Cultish: How To Disentangle From Fundamentalism

Apologia Studios Announces the Called to Freedom Conference

Hey, what's up everyone? We are super excited to announce that we will be making our first appearance on the road in Simpsonville, Kentucky, July 28th and 29th at the called to freedom conference. If you are disentangling your faith after experience in a hyper fundamentalistic or a legalistic church group, this event is for you.

There will be panel discussions, table discussions, inspiring testimonies, all from Christians who have rebuilt their faith. And even a game night guys. It's a weekend of rebuilding theology, rebuilding community, and rebuilding faith through God's word.

So definitely check that out. Also, Jerry and I, we're going to be speaking there and we're also super excited to meet you in person. You can register for the conference today at Berean holiness .com forward slash conference that's B E R E a and holiness .com forward slash conference.

Also until May 31st, you can use the promo code cultish in all caps at checkout for $50 off the purchase price. We hope to see you there now back to the episode.

All right.

Why Legalism Creates Fear-Based Religion

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. Uh, one of the co-hosts here, uh, very, very super excited. This is kind of a follow-up to our, uh, recent episode.

We just dropped this past week, uh, about seven days ago with Ginger Nugger, really a great conversation. I know a lot of you have been really resonating with what, uh, her, both her book, what she talked about in our podcast, if you listen to some of her other interviews, uh, really excited to kind of have a follow-up conversation, really talking about disentangling, uh, how to disentangle from, uh, legalism.

So we've got a couple of people with us today joining me via zoom as always, my trusted, uh, virtual, uh, co-host, uh, super sleuth of the show, Andrew, the digital version of you. I know you're somewhere out there in Utah on the flesh, but as good as always to see, uh, you broadcasting from, uh, somewhere at a super secret, super secret location in Utah.

Good to see you, man.

Hey, good to see you too. I'm excited about today, man. We have a guest on that we had on like a couple of years ago, man. This is exciting.

Yeah.

So our first person we have with us, uh, joining us is, uh, Jennifer Brewer. Uh, it's good to have you back. It was December of 2019 that you joined us. It's good to have you back in Coltish.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

Yeah.

It doesn't seem like it's been that long though.

I know it's weird. Like 2020 did feel like seven years and it's like, and it's weird because this past weekend was like the weekend in 2020, right when everything, right before everything went crazy. Like this week was like when it started.

So I was even looking at pictures and stuff. I'm like, did all that even really happen? This is, it felt like forever ago. But anyways, I'm glad that you joined us. Uh, you're joining us and I know, so your background, just give everyone the quick cliff notes.

Uh, you had written a book that we talked about back in 2019. What was the name of the book again?

Um, the name of my book is free from legalism to grace breaking out of the United Pentecostal church.

Right.

So you just had a background really. And we, you can definitely check out that episode, just really growing up in a very legalistic mindset, you know, long skirts, long hair, not being able to wear makeup.

And every, every aspect of your womanhood was like, if I do one wrong thing, you know, God standing over you at any moment, you're going to make the, you're going to make some wrong mistake. You're going to get punished.

So a lot of real, uh, fear-based, uh, you know, teaching for sure. Um, and we also have with us, Natalie, uh, how are you doing?

Hi, it's good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah.

So this is your first time on cold just to welcome. So just tell everyone about, uh, your background and, uh, what res. Yeah. So tell us about your background where you're kind of like where, and then we talk about disentangling from legalism.

Uh, what tell, tell us about what you had to disentangle from and kind of like what, what does that, what does that mean to you?

Sure.

So I come from an independent church fellowship. So it's not technically a denomination. They actually kind of pride themselves in not being a denomination, but it is Trinitarian Pentecostal holiness.

Um, is what I grew up in. And so we had, if you're familiar with the UPC or when it's Pentecostals, we had almost the exact same set of standards. And the reason why is because basically we used to be the same group and the, the oneness group split away from the Trinitarian holiness Pentecostals.

So very, very similar. Um, so of course skirts, pants are an abomination and I work with a lot of what I would call hyper fundamentalist groups. And I find, um, a spectrum and some are saying, you know, this is just careful living or we only do it because, uh, our pastors teach this and it's like a pastor's conviction that was not that way in my denomination and my denomination.

It was very, you know, I say domination, but anyways, it was very much heaven or hell. It was the Bible teaches this pants are an abomination. And if you do this, you are not going to heaven. Most certainly.

Uh, if you've, if you've been taught the truth and you've seen the light and you walked away from it, um, you are totally backslidden. That is the culture there. Of course there are some, a few people who would deny that, but over or overall, that is the culture.

That's the belief. Um, yeah. So no jewelry, no makeup, um, no pants, no sports, of course, no alcohol. Um, anyways, I won't comment, but, uh, yeah, I could go on and on. No TV, no wedding rings, no facial hair, obviously, because that's pride.

I think we all know that. Um, yeah. And then besides that, some also had the perfectionist doctrine. So if you're familiar with instantaneous sanctification, um, that was a thing in some places, my grandfather actually, he, uh, let me know he not send in 48 years.

And he was very proud of that. Um, and there's a lot of people with that belief though. It's not everyone. And then besides that second work, there was also the third work and that's, um, more of your classical Pentecostal must speak in tongues before you receive the spirit.

Right.

Wow. Natalie, what did you guys, what did you guys believe about holidays specifically? What about Eastern stuff?

We did celebrate holidays. Now, not everyone, actually. There are people in my immediate family who do not celebrate Christmas, but for, as a group, we did have holidays.

Yeah.

Were you specific on like being King James only? Like you had to read like the King James was only that's the only version that's God's version. Every other one's an abomination or what was that?

Yeah, it was very much King James only. Um, and just throw the other Bibles in the trash. That was, that was more of the extreme that I grew up around again. There's it's a spectrum, but that's, that's a lot of what I grew up around.

How Jennifer and Natalie Connected Through Shared Experience

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Definitely check them out back to the episode. And then Jennifer and Natalie, how did you both connect? Cause you both have your separate backgrounds. We're going to be on flushing this because, but this is something that you both, you know, are doing ministry now, kind of like together with some different areas that we'll jump into in a little bit.

But how did you two initially connect?

Um, I made Natalie talk to me basically. It wasn't forced her. Um, no, actually, um, but she had mentioned something on a Facebook group and obviously we're in the same groups, you know, cause we have very similar backgrounds and we're connected to a lot of the same people.

So I kind of knew who she was ish. Um, just from being in Facebook groups together, but, um, no, she posted something and it made me like, it triggered me to say, huh, she would probably be a good person to reach out to about this idea that I have.

So I messaged her and then we ended up like FaceTiming for what, like two or three hours, Natalie, the first time we talked, cause we're like, Oh my gosh, we have so much in common.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, that's, that's how we ended up talking and getting together.

Okay. Yeah.

And speaking of like having so much in common, this is what I really want to flush out is that, uh, you know, we are, you're coming, we're having you on just in wake of the ginger episode that just dropped.

Like if you just look at our comment section, um, you know, Allie best stuck his comment section. It's not just Bill Gothard and the ATI and that whole group. It's people from like your background and Natalie, your background.

And there's so many like similar backgrounds. Like how many people do you think, I don't know, just like North America in general have, have like backgrounds in this. I mean, you you're, you've had an active ministry and you've had people Jennifer buy your book from like all over the world.

Like, like how many people do you think are, have been affected by these movements of just this very like legalism?

Yeah.

I, Natalie might have a better idea. I know for my book, um, which was self-published, I had no idea anyone was ever going to buy it. Like I didn't really write it for that. I wrote it for me, but that being said, without me even really promoting it, it's has sold thousands and yeah, all around the world.

So it's crazy that there are so many people that have the same experience. And I've gotten so many emails and messages from people nonstop, even from my episodes on cultish from 2019 and 2020, like people still reach out to me about that and it's just mind blowing to me because when you're going through that, you feel very isolated.

Like there's not, you don't have any community and there's not anybody else around to talk to, or, you know, to kind of guide you through those feelings. Um, but it turns out there, there are a lot of people.

Yeah.

And maybe we could talk about this with, uh, so you listened to the podcast that Ginger was on with us and you've, you've read, you both have read her book.

I sure did.

Yeah.

What did you, what, what struck, what resonated with you just with her story? And how do you see that? How do you feel like that's similar to it? Like, how do you resonate with her experience? Just some initial ideas.

My initial thought was when I was listening to the episode, she was talking about how, um, and she mentioned this in her book too, how she viewed God as more like a tyrant and not a loving father. And that completely describes how my relationship with God was.

And I, and I say relationship, and I don't think I had one honestly, because I had no concept of who God actually was. And so the God that I thought I had a relationship with isn't, he wasn't even God, or that wasn't even the true God, if that makes any sense.

Um, so since coming out of that and discovering grace and discovering the cross, even like, that's something that was really looked over a lot in UPC churches, um, I, I've just discovered like how God is a loving father and merciful and gracious toward us.

And he's not like sitting up there with an anvil ready to just drop us at any second. That was my big takeaway.

Superstition, Hair, and the Fear of Losing the Holy Spirit

Yeah.

What about you, Natalie?

Yeah.

So from Ginger specifically, there, there's a lot I resonated with. Um, one is superstition, that superstition element of, I don't know if you can even call it teaching, but enforcing beliefs basically.

Um, so she gave like the houseplants example and a few others. So one that comes to me is when I was sitting in a youth camp, I believe it was a youth camp growing up. So I was young, I was impressionable.

And I think that's why this memory lives with me. Um, but the, the preacher was very animated and dynamic and he was telling a story like it was a ghost story. And it was a story of two girls, just like me, who thought that they could get by with trimming their hair.

And so they sat in the seat and it's like, you know, very dramatic telling I'm trying to skip through it, but they, you know, they sat in the seat to get their, their hair trimmed. And, uh, the barber started to trim their hair.

And as he trimmed the Holy spirit left them as a physical, I believe it was a physical dove. Like they actually saw something and they started to scream and cry out, God, come back, come back, come back.

But the Holy spirit had already, already, uh, lifted. Um, and the implication being that they were lost and they were just crying, but they'd like cross the bloodline. Um, so now, now they're, you know, they've lost God and they're just, it was such a dramatic, scary story.

And of course, all of this to teach us girls that don't trim your hair. Don't even bite it. Don't get the nail clippers out. Um, don't burn it.

It was like, okay, those are actual things that you think about doing and you're in that spot.

Well, it's weird too. Cause you think of that, it's almost like a real life Tom and Jerry cartoon where it's like, you know, the goat, like some, like the ghost is trying to leave you and you're like hanging on to it or something.

Um, but in all seriousness, it's like being like in that fear base. Like I shared in the podcast is that, um, like I went to a couple of Bill Gothard seminars as a kid and I was like secretly listening to Van Halen and a couple other like things in my Walkman.

And after hearing Bill Gothard segment of rock and roll, I was terrified, like out of my mind, like I hid my Walkman and like in the back of my desk for like five weeks and I wouldn't even touch any of it.

Um, but even, I remember like also what resonated just jumping back even to prior to your episode, Jennifer, when you have the two, our two, uh, Canadian homies, uh, Andrew James Levesque and, uh, Jeff Solian is that I remember there is a moment we had really, our podcast really had just started and there's a moment where I think one of them said something about, I want to see, he's like, it was like, he went from just being interviewed to kind of going into pastoral mode.

And he said something to the extent of, um, like you're like any woman who's been affected by the UPC, like I want to say like your, your beauty, your uniqueness or value worth is not judged by the length of your skirt or the length of your hair.

And I was like trying to understand, and I could tell there's so much emotion gravitas coming with that. I was trying to say, okay, what is, what's going on here? And I didn't really push into that, but I remember there were people that were commenting when we dropped the podcast and there were like women who like, when they heard that moment, like they were like weeping, like they, it was like something they heard.

It was like, oh my gosh, you know? So it just goes to show that there's so much gravitas that like comes with this conversation as a whole. Um, Andrew, what are your thoughts here, man?

Yeah.

I remember in your book, uh, Jennifer, that that was like a really moving part for me talking about when you went to go get your haircut. Like I'll never forget that when I was reading the book, even when we talked about it in the podcast.

And, um, I'm wondering too, uh, Natalie, maybe Jennifer, if you can share, uh, your story first, um, just to bring our listeners into your world about that superstition, right. Before getting your haircut and then after getting, uh, your haircut and the, like, like the freedom or release and Natalie, I'm wondering if you experienced something like that as well.

Yeah.

Um, that was a pivotal moment for me, for sure, because my hair hadn't been cut since my mom joined the UPC when I was eight, so it had been years. Um, my hair was gross. It was, it's, it was grown out.

It was damaged. It was thin. So my stepsister actually was in town from California at the time and my mom wasn't home. And so my stepsister actually used to, um, well, she went to beauty school really young, so she used to do that.

So I convinced her to cut my hair in my mom's kitchen. And, um, she was very reluctant at first cause she knew like how difficult it was going to be for me to process that. Cause I did not want to go to just like a salon and do that.

Because for me, I, I assumed I was going to cry. I assumed it was going to be like this big emotional event for me. And it was, but in a completely different way than what I thought, like I thought I was going to be upset.

I thought maybe, you know, cause. And I, I don't know if Natalie, the holiness movement teaches, we briefly talked about this the other day about protection, um, and how the woman's hair was protecting her family basically.

And, um, I thought, you know, my husband's going to leave, my kids are going to get run over by a bus. You know, all of this bad stuff is going to happen to me because I'm cutting my hair. But it was crazy because the exact opposite thing happened.

So we're sitting in my mom's kitchen and my sister cut my hair and she only cut a few inches off, which is nothing when your hair is super long. Um, but I felt like just a physical burden released for me.

It was like, it was just hair. But for me, that was like freedom. It's, it's, it's unexplainable. Really? I felt like I could breathe. I felt like this is new life, you know? And, um, even my daughter had the same, same experience.

I've spoken to many people and even went to the salon with people, you know, to get their haircut for the first time. And I know a lot of people have that same experience and it's just, it's crazy because you think why it's just a haircut, you know, looking in on it.

I'm sure it's like what in the world, but being in that position and always being taught with fear about, you know, this and this and this are going to happen to you if you, if you cut your hair or burn your hair, as Natalie said.

Um, it was, it was life changing.

Disentangling by Studying Scripture Instead of Throwing Faith Away

Yeah.

And Natalie, what about you? I appreciate you saying that, Jennifer. What about you, Natalie? Did you have, what about times with you? Like with your background, your upbringing, I'm sure there's a lot we could, we could have probably a whole podcast just, you know, talking about your story, but just specifically, uh, areas in which you kind of like had to disentangle was at a moment where you like, you had to cut your, it was like cutting your hair or was it, you know, wearing something like a t-shirt that showed both of your forearms or what was it, what was it like on your end?

Like the very kind of like that moment for you?

You know, I, I don't know if my answer is what exactly you're looking for, but I'm just going to share it.

Sure.

Um, so for me, when it comes to that freedom moment, that weight off my chest moment, I have a little bit of a different story, um, from say Jennifer, cause with, with you, Jennifer, you talk about how you wanted to cut your hair.

Um, I literally didn't care and sorry to disappoint my hair's never been cut. Cause I just, I just don't care. And it's, it's for no biblical reason. Um, so in standards, I followed the standards for eight years after I already.

Um, believed that they were not biblical, but I did them because I love the holiness people. It was my whole world. It's a very exclusive culture. Um, I really didn't have Christian connections outside of it.

And also, you know, I don't mean to sound, um, like I'm something cause even back then I knew I wasn't, but there was this part of me that wanted to rescue the holiness movement. Um, because I saw the problems and I saw the lack of love and I saw the lack of outreach and the lack of Bible study and all these different problems.

And I thought, you know, I'm going to go to their holiness Pentecostal Bible school, and I'm going to, you know, be educated in their schools and then come to, to help them. Anyway. So me staying in the movement was all about me loving the people and really wanting to help the people.

Um, so for me, I think my freedom moment was when I was just a hundred percent real with them about what I actually believed, um, because I'd kept that to myself for eight years. And even though I would have said I kept it to myself out of respect or to keep the peace or whatever, it came down to people pleasing and it came down to fear of people.

And it, it was so terrifying to just be a hundred percent authentic. This is what I believe the Bible says. I'm happy to follow holiness standards, but this is what I believe the Bible says, and I can't teach anything else.

Um, that was terrifying. And the consequences were world shattering, but it was off my chest and that I just felt so free and so free to follow Christ in a way I never had before.

What would be a couple of those things that you feel like you really had to share that you're trying to sort of hold within you to keep the peace, but it sounds like you're being convicted about, could you give some examples of that?

Yeah.

Well, a lot of it was about standards, especially, um, initially, like are the, one of the first ones that I. Talk to my spiritual mentors and leaders about was, Hey, I don't think it's an abomination for women to wear pants.

Like it was really that, um, it was really that simple.

Yeah.

And what, what would be assuming you said, you know, the consequence of real life shattering? What's what, what, what was that like for you?

Can you.

Yeah, sure. So basically holiness was my world. Um, and I lost that whole world. It was, it was my future. I was going to be a holiness missionary. I'd already, you know, trained in their school. Um, I, so all my mission support was from holiness.

Um, I was, so after I, after word got out that I did not believe the holiness standards were biblical. Um, the mission, like people that I had worked with closely and looked up to and who had been my mentor without ever reaching out to me, they started reaching out to close friends of mine and telling them to disassociate themselves from me that I was backslidden into disassociate, even though they never talked, you know, these authorities never talked to me.

Um, there were other authorities, you know, people in my life, people who I cared about, who I'd talked to, looked up to, you know, worked with whatever. Um, who literally just blocked my number. Like they were just like, we're done with you.

Not because of a fight, not because of this, that, and the other, just we're done with you.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, so my, my number block, my name being, um, you know, defamed and just total lies being made up about me from ministers, um, making up lies about financial, you know, scandal or whatever that I have bank records to prove this is ridiculous.

This never happened, but publishing it. Um, so yeah. And one of the, one of the more dramatic things in my life was I was actually interning at a church when I first shared with someone, Hey, I don't think this is biblical and they're like, okay, well you have a week and a half to get out.

So I not only, um, I almost lost my college degree. That's another story, but I did lose where I was living. Um, and so I was literally living out of my car and the holiness friends that I would have stayed with before.

Cause remember all my friends are holiness. They literally told me you can't stay at our houses anymore. And then that turned into, you can't visit us anymore. Um, I even had, there was someone who told me, you know, I come from a broken home.

So when someone told me you're like a daughter to us, that meant so much, um, so much, I love those people so much. And I still do. But after I was open about my beliefs about holiness standards, they told me to never visit them again.

So that, I mean, I really lost my whole community.

So it's almost like you had to revisit that abandonment trauma, like all over again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, except it was everyone is what it felt like.

The Difference Between Love and Cutting People Off

Yeah.

Go ahead, Andrew.

Yeah.

It makes me think like, um, just pulling up, uh, open my Bible here in first Corinthians 13, it says, if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I become a noisy gong or a glinging symbol.

Uh, you can go on and on, but this section of scripture is really about love. Right? And when I think about holiness and sanctification, I also think about a bounding and love, grace, and mercy. Like where's the disconnect between the holiness standard and then the lack of love for, uh, the people who may be convicted of something different than what these people do in the holiness standard.

What I don't know. It's, it's hard for me to understand. How do they navigate passages like first Corinthians 13? You know, how does that work?

Um, I think they, they think that it's love. Um, I think that they, if I'm trying to watch what I say here, I really think that they think telling someone they're wrong and cutting them off is love because for them, that's how they view God.

And that's how they think God would, would handle it and treat them. And for them, like, okay, you don't agree with me anymore. You don't agree with these standards. Then I'm just going to not talk to you.

And I think it's one it's based out of fear because they're afraid that you're going to rub off on them, um, or, you know, whatever, but two, I honestly feel like they're, they think they're doing it out of love and they read those chapters and I think they think that that applies to them, but I think the disconnect happens when the word holiness is used, not to describe God or describe his righteousness, but to describe your outward standards.

Yeah.

I'll just add to that. Some of the people who cut me off when they cut me off, there was literally just to give one example. There was someone who I used to be so close to, at least I thought I was so close to this person.

And I noticed afterwards, they just kept distancing themselves. I would want to visit, there'd be excuses, et cetera. And I was just getting a really bad feeling that I was losing this person. And finally they texted me and they're like, you know, I prayed about it and I can't, I can't visit you.

And I just said, Hey, is this because are you cutting me off? Are we still friends? And they just texted back. I love you. And so that, and that is, that was repeated in other relationships as well. Basically when I'm just like, Hey, you know, do we still, can we still get together?

Can we still be friends? And they just be like, I love you. But those were the words that they used to cut me off. And for some people, it was like my last text that I heard from them. And so honestly, to be vulnerable, I, I don't like the words.

I love you, especially coming from certain people because they trigger those memories of being cut off because those words were used to cut me off.

Modesty, Control, and the Fruit of the Spirit

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Yeah.

Oh, there's, there's, I appreciate you sharing that again. There's just so much gravitas to what you're saying. Another example too. And I think this is something that Ginger talked a lot about in her book, and this is be similar to your backgrounds.

Maybe we can just touch on this for a little bit. And this is also just, this is also not for the women. It's also for the men when it comes to like modesty and apparel. Like I've seen videos of certain fundamentalists who talk about how having a beard, you know, is an abomination that keep me even having what I have random, what he has.

You know, it's just, I just do it because I think my chin looks hideous. Even though, even though I am in the image of God, I prefer to have a beard versus a bare chin. But anyways yeah, a lot of the way that people, a lot of it, like the way that people dress or even the, you know, the modesty codes, you know, the Bible does talk about modesty, but there's a specific way it comes out of how you dress and how you make your appearance comes out of like your, your love for God and your desire to please him, not this over based fear that if I use one part of my you know, if I show just a little bit of my skin guy, either God's going to be mad at me or all of a sudden, like all the men walk around or just raging with lust.

And if you just do one thing, you're going to make all these men stumble, which will be your fault, which then goes into a lot of distorted ways about how even abuse is perpetuated, but also handled when that church.

Yeah.

Good.

Do you want to just give me your thoughts or let's, let's elaborate on that a little bit.

You got something Natalie?

Yeah.

So we're talking about just to reframe your question and make sure I understand the abuse that's perpetuated through the standards.

Well, no, I would just say, no, I think what I was talking about is I, could you give us some, just, could you give some examples about when you, when you look at like modesty, ginger Duggar talked about that in her book about how she saw it, the way that they're supposed to dress is based off of, you know, fear of God.

Um, and then it, and this is also would be the case for the men, but you know, in Jennifer's experience, you know, you would have to address a certain way, being like modest wise, but it's all, it's, it's kind of, it's a distorted version off of biblical modesty, maybe just, just elaborate that for me, like your experience or what you've kind of seen with Jennifer story, also a ginger, like how, how do you resonate with that?

Yeah, so it's, yeah, it is, it is distorted for sure. Um, it's very much a checklist. Um, and this is something, this is something I really want to communicate to mainstream Christianity is that these standards, they are not, they are not just a quaint choices that people make, because, and I emphasize this over and over and over again on Berean holiness, that there is nothing wrong with freely choosing to wear the floor length skirts or long sleeves or being clean shaven, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

So what, so holiness standards, they are just the surface. They're just the tip of the iceberg and they are used in these groups. Um, and that's really important to understand. And that's why they're the core.