Ergun Caner's “Debates,” Spong Gives Up Debates, Lots of Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Upcoming Travel, Predestination, and Middle Knowledge

Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. I'm back here in the Phoenix area for a couple days and only a couple days head to Southern California on Friday. Friday night I'll be within two minutes of the campus of Biola, but I won't be on the Campus of Biola, I wonder what happened if I would wander over there.

Excuse me, sir. You need to leave we had middle knowledge. You were coming Anyway. We'll be talking about that subject our subject on Friday evening and I've put the information in the blog. We'll be playing around predestination and one of the issues we'll be addressing is not only the biblical view of God's decree His his natural knowledge and his free knowledge.

But this theory that men have come up with and there are reformed folks that are buying into it too for some odd and strange reason that God has this this middle knowledge that I'm going to talk a little bit about at that point in time and That'll be Friday night and on Sunday morning and Sunday evening.

I will be ministering as well on the Sunday evening. Especially there will be like six or eight churches getting together for that. And so it's great when you get all those reformed Baptists together and we all sing the amen at the end of the hymns.

I Almost got in trouble again this weekend. The church we were at doesn't sing yamen, and I almost Almost did a solo as so often happens. Especially as we sang like oh Yeah, it's on the video the video I posted right at the beginning.

I'm saying you messed up that song. Because it was the song, you know here I raise my Evan eight, sir here thereby that I help on come. Well, they modernized the whole thing. So they took that whole thing out just totally rewrote the verse and So it's one that we know real well, we sing all the time.

So I was just expecting, you know to hit the amen at the end but I'm glad I sort of paused a moment because it would have looked strange, but anyways, that's what we're doing this weekend and Then I mentioned on Twitter last night that The Debate is on for November 7th in New York, but we sham Siala has just simply disappeared I guess.

We we know that he is in New York. But he just doesn't want to talk to us anymore. I guess I don't know. He we've Chris Arden's and must left 20 messages on his personal cell phone. I called the Islamic Center.

Chris called every place that the guy goes to and speaks and we've we left messages everywhere over the course of months and.

Never got a return phone call. We know that he's still been speaking since the last debate, right? Yeah. Oh, okay, because when you use the term disappeared, no, no, no, no.

No, he just he just doesn't want to talk to us for some reason. So We have found someone who has Stepped up, but it's going to mean that even though I have a lot of prep for this weekend after that I mean on the flight back from LA.

I'm gonna have to be hammering because my opponent Is an Ahmadi is Muslim and I've never debated an Ahmadi Muslim before the Orthodox Muslims view them like we view Jehovah's Witnesses. They're the ones who believe that Jesus died.

Of they didn't die he was crucified but then he made it out of the tomb and went to India and Then the the Mahdi came in the late 1800s died in 1908. And his writings of course are extremely authoritative.

That's the main reason that the rest of Muslims because they believe in the Quran they believe in Muhammad. They pray the five daily prayers and the shahada and and the whole nine yards, but they have some interesting beliefs along the way so this morning I Was writing and of course, what was I doing?

I was listening to my opponent. Lecturing on the status of Jesus and Mary and the issues around his crucifixion things like that. I'd found some stuff online. I immediately went to what my opponent is going to be saying to try to start learning.

But as worldview, I don't have as much time. This time I've got to have a lot of reading to do and a lot of catching up to do. I'm gonna be calling Nabil Qureshi who himself is a former Ahmadi and Saying pour it in man.

Give me give me everything you got and For some reason as ritual tell you When it comes to a lot of mundane issues of life and little things like that I am the classic absent-minded professor. I forget things.

There are things that rich remembers remember when so-and-so said such such and I stare at him going who? And he looks at me like man, you're losing it, dude. But but he'll also tell you that if it has something to do with a possible future debate that I have a photographic memory and When I listen to someone I'm gonna be debating it sticks and when I'm reading it sticks that's just the way my mind is geared and So I'm gonna be very focused upon those things between now and November 7th.

So pray for us along those lines because I have other things to do where I'm gonna be going to st. Louis first weekend in December and Teaching up a Golden Gate in Mill Valley in January February. I'm going to Georgia and Lord willing to London.

Possibly Ontario Canada as well. I need to get back to a brother on an email on that maybe on the way Shabir Ali won't debate but there's some someone else who might want to debate at that particular point in time, etc.

Etc, etc. So much much much going on and so many things. I want to be writing but It's just only so many hours in a day and I've already used up six minutes and 54 seconds of this hour. So anyhow. That is is what's what's going on there now I want to address before we get to any of the phone calls.

Ergun Caner’s Debate Claims and Accountability

It's a little bit strange they're both in Chicago, that's that's a little bit odd. Makes me wonder just just a small amount, but we'll see when we get to them. I did want to address since I have not had the opportunity of dressing the situation that arose last week when I dared to Respond to a statement made by Ergon Kanner and on his Twitter account.

Which I can no longer follow because he has blocked me from so doing. My first statement Was to focus upon what Ergon Kanner said about Reformation of Doctrine and Revolution and soul winning and Anybody who has followed this ministry for any period of time at all.

And I know there's lots of folks who've come along only after the past few years. So they do not know what happened in 2006. They do not know that's why I gave the link to the extensive correspondence.

Extensive Correspondence between myself and Ergon Kanner on those particular issues of the gospel and So it was not like all I had to interpret was just 140 characters in a tweet on Twitter. There is a background to the statement.

And I well knew what that background was and I felt that it's vitally important to point out that it is the very distinction that is being made Between the substance of the gospel and the proclamation of the gospel.

That's one of the biggest problems in the church today. And I felt that dr. Cantor's words were not helpful along those lines. Then when people started responding and dr. Cantor has He has followers you know, he really has people that are just just zealously follow him because He promotes himself as a personality.

I was just watching and I'm gonna play portions of a video here. I was just watching him as he came out at extreme winter o9 this was January of this past year and Anybody who is the president of Liberty Theological Seminary who is dressed like like he is dressed like Ergon Kanner is dressed here is Trying to make a statement he is trying to draw attention to himself by the way.

He dresses by the way, he behaves by the way, he speaks he is making himself very much a part of his own self-promotion and So when I saw the statement on his his own website. Specifically on his his Twitter page.

Where he he specifically makes? The claim he has debated leaders in Hinduism Buddhism Islam Baha 'i Taoism and many cult leaders in 40 states and 11 countries. I hearken back to 2006 when I asked dr. Cantor to show me His debates.

I wanted to have an opportunity to listen to his debates. I Obviously listen to other people's debates. I play many of them here on the dividing line. I've played many of the debates of people like William Lane Craig here, even when I do not necessarily agree with their Methodology I do seek to learn from others and at the time all I could get out of dr Cantor was well there they were sort of informal and they weren't recorded.

So three years later. I Was sitting in right outside gate B75 at the Denver International Airport on Thursday afternoon when Hasim the the king of graphics Spruced up one of my blog articles by going and getting the very graphic of Cantor's website of his Twitter page and posting it so if people could see exactly What it was that I had quoted and that I had quoted incorrectly people were saying that I had Misrepresented and misquoted him and stuff like that.

And as I sat there on my on my Mac there at Denver International Airport I looked over and I saw those words in his in his Twitter page. He has debated leaders in Hinduism now notice. It says he has debated.

Debate means something. Dr. Cantor is the head of a seminary and He is also the head of the global apologetics program at Liberty Seminary and if you're the head of that program and you're trying to get people to sign up.

You're trying to get people to become paying students. Well, why would someone want to study under Ergun Cantor? What are his qualifications? Well, he's for a Muslim. Well, okay. But he converted sometime in his teen years.

He was not some Muslim leader or anything like that. He wasn't some Muslim scholar. He was a young person who who became a Christian and that's wonderful, that's great, but doesn't exactly make you an expert in Islam and.

So what has he done? What what? You know, so he says he's debated leaders in these religions now it is. It has shocked me and it has saddened me. That I've been contacted by many Christians who think that I'm the big bad meanie.

Because I'm daring to call for some level of accountability in the use of language well, you know if he if he talked to a Muslim after a talk he gave at a church. That's like a debate, isn't it? No first of all that Muslims not a leader and If you say I have debated leaders in Hinduism in Islam.

Then in just simple Categories of honesty. Isn't it right to be able to ask like who now I have debated a certain number of Islamic leading Islamic apologists including Shabir Ali who Ergin Kenner once thought was dead.

I Think Shabir Ali is well known as an Islamic apologist and I have debated him four times and You can go to www .aomin .org and you can listen To at least first two of those and we're still waiting for the videotapes of the last two from London.

Huh, you can get it. You can watch you can actually watch and make sure that it actually is me. It's debating and it's a debate we have a moderator and we have a thesis statement and we have time equal time and we have cross-examination and oh, I know and There are numerous other people Muslim apologists that I have debated and I've never debated Zakir Naik.

I'd love to There are some names out there that I would love to have the opportunity of debating someday in the future. But when I say I've debated these people It would never cross my mind to say that if I if I happen to run into Shabir Ali at an airport and I talked with him in the TSA security line.

That I had debated him. It would never cross my mind to even to even think to make a claim like that and yet I have had people Contacting me going. Well, you know. That's sort of like a debate or like, you know, if you have like an email exchange with somebody wait a minute words have meanings.

Listen to this phrase again this sentence again. He is debated leaders in Hinduism Buddhism Islam Baha 'i Taoism and many cult leaders notice the end of the sentence in 40 states and 11 countries. When you talk about the exact number of states and the exact number of countries you're talking about a specific activity.

You're promoting yourself as having Experience and expertise in these fields. Don't don't tell me That this is well, you know, he was sitting next to a guy a Buddhist on a plane. They flew over seven states and they talked about football.

That's not having a debate. Words have meanings and If it was a conversation or an interview would that communicate the same thing to potential students? Well, he's actually interviewed a number of people.

Is that gonna cause you to go? Oh, I I better go to that seminary because he's interviewed people. Of course not. There's a reason the term debate is being used and So people began sending me information because I asked where can I get these debates?

Well, they sent me to this this little website where he did some interviews. Not a one with a Muslim and I'm like, this is it that this this is this is all there is. What where's all these Muslim ones, I mean he's the expert in Islam, isn't he?

Where's all the Muslim debates? Where's his debates with Shabir Ali or Bassam Zawadi or or as of a car Ali Shah or Adnan Rashid or or any of these? Individuals that I've debated and You can actually listen to those debates and or at least confirm with those individuals that I debated them.

I Even asked for any Muslims who have debated her can can or to contact me because I'd like to know who they are. I'd like to track those things down and so I asked at that point stuff started coming in and Someone sent me a Link to a newspaper article from January of 2006 where can or made the specific claim to having done at that point 61 debates with Muslims.

Now when you come up with a specific number like that 61. Doesn't that communicate something to you other than? Conversations with somebody do you keep track of the number of? Conversations you've had or do you keep track of the number of debates you have done things you actually prepared to do worked on.

Well, of course the answer is obvious, but still there are people that just don't get it and they're like, well, you know We don't really know what debate means. So words are very fluid Postmodernists out there.

And so I asked Eric and Kenner directly by via Twitter. We're all these debates. I'd like to watch them. Could you please let me know and then it got silent. And it got silent because dr. Kenner's response to me was to block me from his His page and I have posted a graphic of that on the blog.

This user has blocked you from following them. Well that they can't actually do that. They can do that as long as your blog as a you're logged in if I don't log into Twitter and I just put in Eric and Kenner I can see anything that he said so it just makes it harder to do it.

But you can still you know, read whatever they have to say and. So I guess that's my response to that and So it's been amazing the number of people who contact me well, you know I just think you should have had a cup of coffee with the man.

Folks these are publicly made claims. What happened to integrity? The Muslims know he hasn't done these things the Muslims the Muslims look at this and go. Oh, wait a minute you people talk about being truthful you people talk about following him who is the truth and yet here is this guy and he makes all these claims and I gotta admit Eric Eric and Kenner says some amazing things about Muslims talks about towel heads and There's this one where he starts off talking about no I didn't drive a cab and have my shirt open down to my navel and gold chains in my chest hair and I I'm just sitting here going you've got to be kidding me evidently.

He thinks that you know, I can do that because I'm Turkish and so I can go ahead and you know Rib my own people or whatever else. Okay, fine. Wonderful. Where's the beef. Where is the evidence? Here we have a man who's the head of a seminary in the Southern Baptist Convention and He makes claims about what gives him Expertise to speak on these subjects and when you ask could you could you show us some of these things you can't find anything.

Actually, Sam sent me a link to a Lee Strobel television program where he was on with two other people and The subject was is do Christians and Muslims worship the same God and the two other people said yes, and he said no.

And he was right. I appreciate what he had to say, but it wasn't a debate. It was like a 10-minute interview. That's not a debate. But if it is we now have one of the 61 What is what is he communicating by his own self-promotion?

And is it honest and people that why should you care because I minister to Muslims. That's why We should all care. How many black eyes does evangelicalism have to get before someone will say hey, you know what?

Maybe if you're going to Say I've done X number of debates against X number of people there might it might be good to at least be able to document most of them I mean There are a couple of my debates you probably couldn't get hold of anymore because they were from way way way back when and like You can't watch the Paco debates from San Diego because the Roman Catholics won't give us the videotapes but you can listen to them and There's lots of witnesses and Mitch Paco would say.

Oh, yeah, we do those debates you could find witnesses. But you can't do that with anything that Eric and Kenner's talking about so I Just wonder how that is. And so someone directed me to this video and Eric and Kenner is speaking to the extreme winter o9.

This is a youth group. He's wearing a hoodie and Sort of has like a towel For some reason I'm not sure what that is, but I want you to hear what he says these kids. It's not just an isolated thing. Listen to what he says right here.

Unapologetic. He was telling you about my debates. I debate anyone. I Have a standing order that I will debate anyone any time any place. Usually it's in universities and colleges. You know what I'm talking about the community colleges.

In state universities a Campus crusade group will have me in and I will debate anyone. Hindu Buddhist. Every type of Muslim Sunni Shia. I'll await the Druze. We'll have a. I've never debated a hobby but just about all of them.

Taoists Shintoists Confucianists.

Anybody because I There you go. I Debate anybody. I've debated them all that's me. I'm out there on the front lines. I know what these people do and I Interact with them. I am an expert on these things because if you debate someone and if you debate them well You cannot just know Christian Christianity well, you have to know what they believe.

Well, you need to know their language. You know their understanding of of the world. You need to be able to communicate with them. Those are big claims. I know the work that goes into Trying to do this in a way that is proper and appropriate and honoring to God.

I know because I do it and I guess that's what makes me really upset when people just go. Oh, well, you know doesn't matter you know. Just a conversation over coffee it on a campus someplace. That's a debate.

That's fine. I'm just I don't know what even to say something like that. I just don't know what to say so I Just have to ask folks. What does it say? When someone can be given this just complete free pass.

Just complete free pass just claim whatever you want to claim. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Just just as long as we're. We're all talking about Jesus and everything's okay. That seems to be the mindset of so many people and I don't get it and It surely shows that some people just are not understanding.

That there is a level of integrity that must be maintained in doing these kinds of debates and I'm just trying to be consistent. Just trying to be consistent. So there's there's my commentary. I could have written all that up and I wrote some of it up on the blog but I Hadn't seen this particular video.

There's some pretty amazing videos on YouTube. That are that are like I said amazing so you can you can take a look at that yourself. I'm gonna cover one other thing then we'll we'll take our break and then dive into our our callers.

John Shelby Spong and the Claim That the Homosexuality Debate Is Over

I noticed on dr. Moeller's blog this morning a A discussion of Bishop John Shelby spong. Oh, yes. I'll make this. I'll make this short October 15th 2009. I've made a decision. I will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality in the church with anyone.

I will no longer engage the biblical ignorance that emanates from so many right-wing Christians about how the Bible condemns Homosexuality as if that point of view still has any credibility. I'll no longer discuss with them or listen to them.

Tell me how homosexuality is an abomination to God. About how homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle or about how through prayer and spiritual counseling homosexual persons can be cured. Those arguments are no longer worthy of my time or energy.

I will no longer dignified by listening to the thoughts of those who advocate. Advocate reparative therapy as if homosexual persons are somehow broken and need to be repaired. Etc. Etc. Etc. Basically what he says is It's over with we lost he won.

I Make these statements because it is time to move on the battle is over the victory has been won. There is no reasonable doubt as to what the final outcome of this struggle will be. Homosexual people will be accepted as equal full human beings who have a legitimate right on every right that both church and society has to Offer any of us homosexual marriages will become legal recognized by the state and pronounced wholly by the church.

Don't ask don't tell will be dismantled as a policy of our armed forces. We will and we must learn that equality of citizenship is not something that should ever be submitted to a referendum. Equality under before the law is a solemn promise conveyed to all our citizens in the Constitution itself, etc.

Etc. Etc. Bishop spong has Proclaimed the battle over the victory has been won and he will no longer debate anyone who views it. Otherwise. Well, the fact the matter is he never debated us in the first place.

Anybody who listens to my debate with John Shelby's pong and it was a debate. It took place at a location in front of an audience with a moderator time with a thesis statement. That's called a debate.

I didn't just run into Bishop spong the lobby of a hotel someplace and have a little discussion with him about homosexuality actually debated him for two and a half hours on the subject and Anybody who listens that knows but he didn't debate me.

He told his stories he Tried to Buffalo his way through cross-examination. I didn't know how to ask a question. Let alone answer a question in any in any meaningful fashion and So to say well the the debates over we win Is one of the most arrogant things I think I've ever heard anybody do but that's the arrogance of the left.

That that's that's how liberals view things you people are just so stupid That there weren't it's not even gonna we're just not even gonna lower ourselves to listen to you anymore. There are no arguments on your side.

La la la la la la la la. I Mean I can't help but think of the little kid who just sticks his fingers in his ears and therefore, you know I don't hear the argument. So there aren't any anymore. It is absolutely The battle in both our culture and our church to rid our souls of this dying prejudice is finished.

A new consciousness has arisen a decision has quite clearly been made. Inequality for gay and lesbian people is no longer a debatable issue in either church or state. Therefore I will from this moment on refuse to dignify the continued public expression of ignorant prejudice by engaging it.

I do not tolerate racism or sexism any longer. From this moment on I will no longer tolerate our culture's various forms of homophobia. I do not care who it is who articulates these attitudes or who tries to make them sound holy with religious Jargon, and he did mention some people and I'm really I Got admit I was I was just personally Devastated that I didn't make the list.

I didn't get mentioned. But it says I will dismiss as unworthy any more of my attention the wild faults and for opinions of such would-be Religious leaders as Pat Robertson James Dobson Jerry Falwell.

Excuse me. He's dead Jimmy Swaggart Albert Mueller and Robert Duncan. He included Jerry Falwell, can you believe it? Well my my country and my church have both already spent too much time energy and money trying to accommodate these Backwards points of views when are no longer even tolerable.

Well, there you go the the wonderful attitude of the left That says You know what? I know people that are that way about global warming. And all sorts of the pet issues the left you people are too stupid to debate any longer we're just not gonna have any interaction you just you're just too dumb to do it and that's how they think and People actually buy into it amazing stuff.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one can take a break and then get to our phone calls. You're right back.

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The Clarity of Scripture and Cultural Bias

And I'll go back to the value line. Let's go ahead and get to our phone calls here on the program. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with David in Chicago. Hi David. Dr. White, how you doing?

Hi, not bad. How are you good? Yeah, thanks for taking my call. I've recently been introduced to philosophy behind it. And I think I'm coming around to understanding visions play in Evaluating evidence and reaching conclusions on all kinds of it.

What does it mean more than I even realized? By my cultural background and well, obviously.

When you speak of clarity, you're you're speaking of the the nature of the revelation and how it would be perceived by an individual who is in the right relationship with God. The lack of clarity that individuals experience is not due to the nature of the revelation, but but due to the individual and Either their ignorance of God's truth the traditions they have the sinful attitudes Results of sinful actions and attitudes in their lives.

I mean there's a whole complex of things that that goes into into the the equation there and. So what you're talking about is the revelation in and of itself not necessarily revelation as it is experienced by Any one particular individual?

I mean obviously the individual who is as described by Peter Taught and stable finds great clarity in the Word of God and great harmony and Tremendous guidance and so on so forth were as I think of some of the opponents in my debates.

Well, I think of Paul's own words of the Jews. There is a veil that lies over their heart. So some of sometimes that that quote-unquote lack of clarity is actually a judgmental issue. It's a judgment on God's part against someone.

So that he hardens their hearts or blinds their eyes as a part of his judgment upon a person or a people but still for others I think of many of my Muslim friends. Is is the lack of clarity in Scripture actually do the Scripture itself or due to the?

Tremendous Things that are brought to the text of Scripture because of their pre-existing faith systems. And so I think we do talk about the clarity of Scripture. We're talking about it as it is and how it would be perceived by one who is in right relationship with God not necessarily a functional description for anyone into a particular individual or group.

Right young white North American male, how can I be confident not in just way? Reading the Bible had a totally different understanding on no.

I think that's why you have to have the proper rules of exegesis. I mean so many of the rules of exegesis are meant to Help us to transcend those very issues for example the examination of context the examination of language are meant to function as filters and Yeah, you're right.

There are many people who even if they are diligently seeking to to understand the text to write if they're not aware of How different their culture is than the culture from which the text originally came it's it is very easy to read things in and that's why it is good to read widely and to to be aware of Those those issues when you're doing your your your work.

That's why no one ever gets it all in this life. It's it's it is a it is a lifelong process. But there is a great danger there now the the the same danger However has been taken to an extreme by some who then say none of us can ever know What is really what the Word of God is really saying because we are just completely slaves of our of our cultural context.

I don't think that's the case at all either that that really would in essence say that there cannot be a divine revelation that can transcend linguistics culture the change of cultures over time etc, etc, and I just Given how long the Old Testament revelation Was in its revelation and how long it how much change there was even over that period of time.

That's certainly not how the Apostles viewed things and I think God can communicate across those cultural barriers but we do need to be very concerned about Testing our traditions and You're right if you're raised with those traditions, it's extremely hard to to do that.

But we have to do it and that's that's what real exegesis is about.

Yeah, I guess I understand that the remedy for a lot of God or for overcoming our traditions and cultural backgrounds is the exegetical method. Yeah, and I agree that's objective. But I think it can only practically be as objective as the person who's applying it.

And I think we're more subjective than we'd like to admit.

Well again if if the if the desire of the heart is to know What was originally revealed through the author and written as scripture? I don't believe in the kind of Pyrrhonic skepticism that that says well, we just we just can't know.

We can't make a determination that. That the first verses of of John clearly present to us the Logos as a as a divine person. We can't know that that first Corinthians 8 The Apostle Paul is is plainly drawing from the Jewish Shema and yet is distributing the divine activities between the Father and the Son.

I mean those those things are right there and. So while we are indeed influenced by our culture and traditions and things like that As long as we are aware of that danger and we are truly seeking to hear Paul in his culture and To not be overridden by things I believe that we can know what the scriptures are teaching and and then as we grow in our knowledge of that.