Ergun Caner's “Debates,” Spong Gives Up Debates, Lots of Calls

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line I'm back here in the Phoenix area for a couple days and only a couple days head to Southern, California on Friday Friday night

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I'll be within two minutes of the campus of Biola, but I won't be on the

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Campus of Biola, I wonder what happened if I would wander over there. Excuse me, sir. You need to leave we had middle knowledge.

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You were coming Anyway We'll be talking about that subject our subject on Friday evening and I've put the information in the blog

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We'll be playing around predestination and one of the issues we'll be addressing is not only the biblical view of God's decree

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His his natural knowledge and his free knowledge But this theory that men have come up with and there are reformed folks that are buying into it too for some odd and strange reason that God has this this middle knowledge that I'm going to talk a little bit about at that point in time and That'll be

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Friday night and on Sunday morning and Sunday evening. I will be ministering as well on the Sunday evening

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Especially there will be like six or eight churches getting together for that And so it's great when you get all those reformed

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Baptists together and we all sing the amen at the end of the hymns. I Almost got in trouble again this weekend.

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The church we were at doesn't sing yamen, and I almost Almost did a solo as so often happens

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Especially as we sang like oh Yeah, it's on the video the video. I posted right the beginning.

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I'm saying you messed up that song Because it was the song, you know here I raise my Evan eight, sir here thereby that I help on come

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Well, they modernized the whole thing. So they took that whole thing out just totally rewrote the verse and So it's one that we know real well, we sing all the time

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So I was just expecting, you know to hit the amen at the end but I'm glad I sort of paused a moment because it would have looked strange, but anyways, that's what we're doing this weekend and Then I mentioned on Twitter last night that the

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Debate is on for November 7th in New York, but we sham

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Siala has just simply disappeared, I guess We we know that he is in New York But he just doesn't want to talk to us anymore.

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I guess I don't know He we've Chris Arden's and must left 20 messages on his personal cell phone.

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I called the Islamic Center Chris called every place that the guy goes to and speaks and we've we left messages everywhere over the course of months and Never got a return phone call.

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We know that he's still been speaking since the last debate, right? Yeah Oh, okay, because when you use the term disappeared, no, no, no, no

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No, he just he just doesn't want to talk to us for some reason. So We have found someone who has

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Stepped up but it's going to mean that even though I have a lot of prep for this weekend after that I mean on the flight back from LA, I'm gonna have to be hammering because my opponent

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Is an Ahmadi is Muslim and I've never debated an

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Ahmadi Muslim before the Orthodox Muslims view them like we view

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Jehovah's Witnesses They're the ones who believe that Jesus died Of they didn't die he was crucified but then he made it out of the tomb and went to India and Then the the

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Mahdi came in the late 1800s died in 1908 And his writings of course are extremely authoritative

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That's the main reason that the rest of Muslims because they believe in the Quran they believe in Muhammad They pray the five daily prayers and the shahada and and the whole nine yards, but they have some interesting beliefs along the way so this morning

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I Was writing and of course, what was I doing? I was listening to my opponent Lecturing on the status of Jesus and Mary and the issues around his crucifixion things like that.

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I'd found some stuff online I immediately went to what my opponent is going to be saying to try to start learning

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But as worldview, I don't have as much time This time I'm gonna have a lot of reading to do and a lot of catching up to do

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I'm gonna be calling Nabil Qureshi who himself is a former Ahmadi and Saying pour it in man.

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Give me give me everything you got and For some reason as ritual tell you When it comes to a lot of mundane issues of life and little things like that I am the classic absent -minded professor.

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I forget things There are things that rich remembers remember when so -and -so said such such and I stare at him going who? And he looks at me like man, you're losing it, dude

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But but he'll also tell you that if it has something to do with a possible future debate that I have a photographic memory and When I listen to someone

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I'm gonna be debating it sticks and when I'm reading it sticks that's just the way my mind is geared and So I'm gonna be very focused upon those things between now and November 7th.

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So pray for us along those lines because I have other things to do where I'm gonna be going to st.

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Louis first weekend in December and Teaching up a Golden Gate in Mill Valley in January February I'm going to Georgia and Lord willing to London Possibly Ontario Canada as well.

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I need to get back to a brother on an email on that maybe on the way Shabir Ali won't debate but there's some someone else who might want to debate at that particular point in time, etc

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Etc, etc. So much much much going on and so many things. I want to be writing but It's just only so many hours in a day and I've already used up six minutes and 54 seconds of this hour.

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So anyhow That is is what's what's going on there now

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I want to address before we get to any of the phone calls

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It's a little bit strange they're both in Chicago, that's that's a little bit odd Makes me wonder just just a small amount, but we'll see when we get to them

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I did want to address since I have not had the opportunity of dressing the situation that arose last week when

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I dared to Respond to a statement made by Ergin Cantor and on his

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Twitter account Which I can no longer follow because he has blocked me from so doing My first statement

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Was to focus upon what Ergin Cantor said about reformation of doctrine and revolution and soul winning and Anybody who has followed this ministry for any period of time at all

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And I know there's lots of folks who've come along only after the past few years So they do not know what happened in 2006

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They do not know that's why I gave the link to the extensive correspondence

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Extensive Correspondence between myself and Ergin Cantor on those particular issues of the gospel and So it was not like all

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I had to interpret was just 140 characters in a tweet on Twitter There is a background to the statement

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And I well knew what that background was and I felt that it's vitally important to point out that it is the very distinction that is being made

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Between the substance of the gospel and the proclamation of the gospel. That's one of the biggest problems in the church today

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And I felt that dr. Cantor's words were not helpful along those lines Then when people started responding and dr.

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Cantor has He has followers you know, he really has people that are just just zealously follow him because He promotes himself as a personality

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I was just watching and I'm gonna play portions of a video here I was just watching him as he came out at extreme winter o9 this was

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January of this past year and Anybody who is the president of Liberty Theological Seminary who is dressed like like he is dressed like Ergin Cantor is dressed here is

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Trying to make a statement he is trying to draw attention to himself by the way he dresses by the way he behaves by the way he speaks he is making himself very much a part of his own self -promotion and So when

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I saw the statement on his his own website Specifically on his his

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Twitter page Where he he specifically makes? The claim he has debated leaders in Hinduism Buddhism Islam Baha 'i

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Taoism and many cult leaders in 40 states and 11 countries I hearken back to 2006 when

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I asked dr. Cantor to show me His debates. I wanted to have an opportunity to listen to his debates.

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I Obviously listen to other people's debates I play many of them here on the dividing line I've played many of the debates of people like William Lane Craig here, even when

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I do not necessarily agree with their Methodology I do seek to learn from others and at the time all

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I could get out of dr. Cantor was well there. They were sort of informal and they weren't recorded. So three years later.

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I Was sitting in right outside gate B75 at the

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Denver International Airport on Thursday afternoon when

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Hasim the the king of graphics Spruced up one of my blog articles by going and getting the very graphic of Cantor's website of his

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Twitter page and posting it so if people could see exactly What it was that I had quoted and that I had quoted incorrectly people were saying that I had

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Misrepresented him and misquoted him and stuff like that. And as I sat there on my on my

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Mac there at Denver International Airport I looked over and I saw those words in his in his

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Twitter page He has debated leaders in Hinduism now notice. It says he has debated Debate means something dr.

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Cantor is the head of a seminary and He is also the head of the global apologetics program at Liberty Seminary and if you're the head of that program and you're trying to get people to sign up You're trying to get people to become paying students

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Well, why would someone want to study under Bergen Cantor? What are his qualifications?

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Well, he's for a Muslim. Well, okay But he converted sometime in his teen years.

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He was not some Muslim leader or anything like that. He wasn't some Muslim scholar He was a young person who who became a

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Christian and that's wonderful, that's great, but doesn't exactly make you an expert in Islam and So what has he done?

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What what? You know, so he says he's debated leaders in these religions now it is

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It has shocked me and it has saddened me That I've been contacted by many

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Christians who think that I'm the big bad meanie Because I'm daring to call for some level of accountability in the use of language

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Well, you know if he if he talked to a Muslim after a talk he gave at a church

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That's like a debate, isn't it? No first of all that Muslims not a leader and If you say

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I have debated leaders in Hinduism in Islam Then in just simple

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Categories of honesty Isn't it right to be able to ask like who now

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I have debated a certain number of Islamic leading Islamic apologists including

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Shabir Ali who Ergin Kenner once thought was dead I Think Shabir Ali is well known as an

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Islamic apologist and I have debated him four times and You can go to www .aomin

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.org and you can listen to At least first two of those and we're still waiting for the videotapes of the last two from London Huh, you can get that you can watch you can actually watch and make sure that it actually is me

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That's debating and it's a debate we have a moderator and we have a thesis statement and we have time equal time and we have cross -examination and oh,

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I know and There are numerous other people Muslim apologists that I have debated and I've never debated

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Zakir Naik. I'd love to There are some names out there that I would love to have the opportunity of debating someday in the future

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But when I say I've debated these people It would never cross my mind to say that if I if I happen to run into Shabir Ali at an airport and I talked with him in the

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TSA security line That I had debated him It would never cross my mind to even to even think to make a claim like that and yet I have had people

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Contacting me going. Well, you know That's sort of like a debate or like, you know, if you have like an email exchange with somebody wait a minute words have meanings

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Listen to this phrase again this sentence again He is debated leaders in Hinduism Buddhism Islam Baha 'i

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Taoism and many cult leaders notice the end of the sentence in 40 states and 11 countries

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When you talk about the exact number of states and the exact number of countries you're talking about a specific activity

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You're promoting yourself as having Experience and expertise in these fields don't don't tell me

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That this is well, you know, he was sitting next to a guy a Buddhist on a plane

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They flew over seven states and they talked about football That's not having a debate words have meanings and If it was a conversation or an interview would that communicate the same thing to potential students?

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Well, he's actually interviewed a number of people Is that gonna cause you to go?

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Oh, I I better go to that seminary because he's interviewed people Of course not. There's a reason the term debate is being used

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And so people began sending me information because I asked where can I get these debates? Well, they sent me to this this little website where he did some interviews

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Not a one with a Muslim and I'm like, this is it that this this is this is all there is

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What where's all these Muslim ones, I mean he's the expert in Islam, isn't he? Where's all the Muslim debates?

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Where's his debates with Shabir Ali or Bassam Zawadi or or as of a car Ali Shah or Adnan Rashid or or any of these?

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individuals that I've debated and You can actually listen to those debates and or at least confirm with those individuals that I debated them.

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I Even asked for any Muslims who have debated her can can or to contact me because I'd like to know who they are

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I'd like to track those things down. And so I asked at that point stuff started coming in and Someone sent me a

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Link to a newspaper article from January of 2006 where Cantor made the specific claim

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But having done at that point 61 debates with Muslims Now when you come up with a specific number like that 61

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Doesn't that communicate something to you other than? Conversations with somebody do you keep track of the number of Conversations you've had or do you keep track of the number of debates you have done things you actually prepared to do worked on Well, of course the answer is obvious, but still there are people that just don't get it and they're like, well, you know

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We don't really know what debate means. So words are very fluid Postmodernists out there.

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And so I asked Eric and Kenner directly by via Twitter We're all these debates.

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I'd like to watch them. Could you please let me know and then it got silent And it got silent because dr.

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Kenner's response to me was to block me from his His page and I have posted a graphic of that on the blog.

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This user has blocked you from following them Well that they can't actually do that They can do that as long as your blog as you're logged in if I don't log into Twitter and I just put in there

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Again, Kenner I can see anything that you said so it just makes it harder to do it But you can still you know, read whatever they have to say and so I guess that's my response to that and So it's been amazing the number of people have contacted me well, you know

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I just think you should have had a cup of coffee with the man Folks these are publicly made claims

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What happened to integrity The Muslims know he hasn't done these things the

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Muslims the Muslims look at this and go. Oh, wait a minute you people talk about being truthful you people talk about following him who is the truth and yet here's this guy and he makes all these claims and I gotta admit

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Eric Eric and Kenner says some amazing things about Muslims talks about towel heads and There's this one where he starts off talking about no

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I didn't drive a cab and have my shirt open down to my navel and gold chains in my chest hair And I I'm just sitting here going you've got to be kidding me evidently

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He thinks that you know, I can do that because I'm Turkish and so I can go ahead and you know Rib my own people or whatever else

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Okay, fine. Wonderful Where's the beef

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Where is the evidence? Here we have a man who's the head of a seminary in the

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Southern Baptist Convention and He makes claims about what gives him expertise to speak on these subjects and When you ask could you could you show us some of these things you can't find anything actually,

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Sam sent me a link to a Lee Strobel television program where he was on with two other people and The subject was is do

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Christians and Muslims worship the same God and the two other people said yes, and he said no And he was right. I appreciate what he had to say, but it wasn't a debate.

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It was like a 10 -minute interview That's not a debate But if it is we now have one of the 61

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What is what is he communicating by his own self -promotion and is it honest and people that why should you care?

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Because I minister to Muslims. That's why We should all care

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How many black eyes does evangelicalism have to get before someone will say hey, you know what?

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Maybe if you're going to Say I've done X number of debates against X number of people there might it might be good to at least be able to document most of them

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I mean there are a couple of my debates you probably couldn't get hold of anymore because they were from way way way back when and Like you can't watch the

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Paco debates from San Diego because the Roman Catholics won't give us the videotapes but you can listen to them and There's lots of witnesses and Mitch Paco would say.

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Oh, yeah, we did those debates you could find witnesses But you can't do that with anything that Eric and Kenner's talking about so I Just wonder how that is.

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And so someone directed me to this video and Eric and Kenner is speaking to the extreme winter o9.

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This is a youth group. He's wearing a hoodie and Sort of has like a towel For some reason

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I'm not sure what that is, but I want you to hear what he says these kids It's not just an isolated thing.

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Listen to what he says right here unapologetic He was telling you about my debates.

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I debate anyone I Have a standing order that I will debate anyone anytime anyplace usually it's in universities and colleges

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You know what I'm talking about the community colleges state universities a

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Campus crusade group will have me in and I will debate anyone Hindu Buddhist Every type of Muslim Sunni Shia Alouite Druze We'll have a

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I've never debated a hobby but just about all of them Taoists Shintoists Confucianists anybody because I There you go.

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I Debate anybody I've debated them all that's me I'm out there on the front lines. I know what these people do and I Interact with them.

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I am an expert on these things because if you debate someone and if you debate them, well You cannot just know

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Christian Christianity well, you have to know what they believe Well, yet you need to know their language, you know Their understanding of of the world you to be able to communicate with them.

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Those are big claims. I know the work that goes into Trying to do this in a way that is proper and appropriate and honoring to God I know because I do it and I guess that's what makes me really upset when people just go.

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Oh, well, you know It doesn't matter you know Just a conversation over coffee it on a campus someplace that's a debate that's fine

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I'm just I don't know what even to say something like that. I just don't know what to say.

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So I Just have to ask folks. What does it say? When someone can be given this just complete free pass

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Just complete free pass just claim whatever you want to claim. It doesn't matter Doesn't matter just just as long as we're

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We're all talking about Jesus and everything's okay. That seems to be the mindset of so many people and I don't get it and It surely shows that some people just are not understanding

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That there is a level of integrity that must be maintained in doing these kinds of debates and I'm just trying to be consistent

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Just trying to be consistent So there's there's my commentary I could have written all that up and I wrote some of it up on the blog but I Hadn't seen this particular video.

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There's some pretty amazing videos on YouTube That are that are like I said amazing so you can you can take a look at that yourself

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I'm gonna cover one other thing then we'll we'll take our break and dive into our our callers. I noticed on dr.

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Moeller's blog this morning a A discussion of Bishop John Shelby spong.

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Oh, yes. I'll make this I'll make this short October 15th 2009

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I've made a decision. I will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality in the church with anyone I will no longer engage the biblical ignorance that emanates from so many right -wing

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Christians about how the Bible condemns Homosexuality as if that point of view still has any credibility

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I'll no longer discuss with them or listen to them Tell me how homosexuality is an abomination to God about how homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle or about how through prayer and spiritual counseling

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Homosexual persons can be cured. Those arguments are no longer worthy of my time or energy I will no longer dignify by listening to the thoughts of those who advocate

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Advocate reparative therapy as if homosexual persons are somehow broken and need to be repaired Etc.

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Etc. Etc. Basically what he says is It's over with we lost he won

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I Make these statements because it is time to move on the battle is over the victory has been won There is no reasonable doubt as to what the final outcome of this struggle will be

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Homosexual people will be accepted as equal full human beings who have a legitimate right on every right that both church and society has to Offer any of us homosexual marriages will become legal recognized by a state and pronounced wholly by the church

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Don't ask don't tell will be dismantled as a policy of our armed forces We will and we must learn that equality of citizenship is not something that should ever be submitted to a referendum

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Equality under before the law is a solemn promise conveyed to all our citizens in the Constitution itself, etc.

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Etc. Etc Bishop Spong has Proclaimed the battle over the victory has been won and he will no longer debate anyone who views it.

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Otherwise Well, the fact the matter is he never debated us in the first place

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Anybody Who listens to my debate with John Shelby's pong and it was a debate it took place at a location in front of an

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Audience with a moderator time with a thesis statement. That's called a debate I didn't just run into Bishop Spong the lobby of a hotel someplace and have a little discussion with him about homosexuality

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I actually debated him for two and a half hours on the subject and Anybody who listens that knows but he didn't debate me

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He told his stories he Tried to Buffalo his way through cross -examination.

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I didn't know how to ask a question. Let alone answer a question in any in any meaningful fashion and So to say well the debates over we win

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Is one of the most arrogant things I think I've ever heard anybody do But that's the arrogance of the left

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That that's that's how liberals view things you people are just so stupid That weren't it's not even gonna we're just not even gonna lower ourselves to listen to you anymore

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There are no arguments on your side. La la la la la la la la. I Mean I can't help but think of the little kid who just sticks his fingers in his ears and therefore, you know

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I don't hear the argument. So there aren't any anymore It is absolutely

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The battle in both our culture and our church to rid our souls of this dying prejudice is finished a

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New consciousness has arisen a decision has quite clearly been made Inequality for gay and lesbian people is no longer a debatable issue in either church or state

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Therefore I will from this moment on refuse to dignify the continued public expression of ignorant prejudice by engaging it

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I do not tolerate racism or sexism any longer from this moment on I will no longer tolerate our culture's various forms of homophobia

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I do not care who it is who articulates these attitudes or who tries to make them sound holy with religious

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Jargon, and he did mention some people and I'm really I Got admit I was

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I was just personally Devastated that I didn't make the list. I didn't get mentioned But it says

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I will dismiss as unworthy any more of my attention the wild false and uninformed opinions of such would -be

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Religious leaders as Pat Robertson James Dobson Jerry Falwell Excuse me.

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He's dead Jimmy Swaggart Albert Mueller and Robert Duncan He included

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Jerry Falwell, can you believe it? Well my my country and my church have both already spent too much time energy and money trying to accommodate these

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Backwards points of views when are no longer even tolerable. Well, there you go the the wonderful attitude of the left

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That says You know what, I know people that are that way about global warming

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And all sorts of the pet issues the left you people are too stupid to debate any longer we're just not gonna have any interaction you just you're just too dumb to do it and That's how they think and people actually buy into it

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Amazing stuff eight seven seven seven five three three three four one can take a break and then get to our phone calls You're right back

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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

32:18

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

32:28

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith

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And I'll go back to the value line Let's go ahead and get to our phone calls here on the program eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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Let's talk with David in Chicago. Hi David Dr. White how you doing? Not bad, how are you good?

34:18

Yeah, thanks for taking my call. I've recently been introduced to presuppositional apologetics and the philosophy behind it

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And I think I'm coming around to understanding the determinative role the presuppositions play in evaluating evidence and reaching conclusions on all kinds of issues

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With that in mind. What does it mean to say that the Bible speaks with clarity on any given matter if I'm Influenced more than I even realized

34:42

By my cultural background and in assumptions well, obviously when you speak of clarity, you're you're speaking of the the nature of the revelation and how it would be perceived by an individual who is in the right relationship with God the lack of clarity that individuals experience is not due to the nature of the revelation, but but due to the individual and Either their ignorance of God's truth the traditions.

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They have sinful attitudes results of sinful actions and attitudes in their lives I mean there's a whole complex of things that that goes into into the

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Equation there and so what you're talking about is the revelation in and of itself Not necessarily revelation as it is experienced by any one particular individual

35:32

I mean obviously the individual who is as described by Peter Taught and stable finds great clarity in the

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Word of God and great harmony and Tremendous guidance and so on so forth were as I think of some of the opponents in my debates

35:51

Well, I think of Paul's own words of the Jews. There is a veil that lies over their heart So some of sometimes that that quote -unquote lack of clarity is actually a judgmental issue

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It's a judgment on God's part against someone so that he hardens their hearts or blinds their eyes as a part of his judgment upon a person or a people but still for others

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I think of many of my Muslim friends Is is the lack of clarity in Scripture actually do the

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Scripture itself or due to the? tremendous Things that are brought to the text of Scripture because of their pre -existing faith systems

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And so I think we do talk about the clarity of Scripture We're talking about it as it is and how it would be perceived by one who is in right relationship with God not necessarily a functional description for any one into a particular individual or group

36:44

Right. I understand that what you're saying the Bible clearly is a matter of Being in a right relationship with God and the

36:52

Holy Spirit will reveal those things to you but I guess if I read the Bible as Middle -class young white

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North American male, how can I be confident that I'm reading the Bible? Not in just way,

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I'm sorry, how can I be confident that I'm reading the Bible in such a way that transcends my cultural understanding is because and I admit

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I don't have any examples of this but There have been some doctrinal issues that I've been pretty confident on it

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And I've talked to someone who's come from a very different part of the world very different culture They've had a totally different understanding and that understanding has been a product of their upbringing

37:32

Is it just the Holy Spirit that reveals those things to us? No, I think that's why you have to have the proper rules of exegesis.

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I mean so many the rules of exegesis are meant to Help us to transcend those very issues.

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For example, the examination of context the examination of language are meant to function as filters and yeah, you're right.

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There are many people who even if they are diligently seeking to to understand the text to write if they're not aware of How different their culture is than the culture from which the text originally came?

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it's it is very easy to read things in and that's why it is good to read widely and to to be aware of Those those issues when you're doing your your your work

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That's why no one ever gets it all in this life It's it's it is a it is a lifelong process but there is a great danger there now the the the same danger however has been taken to an extreme by some who then say

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None of us can ever know What is really what the Word of God is really saying because we are just completely slaves of our of our cultural context

38:41

I don't think that's the case at all either that that really would in essence say that there cannot be a

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Divine revelation that can transcend linguistics culture the change of cultures over time etc, etc, and I just Given how long the

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Old Testament revelation was in its revelation and how long it how much change there was even over that period of time

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That's certainly not how the Apostles viewed things and I think God can communicate across those cultural barriers

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But we do need to be very concerned about Testing our traditions and You're right.

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If you're raised with those traditions, it's extremely hard to to do that But we have to do it and that's that's what real exegesis is about Yeah, I guess

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I understand that the remedy for a lot of God or for overcoming our traditions and cultural backgrounds is the exegetical method

39:37

Yeah, and I agree that's objective But I think it can only practically be as objective as the person is applying it and I think we're more subjective than we'd like to admit

39:46

Well again if if the if the desire of the heart is to know

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What was originally revealed through the author and written as scripture?

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I don't believe in the kind of Pyrrhonic skepticism that that says well, we just we just can't know

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We we can't make a determination that That the first verses of of John clearly present to us the

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Logos as a as a divine person We can't know that that first Corinthians 8

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The Apostle Paul is is plainly drawing from the Jewish mind yet is distributing the divine activities between the

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Father and the Son, I mean those those things are right there and So while we are indeed influenced by our culture and traditions and things like that as long as we are aware of that danger and we are truly seeking to hear

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Paul in his culture and to not be overridden by things I believe that we can know what the scriptures are teaching and and then as we grow in our knowledge of that And it's trusting that the word is harmonious of itself

40:55

I think that even provides more further correctives correctives that are not a part of liberal

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Interpretation of Scripture. However, I think that needs to be emphasized liberal interpretation of Scripture does not have that concept of The harmony of the text of Scripture and so a lot of what would help in the creation of Christian doctrine is gone

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And that's why so many liberal denominations end up abandoning their views of the

41:21

Bible at that point and Christian theology Okay, okay, yeah, okay. Thanks David. All right.

41:27

Thanks. All right. God bless Batman Let's stay in Chicago and talk with Richard. Hi Richard.

41:33

Hello Hi there. How are you? Good? Good. My question is concerning Bible borrowing pagan from pagan sources specifically the gospel of Mark borrowing from Greek tragedy

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Have you ever encountered anything like this? which someone would claim that the structure of Mark's gospel is harmonious with Greek Tragedy.

42:02

Yeah, well, in fact, it's tragedy. And yes, in fact, Dan Barker presented that argument in our debate last month and Made reference to a book that was published at the beginning of this decade, which

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I purchased at that time I don't have in the studio with me right now, but where an individual has attempted by very selective translation and by Removing contexts to attempt to create parallels to various Homeric Epics and things like that.

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And as I said in the debate and as if I can ever find the time would like to Post on the blog some articles on this subject that kind of activity is is

42:45

Well, while it may be time -consuming is not overly difficult to do in other words you can look for common events and activities in human life that would be recorded in literature such as getting into a boat traveling someplace and getting out of a boat and you can have

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Jesus and some hero and Generally people get into boats things happen in boats frequently weather is involved with happening in boats people say things while in boats and then people get out of boats and you can then by taking

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Context out of that and just by emphasizing similarities create parallels between almost anything

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Those who study information theory and especially those who have to on a legal Basis determine if plagiarism is involved or reliance or influence or whatever else it might be will not look for Basic similarities because they exist across all of all of human literature, but they will look for specifics

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Where in the flow of a story and in the context of a story you have specific events?

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Going on that would not Be easily paralleled and the problem with the

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Homeric epic Attempts is that you you have to abandon the Jewish context of the

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New Testament you have to abandon The flow of thought yet, and you have to keep removing these specific

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Elements from the story so that what the author was intending to communicate is no longer the issue

44:20

It's just well Can I find enough things here to parallel over to where you have two authors with two different intentions and yet somehow?

44:28

You're connecting the two together. I find it to be a an exercise in Literary gerrymandering in essence and don't find any reason whatsoever to believe that Any of the

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Gospels mark or Luke since he's the same author has put out a book on acts Where he attempts to draw said said parallels, but that's that any of that's worthwhile

44:51

You gave examples of Homeric epics But did you find anything relating specifically to Greek tragedy?

45:02

Well, I think I would if you're we're talking about the same source the same book that's what the focus of that particular book was on was on was on Homer and Iliad and the

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Odyssey were the primary things he was he was drawing from but again There's I see no reason whatsoever to believe that the gospel stories coming from first century

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Palestine Have anything to do with especially when you look at something like Matthew which contains the same materials mark

45:36

In regards to the outline of Jesus life Written to people who would probably wouldn't even know of those particular tragedies or certainly wouldn't find any parallel to be at all convincing

45:46

Why would you be doing something like this? Why what's what's the motivation? This doesn't doesn't make any sense

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It would be used as a literary device particularly

46:00

It would be the structure of a Greek tragedy But why why would you see it's it's amazing because critics of the

46:08

New Testament Some will say all the New Testament writers are you know illiterate people and they're simpletons and la la la and then on the other

46:15

Side all of a sudden these people are sitting around and they've got access to libraries and written documents and they're they're collating stuff

46:22

And they're they're reading Greek tragedies and and paralleling Greek tragedies while trying to convert first century

46:28

Palestinian Jews to Christianity What's the motivation? I? Mean aside from the fact that you can you can create parallels by ignoring context.

46:36

That's the reason that this is all bogus, but even Putting that aside for the moment. Why? Why would anybody do this?

46:44

It helps you Write your gospel if you have a certain structure It might be easier to work that into so so you think it's more probable that a

46:55

Palestinian Jew Needs the structure of Greek tragedy plays to write a fictional story than it is that a

47:02

Palestinian Jew would actually write a story based on what actually happened Written so that the people he's writing to would actually be convinced of what he's what he's writing

47:15

Well you brought up Palestine in which you have the area of Deca decapolis decapolis.

47:24

Yes, and those are ten cities that were Based upon They were

47:33

Greek yeah, yes Greek yeah, but that's not Jerusalem that that's not that's not your primary audience your primary audience are

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Jews in in and around Jerusalem Judea and in Galilee and again

47:48

Aside from the fact that the the parallels are based upon removing context and and bias translation, which means the whole thing's irrelevant anyways, but the fact remains that looking for Backgrounds like this a assumes that the authors are writing fiction in the first place which they themselves say they're not

48:08

Which you'd sort of have to back that up, but and then secondly it makes no sense for Jewish writers

48:15

Writing to a Jewish audience I mean if you're if you're gonna say is this fiction the only Logical thing to do is to say that they're drawing from Old Testament stories at least at least you could then connect with your audience

48:27

But you've got the wrong audience That that's it. That's in view here. I'm not saying the content is fictional because it's based on Pagan sources, but rather the structure the form of the gospel

48:41

For example you have the transfiguration Right in the middle of The gospel of Mark if you take the verses and divide it accordingly you define that in the middle as the high points of that gospel

48:59

If you remove last 12 verses from Mark and you see the miracles getting bigger and bigger or more augmented leading up to the transfiguration and you see a

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Jesus more as a tragic figure since Nobody knows about Who he is say for the devil's and?

49:29

I guess a flaw That you would find

49:36

Within him might be something like how? He claims that he is the

49:41

Son of God at the end of the gospel I'm just saying if you heard anything like this

49:47

No, no Richard. I really Don't think that the vast majority of scholarship is is looking to Greek tragedy plays as anything providing a any kind of form or function

50:00

I mean obviously if you're telling a story that starts at a point in someone's life and Provides some background reaches a climax and makes application

50:13

You're going to be able to draw parallels there I mean that would sort of be like saying that if you read a biography of Robert E.

50:20

Lee Since it starts with birth and goes through great Battles that he went through and then ends with his death well

50:27

They must have been using the Gospels as the form of to give to give the the story. It's it's it's essence

50:33

I I don't see any any reason to go there But thank you for your call today here on the dividing line, and let's keep going here, and let's talk with Sean hi

50:41

Sean Hi, how you doing doing good? I want I want to thank you for providing the meat that we all need in this day and age

50:49

And my question is about the elect is the elect Chosen separate lot going to be saved versus the ones that are being called that are invited

51:02

To be saved well, there's there's two uses of the term calling in the

51:08

New Testament there is a General called the gospel when Jesus says many are called, but few are chosen

51:14

The calling there is is a general called the gospel that goes out to all

51:20

But there's a specific use of calling that we see we see in Romans chapter 8 When Paul says those whom he predestined these he also called whom he called he justified whom he justified he also glorified the same group

51:34

Is in view they are the ones who are predestined they are the ones who are called They are one of the ones who are justified they're the ones that are glorified and so that calling is the specific calling or the effectual calling of the

51:46

Spirit of God that Actually brings spiritual life and grants the gifts of faith and repentance so We need to be specific as to what we're talking about are we talking about when the

51:55

Holy Spirit? calls a person to faith in Christ through bringing regeneration their hearts and conviction of sin and so on and so forth or are we talking about The general call the gospel where we are to command all men everywhere to repent

52:25

Well there's both both both The term is used in both ways in in the

52:31

New Testament And so the the issue is when we discuss it then we need to be specific as to which context we're talking about whether we're

52:38

Talking about a general call or whether we're talking about the specific call that is a result of God's decree of salvation

52:45

So since the scripture uses it in two different ways then then we need to be very specific in our usage as well

52:51

And so you've got two different ways that you can be called So you're not calling for just a lot of the election, but you're calling for The ones that may be called that are not elected

53:04

They're not one in the fact the general call goes out to all people But the general call is not is not accompanied by the quickening work of the

53:14

Spirit The only ones who will respond to that general call are those that the spirits quickens and and draws to Jesus Christ.

53:21

Yes Okay Thank you, Sean All right, let's we're working through the calls here and let's talk with Brandon hi

53:33

Brandon Doing good Justification the final judgment

53:40

I'm trying to Kind of wrap my head around the issue and I'm getting some very different answers from different people.

53:46

I go to I was wondering if I could read a quote and just get your opinion on If it accurately represents what you believe the

53:53

Bible is teaching on the matter, okay Let's see present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ on enjoyed in union with him through faith alone future justification is the open confirmation and declaration

54:09

That in Christ Jesus, we are perfectly blameless before God This final judgment accords with our works

54:15

That is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and our lives will be brought forward as the evidence that And confirmation of true faith in union with Christ Without that validating transformation.

54:26

There will be no future salvation no, uh, that sounds very much like the the new perspective and Issues related to that go ahead and drop the other shoe.

54:38

Who are you quoting? But that go ahead and drop the other shoe.

54:44

Who were you quoting? Well, can I? Read a couple more lines Why don't you just tell me who you're quoting first?

54:51

Well, when I do that, it tends to muddy the water Can't get a good answer from people Well, I already said that I disagree with the formulation in regards to our works being brought forth as a part of our final justification the good works come forth as a result of Sanctification and conforming us to the image of Christ, but our final justification is not based upon Anything wrought in us or by us but is solely based upon the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ both

55:24

His positive righteous as his active in his passive righteousness So I've already said that I disagree with that formulation and in that in that assertion

55:34

At least as I'm understanding the the context rather Contextless statement since you haven't told me who said it yet.

55:43

All right. Well, that was that was a summary from an article in Christianity today summarizing

55:49

Piper's argument against right Yeah, well,

55:54

I'm not sure who is summarizing it because dr. Piper in his book emphasizes that the sole grounding of Salvation is to be found in Peter righteous of Christ.

56:06

However, his book future grace Seemed to have been influenced at some point by some of the the same thought that eventually went into Not so much.

56:18

Well, I don't want to say by by new perspectivism because he's he's rejecting that but there does seem to be some

56:25

Language that he has utilized over the years that has caused some folks to go you know,

56:31

I'm comfortable with this this level of of Talking about these these works as ever having any ground my understanding is that he attempts as best he can

56:44

To avoid saying that there is any ground outside the imputed righteous of Christ while at the same time saying

56:50

That there is a vindication of God's justice in the righteous deeds of the

56:55

Saints And I I'm uncomfortable with with anything that could be in any way shape or form understood as Creating a mixed righteousness

57:09

That is anything other than the imputed righteousness of Christ Active and passive as the sole ground of one standing before God at the final judgment the righteous works of the

57:20

Saints glorify God and the righteous certain works the Saints are Could be said to be a part of God's justification for his creation in the sense that he has

57:33

Conformed his people to the image of Christ and therefore by in essence Reduplicating Christ in that way has has increased righteousness and justice and so on and so forth.

57:44

You could say that But I think we need to be very very careful to distinguish between the ground by which a person stands before God And then any shall we say cosmic justification of God's entire plan of salvation

58:00

Those are those are two things that have to be have to be recognized. So Alrighty. Thanks, Brandon Yeah, we're out of time.

58:07

Sorry about that. We got you right at the end. Thanks for your call. All right All right. Thank you for the excellent phone calls today.

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We covered a wide Variety of things yet again this week.

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I don't travel on Thursday. I leave on Friday. So Lord willing we'll be here Thursday evening again hit the blog if you want the information about where we will be

58:31

Friday night in Los Angeles and then Sunday morning and Sunday evening as well. Look forward to seeing you then.

58:37

Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

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