deny mathematics, then you're denying the truth.

01:32:19

This is why the teacher of mathematics and philosophy and logic and mechanics and everything you do can glorify

01:32:26

God because all of them come back to the absolute truth and nature of God. And so in the Protestant Reformation, there was a lot of return to the truth of God's word.

01:32:36

But now what's happening is more and more as well. That's what's true for you.

01:32:42

And what they're doing is the king's first king says everyone was doing what was right in their own eyes.

01:32:49

This is the undermining of truth. And then you go to Second Thessalonians 2. I'm almost done. Sorry, but Second Thessalonians 2 talks about the apostasy that's coming.

01:32:57

What apostasy? The apostasy is of the Christian church. And then the

01:33:02

Antichrist will arrive. So there's a lot of lies rampant.

01:33:07

And believe it or not, reform theology helps people eschew lies and error.

01:33:15

I say to people, get reformed. Get reformed. I can clearly remember having a conversation with a dear brother in Christ from England, Nigel Stone, who was about 20 years my senior, at least,

01:33:29

I think. And he is now with the Lord for eternity. But we were having a conversation about the

01:33:36

Jehovah's Witnesses. And I said, I wonder why they don't have windows in their buildings. And Nigel, as he normally did, had a very quick retort.

01:33:47

And he said, because they do not want the light to come in. That's right.

01:33:53

Now, the Mormons, that was a no -brainer to me that there was a connection with the occult, because it is one of the most bizarre religions on the face of the earth, especially when you consider that it identifies itself as Christian.

01:34:10

What is the specific connection of Mormonism to the occult, in your opinion? Well, Joseph Smith was involved in the occult before he started

01:34:18

Mormonism. That's right. That's right. He would do necromancy, try to take the dead. And a lot of people don't know that there was rumors of Captain Kidd's treasure being buried in the

01:34:29

Northeast. So many people were looking for buried treasure. And there was rumors of golden plates that were buried.

01:34:36

So this was all fertilizer for the ground of heresy that would pop up later. And so Joseph Smith was a con artist along with his family.

01:34:45

And the first anti -Mormon book written was written by E .W. Howe in 1834.

01:34:54

And there's sworn affidavits of people who knew Joseph Smith's family and Smith. And they said, you can't trust these guys are liars.

01:35:01

And I can get in more details about that. But he was involved in the occult. And one of the things they would do is say that they could get the buried treasure.

01:35:07

What we have to do is get a bunch of men together. And with shovels, they're going to go dig. But they had to get a goat or a lamb or something.

01:35:13

And then they'd cut its throat. And then they'd let it go in the forest. And wherever it would die, that's where the buried treasure was buried.

01:35:21

So they would start digging underneath that. Now, he got the goat, though. That was his fee. And they would dig.

01:35:26

And he would say to them, if any of you has any doubt, it'll move the treasure. The spirit of the plates will move the treasure.

01:35:35

And they, of course, would never find anything. And he'd say, who doubted? And somebody would raise their hand. See, you're the reason. And so this is the kind of occult stuff that he would do.

01:35:42

He'd look into a hat with a stone and get the translation of the Book of Mormon, which he never had.

01:35:49

Anyway, it's a lot of occult stuff in Mormonism. I know that we cannot read hearts and minds.

01:35:58

But do you think that Joseph Smith's false teachings were perpetually and ongoing for the entirety of his life before he was murdered?

01:36:12

A conscious charade? Or do you think that by demonic powers, he came to believe in the things he was teaching?

01:36:21

Either one of those is possible. He may have been given over to the depravity of his heart and mind, as Romans 1, 26, 28 can talk about.

01:36:30

I believe he knew it was a sham. He made it up. And in that book I mentioned is the account of how it got started, where he had found some filtered sand at the tree trunk after a rainstorm.

01:36:42

And he brought it home in his shirt, up in his shirt by his belly. And his sister said, what is that?

01:36:48

And he said, it's the golden plates. And she believed him. And he was shocked that she would believe him. So she started saying he has the golden plates.

01:36:55

Well, he's going to make stuff up. And this is how it got started. People were just ready to believe lies because they weren't believing the truth of God's word.

01:37:03

And there's lots of stories. One of my good friends is Bill McKeever, and he's one of the world class.

01:37:09

I've had Bill on the show. Yeah, I've known Bill for decades. And so I'll talk to Bill about it and go over his house and we'll do stuff and he'll tell me stories.

01:37:19

And I go, OK, Bill, what about this? You know, and so he knows everything about it.

01:37:25

And along with Eric Johnson. So I've had Eric on the show, too. Well, we have to go to Eric.

01:37:31

Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, I was just going to say, go ahead. Eric and I are going to go do a

01:37:36

Bible lands tour next in April. At any rate, that's it. We have to go to our final break right now.

01:37:42

And we will try to get to as many of our listener questions as possible. And keep in mind that my guest today has to leave five minutes early so he can do his own podcast.

01:37:54

So his own radio show. I'm sorry. So we'll be right back after these messages.

01:37:59

Please don't go away. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

01:38:18

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.

01:38:27

Dr. Joe Morecraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

01:38:35

Going back to 2005. One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

01:38:40

Dr. Joe Morecraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Morecraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank.

01:38:49

Since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters. Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the

01:38:57

Atlanta metropolitan area. Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards.

01:39:04

And Dr. Joe Morecraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:39:10

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.

01:39:17

And tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers.

01:39:28

Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the

01:39:35

Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

01:39:41

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

01:39:46

Or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831.

01:39:54

If you visit, have them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland, send you.

01:40:07

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

01:40:14

ReformRookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

01:40:23

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

01:40:33

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

01:40:40

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnson has on the show.

01:40:49

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

01:40:55

Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the ReformRookie .com

01:41:01

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

01:41:08

Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the

01:41:14

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

01:41:24

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

01:41:29

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

01:41:34

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

01:41:56

SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

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That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

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That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

01:43:28

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron radio on the air.

01:43:37

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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01:44:39

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:44:50

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

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First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia. And the NASB is my

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York.

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas.

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

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Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

01:46:43

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

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01:46:59

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

01:47:10

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

01:47:16

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

01:47:28

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. And let me quickly remind our listeners that you've been hearing ads every day for over a year, a couple of years now, from the

01:47:43

Historical Bible Society. Please don't forget that the Historical Bible Society is founded by Daniel P.

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Badafuco, attorney at law, who is a serious injury and medical malpractice attorney.

01:47:57

And he is a crucial sponsor of this program who just renewed his advertising contract.

01:48:03

I want to thank Dan from the bottom of my heart and thank God for Dan for the renewal of his advertising contract.

01:48:11

And for more details, if you yourself or someone that you know has been involved in a serious accident or medical malpractice, wherever they live in the

01:48:21

United States, you can either call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit the website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,

01:48:30

1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Please, very important, mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:48:38

And Matt, we have a listener in Glasgow, Kentucky.

01:48:46

His name is Brody. And Brody says, isn't it true that the

01:48:52

Reformed hero A .W. Pink, before he became a Christian, was involved in the occult?

01:48:58

I happen to know that is true immediately because I read The Life of Arthur W.

01:49:05

Pink by E .H. Murray, which is a Banner of Truth book. And, in fact,

01:49:12

A .W. Pink, beloved by most Calvinists, said that things he experienced and witnessed when he was involved in the occult, the supernatural from the dark side, could not be explained away as merely parlor tricks, as they used to call them.

01:49:31

Do you share my knowledge of this with A .W. Pink? You sound correct.

01:49:40

And, you know, too bad he's gone, but I would like to have talked to him and compared notes, because I'd even tell you some of the stuff that I've seen when we got more involved.

01:49:49

But it's real. You can see stuff. You can be touched by demonic forces, oppressed, even as Christians.

01:49:56

It's alive and well, and we Christians need to be well -equipped about it. In fact, I'll be preaching on this on Sunday down in Provo, Utah, actually.

01:50:04

Well, that's a great place for you to be preaching, obviously. I believe there's more Mormons in Provo than in Salt Lake City, aren't there?

01:50:12

I think so, yeah. We're going to go down to the Salt Lake City LDS General Conference, do some witnessing, and go down to Sunday preach, come back home, you know.

01:50:24

Okay, we have an anonymous listener who says,

01:50:30

Your personal testimony of salvation contained a lot of supernatural things that could be considered subjective realities and not objective, and people who are involved in the occult can make the same kind of claims.

01:50:47

Don't we always have to base our experience, no matter how real it may seem to us, on the

01:50:54

Scriptures as our final authority? Absolutely correct. And I subject even that great experience, most profound experience

01:51:03

I've ever had in my life, I subject it to Scripture. Nothing in the Bible says that what happened couldn't happen, and we can get rid of that.

01:51:10

But I never offer it as proof. People just say, how did you get converted? I just say, that's how I got converted. I don't say it's proof of anything.

01:51:18

That's just it. How do I know? I don't know how I knew. I just knew. That's just all it is, and that's it.

01:51:25

And I believe God did that for me because of what I'd be doing for a living and getting involved so deeply with this stuff that I had to have something anchored in me.

01:51:34

Well, I know that you have to leave early. I'm sorry. I apologize to all of our listeners still waiting to have their questions answered. We don't have time because my guest has to leave early.

01:51:42

But can you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today? Follow the

01:51:48

Lord Jesus Christ and study him. As Romans 12, 1 and 2 says, be transformed by the knowing of your mind, which is a spiritual service of worship.

01:51:56

Spiritual service of worship, spiritual is lokiakos, has to do with mental. So God wants us to know and wants us to learn.

01:52:04

We're transformed by the knowing of our mind, not our hearts. Jesus says in Matthew 22, 37, love the

01:52:11

Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, or strength in mind. So think, study

01:52:18

God's word, be on your knees, pray, read, and don't believe everything that you're told, especially from a guy on the radio like myself named

01:52:27

Slick. You can't trust that. So you have to.

01:52:32

Just never name one of your sons Willie. Just please don't do that. So, yeah, just study his word.

01:52:41

And I'd love to teach his word to people. And if you have more questions, I'm not trying to drum away free, but you can call me up on my show.

01:52:47

I'll be on in about 10 minutes. Why don't you give your phone number? Yeah, sure.

01:52:53

It's 877 -207 -2276.

01:52:59

So it's 877 -207 -2276. You go to karm .org forward slash radio and you have information there.

01:53:08

And so I got an hour. It's on several stations, many stations, and we'll see. And on Fridays I do hate mail.

01:53:14

Oh, great. I do hate mail and whack mail. I love hate mail. I love hate mail. I just love it.

01:53:22

I always wished I had more hate mail. Well, I can teach you how to get hate mail if you want.

01:53:30

Well, I thank you so much for squeezing Iron Trump and Zion Radio into your busy schedule knowing that you have to go on the air in minutes.

01:53:38

And we look forward to your return, Matt. And God bless you. You too. Thanks for having me.

01:53:43

And anytime. It's a lot of fun. We can talk all kinds of stuff. I'll definitely have fun with you. All right, brother.

01:53:50

God bless you. And I thank all of our listeners who also recommended Matt to be on the show.

01:53:55

And I want to use this remaining time to remind our listeners about the

01:54:03

Iron Trump and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon that is going to be held next week,

01:54:11

Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. It is only for men in ministry leadership.

01:54:18

That's pastors, elders, deacons, people who are parachurch ministry leaders.

01:54:24

And keep in mind, I believe that pastors and elders are the same thing, but not all churches do. And we have as the keynote speaker at this free event,

01:54:35

Jeff Noblitt, who is the pastor of Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

01:54:43

He is truly, without exaggeration, in my opinion, one of the most powerful preachers in the

01:54:49

United States, if not the world today. And he also has a burden on his heart to help men in ministry leadership, pastors all over the world, who he knows can at times be struggling financially.

01:55:09

His church supports men all over the world, and it's a blessing to see so many of them fly at the expense of Grace Life Church of the

01:55:19

Shoals. To Alabama, to their conference every year. And it is truly a joy.

01:55:27

So that will be 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., Thursday, October 5th, at the

01:55:35

Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. That's L -O -Y -S -V -I -L -L -E.

01:55:43

If you are a man in ministry leadership, and you would like to attend this event, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com, and put

01:55:51

Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. In fact, invite other men that you know, as long as I have a final headcount from you by Monday, October 2nd.

01:56:05

So that is the free Iron Trip and Zion Radio biannual

01:56:11

Pastor's Luncheon featuring Jeff Knoblet of Grace Life Church of the Shoals. Next week,

01:56:17

Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Also, a neighboring church to the one where I am a member,

01:56:28

Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. They are having an event during the two days following my

01:56:35

Pastor's Luncheon on Friday and Saturday, October 6th and 7th.

01:56:42

They are having Patty Height speak there, and she is a woman who was formerly enslaved by lesbianism and also gender confusion.

01:56:57

It would be cool today, although the term didn't exist when she was growing up, gender dysphoria.

01:57:04

And she is going to be talking about how God mercifully rescued her out of that enslavement, and she no longer has same -sex attraction.

01:57:19

That is something to definitely rejoice over. I have had her on the program. If you go to IronTripandZionRadio .com

01:57:25

and you type in the search engine Patty, P -A -T -T -I, she spells it with an

01:57:32

I, or if you type in Height, just like you would normally spell Height as opposed to Width, H -E -I -G -H -T, you will be able to hear that interview, which

01:57:45

I was fascinated by. She is a dear sister in Christ, and I look forward to attending that two -day event myself and meeting her in person, a wonderful lady.

01:57:56

Also, I want to give a shout -out to two wonderful people that you have heard about on this program.

01:58:05

In fact, you have heard the wife of this couple on my program.

01:58:11

Her name is Rosaria Butterfield. Her husband is Kent Butterfield, who is pastor of the

01:58:17

First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham, North Carolina. I want to thank them so much.

01:58:25

While I was traveling back from Atlanta, Georgia, to Pennsylvania, I made an overnight stop in Durham, North Carolina, and Rosaria and her husband warmly welcomed me into their home, where I shared breakfast with them before worship service on that Sunday, this past Sunday, and then attended worship with them.

01:58:50

I was so blessed by the experience. Rosaria gave me an autographed copy of her new book,

01:58:59

Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age, and she is going to be a guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio on Friday, October 13th, so mark your calendars for that.

01:59:10

She has been on the program before, but she will be on again to discuss the brand -new book. I hope all of you have a safe, joyful, and Christ -honoring weekend in Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater