60 - Marburg Colloquy

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:00

This will probably be the last church history lesson for a little while I leave on Wednesday, and I I didn't

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Do a real good job the whoever does my schedule needs to be fired, but unfortunately, that's me

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I Figured out that starting Wednesday For the next two and a half months,

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I will be home for two and a half weeks in two and a half months, so two 20 -day trips and Then I'm gonna be teaching over at the master's seminary

00:42

For a week and then I've got an engagement in Dallas the next day, so I'm actually gonna be driving real early in the morning

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Home swapping out luggage and catching a flight for Dallas, it's good good timing on my part so anyways

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We're starting to be taking a little break for a while from church history, but don't do not fear we shall still

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Persevere Lord willing and and get it get it done. We are still with brother

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Luther and there is Some still some important things to to discuss last week we

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Looked at the issue of Luther and his views of the

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Jews The the two Luther's in fact I forgot to mention it last week, but if you

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Look on YouTube it hasn't been taken down yet. I'm sure it will be in the not -too -distant future

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Everything I've done will eventually be erased from from YouTube's Politically correct memory, but it's still up there at the moment

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The presentation I made at a conference last November in Washington DC On the two

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Luther's and we talked a little bit so you could I expanded upon that I read the quotes that I read last week from Luther in regards to his views on the

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Jews and his context and the history of all of that and we talked about Johann Eck and Martin Bucer and and the fact there were some of the

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Reformers who broke away from that perspective and and we're calling for for tolerance and evangelism and so on so forth, but Including primarily

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Oseander, but That Sort of introduced us to the issues again the impact of sacralism

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The state church upon Luther and all the Reformers and we talked about Calvin Calvin still a sacralist

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He's still a magisterial Reformer And so when we eventually get around to Cervetus it's all going to be you know coming back to us again

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There's this issue of the the state church But we saw the two periods in Luther's life, and so you've got

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Luther number 1 1510 to 1525 and you got Luther number 2 1525 onwards it's not that all of his beliefs change or something.

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It's not like he would have Being that close Noticed any major change, but from a historical perspective we can see

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A hardening and and let's just be honest What you start seeing is

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Well, there's a guy on Twitter called church curmudgeon and He's he's a funny guy.

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He's he's he's a comic he makes funny comments especially about youth leaders and music leaders and things like that that are that are normally hilarious, but When we talk about a curmudgeon

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Well Luther becomes a theological curmudgeon in essence

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A lot of people would would basically say that there was a Hardening of his demeanor shall we say starting after the peasants revolt

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And and it sort of continues on it doesn't mean he'd be you know Became this a terrible horrible nasty person, but there was a

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I don't know a hardening of his of his Demeanor toward toward others and we can see some of this at one of the most important Events because like I say, you know, it's funny

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I was looking at my church history notes and a lot of these church history notes came from when I took church history

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I had an excellent professor and I took it twice not because I failed the first time I got an A the first time

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I Audited it the second time because you could do that. I enjoyed it so much the first time and I look at my notes and like most

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Luther biographies it pretty much focuses on the

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Beginning of Luther's life and and up through about 1530 and then those last 16 years he dies in 1546 as I mentioned isolated

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Just Sort of cursory there's there's just there's just not a whole lot to talk about and I Mean, I'm sure

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Luther scholars that just you know live Luther can dig into that and find some stuff but as far as stuff that really has an impact on the entire church, it's just sort of like slowly fading away and But the one exception after 1525 to this

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You know, he's still writing and things like that, but the the big issue is called the

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Big events called the Marburg colloquy the Marburg colloquy which takes place between the first and fourth of October in 1529 and This had been brought about Remember we had the

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Diet of Worms remember the Diet of Worms the diet is the meeting of the electors of the

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Holy Roman Empire and You Had in 1526 as I recall a diet at spire spire one where the

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Lutheran Electors outnumbered the Catholic electors and hence a measure of freedom had been

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Granted in matters of worship within the Holy Roman Empire in lands that had

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Electors that desired to have that Reformation freedom well a couple years later you have spire to and this time

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Charles arranges things that he has the majority amongst the Roman Catholics and so the

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Edict of Worms is reaffirmed the condemnation of Luther and those freedoms are withdrawn and So There was in the

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Legal Setup of It's not a constitution, but the documents

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By which the Holy Roman Empire functioned and by which people were elected There was a an option for a minority group of electors to protest the action of the majority

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So there's a formal process whereby a minority of electors could choose to utilize this and to protest the actions of the diet and So this is what they did at spire to they protested against the withdrawal of the freedoms that spire one had given them and they protested against the reaffirmation of the

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Edict of Worms back in 1521 that condemned Luther and So as a result

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That's where the term Protestant came from is they were the ones protesting the actions of the majority at the diet of spire to Where Charles sort of took over and and Made sure that he had the majority this time and Dealt with the politics in that way.

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So that's where the term came from. And so it's it's amazing to me that for example,

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I remember I don't remember what year it was, but I was I was doing a debate at Trinity College in Dublin and Afterwards it was it was a

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Muslim and Afterwards this Irishman, you know comes up to me and says would you call yourself a

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Protestant? and It's it's amazing what that means there in comparison to where it

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What it would mean over here And all the distinctions that we would make in regards to that and what it meant historically what it came to mean historically all the different groups that fall under that rubric, but It really was a political term at the at the time that had theological overtones because it was a state church and of course what they're they're fighting with is

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How can you have a state that has more than one church? and The you know,

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Holy Roman Empire Not exactly unbiased along those lines and so there's there's where it comes from and so Philip of Hesse Was a what we would call

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Protestant leader a Protestant Politician and he recognized that if this reformation movement was going to continue

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That it would require the men who were leading it to get together and to present a united front a divided

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Protestant movement would be easier for its enemies to pick off than a unified one and By 1529, you know, we'll go back and pick these guys up, but you've got

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Ulrich Zwingli You've got Martin Bucer Bucer is in Strasbourg Zwingli is in Zurich and Zwingli has been active

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He would say before Luther but most people would say he was just a little bit after Luther but certainly from 1519 so at least 10 years, okay, and We'll go back and look at Zwingli if you watch

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The Radicals you you are introduced to Zwingli Luther doesn't even appear in the

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Radicals, but Zwingli does and Zwingli has much more interaction with the early

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Anabaptist leaders Than than Luther would and so The Zwingli and Luther, you know

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Bucer is in Strasbourg Bucer is important but Bucer is somewhat retiring in the sense of his

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His personality is not nearly as strong as Zwingli and and Luther both of whom are very strong personalities, but in slightly different ways

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Zwingli For example is a incredibly talented musician as was Luther but not as talented as Zwingli and Was for example

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Zwingli was considerably better trained in Hebrew than Luther was

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Luther had to depend a lot on Melanchthon and and others at the University For the translation of the

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Old Testament for example into into German so anyway Bucer is more of a retiring

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Personality so he's not as as well known

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But Strasbourg is a very very important Reformed city at this point in in time and again you see

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Bucer in the Radicals as well if you watch the film You'll see that at one point

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Michael Sattler goes and he meets with Martin Bucer and And again the issue where at one it's interesting in the film at one point

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Bucer pushes the The cup away from him. We can't have fellowship with you.

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What was it about? sacralism It was about whether Michael Sattler could pick up arms and fight against the the

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Turks and There is a deep pacifist strain in Sattler's theology and so Can't do it.

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It goes back to the state church issue again And so you see that presented in in the film if you haven't had a chance to see it

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But I've been telling you to watch it now for a few months, so I can sort of assume anyway

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So there has been already at this point interaction between Zwingli and Luther And Well, I think

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I told you but I'll if I didn't I'll tell you now last July I was

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You know looking forward to going to Germany on the Luther tour

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Which we did in in September and so I was doing preparation I was reading books and stuff like that read a lot of books in preparation for that that trip and One of the books that I read was the audio version of Luther's table talk and So, you know,

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I'm Riding up what's called Juniper Pass outside of Evergreen in Colorado.

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It's It's a road. I've been up many many times now and it's beautiful.

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It starts at 7 ,500 feet It goes up to 11 ,100 up to a place called Echo Lake. Oh if you ever get up there, it's gorgeous

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Just one of my favorite favorite places on the planet anyway,

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I'm riding along listening to Luther and I had been listening on the drive up and stuff.

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And so now I was continuing on as I'm riding and and That he had just just gone through this really

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I was thinking to myself. Wow, that is so pastoral That is so relevant still today.

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I mean, it's just such good stuff I'm gonna have to remember where this was and and you know

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Maybe I'll comment on a dividing line or something like that. And then the next section starts and I'll never forget.

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I remember which direction I was that the road does this number a bunch? So I don't remember exactly which one of those it was but I remember which of the two directions it was

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That I hear in my my earphones. Well not earphones, but bone conduction headphones.

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I hear The electronic voice reading

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Luther Saying there is no hope for Zwinglius There is no hope for Zwinglius and I was just like Did I just hear that?

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I you know, I said that my I've got one of those little teeny tiny iPods it's got the little 30 -second go back thing, you know, did

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I hear that, you know, and so I Hit it and there is no hope for Zwinglius so right here in Luther's writings

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Zwingli that there's no hope for him. He's not a Christian. He's not saved That the term that he's going to use well is is he's of a different spirit and You go

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Wow, you know, what did they have Trinitarian? Controversies did they disagree over how justification takes place, you know, what's what's the story here and It had nothing to do with any of that There were really strong feelings between the

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Swiss reformers and the German reformers and That was part of it as well to be honest with you because they're the

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Swiss and the Germans Didn't necessarily get along all that. Well all the time, you know

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Swiss German and German German are very different Swiss German is They only they only have two tenses.

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That's what they told me when I was in Zurich. They only have two tenses It's just a I tried listening to it.

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It's like sounds familiar, but I don't have a clue what you're talking about It's it's very very different my friends who live there when

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I stayed in Zurich The guy stayed with who heads up the the school there

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I was teaching is from California He's a surfer dude. And so he speaks obviously,

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California English but he speaks both German and Swiss German And so he was trying to describe to me what the what the differences are and it's like wow very very different so There were there were other things

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I think behind this but there had been some pretty strong words Exchanged between Both sides and Philip of Hesse is like guys

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We can we can either stand together or hang separately we need to present to Charles a united Orthodox Statement of faith we need to we need to write a statement of faith on the things we can agree on and so they

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Traveled he invited them and provided for them to come to meet in Marburg and it's a it's a beautiful place

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Let me see here Yeah Here is

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Here is the room at the castle where they where they met and Fairly large room and As as Luther traveled there he sort of traveled shall we say in style and He was lauded

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By the by the people as he's coming there as a hero Bootser is in attendance.

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So Colin Patias Melanchthon Zwingli, it's it's it's a pretty

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Good representation of the Continental Reformers Bootser had some connections in over in in England as well, but primarily the

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Continental Reformers Zwingli arrives significantly more quietly

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And is what we see in Marburg What we see at Marburg As I've read on it

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As I especially read on it after visiting Marburg itself in the castle

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Zwingli comes off a whole lot better than Luther does They Come together to ostensibly

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Write a 15 -point Statement of faith and so they gather together and The you've got a

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Colin Patias. You've got Bootser. You've got Melanchthon. You've got Luther. You've got Zwingli Bootser had

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Entered into the Reformation having heard Luther at Heidelberg What 11 years earlier so Luther was really his hero

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But in listening to the presentations and discussions during the colloquy He is convinced of Zwingli's position.

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Well, what was the primary difference? Well, like I said, you know historians Look back on the

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Marburg colloquy Roman Catholic Apologists and historians look back upon the

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Marburg colloquy as the great example of why Protestantism can't work Sola Scriptura can't work and Marburg proves it

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Here you've got a bunch of guys saying we need to go the Bible in the Bible alone And they cannot agree on a basic statement of faith.

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So from their perspective, that's what Marburg is it's a colossal failure and That demonstrates that Sola Scriptura cannot cannot function the reality is

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That they agreed on 14 out of 15 points and I can guarantee you

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You look at modern Roman Catholicism. You look at Boston College or something like that and They wouldn't agree on one out of 15 points with a

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Pope from only a hundred years ago. I really wouldn't that's how wildly diverse

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Are the theological views that are allowed and even fostered by the current

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Pope within Roman Catholicism But 14 out of 15 points so Trinity deity of Christ Scriptures resurrection justification sanctification 14 out of 15

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They agree to that's a lot And as one individual pointed out years ago, and I think it's a appropriate thing very often when

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Rome tries to Present the need for her ultimate authority what she does is she tricks us into allowing her to compare apples and oranges

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She says look at Look at us Roman Catholics. We are so United with one another and you

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Protestants 32 ,000 denominations, there aren't 32 ,000 nominations, but that's what they'll say

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And you're all divided and you're all fractured and y 'all can't get along and see that's why you need the Pope and it's been a

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Very effective argument. They've gotten a lot of people to to buy that But they're comparing apples and oranges

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They're comparing groups that say the Bible alone to just themselves

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What they should do is compare people to say the Bible alone to people say the Bible plus something else outside the

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Bible well, that also creates a fascinating group of Religious movements including

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Roman Catholics and Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses and a bunch of others who don't agree on anything

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Even on God they'd have zero out of 15 with solo scripture you get 14 out of 15

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Might tell you a little something but they don't ever do it that way. They they're they're like, no, it's just it's just us We're the only ones is like well, okay, whatever

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What was number 15, well, you all probably know it was the Lord's Supper and It was the nature of the

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Lord's Supper at light. It's gonna drive me insane. It's probably driving everybody sitting underneath it and saying to Uh -oh the electrician rises

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Who himself was sitting under a light that's not working either so we will now turn all the lights off and we will be in the dark and that's that's

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It's the front one. There we go. Oh Well, okay we could do it that way that's not what

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I meant actually I Was just simply saying it just sort of looks like that it like it's possessed or something

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Ballast issue. Yes.

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Well, anyway, I was just noticing it. It's it's okay. We Brother Cardale needs to be able to write his his notes

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And so as long as it stays dead then as long as it stays in the dark, then we're then we're good

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So we're at least it's balanced As it's as it's going back. Anyway, 20 years from now.

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Someone's gonna be listening as well. They had ballast issues at PRVC and May of 2018 anyway

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Of the the topic of course was the Lord's Supper and the fact that Zwingli Had come to the conclusion

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Early on in the Swiss Reformation that the

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Supper was a what would be called the memorialist view.

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It is a memorial And it is a memorial only

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There is no Alteration of anything This is very strictly to be taken in a symbolic sense when

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Jesus says this is my body he is doing this during the course of the of the

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Passover meal where you know, they just had the Passover meal where everything had symbolism everything on the table

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Symbolized something in the history of the people of Israel and so it would have been understood that way by the

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Apostles so on and so forth Luther had abandoned transubstantiation

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Luther did not believe that the elements are Transubstantiated through sacramental authority

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When the priest says hocus corpus, ma 'am So he had abandoned he had recognized that the idea of transubstantiation itself was a

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Much later development the term itself doesn't appear for a thousand years after the birth of Christ It's based upon Aristotelian categories of accidents and substance and so on and so forth and so he had abandoned it.

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However You know when when we look back and we compare someone like a

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Luther and a Calvin Calvin is a systematizer. He's a systematic theologian he wants to Handle truth in such a way that it can be examined in its

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Broadly or up close so on and so forth Luther was more of a theologian of the heart He wasn't nearly as concerned about the concept of consistency and so even to this day

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Luther one of the absolute favorite terms Amongst Lutheran theologians, especially when you have dialogue with them between Calvinists and Lutherans even to this day is the term mystery

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It's a mystery. It's a mystery. So I'll say it's a and it's not a but a hey, it's a mystery and They're really, you know, once once you play the mystery card it's like we're done because there really isn't anything more to say one side is has entered into mystery and there's no debating in mystery and A lot of that went back to Melancthon more than to Luther But some of it did go back to Luther and Luther had for example

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When it came to the issue of baptism Both Zwingli and Luther had kept it but kept infant baptism, but for different reasons the magistrates in Zurich had demanded that he do so it was very plain that in the early 1520s

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He was playing with the idea of abandoning infant baptism because his exegesis did not give it to him in the

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New Testament and the early Anabaptist leaders who had been his students

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Reminded him in debate. Hugh agreed with us on this initially and Then when the magistrates said no now all of a sudden you're changing your tune.

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You've been inconsistent We're the ones being consistent with what you taught us that got them banished or drowned so He had certainly

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Come to that conclusion on his own Luther Justification by faith and Yet some concept of infant regeneration.

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How do you put those together? Well, you come up with the idea of infantile faith that the that the faith that a child shows toward its parents even in towards Mother in reaching for the breast is is infantile faith.

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So faith proceeding resulting in justification No, you can't put those together but that's what

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Luther did and so when it came to the supper The Terminology has been used in some circles is called con

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Substantiation how many Lutherans hate that that's not we believe it's not we believe in others will say well Yeah, it sort of is what we believe in then they have arguments with each other.

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I will leave that to them but Con substantiation is based upon a particularly unique Lutheran idea of the ubiquity of the body of Christ That the body of Christ is ubiquitous that in Lutheran theology some of the attributes of the divine are

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Transferred to the human in Christ. Now, this is troubling to me This is this is one of the reason there aren't too many

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Lutheran apologists to be perfectly honest with Not only has Lutheranism as a general whole gone extremely liberal as you see in the

31:20

ELCA, but there's other reasons There are some but this is difficult there's there's one that I can know

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I can think of today and this is not a subject that I've ever heard him addressed, but the idea of the communication of some divine

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Attributes to the human nature of Christ so that his body becomes ubiquitous it is omnipresent and so you can say that Christ's body is is around under above The elements and so you are partaking of Christ's body because his body is ubiquitous in the

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Lord's Supper So it is the body of Christ it doesn't just represent the body of Christ No, so it's ubiquitous but not omnipresent mystery mystery

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You're you're it's specifically in the supper and it's the specific thing commanded by God and therefore

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It's only relevant at that particular point in time. Does that make sense? No, it doesn't but it's it's mystery and once you once you play the mystery card, you don't have to worry about things like that It's just you just you just move on from it so no, it doesn't make sense, but anyway

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So At the now there had already been back and forth and When Luther was invited

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Marburg and was told that Zwingli was going to come initially said I ain't going to meet that man

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I'm not gonna be in the same room with that man but Philip of Hesse really, you know please please please and so all the

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All that I've read would indicate that when they arrive Zwingli is very gentlemanly and and kind toward Luther very

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Deferential toward him and Luther doesn't even want to shake Zwingli's hand. He is he is not

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Gentlemanly or brotherly toward him as Each side gives their presentations

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Luther is is given the opportunity to give his His view on each of the points and like I said, they agreed on 14 out of 15 pretty early on But once they get to that 15th swing

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Luther gives his presentation then Zwingli gets up and Vast majority of the written witnesses say that he just knocked it out of the park

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He quoted early church fathers. He made very strong biblical argumentation not only against transubstantiation, but against Luther's view without Skewering him.

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He was very careful in how he did it, but he very strongly defend his business. Like I said Bootser is like Zwingli takes his position after that at that point in time

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There is a famous there is a painting That is in The In the castle and It's it's really fascinating because you you've got

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Bootser and Melanchthon and Bootser down here. They're talking Bootser. Melanchthon has his

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Greek New Testament open But over here, you've got Zwingli and then you've got

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Luther and and just the way that Luther is standing with his arm back and and He's he's trying to you know

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Zwingli has his arm extended Luther has his arm back. I'm not going to touch you has this look on his face, but the most important thing is he's pointing to the table and on the table

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I Zoomed in when I took the picture of the painting on the the table is written on the tablecloth in shock in Greek esti esti is and so the

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Story is and it comes down to us in different forms the story is that Where there's a tablecloth there, whatever

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Luther writes on the table in front of everyone Is or Hawkeyes corpus, ma 'am.

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This is my body and he just Is no matter what you say, this is this is this is and what's you know?

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That's like that's like arguing with people on Twitter, I mean, you know, and it just really is it's just it's just That's all that's all that was what he was reduced to was pointing to that on the table is is is you can't get around this it just is and And it's not like Zwingli didn't have an answer for that He gave all sorts of places where where Jesus, you know said

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I am the same verb you know, I am the vine I am the door and it goes through all of them and and Luther's like he's just absolutely obdurate and So they're stuck and Philip of Hesse is going guys 14 out of 15

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We're we're there and so they actually write up a document and then they just honestly say we cannot agree on this this last point and as You know, so Philip of Hesse is like but all right

36:59

But what about our view of one another what what do we say and and Zwingli again is

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I Am I am open to being corrected? I I honor brother Luther and God's work in his life and I accept him as my brother and that's where Luther Says before them all

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You are of another spirit You are of another spirit he will not

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Identify Zwingli Let alone as a fellow Reformation leader, but you're of another spirit.

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He won't have fellowship with him and That is where it ends. That's that that's

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That's how it broke up October 4th So what we what we see

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Luther comes across as a rather curmudgeonly fellow at Marburg and he loses some support as a result

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There is a noticeable realignment Amongst some of these men because they're you know, there are others that were there

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Casper Hedio Yohannes Brent's justice Jonas I mentioned

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Ocampos Andreas Osiander Who later would write in defense of the Jews? He's there and there's more of a shift toward what would be called the reformed

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Zwingli Calvin eventually, I mean Calvin is Converted right around this time so He's not there yet, he will be very quickly

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More toward that Stream of things and Luther loses some of that support, but he doesn't care partly

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Partly because it seems that in his perspective. He was still holding on to some hope

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That maybe Charles could be persuaded to allow for freedom for his movement.

39:14

He's still looking to the princes Fundamentally for the future of the

39:20

Reformation and so there's some evidence of some of his letters that he's like there is no way

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That I'm gonna have fellowship with or Brooke anything With Zwingli because I know if I do

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That's it with Charles. That's it So there is there's politics involved, unfortunately even in the theological issue here and Does that still happen today?

39:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does and it's easier for us Almost 500 years removed

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To look back and see that once we can read everybody's letters

40:03

You know, but at the time it looks like you're just arguing about the Bible when that's not actually really the case with everybody and so, you know, this is only 12 years after the technical start of the

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Reformation I'd say it's right at the end of the first decade really of the real Reformation as far as you know a movement a multinational movement and Once again 14 out of 15 ain't half bad in this fallen world

40:35

But it wasn't 15 out of 15 and we still see Some of the results of that to this day

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In you know, if you've never had the conversation with a

40:50

Lutheran brother or sister You don't know that really honestly not much has changed in five centuries.

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We still end up arguing about the same stuff Though Unfortunately, there's just so much liberalism now, especially on the

41:06

Lutheran side that it's maybe not as common a conversation as it once was

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But Zwingli ends up looking pretty good Luther doesn't look so so good as they have that and what's interesting is

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Zwingli only has two more years of life He has killed the Battle of Kappel. He dies the sword in his hand he is as we will see chaplain for the the army

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Zurich's army and in a battle with a another Swiss canton of Catholic Swiss canton

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He is mortally wounded. And then when the Roman Catholics realize who's under that that tree over there they mutilate his body and and so on and so forth and it is said that when word arrived in Wittenberg in 1531 of Zwingli's death

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Luther made one comment you lives by the sword dies by the sword and went on that was it showed no

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No compassion whatsoever But like I said, there's no hope for Zwingli's so from his perspective that difference on The nature of the presence of Christ in the supper

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Was Enough to for in his mind to to deny to Zwingli who believed in everything else that he believed in Standing as a fellow brother and sister in Christ and it makes you really think

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About where we draw the line and how easy it is to Identify someone who agrees with you and 14 out of 15 things now if it's the 15th thing is the

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Trinity Okay, but how many how many people could you come up with a list of 15 theological things?

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You disagree on the Trinity, but you agree on 14 other things. It's not gonna happen This is one of the last things and and you know, it's the old what's what's the core and then what is the important stuff around that and then what's the

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Adi offer around that and those are things gotta think about and Can we can we forgive

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Luther for not having had quite enough time to really think all that type of stuff through I mean, he's still an outlaw.

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He said There's still people want him dead Okay. Well It's gonna impact things.

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Yeah sure. It's gonna impact things but It does make us think through a lot of this stuff and we need to continue to think that stuff through to to the present day, so We will

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Whenever it is out. I am here again sometime in the future assuming that I survive all the

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Travel I've got coming up. We will Finish up Luther. We'll talk a little bit about Melancthon We got to talk about Ulrich Zwingli as well, and we will move on from there.

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Okay, let's close the word of prayer Father we do thank you for this time We do thank you for the evidence of history and its witness to us help us to think through in light of what has happened to the past similar situations in our day