In light of the recent incidents, what should be my attitude toward the police? -Podcast Episode 145

Welcome to the Got Questions podcast.

There's been, over the past several years, a lot of incidents in the news that

involved police and, to say it lightly,

questionable either shootings or arrests, those type of things.

And I've been getting quite a few questions about this and usually they're along the lines of, can I trust the police,

especially those who've lived their whole lives where the police are looked upon negatively.

Do I have to submit to police officers, those sorts of questions.

So today we have a special guest, Ryan Tillman.

He is the founder of Breaking Barriers United.

And I'm actually not going to go into the intro any more than that, because I just want Ryan to share a little bit about his background, his story,

because it's an amazing story.

So Ryan, take it away.

Tell our listeners who you are and what God's call on your life is.

Hey man, thanks for having me, man.

It's a true honor and pleasure to be here.

It's a privilege, actually.

And honestly, the reason I'm on this podcast today is just another affirmation that I'm walking

in the footsteps of what the Lord has called me to do in my life.

A little bit of background about me.

I'm from Southern California, grew up in a city named Rialto, and I went to high school there and had

two phenomenal parents who raised me pretty well.

After I graduated from high school, I went on to college and played football at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

So I'm a running rebel.

And once I got done playing football and graduating, I thought I was going to come home and become a

successful CEO and businessman like everybody else.

And so I graduated, moved back home, met my wife while I was actually in school and she's from

Southern California.

And so we got married and then after about a year being married, she got pregnant.

And so once she got pregnant, it was kind of like a turning point for me because I wasn't really working.

I think I was working at Abercrombie Fitch as an assistant manager, which I

hated.

It was one of the worst jobs ever.

And then I was selling in life insurance as well, which was another

terrible job.

But when my wife got pregnant, I was like, I got to do something more with my life.

And so I prayed about it.

And well, actually before that, I had my dad's best friend was a police captain at a local police

agency from where I'm from.

And so he approached me many, many times saying, Ryan, you should be a police officer.

And I was like, man, I don't want to do that.

I said, I'm not working for the man.

I don't want to be a pig.

That was my mentality, sadly, just because I grew up not really liking police officers, having

some bad interactions with them, my family members having bad interactions with them.

So when he approached me about that opportunity, I was like, no, there's no way I'm going to be doing that.

I thought I was going to be a sellout and all this other stuff.

And so it's amazing what happens when the fire is underneath your butt and you got to provide and

you got to be the sole provider or not the sole provider, but you got to be the provider for your family.

And so I prayed about it.

I said, God, if this is what you want me to do, open the door, if not close the door.

And the door just kind of flew open.

So I was hired shortly thereafter by the Chino police department, went to the

academy where I graduated number two overall in my class.

And the interesting part about it is even when I was in the academy and even when I graduated, I still didn't feel

like this is what I wanted to do with my life.

And so shortly after that, I got off of training.

And that's when Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson.

And I really felt that was the first time in my career that I had felt like a shame to be a police

officer because I was like, man, I don't want to be a part of what everybody's calling me, us bullies and

abusers and stuff.

And so that's when one day I literally remember waking up and God literally implanted this

blueprint on my heart about how He wanted me to change the profession.

And one of the things that He said is He said, I want you to change the face of modern day policing.

And so He had put this whole plan on my heart about going out there, educating people

on what we do, why we do it and how we do it.

And He said, I'll take care of the rest.

And so that was in 2015 -ish.

And man, let me tell you, when you answer the call of God on your life, it's crazy what doors will open.

And so I've been, I've been running my organization, Breaking Barriers United for the last, you know, almost eight

to nine years.

And the whole sole purpose is bridging that gap between law enforcement and the community.

And so it's been a phenomenal ride and journey.

So for me, a white male, who my only negative interaction with

police have been when they're giving me a traffic ticket for something I desperately deserved.

I don't have the same experience that a lot of other people do.

What do you say to people who, similar to you, who either through reputation or through the reality of

things they've experienced, they have a very negative view of the police department?

And when I look at scripture, say Romans 13 and some other passages that tell us to, we are to submit to the

governing authorities, and that includes the police department.

What do you tell to people, both Christians and to an extent non

-Christians, that how do you bridge that gap, so to speak, in learning to

trust the police, recognizing they are performing a very difficult and a very important

role?

I know it's extremely difficult for those who have had negative experiences.

Absolutely.

So if we look at this subject through a biblical lens, then it should be easy.

And the reason I say it should be easy is because we are to act Christlike.

And part of being Christlike is to being accountable to our actions, acting with

grace, acting with mercy, all these different things.

And so if we look at this through a spiritual lens, then race should even be a factor.

And that's one of the things as I've grown in my walk of Christ, I've realized when I talk to other believers,

I'm like, look, hey, if you're looking through this through a spiritual lens, race shouldn't even be a factor.

Even if you feel like the officer was racist towards you, does that authorize us to

react in a way that's not godly?

And so from a spiritual lens, we have to be able to hold ourselves accountable, be able to not

be quickly to anger.

We are as we slow to anger and be wise in our speech.

But if I'm talking to somebody who's not necessarily walking with the Lord, I have to make sure that

I'm empathetic to what they're experiencing or what they're feeling.

And I also look at that as my opportunity to show Christ to them.

So is there racism in law enforcement?

That's always been a huge question.

Well, you have to realize or what people have to realize is that we live in a fallen state.

That's the reason why Christ came is because there's men by nature have a sinful nature.

And if you're not following Christ, then we live in a broken world.

And law enforcement is not exempt from that.

But you can go to any other profession, whether it's broken pastors, you can go to school teachers,

doctors, you name it.

Because we live in a broken world, you're going to find sin with that.

And because of that, there is racist people in law enforcement, but it's not to the extent of what people think.

And sadly, what's also been happening is that this racial agenda has been overtaken as if

that's the norm when it's not the norm.

Anytime police officers utilize force, there's usually a reason that's associated to that force.

And so for them to automatically associate to race, I think is wrong.

We have to come back to the reality of that person that was stopped.

Did they do something to put themselves in a situation that caused officers to utilize force?

And if they put themselves in a situation that caused officers to utilize force, then that's what we should be

arguing about as opposed to whether or not an officer stopped them because of the color of their skin.

Now, the reality of whether or not it was excessive force or reasonable force, that's a different argument.

Yeah.

So obviously the most recent incident has been the Tyree Nichols

tragedy.

And I've heard some of the things that you've said.

What are your observations in what happened there?

And when something like that happens,

what's the appropriate degree that we can protest?

We have to do everything we can to prevent stuff like that from happening.

While not, I hate this phrase, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater in terms of rejecting the entire

value of the police because of some extremely bad apples, so to speak.

Yeah.

So first and foremost, we have to start with the reality.

And the reality of that situation is that it was wrong on all levels.

Those officers had no justification to utilize the level of force that they did against Tyree Nichols.

And so we have to start with that.

Now, as far as the bigger, the layers to it, and this was a very layered case.

And what's interesting about this case is that it went completely against the cultural norm or at least

the agenda that the media had out with usually typically it's a white officer, quote

unquote, abusing a black man or something like that.

And so this was different.

And so the scarier part about this one is that it made people beg the question, well,

does this justify systematic issues and law enforcement in and of itself?

And I always tell people, first and foremost, we have to, we have to separate all this stuff as far as it being a systematic issue.

And we have to focus, focus on this isolated situation.

Now there are other, there's other information that has come out about the situation that

shows that this was probably a more personal attack on Tyree Nichols, as opposed to just some officers that just went

rogue and decided to beat a guy up.

It doesn't justify their actions by any means, but it definitely explains why we see the behavior that we saw.

These officers were completely out of control.

They're in their emotions.

And this was not, in my approach, a systematic issue in a sense that that department is all corrupt.

And so can we make improvements to the overall system law enforcement becomes a question.

Yes.

I always tell people like the moment we stop trying to improve the professional law enforcement is the moment we start to go

backwards.

The question becomes is where do we make those improvements?

Well, you know, we had a movement a few years ago, defund the police.

That's the last thing you want to do.

So you want to add more funding, add more training, and also add more, you got to go.

Out and find the right people to patrol the streets.

So tell our listeners a little bit more about Breaking Barriers United.

What is it that you guys do?

And what's, what are some of the impacts that you're seeing?

Give me a couple of examples of how you've been able to change some people's thinking

on whether it's defund the police or what sort of

issues the police need.

To be focusing on and maybe a different way.

Yeah.

So Breaking Barriers United, like I said earlier, was an organization that was started to bridge the gap between law

enforcement and community.

So initially when we started, I was out in churches educating, especially particularly black churches at the time,

educating people about the professional law enforcement.

And in that discussion, we touched on why we do what we do, how we do what we do, and what we do.

I recognized early on that a lot of that, that large part of that gap that we all talk about, you know, we all say bridging the

gap.

Well, what is that gap?

Typically what I recognize is that gap tends to be a lack of education about our profession.

And the only one to really blame on that is law enforcement itself.

I mean, we've done a terrible job educating the public on what we do, why we do it, and how we

do it.

When I got into this job, I will never forget, you know, going on calls for service and, you know, let's just say,

you know, we stopped somebody for driving a stolen vehicle.

And so we do a high risk traffic stop where all the guns are out.

And so you have all these people looking at us that, you know, got guns pointed at, you know, people coming out of

cars.

Sometimes there might be kids involved.

And so we would handle our business.

And then once we handle it, we would typically wrap things up and we would just leave.

Well, what's the problem with that is like, you have a whole community that's just got done watching you take people out with

guns and there's no explanation.

And so what I started learning early on is I would always, you know, once the situation was what we

like to say code four, which was means the situation was okay, I would go talk to the people.

Hey, look, you know, we had this guy that was driving a stolen vehicle, possibly armed and stuff,

which is why we had to, you know, take them out the way we had to take them out.

And I noticed that anytime you gave a community closure, it was like, oh, wow, like that totally makes sense.

You guys did an awesome job.

So usually the lapses in the gap is because people don't know what we do and why we do it.

And so when they see us do quote unquote, in their mind, these barbaric actions, it really, when you

provide reason behind it, it's not that barbaric as it may seem.

And so what Breaking Barriers United has done is we go out there, we tell people about what we do.

And then I also immerse them in scenarios that law enforcement officers face on a day -to -day basis.

And what initially started as scenarios in front of like a live audience, a live crowd, we've

since expanded to creating this YouTube series called Switch, where we actually

put officers or put civilians through real life scenarios that officers have faced.

And the caveat to it is we utilize simunition rounds, which are, it's like a round that

comes out to you and it hurts.

If you get hit with it, it hurts.

And so there's a level of pain that happens if you get shot by the suspect.

And so by what we've been able to accomplish, and that is people, their eyes have been opened, the mask

has been removed and they're like, wow, like I understand what you guys do now.

We've had people from convicted felons go through it to people that are anti -police that have gone through it.

And their whole mentality about policing has extremely changed.

So that's one aspect.

And then we also educate a lot of students.

So we have, we're in schools all across the country, doing workshops about different topics,

whether it's law enforcement, whether it's anti -bullying, whether it's substance abuse, mental health

abuse, mental health disorders, you name it.

And then we also have afterschool programs where I have officers that go into these schools and mentor a lot of these

kids that are disserved or underserved, I should say, and try to help them develop some resiliency

to their life.

So it's, BBU has become a huge conglomerate of community services that we offer to the community.

Yeah, it's awesome.

And when this episode goes live, we'll include some links to where you can learn more about Breaking Barriers United

and also the video series.

I'd love for people to watch some of those.

Let me ask you this, because you mentioned it earlier, for a black police officer,

how often do you still have to deal with the, essentially, you're a traitor sort of

attitude from the people you're trying to serve?

So now, not too much.

So I, you know, God is good.

Like I talked about earlier, when you walk into faith and when you answer the call of God in your life, amazing things

happen.

Because my organization was growing so quickly, I had to make a decision last year to either

stay on full board with the police department or go all in on my organization.

And so I prayed about it and the Lord revealed to me, he wanted me to continue to expand my organization.

And so my chief created a part -time position for me last April, which allowed me to be a part -time police

officer.

So I'm still have my credentials still sworn, but I focus more on my organization now.

But I bring that up because now that I'm a part -time officer, I'm not on the streets as much as I used to be.

So I don't necessarily get hit with the, I'm a traitor too much anymore.

I'm an Uncle Tom, but I do still get hit with it on social media platforms and channels.

I've developed a reputation to kind of go against the grain in the sense that I will call out

bad police work when I see it, but I'm also going to defend great police work when I see it.

And because of that, I always get people on both sides of the spectrum that don't necessarily always agree with me.

Sometimes it may be police officers that don't like what I have to say, because I'm calling some bad police work out.

But a lot of times it's also people in the African -American community, because when I say that a situation

that involved use of force against a black man or black female was justified, they don't like that either, just because they were.

Reacting solely from their emotions as opposed to facts.

Yeah.

Like you said, often when we will publish an article on a controversial topic, we will

get criticism from both sides.

And it's not always a sign that you have the right balance.

Sometimes it is, but no, I can relate to an extent to the struggle of

trying to do what's right and then getting hit from both sides.

It's not a fun place to be, but it's often, like I said, a sign that you're at

least striving.

Exactly.

So let me, one question I don't think I can do justice to this conversation without

asking you, because even just recently, a friend of mine was visiting from Brazil and

she asked me about George Floyd, the whole George Floyd incident

of all of the ones that have happened in the United States in the last several years seems to be the most famous, the most known

around the world and still on a lot of people's minds.

So from your perspective and from the research you've done from what you've heard and what you know,

what happened with that incident?

What, maybe this will be a good example.

What should the officers have done differently?

And how would your organization seek to take something, a tragedy like that and turn it into

an opportunity for people to learn and to not make the same mistakes in the future?

Yeah.

So again, like I said, with the Tyree Nichols, we have to first acknowledge that that situation was wrong.

I mean, the officers failed, they failed.

And unfortunately, George Floyd lost his life that day.

Now, the thing that the reservations that I had with the whole situation is that the moment this

George Floyd incident happened, it was immediately painted as a racist situation or racist.

It was driven by race.

Now, whether or not that's true or not, I don't know.

Will we ever know?

We won't know.

And the reason I say it bothered me is because I think a lot of times we're so

quick to jump on race.

This has got to be because of race.

It's got to be because of race, but we don't know that.

I mean, we didn't know Derek Chauvin at the time.

We don't know if this dude had a track record for racial propaganda.

We don't know if he had Nazi flags in his garage.

We don't know.

Could he?

Yes, he could have.

And so I always tell people, before we look through the lens of race, let's just see if this was

bad police work.

So again, it could have been racial.

We don't know yet, or at least we don't know.

We may not ever know, just because I don't know if we really know the extent of who Derek Chauvin is.

It could have been no doubt about it fueled by race, but we just don't know.

But if we look at the lens of police work in and of itself, could this situation have been averted?

I think it could.

Now, toxicology reports came out after the fact, and it showed that George Floyd had

a large amount, a substantial amount of narcotics in the system, which I believe was a contributing

factor to his death.

But that doesn't mean that he should have died the way he died.

I think that the reason the officers failed is because they failed to reassess the situation the moment he started

saying he couldn't breathe.

I always like to say that I believe the situation was a contempt of cop situation, meaning that as

Derek Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd's neck and all the people around him were telling him what to do,

I felt that he was in a mindset that I'm not going to allow these other people to be right.

I'm going to do this the way I want to do it.

And so what he should have done is, the moment George Floyd said he couldn't breathe, he should have reassessed the situation,

turned him over, see if he can breathe.

If he's not breathing, give him the appropriate medical aid that he needed.

What he didn't do, or he didn't do that at all.

And I know he could have done that just because I've done it before.

Unfortunately, in my job, there have been times where we've had to put people on their stomach, laying fat on their chest,

because they were acting out, they're acting recklessly, fighting, biting, spitting, you name it.

And then they try to tell us they can't breathe.

And the moment they tell me they can't breathe, we turn them on their side.

And if they continue to bite, bite, whatever they do, we put them back on their stomach.

But if you assess and recognize like, hey, he's legitimately having a medical emergency, you render

aid.

And so I think that it was completely reckless upon Derek Chauvin and those

who were also on the scene for not reassessing that situation and providing him the appropriate medical aid that he needed.

Yeah.

No, that's very helpful.

And in each of these cases that have been in the news, each time, I mean,

when I have an appropriate level of distrust of the media, not to the sense that I don't believe anything they say, but

anytime I hear a report, I'm like, I want to wait a little bit before I make a judgment.

Because often a few days later, even a few weeks later, stuff comes out that really either

changes how you view it, or at least informs like, oh, I may still not agree with what happened

and still view it as the wrong outcome, but I at least can understand how it got to that point.

So it's always helpful to not, like you said, don't instantly go to, this was a

racial issue when it very well might not have been and very well may have been, as you said, terrible policing.

It still doesn't change the fact that a man lost his life.

We should all mourn.

But I think it's helpful to, as a reminder to all of us, to not jump

to a conclusion that's not warranted.

Well, it's almost like that.

It's almost like if you go, if you look at it through the spiritual lens, and it's not the same, same idea, but

same concept is, you know, being slow to speak.

There's a reason why we have to use wisdom and being slow to speak sometimes.

And sometimes you should be slow to speak because in being slow to speak, you're garnering and you're gaining wisdom, you're gaining

context, and it's allowing you to formulate a better response as opposed to reacting at a pure

emotion.

When you're not slow to speak, you're going to have a natural inclination to

want to respond emotionally.

And so that's why the Bible tells you to be slow to speak.

So it's almost very similar when it comes to these situations, as opposed to being so quickly fired up and charged

up, be slow to react to it before.

So that way you can gain all the context and then react from a place of wisdom.

Great point.

It's very wise counsel for so many areas of life, not just this one.

So Ryan, I understand you have a book that'll be coming out later this year.

What's that?

What's the focus of that book going to be?

When can we expect it?

Yes.

So we're in the process of working on a book.

It's going to be called Happy Eyes, and it's called Happy Eyes because that's the, that my wife called me Happy

Eyes when we first met because she said I always smile with my eyes.

But the subtitle is Becoming All Things to All People.

And I believe it's a biblical principle.

The apostle Paul talked about it all the time about becoming all things so that way he might win one.

And so I kind of like adapted similar principles in my own life is, you know, how do you collect with the extreme left?

How do you connect with this extreme right?

How do you become that middleman?

How do you have empathy?

How do you lead with love?

How do you have respect?

And so Becoming All Things to All People is essentially going to be a leadership book and

a development book.

So that way you can start developing some of these traits in your own life in order to win over a

few.

Not to say you're going to win over all people, but you can win over a few if you just learn how to have those three characteristics, which

is love, empathy, and respect.

And the book will be coming out when?

So we're looking at a June or July drop date.

So we haven't, you know, solidified it yet.

We've been working hard in the background to get it done, but we're looking at a June or July publishing date.

So I'm definitely excited for that, man.

This is a legacy work for me, man.

You know, I want to, you know, when I saw it said and done, I want to enter into the heavenly.

Kingdom and God said, well done.

So.

All right.

Me too, man.

So Ryan, thank you for joining me.

We'll include some links to where you can learn more about Ryan Tillman and Breaking Barriers United.

I've learned a lot through watching your videos and it's been eyeopening to me.

And even the words of wisdom, the insight that you've shared today has been helpful for me to help me to

continue to think through and pray through what's gone on and what my reaction should be.

So Ryan, thank you for joining me today.

I truly, truly appreciate your.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

God bless everybody that's listening to this.

So this has been the Got Questions podcast with Ryan Tillman, the founder of Breaking Barriers

United on sort of a, how should Christians view the police?

Especially those who had a bad experience and those who are concerned based on the experience we've been

watching in the news.

So Ryan, again, thank you for your insight.

This has been the Got Questions podcast.

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