Open Q&A with Matt Slick & Andrew Rappaport | Apologetics Live 0016

Apologetics Live

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

I'm you mentioned al mola earlier Al I think he must have a man crush on me.

00:08

I don't know he can't quit talking about me. I'm not sure I Think Talk about him is cuz

00:51

Andy Stanley's got some problems Yeah, you know Matt. I don't know if you know that Andy Stanley wants to unhitch the

00:59

Old Testament He doesn't like the Old Testament. He thinks we need to unhitch the Old Testament from the

01:05

Bible What does that mean unhitch? Basically means that we should only focus on the

01:10

New Testament Well Jesus and the apostles go to the Old Testament So if we're gonna focus on the

01:15

New Testament, and then they caught the old then what do you do ignore what they did? Actually, do you every book of the

01:22

Bible of the New Testament does quote the the Old Testament except for one?

01:29

Either or at least quotes or makes an illusion. I should say, you know, which one is the only one that doesn't

01:35

Peter Philemon It's Philemon and and he wouldn't like Philemon because that talks about slavery.

01:42

That's one of the other things. He doesn't want to talk about You know I'm Andrew report from striving for eternity.

01:51

We got Matt slick from karma .org and Matt you're working on a new novella a short not short.

01:59

No. Oh, yeah a novella a short novel I like doing short novels. It's about it'll be about 80 to 100 pages and I was watching a science fiction series and The comment was made that it's really hard to write a science fiction horror and I went it shouldn't be it's so I've had this idea in my head and I Started putting it a pen to paper.

02:24

I'm on chapter 9 now and I'm about a third of the way through I guess

02:30

And it'll be sci -fi horror just for fun

02:36

Something to do besides theology all the time so Yeah, I read some of it to Anik today my wife and she got was disturbed

02:48

That's what I want so Your wife was served

02:55

So, you know, all you do is read it to a while I'm looking at her she's looking at me and then the combo It's pretty bad

03:01

Okay, looking at you is the horror part right that's the horror part. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, even though yeah

03:09

Yeah So for folks who want to get in ask questions

03:16

Obviously, we're referring to the non keyboard warriors out there that keep challenging Matt or I to discuss things but they don't

03:24

You know, I get a kick out of is our guy can beat you badly

03:29

So this is what you need to do Matt either contact him You need to arrange everything at his convenience and I want you to do this because if you don't do it method

03:36

You're a coward. But who are you? You know, that happens a lot They haven't called me come on the show.

03:42

You know the show we can talk whatever. Well, you're a coward what? Yeah stuff like that Well, I think

03:51

I think that It's always interesting they people challenge you and I all week long and we keep giving the same invitation

04:00

But they don't show up. So this is a politics life opportunity for anyone to ask questions challenges

04:08

Folks there's a lot Christians have questions about apologetics get stuck on things and this is a

04:15

Platform where unlike Matt's radio show Matt's like live here. You can have longer conversations and longer discussions

04:25

So you had last week the debate with the Roman Catholic on baptism, yeah refer to the diddicating

04:35

Unless I missed that he was gonna prove that the diddication talks about Roman Catholicism or proves

04:41

Roman Catholicism Did he ever get that's right? No. Oh, I don't know. He may have contacted me or email him but I you know,

04:47

I get so many emails I miss things but We could go over the did I K a little bit? wonder what areas

04:54

You know did I keep proves Catholicism it reminds me on on Facebook I someone said that the reason the reason

05:02

I'm Catholic is because I believe I read the Bible and I'm going yeah But you got to believe it too, you know But you know,

05:08

I said show me in the in the you know, we're all this about Mary's in the Bible. It's not so anyway

05:15

You know, we got got the diddicate I'm looking at it on karm, okay

05:24

Well, I don't you know, I'm scanning through it, I don't know I read it before but Yeah, I'm trying to take a look myself to see where does it mention?

05:35

Where's the mentioned baptism chapter 7 but concerning baptism thus baptize e having first recited all these precepts

05:43

Baptized in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit in running water. Is that what Catholics do? No But if thou hast not running water baptized in some other water and if thou canst not baptize in cold in warm water

06:00

So it should be cold running water Okay But if thou hast neither pour water three times on the head in the name of the

06:06

Father Son Holy Spirit But before the baptism let him who baptizeth and him who is baptized fast

06:13

Previously and any others who may be able and thou shalt command him who is baptized to fast one or two days before Is that what

06:23

Catholics do no, yeah, I actually thought he was gonna try to argue that We talked about this efforts at the

06:34

I we thought he's might try to argue to dedicate except sprinkling Which really would have been funny if he tried to make that argument because you're a

06:42

Presbyterian you wouldn't had a problem with the spring no, I believe it's biblical, but You know, it's that's only my position.

06:50

That's my position because I've seen scripture teach but not for salvation, of course It's a covenant sign, but Check this out on the

06:59

Eucharist chapter 9 but concerning the Eucharist after this fashion give ye. Thanks First concerning the cup we thank thee our

07:07

Father for the Holy Vine David thy son Which thou hast made known to us through Jesus Christ thy son to thee be the glory forever

07:15

That's not what they do in Catholicism. Anyway, and concerning the broken bread we thank thee our

07:20

Father for the life and knowledge which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus thy son to thee be the glory forever as this broken bread was once scattered on the mountains and After it had been brought together became one

07:34

Don't know what that means So much so may thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth unto thy kingdom for thine is the glory and the power to Jesus Forever, let none eat or drink of your

07:46

Eucharist But such as have been baptized into the name of the Lord For of a truth the

07:52

Lord hath said concerning this give not that which is holy unto dogs hmm and After it's completed pray ye

08:03

We thank thee Holy Father for thy holy name Which thou hast caused to dwell in our hearts and for the knowledge of faith and immortality which thou hast made known unto us through Jesus Thy son to thee be the glory forever thou almighty master didst create all things in the name of Those who do all this stuff so so how do you feel that you're the debate went because I know

08:30

I know we Saw the responses that the Catholics thought that you got demolished. Yeah, that's right.

08:36

I got a kick out of that Yeah, I got yeah, what's his name? He always says everything negative about me

08:44

So much so that you can't even trust anything he says but There was an accident that did happen on that so right you accidentally had

08:57

Closed it out when you were looking at your Dick did people said you were trying to end it because you got so demolished

09:08

Yeah That's what happened. Yeah Well, whatever, you know, I went right back in and the guy he heard me most of the time

09:18

I'm going oh crap what I did, you know, and and We get back on as soon as we could

09:24

I Still remember doing it going. Okay click. Yeah, it was like that You know, so, of course, they're gonna say stuff like that, but whatever

09:34

But he didn't do well. He could not prove and That water baptism is necessary for salvation and what he did repeatedly was to take verses out of the context and only

09:46

Part partially quote verses, you know, like first Peter 321 see that just now saves you see I read the whole thing

09:52

And he wouldn't you know do it I had to go through and do the whole homework for him and put it in context and he you know fought me all the way and You know then the issue of acts 238 and I asked him, you know

10:04

Repent we believe and be baptized name of Jesus Christ for the name for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the

10:09

Holy Spirit and I said, is that a formula? He goes? Yeah. Well, where's faith? Oh, it's implied

10:14

I said, but it's not gonna be a formula if it's faith isn't in there what's implied? So the formula has an implication of something, you know

10:21

It doesn't make any sense. And then I went to X 10 44 through 48 and showed him that You know people received the gift of the

10:28

Holy Spirit Before they're baptized then he went to Gamaliel Gamaliel was by the

10:35

Holy Spirit prophesied sees you don't have to be a believer to have have the Holy Spirit I said notice what it says the gift of the

10:42

Holy Spirit in both X 238 and X 10 44 to 48 and And stuff like that.

10:48

So, you know, he didn't do well and Of course the Catholics are gonna claim victory and that's what they're gonna always do

10:56

You know, they're just they're so loyal to their church and their false doctrines that it doesn't make any difference but no, he did not prove his point he did not make his case and You know, that's what it is

11:07

No big deal So if any folks want to join in you can go to a politics live dot com

11:16

Apologize live comm or org. I forget which one now actually Let's see last one there's a

11:24

Mormon. Okay, how about this? Apologize You have it up there dang, okay, you guys heard it here first met slick is a more clear it's apologetic

11:37

Oh, it was it went forward. Yeah But so yeah, so the politics live comm there's a link to join there and I know it works because cats in here.

11:48

So I don't know if cat has any questions. She likes come in and Stalk us in here.

11:54

That's what I think. Well, you know what? Someone sent me something. It's worth looking at All right, the fourth degree oath of the

12:01

Knights of the color of Columbus. I mean he said you got to hear this and Usually he's pretty good about IDing stuff.

12:07

That's pretty whacked But ton of you can go for that if you want or just people just come in and ask questions. Actually, I'm gonna go into Discord and tell people hey you want you want a piece of me?

12:22

Come on in here Yes Two nights ago two nights ago was it last night?

12:30

I was talking a bunch of atheists I went into the in discord and it's another chat thing and I just go in there I just I'm into a room by myself.

12:37

I'm whatevering on on one screen. I look over and people are there How'd they get there? You know, they know

12:42

I was here next thing. You know, there's 30 people in there and They're asking me questions. I get this this one guy's atheist.

12:49

He's agnostic and he offered this scenario Two worldviews

12:56

Everything's identical except for one thing Worldview a Says that worldview

13:03

B is wrong What can't be true? But we're worldview B says that both worldview a and B are true

13:12

And I said, sorry doesn't work. You can't have both things because we went over this for a half hour

13:17

Well, he said yes, it's possible. I go show me how it's possible. He couldn't But this is the kind of stuff

13:23

I've been having to deal with it's I'll tell you it's Well, so let me throw this out there's an argument that's being that's been made and I've heard a lot people respond but I haven't heard you actually respond to an argument that atheists have been or not actually just atheists, but people that are support abortion

13:43

Try to argue. So here's the scenario you are in a clinic

13:48

There's a thousand frozen embryos and your own daughter. There's a fire on what and your own door

13:57

So it's you're with your daughter There's a fire you can only say you can save either your daughter

14:05

Or the thousand embryos that there so the argument that those embryos Christians would say are living our life

14:14

So do you save the thousand embryos or the one? Daughter I save them both

14:22

Well, if you can only save one then I would what I would choose to do then is save them both You got to choose one now

14:33

Yeah, I choose the one I choose is it is to try and save them both both sides, you know

14:40

Okay, so you try to save them both see I would argue that I have a responsibility as a father to take care of my daughter and So I don't you know,

14:50

I don't have a responsibility to save other people's daughters there. I could try But the art

14:57

I think the argument would be that the the doctors there would have to save them They're gonna make up a ridiculous scenario and there are no doctors and you're on the planet

15:06

Venus and Actually, what happened is there's a gravitational flux. And so you only have eight point three minutes to To figure the lock and then now what are you gonna do?

15:16

That's just that they do that kind of thing I just say look I'll try and save them both If we can only pick one

15:24

Why not have like for me have my daughter save the embryos and I'll save my daughter win -win.

15:31

Hey That okay. There you go That has a good answer have my daughter save the embryos.

15:38

I'll save her done Hey, that was brilliant Happens once every five ten years

15:47

Well, I guess you're gonna restart the clock now, huh? Yeah, I'll be quiet It's a good answer

15:57

I like it. So let's see what we got in new articles on karm. Ooh Matt slick you wrote something on toxic masculinity and Christian Let's go over that one

16:14

Because that's kind of an interesting topic these days with what the American Psychological Association has come out.

16:22

Yeah Yeah, let's see. Yes. I did.

16:28

I got tired of hearing about toxic masculinity masculinity is not toxic So let's let me just give the link for folks if you go to karm .org

16:38

slash toxic dash masculinity Dash Christianity.

16:43

Yeah, I can't edit it I Can't get in or edit. I Locked myself out of my own website.

16:51

So I could have it's gonna take a while to get back in What's that? Edit thing.

16:57

No, once I've let it sit for a day or two. I go back in I usually edit it but That's okay. I already see

17:02

I already see Where do you see an error? I think I can do it over in this one on a lower level entry.

17:10

I can get in there Yeah, let's see, you know, I should I should go in and edit this and say by Andrew Rapsley, yeah

17:20

Now I can edit on I have a I have several logins and this one doesn't have as much Right, all right, let's let's go over this why don't you start may not everyone knows what happened with the

17:32

APA One give it see if some background what what ended up happening with APA that on this whole issue of masculinity and then why don't we go over this paper that you have and Well, the

17:47

APA is basically Attacked masculinity And said that it can be violent and bad and all this stuff, you know the

17:57

AMA must be it's a bunch of leftist servants of Wackleness, I know what's up with them, you know, you'd think that they could think better than what it is that they do think

18:10

You backtrack and I'll show you something. So Trump wants to build a wall the southern border and people say the wall itself is immoral

18:19

Some people say that well No A wall is not immoral a wall consists of stones and bricks and masonry and wood or plastic whatever

18:28

That's what a wall is. How is a stone immoral? It's not that it's the intentionality that goes along with it

18:34

So you have to separate the wall from the intention of the ones who would use or whatever forever purpose because that's where morality comes in Toxic masculinity is similar

18:45

And then what they want to do is designate masculinity with toxicity and Say that it's bad.

18:55

Well You know, it's not toxic mask toxic masculinity. It's bad behavior

19:01

That's all the issue is So what I did was I went and looked up definitions of masculinity I found four

19:09

Got the links for him everything having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man

19:16

Pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men having qualities traditionally ascribed to men as strength and boldness

19:22

Having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a man

19:29

Okay so It doesn't make sense to say it's toxic masculinity because masculinity is not toxic.

19:37

We're not good. It's not bad It's just masculinity. So when the leftist moron wackos

19:44

Do this kind of a thing? They're not thinking clearly and that's you know, the AMA has already been going downhill over the years

19:49

It's politically correct propaganda in a lot of its Sexual mores redefinitions and things like that.

19:56

And so the issue is masculinity is not good or bad. It's just masculinity That's what I said in the article but you know

20:03

What they're doing with a couplet toxic masculinity is associating masculinity with toxicity. That's a problem

20:09

It shouldn't do that. But if there is toss toxic masculinity, then there must also be toxic femininity and toxic adolescence and toxic childhood

20:20

What do these things mean you just assign toxic to something as they see so what they do is they redefine masculinity?

20:28

Associated with toxicity and what they'll do is they'll say it has to do with being aggressive Sexually how messy?

20:35

Oh, yeah, here's what the AMA said how masculinity can hurt in its article how masculinity can hurt mental health

20:41

Really how masculinity can hurt why not say how femininity can hurt mental health?

20:47

How why not say how adolescents can hurt mental health? How about this title how the

20:52

AMA? The APA excuse me American Psychological Association can hurt mental health.

21:00

Why not that how about toxic psychology? How about toxic whatever how about toxic?

21:06

Democrats, you know, I'm not Democrat or Republican either but it's just this kind of thing is stupid.

21:12

It's a propaganda Approach To a thing now Morality deals with the issue of the heart

21:19

And so if something's going to be toxic who gets the right to say what is toxic what is good? What is bad?

21:24

It's the leftist agenda that wants to attack masculinity and Well, I'll tell you

21:30

I am sure Tired of my masculinity being attacked by the media When I watched commercials this gets me going.

21:37

I was these Geico commercials the Geico. No, it's a progressive and They always have these guys who are wimpy

21:46

Almost effeminate, but not quite that bothers me. I don't want to be associated with that and You know,

21:54

I'd rather be associated with that lizard thing, you know, at least you know and I Remember I've seen over the years

22:02

I've seen so many instances where men are portrayed as buffoons as Idiots as incapable of understanding things where women have to be the ones controlling them

22:12

Women's have to be the one correcting them women have to be the ones teaching them and it happens over and over in television and movies and things like this and what

22:19

I see in the movies for example is is men are either buffoons or they're they're serial killers or they're you know hulking massive supermen who can do incredibly great things and these extremes of Masculinity are portrayed and an average guy like me.

22:37

Yeah It's a problem. I'm gonna say something. I'm going jumping around a little bit. Let me read something out of of all things psychology today

22:46

This I love this. This is what they said in no culture ever

22:51

Studied have women repeatedly preferred to mate with pear -shaped low -status tepid men

22:57

Possessing high -pitched nasal voices in no documented culture do women's sexual fantasies revolve around granting sexual access to Unemployed unambitious men who occupy the lowest stratum of the social hierarchy instead women are attracted to toxic masculine male phenotypes that correlate with testosterone and they are desirous of men who are socially dominant who are strategically risk -taking in their behaviors and who exhibit patterns of behaviors that will allow them to ascend the social hierarchy and Defend their positions from encroachers.

23:31

Of course, this does not imply that women are not attracted to intelligent sensitive kind warm and compassionate men

23:37

The ideal man is rugged and sensitive masculine and caring aggressive in some pursuits and gentle in others

23:45

Think of the male archetype in romance novels, which is literary a literary form almost exclusively read by women

23:52

He is a tall prince and a neurosurgeon He is a risk -taker who wrestles alligators and subdues them on his six -pack abs

24:01

And yet is sensitive enough to be tamed by the love of a good woman That's what

24:07

I said in psychology today. I can read my next paragraph I said Oh, no If I'm not a six -pack ab packing neurosurgeon who's in touch with his emotions is caring and can wrestle alligators and I'm in trouble

24:18

Wait, I'm autistic Asperger's have one ab and I'm afraid of alligators.

24:24

Thanks. I'm obviously somehow wrong as a man So but wait, I did get misty. I'd wouldn't just had to put my cat down which

24:31

I had to do this week It was not fun So, you know, anyway, you know the thing what which cat?

24:37

The orange one Finney. Oh He wasn't doing well It was not good. At any rate

24:43

So the thing is, you know, this toxic masculinity in my opinion is nothing more than it's an attack on masculinity period

24:50

It should be just bad behavior That's all can men act badly. Yeah, can women act badly?

24:58

Yeah Just call it bad behavior That's what you got to do

25:05

Not it's bad behavior. You know, it's another example of manly or male bad behavior

25:11

What happens to people when they constantly hear toxic masculinity they associate toxicity and masculinity

25:19

This is what happens first time I became aware of this kind of a thing where manhood was being attacked

25:26

Was a Volvo commercial if I remember it was a brand of Volvo was correct I remember it is a beautiful girl woman in the driver's seat and the man was in the passenger seat

25:37

So she's in control and he was ignorant and she was explaining she was in control of everything

25:44

I remember looking going. Well, of course a woman could drive a car and and no more than a guy Of course, but it just it just it was like something just a light went on like wait a minute

25:54

This is here. We are again And I noticed and this is what started to be going I've seen this before too many times this pattern where men are incompetent men are dumb men are the ones who need to be corrected and tamed and Corrected by women and I'm not saying that some men don't don't need that but it was it's just too pervasive

26:16

I'd recommend if anybody's listening go to Netflix and watch I think it's called the red pill and Done by a feminist

26:26

I'm gonna watch it again. It is Eye -opening. It's extremely eye -opening what's happening in America and the attack on manhood and Masculinity is being attacked now in that same article.

26:40

I know I'm I'm going Christ is the perfect example of masculinity Jesus Christ God in flesh a man.

26:48

How did he exemplify his manhood? He loved he taught he wept he healed he welcomed children

26:56

He taught that we ought to honor and serve God. He overturned temple tables. He defended righteousness

27:02

He called people harsh things. He promoted self -defense. He condemned unrighteous behavior and beliefs and he sacrificed himself

27:09

Or just some of the things that the best example of masculinity Had so what gets me is what if you had a man like Jesus?

27:19

Who never sinned never does anything wrong and he went through and he overturned temple tables?

27:28

Or he went to a place a big church Famous church and threw people out and got mad and called him names.

27:34

That's toxic masculinity right there And the problem is that the left will accuse people of things even when they're right

27:43

Any form of aggression any form of anything? They can call negative is then labeled by the leftist propaganda machine as toxic masculinity.

27:52

It's a problem in America One of my greatest greatest compliments my ever my wife ever gave me

27:59

Was she said? Matt there's no femininity in you That's a great compliment to me it's not because femininity is bad femininity is great femininity femininity, that's my wife's job

28:11

I don't want her being masculine. I don't want that and that will destroy our marriage.

28:16

I don't I don't need that But you know, I'm a man and I'm gonna behave like a man. I think like a man.

28:21

I am a man I'm not I'm not ashamed of being a man. No problem But I'll tell you

28:27

I get sick and tired of these morons on TV and all over the place

28:33

Just one other way of attacking Men, just just I wish they'd stop wish they would provide shows on TV that are positive

28:44

That have good men doing good things and sacrificing where they have wisdom

28:49

I mean Bill Bill Cosby show was great Yeah, I know he turned out to be wacko and some other areas and some stuff

28:55

But that show was great a good example of good masculinity. Why don't we have more shows like that on TV?

29:02

Why don't we have more stuff like that? Showing us how things ought to be but no, so the left and the wickedness of the world promotes all kinds of bad behavior and Publicizing bad behavior and then complains when people act badly

29:18

Hey Okay, I'm done, okay, it helps if I actually unmute myself

29:30

So see, I mean this you brought up the thing that I always found interesting is that they never want to focus on It's always attacking the masculinity not never feminine never attacking and really what it is is it's it's an

29:46

You know a political agenda of the left to try to silence men silence

29:52

Christianity Anything that disagrees with their leftist worldview Yeah you know you

30:00

Well, we're seeing this whole bunch of areas, but let's so Edison is here. I'm gonna add him in He said he has got some questions for you and Matt see you remember

30:10

This is the fellow who is from the Philippines from Cebu, Philippines Okay, and I should mention

30:18

Snatching from the flames I got to look for the data on this this is When Justin Peters, and I will be in the

30:26

Philippines. I got to find out when that is Let's see Find that of course

30:36

I can't find it right now, but we'll be both Justin Peters and myself will be in the

30:41

Philippines on In I think

30:46

May and And It'd be good if I had that like right in front of me for me to To talk about it, but we're gonna be we'll be in Cebu we'll be in Manila for a week, and then we're going to Cebu for three days

31:05

To do a discernment conference and so anyone that's in the Philippines You could check that out.

31:11

I'll put the link somewhere on my home page so Edison How you doing, well, let's see you're not muted your volumes up Edison you there

31:30

All right, he may have a problem with his mic

31:36

Who will do is until when he comes in he could let us know we'll go to Andrew had Andrew also came in so Andrew What questions do you have tonight?

31:48

You can unmute yourself Yeah, just I'm muted sorry Andrew No problem

31:54

Andrew Just got to think there might be a delay to Christianity is getting a bit stale the way

32:04

I May be the way I look at it. I Guess I'm trying to deal with that myself

32:11

My church has gone through a whole lot of Problems of its own

32:17

Pastorship issues new pastor. We've got to meet and figure that one out where we go, etc with that Got me considering my own position within Christianity and wondering whether I'm Whether it's still viable and you know

32:38

Well, but I wouldn't say viable but whether I can believe it anymore

32:46

Why because people in your church are behaving badly Uh, no, just because I just see the whole not just in my church, but in just about every other church

32:54

I just did to me to me the Bible like you read a song you can read about it

32:59

Pretty much quite the Bible Just wondering where can I go? What sources can

33:05

I go to for that? Let me ask you let me ask you let's say you want to give up on Jesus.

33:11

What are you gonna put in place of Jesus? That's the thing I don't know

33:17

How about atheism? What do you think? I've seen my brothers. No way

33:23

Okay, how about how about Islam? Nabil Qureshi David Woods the way

33:33

Recent debates don't want Islam. I'd replace it with I don't know

33:39

So Islam it is out uh How about uh,

33:44

I don't know that we evolved from uh lower life forms of slime through incredible Mutational progression and what here we are

33:54

How about that? Unfortunately, I don't know why well, fortunately,

33:59

I don't buy evolution either. I can't see what how you're kind of stuck You're kind of stuck

34:05

Pick out we're gonna pick something else for you besides Jesus who's God in flesh fulfilling the prophecies

34:11

Bearing your sin in his body rising from the dead and promising to return. I mean you got to find something better than that I don't know.

34:20

What are you gonna do if you leave christianity? It doesn't exist does it? No, so you're looking at other churches and they're not behaving properly.

34:31

So This is why you are considering giving up christianity because people are morons because they don't believe what jesus said uh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's just that I just I just think i'm going through a questioning stage or a burnout stage.

34:47

I think I've been i've been doing it for a long time despite every church i've been involved in i've been in the music team uh

34:57

I've secret i've totally believed it. I don't know if I want to cut it off. I I I think cutting it off is not going to be good

35:06

Well, let me ask you let's say you go to church and uh You've been going there faithfully and and whatever and they're not perfect people.

35:12

They mess up They whatever some good people some bad people, you know, and one day to your utter incredible surprise the pastor gets up And he says instead of a sermon i'm gonna ask questions

35:23

He says, uh, he goes I don't believe in christianity more. I don't believe in christ I don't believe in this. I don't believe how many are with me and everybody's hands go up.

35:32

Everybody's hands go up except yours Would that mean that christianity is not true

35:38

No So what does christianity deal with? then From my understanding deals with sin

35:46

There you go. Are you a sinner? Absolutely. Yeah Uh, so it's irrelevant whether anybody accepts or not this issue of christianity

35:56

How well they do and churches are not anywhere everywhere. That's not the issue The issue is you're a sinner, you know that you got to deal with that through jesus christ

36:04

And that's the only way you got to if you're gonna, you know, what else you're going to go to Well, yeah exactly

36:12

Exactly anyway, so I mean I just think I I just needed to thresh it out to someone

36:18

Yeah, yeah, well I had to do the same thing to be honest a few years ago um, I got to the point where it was just a lot of stuff going on and a lot of issues and difficulties and some things and And you know i'm constantly debating unbelievers and their reasoning and their thinking and it's it can be pretty tough

36:33

And there's always spiritual attack and um I remember thinking okay You know

36:41

If I gave up christianity Where would I go? And I went through the same thing, okay evolution

36:47

Not happening, uh atheism. That's a joke islam. Forget it Uh mormonism that's stupid catholicism.

36:55

That's just traditional legalism and I just know it's whacked Uh, I kept going. I go. What would

37:01

I give up jesus for you know, I went through that iteration, too Okay Yeah, thanks

37:09

There's actually that's me again that's you yeah, welcome to the club The other thing

37:15

I was going to say is just in relation to the toxic masculinity issue uh that video before I got in there to put my dislike on there there had been uh,

37:26

I think it was four hundred Thousand dislikes and 1 .5

37:32

million. I'm sorry 400 000 likes 1 .5

37:39

million dislikes I checked it this morning and it's 712 000 versus 1 .5 million

37:44

In the video on what what video there's a gillette ad on toxic masculinity.

37:50

So most people are against it or for it uh Against so the dislikes are outnumbering the likes but the likes are catching it up slowly

38:01

Well, i'm not going to buy gillette period. I I've made a decision right away It's not their job to do that kind of a thing

38:08

It's not their job to engineer social structures and address these things their job is to produce a good razor

38:13

And if they can't do it by and if they're gonna start preaching to me about what I ought to be doing. Screw you It's my

38:20

What's that I'm going to wall instead because shit aren't doing much. I'm doing a good job either

38:27

Yeah I'm tired of social engineering from the left and the wackos and the morons want to tell me what to believe And don't have a right to make any judgments

38:34

Uh, it's ridiculous Just put into perspective the same person who worked on the gillette ad also did a

38:42

I think it was a female ad ad that was utterly hilarious, too You are

38:52

I am so tired of being preached at by the left so tired of being

39:00

Told what is moral what is good? What is right by the the intelligentsia? Who don't even know what is right or wrong who just lift their finger put it up in the air

39:10

And then try and decide or discover what is true or false Yeah um, you know morally based on on their opinions and social norms and the majority vote the idiocy of these people they get they assault christian thought

39:29

And then they want to support moral truth Where are they getting their morals from?

39:38

Man So, you know You know if you if you doubt christianity it happens, you know, but the thing is

39:47

I remember my wife and I were talking about this last night. Where would we go? To one

39:54

You know jesus has the words of eternal life Awesome Yeah Thanks for clearing that one up Are you better I don't want to have to come out there and slap you around and say stop it

40:07

You know, but You can you can ask dan to do it. Dan. Uh, Dan patterson to do it if you want

40:15

Okay found the verse i was looking for john 6 68 So i'm going to read 66 67 68.

40:21

It's just it's important as a result of his many of this jesus teaching about um

40:28

Flesh prophets nothing. You can't come to him. Let's be granted him of the father As a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore

40:38

So jesus said to the 12 you do not want to go away. Also, do you and simon peter answered him lord to whom shall we go?

40:45

You have the words of eternal life That has ministered to me so many times. Well, what's better than jesus?

40:52

Nothing Yeah Yeah That uh song jumps into my head where else have we to go when you alone have words of eternal life

41:03

Yeah, I mean if I want to get replace jesus gotta be better than jesus Which for some reason

41:10

I just don't think is possible Yeah, it makes sense Spending time with my family though.

41:18

It's a case of uh, I go through about a month of depression Well, you know, uh

41:25

It can happen. How old are you? 40 now Okay So what you have to do is look for triggers look for triggers and make sure you're getting sleep exercise and good diet

41:34

Stay away from sugar Yeah, well Ironically, I also have asperger's.

41:40

Okay. Yeah, I do too. Yeah So it's yeah, it's not easy.

41:46

I was diagnosed when I was uh, 22, I think Okay My time.

41:51

Yeah well uh I trust me I can relate and what

41:57

I would say is What helped me? Because people don't understand what what what you mean?

42:04

I understand because when you don't have social skills, that's what asperger's is among other things

42:11

Then when you go out and about you're always Doubting your ability to even relate properly to basically anybody

42:18

You don't know if you're saying the right thing or not saying the right thing if you're reading them right or reading them wrong And so what that can have an effect on you is to not do anything to not want to go anywhere

42:27

It can cause you to doubt your own sanity not necessarily sanity But your own ability to even communicate and relate to people and we need people we need that social interaction even aspies do yeah, and so So the two things that I did that helped me a great deal was

42:42

I studied body language Body language is and triggers. So body language is

42:47

I would learn. Um I did this when

42:53

I was younger very young. So if i'm talking to somebody they're looking away a lot They're not interested what i'm saying

42:58

And so I would change a topic or ask a question about them and it wasn't manipulation It was just a survival methodology and then after a while it became habitual and now i've learned by correcting myself

43:09

Oh, you got to do this. You got to do that and normal People do that too

43:15

I just had to do mine more cognitively and then triggers are those things that cause you to go into a state of depression

43:20

And so I figured for me anyway, if you figure out what a trigger is Then what you can do is isolate the trigger and say this is simply a trigger for me it worked

43:30

And so now when I have something that hits me, uh, you know, that's there's always externals and pressures.

43:36

I go that's a trigger And it it's just a trigger And then what I do is I look in the mirror and see how great

43:41

I am Yeah I also found dale carnegie's books to help the what dale carnegie

43:50

Dale carnegie. Yeah, he has some good stuff. Believe it or not. Yes Not just how to uh win friends and influence people he has another one out the essential people skills effectively being assertive

44:04

Try the body language stuff Yeah, try the body language stuff. It's when I show people

44:09

I show some autistic people what I mean they go. Oh That makes sense and then they they get it that's why

44:18

Whenever andrew and I are together, I manipulate him all over the place and he doesn't realize it because you know, he's he just Yeah, well

44:28

I also try several help groups, you know They were absolutely useless.

44:33

Basically. What I found was the sp just wanted to do their interests in a different place That's what it is and you have to realize that you have to adapt to others most people are self -centered most people are self -centered and so You know, they're going to want to talk about themselves such as nature and let them you know, yeah, that's great

44:55

Thanks, all right, man All right. So edison has a question I'm hearing something

45:05

Hello Hey Sorry Who had the question?

45:13

Edison because Maybe his mic's not working. Yeah something wrong with my mic. So here's his question Uh, let's type it in here

45:22

Okay in line with omniscience of god and his sovereignty kindly explain this verse and it's jeremiah 19 .5

45:31

that says They have built the high places of baal to burn their children in the fire of the fire as offering to baal um, so something

45:44

I did not command or mention nor did I Did it enter my mind

45:52

So I guess he wants an explanation of jeremiah 20, uh, jeremiah 19 .5 in light of god's omniscience and sovereignty

46:01

Yeah, it's just an anthropomorphism when he says it didn't enter my mind it has to do with the context of him speaking Uh to to people, of course, he knows all things and he knows exactly what anybody and everybody's going to do

46:12

So when generally speaking when he talks about that did not enter my mind He's talking about the issue of look

46:17

It's not something that is considered as being a reality or what's going you guys are going to be doing And that's really what the explanation is

46:23

God will change his mind we see in scripture He will ask questions or he knows the answers to for example

46:29

When he went into the garden of adam and eve and they were hiding adam, where are you? He knows the answer So he speaks

46:36

Anthropomorphically to people and so when he says here nor did it ever enter, uh, nor did it enter my mind

46:41

What's he talking about? They built the high places and incidentally i've been to a high place when

46:46

I was in uh, Israel, we went to near the border of syria. We went to a high place

46:53

And uh, it's really not what you think I could talk about it really fast. We went through this path along this creek

46:59

And we go up higher and higher and higher. It wasn't like 18 000 feet up it was just a couple thousand feet up and it was up near the top of a of a hill and um

47:09

And there was this this construction It was just made of old really old stones and it was a high place oh, that's what it looks like and about as big as uh,

47:19

I don't know, maybe 20 feet by 40 feet, you know something like that 20 30 by 20 at range

47:25

Um, anyway built the high places to burn their sons and the fires burnt offerings to baal a thing Which I never commanded or spoke of nor did it ever enter my mind and um so, uh what

47:38

Commentators generally understand this to mean is that It never entered his mind in the sense of something that he had desired or wanted it to happen in any way shape or form

47:50

Uh, he hadn't commanded it He hadn't spoken of it It was not there in his mind for those things uh, and that's

47:59

That's how I understand it All right

48:05

Hey, let me uh matt i'll give a shout out to dennis wilson in youtube, he says i'm delusional

48:12

I don't know where he is He's delusional himself He must be because I said if he doesn't come in he's just a keyboard warrior

48:20

I love I love how people challenge us matt and tell us we're delusional and we can't win any arguments and they don't show

48:28

And are they hiding behind nicknames? I don't know. It's well dennis.

48:33

Wilson could be a real name Oh, okay. Okay. Usually they do usually they hide behind fake names and they don't want to give wait

48:41

The catholic guy didn't want to give his name Last week

48:47

I guess not when you were on bapu No, he he didn't want to but he finally did

48:53

I think it was him. Yeah, he did. He did It's polite rather than calm people by the

48:59

You know Why are they afraid? You know, i'm asking fair questions.

49:05

Come on. Let's you know, what's your name? You're not risking anything Well, I prefer not to say okay.

49:10

Bye I challenge andrew to pay for matt's dinner There's no challenge

49:16

I like jason manning. I think he's got a good idea And it's gonna be i'm gonna have started ordering some really

49:26

Substantial dinners here I was gonna let you buy dinner if you came to my daughter's wedding I was more than happy to let you pay for that, you know

49:34

Yeah, probably it was no option to pay or probably something what you had up your sleeve If you had 10 grand laying around, you know, it's not like Yeah Matt pick a great restaurant.

49:48

Oh, we have we have picked some good ones. I got a suit In new york just saying okay

49:58

So now what are we going to talk about? Well, let's while we wait for dennis to to see if he's uh

50:03

Well, we'll see if he's man or chicken, I guess. Um But why don't why don't we give a shout out to our sponsor my pillow?

50:11

um great pillows Um, you can order them Uh, they they constantly by the way that go you when you get them

50:19

Usually have some deals where you can get it like two four or four and get one free or three get one free sound like that, but Um, I would suggest doing it because once you try it you're going to want to replace all of your pillows

50:32

Or you're going to have like me you're going to have one that you sleep on and one that you travel with So you always have it in the bag?

50:39

Because it is really that comfortable And so if you want to get one and and sleep the way matt and I do

50:46

Because we both have them you can call 1 -800 -944 -5396

50:54

That's 1 -800 -944 -5396 You can mention that you heard it on apologetics live

51:01

Uh, this goes to actually help support Matt slick live the matt slick radio station or mastic radio show that is monday through friday five days a week

51:12

For one hour and you can get that link if you want to listen Those are always actually if you want to listen to it on podcast just do a search for matt slick

51:22

Um, and you'll get that on podcast, but you can also go to carm and get the number to call in um, and of course charlie is dropping the links in in uh,

51:32

YouTube because he's just that quick um, but there's a bunch of radio

51:37

I forget how many radio stations now that he's on But that is what it goes to support. So get your my pillow

51:44

And let them know you heard it here The the thing of other some other announcements is i've mentioned the um

51:53

The snatch them from the flames if you're in the philippines, you can go to need god .ph

51:59

need god .ph Slash snatch and that's going to have the details to register for both the manila conference and the cebu conference

52:09

Both of them you can register there. That will be May 25th is when we'll be in manila and May 28th

52:21

We will be in cebu Uh, so all the details are there at need god .ph

52:27

slash snatch and so Matt you've been over in in the philippines and you really like that duck, uh that duck egg, right?

52:36

Um I may have to get video of me eating it just to see your reaction

52:50

Just a thought of it uh balut is uh Developed like chicken egg duck egg where it's the embryos developing then you eat it at various stages

53:02

We'll have to ask edison to type in here what he thinks if it tastes good Yeah, it's not good

53:10

Okay, I wouldn't try it remember they were coming through like nope not happening Not doing it. Nope They're nice people there and stuff.

53:18

We rode around on mopeds a lot and uh Um, it was fun. I had a good time

53:26

All right, so dennis still didn't show up, uh, i'm gonna add john was in here I don't know if he has any questions.

53:32

Although we don't see his picture now so Um It's nasty i've uh

53:40

He said i've seen it when I was in the philippines. Yeah when I was uh in the navy way back in the day, um

53:49

We stopped in the philippines also and uh, yeah, I I got to uh see somebody eat balut, uh at first hand and uh

53:59

It is nasty It It does not look good And uh, it smells awful

54:06

And uh, it is just disgusting. It's it's a dead. It literally is like a dead chicken inside of an egg

54:12

And what they do they crack it open and they suck it all out and it is gross

54:19

And you gotta move your mic just saying so You gotta you get any questions for matt today john um, you know,

54:29

I um I I actually called in his show his radio show earlier today and um

54:37

Basically, I had a question about that and I know that we got cut off with commercials So I don't know if he expounded on that anymore, but my question was um about uh, the chromosomes of jesus when it came to his um

54:53

The amount of chromosomes that he had I heard this question on through another podcast and I thought it was such a good question where um

55:02

A human being has what 64? chromosomes, uh 32 from from the mother and 32 from the father

55:10

So the question is this being that the father is spirit how did jesus inherit the 32 chromosomes from his heavenly father

55:23

Well, there aren't any 32 23 incidentally 23. I'm sorry I can't do math

55:31

Right. So 23 chromosomes and talked about I think it was radio today. We talked about it But uh, 23 came from the mother not a problem and that would fulfill the requirements of biological descendancy

55:41

Through the messianic or through uh jewish lines and things like that and there's nothing wrong with god.

55:46

Just creating chromosomes or Doing whatever necessary to form that he did it to begin with with dna just There we go.

55:54

Dna bang and uh, so there you go. He could do that. Not a problem So in other words you're saying with adam and eve there was no

56:09

I mean there there was uh In their case they they didn't have human parents

56:17

So they would have had all the chromosomes that they needed Is your argument? Makes sense

56:26

He's gonna have 46 to be human. That's what it is And so there you go. Um, he's gonna have 46 chromosomes just like normal god put this together

56:35

That's what's going to happen. And so he could 23 from the mom and he produced 23 uh

56:41

Makes sense one way or another God the father doesn't have dna so it doesn't work. You'd have to create it.

56:47

That would be the the thing All right.

56:53

So matt you got another article that came out this week on karm. This one may get people upset

56:59

Uh looking at just the title of this america the wall president trump and the bible i'm triggered.

57:06

Yeah Uh Yeah, just so everybody knows i'm I did i'm not a republican. I'm not a democrat.

57:12

I'm a constitutionalist. I did not vote for trump and uh Okay, so I don't have any dog in this fight.

57:18

But the thing is Walls are not immoral. They are stones. They are constructions, you know the fence around my home.

57:25

It's not a moral Uh fence, you know, it doesn't argue with me about morality.

57:30

It's just wood So Um, it's the intention that people have for a wall, uh the left

57:40

The leftist I I just I always had to say the leftist wackos the leftist, uh propagandists the useful idiots, um

57:48

You should know what that phrase means from communist russia but uh

57:56

The intention of the wall Is the issue so my home We have an alarm system we have locks etc.

58:05

Why? Because it's a form of a wall. What's the purpose when we go to bed?

58:11

We lock everything up but alarms are on all that stuff and um to secure our home to secure

58:20

Who is inside of the home and to separate those outside from those inside?

58:26

There's a reason for that and so It's a moral issue that I lock the door

58:32

Not the lock on the door is a moral thing. It's not it's what's the reason for me locking the door?

58:39

if People want to get into my home because they want to harm my wife and I lock the door

58:45

Well, i'm doing that to protect her If someone wants to get in my home and uh well

58:52

You know my kid wants to get in my home and I just don't like her hairdo There's not a good reason to lock a door on her, you know, things like that But the thing is there's good and bad motives for various things that we use the wacko leftist, uh, um liberals the wls wacko leftists, um

59:15

What they'll do is walls are immoral. We don't need walls They don't need walls and then they go through their gated communities behind the walls and lock their doors at night

59:25

I got a question if uh, you know the wall for um between mexico and america

59:31

This is a question I have for the the wls wacko leftists um

59:37

If the walls are bad because they say walls are immoral I've heard the phrase by the leftists walls are immoral, but to put a wall up is immoral.

59:44

Really? Okay, then it's immoral to have a wall. Should we tear the what's down there between america and mexico?

59:50

Should we just tear them down? I'd like to know what their answer would be If they're immoral, they should be removed, right? But you want to destroy all that we have the fences and the gates and everything and i've been through Tijuana, I used to live in san diego and we went down to for several times

01:00:06

I had to go down there and uh, there was a there's a fence and there's gates and there's

01:00:12

Uh the border patrol and you know on both sides And so I guess the left wants us to get rid of all of that Just open up the gate who cares let everybody come in and let everybody just uh, you know

01:00:24

Go to our stores and not pay taxes and go back to mexico let them uh, bring drugs with them because there's no need to have a wall or whatever it might be to to uh,

01:00:34

The idiocy of walls are immoral should be obvious Now are there other technological systems we can use?

01:00:41

Well, yeah, but then how efficient are they etc, etc? so yeah, I wrote about it because it was in the news and Walls are biblical as well.

01:00:51

And um You know nehemiah built the wall wall around jerusalem and things like that But uh, there's nothing wrong with having a wall.

01:00:58

The motivation is to protect the people behind those walls To protect them

01:01:03

Not to separate us because you don't like somebody That's not a good enough reason. We're to love god and love our neighbor, but if it's to uh

01:01:12

Set boundaries of property boundary lines Walls do that. That's good Walls keep cattle in so that our property is not uh to be lost.

01:01:22

That's good Walls are there for protection. That's good So having them is a good thing for the most part

01:01:29

Why would you want a wall between mexico and the united states to prevent an invasion of illegals now folks?

01:01:35

I used to live in san diego for Close to 15 years And So I had to speak spanish and work in um in the hospital registering patients and Ask all kind of things pregnant, you know, you know, you're sick and so Uh, I know what it means firsthand to see

01:02:02

Um illegals everywhere and uh You know, it was it was bad, uh, my car was broken into Uh, my wife's car was stolen found by the mexican border um

01:02:17

There was graffiti. There's gangs. There's drugs uh, I remember working in an emergency room and um

01:02:25

I think it was uh 30 people in there And I stood up and I counted how many were hispanic

01:02:33

And um, I think 27 out of 30 were hispanic and that you know, they come up to me and register and and uh

01:02:41

You know, how long you been in the country five years eight years ten years? Are you legal and they would they wouldn't answer the question?

01:02:48

And i'm not going to turn them in i'm not going to do that. They need medical attention Absolutely come and get medical attention. They need that.

01:02:54

No, they're not a problem No problem, and nobody's going to turn them in. We don't want to do that But uh, you know how long you been here, you know five years eight years ten years you speak english no uh

01:03:05

When I would just look at them, you know, you know, I couldn't question them but uh, you know You're here

01:03:12

Why aren't you learning our language? Why aren't you becoming enculturated to american culture and ways?

01:03:17

I don't understand that if I were to go to move to france Uh, my wife speaks french if I were to move to france

01:03:23

Say we're going to be there for four or five years for whatever reason One of the first things i'm going to start to do is take uh, french as lessons.

01:03:30

I'm going to start studying it It's the first thing I'm going to start learning the language because that's the culture country i'm in but what happens with the issue of the illegals is uh

01:03:41

Is that they come over and most of them want you know want just want a better life? I don't blame them for that. Let them come in legally, but uh uh

01:03:50

You know It's an invasion Uh And then the left what they do the wackos

01:03:56

They give them driver's license to give them insurance to give them the right to vote. Well, who are they going to vote for?

01:04:02

They're going to vote for the leftist socialists It's part and parcel in my opinion to destroying this country If you want to come into this country, let them go through it legally

01:04:11

Let them do it according to the laws A nation of laws then no problem whatsoever.

01:04:16

Come on in just do it legally. Let them be vetted and that's another reason Is they need a vet who's coming across our borders we know who they are and A lot of people don't know

01:04:28

But they're now finding prayer shawls or prayer rugs Uh on our side of the border now on the unguarded areas

01:04:37

That means muslims are coming in and We don't have to talk about how bad the potential is for that why they would be wanting to come in We know what's going on there

01:04:47

You know matt one of the things that my uh, my next door neighbor has a guy he does his landscaping He's from mexico and He is very much against the illegal immigration.

01:04:59

Why? because and he still told me that many of the mexicans are against the amnesty and everything because Here he is.

01:05:08

He he can't bring his wife in he can't bring his kids in legally like he came in Because they have too many illegals that are coming in and so here he is he's been separated from his family

01:05:19

He goes back every every couple months to see his family And he can't bring them into america.

01:05:25

He's trying to work to to provide the living for them. He can't bring them in legally Because there's he said there's too many illegals here and so You know, it was he had a very interesting perspective being someone from mexico that was against it and I think the real issue is

01:05:45

You have people that are going to come into a country That believes in uh, basically having more open borders and this is the difference with america and europe

01:05:57

Europe has a welfare system And so they had closed borders wherever you go in europe.

01:06:03

There's the borders are closed. It's very strict immigration Because they have a welfare system we had an open

01:06:11

System, but we had capitalism. We didn't have welfare now that we're moving into a more of a welfare system

01:06:17

We can't keep having the open borders Because what ends up happening is what we're seeing people who come in Because they can live on the welfare system better than they do where they are and not have to do anything

01:06:28

And that's the one thing you see around the world is that you don't have a country that has both a welfare state and an open border

01:06:36

America is in this strange situation and you have people who are coming in to take advantage of that And you know, here's an interesting thing that happened when uh, who was it?

01:06:48

I think when when i'm trying to who is the republicans in office, but but when barack obama was president There was he wanted an immigration bill

01:06:57

And the republicans came up with the exact same bill except for one thing The one thing they did for the amnesty bill

01:07:04

Was that the people who got amnesty would never be allowed to vote Everything else they agreed with what barack obama had

01:07:12

And he vetoed it It tells you what they're really about what they really want is you know looking to get uh to get that We got josh who just came in um,

01:07:28

I don't see I don't see a picture for him, but you're you're now in if you want to unmute yourself.

01:07:34

Sounds like you did You have any questions here, josh uh, yeah,

01:07:40

I just wanted to ask a little bit about Where it's uh, it says in scripture about how

01:07:50

We need to be able like to stand or be in the presence of god and I guess it's part of justification

01:07:57

That we would need to have uh the righteous merit uh imputed to us and is like um before uh sinning and and and falling

01:08:13

Like how is there? Um a merit That you have that you don't need imputed to you

01:08:23

Okay, I don't even understand what you're asking You're going slowly different directions as a gigantic question with all kinds of different Aspects, so i'm not sure

01:08:32

I can No, I just what I was wanting to know is where um, which I I believe in.

01:08:38

Uh, The imputation, but I just kind of wanted more, uh scriptures where it says that uh part of justification is to be uh having a right to be computed

01:08:53

Like where in scripture does it does it um show that and like, you know, what's

01:09:00

Yes, go to philippians 3 9 we have a righteousness that's not our own the righteousness comes from god through faith in christ

01:09:08

And we need to be justified Justification is a legal standing before god and we are justified before god by faith romans 3 28 romans 4 5 romans 5 1

01:09:17

Galatians 2 16. Galatians 2 21. So the bible talks about various verses of justification and righteousness before god and so we we uh, we need to have that and um

01:09:28

Uh, philippians 3 9 says we have a righteousness. That's not our own And so there you go that those would be the words the verses some of the verses that would be used for that okay, and so like um, like before the fall

01:09:42

There there was a righteousness that mankind had Yeah, well there was his own or They they had not fallen.

01:09:51

They had not violated anything that god had said So I guess you could say in a sense.

01:09:56

They were righteous According to the law of god because they had not violated I guess my mouth here.

01:10:02

They had not violated the law of god at all. So they had a natural standing of Being right before god once they sinned that was

01:10:11

Not no longer the case and then since we cannot um Satisfy the requirements of the law deuteronomy 27 26 says the standard is perfection and paul reiterates that in galatians 3 10 but um

01:10:26

Then we have to have the only way to achieve perfect righteousness is the perfect righteousness of christ

01:10:31

Imputed to us reckoned to our account and uh That's what we see Yeah, that kind of uh clears things up I guess

01:10:45

If sin is breaking the law of god first john 3 4 so when we sin and we've And having a clean slate before god is not enough

01:10:55

You have to have merit, right? It's a catholic way.

01:11:02

You're saying things um We have the righteousness of god imputed to us by faith and therefore

01:11:11

Because of that then we're we will escape his righteous judgment Okay And you uh, and that includes the act of imputation of the act of obedience

01:11:26

Do I have any clues? No, does that include that because I know some people

01:11:31

I don't hold to that The act of obedience of christ is his uh fulfilling the law his passive obedience

01:11:39

Uh was being led to the cross where he let himself, uh did that now first peter 2 22

01:11:45

Says that he never sinned so everything that jesus did was perfect And uh, there we go

01:11:51

So i'm not sure What else to say and I sure

01:11:56

I understand your question Um, that was pretty much it.

01:12:02

It was just like clear clarifying about that because I know there's a lot of people that uh don't uh view what justification as just uh

01:12:15

The expiations of sins but that it's also uh that god requires there to be um a perfect merit

01:12:27

Well, that's heresy. That's roman catholicism right That's a heresy and the perfect merit is a stored

01:12:36

Merit grace kind of warehouse in heaven that the roman catholics disseminate at their discretion upon people

01:12:45

And uh, it's ludicrous Yeah, I was uh, uh reading that uh, the

01:12:53

Aquinas thomas aquinas said I don't know if he introduced that but he was basically saying last year christ

01:13:05

Can you hear me? Yeah oh the death of you know, like the death of christ was for original sin and then

01:13:13

Uh personal sins were um atoned through penance

01:13:20

Yeah, that's a flaming doctrine of the devil But do they still believe like do they still believe because I know thomas aquinas introduced

01:13:30

That like, you know, the blood of christ covers your original sin Yeah, that's that's a flaming load of they still believe that smoldering load of crap.

01:13:39

That's sorry. That's Sorry It is It's just it's just uh, it's a heresy.

01:13:46

It's catholicism Um run amok. Um What are those commercials they have those?

01:13:52

people Whatever um, it's just bad theology all over the place and um,

01:14:00

You know original sin is removed and then you have to keep yourself right with god by your performance and penance in the roman catholic church

01:14:05

Give me a stinking break gonna go Yeah, I think the thing about like penance is that from man's perspective

01:14:17

The sin is so much more. Uh offensive To god than it is to man himself

01:14:25

And so yeah, absolutely this way Magically offensive. So, uh when you realize that then or I was reading something about Um It was about like the satisfaction theory of atonement or no substitution, but um, you get to the point where you offended god and then um

01:14:52

You have you have a debt to pay But and then also not just having the debt to pay but not being able to pay that debt in time

01:15:02

And so that's adding on to it And uh making it even more of a offense not being able to you know to me like the time

01:15:12

I haven't seen that per se like that in scripture but uh Any sin separates us from god because uh sin is just that's what sin does

01:15:23

Just lost Need to be right with god in the roman catholic system of salvation is apostate false damnable evil antichrist doctrine

01:15:38

I made myself clear I got a kick out of when people say to me

01:15:44

Catholics say matt I can just see the day when you're going to become a roman catholic

01:15:52

Yeah, right Anyway Josh are you are you a roman catholic?

01:16:00

No, i'm not i'm not at all What church you go to Uh, it's just a uh bible, it's like a bible church, but it's basically non -denominational, but it's uh

01:16:20

It's just monergistic Which is pretty much what matters to me

01:16:26

Well good for you i'd recommend go to karm and read up the articles in christian theology on justification imputation salvation things like that and uh

01:16:36

Study up on it, you know Oh, yeah Yeah, charlie's dropped a couple links in here on some of those things

01:16:46

Good yeah Quick with that that charlie guy. He's pretty slick

01:16:53

No, that's you hey matt, do you see dennis in here yet? Dennis Yeah, the guy that said that he can prove that i'm delusional

01:17:04

I don't see him There's no proof necessary for that How about how about those catholics that said that they can cream you in a debate?

01:17:13

Where are they? uh I don't know. They're getting in line to cream me into debates,

01:17:19

I don't know All right. So let's see cat's here.

01:17:24

Cat you get any questions for mr. Slick? I still don't know why she has a

01:17:33

Hand What that's the cheshire cat it's a tattoo that's just a drawing anyways,

01:17:45

I think deep philosophical theological questions Matt have you ever had a discussion with?

01:17:54

brian head welsh of corn And about his walk

01:18:00

With god and coming turning away from his sin and giving his life to god No, I would love that Right Yeah Yeah, I don't know him as therapy.

01:18:14

I actually use it as a therapy Yeah, I heard that Yeah, it's it's good music

01:18:20

I think that's the kind of music I like but it's hard to find great christian bands with the kind of sound

01:18:25

But there are some good ones out there spoken and such but anyways, um, yeah, that's one song

01:18:32

Uh, it's I don't clown I see you see

01:18:37

I don't bottle up inside Yeah clown What is what matt does when i'm in his car and he wants to torture me that's what corn is

01:18:49

That is not true You know that I don't I don't uh, I think

01:18:54

I had I'm not gonna listen to anything in the car I don't want anybody else to hear what I hear because I don't want to force them to do that Everybody else has horrible taste of music.

01:19:02

I want to want to hear what they say what they want right, I think Celtic stuff like that or something bagpipes and guys that are walking backwards with harmonicas in their pockets

01:19:15

I don't know. He's got some weird ideas Matt listens to like country music.

01:19:21

That's no it's not happening That's not my Today though You guys like to be 52s

01:19:30

Oh, yeah, yeah, I I didn't yeah oh and fieldy I have to call out fieldy too from corn because but because Uh, brian was witnessing the fieldy and fieldy turned his life away from sin to god as well

01:19:42

See i'd like to meet these guys for two reasons. One is because I you know, I can tell them look guys

01:19:48

I have autism and I use your music as therapy. It's really helped me a great deal and that's i'm sure they probably what?

01:19:54

Is that a challenge? Because i'll try to What's that? As you say Let me teach you theology.

01:20:01

Let me teach you about the christian faith That's what I'd say. Let me just teach you let me just sit there and answer questions.

01:20:08

So it sounds like It sounds like kat is taking up the challenge that she's going to get them on here

01:20:14

So that you can know them Well, yeah, I don't know them. I don't know anything but see back when

01:20:20

I was uh, just out of high school underage I shouldn't brag about this. Um, but I was challenged by a radio station to Go into a nightclub where in hollywood where all these people were coming in for some big premiere of a magazine and um,

01:20:34

I was nobody didn't work for the station or anything just a fan of someone who's going to be there and I took That up and I went in and I met so many celebrities that night

01:20:42

Oh my goodness, so i'm like a facilitator in my life with the kids and girl scouts

01:20:47

Let me see if I can facilitate this. This is a good challenge Yeah, I would love to uh,

01:20:53

I went to my first concert ever rock concert ever was corn and rob zombie

01:20:59

I love that I'm just saying this is

01:21:05

Whether you're rob zombie or white zombie Rob, i've seen them both. Thank you very much

01:21:11

Definitely was rob zombie and uh, it was a blast with our daughters and I know that legalistic christians

01:21:18

Bad slick and maybe like uh, I just wanted to go have fun and I did and it was a great time

01:21:24

That's all it was Well, not that I was with you, but when I went What's that?

01:21:32

I said with really bad music Oh, it was a lot of fun. People were great and it was just a good time

01:21:39

And uh has enjoyed ourselves and so You're not gonna get that idaho though, right

01:21:45

It was in idaho Oh, really? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah like four miles from me and uh

01:21:54

It was fun So I could tell them that you know, I could tell the first River went to was corn rob zombie when they were here.

01:22:03

I use their music for therapy and um Uh, I want to teach them theology

01:22:09

I have not heard his full testimony, but just the snippets Oh my gosh, it's so inspiring just to see you know

01:22:18

Everybody's out there in the limelight and it's just that celebrity status that affects you when they turn to god and you're like what?

01:22:26

Wow Oh, yeah. All right. So matt we got a question coming in from youtube from tulip doctrines of grace

01:22:35

So I know you you love his name right off the bat, but here's an autism question for mr.

01:22:40

Slick Are you able to form and maintain friendships in real life?

01:22:46

Are you able to interpret facial expressions and body language? And parentheses hope the question doesn't sound mean

01:22:54

Yeah, I have uh several friends I don't need as many friends as a lot of people do and we you know

01:23:00

You had the same friend I do since you've been out here. Nathan is a good friend of mine and um

01:23:06

He has issues similar to mine and we don't need to talk to each other every day but when we get together, uh, we're like brothers and um

01:23:14

Uh, I trust him with the life of my family and he trusts me with the life of his family. So we're close uh, and Then I have a more, you know

01:23:24

Other acquaintances, you know, there's chad prigmore. We're friends and he's a pastor here and we've done things together

01:23:31

And uh stuff like that. So and then you're my friend real life. We meet every now and then and stuff so Well, it's no problem

01:23:40

I maintain friendships I think uh, and and you know, he mentions the the um facial expressions,

01:23:47

I mean one of the things That helps you is seeing people's facial expressions. You may not recognize this

01:23:53

All right, when people come in here and they don't put their camera on it's harder for you. I mean this is the thing that you have those who are your friends who are close to you have learned

01:24:06

How to how to read you and you learn how to read them um, like we know like we go to a restaurant

01:24:12

I could tell If the restaurant's going to be a hard place for you to sit in right because we've just we've been in those scenarios being able to see that and I think

01:24:21

Let me ask you about that because we I don't like you know, it's not about me and all those things but You know, this has come up.

01:24:28

Okay, so you've seen me in different situations, right? And so tell people what

01:24:34

I have to go through and what it's like and and to be honest everybody Uh andrew we we tease each other we insult each other, but andrew's very good about being very accommodating

01:24:44

Uh, you know, he understands and that's what I appreciate that. But at any rate you see me in some situations, right?

01:24:49

Where i've had problems, right? Yeah, I mean You know you have you and I have both have issues clearly, but they're a little different But we both have one thing that we do have in common when we go to restaurants.

01:25:00

Uh you you We go to a restaurant, especially if it's playing a lot of music Um, if there's a lot of people talking

01:25:08

At a table you you have trouble filtering at all. I can't process at all. I have to leave. Yeah. Yeah where like for me

01:25:17

You know, I hear conversations that are going on and and this is the thing people don't I think always recognize

01:25:23

But when you're like with nathan or me we go out to a restaurant And we've we've had this where we have a lot of people at a table

01:25:29

I remember sitting we had maybe 8 12 people at a table And nathan and I were both there.

01:25:36

You were at the other end of the table from me But I was able to quickly just look at nathan We both looked at each other and and basically there were like four or five different conversations going

01:25:45

And we can see that you were someone was trying to talk to you when you were shutting down and Nathan, I just kind of quieted the the conversations.

01:25:53

I think charlie was there he also just quieted down and you know, because we we

01:25:59

Those of us who know you and have been with you a lot. We we understand um And you do focus on Facial expressions.

01:26:09

That's really I think the main way for you how you can read people because there's times where You know

01:26:18

If you can't see their face You have a harder time interpreting what they're trying to say

01:26:25

And yeah, I do it's a it's a it becomes harder i'm i'm better at tones now, too But but yeah, you know, we've been in places where it's just too much.

01:26:32

I carry my earplugs even nathan will carry earplugs Uh for me because sometimes i'll forget them and i'll get overloaded and you see me ever see me do this, right?

01:26:42

Where i'm sitting there close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears because i'm getting overloaded In fact, that's the phrase i'll say with everybody is um, i'm getting overloaded and everybody understands

01:26:53

And they just know that it's nobody's fault. It's nothing. It's just I can't process at all. I have to uh,

01:27:00

Things have to change or I have to leave and um, that's it and uh, so I usually i'll just extricate myself and I don't want to I don't want to ruin anybody else's time and stuff.

01:27:10

That's not what i'm there for Yeah for folks who don't overloaded my car once I did Yeah, what happened there?

01:27:17

I remember that one Uh, you were we were I picked you up at the at the airport and we were just leaving and I decided to try to Have google maps on at the same time try to have some music on While you were in the passenger side and we got heavy on traffic and you just kind of said uh too much and so I had to shut down everything so Yeah, sorry about that.

01:27:42

I feel bad about stuff like that, but everybody else can handle it I I can't handle it and that's just what it is. But anyway, someone asked about the autism stuff and what it is and those are some of the stuff

01:27:53

Really try hard matt to not have anybody feel uncomfortable with the issues you have you

01:28:01

I mean you always end up feeling bad about it when things happen and None of us that at least

01:28:07

I know you well never I mean we're we try to accommodate we know who we know you we know The issues and so it's it's never an issue for us.

01:28:14

But you know it would be a thing for folks who don't know who Meet you for the first time they get all excited to meet you

01:28:21

And they don't even know and i've seen that that's actually the hardest thing for you I think is when you meet someone for the first time and you're you don't know them.

01:28:28

They don't know you and they're so excited And yet you start getting overloaded and it becomes like too much and that's that's the thing um, you know another thing, you know, um, you're not a big hugger because of that You you know touch and things like that with people with with autism and and all's

01:28:49

Can be an issue um And and so you just have more of a sensitivity

01:28:55

Yeah, that reminds me. There's a story. I don't tell it very often. But when I was in the philippines Um philippines, you're going to notice this when you go to the philippines.

01:29:03

It's just noisy period their idea of quiet is uh, 60 decibels um

01:29:10

It's seriously, it's just incredible and so we're in a van and i'm sitting behind the driver and he's honking the horn

01:29:16

And he didn't speak english. We had an interpreter there who was working with us. He's a great guy a pastor and uh

01:29:22

And so he's honking the horn because that's what you did He just honked the horn and he had his radio on And then the guy in the front seats having a conversation with the guy behind me and two guys behind left were having conversations

01:29:32

And I also have 80 decibel ringing in my ears and it was road noise and so there was a sound that was coming up and I started

01:29:40

I I actually literally at one point had my fingers in my ears and I was rocking back and forth I did not want to ruin the trip for anybody, you know, we're going to go to a um

01:29:50

Another island and we're going to go to a ferry and I I was really struck okay, i'm going to try the best

01:29:55

I can the best I can the best I can and um, uh, I did this for about 20 minutes

01:30:03

Which is the most i've ever had to endure ever in a situation like that And I can still remember the van very very, uh clearly and uh,

01:30:12

I broke And um couldn't help it and um I said gotta get out of the van gotta get out of the van.

01:30:19

I I was going into shock and so, uh They they like I gotta get out and I was panicking and uh, he pulled over really fast

01:30:28

And I got out and I started running back to the hotel like 10 miles Because I was gonna

01:30:34

I just you know wasn't thinking clearly and ran about 200 feet and then you know There was this wall.

01:30:40

I remember this wall. I sat down on the wall. I started crying. I mean heaving crying like a baby and uh this guy comes out of the van and They already knew

01:30:51

I had a couple sound issues because something had happened three days earlier three or four days earlier I was at a mall and it was just too much.

01:30:57

They're so incredibly noisy and I had to extricate myself So anyway, uh, he comes out and uh, he puts his hand on my uh shoulder and uh

01:31:07

And he saw that I was sweating and I was cold And he said to me matt you're in shock and I it took me 10 or 15 minutes to come out of it enough

01:31:16

To be able to function So I I went into shock from too much sound and uh

01:31:24

Then no one in the van would talk Come on guys say something. I felt so bad But that's what that's a true story

01:31:32

It's uh, how about that? That's what it is You know, it's it's something that uh, yeah, look every every

01:31:39

We all have differences. Um, and we all struggle actually i'll give a plug uh for a conference we're going to be having here in new jersey justin peters frank mollis

01:31:50

Colleen sharp from theology gals all going to be speaking. Yeah. Yeah Colleen's going to do a ladies breakout um

01:31:58

And what you end up with is we're dealing with the issue of Sanctification through suffering it's going to be in freehold, new jersey

01:32:06

Uh, the dates for that are march 15th 16th, and you could go Should be a way to find it.

01:32:12

I think it's striving for eternity. Let's see if we go to striving for eternity slash conference on or conference dash on Dash suffering so conference on suffering

01:32:25

And we're it's called the sanctification through suffering conference um And so we're going to be dealing with issues because you know the reality matt

01:32:34

You're you're a little bit more open With the struggles that you have than most people are but a lot of people when they struggle they struggle alone they are ashamed of of the fact that they're struggling they're ashamed of the fact that they're um

01:32:52

Feeling like they're different than other people and and yet the reality is is that Every one of us is going to struggle in different ways

01:33:03

And Your your struggle is going to be different than mine and you know We you and I can be in the same exact situation, but I can't understand how what it's like for you to go through that You can't understand what it's like for me to go through it because we we really do suffer alone

01:33:19

Because we're different people Oh, yeah It gives you more compassion and sympathy for people when people say they have little issues.

01:33:27

I just smile and go no sweat, man I'm with you Gotcha, no sweat. No judgment on anything.

01:33:33

Yeah, I got you Welcome to the world Yeah Oh, yeah, you can say the same thing

01:33:44

I've had people approach me at church Particular one girl she started talking to me and the other one came in.

01:33:50

I think they Crowded me. I felt my guards go up automatically. There was nothing

01:33:56

I could do about it, and I just couldn't talk to her Right And so what you have to do in a situation like that is is rehearse it in your mind a better way to react

01:34:05

And it takes a long time to rehearse but you do that And then you have to teach yourself how to focus on something else and deal with it

01:34:12

And so one of the things you can do is at least what i'll do. I don't look people in the eyes I look at their mouths and read their lips a practice doing that and Then what i'll do is is depending on the situation.

01:34:23

It might take half a step backwards And that's i'm showing them that their conversation is good.

01:34:29

That's okay And then if they want me to talk any further, they'll look at me And then um, you know, it's a it's a struggle for uh for aspies.

01:34:39

It really is It took me a long time when she was walking away. I finally realized

01:34:44

I did something wrong Yeah, well, you know and you know

01:34:49

It also is good is to have friends who know you and love you and they're so to speak regular normals

01:34:54

And you just say hey when I do something that's not quite right. Just tell me That's right friends like that and and my wife and I would do that, you know be coming home from someplace and she'd give me pointers and Well, when you when you kick the guy in the nuts for no reason that was not a good thing.

01:35:08

It wasn't you know and she would uh She'd point out some things That was hilarious

01:35:16

There was a time that almost happened for real there was a time at the the mormon temple, uh

01:35:22

So hey, let's uh, oh man. Yeah i'm gonna add in uh our friend here, uh deacon joseph

01:35:32

He is the I think it was ether nor eastern orthodox. I think it was but you can unmute yourself

01:35:39

If you have any questions for matt Yeah, no, actually I was kind of invited on Um, and I was planning on calling anyway, um, but for some reason we scheduled our show a half hour later

01:35:49

So you're you're invited on by who? I guess well The last two weeks have been interesting

01:35:55

A lot of people have told me how much I suck and one of them was telling me this, uh yesterday He he came on today and said well matt's talking about the dodashe the dodake and saint paulie carp

01:36:06

And he's attacking the orthodox in general. I said look I was going to come on anyway, but I don't know okay, fine, whatever so But um, yeah, so i'm here a little later than I wanted to be.

01:36:15

I actually had my own purpose in calling back um, so that's uh, you know, but that was because I didn't there were some things that I didn't uh do too well, but um

01:36:25

Not too well. I just didn't answer and I feel I should have Well, do you have a question for me?

01:36:31

Well, i'm curious as to what the orthodox discussion was earlier. Maybe I can help We didn't have one today

01:36:37

Yeah, we didn't have one So there was no discussion of the dodashe or paulie carp this morning. Oh, we were someone said

01:36:45

Casual comment someone said the dodashe Demonstrates catholicism or something like that. So I got

01:36:53

It definitely demonstrates apostolic tradition, but there's I mean there where's the pope there's no pope in it or anything like that There's no pope.

01:37:00

There's no eucharist. There's no mary. There's you know, there's technically a eucharist No, no, no.

01:37:06

I'm, sorry. I mean the way The catholic would would say it.

01:37:11

Oh, yeah That's that well that was a yeah. No, I would agree with that. I mean it does it mentions, you know

01:37:17

The proper form of a baptism things like that. There's some good stuff Yeah, there is it's it's really a one of my favorite line of this and this is one of the in my opinion

01:37:28

Now andrew you're you're of a jewish background, correct? Yes Okay, one of the coolest things

01:37:34

I find in the didache, um, well, I always pronounce the didache But I guess didache would be proper english, uh more properly english

01:37:41

Um, but it's uh, the didache where it says eight one and it says And let not your fasting speed with the hypocrites for they fast on the second to fifth day of the week

01:37:48

But keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation the sixth day So now obviously when they're saying the hypocrites are referring to um, they're referring to the jews who did not believe because they're jews who do

01:37:59

And so they're kind of switching the days of the fast to wednesday and friday from monday and thursday

01:38:05

Um, so I thought that that's to me. That's one of the most interesting things in it because of the fact that you can see

01:38:12

There's like they kind of like are like well We have to keep that we're keeping the fast, but we're not going to keep with you

01:38:17

We're going to do it on wednesday, obviously in in recognition of the you know, the day of the betrayal and the day of the crucifixion

01:38:24

Um as to the monday thursday, I don't know why that is you probably do but I don't And where was that in did did okay that's in uh, the chapter eight, you know posted in here

01:38:37

Yeah On the side The second and fifth day of the week

01:38:48

Okay and so that was like the jewish practice and I looked it up and apparently it's in some jewish encyclopedia like during certain fast periods and They do that sort of thing and I never knew that but apparently

01:38:59

That I know that wednesday and friday we do that But I never knew that it was a switch over from like you could see the direct change.

01:39:06

It's kind of interesting but um, yeah Yeah now anything but it is interesting.

01:39:13

No, well, i'm not trying to prove anything, you know, I don't know where you are It's just yeah, it's just there's no what do you do with it?

01:39:19

There's nothing really to do with it, but it is interesting well fast on those days So matt for we didn't deal with this earlier but for folks who don't know what did okay is why don't you explain what the did okay is and why we

01:39:31

We do see it as valuable when we discuss christianity Yeah, I could tell my wife here for a second.

01:39:39

I can keep talking to you. Well, i'm just do one thing like 30 seconds But yeah So so what's what's the what's the purpose or the value?

01:39:47

Let me uh, I can tell you a little about it The did okay is a first century document often referred to as the teachings of the holy apostles

01:39:55

And so it was kind of like um a collection of saying it was kind of a collection of oral traditions That were occurring at the time very interesting ones

01:40:03

Um that helped kind of establish things that were going on in the early church For example, um, we can see that by the second century

01:40:11

Um, they were following uh, they were following the psalmist dictates his praise seven times a day But here in the dedicate you can see they're still following the jewish tradition of doing it three times

01:40:20

So, you know there's you can start beginning to see The kind of like separation of the christian church from the jewish temple

01:40:29

Um, and so that's really what it kind of records down. It's these early practices Yeah, some of them are very so we're

01:40:37

A helpful thing for folks when we look at we we get Basically kind of the instructions that they would have had in the early church

01:40:45

It's not it's not part of the canon. It's not part of the bible But it's it's helpful.

01:40:50

It's it's it's no different than I would say um for the jewish people

01:40:56

The writings of the maccabees it's it's history, but it's not the bible Well, this is one of the things that um,

01:41:02

I kind of was uh, I kind of had a i've been on this protestant orthodox and catholic debate forum

01:41:08

And one of the things that I kind of had to explain because I realized that it was not totally clear In the past and we talked about the maccabees andrew and one thing that I should make clear is that These the early writings that were approved by the church and the and the decade would have been one of them

01:41:24

Um helped to relay tradition Even if they're not considered canonically part of the word of god

01:41:30

And so they're still we still value them And so like in other words a person who doesn't value the books of the maccabees

01:41:37

Because i'm not even gonna lie. There are there were orthodox I mean look at saint jerome who rejected the greek canon initially and then eventually in old age came around to it

01:41:46

But the point is he still respected the other books He just didn't know if they should be included in the uh in the text of the church

01:41:54

Well, yeah, I mean there's there's plenty of books and things that we could see as valuable I think matt and I would agree when it comes, you know, we could agree that you know

01:42:03

We have books of the bible. We have sections in a lot of bibles that are put in like archaeological information maps

01:42:10

That that's helpful enough for mormonism. They they wouldn't have a map right matt They don't have maps in the book of mormon, do they they actually

01:42:18

I think they made up a map They made up some maps in some of them. Well, they have uh drawings of ancient papyri

01:42:29

And they're hieroglyphics that look really authentic Yeah reformed hieroglyphics and uh, yeah, that's right as a debacle.

01:42:37

But anyway, yep Anyway, um, so yeah, no, I would agree that it does not prove catholicism.

01:42:44

There's nothing in there that proves catholicism I would say that it you know, it demonstrates, you know proper orthodox christian practice

01:42:50

But you know, I mean this for you certainly wouldn't see praying to mary because for all we know she was alive when it was written

01:42:57

So, you know it that wouldn't make sense but um in any case one of the things is uh

01:43:04

What was it? So that was really the main purpose of me coming on Do you have any you have any because we have about 15 minutes.

01:43:10

So you got you have a question or topic of discussion? Yeah, actually I do I do Um, and this is from this actually came from I was listening to the last part of the debate with the roman catholic, uh last week

01:43:22

And I I had a question for matt and then he brought something up and maybe you guys can help me with this covenant sign

01:43:30

What is that? When you get married, you make a vow with your wife. You make a promise

01:43:35

The covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties. It's a verbal verbal written, uh statement of commitment and usually a covenant has uh stipulations with rewards and punishments

01:43:48

And so, uh, if you and I were to make a covenant that i'm going to mow your lawn, uh for 10 bucks, uh,

01:43:54

I understand that but i'm trying the sign thing the covenant sign because you said that and I was like What is the covenant sign?

01:44:01

So I try to type it and I only found a couple of mormon sources on it So I know that's not it um, so So a covenant sign is a representation of that covenant.

01:44:11

So my my wedding ring here is a covenant sign. It's a sign Public manifestation of the covenant that I made with my wife and she has a ring

01:44:19

And so what we're doing is displaying our covenant commitment to one another that way So the rainbow is a covenant commitment of god

01:44:26

Uh circumcision is a covenant sign as well and things like that and baptism.

01:44:32

I believe is a covenant uh sign is it is not equated 100 but it's related to um,

01:44:39

Circumcision in colossians 2 12 and 13. So you would say that then the water and baptism

01:44:45

Is kind of a visible sign would you say that of what is really happening? Yeah, um

01:44:52

Apparently god the pattern of god is to always have a sign with a covenant And so that's why i'm presbyterian

01:44:59

Because I believe that uh a covenant is can be made between a parent and god regarding their their children

01:45:07

And they can dedicate their children to the lord But that's a covenant And to be biblically consistent you need a sign what would be the sign it seems to be

01:45:17

That the early church practiced infant baptism and there's some debates on it but it seems to be that that was kind of normative and um and so I hold to that but not because of the tradition and not because of that but because of I see this being a biblical thing because the abrahamic covenant was commanded to have children in it and the abrahamic covenant, uh

01:45:36

Genesis 12 3 in you all the nations shall be blessed. It's quoted by paul in galatians 3 8 and he calls he says it's the gospel

01:45:44

So therefore the abrahamic covenant still uh for today and children were commanded to be in that abrahamic covenant

01:45:50

So therefore the children need to be in the covenant today And because otherwise you have to find something in the new testament that excludes them from the same abrahamic covenant

01:45:58

And uh, if that's the case then what's the sign and it seems to be I don't have all the bugs worked out yet But it seems to be that baptism is a replacement of the covenant sign of circumcision because of the blood shed in the old testament fulfilled in the new

01:46:13

And uh in christ and so therefore the covenant sign has changed Now to be honest,

01:46:19

I think there's a little bit of inconsistency with some of my views on that Why would it be a covenant sign change because I don't see that normally in scripture

01:46:26

And uh exactly what is the baptism representing and I haven't worked that out yet either and um

01:46:32

I have a question that leads me to another question. Andrew. I don't know how you feel about covenant signs Are you on board with this?

01:46:38

No, I would have a different view than that. Okay, the the reason I asked this is because I was fascinated by it

01:46:45

And i'll tell you why I was fascinated by it Um, and i'm not gonna here's no I don't do gotcha moments or anything like that But it got me thinking about uh, saint augustine because he refers to an outward invisible sign of an inward and invisible grace as a sacrament

01:47:01

Now based on what i'm hearing it sounds like this covenant sign is effectively a mystery or sacrament

01:47:09

And since baptism and marriage were both listed would I consider would I be correct in this understanding?

01:47:18

I'm not sure I followed you In other words if there is an inward grace but an outward sign

01:47:25

Saint augustine describes that as a sacrament. That would be basically the orthodox teaching what a sacrament is

01:47:30

Different terminology, but it sounds like it's basically the same thing Well, the problem is with the term inward grace in catholicism.

01:47:38

Grace is like a substance. It's infused and they say an inward grace I'm just talking about I don't mean infused grace or I mean grace of god real grace

01:47:48

So the undeserved kindness of god is certainly manifested all over the place and But a covenant sign isn't the manifestation of the of that Per se a covenant sign is a manifestation of a promise

01:48:03

Okay Well, that's that's what the word sacrament means. It means oath and it would be referred to between god and man

01:48:09

Well, that's fine. Um, I think it's a perfectly in that sense. Yeah So would you consider the like the eucharist a covenant sign?

01:48:18

Yes Okay. All right. Well, so okay. So so far we've got baptism the eucharist and marriage which is like I don't know

01:48:25

I don't I don't consider marriage to be a Sacrament in that sense What a covenant sign

01:48:32

Well, there's all kinds of covenant signs where I see a rainbow, you know, it doesn't it's not a sacrament It's a coveted sign.

01:48:37

Well, okay. Well, that's okay. That was uh, that was my main question um only because of the fact that one of the things that I was not very complete with you guys is on was uh, the question of how does one

01:48:51

Become a christian live a christian life and I guess die a christian I got up to baptism and then we got sidetracked

01:48:57

Um, we've just mentioned the eucharist we mentioned marriage chrismation um, which is part of the baptism uh, and then you know holy orders and uh

01:49:07

You have I don't know if you guys have you have like healing of the sick like the anointing of the sick and stuff like that Yeah, we anoint people.

01:49:13

Okay, that's good. So that that's covered. Um, yeah Basically so yeah, it comes it comes back down to the uh, the question of ordination and hierarchical structure

01:49:25

Just so you know within reform theology there are discussions of what's called the two sacraments baptism in the lord's supper

01:49:31

And there's discussions on the depth and the means and the extent to which participation in those affects the person and So I would say yeah, there's an effect.

01:49:44

Uh, I don't hold to the idea of of for example of um, The lord's supper as being just a symbolic sign

01:49:52

And I certainly don't hold to the roman catholic position of it's an infusion of grace and things like that.

01:49:58

I reject that so my and and lutheranism Has a view if I remember correctly where there's it's actually a means of grace where grace occurs to you because of that sign

01:50:09

And that's where I get a little bit uh cautious because I don't want to Have a formula for grace if I do this then

01:50:19

I get grace there's no longer grace It's my formula. And so I have a problem with some of the aspects of it.

01:50:25

It's you know So I haven't worked all the details. Like I said, i'm busy doing everything else Well, yeah, no, definitely.

01:50:32

It's it's something i'd love to really, you know discuss more, you know in depth Uh, I did not get a chance to do that.

01:50:38

That's my fault Um, I had I had the time but I was uh, you know, I kind of got backtracked and all over the place um, but what else i'm trying to think no, that was my main question and uh,

01:50:50

I don't know if uh, If there's any oddities about orthodoxy that you guys have encountered lately or you know bothersome things i'd love to address them um myself if uh

01:51:02

Well, the only thing i'm concerned about with any group is the methodology or how you become justified before the infinitely holy god uh

01:51:12

Come again, I didn't hear what the other guy said Soteriology Right soteriology.

01:51:18

How is a person made legally righteous before god according to that law with you know

01:51:24

Which is concomitant with the forgiveness of sins That's always the issue Okay Of any group

01:51:30

I ask Or the ordo salutis No, that's different The ordo salutis

01:51:39

Has to do with the issue of the decrees of god bringing people into salvation Does he know who's going to pick him then he picks them and he ordains them because of that these kind of questions and um

01:51:51

Did he call people before? Uh the foundation of the world after the foundation of the world

01:51:56

He'd look into the future to see who's going to pick him in his decrees Predestination sort of stuff.

01:52:02

It's it's like that predestination elect. Did he elect before he predestined predestined before he elected like I mean, those are the kinds of questions that are asked and it was the issue of the ordo salutis

01:52:12

Interesting never heard of this ordo salutis, but i'll do more research on it Yeah, you can go to a quorum and you can read up on it and uh, so the calvinist, uh ordo salutis generally speaking is election first predestination then calling then

01:52:27

Regeneration then faith then repentance then justification and sanctification perseverance and glorification

01:52:33

The arminian position is calling the preacher preaching the gospel prevenient grace faith repentance regeneration justification perseverance glorification

01:52:43

The catholic is actual grace faith contrition regeneration at baptism penance glorification

01:52:49

These are the kind of of issues and things i've noticed that in in reading some of the stuff that Um the back and forth and learning a little bit about the history of protestantism is how much?

01:53:00

Uh, there's this these discussions on Minutiae and I don't understand it, uh to some degree like for example, like um, you mentioned the eucharist

01:53:11

And for example luther's position was radically different from calvin and they both went to different Uh papal theological schools before they came to the reformation that they kind of brought their baggage with them on that And it's all kind of goes back to this kind of mechanical scholasticism

01:53:28

That I don't fully get like for me when I think of the eucharist, I know it's really the body and blood of christ

01:53:35

Uh, you know, I I don't I don't what does that mean? That that's really the body and blood of christ.

01:53:42

Um Well, then if it is that if it actually is yes That actually is his blood and actually is his body and it's got to have uh, dna molecules in there

01:53:52

Well, that's okay. Now. It's still the species of bread and wine Right But you said it's actually the body and blood if it's this is like you see this isn't

01:54:03

Actually a glass It is what it is. It's a glass. It's it's not my cell phone

01:54:08

So if I say it's actually a glass then it has to have the nature of glass So if the bread it's a bread and the wine are actually the body and blood of christ

01:54:18

Well, then there has to be human elements in it dna, you know blood

01:54:24

There is there is Well, no, there is an element of life in both bread and wine

01:54:32

An element of life and bread and wine. Yeah. Yeah, but see that's that's incredibly vague

01:54:38

No, it's yeast. It's not vague at all No, no, no an element of life

01:54:43

That phrase is incredibly vague an element of life. The point is that the food itself is living in both cases

01:54:51

Okay So the point so But it's not it's not christ beforehand

01:54:58

So when we look at wine we could take a microscope and I could see molecules, uh cells, uh grape cells or Fruit of the vine cells a bread

01:55:07

I could see yeast cells and things like that. I assume Uh, but we look at the at the eucharist the bread.

01:55:14

Do you see blood cells or in the wine? Do you see blood cells human blood cells? You would want it to look

01:55:21

I mean in some cases sure, but that's not all the time No, the eucharist. Come on the it's a blood of christ if it's the blood of christ we have christ dna and in the

01:55:30

Right. Why he didn't say that he didn't say it's going to physically become Just my physical body like it's it didn't like when he gave it to the apostles.

01:55:40

It didn't matter like transform into like human flesh Well, wait a minute. You said it was his body.

01:55:46

It is his body. It's you said it's his actual body Now you're saying it's not his actual body.

01:55:51

No, i'm saying it's not his human body It's his bread body. So then how is it if it's not his human body?

01:55:57

Then what body is it the venusian the martian body? No the bread body So jesus is walking around as a loaf of of wonder bread.

01:56:06

I don't think he walks around as a bread Well, then how could it be? How could his bread be his body?

01:56:15

It's a mystery. It's what he declared That and it's funny because that same shock is precisely

01:56:21

What happened in john 6 54 and they said how can how can this man give us his body to eat?

01:56:27

And he uses the term and i'm sure you know this in the screen. He uses the term again

01:56:32

I say to you if you do not munch upon my flesh And drink my blood you will have no life in you

01:56:40

How does that work? Now think about that. Let's just assume You're right, let's say it's not really the body and blood of christ.

01:56:47

Let's just do that Okay If you are eating it Whether you call it a symbol or not

01:56:55

You have life in you, but if you reject it you don't Clearly, this is not normal bread or wine

01:57:03

Or would you agree? So are you saying that if I reject it as the actual body and the actual blood of christ that it can't be saved now?

01:57:09

Well, i'm saying if you reject eating it It says if you do not partake you will have no life in you. It doesn't say, you know I'm, my point i'm trying to make is that you have to partake of the eucharist

01:57:19

That's part of the reason why you listed as a covenant sign. I presume So yeah, it's a covenant sign because he says so Uh, but john 663

01:57:26

Jesus says in the context of all that The spirit who gives life the flesh profits. Nothing the words that i've spoken to you are spirit

01:57:34

And are alive he's talking in a spiritual sense So you can't are you saying that the bread isn't spiritual?

01:57:41

I'm saying the uh that when he's holding the bread in his hand Uh, he had not yet been crucified.

01:57:48

So let me ask you was that bread the sacrificed body of christ? The when you say the it's the it's all the body of christ when he says it

01:57:58

Okay, was it the sacrificed body of christ when he gave it to them? Um, I guess well, yeah, if you're outside time

01:58:06

He's got outside of time. Okay, so Now he's outside of time and it was his actual body and blood so the problem i'm having with this kind of dialogue

01:58:14

Sure, I have it with catholics every now and then is they introduce science fiction And then they say this is how we're going to make it fit.

01:58:21

We're going to introduce sci -fi Science fiction outside of time. Uh, we don't know what that means. We can't relate to it.

01:58:27

It's a catchphrase of of meaningless symbols, but it's part of the reason why you have these debates with roman catholics to begin with is because God says it's my body and my blood

01:58:38

And we doubt that why well, wait a minute, but what does he mean by it's his body and his blood Because it's literally his body and his blood that he's violating levitical law by having them eat blood which leviticus 17 11 forbids

01:58:53

Yeah, except it's not the blood of an animal. It's the blood of god It says no any flesh the blood of any flesh

01:59:02

That's what it says and we know the jews use that to not be cannibalistic and that's exactly that's exactly my point matt

01:59:09

That's why when he re -emphasized it the largest number of followers that he had left

01:59:14

Because it was hard saying Because they would not have considered it to be true that he would be wanting them

01:59:21

To violate old testament law and he let them leave And he did let them leave because they didn't understand the true meaning of what he was saying

01:59:31

Or because he really meant what he said Or okay If he really meant what he said is as you like to say that phrase

01:59:38

He really meant what he said then the bread is it actually his body as you said it was right?

01:59:43

What does that mean? It's actually his body. It is his body in a form we can partake of That's not that's not it.

01:59:50

That's that's not what the actual it is is saying the actual what is the actuality? You're saying it's a form we can take that's that's not answering the question.

01:59:58

Oh, it's a form of his body It's his body. Okay. What is the actuality? This is my hand right now. This is actually my hand.

02:00:05

It's actually mine It's actually part of me. It has body. It has flesh. It has nerves.

02:00:11

It has blood Muscles all that kind of stuff now If it's this is actually part of my body now, did jesus say the bread was part of his body?

02:00:21

No He said it was his body. Is it the whole of his body? Is he saying the essence of his body is in the bread?

02:00:29

But yet he's right there and if it's If he's right there and he had not been crucified and had not been glorified and he says this is my my body

02:00:40

It can't be his literal body when you say actual you're not saying literal you mean something different and without clarifying what you mean

02:00:48

Your argument is useless Well, it's not really an argument. I'm just simply pointing out that that's the the teaching is that it is his body it is

02:00:57

In what's meant by that in the species of bread and wine it is there's no debate about that I'm, not going to even say like I see wait a minute

02:01:05

Jesus says he's a door. Was he actually a door? Um in some in a sense he was but not in a literal door

02:01:12

So was the body the bread literally his body? Well, he emphasized it. So i'd say that that's what he meant

02:01:18

Was it literally his body? He says it is it is he's the creator of the universe. So you're saying it's literally his body

02:01:25

So if we'd have taken that bread then we could have looked at it and seen human cells I didn't say that You said it's literally his body.

02:01:32

What else does it mean to be literally his body? It's literally his body because he says it's his body not because he said i'm gonna add some dna to it

02:01:40

So no, no, no if if something is literally what it is You can analyze it and see it has a properties of what it is

02:01:46

That's how you know, it literally is that but you're saying it's literally the body of christ, but it's not

02:01:51

Because we're literally saying it's actually his body But if we look at it, none of the attributes are there of of being his actual body

02:01:58

Well, I mean if you want to go into the uncomfortable history of the thing I mean there have been points in church history, which we've even preserved them where after you know

02:02:08

Somebody doubted whether it was his body and blood the figure on the altar the bread and wine literally changed into flesh and blood

02:02:15

Which obviously made them inedible And they've you know been preserved in some I don't go with superstition

02:02:21

Or magic tricks. Well, it's not a magic trick It's a how do you if you if a priest is saying something on an altar unless he's a great

02:02:29

Some great magician you usually can't make human flesh and blood out of the thing. So let me get this straight.

02:02:35

Let me reword it Okay, so you mean an unregenerate? uh so -called priest who's serving satan on Without even knowing it through his false teachings and his false doctrines goes through a ritual

02:02:47

And it's changing and that means that it's true. I don't think it's I don't even think it's that complex

02:02:53

I mean, I think it's very clear. That's what happened. I think this is it's an interesting thing

02:02:58

I'll tell you another interesting story. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait stories. I want to go like this this bread

02:03:03

Is it actually his what does it mean to actually be what does it mean? It means that it is god

02:03:11

Edible to give grace to you God is

02:03:17

Now edible. Yes Did no catholics say this to you?

02:03:23

Okay, so, um, so we can eat god. Okay. Yes. That's exactly my point

02:03:29

When does the element stop being god in our digestive track? Is there a point that they've gone that far?

02:03:35

um No, not really I mean because the logical question i'm gonna ask

02:03:42

I know what you're gonna ask I know I don't want to because I don't want to I don't want to be respectful But you see the problem you're you're you're gonna ask are you gonna put can you poop god?

02:03:53

Yeah, and i'm trying to be respectful of my lord and not Well, here's what here's what

02:03:58

I would say That if a person gets to the point of eating only the eucharist if they're at that holiness

02:04:03

They're usually not pooping much at all But that's beside the point the point. Yeah, but the thing is now you have a digestive track undoing the very nature of god

02:04:12

Well, it's not undoing the nature of god. It's digesting the particles the species of bread and the spirit goes to your spirit

02:04:19

So wait a minute The spirit is now increased into our spirit. This is I never thought about this

02:04:24

So then we got two issues the physical part of god. We're eating gods. We're eating him

02:04:30

So his godness becomes infused into our bodies Yeast by the way do become part of the digestive tract

02:04:38

I don't know. Yeah, but that's that's inhabiting not part of it's inhabiting

02:04:45

Overgo with the yeast because my but the point i'm trying to make is that which is spiritual remains and that which is not goes so the god part of the bread i'm gonna be very very careful here when

02:04:59

I talk like this because I Do not in any way want to disrespect my lord accidentally So i'd be very careful.

02:05:05

I really appreciate that Well, I take this very seriously, this is a very serious thing um and so What i'm trying to understand

02:05:15

Is that you're saying this bread is actually the body of christ and his divinity?

02:05:20

Or it just or is it divinity and humanity? I would say it's his divinity and it's a species of bread and without we can't forget the without it

02:05:28

There's no life within you part because I want to keep that okay, so I'm just talking about one thing at a time.

02:05:36

So the actual molecules Of the bread are not human molecules

02:05:43

Right. No, they're bread molecules They're definitely bread molecules. So how do you have human nature?

02:05:51

In a physical sense because that's what the body is How do you have the physical necessity of the human nature?

02:05:58

Not be in the bread In a physical sense yet. It's it's also the physical body.

02:06:04

Well when life is infused into a human when they're conceived The point is what their life is not part of their biology

02:06:14

And this is my point is that? The bread is alive. The body and blood are alive um as god but they are not

02:06:26

Changed to the point where they become Human in other words, it doesn't become the god man on the altar

02:06:32

It becomes part of the divine nature of christ joins the bread, but not the uh, not the human nature

02:06:38

Although that has in ugly Periods where people doubted weird things have happened, but in general that's not supposed to happen

02:06:46

What's supposed to happen is god is you know is ingested for it's taken for our salvation or our condemnation as saint

02:06:54

Paul points out because in some cases people were taking the eucharist unworthily and died Okay, I mean this is a serious deal yeah, it is and we should always be very careful about this topic, but um, so uh

02:07:08

If we had obtained back then super hypothetical Obtained a drop of christ's blood.

02:07:13

We could have looked at it under a microscope We would have seen hemoglobin and cell cellular activity and things like that because part of what it is

02:07:21

Yeah, he was And so how do you have the actual physical elements of the bread be the actual physical body of christ

02:07:29

Yet that bread does not have any characteristics Of the actual body of christ. Well, that's part of why it's called a mystery.

02:07:37

He declares it so and it's so I don't i'm not going to say i'm why I can't what am I supposed to say?

02:07:42

I can't your interpretation You're interpreting it as a declaration. That doesn't mean your interpretation is valid I'm just working on the logic of where this is leading to You're having a non -sequitur you're having something self -contradictory

02:07:54

You're having something be itself and not also not itself at the same time and that violates the law of identity

02:07:59

Well, this is kind of what kind of a follow -up to you know The difficulties we were having in the last discussion and the point i'm trying to make is that when you're dealing with I hate to Say use the term supernatural.

02:08:10

I prefer the term miraculous, but when you're dealing with a world Um, and this is something that you were even talking about with covenant signs that they're everywhere

02:08:20

Um when you're dealing with a world of divinity infusing through the church um through the body of christ

02:08:28

Uh the holy spirit throughout the earth. It's not gonna always make sense It's I don't

02:08:34

I don't have any problem with mysteries. I don't have a problem with mysteries We don't use the term sacraments.

02:08:39

We use the term mysteries, but that's a problem with mysteries or paradoxes I have a problem with logical contradictions.

02:08:45

Okay So what you're saying really stressing you out here It's not stressing me out.

02:08:51

I just see a problem and I can never adopt your position because I see it be logically impossible You're saying that the elements of the bread are the actual body of christ

02:09:00

Yet the actual body of christ would necessarily have Physical characteristics of a human body.

02:09:08

So if you say it's the actual Even in the glorified body It's the same body he died in it's just glorified he had open wounds in his side the whole bit um, he still had skins

02:09:18

I was dealing with the manifestation to the disciples. I mean, he didn't need to keep the wounds no, he

02:09:28

That's a potentially heretical statement on your part You may not be aware of the seriousness of the statement and I want to continue with this

02:09:35

But that's a serious thing that you just said. Okay. I hope I misunderstood you What's the

02:09:41

Are you saying okay, let me ask you this because I maybe it's been understood you are you saying jesus is not a man right now?

02:09:48

No, i'm not. Okay. Is he a man right now? He's god and man right now.

02:09:53

So he's a man. Yeah, very good. Very good And so he was raised from the dead the very same body.

02:09:58

He died in but was a glorified body, correct? And the reason he appeared to the people was to prove his resurrection

02:10:05

Well the reason he appeared to yeah, I would say that's that's one of the reasons Okay. Okay.

02:10:11

I just misunderstood you then. All right, no biggie Back to the bread and wine You say that the bread is the actual body

02:10:19

And yet the actual body would necessarily have to have Cells dna and that's that's what it is to be the actual body

02:10:30

Okay, and yet you say the bread which is the actual body does not contain those characteristics

02:10:36

Of an actual body it contains the spiritual characteristics It is really in that sense.

02:10:42

It is really a body is that it is a host for christ, but it is not And that's where we get the term host by the way

02:10:49

What are the spiritual characteristics of um? Of jesus, uh

02:10:57

That's to be flippant hair, uh skin cells, uh hand whatever, you know physical body

02:11:02

Okay physical body, what are the spiritual characteristics of a physical body But those are the human parts.

02:11:09

They're the parts that are not spiritual the carnal parts Well, the bread relates to the physical body, right?

02:11:15

No It does you just said it does it said it's the actual body that relates its physical body

02:11:20

I think we're I think part of our confusion here is that we keep on going back from actual and physical I do believe that the body and blood of christ are actually the body and blood of christ

02:11:29

I do not believe they are a human body on the altar Yeah, yeah, I know what you're doing. I mean,

02:11:35

I don't mean that in a in a I gotta stretch my back here I I know what you're doing. You're trying to explain and um, i'm going back and forth this

02:11:42

It's like shades thing to explain. It's it's a mystery. I'm not even gonna lie to you. I'm not gonna say like oh well

02:11:49

I'm, not a scholastic. I would love to define it in easy parts the way that the papers do so on and so forth

02:11:55

I we don't do that Yeah, um, this is part of Go ahead.

02:12:01

No, I was gonna say you're just you you um It's not a paradox. Uh, it's not a mystery.

02:12:08

It's a logical impossibility and um, You guys haven't thought this thing through apparently, uh, or you have enough and you you stop reasoning you stop thinking say it's just a mystery

02:12:19

Well, there is a point where we do do that Yeah, I understand that that's that's part of I think our faith.

02:12:25

It's you know, I mean I hate to say it but Our faith is filled with paradoxes

02:12:31

For example that you know Take for example christ's resurrection It didn't make sense to a lot of people

02:12:42

Because people don't usually come back from the dead Right. I I got said that but we're but the bread you're saying the bread is the actual body.

02:12:51

That's what he No, no, no, you know, he said that he said also said i'm the door. He said

02:12:56

I am the way He said I am the light he said lots of things that we have to understand You know aren't always necessarily exactly literal one for one and and uh

02:13:07

When you say he you know, this is my body when he's saying this is my body Does he mean it's actually his physical body?

02:13:14

Well, you mean his human body? Yeah No So then if it's not his actual human body, how can it be his body because he declares it to be his body?

02:13:24

No, how can it be actually his body? If it's not really his body

02:13:32

You see the problem. How can it be his body if it's not his body? You can't have both those statements be true

02:13:39

Let me see if I can make it a little more clear in terms of uh, the nature of christ He has a human and divine nature, right?

02:13:45

Hypothetic union. Yep. Okay, great. The bread has A physical nature.

02:13:53

It does not have a spiritual nature because it's bread unless you count the yeast which are alive, correct?

02:13:59

Yeah Okay The bread has the divine nature It does not have the human nature

02:14:06

That's hard But it is that's what we believe that it's not his actual body

02:14:12

We would say it's his actual body. No When jesus died on the cross his spirit was separated from his physical body the human aspect of his divine nature just So when

02:14:24

I'm a human and when you're a human, okay, and we have spirits or spiritual separate from our body We know that's possible.

02:14:29

So that's four. It's going to be 12th too. We know it's possible So the essence of what

02:14:35

I am as a human being is not limited to my physical sense The spiritual aspect of what

02:14:40

I am can continue without my physical body So humanness your humanness and my humanness is detected by the attributes of humanity

02:14:49

Not just whether we have hands and legs because amputees are still human. So humanity has a certain spiritual quality to it

02:14:58

That's separate from the physical and that spiritual quality can do more things in terms of movement.

02:15:04

I would assume Correct, maybe maybe but that's a human now.

02:15:09

What if you stop but here's a problem You see the human nature by definition is only one place at a time even

02:15:17

When the spirit is separated paul says I think it was he referring to himself, but whatever

02:15:22

I know a man 14 years ago whether in the body or out of the body do not know such a man was caught up In the third heaven. He's talking about locality of the individual in one place

02:15:30

He's defining the spiritual essence apart from the physical body and he's declaring that it's localized in one area the spiritual act of the human essence apart from the physical body

02:15:40

What you're trying to tell me then is the physical aspect the human aspect not the physical But the human aspect of christ is in that bread.

02:15:49

No Then it can't be what you say period Because if it's the actual physical body, you can't have it actually be the physical body because by logical necessity

02:16:00

The physical body has to have certain properties and characteristics to it If it doesn't have those properties and characteristics, it's not actually physical body

02:16:08

Okay, so what you're saying is that when he raised the bread up and said this is my body he didn't mean it

02:16:14

What did he mean by the phrase? I'm not saying he didn't mean it. I'm saying what did he mean? Well, that's a good question.

02:16:20

Well, here's another and i'm gonna follow that up with another question. I have again Why did people die if they received it unworthily in the scriptures?

02:16:28

Judgment upon them because they weren't understanding that was a sacrificial covenant sign representation And they're going there because some people think that what the context was

02:16:36

They're going to have these eating fests and they were abusing the blood of christ in that sense I know the reason but the point is it occurred upon the eating of the bread

02:16:46

That's why it doesn't talk about just the feasts. It says whoever eats this unworthily Shall receive to their condemnation.

02:16:51

So why would receiving the bread unworthily if it's just bread? Not uh, it would be that's another that's another thing.

02:16:59

What does that mean? But you know you're going to say it means you have to understand exactly what it means and his physical sense was there

02:17:06

But not his physical essence and the body was actually the bread was actually his body even though it wasn't actually his body

02:17:12

You're telling you The human essence of christ is separate from the body

02:17:20

Because it he continued on as a human after his physical death. What you're telling me is his physical body

02:17:27

His physical body is the bread wait now Hold on a second. You just said something really kind of weird.

02:17:33

You said that his human essence is uh I guess you

02:17:38

I assume you're circumscribing it to his human essence. But what about his divine essence? The hypothetic union teaches that the human and divine natures of christ are permanently united That that's it

02:17:52

So when the I know all this because I had to think through all this with annihilationism and But some other issues now, was it his human nature or was it his divine nature that changed the water into wine?

02:18:04

Bible doesn't say there's another doctrine called the communicate with yamatam and the personhood we can get into that another thing the thing i'm just saying is that um

02:18:13

When he died, uh, the physical body was in the tomb his human essence was elsewhere

02:18:20

And we could talk about that another topic be interesting Yeah, but they were united the human essence and a divine

02:18:28

The human nature and the divine nature were together. I don't know how that works in the single personhood of christ

02:18:35

Apart from his physical body at his death. You don't know how that works. No, I don't know.

02:18:41

I don't know how that works But then wait, but then why is accepting what he said in terms of the body so difficult for you, uh

02:18:51

I'm trying to explain it And so the physical body has its own characteristics separate from the humanness

02:18:59

Issue which can separate from the physical body and exist elsewhere So the physical body has its own set of characteristics by necessity

02:19:10

Physical characteristics i'm holding a back scratcher in my hand. My mom had this she said it for 30 40 years.

02:19:15

I've got it now It has certain characteristics. It's bamboo You know, I think it's bamboo. It's bamboo It's got you know weight and stuff like that and you know, and I have a a wallet here and uh

02:19:26

It's got certain characteristics. These are physical physical objects physical objects

02:19:31

Can god imbue those objects with spiritual power? with himself I Know of no instance in the scriptures where that is the case except to say in the incarnation

02:19:42

Of christ, but that's not imbuing it with spiritual power. That's an incarnation. What about the handkerchiefs of saint paul?

02:19:48

I brought up before Yeah, that's a that's a good point. Um, i'm not sure how to respond to that from my context

02:19:55

Because there's something was going on there, but I don't know exactly what was going on If those handkerchiefs had power in and of themselves

02:20:03

Then you would think that what would happen is they whoever had those handkerchiefs You better hope that they maybe somebody's got one of those got one of those handkerchiefs to this day

02:20:13

And he's bought it for a kabillion dollars and he rubbed it on himself every now and then so because he It probably wouldn't be a kabillion dollars, but that's why we keep relics

02:20:23

Yeah, relics. Yeah, that's another topic But that's I think you know

02:20:28

The handkerchief thing is the only thing that I think is interesting About that because i'm gonna study that some more and and you know,

02:20:34

I don't have any problem admitting that because it's right there in scripture But the thing is, you know

02:20:40

The physical body of christ has to do with the divinity of christ and the humanity of christ united in that body

02:20:47

But the divinity have characteristics and the humanity has characteristics which are separate from the physical body the human characteristics are not the same thing as A single cell and hemoglobin because we know the human essence the human spirit can be separated from the body

02:21:03

And continue on afterwards. We know that so therefore when jesus said this is my body

02:21:09

He was not talking about this is my humanity or my divinity Well, you you don't know that I'm just believing what he said

02:21:21

Just like yeah, right My body, right? Let's go with that It doesn't say it's divine doesn't say it has human essence

02:21:29

It says it's my body if it's if he's saying it literally it's like what he says if it's literal like you say

02:21:35

You kind of move the goal post you say well, it's actually his body But it's also not the case that it's actually his body and what you do is you'll say it's actually his body

02:21:43

But it's a spiritual essence of the body. There is no spiritual essence of a physical body

02:21:49

There is no physical spiritual essence of I happen to have a hammer right here I don't know why it's a hammer right here in my office, but this there's no spiritual essence to this this thing

02:22:01

If god wants there to be there will be uh, if he wants to be that it will be but um

02:22:08

That's it. That's kind of like begging the question. You can say well if he wants it He wants it here. He wants it there. He wants it there. He wants it here

02:22:13

So therefore that's how can we know where does christ bless hammers and say that you know, that's part of his body Well, he doesn't he only says it of of his body and i'm trying to understand exactly what is meant by the term

02:22:24

It is my body Because it cannot be that he's going to have them

02:22:30

Actually eat his actual flesh because it would violate the old testament law

02:22:36

We covered this part and that's when the people left Yes, but it would But he would not ask them to violate the law.

02:22:43

Jesus would not ask them to sin Hold on. I think andrew's got a point here Well, the the point is we went half an hour over the show the guys at the after show are waiting to start

02:22:54

Oh, sorry We can go in there about eight o 'clock Um, i'm going to drop the link in here for the after show.

02:23:01

So if you guys want to go in there Go in there and continue Um joseph one question for you.

02:23:08

Yeah, you believe that on that passover meal i'm going to go in i'll see you guys Okay.

02:23:13

Okay. You you believe that on that passover meal that That at that time jesus was offering his physical body and his blood, correct

02:23:22

But his say he was offering himself. I'm not gonna I don't get into the distinct Blood of my covenant.

02:23:29

Yeah Yes, but it wasn't it was before the passover which provides unleavened bread. Yeah, so You're saying that you believe that he offered his blood as the covenant before he actually was the sacrifice

02:23:43

Well, I think that that's an interesting thing because he says do this in memory of me He clearly offers his blood on the cross.

02:23:49

There's no doubt about that and we believe it's before the cross It's before the cross, but he's ordering his apostles to do it in memory of him.

02:23:57

Do you get what i'm saying? In other words, it's not so it's what i'm saying, which is nobody Yeah Exactly because christ is our passover, you know removing from that context

02:24:08

But the point being is your your argument is that he's offering the blood

02:24:14

Before the sacrifice of his blood i'm not I'm i'm not going to argue with the author of the scripture.

02:24:23

That's what it says well No, we're arguing about your interpretation of the scriptures.

02:24:29

That's the point. Okay. Well my point it's not an interpretation You You and may next week come in earlier

02:24:36

We can discuss when it is you should take the scriptures as literal as you're taking it and when you take it figurative

02:24:43

You're not using the same hermeneutic when matt brings up the door, right as you Absolutely, you're and you're right.

02:24:49

There are differences Correct, and this would be another case where you shouldn't be taking it literal the way you are

02:24:55

Because clearly he can't offer his blood before the sacrifice

02:25:00

We can do whatever he wants he's god so It doesn't work for me.

02:25:08

It was some weird thing I really I realize it's weird. I'm not I never said it's not weird.

02:25:13

Hold on. Let me get I know what's wrong with that link. It's it's that I have to Get a

02:25:21

Copy it a different way. Hold on matt all right, so if you go to um

02:25:27

And i'll drop a link for the after show. It's basically going to be um, is this the council?

02:25:33

Is the council? It's the same link That's the same link that's the one that they gave me

02:25:41

When I click on it it goes to Google hangout and then it says log in i'm already logged in And when

02:25:50

I log in was or try and click on one of my council log in it says get started by calling or message

02:25:55

A a friend below as it says if no one is in there Okay, I got the same thing when

02:26:02

I tried that link Okay We'll ask

02:26:10

Maybe we waited too long there Well, because i'm going to click it anyway and start it see what happens and uh, let's see if anybody goes in there

02:26:21

No, it's a video call That doesn't make any sense

02:26:28

Yeah, see you. Oh and john So, all right, oh we'll see maybe there won't be an after show tonight.

02:26:36

Um, okay I'll come back earlier next week. It's my fault. We started at 8 30 today. So we didn't finish till 9 30

02:26:42

Well, we start at eight o 'clock eastern time Okay I have a new link that i'll drop in here

02:26:49

Um, he just gave me a new link. So we'll drop that here Okay So that second link should be the good one um

02:27:02

So for folks who who are watching if you want to get these Every week we turn them into a podcast.

02:27:09

It's part of the christian podcast community. So you can just do a search for apologetics live apologetics live

02:27:16

On any podcast app should get you to the podcast version of this And that way you can listen to it over and over um as many times as you want to hear that catholic debate that was last week, uh, you can do that so We this is a ministry of striving for eternity the ministry

02:27:34

I work for and matt is our regular apologist um We do want to let you guys know

02:27:40

That if you are a podcaster Um, the christian podcast community is going to be opening up to applications

02:27:47

And therefore if you are interested, you can go to striving for eternity or actually you can go to christianpodcastcommunity .org

02:27:54

And get the some details to contact us from there So until next week,

02:28:00

I don't know we have a topic specifically for next week. It'll probably be open q a so folks come in early