April 7, 2017 Show with Greg Koukl on “The Story of Reality: How the World Began, How it Ends, & Everything Important that Happens in Between”

The Program’s Opening and Iron Sharpens Iron Introduction

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday.

I'm sorry Friday Friday on the 7th day of April 2017 and I am really discombobulated because I just returned from Indianapolis, Indiana For the three-day conference. I was at the gospel coalition conference and Was very blessed by a number of things.

There were a number of very good messages there. There were a number of things said that disturbed me to be perfectly honest with you, but there are also first and foremost some wonderful opportunities for fellowship that I had with Listeners of iron sharpens iron that I have never met or heard from before.

And also to do some on-site interviews with new acquaintances and old friends and some Guests on iron sharpens iron that I have interviewed many times by phone, but who I had never met in person. So the entire event was a blessed event for me when you Outweigh the when the the positives outweigh the negatives.

But the the traveling aspect was certainly not one of my favorite things to do and I'm still recuperating from that hence me The fact that I gave the wrong day and the beginning of the program here.

Well, it is your first day back on the air. So it seemed like Monday.

Yes, and in studio with me is my co-host reverend buzz Taylor. It's great to have you back. Thank you and Today we have returning to iron sharpens iron radio a guest who hasn't been with us for a while but I'm so glad that he is back on the program.

Greg Coco. And Greg is a speaker on more than 70 college and university campuses both in the United States and abroad. He's hosted his own local call-in radio show for 27 years advocating Christianity worth thinking about.

He's a debater including opponents such as Michael Shermer who's an atheist on national radio and Deepak Chopra on national television on Lee Strobel's faith under fire. He's an award-winning writer and best-selling author including tactics again a game plan for discussing young Christian convictions and relativism.

Feet firmly and planted in midair. Featured guest on focus on the family radio CBN and BBC. An adjunct professor in Christian apologetics at Biola University and founder and president of stand to reason.

Greg is going to be speaking on Long Island, New York at a conference coming up that I'm looking forward to continue to promote. This is the New York apologetics conference and we'll discuss more details about that and very shortly during our interview.

But today we are going to be talking about the story of reality how the world began how it ends and everything Important that happens in between and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Greg cocoa.

Hey boys, it's good to be back with you. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Yes, and I appreciate you praying for me Greg because I could barely make it through the introduction. I'm feeling so worn out. By The way, I was a moderator at a debate that Michael Shermer Had with Frank Turek who I know it.

Well, I know is one of the speakers at the upcoming conference with my apologetics and. And some of our listeners may even remember the fact that Greg Cokel was the moderator between a Debate that my dear friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries had with George Bryson of Calvary Chapel.

Oh, that's right, and so I know that a lot of my listeners are also a Very enthusiastic followers of dr. White's ministry and they listen to his dividing line program and so on. But before we go into the book the story of reality and then before we go into Some more details about the conference.

I want you to tell our listeners something about you personally. What the religion of your upbringing was if any and how Providentially our sovereign Lord drew you to himself and and saved you.

From Roman Catholicism to Faith in Christ

Well, you know, it's interesting you bring this up because I was just my high school and she was out. Keeping that came up that's wrong and just like a lot going to church every Sunday a holy day of obligation doing all the routine.

And even kind of when people would ask me about it I'd give the kind of party line why I thought was my girl from a Catholicism and the question She asked me was do you really believe that? And it was something about the way she asked the question back in 1968 I think it was that that set me back a little bit.

She wasn't challenging my views. She was genuinely committed I was to them and I realized that I didn't believe any of that stuff that what I had been parroting Was what I had been raised with but now as a young adult I wasn't behind that at all and that was my turning point when I left Catholicism and from my perspective Christianity behind of the dust and it wasn't until five years later.

Now I'm not in Illinois anymore now. I'm out of the West and My younger brother Mark who was two years my junior had become a Christian during the Jesus movement and he started Sharing the Lord with me and I thought I had heard I had never heard the message of grace and when I heard The message of grace took me months and months of as guarding my brother then coming back, you know and asking more questions.

And you know, I'm apologists now. I Defend the faith I keep reading the smart monies on Jesus. But the irony in my case fellows was that there was no entered into my own conversion. I just progressively got the sense deep in my heart that this message about Jesus of Nazareth and the grace of until September 28, 1973 when I made a commitment and That's lady that I was told you about that.

I talked to yesterday now I never got the girl back, you know, but but God got me in the process. But that was God's sovereign hand in my life and he's been moving in my life ever since.

I'll praise God. I was also raised Roman Catholic and and the Lord saved me and I'm very delighted to Proclaim to the world that I am a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace and have you know have been a born-again believer since 1984.

I believe it was and have been in Reformed Baptist churches ever since and The book that we are discussing today. It's interesting that this book is only about. Let's see how many pages it is. It's all just about 200 pages, right?

And this book's title would lend you to believe it should be about five hundred thousand pages. The story of reality how the world began how it ends and everything important that happens in between.

Well, the original book is like six of that by that that covers that material books long, you know. So yeah, it's a lot of The rescue for everything. Yes, right. That happens in between and so that allows me to trim it down to the really Fundamental basics the things we've got to know.

That really make it eternal. Difference have eternal consequences, right? Yes, and that's why.

We can we can use almost the same retort to our friends who mock and and laugh at the doctrine of sola scriptura that we who are Bible believing Providence Protestants believe that the Bible alone is our soul inerrant and infallible source of authority and.

And they will say are you kidding me you only use the Bible. There are a lot of things that Bibles don't address but It's the only it's only the important things that are salvific things. We need to know that in the Bible.

Yeah, you know something I mentioned in the book and this is where it said The Bible is not exhaustive truth. In other words that to with one of the things that I've always about making the case for Christianity The Bible is true to the way the world is there are that's the classical definition of truth your ideas match which means if you pay attention to what's going on to the Bible you're going to see a Kind of a again that matchup coming from the other direction and I say in the beginning of the book the story of reality I say, you know, there's some by looking at the clues.

All right, just paying attention to the world. We can figure out some things on a row. We can be knows that we also know what I mean. You don't need revelation. To be able to know that what you what revelation God's revelation does is and that's why I say in the book some things Some things you can figure out on your own.

But something the author has to tell you and and that's what I do. Strengthens our case when we can say, you know this thing that the Bible talks about you already know What's true even if the even if you didn't read the Bible you already know that the human beings in the way the world is.

Amen. Well, I'm gonna give our email address for those of our listeners who want to Contribute to the program with a question of their own. It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the good old USA, please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter and We look forward to hearing from you with your questions.

Why the World Began Matters for the Gospel

Well, you know there is a very important thing that you address how the world began and There are some Christians who will actually say that isn't one of the important things. There are a lot of Christians who will say As long as you love and lift up Jesus.

That's all that matters. And they'll say these things that like the how the world began and all these other things. They're really just trivia. We really don't need to know them. But it isn't isn't your view of how the world began affect a lot of other things that you believe in very radical ways.

Take the message like that. Well, certainly I'm not going to truncate the whole thing, you know, the most important are. You know hunk of it art for them to me. He saves us if there was no fall. The young if a boy looks at it starts out saying well once upon a nose.

He's not gonna get an answer to because he doesn't want a fairy. Right. He wants to know how that real we get a wound. All right, it's a real wound. How did we get that wound? That is what a story tells us.

And if there if the Genesis it's not telling us about anything. There is no foundation for the story. Francis Schaeffer made this point. If we have always been this way. Then there is no whoever. If we were one way.

If the world was right at one time and then it got broken. Well, that means it could get fixed. And if humans were right at one time and then it got broken. Then it can get fixed and see. All of these things are reasons why we must take those early chapters of Genesis.

Now there is a.

Debate even amongst a Bible believing Christians sometimes even amongst brothers in Christ in the same Pew let alone the same congregation or denomination over the age of the earth I have. I have friends on both sides of that debate.

Probably have more friends that are young earth creationists. That's what I am. But I do but I do have old earth friends on the program even I've recently interviewed my friend Ken samples Formerly out of the Christian Research Institute who is with reasons to believe he's a good man.

Yes. How do we how do we? Really determine when that disagreement becomes very dangerous.

Well, I think it's not that theologically dangerous for the young earth people, but it's dangerous Depending on the reasons that you are old comes along with the pack committed to I mean the big package if they're committed to the Darwinian See now you've got a real serious problem with the fall of man Adam and Eve if if you get violated God's law and we are all fallen now in Adam and we are all Under condemnation because there was a real a real wound that happened in the human race.

Well, then I think you're okay I think you can move theologically along in a really matter but if you if your commitment and there are there are quite an Increasingly number of those and the older Indian naturalistic Development of life.

Well now you've got a problem. They're not in the picture. Well, there was no Adam and Eve now you just you just stepped off the road. So that's the thing. It's one thing to say the universe is old. Okay.

It's another thing to say that. Or there are just some kind of the fall of man in some general. But the fall is no longer a historical event in the past then you're off the reserve. We have.

Apologetic Method and Presuppositions

Casey who's originally from the Philippines, but now living in Kannapolis, North Carolina. He has two questions. The first is how does your theology affect your apologetic methodology when defending? The Bible and sharing the gospel with unbelievers.

Well, I I think lurking behind that question is is the question about presupposition. I'm assuming that I.

Presume that.

Here I don't know your own convictions, but I'm not a Presuppositionalist and let me just give without getting into a big let me just offer my own just approaching this for me. What I try to do, what's the issue of apologetics.

Functionally we engage other people and you know I have a commitment to it. This is background Theology to my whole approach, you know, I trust in the Lord for everything. Okay on this one.

However.

What I try to do functionally the way my apologetics play out is I try to mimic the behavior and actually the Hebrew prophets Insofar as they they spoke evidential term. I see this Put one's trusted when people see me doing.

I wanted to Not be dissimilar to what Jesus did or what sound like those guys. So regardless of kind of my philosophical all of that if if what I'm actually doing is The behavior of the disciples in Jesus and the weight and I'm actually trusting in the Spirit of God to make the difference.

Amen, yes, I happen to be more bent towards the presuppositional apologetic. But I can say that some of my heroes of the Christian faith Were and are evidentialists like dr. R. C. Sproul's an evidentialist, right and the late dr. John Gerstner Right was an evidentialist.

In fact, they even contributed together on a book Critiquing presuppositionalism, right? So obviously I'm not going to Ban all friends and acquaintances who are who are evidentialist but Casey In Kannapolis, North Carolina.

Thank you very much for the questions. Oh, he has one more question. I'm sorry. Do you consider yourself to be a Calvinist or is this topic you'd like to avoid? Oh, I'm sorry. It says well, where's this a topic you'd like to do part study on?

Oh this like a Lutheran is someone who theologically follows so you could be reformed and not be a Calvinist. There may be things that that I disagree with about the language here. And what I mean by that is that I believe in sovereign grace.

I'm reformed to my soteriology. I'm not fully confessional. But to me that the big and this is one that I'm happy to talk with people about. In fact Friday morning at 630 the Morning, I'm going to be visiting a men's Bible study of my own community.

Rowdy. And once it gets rowdy, that's what I'm willing to back off one on your own, you know, but. But so I'm glad to talk about those. The other reason I don't is there's a little bit of it occurred in some people's minds.

So, you know, I just refer to who are knowledgeable know that that. What that. Yeah.

I think that we will find difficulty with nearly any kind of label we can put on ourselves. Even calling yourself a Bible-believing Christian Can be too innocuous in a day and age when really people who are in cults Will say that their Bible-believing Christians.

And yeah, I I use the nickname Calvinist Although I do not believe in everything that Calvin believed or taught. I am a Baptist and a reformed Baptist. But I don't I don't have any problem with my brethren in Christ that choose not to use that label.

I even know Sovereign grace-believing brothers in Christ that don't want to use the label reformed either. So it really depends on how Specific you want to be and how willing you are to make explanation when people Misunderstand the label you're using.

Right. No, you're right about that. I mean sooner or later. You got to use a label just because that helps to organize things, but sometimes sir.

Well, thank you Casey for your questions and Greg before I even asked your question about the age of the earth. He already answered that one so Give me your full mailing address so we can have a copy of the story of reality by Greg Koukl Shipped out to you as our gift to you compliments not only of our friends at Greg Koukl's ministry stand a reason but also Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

That's CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm CV BBS calm. We'll be shipping that out to you free of charge to you and also free of charge to our interpreters on radio. Thank you very much Casey and keep spreading the word in, North Carolina and beyond.

I'll tell you what I will read a question to you before we go on a break and then you can then you could answer it when we you Return from the break and I understand that you have to change phone lines when we go to the right.

Okay. Well, here is the question from Let's see, who is Scott From Bryan, Ohio says, please ask your guest how he suggests Christians can discuss eschatology with skeptics who argue that even we believers cannot agree about the end times and They'll say that about a lot of different subjects not that just the end times.

They'll say that we have disagreements about a lot of things. But anyway, you could you could answer that when we return from the break and I will also Disconnect you so that you can call back on a different phone.

Okay. Yeah. All right, great and For those of you who would also like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state and Country of residence if you live outside of the USA, don't go away.

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Eschatology, Skeptics, and the Importance of the Return of Christ

Welcome back. This is Chris arms. And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Greg Koukl. Who is founder and president of stand to reason? We are discussing the story of reality how the world began how it ends and everything important that happens in between.

We're also going to be discussing the 2017 New York apologetics conference in Smithtown, Long Island, New York where Greg is going to be one of the featured speakers before the break. We had a question that we read to you from Scott in Brian, Ohio, please ask your guests how he suggests Christians can discuss eschatology with skeptics who argue that even we Believers cannot agree about the end times and basically you could say that about anything.

How do you address a skeptic who says you Christians can't believe agree on anything? You can't agree on baptism. You can't agree on presuppositional ism versus evidential ism. You can't agree on Calvinism versus Arminian ism.

You can't agree on tongues versus cessation ism and all all kinds of things. Yeah. Well, there's two things going on here.

Take you know. You want a major in the majors and eschatology in my view is not a major you want my eschatology here. It is a whole bunch of people get hurt. There it is, you know, I mean I could I worry but largely this is what matters I think for me about the you know Jesus coming back and he's mad, you know that The body of Christ frankly for me to keep so that when and that's what matters.

There's more big people. So why are we messing around? Major the majors here quality of Jesus as a man of history and God becoming a man and the Accomplished on the cryptic. Well, I'm certain that I'm just not to keep us busy there, you know, right?

I'm certain I'm certain you would agree. One eschatological thing that we should Address with every skeptic is the fact that he or she is going to die and be facing either a savior or a judge.

How that all plays out how the history unfolds to get a final judgment the details, you know. Well, you guys can't agree on it agree on anything. There would be thing that could be classified as Amen. Amen.

I that label that cat qualifies them that identifies Foundational things and if you deny one of those found a be some other great room It might even be true. All I'm saying is from foundation in that regard Christians to disagree.

So disregard dick, right? Yeah, I'm a skeptic and I'm complaining about your Christian. It's more than one kind of skeptic and a Darwinist are you. Do you realize that in all of the things the theological spectrum there are who are fundamentalists like Richard Dawkins?

You could have uh, you know PE guys like punctuated. I think they call the punk eat ID guys. They're all fighting among themselves. So does the fact that people differ about details mean that nobody can be right, right?

It's also a sign that the Bible is true. That he who says he is without sin is a liar. And since we are all even in the Christian faith Guilty of sin and we are fallible and we are finite. We don't know all truth.

We are not perfected until we were in heaven.

Then obviously there's going to be disagreements. Yeah, absolutely. And this isn't just within Christian circles. This is a human problem. Not a Christian right. And so when I was in my debate debating side by side Mike Ray the same I said Mike that's it or even in the particular things the fact of the proper right, right?

In fact, I.

Arranged a debate years ago that took place between my friend. Dr. James R. White and David Silverman the current president of American Atheists the organization founded by Madeline Murray. Oh hair. And after at the end of that debate David Silverman said that he wanted to debate James White on The on the fact according to his views that Jesus Really is nothing but a product of mythical religion and When I tried to schedule that debate with mr. Silverman, he was in Europe and could not participate.

I was calling other atheists very well-known atheists among the four horsemen and so on to challenge them to debate on that theme and None of those that I spoke to would because they said well no atheist worth assault believes That Jesus did not exist.

Nobody believes that anymore. They were saying to me that we believe he existed, but we don't believe he was God obviously, right? So obviously there is so that shows you that even about the question of Christ There are differences of opinion among atheists.

That's absolutely right now.

There are some atheists who do say he didn't exist, but that's drivel. That's just who say he. Exhibit the idea that nobody believes that. Now Michael Shermer does and and you know. You'll get all kinds of kind of pop.

Just came up and he burned. Everybody started laughing when I said that the account of Jesus in any way. If you don't and sanitize it, don't you? Expected the Messiah to die right. Much less rise from the yet.

I mean, this was not even in their expectations. So this is this is bad PR. One thing I noticed. But regarding that point through his writings and by the way, the Apostle Paul's writings are not a dispute.

They knew that that smart. Well, he's repeating all of these things. Detailed biographies writing theology based on For Jesus being the man that we understand him to be for any credentialed historian.

Yes, and if you did not know that Bart Ehrman was an agnostic and you happen to be watching one of these Of Television specials that they air every Christmas and Easter about the life of Jesus and they'll always throw in People who don't even believe that he is God like Bart Ehrman and others people from the Jesus seminar.

If you hear Bart Ehrman strictly speaking about the history the history and The archaeology and so on surrounding the days of Christ You would think this man's a Christian, you know, he's just giving a historical account.

It's not until he specifically starts attacking The reliability of the New Testament manuscripts and other things. That's when you realize that he is an agnostic.

But well, this is good because we what we have though is we have a somebody. Nobody who knows what they're talking and it's not help our cause here. You got Bart Ehrman. It's making them. Amen Bart Ehrman.

Amen, well, thank you Scott. In Brian, Ohio, you are also getting a free copy of the book the story of reality by Greg Kochel Compliments of stand to reason and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We'll be shipping that out to you. So keep your eye open for a package with a label on it that says CV BBS CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service dot-com CV BBS dot-com and We thank you for contributing to today's show with a question.

We have a Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York Who says should we as Christians show the unbeliever the fallenness in their worldview and then? Present the gospel or do different situations require different approaches in regards to evangelism, I.

Agree, I might I make the case probably the best case. We've got Nicodemus turn the page quite Fallen woman there, you know, I think Paul gives really good conduct yourselves to the opportunity. Then he says different kinds of things standing in the way of them be that that just to see what whatever that we talked about Outlines and a pro-wisdom in a nice way.

I just found that to be true. Amen.

Well, thank you Tyler and you are also getting a free copy of the story of reality by Greg Koukl. So, please give us your name your full name and address and we'll have that shipped out to you. We have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with your own questions Send in an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back God willing with Greg Koukl. One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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