Cultish: How To Disentangle From Fundamentalism

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Hey, what's up everyone? We are super excited to announce that we will be making our first appearance on the road in Simpsonville, Kentucky, July 28th and 29th at the called to freedom conference.

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If you are disentangling your faith after experience in a hyper fundamentalistic or a legalistic church group, this event is for you.

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There will be panel discussions, table discussions, inspiring testimonies, all from Christians who have rebuilt their faith.

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And even a game night guys. It's a weekend of rebuilding theology, rebuilding community and rebuilding faith through God's word.

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So definitely check that out. Also, Jerry and I, we're going to be speaking there and we're also super excited to meet you in person.

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You can register for the conference today at Berean holiness .com forward slash conference that's

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B E R E a and holiness .com forward slash conference. Also until May 31st, you can use the promo code cultish in all caps at checkout for $50 off the purchase price.

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We hope to see you there now back to the episode. All right.

01:03

Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts.

01:09

Uh, one of the co -hosts here, uh, very, very super excited. This is kind of a follow -up to our, uh, recent episode.

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We just dropped this past week, uh, about seven days ago with ginger nugger, really a great conversation.

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I know a lot of you have been really resonating with what, uh, her, both her book, what she talked about in our podcast, if you listen to some of her other interviews, uh, really excited to kind of have a follow -up conversation, really talking about disentangling, uh, how to disentangle from, uh, legalism.

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So we've got a couple of people with us today, joining me via zoom as always, my trusted, uh, virtual, uh, co -host, uh, super sleuth of the show,

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Andrew, the digital version of you. I know you're somewhere out there in Utah on the flesh, but as good as always to see, uh, you broadcasting from, uh, somewhere at a super secret, super secret location in Utah.

01:57

Good to see you, man. Hey, good to see you too. I'm excited about today, man. We have a guest on that we had on like a couple of years ago, man.

02:05

This is exciting. Yeah. So our first person we have with us, uh, joining us is, uh, Jennifer Brewer.

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Uh, it's good to have you back. It was December of 2019 that you joined us.

02:16

It's good to have you back in cultish. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. Yeah. It doesn't seem like it's been that long though.

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I know it's weird. Like 2020 did feel like seven years and it's like, and it's weird because this past weekend was like the weekend in 2020, right when everything, right before everything went crazy.

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Like this week was like when it started. So I was even looking at pictures and stuff. I'm like, did all that even really happen?

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This is, it felt like forever ago. But anyways, I'm glad that you joined us. Uh, you're joining us and I know, so your background, just give everyone the quick cliff notes.

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Uh, you had written a book that we talked about back in 2019. What was the name of the book again? Um, the name of my book is free from legalism to grace breaking out of the

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United Pentecostal church. Right. So you just had a background really. And we, you can definitely check out that episode, just really growing up in a very legalistic mindset, you know, long skirts, long hair, not being able to wear makeup and every, every aspect of your womanhood was like, if I do one wrong thing, you know,

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God's standing over you at any moment, you're going to make the, you're going to make some wrong mistake. You're going to get punished. So a lot of real, uh, fear -based, uh, you know, for sure.

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Um, and we also have with us, Natalie, uh, how are you doing? Hi, it's good to be here.

03:30

Thank you for having me. Yeah. So this is your first time on cold just to welcome. So just tell everyone about, uh, your background and, uh, what res.

03:38

Yeah. So tell us about your background where you're kind of like where, and then we talk about disentangling from legalism, uh, what tell, tell us about what you had to disentangle from and kind of like, what, what does that, what does that mean to you?

03:52

Sure. So I come from an independent church fellowship. So it's not technically a denomination.

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They actually kind of pride themselves in not being a denomination, but it is Trinitarian Pentecostal holiness is what

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I grew up in. And so we had, if you're familiar with the UPC or when it's

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Pentecostals, we had almost the exact same set of standards. And the reason why is because basically we used to be the same group and the, the oneness group split away from the

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Trinitarian holiness Pentecostals. So very, very similar. Um, so of course skirts, pants are an abomination and I work with a lot of what

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I would call hyper -fundamentalist groups and I find, um, a spectrum and some are saying, you know, this is just careful living, or we only do it because, uh, our pastors teach this.

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And it's like a pastor's conviction. That was not that way in my denomination. In my denomination, it was very, you know,

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I say domination, but anyways, it was very much heaven or hell. It was the Bible teaches this pants are an abomination.

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And if you do this, you are not going to heaven. Most certainly, uh, if you've, if you've been taught the truth and you've seen the light and you walked away from it, um, you were totally backslidden.

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That is the culture there. Of course, there are some, a few people who would deny that, but over or overall, that is the culture.

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That's the belief. Um, yeah. So no jewelry, no makeup, um, no pants, no sports, of course, no alcohol.

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Um, anyways, I won't comment, but, uh, yeah, I could go on and on.

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No TV, no wedding rings, no facial hair, obviously, because that's pride. I think we all know that.

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Um, yeah. And then besides that, some also had the perfectionist doctrine.

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So if you're familiar with instantaneous sanctification, um, that was a thing in some places, my grandfather actually, he, uh, let me know he not sinned in 48 years and he was very proud of that.

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Um, and there's a lot of people with that belief though. It's not everyone. And then besides that second work, there was also the third work and that's, um, more of your classical

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Pentecostal must speak in tongues before you receive the spirit. Wow. Natalie, what did you guys, what did you guys believe about holidays specifically?

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What about Easter and stuff? We did celebrate holidays. Now, not everyone. Actually, there are people in my immediate family who do not celebrate

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Christmas, but for, as a group, we did have holidays. Were you specific on like being

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King James only? Like you had to read like the King James was only, that's the only version that's God's version. Every other one's an abomination.

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What was that? Absolutely. Yeah. It was very much King James only.

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Um, and just throw the other Bibles in the trash. That was, that was more of the extreme that I grew up around again.

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There's it's a spectrum, but that's, that's a lot of what I grew up around. Hey everyone. Sorry to interrupt your programming, but this episode of the podcast is brought to you by stags consulting .com.

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They're going to, they would give you a free consultation for listeners only and go ahead and check them out.

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Again, stags consulting .com forward slash cultist. Definitely check them out back to the episode.

07:41

And then Jennifer and Natalie, how did you both connect? Cause you both have your separate backgrounds. We're going to be on flushing this because, but this is something that you both, you know, are doing ministry now, kind of like together with some different areas that we'll jump into in a little bit, but how did you two initially connect?

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Um, I made Natalie talk to me basically was I forced her.

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Um, no, actually, um, but she had mentioned something on a Facebook group and obviously we're in the same groups, you know, cause we have very similar backgrounds.

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We're connected to a lot of the same people. So I kind of knew who she was ish, um, just from being in Facebook groups together, but, um, no, she posted something and it made me like, it triggered me to say, huh, she would probably be a good person to reach out to about this idea that I have.

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So I messaged her and then we ended up like FaceTime me for what, like two or three hours.

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Natalie, the first time we talked cause we're like, oh my gosh, we have so much in common. Um, but yeah, that's, that's how we ended up talking and getting together.

08:42

Okay. Yeah. And speaking of like having so much in common, this is what I really want to flush out is that, uh, you know, we are, you're coming, we're having you on just in wake of the ginger episode that just dropped.

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Like if you just look at our comment section, um, you know, Allie best stuck his comment section.

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It's not just Bill Gothard and the ATI and that whole group. It's people from like your background and Natalie, your background.

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And there's so many like similar backgrounds. Like how many people do you think, I don't know, just like North America or general have, have like backgrounds in this.

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I mean, you, you're, you've had an active ministry and you've had people Jennifer buy your book from like all over the world. Like, like how many people do you think are, have been affected by these movements of just this very like legalism?

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Yeah. I, Natalie might have a better idea. I know for my book, um, which was self -published,

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I had no idea anyone was ever going to buy it. Like I didn't really write it for that. I wrote it for me, but that being said, without me even really promoting it, it's has sold thousands and yeah, all around the world.

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So it's crazy that there are so many people that have the same experience.

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And I've gotten so many emails and messages from people nonstop, even from my episodes on cultish from 2019 and 2020, like people still reach out to me about that.

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And it's just mind blowing to me because when you're going through that, you feel very isolated. Like there's not, you don't have any community and there's not anybody else around to talk to, or, you know, to kind of guide you through those feelings.

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Um, but it turns out there, there are a lot of people. Yeah. And maybe we could talk about this with, uh, so you listened to the podcast that Ginger was on with us and you've, you've read, you both have read her book.

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I sure did. Yeah. What did you, what, what struck, what resonated with you just with her story?

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And how do you see that? How do you feel like that's similar to it? Like, how do you resonate with her experience? Just some initial ideas.

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My initial thought was when I was listening to the episode, she was talking about how, um, and she mentioned this in her book too, how she viewed

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God as more like a tyrant and not a loving father. And that completely describes how my relationship with God was.

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And I, and I say relationship in it. I don't think I had one, honestly, because I had no concept of who

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God actually was. And so the God that I thought I had a relationship with isn't, he wasn't even

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God, that wasn't even the true God, if that makes any sense. Um, so since coming out of that and discovering grace and discovering the cross, even like that's something that was really looked over a lot in UPC churches.

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Um, I, I have just discovered like how God is a loving father and merciful and gracious toward us.

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And he's not like sitting up there with an anvil ready to just drop us at any second. That was my big takeaway.

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Yeah. What about you, Natalie? Yeah. So from Ginger specifically, there, there's a lot

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I resonated with. Um, one is superstition, that superstition element of,

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I don't know if you can even call it teaching, but enforcing beliefs basically. Um, so she gave like the houseplants example and a few others.

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So one that comes to me is when I was sitting in a youth camp,

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I believe it was a youth camp growing up. So I was young, I was impressionable. And I think that's why this memory lives with me.

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Um, but the, the preacher was very animated and dynamic and he was telling a story like it was a ghost story.

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And it was a story of two girls, just like me, who thought that they could get by with trimming their hair.

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And so they sat in the seat and it's like, you know, very dramatic telling I'm trying to skip through it, but they, you know, they sat in the seat to get their, their hair trimmed.

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And, uh, the barber started to trim their hair. And as he trimmed the Holy spirit left them as a physical,

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I believe it was a physical dove. Like they actually saw something and they started to scream and cry out,

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God, come back, come back, come back. But the Holy spirit had already, already, uh, lifted. Um, and the implication being that they were lost and they were just crying, but they'd like cross the bloodline.

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Um, so now, now they're, you know, they've lost God and they're just, it was such a dramatic, scary story.

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And of course, all of this to teach us girls that don't trim your hair. Don't even bite it. Don't get the nail clippers out.

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Um, don't burn it. It was like, okay, those are actual things that you think about doing and you're in that spot.

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Well, it's weird too. Cause you think of that, it's almost like a real life Tom and Jerry cartoon where it's like, you know, the goat, like some, like the ghost is trying to leave you and you're like hanging on to it or something.

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Um, but in all seriousness, it's like being like in that fear base. Like I shared in the podcast is that, um, like I went to a couple of Bill Gothard seminars as a kid and I was like secretly listening to Van Halen and a couple other like things in my

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Walkman. And after hearing Bill Gothard segment of rock and roll, I was terrified, like out of my mind, like I hid my

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Walkman and like in the back of my desk for like five weeks and I wouldn't even touch any of it. Um, but even,

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I remember like also what resonated, just jumping back even to prior to your episode,

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Jennifer, when you have the two, our two Canadian homies, uh, Andrew James Levesque and, uh, Jeff Solian is that I remember there is a moment we had really, our podcast really had just started and there's a moment where I think one of them said something about,

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I want to see, he's like, it was like he went from just being interviewed to kind of going into a pastoral mode. And he said something to the extent of, um, like you're like any woman who's been affected by the

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UPC, like I want to say like your, your beauty, your uniqueness or value worth is not judged by the length of your skirt or the length of your hair.

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And I was like trying to understand, and I could tell there's so much emotion gravitas coming with that. I was trying to say, okay, what is, what's going on here?

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And I didn't really push into that, but I remember there were people that were commenting when we dropped the podcast and there were like women who like, when they heard that moment, like they were like weeping, like they, it was like something they heard.

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It was like, oh my gosh. You know? So it just goes to show that there's so much gravitas that like comes with this conversation as a whole.

15:12

Um, Andrew, what are your thoughts here, man? Yeah. I remember in your book, uh, Jennifer, that that was like a really moving part for me talking about when you went to go get your haircut, like I'll never forget that when

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I was reading the book, even when we talked about it in the podcast. And, um, I'm wondering too, uh, Natalie, maybe

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Jennifer, if you can share, uh, your story first, um, just to bring our listeners into your world about that superstition, right before getting your haircut and then after getting, uh, your haircut and the, like, like the freedom or release and Natalie, I'm wondering if you ever experienced something like that as well.

15:45

Um, that was a pivotal moment for me for sure, because my hair hadn't been cut since my mom joined the

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UPC when I was eight. So it had been years. Um, my hair was gross.

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It was, it's, it was grown out. It was damaged. It was thin. So my stepsister actually was in town from California at the time and my mom wasn't home.

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And so my stepsister actually used to, um, well, she went to beauty school really young, so she used to do that.

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So I convinced her to cut my hair in my mom's kitchen. And, um, she was very reluctant at first cause she knew like how difficult it was going to be for me to process that.

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Cause I did not want to go. To just like a salon and do that. Because for me,

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I, I assumed I was going to cry. I assumed it was going to be like this big emotional event for me.

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And it was, but in a completely different way than what I thought. Like, I thought I was going to be upset.

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I thought maybe, you know, cause. And I, I don't know if Natalie, the holiness movement teaches, we briefly talked about this the other day about protection, um, and how the woman's hair was protecting her family basically.

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And, um, I thought, you know, my husband's going to leave, my kids are going to get run over by a bus. You know, all of this bad stuff is going to happen to me because I'm cutting my hair.

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But it was crazy because the exact opposite thing happened. So we're sitting in my mom's kitchen and my sister cut my hair and she only cut a few inches off, which is nothing when your hair is super long.

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Um, but I felt like just a physical burden released for me.

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It was like, it was just hair. But for me, that was like freedom.

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It's, it's, it's unexplainable. Really. I felt like I could breathe. I felt like this is new life, you know?

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And, um, even my daughter had the same, same experience. I've spoken to many people and even went to the salon with people, you know, to get their haircut for the first time.

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And I know a lot of people have that same experience and it's just, it's crazy because you think, why it's just a haircut, you know, looking in on it.

17:48

I'm sure it's like what in the world, but being in that position and always being taught with fear about, you know, this and this and this are going to happen to you if you, if you cut your hair or burn your hair, as Natalie said.

17:59

Um, it was, it was life changing. Yeah. And Natalie, what about you?

18:05

I appreciate you saying that, Jennifer. What about you, Natalie? Did you have, what about times with you? Like with your background, your upbringing,

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I'm sure there's a lot we could, we could have probably a whole podcast just, you know, talking about your story, but just specifically, uh, areas in which you kind of like had to disentangle was at a moment where you like, you had to cut your, it was like cutting your hair or was it, you know, wearing something like a t -shirt that showed both of your forearms or what was it, what was it like on your end?

18:30

Like the very kind of like that moment for you? Hmm. You know, I, I don't know if my answer is what exactly you're looking for, but I'm just going to share it.

18:40

Sure. Um, so for me, when it comes to that freedom moment, that weight off my chest moment,

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I have a little bit of a different story, um, from say Jennifer, because with, with you,

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Jennifer, you talk about how you wanted to cut your hair. Um, I literally didn't care.

18:59

And, uh, sorry to disappoint. My hair's never been cut because I just,

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I just don't care. And it's, it's for no biblical reason. Um, so in standards,

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I followed the standards for eight years after I already, um, believed that they were not biblical, but I did them because I love the holiness people.

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It was my whole world. It's a very exclusive culture. Um, I really didn't have Christian connections outside of it.

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And also, you know, I don't mean to sound, um, like I'm something, cause even back then

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I knew I wasn't, but there was this part of me that wanted to rescue the holiness movement. Um, because I saw the problems and I saw the lack of love and I saw the lack of outreach and the lack of Bible study and all these different problems.

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And I thought, you know, I'm going to go to their holiness Pentecostal Bible school and I'm going to, you know, be educated in their schools and then come to, to help them.

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Anyway. So me staying in the movement was all about me loving the people and really wanting to help the people.

20:05

Um, so for me, I think my freedom moment was when

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I was just a hundred percent real with them about what I actually believed, um, because I'd kept that to myself for eight years.

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And even though I would have said I kept it to myself out of respect or to keep the peace or whatever, it came down to people pleasing and it came down to fear of people.

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And it, it was so terrifying to just be a hundred percent authentic.

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This is what I believe the Bible says. I'm happy to follow holiness standards, but this is what I believe the Bible says, and I can't teach anything else.

20:42

Um, that was terrifying and the consequences were world shattering, but it was off my chest and that I just felt so free and so free to follow

20:57

Christ in a way I never had before. What would be a couple of those things that you felt like you really had to share that you're trying to sort of hold within you to keep the peace, but it sounds like you're being convicted about, could you give some examples of that?

21:10

Yeah, well, a lot of it was about standards, especially, um, initially, like one of the first ones that I talked to my spiritual mentors and leaders about was,

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Hey, I don't think it's an abomination for women to wear pants. Like it was really that, um, it was really that simple.

21:29

Yeah. And what, what would be assuming you said, you know, the consequences were life shattering. What's, what, what, what was that like for you?

21:37

Can you. Yeah, sure. So basically holiness was my world.

21:44

Um, and I lost that whole world. It was, it was my future. I was going to be a holiness missionary.

21:51

I'd already, you know, trained in their school. Um, I, so all my mission support was from holiness.

22:00

Um, I was, so after I, after word got out that I did not believe the holiness standards were biblical, um, the mission, like people that I had worked with closely and looked up to and who had been my mentor without ever reaching out to me, they started reaching out to close friends of mine and telling them to disassociate themselves from me that I was backslidden into disassociate, even though they never talked, you know, these authorities never talked to me.

22:31

Um, there were other authorities, you know, people in my life, people who I cared about, who I'd talked to, looked up to, you know, worked with whatever.

22:38

Um, who literally just blocked my number. Like they were just like, we're done with you. Not because of a fight, not because of this, that, and the other, just we're done with you.

22:47

Um, so yeah. So my, my number block, my name being, um, you know, defamed and just total lies being made up about me from ministers, um, making up lies about financial, you know, scandal or whatever that I have bank records to prove this is ridiculous.

23:05

This never happened, but publishing it. Um, so yeah. And one of the, one of the more dramatic things in my life was

23:13

I was actually interning at a church when I first shared with someone, Hey, I don't think this is biblical and they're like, okay, well you have a week and a half to get out.

23:22

So I not only, um, I almost lost my college degree. That's another story, but I did lose where I was living.

23:31

Um, and so I was literally living out of my car and the holiness friends that I would have stayed with before.

23:38

Cause remember all my friends are holiness. They literally told me you can't stay at our houses anymore. And then that turned into, you can't visit us anymore.

23:46

Um, I even had, there was someone who told me, you know, I come from a broken home, so when someone told me you're like a daughter to us, that meant so much.

23:57

Um, so much, I love those people so much and I still do, but after I was open about my beliefs about holiness standards, they told me to never visit them again.

24:08

So that, I mean, I really lost my whole community. So it's almost like you had to revisit that abandonment trauma, like all over again.

24:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, except it was everyone is what it felt like. Yeah. Go ahead,

24:25

Andrew. Yeah. It makes me think like, um, just pulling up, uh, open my Bible here in first Corinthians 13, it says, if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love,

24:33

I become a noisy gong or a glinging symbol. Uh, you can go on and on, but this section of scripture is really about love.

24:39

Right? And when I think about holiness and sanctification, I also think about abounding in love, grace, and mercy. Like where's the disconnect between the holiness standard and then the lack of love for, uh, the people who may be convicted of something different than what these people do in the holiness standard.

24:57

What? I don't know. It's, it's hard for me to understand how do they navigate passages like first Corinthians 13, you know, how, how does that work?

25:08

Um, I think they, they think that it's love. Um, I think that they, if I'm trying to watch what

25:19

I say here, I really think that they think telling someone they're wrong and cutting them off is love because for them, that's how they view

25:30

God and that's how they think God would, would handle it and treat them. And for them, like, okay, you don't agree with me anymore.

25:37

You don't agree with these standards, then I'm just going to not talk to you. And I think it's one it's based out of fear because they're afraid that you're going to rub off on them, um, or, you know, whatever, but two,

25:49

I honestly feel like they're, they think they're doing it out of love and they read those chapters. And I think they think that that applies to them, but I think the disconnect happens when the word holiness is used, not to describe

26:03

God or describe his righteousness, but to describe your outward standards. Yeah.

26:11

I'll just add to that. Some of the people who cut me off when they cut me off, there was literally just to give one example, there was someone who

26:19

I used to be so close to, at least I thought I was so close to this person. And I noticed afterwards, they just kept distancing themselves.

26:29

I would want to visit, there'd be excuses, et cetera. And I was just getting a really bad feeling that I was losing this person.

26:35

And finally they texted me and they're like, you know, I prayed about it and I can't, I can't visit you. And I just said,

26:41

Hey, is this because are you cutting me off? Are we still friends? And they just texted back.

26:46

I love you. And so that, and that is, that was repeated in other relationships as well.

26:53

Basically when I'm just like, Hey, you know, do we still, can we still get together? Can we still be friends?

26:58

And they just be like, I love you. But those were the words that they used to cut me off. And for some people, it was like my last text that I heard from them.

27:05

And so honestly, to be vulnerable, I, I don't like the words. I love you, especially coming from certain people because they trigger those memories of being cut off because those words were used to cut me off.

27:17

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28:03

Yeah. Oh, there's, there's, I appreciate you sharing that again. There's just so much gravitas to what you're saying.

28:08

Another example too, and I think this is something that Ginger talked a lot about in her book, and this is be similar to your backgrounds.

28:15

Maybe we can just touch on this for a little bit. Um, and this is also just, this is also not for the women. It's also for the men when it comes to like modesty and apparel.

28:22

Like I've seen videos of, uh, certain fundamentalists who talk about how having a beard, you know, is an abomination that keep me even having what

28:30

I have random, what he has. Um, you know, it's just, I just do it because I think my chin looks hideous.

28:35

Uh, even though, even though I am in the image of God, I prefer to have a beard versus a bear chin. But anyways, um, yeah, a lot of the, uh, way that people, a lot of it, like the way that people dress or even, you know, the modesty codes, you know, the

28:49

Bible does talk about modesty, but there's a specific way it comes out of how you dress and how you make your appearance comes out of like your, your love for God and your desire to please him, not this over -based fear that if I use one part of my, um, you know, if I show just a little bit of my skin,

29:04

God, either God's going to be mad at me or all of a sudden, like all the men walk around or just raging with lust, and if you just do one thing, you're going to make all these men stumble, which will be your fault.

29:12

Which then goes into a lot of distorted ways about how, uh, even abuse is perpetuated, but also handled, uh, when that church, yeah.

29:20

Could you want to just give me your thoughts or let's, let's elaborate on that a little bit. You got something,

29:27

Natalie? Yeah. So we're talking about just to reframe your question and make sure

29:35

I understand the abuse that's perpetuated through the standards.

29:40

Well, no, I would just say, no, I think what I was talking about is, uh, could you give us some, just, could you give some examples about when we look at like modesty,

29:48

Ginger Duggar talked about that, uh, in her book about how she saw it, the way that they're supposed to dress is based off of, you know, fear of God.

29:57

Um, and then it, and this is also would be the case for the men, but, you know, in Jennifer's experience, you know, you would have to dress a certain way being like modest wise, but it's all, it's, it's a kind of, it's a distorted version off of biblical modesty.

30:12

Maybe just, just elaborate that for me, like your experience or what you kind of seen with Jennifer's story. Also with Ginger, like how, how do you resonate with that?

30:21

Yeah, so it's, yeah, it is, it is distorted for sure.

30:28

Um, it's very much a checklist. Um, and this is something, this is something

30:35

I really want to communicate to mainstream Christianity is that these standards, they are not, they are not just a quaint choices that people make because, and I emphasize this over and over and over again on Berean holiness, that there is nothing wrong with freely choosing to wear the floor length skirts or long sleeves or being clean shaven.

31:01

There's nothing wrong with that at all. So what, so holiness standards, they are just the surface.

31:08

They're just the tip of the iceberg and they are used in these groups. Um, and that's really important to understand.

31:14

And that's why they're the core. They're so important to these groups is because let me, let me just go through a couple bullet points real quick.

31:24

Sure. So holiness standards are, and it doesn't matter by the way, I know we're talking about different groups here.

31:31

Different groups have different standards. Ginger Duggars and you know, the Gothard group that has different standards than when

31:37

I grew up with Jennifer had different standards. So it doesn't matter what the set of standards is, but these sets, these sets of standards, they are the control factor that authoritarian leaders used to create in us versus them dynamic in order to isolate their group, um, from the body of And then two, they are, the holiness standards are a reason

32:00

Bible study is not prioritized and congregants are taught to misinterpret the

32:06

Bible. Um, holiness standards are the works that are used to secure salvation and to earn holiness.

32:14

They are the manmade rules enforced with fear and shame to the point of distorting people's relationship with God and their understanding of the gospel.

32:22

And they are an alternative. I would say a worldly system of, um, gaining spiritual maturity because spiritual maturity is not measured in these groups by your love for people.

32:34

It's not John 13, 35, where Jesus said, you'll know my disciples by their love.

32:39

It's not the fruit of the spirit, which is, you know, the fruit of the spirit, like the evidence of the spirit working in you.

32:46

Um, that it's not that from Galatians five, it really is this whole other system of gauging, uh, spirituality.

32:53

And you are as holy as you are conformed to your group's standards.

32:59

It's funny if you go, if you're even stricter than your group, a lot of times you'll get criticized. Like if someone comes in wearing plain dress, you know, midnight clothing, um, to one of our churches that that would be criticized.

33:11

So it's not about just being stricter as holier. It's about being conformed to the leader standards and those are used as a form of control.

33:20

Um, so yeah, man, I, I could go on, but I'll stop there. That, that is heavy.

33:27

And that resonates like that. That's I've been trying to put my finger on it because like I said, your story, like, and I, again,

33:33

I have a background coming from like the growing up in purity culture, the Josh Harris movement.

33:39

I mean, that's kind of like my background. I mean, I remember going to those conferences when he was like 18 years old and stuff like that, um, that definitely resonates for me.

33:47

And I think you hit it on the pen when you like really describing that to a T because it is like a birds of a feather that tends to be the commonality.

33:55

So I think you nailed it there. Uh, Andrew, what are your thoughts, man? Yeah. Uh, Natalie, you have me thinking because, uh, it seems that if there's a counterfeit sink sanctification going on, that's not produced through the

34:07

Holy spirit, bringing about the fruits of the spirit and convictions that may people may have on a personal basis, you'd think then that the fruits of a counterfeit sanctification would actually breed the deeds of the flesh, right?

34:19

Cause you were mentioning, uh, the fruits of the spirit also in Galatians five, where the fruits of the spirit are mentioned. So are the deeds of the flesh, right?

34:25

Like, uh, uh, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions are these things that are occurring then within these holiness movements.

34:36

Uh, and you would think that those would be things that would be happening quite often, but they're kind of like made maybe hush hush about or something like that.

34:43

My opinion about that and Natalie's might be different, but idolatry is huge because I think that they idolize their outer parents, they idolize they're being set apart from everyone else in mainstream

34:57

Christianity and they, that turns to pride because, you know, look at me,

35:02

I'm better than, than that guy. Cause, and it just reminds me of the Pharisees and Jesus being like, whoa, no, we're not doing that.

35:08

Um, but they don't see it. It's in, it's very hard to see it when you're in it. Hmm. No, that that's good.

35:17

Um, let's talk about this in Ginger's book. And I think all of you, there's a similar experience when we talk about disentanglement versus deconstruction.

35:27

I've noticed that, you know, a lot of similar groups when, and even when

35:32

I was doing some research, kind of rehashing some of the, you know, Bill Gothard conversations or people in the similar fundamental recovering from fundamentalism.

35:40

A lot of those tend to be people who have fully deconstructed. And a lot of the stories, honestly, are heartbreaking.

35:45

Like there's just a couple of times where like I was, I was driving for Uber in the morning. I was sort of listening to a podcast in the background, just a story of abuse and manipulation from that leader.

35:56

I just, my heart sank. I just like my heart absolutely broke. I was like teared up, but then it's a situation where she threw out the baby with the bathwater and it was totally, you know, walked away.

36:06

And that's where the majority of people, not just people who are sort of in this evangelical legalism, but just ex -cultists, the majority of them become atheists and agnostic.

36:15

For both of you, you can decide who wants to go first. I mean, how, how have you been able to disentangle that counterfeit versus embracing an authentic relationship with Christ?

36:26

Can you just, I mean, we have previous episodes. Can you give us some examples of what that process was like for you?

36:32

Of, of how, how have, exactly how have you disentangled or what do you, what are you currently are doing?

36:39

Yeah. And I understand where those people are coming from. I think it would have been super easy for me to completely walk away from Christianity, at the point where I realized that what

36:49

I had was, was false. And it took a lot of studying. It took a lot of faith.

36:55

I know like my husband went through a phase, you know, questioning God, does God even exist?

37:00

And because everything that you've been taught your entire life turns out to be wrong, you know, you do question those things.

37:07

And so I can ease, I can see where that you would just keep going down that path. Um, for me,

37:12

I, I fell in love with God's word. Like at the point where I realized what we had was wrong and how

37:21

I had been interpreting scripture was wrong. Um, I just couldn't get enough. Like I just kept reading and reading and reading and studying.

37:28

And, um, I found a relationship with Christ through that. I honestly, like I said before,

37:33

I don't think I had a relationship with God before, because I didn't view him correctly. And I think that's how

37:38

I ended up not going down that road. You know, I really think God's word guided me.

37:44

And between that and my husband's studying out things, um, and just us having conversations and my kids, you know,

37:51

I didn't, I was trying to be very careful of what I was doing because of my kids. Um, so I think that was, that's the only thing that saved me.

37:59

What about you, Natalie? Yeah. So funny story. Apologetics, Christian apologetics, reasons to believe

38:07

Christianity true is true. Uh, they can be dangerous to hyper fundamentalists. And I think,

38:13

I think that's the reason why many don't even teach it. Um, because apologetics really helped set me down the path of disentangling.

38:22

And the reason why is because apologetics, which I loved starting at 11 or 12,

38:28

I think 12 years old, I got just a huge pile of books and DVDs for Christmas of all apologetics,

38:35

I was, I was in love with it. Um, so I started studying and that taught me to think critically.

38:42

It taught me to, you know, about logic and arguments and cross -examination and the importance of questions and all this, um, you know, which holiness people thought was all good and fine.

38:53

Um, but then when I started to cross examine holiness standards, um,

38:58

I used that same process of critical thinking and logic. And whereas this, this process of studying, um, was affirming the

39:09

Christian faith and just making me as sure as ever that God is real. Christianity is true.

39:15

The Bible is God's word. That same process was talking me out of the holiness standards.

39:22

Um, so it, yeah, I, I was building in my faith during that time. But I want to add,

39:28

I want to add one more thing. Um, because with Brian holiness are basically my full -time job at this point is just walking with people through this disentanglement process and trying to create, um, a process.

39:41

Um, so people can have all the help and the resources in the community that they need during this season.

39:48

Um, and what I have learned is if someone, if someone just, if they see the spiritual abuse components, but they never actually study out their beliefs, they are some of the most vulnerable to just leaving the faith entirely, the people who think that they're hyper -fundamentalist group or their cult, if they're raising a cult, um, if they think that's what the gospel is, if they think that is what true

40:14

Christianity is, if they keep that, that cult mindset that they're brainwashed to have, those are the ones who leave the faith because those are the ones they see the abuse.

40:22

They send this is horrible. This is, I don't want this religion. And they leave everything. Um, yeah,

40:28

I, I know so many people who, who, even after they've left, they still idolize holiness churches, holiness preachers, because they still have that holiness mindset after they left.

40:40

Um, and it is so important to help people really study through their beliefs that is because through that process, they learn about the true gospel, really it comes, it boils down to, they were given a skewed, distorted, even a false gospel.

40:54

So no wonder they leave it. Yeah. Um, Jennifer, did you ever thought you want to add on to that?

41:01

No, I think she, she covered it really well. But I mean, like she said, it's, it's easy to see where they would go down that road because they don't, it was a false gospel.

41:10

Yeah. And I honestly didn't even know what the word gospel meant until I studied it out when we left. Yeah. I thought the gospel was

41:17

Acts 2 38. That's what I was always taught. Yep. Yep. Um, so the, one of my favorite books that I picked up a couple of years ago, actually, and I think it was the first time

41:25

I went up to Salt Lake in 2019, um, was that it was a book by Janice at, uh, Utah lighthouse ministry when it was still around, shout out to Sandra Tanner, appreciate all her work that she did, she's done, but it was a book called out of the cults and into the church by Janice Hutchison called understanding and encouraging ex cultists.

41:43

And really one of the things she really emphasized in this book was understanding that there's just a lot of baggage that a cult is even someone who legitimately comes to Christ who does disentangle.

41:55

There's just deep rooted mindset, psychological manipulation, sociological manipulation.

42:02

And sometimes it's for the benefit. If you think about Mike render, when he was on, he was talking about how he'd after he left

42:09

Scientology, he did so well at that car sales company, because even though he was, he was only working like 8 00

42:17

AM to 8 PM, that was like part time in comparison to like a steep sleep deprivation for Scientology.

42:23

But you know what I mean? There's a lot of people though, they have baggage that comes with like that unthinking.

42:30

I don't know, could either one of you give examples and ex cultists that you've talked about? What are things that you've had to help walk them through when it comes to that disentanglement process?

42:41

There are, there are two things that come to mind immediately. Um, one is faith community.

42:48

It is so hard to go back to church, um, after you've been spiritually abused by a church.

42:55

And I've experienced, you know, a little bit of that spiritual abuse component. I've had multiple times.

43:01

I've had the speaker, uh, target me in the audience and, you know, come after me. And I, many of the people who

43:06

I talk to have this same experience and it is, it is traumatizing. You don't want to see a preacher get up. I mean,

43:12

I had a guy at a huge, a huge camp meeting. Well, for holiness, for holiness, Pentecostals, it was big.

43:18

And, um, just from, from the platform, talk about me and everyone's like, well, you didn't say your name, right.

43:25

But multiple holiness people came up afterwards and was like, I can't believe he preached the whole sermon about you. I mean, so it was pretty specific.

43:32

It was about people who, you know, leave and, um, attack holiness and et cetera. But, you know, he had this whole prophecy about how he saw my heart and it was stone.

43:42

And it was this dramatic moment of him shaking his hands, almost like a, I don't know, cold or just grabbing someone and saying,

43:50

I wish I could get ahold of you. And it was terrifying. And my, you know, my heart's just beating and it was, it was scary.

43:57

And so when, um, and I tell, I tell my story because, you know, I, I can't tell someone else's, but long story short, a lot of people have had experiences like that.

44:07

And so when you've experienced something like that, and then you see a minister get up in the, the, um, pulpit, it's, it's, it's terrifying and it can cause panic attacks and anxiety attacks.

44:19

So it's very, very hard to go back to church, um, any church. And also when you were told the outside world, they're, they're all compromised and they're backslidden and they've been given over to the devil and he's working through all those worldly churches.

44:32

So you got to overcome that narrative. And then the other thing I will mention is spiritual disciplines are tough, um, after coming from a legalistic background.

44:42

And I mean, it's, it's hard for a couple reasons. One is because it can trigger your own memories of when you were crying out to God, oh, please save me, forgive me, you know, whatever it was in that, those emotions of desperation and feeling, feeling like God is harsh and judgmental and, and going to get you basically.

45:01

I mean, I had a, I had a point when I was like maybe around 14 or 15 that I felt like I had to pray two hours and 24 minutes a day because it was preached that we have to give

45:12

God 10 % of our time. And the only way they could see that is through prayer. And through that one sermon,

45:18

I was convinced I've got to pray two hours and 24 minutes, and it was exhausting and just so hard.

45:24

Um, and it, you know, those memories make prayer and Bible reading and fasting really difficult.

45:30

Um, and then the only other thing I'll, I'll mention and finish is that also when you see people who pray for three hours in the morning, speak in tongues, the whole, the whole kit and caboodle, and then come out and, you know, scream at someone or lie about someone when you see this blatant hypocrisy from these spiritual, spiritual people, it ruins you.

45:53

It's like, what is the point of prayer? If that's what I'm going to be like afterwards. Now, a lot of layers to that.

45:59

Andrew, let me get your thoughts, man, because you are in the epicenter of Utah, which is just so many different cults, uh, weird, weird teachings out there.

46:09

Uh, like what's been your process and the type of cult that you and pass away to administer to people who are ex cultists, what, what, what, what, what, what has resonated with you and Natalie just talked about, what, what do you, what are your thoughts, man?

46:23

Yeah. Um, I think they've both hit on the theme pretty much. I think it's learning how to think, uh, critically and biblically, uh, as well, and thinking for yourself.

46:32

I think that, um, what was very apparent to me, which I thought found was very interesting, Natalie, what you said was, uh, people, when they come out of these movements, if they've never essentially, uh, have disentangled, even though they may say they have deconstructed and they go to atheism or some agnosticism or whatever, they actually have never really left the cult mindset.

46:52

Yeah. I found that to be very, uh, very powerful thought because I think truly the only way you can really renew your mind is to do it through the word of God and the

47:02

Holy Spirit being the one that helps you, right. That heals you from, uh, these abuses.

47:08

I I'd find that most times, even with counseling out here, it's really trying to help someone read the Bible for themselves, but also understand what the

47:16

Bible says about how they are thinking. Uh, I just, I got a quick question for, for both of you guys.

47:22

How, how do you help people do that when they're coming out of these movements? Are you just going through to the word with them?

47:28

Are you just helping them to get into their Bibles or what's like the process look like for you guys? Uh, um, for me personally, when

47:36

I have somebody messaged me, um, you know, I, and to add to what Natalie said, triggers are a huge thing that like,

47:43

I didn't, I didn't know. So I know a lot of people have issues with like certain words that are said, or, you know, the way some, something comes across, it just triggers them and puts them back into that, um, fear.

47:57

So I usually try to point them into the direction of resources. You know, I have a couple of YouTube channels that I point them to or Berean holiness, or, um, there's several like Facebook, private

48:09

Facebook groups where they're designed specifically just to ask questions. You know, no one is in there judging you.

48:15

Um, everyone in there has walked the same path and, you know, we're not going to, you know, make you feel bad or stupid or whatever for asking questions that, you know, seem maybe elementary to some seasoned

48:28

Christians who haven't had the spiritual abuse, but for those of us who have walked the path of relearning God and D you know,

48:35

I almost said deconstructing, but that's not the proper term, be disentangling our faith.

48:41

Um, it, it's, it's nice to have that safe place. And, um, yeah, that's usually where I point people, but Natalie, I'm sure has a lot more resources.

48:55

What about you, Natalie? What are your thoughts? When people are disentangling, they really need two things, especially they do need this study.

49:05

Um, so cross -examining with God's word, with the resources, and this is why we have articles, we have a podcast and I have a whole resource page, you know, to outside resources too.

49:15

So yes, we need all these, these great resources. Um, but they also need community.

49:20

Community is so important. Um, so we have, you know, basically private, uh, like Jennifer said, private forums where, um, people can post and encourage each other and connect, um, and then, you know, we put them in touch with each other and we try to find a more seasoned people who are, you know, grounded in Christ after leaving one of these groups and, and connect them with someone who's just, just starting the process.

49:47

Um, and at Berean Holiness, we have an opportunity to do something really special. And actually we just started this season, um, yesterday and that is community groups.

49:56

We have online groups through zoom, just like a format similar to this, where we're just walking with people, studying with them, sharing our stories.

50:05

And it is, it's not a class. It is very discussion oriented because we want people, people don't only need to be told stuff.

50:15

They need to be listened to. And that is very, very difficult. And mainstream Christians who are listening, please, if you know someone who's come from one of these backgrounds, just sit down, close your mouth and let them know that you really care and just listen.

50:31

And I don't mean that in any kind of derogatory sense, but it's just, they need people to listen.

50:38

And even if you don't understand to just show compassion, because they've had, they've just had people, you know, that they idolize spiritually as heroes of the faith, you know, just chew them up and spit them out for lack of a better expression.

50:52

And you feel so lonely, so neglected and so unheard. And there's nothing worse than trying to go to a new church, um, and trying to tell your story.

51:02

And this course was my experience, um, at certain places, not everywhere, but trying to tell your story and then just be like, huh, that's weird.

51:11

You know, next, you know, it's just, they really need community. So I'm really grateful to be able to do the seasonal community groups.

51:19

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51:29

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51:38

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51:47

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51:54

Do you think for most people who go through this whole process, just with all the gaslighting that typically happens in these type of environments, that most of the times when people are doing this disentanglement, the initial process is almost pretty much in isolation where it feels like they're the one who's going crazy, but everyone else seems to be sane and right.

52:15

A hundred percent. Yeah. How do you, um, so with that being said, like, um, talk about just maybe like the importance of community.

52:24

Cause I've noticed too, that a lot of people, when they go through this whole process of one disentangling, deconstructing, disconnecting, uh, whatever you want to call it, when they go through the whole process, and even you can see in documentaries like Scientology, the aftermath, like one of the things you noticed, even when

52:39

I know it's about the whole series with Leah and Mike was, there was like a real community aspect of people who are survivors because all of a sudden it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, what happened?

52:51

That's how you were treated. It was just cut and dry. You're like me too. But I thought, I thought it was the only one.

52:57

And then all of a sudden you have this like relatability that comes out of nowhere, which shows just the importance that, uh, that sort of community, why that community you're talking about was needed.

53:08

Oh, for sure. There's something to be said about talking to someone who gets it, you know, people who even we have great friends.

53:17

They do our podcasts with us. You know, they are in our lives all the time, but they didn't come from the same background.

53:23

But for me, like the biggest thing that they have done is like, Natalie says, listened and didn't think we were crazy and came alongside us, but still we don't have that ability to be like, oh, remember when, you know, this happened or, you know,

53:39

I want to remember when we felt this way or when we believe this way, you know, I'm a very sarcastic person.

53:45

That's just how I I've picked up on that over the years. We've known each other. I know.

53:50

So I, you know, it's probably not completely healthy, but we, we cope with humor, we cope with sarcasm.

53:57

And if you don't come from that place, Like, you don't get it. You just, you just can't.

54:03

You just, there's no way for you to. So to have that community, I think is, is huge and helping heal.

54:10

Yeah. And speaking of community, I know you guys are doing a lot of great, you know, stuff online that we'll have some links out for the episode.

54:19

People can connect with you both online, but I think not only in today's social media age, I feel like we're in so many ways we're connected in so many ways, but I think nothing as cool as social media is nothing beats being able to actually like meet in a group face to face.

54:35

And I think we, it all took us 2020 to help us really understand just how much, you know, that community, that community is really needed.

54:42

So what I want to talk about, I'm actually really excited about this is that this is a internet, we've done a couple little, you know, appearances at like Reform Con, but we're going to be actually teaming up with you all later on this year.

54:55

And so you are, are putting on a sort of a live event for people who have come from these sorts of backgrounds. Talk a little bit about that.

55:03

Yeah. So it's called called a freedom conference. It's going to be in July in Kentucky.

55:09

And that was, you know, one of the things that Natalie and I had in common was we really had this on our heart to, to get people together, to help them just heal and get past things, just learn about how the gospel can change them, the real gospel, the authentic gospel, and you know, people coming together and sharing their stories, there's a lot of strength to be found in that.

55:34

So I'm sure Natalie can add to. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.

55:41

So just one more little fact about community before I talk about the conference, I believe it was the book, the rise and triumph of the modern self.

55:50

If I got that title, right. But he talks about how we see ourselves through the eyes of others.

55:56

Basically when people tell us you're this or you're that they're holding up a mirror for us to see ourselves.

56:02

So when people say you're a Jezebel, you're a backslider, no matter what we know in our heads, emotionally, we feel, and we see ourselves like what they're telling us.

56:11

And so that's why it is critical if we are pursuing Christ and we want to stay Christians for us to surround ourselves with like -minded believers, brothers and sisters who are saying you are loved.

56:22

You are valuable. You are a child of the King. You're not crazy. You're not a backslider. You're going after God's word and you're on the right path and I'm there with you.

56:32

And so that's what we really want this conference to be just a time of fellowship. And of course we have our awesome sessions and we're so excited about the panelists and especially our speakers, which are you guys.

56:46

And we're really, really glad to have you and listen, talking about, you know, what is a healthy church look like and what is unhealthy?

56:54

What are the red flags of an unhealthy church? I'm looking forward to that discussion and talking about identity in Christ.

57:01

And maybe we'll be able to also discuss and, you know, we have quite a few things going on, but what is spiritual abuse?

57:09

Because so many people are gaslit into thinking, Oh no, that was just discipline. Yeah. No. Or somehow, somehow

57:15

I deserve this. Like something is wrong with me. Right. I did something wrong. That's totally back to how we see ourselves.

57:22

Right. Seeing ourselves as worthless because of what we've, the feedback we've gotten from others, because that is so powerful.

57:31

So anyways, yes, we want to go through all this awesome content, but then also I'm pretty excited. We're going to try something and we'll see how it goes.

57:38

I, so I come to a lot of conferences. I come alone and I leave alone and that is what we did not want to happen here.

57:48

So we're really trying to build and foster community at every, every point.

57:53

So two ways that that is expressed here. One is we want to sit around round tables and actually have like small groups.

58:02

So you sit with your table, you introduce yourself towards the beginning of the conference. We, we go through the sessions together and then we get to talk and process together as well.

58:13

And then the other, the other way we're really trying to build in community is we have a night set apart on Friday night where we just want to come together and fellowship and honestly have like game night, hopefully food, and just have a fun, great time just getting to know each other, sharing our stories, talking.

58:35

So we're really excited about how we're building community into this called the freedom conference. Awesome. Yeah, I know.

58:40

I'm really, I'm really excited. I've been kind of thinking about, I mean, I, I usually, it crosses my mind maybe at least once a day or so just about, okay, who's going to be there.

58:49

And the one thing always comes to mind for me is that when we do this, we'll give some details in a second, is that I'm just thinking every single person who attends this conference usually is going to, is going to have some sort of story.

59:00

It could be from the holiness background. It could be a UPC. It could be some sort of Mormonism fundamentalist sect.

59:09

Like it could be anything. And all these people have gone through this whole disentanglement process in isolation and realizing that, you know what?

59:19

I'm not alone. There's a person next to me and here and here and here that has this whole story.

59:25

And, you know, like I want, I'm really hoping that this conference, we can, hopefully that somehow

59:30

I can try and help people. There's something special about me, but I want to help people there like rediscover like who they are, like in Christ for the very first time that your self -worth is not attested by, you know, what some, you know, fundy bundle of joy told you, like from the pulpit, because, you know, because you didn't dress a certain way, like, no, this is what

59:52

God actually says about you. And so many people have a total misunderstanding of that.

59:58

So I think it's really that, but really just kind of really talk through and just really talk through,

01:00:03

I want to get people to talk. I'll give it like an example too, of just, you know, what I've experienced in ministry and Andrew, maybe you can give example too, is like, we had an example where, uh, we at our church, we had to do a legitimate example of like biblical church discipline.

01:00:19

Now we go through the whole process. This person's unrepentant. And finally, like reluctantly the pastors grievingly have to bring someone before the church because they're an unrepentant sin.

01:00:28

Uh, there was someone attending our church at the time who was an, uh, ex Jehovah's witness. He is watching the whole process.

01:00:34

He's a brand new member of the church deer in the headlights. And I say, Hey man, let me like, you want to talk real quick?

01:00:41

And he's like, yeah. And so I had to walk him through, like explain what this process was. This isn't shunning.

01:00:48

This isn't, we're not like wishing his destruction on him. Like we're broken over this, this whole process.

01:00:54

And then we're explaining the whole, we had to help him like disconnect from the abusive version of Jehovah's witnesses where you're supposed to not even like look into the person's eyes.

01:01:03

Like not that. No, but we're, we're supposed to like, we're, we're seeking restoration because they're involved in some sort of sin that this sin leads to death.

01:01:12

So like we had to go through this whole process, but every single person who's been in a background, like they have this bag is that they need, they need people to talk to and people to walk through.

01:01:22

So I, that's something that I am really, uh, you know, looking forward to just helping, uh, foster that community, but also helping you both.

01:01:30

I know this is a huge passion project of yours too. Andrew, what are you looking forward to about this?

01:01:37

Yeah, I'm, I'm excited because the community is a, it's a big deal, right? Like the Bible says that we hold fast to the head who is

01:01:43

Christ and we're sewn like joints and ligaments who grow with the growth that is from God. And that's the body of believers, uh, united in Christ.

01:01:50

And there's a demographic of people that have been suffering, uh, in silence really through, uh, abusive.

01:01:56

Uh, churches or legalism or standards that are not God's word, right.

01:02:01

That has brought about spiritual abuse. And like, like we say, bad theology hurts people and we need to harbor a community in a sense to where people can find, uh, that identity in Christ.

01:02:14

So they can help one another in the body and also go back to their churches and be helpful at their local body in order to help other people that are coming out of this type of situation.

01:02:25

Because my hope is that more people are coming to the true gospel, right? The true Christ, uh, of scripture finding freedom when the sun sets you free, you are free indeed.

01:02:35

And that they will be able to, uh, assist other people. And I think a conference like this will be, uh, a tool essentially for the individual who is coming there that they've not, they're not defined by their past, right?

01:02:49

Like Jesus died for them. They don't have to live in it, but through their past, they can use it as a lens to help other people who are going through suffering.

01:02:57

And I think the conference is going to be, uh, awesome to be able to do that and show people, uh, how to love one another in that way.

01:03:04

So that's something I'm extremely excited for. Yeah. And so just for people who, uh, to really sum up, this is about helping people who get out of the cults, uh, into a good church, help them rediscover their identity in Christ, uh, because the existence of a counterfeit as Walter Martin would say, predicates the authenticity of the original.

01:03:23

Uh, we want to help everyone through that process in real time. Um, can you go both just give some details too about where is this conference?

01:03:31

Now we have a huge audience. If anyone from our audience is actually interested in getting connected with you, but, uh, specifically, uh, get it, getting, uh, connected to be part of this conference that we're going to be the featured speakers of, uh, tell them about, uh, where they can, uh, sign up and what are the dates of this conference?

01:03:48

Where's the location? Give them some of those details if you could. Natalie, I was looking at my phone.

01:03:56

I'm like, what are the last I checked it was July 28th and 29th.

01:04:02

Yeah. I mean, that's Friday and Saturday. Uh, yeah. So we're going to try to start around 12. Um, and that's going to be on Eastern time and on Friday, give people time to get in and hopefully get out around five on Saturday and again, just that travel time, but we're going to make the most of everything, uh, between those two times.

01:04:21

Um, so really looking forward to it. Yeah. And that's in Simpsonville, Kentucky, and you can sign up, uh, register and it is a small venue, so the space is limited.

01:04:32

So if you want to make sure you can come, please get your ticket earlier. Um, it is, you'll find it on our website.

01:04:37

It is bereanholiness .com slash conference. Um, and Berean is like act 1711 is

01:04:45

B E R E A N bereanholiness .com slash conference.

01:04:51

Um, yeah. And you'll be able to register and sign up there and use the cultish discount until May 31st.

01:04:57

May 31st. Yeah. So use it when you go and get these tickets, use cultish, you'll get a discount at that. And so you can see, uh, myself,

01:05:04

Andrew live, and we're going to do some extra things. I think we're Andrew, you're going to bring your podcast, uh, equipment on the road.

01:05:10

So we might do another fans only podcast or attendees only podcast. If you can kind of just jump in, do a podcast about the conference, what people are learning about, uh, it should be really good.

01:05:19

Cause like I said, real time, you know, like experience, like meeting someone face to face is so much better, which honestly, that's actually

01:05:26

Jennifer. One thing I'm looking forward to, cause we've known each other for quite a bit. I remember we were going back and forth even six or seven months prior to even like our episode that we did, uh, in 2019, just like finally getting going emails back and forth, but just, we're finally actually going to meet face to face, which

01:05:41

I'm actually super pumped about. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Um, so yeah, any, any kind of like last thoughts you have as you were up here.

01:05:50

And I'll just say this, this is one of the really important things to really talk about, because I don't think when you're looking, at least from our perspective, when it comes to cultists is that we can't, we don't really view, we can't view cults really from a point of neutrality.

01:06:03

Like we believe that all things are created by Christ and for Christ. So I think as heartbreaking as so many of these people's stories are people who have deconstructed or walked away from the faith is that there's not long lasting peace and fully deconstructing because eventually you're going, you have to rebuild.

01:06:22

And the scriptures do say the foolish man built their house upon the sand. And like one of the heartbreaking things I've seen, um, maybe you can give me your thoughts as you've wrapped up here, is that a lot of people who fully deconstruct, there's almost sort of this,

01:06:35

I hate to use like root of bitterness because that's still like shunning them, but they're just, it's like they want to talk, like they were legitimately hurt, abused, and they want, it's like they want atonement, like someone has to pay.

01:06:47

But if you don't really have a true advocate somewhere to truly place that on, it's just, it has to be continually like the, you see the,

01:06:55

I see that so many times in a lot of these like ex -evangelical podcasts and people who've been through like very legitimate, uh, things.

01:07:02

So that's why I think really the only place you can truly re why are like reconstructed because it says in Psalm 16, 11, like in your presence, there's fullness of joy in your right hand.

01:07:14

There's pleasures forevermore. And that's what you want to give people, give that people those true freedom because anywhere outside of that, like it's, it's, you can only have it for a little bit, like eventually, you know,

01:07:24

GK Chesterton said an open mind is like an old open mouth. Eventually it has to bite down on something.

01:07:30

Um, you know, so that's why I think something like this is so, so important. Uh, what are your guys' thoughts as we wrap up here on that?

01:07:37

Yeah, no, I agree completely. Um, L and maybe people are better.

01:07:44

Um, maybe it is justified for sure. Um, but like you said, true freedom is found in Christ and until you have a comprehension and, you know, really good view of the gospel, it's easy to fall into that mindset of someone has to pay.

01:08:03

And I was wronged in, and then that's human nature, I think. Um, but it is super important.

01:08:10

You can heal from that. Like God will walk you through that. And, um, I know Natalie and I are both here for people to reach out to, you know, to, we want to come beside people and help them walk out of that because I am testament in my own life that you can leave legalism.

01:08:27

You can leave a church that is very legalistic and binding and be free from that and still live and walk with Christ.

01:08:34

And my walk with God has improved. I mean, like I said before, I didn't have one before. So, you know,

01:08:40

I, I am testament that you can leave, you can disentangle everything and you can come out of the other side as ginger too.

01:08:52

You know, she did as well. And Natalie. Yeah. And we're now, what are your, what are your final thoughts as we wrap up here?

01:08:58

Yeah. So before I say that, I want to just drop one thing about bitterness. Since you mentioned it,

01:09:05

I just, and I want to do this because I know there are people who are listening who have been told they are so bitter and bitterness is a sin and, and they're not going to be out of sin until they just love their abusers and just like, you know, just feel really happy about them.

01:09:22

I don't even know how to explain it. But anyways, for everyone who's been gaslit like that, I just want to just quickly point out that the word bitterness in Hebrews, if you look that up in the

01:09:33

Greek, it is a hate, it's hatefulness, it's bitter hatefulness or spitefulness.

01:09:39

That is the bitterness. That's the root of bitterness in Hebrews. If you look up bitterness in a modern dictionary today, if you just Google it, it's disappointment and hurt.

01:09:46

Those are two different concepts. It is okay. If you have been spiritually abused and thrown out and rejected, if you are disappointed, if you are hurt and that kind of modern definition of bitterness, that is okay.

01:10:01

That is not a sin. The sin is that hatred and spite that can well up in our hearts if we don't turn over our disappointment and hurt to Jesus.

01:10:11

But it is okay to feel that disappointment. And if you don't let yourself grieve, you will end up worse down the road.

01:10:18

I don't mean that as any kind of scare, but it's just that trauma doesn't go away until you process it. And then just my, my closing thought would be when

01:10:28

I felt like I lost everything, literally just, you know, living out of my car and just driving away, like not even sure where I'm going to go, where I'm going to sleep.

01:10:38

I, it would have been very easy to leave the faith. Um, but I didn't have anywhere else to go.

01:10:45

You know, when I sat and thought about it, I've already looked into Buddhism and Islam and new age and these other kinds of religions and cults, and they are all legalistic.

01:10:55

The worldly religion is a religion of do, do more, do enough, do better.

01:11:01

Keep the rules, follow the list. And then maybe God will keep you. That is every other religion.

01:11:07

Christianity is the only religion that says, God so loved you that he gave himself for you, that you would have eternal life and Christianity is the only religion that is just full of this grace and love.

01:11:24

And honestly, I couldn't go to any other religion, not just because I'm so opposed to that legalistic do more and do better mindset, um, that's in every other religion, but because, you know, the, the evidence just wasn't there.

01:11:38

I would a hundred percent recommend reasonable faith and other apologetics resources, um, for anyone who wants to study, but really it's just, there's nowhere else to go.

01:11:48

And I am so, so grateful that I studied my way out instead of just throwing everything out, um, that I did disentangle because I have been able to find such a fuller, richer relationship with Christ.

01:12:02

Um, and even on the days that maybe I don't pray two hours and 24 minutes a day, um, but I feel that love of Jesus surrounding me, enveloping me with me so much richer and deeper than I ever felt when

01:12:18

I was trying to earn his love. Um, and now I understand the gospel in a way I never did before.

01:12:23

And it is life giving. No, that is very powerful. Thank you so much.

01:12:29

Um, yeah. One last time. Can you, uh, tell us the, again, the location of this conference. And so if, if what

01:12:35

Natalie said to really resonate with you, uh, she's going to be expanding on that and also Jennifer will be, will be as well to, uh, in this conference at the end of July in Simpsonville, Kentucky.

01:12:45

Give everyone just the, the, uh, details, the website where they can get it at. And, uh, as we wrap up here.

01:12:52

Bereanholiness .com slash conference. Again, Berean, B E R E A N holiness .com

01:13:00

slash conference. Uh, you can sign up there. It's going to be July 28 and 29, but don't forget to use your discount code before May 31st.

01:13:07

Yeah. The discount code is cultish and you'll get a discount. I'll be there. Uh, Andrew, uh, will be there as well too.

01:13:15

And we really look forward for all of you who can make it out here. It's, it's one of those things too, you know, being able to do this podcast on a weekly basis, as long as we have, and it's always just such a blessing and you're going to test just when we actually meet people in person who've, you know, they recognize our voices, which is always a cool thing, but it's honestly all that aside,

01:13:36

I mean, that that's, I think the real blessing is seeing the real impact that it is making. And again, it's one of our passions is to help people bring out of, get them out of the cults, but into a saving, not just a saving, but a saving and loving relationship with Jesus Christ, that's the one thing is that, man,

01:13:55

I just, I want to say like, if you are a Christian, if you're out of the cults and in Christ, like, you need to know, like you are loved.

01:14:02

You are loved by God. Like you are loved by him. Like your identity like is in Christ and you have freedom there.

01:14:10

You know, one thing is one of the things that my pastor says, we wrap up here a while back, one of the very first episodes we did on Jehovah's witness, talking about their disfellowshipping, there's something that Jeff said, uh, one of the earlier podcasts where he just said, if you've experienced, you know, this type of abuse, this type of disfellowship, you know, this type of distortion, like that wasn't

01:14:31

God to begin with, that wasn't God that was counterfeit man -made religion, like, please, the authentic is everything you've been looking for.

01:14:42

And it's a source of healing and we can't wait to help, help me have this conversation with you all at the end of, uh, at the end of July.

01:14:49

So we're looking forward to that. Uh, any other, any other last thoughts, Jennifer, anyone else as we wrap up here? Just thank you so much for having us on.

01:14:57

Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you for coming to our conference too. I should add that. We're very excited.

01:15:03

No, it's, it's a real honor. It's a real honor. I mean, it's just to be able to see everyone face to face, really looking forward to that again. brianholiness .com,

01:15:11

uh, you can check out, uh, the details of this conference, use the passcode cultish if you want to get that there's limited seating, so make sure you hurry up.

01:15:17

It's through May 31st, you get the discount. Uh, all that being said, thank you all for listening in and we will talk to you all next week on cultish where we enter into and help you all disentangle from the kingdom of the cults.