"The Lost Tomb of Jesus" Reviewed

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white It could be the greatest Archaeological find ever since the 1970s hundreds of tombs and thousands of ancient bone boxes have been uncovered in the

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Holy Land But now one tomb unearthed in Talbiyah in 1980 is being regarded differently because it once held a box with this inscription

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Jesus son of Joseph While the Bible tells the story of Jesus and his resurrection this box could show physical evidence

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But he existed was buried and that he had a son Judah Those are the claims in a new book from Emmy -winning investigative journalist

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Simca Yakubovich and a documentary from Academy Award -winning director James Cameron Witnessed the biggest cover -up in human history

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It was the central controversial claim of Dan Brown's the Da Vinci Code Magdalene was

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Jesus's wife, but Jesus and Mary Magdalene married and started a royal bloodline that continues today

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Brown's story was fiction, but now a new documentary and book announced a startling real -life discovery

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It's unbelievable Journalist Simca Yakubovich says this tomb discovered underneath what is now an apartment complex near Jerusalem May be the final resting place of Jesus Christ and this limestone box called an ossuary could have held his actual bones

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Name is for him place This ossuary may have held

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Maria's or the Virgin Mary's This one is labeled Mary Omni which Christian scripture says was

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Mary Magdalene's real name And let's stop right there Well, if you listened if you read the blog you had a heads up We saw this come and didn't have much of a warning

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In fact, I would like to thank the fellow who came into the chat channel on Saturday morning and dropped a

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URL. It was about the only URL in the subject at the time But I saw very quickly the centrality of the argument that was being made and the sad fact that a large portion of the

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Christian community including The Christian apologetics community would not be in an overly good position to respond to this kind of cluster of arguments

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Being put forth in the empty in the lost tomb of Jesus. It should be the empty tomb of Jesus Anyway be that as it may

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We tried to give you a heads up tried to give you some warning as to what was coming And what you were just listening to was the today's show from yesterday morning

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We will be working through that. It is hard to get very far through these things that running into such outrageously false claims

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That you just have to stop and say wait, wait, wait And as soon as you say that Rachel's default the other side says but you haven't seen the movie yet Yeah, but you're making the claim

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So when you when you say for example, the Christian scriptures tell us that Mary Omni is

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Mary Magdalene No, they do not this to me is the central argument of this entire film is

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That Mary Omni the name on one of the ossuaries in the 1980

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Tomb that was uncovered in the construction of the apartment complex That Mary Omni and I'm not even getting into the questions that exist and questions do exist

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About the validity of the inscriptions. There are questions. There are arguments on both sides.

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That's still being worked out There is a trial going on in Israel as we speak Well, probably not as we speak because it would be too late there, but there was while we were sleeping on this very issue in regards to the

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Possibility of tampering that has been done with the James ossuary Which this film claims is the 10th ossuary that was found there were 10 ossuaries found there only 9 right now

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They're claiming that's the 10th one Well, if that one's been tampered with and all bets are off and all the rest of it

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But not even getting into all that stuff right now Mary Omni is the name that they focus upon and Repeatedly say

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Christian scholars say here. We just heard Meredith Vieira say that the

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Christian scriptures say that this is Mary Magdalene. No, they don't

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That is the and so far. I've not heard anyone challenging this. I've not heard anybody saying.

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Oh, no, that's not true and We're gonna listen to the Larry King thing from last night.

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We may not get to all of it today, but there was a Larry King program last night, which is Larry King is is is the if you want to make sure that nothing more

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Than sound bites ever get said and no one can ever have enough time to develop any intelligent thought listen to Larry King Larry King is one of the most frustrating programs to ever listen to if you actually are concerned about what's being said

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The man is the worst interviewer that God ever put on this planet and he is a scourge upon any serious subject

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It is just just Unbelievable to try to listen to that man, but be as it may

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We're gonna listen to some segments that but I want you to see How absolutely central?

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This is to this current argument in case you can't tell I've been on top of this thing and it's been the main thing

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I've been thinking about for days now and I'll be letting you know on Sort of announcing something a little bit later on the program.

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So don't tune away, but listen to The very beginning well, it's not the very beginning

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I missed the very beginning of the Larry King show last night in the interview because I was trying to find a way to record

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It and I eventually gave up and just used an old -fashioned way of an mp3 recorder I guess mp3 recorders aren't all that old -fashioned

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But I was trying to hook up cables and get video and all that stuff and I couldn't get it done But I did eventually get it started right at this point.

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Listen to Simcha Yakovovich as he is Talking about why it is that even though this was found almost 30 years ago now all of a sudden

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They've been able to put the pieces together I'll play this section and then a section with Cameron on the today show yesterday morning

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So you can see where this is coming from. Here's Simcha Yakovovich They didn't know that so the archaeologists didn't know what the

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New Testament guys knew and the New Testament people didn't know what the Archaeologists knew once we connected those dots

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Yeah, see there's once we connected those dots. What's he talking about? He's talking about the assertion.

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You heard it in Meredith Vieira's words, which I'm sure she didn't write some writer at NBC Saying that Mary Omni is

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Mary Magdalene here. You have Simcha saying see New Testament scholars knew this They knew that Mary Omni is

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Mary Magdalene, but the archaeologists didn't so when the archaeologists saw Mary Omni in the ossuaries that name on the ossuary

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They didn't make a connection and we're the ones who have connected the dots We've put this all together and that's the same thing that Cameron said

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On the today show right toward the end of the interview I think a lot of folks were maybe you know getting ready to move on or whatever that point but listen listen to what

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Cameron says At the very end of the interview from the today show yesterday morning They looked at that.

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They said oh, well, there's a second Mary here, you know, Mary Omni is it was a diminutive of a Miriam which is

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Mary and but they didn't have the information from the from the acts of Philip which

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Definitely identifies Mary Magdalene as Mary Omni if they'd had that information Maybe they might have looked at the whole name cluster very differently in 1980.

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Well, it has found that so Simcha Yakovovich finds this information from the acts of Philip Now, what are the acts of Philip?

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Is this something that all New Testament scholars go? Oh, yes. This is this is relevant information

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Vital to test it has the same kind of standing as the canonical Gospels. The answer of course is

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No, it's not in any way shape or form for that matter

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That isn't the case. Well, what then are? The what then is the acts of Philip well

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I've been trying to help out as much as possible by providing links on the website and by the way,

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I have I have put an entire topic area a subject area of the tomb issues on the website

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So all you got to do is go down to the bottom of the blog click on tomb issues and you'll have everything that we have

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Posted on this particular subject right there in front of you the the acts of Philip are known in their earliest form from a

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Will be conservative here 14th century manuscript now some

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Theorize, please note this terminology, please some Theorize this is a speculation.

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It is purely theoretical. You don't have any way of backing it up There is no evidence for it.

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It is theoretical that the book could be as early as Sometime after the

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Council of Nicaea for a century That is a pure speculation. There's no evidence to back that up.

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Okay, let's say around the year 500 So we have a document that doesn't that cannot even be pretended to be a meaningful historical document as in containing first century data

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From the time of when these ossuaries use because remembers we're gonna now know more about ossuaries

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Then we ever thought of before the James ossuary got us going on this now it's now it's front and center you can't ignore this one because it's it's it's gonna be all over the place and Every person you talk to about the gospel who's heard it is going to be asking you about these things that's why we have to pursue this no matter how distasteful it might be or Sometimes how silly it might be we have to pursue this because I think it is truly a major apologetic issue that faces us today when someone attacks the centrality of the resurrection folks and And this this

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I don't even think Simca Yakovovic really understands yet because of what he said and Larry King we'll hear it later on if we ever get around doing all this stuff, but Simca Yakovovic, we're not attacking the the resurrection

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I mean unless you think it's physical, but most Christians don't think Jesus rose physically from the dead and you're just left going

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Okay, look folks if there were bones of Jesus in that ossuary We are of all of all men most to be pitied.

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Is that not what the Apostle Paul said? That means there was no resurrection. That means there's no Christianity.

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This is the heart and soul of it. Okay, and You know, maybe I'm giving way too much credit to think that he doesn't really know this but it's possible that he doesn't

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Maybe the only Christians he's ever run into sadly or the John Shelby Sponge type Which aren't Christians in the first place, but if Jesus Christ bones were in an ossuary, there is no

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Christian faith That's it. It's over with go home close the doors and a lot of people do know that he may not realize that but There's got to be other people involved with this this whole thing that are well aware that that is in fact the situation so Here's here's here's the assertion that you've got a

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Source we're going back to the to the to the acts of acts of Philip now Here is the source that put everything together if they had just known about this 14th century 14th century 14 centuries after this you see the ossuary thing.

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I'm sorry. I skipped a skip the line there the ossuary thing Ossuaries were only used for a brief period of time.

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They're primarily associated with Hasmonean dynasty about Ten, you know, if we want to give it about 60 to 80 year

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Swing there in the first century beginning the first century through the destruction of Jerusalem.

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That's when you have ossuaries being used And they're wonderful archaeological things because you know, they last for a long time

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But other than that They they they don't have a long history There that is relevant to us.

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And yes, they're very useful because you know, you've got to Joseph Caiaphas is ossuary you've seen a lot of pictures of that now and and stuff like that and and So these are these are items that are of great archaeological significance.

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There's no question about that okay, but These have certain names on them again not getting into the possibility of problems with the with the inscriptions

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But these have certain names on them. How do we go about identifying this one particular name?

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Mary Omni this this to me is the clearest illustration of Where this documentary is going to go way off track because you heard it

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You heard him say it. I'm gonna I'm gonna play it again So you can hear him say they looked at that.

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They said oh, well, there's a second Mary here, you know Mary Omni is it was a diminutive of Miriam Mary and but they didn't have the information from the from the acts of Philip which

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Definitely identifies Mary Magdalene as Mary Omni if they'd had that information Maybe they might have looked at the whole name cluster very differently in 1980.

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Well, it has found that so archaeologists working in Israel are supposed to be making reference to a source that at the absolute outside at the at the at the stretching it as far as you can is 400 years in the future from the time frame of the tomb itself

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Think about that for a second folks Go at least 400 years down and the only evidence you have actually comes from 1400 years later

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Go down in history to the acts of Philip and Cameron tells us that the acts of Philip Definitely tell us

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Mary Magdalene is Mary Omni. Guess what read them. They never say that they don't even get close to that It is a wild -eyed speculation on the part of a small minority of scholars that the

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Mary Omni who is identified in the acts of Philip as the sister of Philip not of Jesus wife or anything else

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She's never said to be Mary Magdalene She is said to interestingly enough.

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She's to die in the Jordan River and when threatened she turns into either a glass box or a pillar of smoke

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That's this is the level of stuff that is being made the linchpin the foundation for the argumentation of this film

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And so the acts of Philip from way up in the future that never make the connection of Mary Omni and Mary Magdalene Because they're

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Speculated upon by someone that you know what this Mary Omni Seems like what some of the

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Gnostics said about Mary Magdalene So we'll make the connection so way down the road these connections get made.

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They are highly speculative They have no factual foundation to them whatsoever these get read back into the first century and now we have

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Mary Magdalene being married to Jesus and they've got a kid and How do you make any of this kind of wild -eyed nuttiness sound good you throw in statistical analysis and then you throw in the issue of DNA and Because everybody in Western culture knows as long as you've got statistics in DNA That's it,

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I mean it has to be true doesn't it well, no it doesn't have to be true

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Because of two things let me just mention these real quick then we'll go back to listening to these where I got a phone call and hold and and so we're

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Going at it from every which every which direction today two things real quick the

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DNA issue is not even a questionable issue. What do I mean by that?

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Well people hear this and immediately Christians are going DNA that's stupid We don't have any sample against which to know that the

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DNA analysis was very simple As far as I can tell and remember we're gonna have much more to say about this once the book is released

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I'm gonna be going looking for it today. It's supposed to be out today I'm gonna be checking the local bookstores here real quick See if I can track it down before I do the way of the master program

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At two o 'clock, so I'm gonna be I'm gonna be hoofing it But Once we've got the book once we've got the movie

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Then we'll be able to go into much more detail than we can right now All we can go on right now is all the stuff on the net and the things that these people themselves are saying their own

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Claims we're playing their own words and responding to them The argument is that they could only there was only enough human fragments left

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Which would be small bone fragments to do testing on the two main ossuaries that they're concerned about which was

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Jesus son of Joseph and Mary Omni and That's possibly understandable what you need to understand is is

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The only kind of testing that they could do is mitochondrial DNA there There would not be any nuclear

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DNA full DNA strands that would be accessible in such a condition after 2 ,000 years just just wouldn't be there so they can do mitochondrial

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DNA We have a good friend in our chat channel a former member of my church who is a

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CSI and works with DNA and hence knows a good bit about DNA and has done some research for us and in fact, she contacted the very man who did the research and Ironically, he ended his email with something along the lines of don't let the media deceive you

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There are only limited things that mitochondrial DNA can do and it can only eliminate certain familial relationships, but not others and So what they're doing is they're saying they're emphasizing that there were certain familial relationships between whoever

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Yeshua Ben Joseph was and Mary Omni was that opens the possibility of their being married and Then you throw in the

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Gnostic silliness from the 14th century and boom, you've got your story But what you need to realize is there are certain other familial relationships that mitochondrial

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DNA analysis cannot preclude for example Yeshua Ben Joseph could have been the father of Mary Omni There is no way that mitochondrial

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DNA evidence would be able to demonstrate that in an ancient context would be able to demonstrate that That's not a possibility

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Couldn't be done now. Will they admit that on the film? I don't know. Will they admit that in the book?

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I don't know don't have it yet. It's just released today. I'm gonna go looking for it we will be able to go into much more detail on this in the future, but he who did the actual

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DNA analysis is Himself saying look there's only certain things that I actually said the conclusions that have been

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Put out there by Discovery Channel and the producers stuff are not mine. I do not support them.

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That's not me talking Here's all I said So he's being very careful as of course he must be in comparison to the rather wild -eyed

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Argumentation that is that has appeared on especially the Discovery Channel remember the Discovery Channel is the same channel that has brought us the search for Bigfoot and things like that too and This seems to be very much along the same lines as far as as far as that goes

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Yeah, I've just been told the oh the DNA chapter is only eight pages long T Quid in in channel here who is one of the members of team

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Apollo Guillaume tells me it's 27 bucks Yee -haw rich.

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I'm bringing the credit card with me So we're gonna we're gonna go see if we can't track that that baby down in fact

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If we don't have any other phone callers Colin, maybe you can give Give somebody a call here locally

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Maybe up at Metro centers like that track one down for me have one held for me or something like that I don't want to get up there and it's gone.

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So Once you're done eating that wonderful looking, you know eating in front of me right before lunch is really not not a kind thing to Do especially when you look like you're enjoying it that that just I'm gonna turn the webcam around so everybody can see you sitting there munching on your on your health food

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There should I tell them what it is? You're you're pop -tart Anyway Okay, here's a quote, thank you

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Thank You T quid that Jesus mitochondrial DNA seemed typical of the Semitic tribes people who had inhabited the

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Jordan Valley in the time of Pilate inherit well There's some insight We couldn't have possibly had any idea of there you go

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There there's there's there's some insight there. Okay. Anyway, here's here's to it. There's DNA argument

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Personally, I think the DNA argument there is is there primarily to? Lend scientific credibility and allow the

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Discovery Channel to make the claims it's making. I honestly it's not giving you that much more information then the big one the one that they

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Pushed on Larry King the one that they they pushed on the Today Show Was the name cluster issue the name cluster issue?

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Let me let me give you a a story here now Obviously, we're gonna want to do much more in -depth work on this and in over the next couple weeks

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But let me just give you a little story last night In our chat channel another fellow who also is rather highly educated and a rather brilliant person

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We have a lot of rather smart folks in our channel it came into channel and just for the fun of it

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I Started surfing around the web and found a document in which my name

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My first name my wife's first name spelled the way she spells it my daughter's first name and my son's first name all appeared on one document on a website and it was an honor roll at a university in Hawaii and so so he said that's clear proof that we of course have lived in Hawaii, which actually we haven't but And then on a lark he then pulled up the census name list.

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Did you know you could do this? You can pull up census nameless back. A lot of people are wondering. How do we know that Mary was the most popular name?

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Well, there's a book right here. Those of you watching on the webcam. Here is the book It is called Jesus and the eyewitnesses the

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Gospels as eyewitness testimony by Richard Balcom I'm writing the review of this book for CRI right now It just happens to be what

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I'm one of the things that I'm doing and it's a brand new book by by Richard Balcom And there is an entire chapter on the names

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That were used and and where they're found how they're found and on for example page 89

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Table 7 the 31 most popular female names on Palestinian Jews 330 BCE to 200

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CE so for half a millennium on both ends of our time period Mary Mariam is the number one 42 ossuaries have been found

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With Mariam on it Salome 41 Shalom Zion 19

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Martha 17 Joanna 7 This is the ossuaries a total numbers is

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Miriam 70 Salome 58 Shalom Zion 24 Martha 20 Joanna 12

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Shifra 12 Bernice 8 and then you start going down from there and You have the same kind of of numbers

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Most popular male names table 6 page 85 Simon Simeon Is number 1

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Joseph Joses is number 2 Jesus Joshua is number 6 okay, and So this information is available to us well

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They have census records as well, and you can pull census records up and so this fellow last night in channel pull the census records up and Got the the total appearance numbers for eat my name my wife's name my daughter's name and my son's name and Then he put them together and what is the probability of those four names appearing in one family in?

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That context and the number went to 10 the 14th power But the problem is folks my family does exist

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My name is my name my wife's name is my wife's name and we chose those names and those names exist and this kind of Abuse of statistics can be used to prove anything

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They showed a portion in fact. I bet you I could I could find it here in the in the

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Larry King wave Though with all the background noise it probably wouldn't come out really well, but they showed a portion and they had

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Tabor Tabor for example Picked up this and in the arguments on Larry King And he picked it up and saying well look you know if you had all these people in a football stadium

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And you asked the ones the name Jesus stand up this many would stand up And then if they had if it was a son of Joseph this many and then you throw in Mary And they're trying to they're trying to create this illusion that this has to be the one tell the one tomb based upon The assumption that Mary Omni is

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Mary Magdalene and Maria has to be Mary the Virgin Mary They're ignoring all the facts these people were not

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Jerusalem. I they didn't live here. There is absolutely no Logical reason they keep saying this is the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth.

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Hello. Where's Nazareth? Do you know it's not anywhere near Jerusalem folks?

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The family isn't going down there and after After the crucifixion if they even accept that it seems that they do are you seriously suggesting the

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Jewish authorities would be letting these people hang around and Have hallowed ground to bury people in The whole thing just the special pleading eventually just gets absolutely amazing so the point is take your own family take your parents names and Your name and your sister's names and your brother's names it would help if you have four or five and Look at the census records see how prevalent your guys's names are and then run the stats and You'll discover you can't possibly exist

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Yeah, there's a million to one chance that you don't actually exist That's the kind of argumentation that's being found here

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And it's it's just absolutely amazing to me that that that people are not pointing this out and then when you throw in The acts of Philip silliness.

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Oh By the way, but can you tell that I've been spending a lot of time on this because I'm just running all over the place because there's just so much stuff to put together here and Really, you know what?

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I what I mentioned is it is my intention As soon as I get back well, and if I can get this book today

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I haven't seen anybody making phone calls yet, but if I can get to get this book today To to track it down.

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It's my intention starting at the latest on Monday once the film is out I've had chance to view the film.

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I've got the book To respond to it not on the blog though. I will be putting stuff on the blog

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It is my intention to write a book and to write it as quickly as we can do so on a practical level

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Focusing upon these things providing the references that I can't really provide in this context overly quickly and get this out as quickly as humanly possible

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That means I'm gonna have to put other stuff on hold for a while Not for a long while because I want this out quickly since There is a need for a full orbed response so that people know

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I mean the timing is always the same, isn't it? Everybody keeps pointing out coming up on Resurrection Sunday coming up on Easter always throw this stuff out there.

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Yeah, this is a retread from 1996 But it's a retread with DNA and statistics analysis and James Cameron and so on and so forth.

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So it's a very pretty retread and it's the kind of presentation that is very effective for postmodern

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Westerners who don't do a lot of critical thinking and Christians need to have a

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Documented source they can have with them that provides the responses that they need to get the witnessing situation back on track and in fact if anything

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Get it back on track in a proper way get it use it as a means of witness turn this thing around Remember when we we talked about the passion turn it around use it positively.

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That's what John Piper did with his book That's what I'm talking about here turn this use the

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Da Vinci code turn it around use it as a witnessing opportunity That's already dedicated. I don't know how many blog entries very full lengthy blog entries to that here we need to turn this around and use it as a means of Witness turn it around as a testimony to the to the gospel into the resurrection

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So I came up with a working title. In fact, those of you who are calling in might tell me what you think about it

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Working title I came up with as I was driving into the office this morning was and I'm doing this off top of my head put it in chat channel, but I Like a scroll back try to find it.

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The working title is from Toronto to Emmaus the empty tomb and the journey from skepticism to truth -based faith

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The journey from Toronto from Toronto to Emmaus. Hopefully, you know why

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I put it that way Simca Jakubowicz is from Toronto and Emmaus obviously that encounter on the road that I would like to focus upon at some point in the book and That's that's what

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I'm going to be doing for the next couple of weeks Putting this information together giving you the information on ossuaries on Mary Omni the acts of Philip Information like that gathering as much as I can and and getting something out into people's hands

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I am certain that others will be putting out huge tomes, but huge tomes take a lot of time and While really good theology takes a lot of time this isn't really a really good attack upon Christianity It is really good only in the sense that it has it has pop it has sizzle.

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It has the media behind it. It has DNA Anybody who watches CSI is going.

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Ooh, this is cool And I imagine once you see the film and see how how it can be spun that way you're gonna see yep

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You know something we need something very quickly that allows us to respond on the same level and that is understandable

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And that's that's what I I intend to be launching into I hope you'll be praying for us and supporting us as we do that because that means

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I'm gonna be putting other things on hold and so on so forth, so please Be patient with us as we as we go for that that particular situation so anyway

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There's there's the big issues the big issue is Mary Omni the big issue is the name cluster stuff.

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Those are the two the two Focal points of the argumentation everything else is window dressing

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That you can address in in various ways, but that's the linchpin in their own words

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I mean, I'm I'm not the one who said I'm not the one who said what's what

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Simca said right here That's that's not me talking that is them

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Identifying the heart of what their argumentation is and that's what we need to be focusing into as as well, so We'll be going back to the today program thing here

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But we do have a phone call I'd like to get to first and so let's go ahead and talk with Kendall hi

34:16

Kendall Hello, James. How are you sir doing? Well ten minutes before the show?

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I walked in my office with the book in my hand well good Like you I just I want to get my hands on it, and I look forward to you writing something well actually you know

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I've I had it on order, and then I realized wait a minute I I don't if it's out today, and I thought it wasn't gonna be out till tomorrow

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I was already be traveling I guess I could pick it up when I get to Massachusetts But I think

34:44

Rich is making some phone calls right now to see if I can get hold of it here locally so that There's this thing called the the waiting area at the airport or that you sit at for a long long period of time and I would like to have that in my hand during that period of Period of patience building so anyway, did you see the discovery website?

35:02

You know yeah, that could change history. Yes, and You know it's interesting you you mentioned

35:08

I have that I just walked in and you mentioned that the chapter on DNA is only eight pages long on the back page last 174 of that chapter, it's just interesting you know they don't have

35:19

DNA Samples of any of the other boxes so that so I'm right in what

35:25

I had seen where I saw a claim I've been chasing this thing for four days now, but I I saw a claim that's that's the

35:37

Only to those two boxes only those two ossuaries had sufficient material in them

35:48

To allow for Examination sorry about that that was that's convenient for them isn't it and that does strike me as a little odd to be honest with You with the the

35:59

Judah son of Jesus. They said What's what's bad about this one we tried to get some material, but it had been scoured out for cleaning preparation for a museum display

36:15

Interesting and So yeah out of all the boxes and now they don't mention that they actually tried unless I you know

36:23

I Didn't read in that chapter where they tried to get any other

36:29

DNA. I don't know also I'd like to know when did they start this DNA research?

36:34

Well, they said it's been over the past three years And I don't they they did take it to the to the best place that they could take it to up in Canada To I think is

36:44

Lakeland University where they specialize in the analysis of ancient mitochondrial

36:50

RNA and the extraction and amplification and analysis of that so We did verify that they really couldn't have taken it to a better place

37:00

To do to do what they did So how many pages is it the whole book?

37:06

Yeah? That'll be a quick read so All right well

37:13

Kent I appreciate that I hope I will be taking that with me to the airport to tomorrow myself and pray for us as we launch into this

37:20

I'm going to try to do this. You know 12 hours a day and Get something out as quickly as possible.

37:26

It'll be accurate not necessarily exhaustive, but useful to the people of God I'm definitely

37:32

In support of that and and financially I'd like to stay on the line because you know there's got to be something

37:38

Written out like you said quickly yeah, and it's interesting. That's just you mentioned

37:43

This was brought up in 96, but this idea that they were going to be coming out with this No, been pretty much kept secret

37:50

You know the first I heard of it was Saturday morning. That was the very first thing so yeah

37:56

They believe me they learned their lesson look what happens at a Vinci code Before the film came out since the book was already out there were already how many half a dozen a dozen books

38:06

Debunking it before it ever came out and interestingly enough as a result they sort of softened the presentation in the film itself

38:12

They don't want to have to go through that they they got one shot at this And if there's already stuff in response to it before the film comes out

38:20

Even the Discovery Channel may not want it So that's this there was some some real good thinking behind all of this

38:30

Skip scholarships skip the process of vetting this stuff examining it allowing people to go wait a minute acts of Philip Hello, do you really want to go here as your as your key argument and key source in your argumentation is the acts of Philip?

38:44

Do you really want to go there? They skipped all that because if they did that there would be no film right and so why wouldn't they bring in other scholars?

38:53

To investigate it as well. There's no end other independent Researchers that I know of I had access to all that's where the book and the film is gonna

39:01

You know they they I know that they mentioned that they talked to some of the skeptics in Israel But I've not seen any evidence of any type of critical thinking in regards to the sources that they consider to be

39:13

Scholarship for example in regards to the acts of Philip. I don't I haven't seen it That's one of the main reasons that as soon as we finish the program here today in 20 minutes

39:21

I'm gonna be heading out the door and and going to try to track that book down because that's where the

39:27

Documentation hopefully will be if it's not there Then that's obviously something we're gonna be focusing upon as well

39:34

James in your reading of the early church fathers It's amazing to you know this idea that Jesus was married had a kid, and it's unreported in the early you know well not only unreported, but remember

39:46

This would be great for skeptics of the first second third centuries against the apologist Is there any mention of that?

39:53

Not to my knowledge. I mean the Pantera thing that Tabor has put out

39:59

Again finding a there's a there's a there's a Pantera Monument or a burial place in Germany's this must be the

40:07

Roman soldier who was the father of Jesus Al Mohler did nail him on that on the Larry King thing

40:13

Larry King program last night, but That was the primary argumentation was that Jesus was the the bastard child of a

40:21

Roman soldier But the all the rest this stuff developed way down the road in Gnosticism and even the

40:28

Jewish opponents of Christianity knew that the Gnostics Really didn't have a team in this in this tournament in other words their worldview is so completely different That they rejected them as a meaningful source as well

40:41

So you know that's that just simply wasn't the argumentation that they were presenting at that time.

40:46

What is good? I appreciate your blog and Ben Witherington has had some stuff on his blog

40:51

Yeah, I saw I read that this morning and Justin Taylor is posting stuff So I do hope that there's a lot more out there

40:58

I hope so because when I first started searching at Saturday morning, there is nothing now. There is everything

41:04

All right. Thank you, sir. All right. All right. God bless by the way, we need to work on our

41:10

On our phone system we're getting we're getting some bad static. I'm not sure what the problem is there

41:16

We will figure it out as as time I hope I don't have that bad static when I try to do way of the master

41:22

That's that that would be really bad and I imagine this will probably we end up talking about on that as as well

41:29

Barnes & Noble is still unpacking their shipment. She said that they are expecting it to be in there.

41:34

Mm -hmm. Okay Alrighty, I'll go help them open a box if that's what we need to do

41:42

I don't have a problem doing that. That's that's that's cool We'll we'll see what

41:48

What goes on with that? So let's get back to the to the today show and how this was presented

41:54

Yesterday morning because whether we like it or not folks if you're listening to this There's only a few of you in comparison to the broad culture

42:03

It's going to be one of those situations where we have to exercise the patience of Repeating the same things over and over again and I gotta admit

42:10

I struggle with that I struggle with that when I've said the same thing 20 times and I run across someone who

42:16

Especially in an arrogant attitude repeat stuff that I know is as false as day as long.

42:21

I struggle with patience I that's a that's a Problem with my my character and and I need the spirits help in that area and maybe you understand how that works

42:30

So we need to know what's gonna be said and they're not gonna be reading the books We're the ones that have to bring that information

42:37

They're the ones are they're gonna be going simply on the the second -hand stuff of the film and what they've seen on television

42:42

So we need to know what's being said. So going back to the today show Find ever since the 1970s hundreds of tombs and thousands of ancient bone boxes have been uncovered in the

42:54

Holy Land But now one tomb on earth in Talbiyah in 1980 is being regarded differently because it once held a box with this inscription

43:03

Jesus son of Joseph Well, the Bible tells the story of Jesus and his resurrection

43:08

This box could show physical evidence that he existed was buried and that he had a son

43:15

Judah Those are the claims in a new book from Emmy -winning investigative journalist Simca Yakubovich and a documentary from Academy Award -winning director

43:23

James Cameron Witness the biggest cover -up in human history

43:30

It was the central controversial claim of Dan Brown's the Da Vinci Code Magdalene was

43:36

Jesus's wife Jesus why why Da Vinci Code why I mean why even

43:42

I mean that to me the fact that this keeps coming up and it Keeps being used connecting two together.

43:47

Why do they want to do that? It would seem because they want to tap into the same audience for us what it does it goes see

43:53

Same looniness behind this that you have that you have in the Da Vinci Mary Magdalene married and started a royal bloodline that continues today

44:02

Brown's story was fiction, but now a new documentary and book announces startling real -life discovery

44:14

Journalist Simca Yakubovich says this tomb discovered underneath what is now an apartment complex near Jerusalem May be the final resting place of Jesus Christ and this limestone box called an ossuary could have held his actual bones

44:32

This ossuary may have held Maria's or the Virgin Mary's This one is labeled

44:37

Mary Omni which Christian scripture says was Mary Magdalene's real name And perhaps most shocking of all the writing on this box translates to Judah son of Jesus If true the consequences are impossible to measure

44:52

Well Christianity really stands or falls with the fact of Jesus's bodily resurrection from the dead and then he physically ascended into heaven

45:00

Father Thomas Williams is an NBC news analyst Where was this supposed son if if he had when he would have been a prominent member of this new church?

45:08

And he wasn't the church is not alone in arguing. This too may have nothing to do with the Jesus Christ millions

45:14

Now worship the site was first examined 27 years ago and archaeologists then came to a very different conclusion

45:22

These are the most common names among Jews in the first century common error suggesting that This tomb was the tomb of the family of Jesus is far -fetched

45:36

Yakubovich says experts in statistics DNA and patina testing back up the conclusion that this could be the biggest archaeological find ever

45:44

We found it Simca Yakubovich and James Cameron are here for their first television interview on the

45:51

Jesus family tomb and the Discovery Channel documentary Called the lost tomb of Jesus good morning to both of you gentlemen read the book over the weekend watch the documentary

45:59

There are so few Wow stories out there. This is one of them I mean Simca you believe you have found the family tomb of Jesus You have brought over two of the ossuaries or the the bone boxes as we call them

46:11

And you're going to display them in front of the the press later on today. We have them here I want to show the audience got a live shot of them and you describe which ones we're looking at Well, oh, they're there.

46:21

They are right. We're looking at the bone box inscribed Jesus son of Joseph That's the more plain one the smaller one and the other one says

46:29

Mariam name Which is scholars today says the real name of Mary Magdalene and they were found in that tomb along with other boxes that you believe

46:37

Held the right the remains of Mother Mary Some of the relatives and also Judah who you think was the son of the box says

46:45

Judah son of Jesus if this is correct What are the implications? They're huge They are huge, but they're not necessarily what the implications that people think they are

46:56

For example, some believers may say well this challenges the resurrection I don't know why Jesus rose from one tomb.

47:02

He could have risen from the other tomb now He I've heard him say this multiple times it's on the

47:08

Discovery Channel It is it possible that he truly does not understand the centrality of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ Christianity I I suppose it's possible that certainly would explain the the rather wide -eyed

47:23

Naivete of the acts of Philip but but is that really possible? Are there not others who over this course of time?

47:31

Had enough knowledge of these things go, excuse me, you you're using what you you don't realize that what you're saying here would mean that the the historic

47:40

Christian view from the start is completely wrong and And Christianity's faults.

47:45

Do you not know that you're launching this? Someone didn't say that somewhere along the lines.

47:51

It's hard for me to believe that really has to do with ascension But we're not theologians. I'm not a theologian

47:56

We're here we're reporters and we're reporting the facts and what we're saying is here are the facts there is a tomb

48:02

It has ossuaries this everybody agrees on that archaeologists What do they say Jesus son of Joseph one who belongs to Maria the mother one belongs to Mary Magdalene another belongs to Josie?

48:13

Which the the gospel of Mark the the earliest gospel says is a nickname of the brother of Jesus These are facts and that was a rare name

48:21

Josie. Not when you would find very It's the only one it's the only one found with that exactly boxes is inscribed with the name

48:29

Matthea Matthew So what we're saying is that we took we took the facts and had been dismissed as it couldn't be

48:36

It couldn't be the family of Jesus For two reasons the second Mary couldn't be isn't Mary Magdalene But in 1980 when it was found they didn't know that her her real name not her title

48:47

But her real name is Mari Amne and that's what it says on the box And the second thing is what these people said on your show they're common names, but these are archaeologists

48:55

They never went to statisticians. What are the odds a cluster of names? Okay? Here we go statisticians who were shocked but by what they said and what were the odds that this is indeed the family of Jesus?

49:07

well, I think that you that they don't like to use the term odds, but they'll do a probability study and the

49:15

Sort of the upper numbers that we were coming up with we're up in the range of a couple of million to one Against I mean in favor of it being them or say two million to one that it's that it's not a chance

49:28

That it's not them and the lowest boundary is somewhere around a hundred to one So it's a hundred to one is in ninety nine percent

49:34

So it's a hundred to one for the tomb between a hundred one and a thousand to one for the tomb And nothing now for the tomb again

49:46

People hear that they go why is that wrong? Why why is there why is there a problem here? Well, first of all, you're getting to pick which names you're going to include you're you're ignoring all the historical stuff about all the questions about Jerusalem and the family wasn't there and and Throw all that stuff to the wind evidently

50:03

What you've got is this idea? That once we play with Mary Omni because throw

50:10

Mary Omni there and recognize something. This is something again I just completely forgot this earlier

50:17

If Serious scholarship was being done here If serious examination was being done here.

50:23

What would be the means? And you don't have to be an archaeologist to figure this out. Just think with me for a moment.

50:29

This is simple rationality what would be the means of Determining the most likely origination and meaning of the name

50:39

Mary Omni if I told you they jumped 1 ,400 years down the road to the acts of Philip and Then take a very speculative interpretation of it

50:48

They cannot be established by the by the document itself because it never says that Mary Omni is Mary Magdalene Even though Cameron says, oh certainly it clearly identified.

50:57

No, it doesn't that's just not true so but That's not how archaeologists work.

51:04

You don't go 1 ,400 years down the road or 400 years down the road when there is a glaring

51:11

Clear Context right in front of you and that's another reason why the Israeli archaeologists

51:17

I'm sure are chuckling about the whole thing though. They're wondering about how everybody else is making all this money off stuff.

51:22

They found specifically Mary Omni do a search. I have the librarnics library.

51:29

I have a very large librarnics library. I searched for Mary Omni every single reference

51:35

I have numerous scholarly archaeological sources in my library Entire back issues biblical archaeology review all these things in my in my library never

51:48

New Testament commentaries Old Testament commentaries intertestamental historical Lexical sources never in all of that.

51:55

Does Mary Omni come up as the name for Mary Magdalene not once What does Mary Omni come up as?

52:01

She was a well -known woman. All right. She was the wife of Herod his favorite wife and And Ossuary's are directly attached to the

52:11

Hasmonean dynasty, which she was a part of and So here you have a name well known used for buildings

52:22

Everybody knew who Mary Omni was and so here you have an ossuary

52:29

Coming after the period where she's so popular Same context same language same area and Instead of going for the obvious.

52:40

Oh here is clearly a name that is well known In that time period was a royal descent

52:51

Preceding this time period by just a few decades It would be like Jackie.

52:57

Everybody knows who Jackie was Jackie Kennedy Onassis How many women were named

53:04

Jackie when Jackie was in the White House there are names that are well known and that was the case with Mary Omni and So Here you have if we were doing scholarship if we're really serious about this

53:22

What would be the more likely source for Mary Omni? Herod's wife and the

53:29

Hasmonean dynasty in the preceding decades right there in that place or a work of fiction

53:40

That at the very least is at least 400 years down the road that we only know from a source 1400 years down the road

53:47

That is even only speculatively once you read it identify with Mary Magdalene at all Which is which is more likely?

53:56

It does make you sit back and go hmm hmm Who's really behind this?

54:04

Our Cameron and Yakubovich just just dupes for somebody else They're the they're the face people or are they really the ones behind this?

54:12

I don't know. I don't have a clue Maybe we'll find out. I don't know But it does make you go.

54:18

Wow, it's really odd. It would seem rather obvious Which has the greater probability, but I bet they didn't ask the statistics probability guy

54:28

To figure in Mary Omni Mary Omni is a name well known in the culture

54:37

Bet they didn't do that. Hmm. What a shame you suggest that there's any forgery involved or anything like that Nobody argued the archaeologists who even deny that this is the family of Jesus Don't deny that this is a true authentic find the issue is that archaeologists played statisticians and dismissed

54:54

The find what we did is we went to the statisticians we're just reporting the new we're not statisticians

55:00

We're not theologians. We're not statisticians about theologians about DNA experts. We're not Anything we're just reporting the facts

55:09

I'm sorry going to the axe of Philip is not reporting the facts

55:16

Going into the future by by minimally hundreds of years if not longer than that and ignoring

55:23

What could have been an easy search on a computer that took me five seconds to do is

55:29

Not reporting the facts if you just report the facts you wouldn't have a movie

55:35

Appearing on the Discovery Channel and a book coming out for 27 bucks for 210 pages Somebody's making a mint

55:44

Follow the money We're reporting the news and now the debate is going to begin because statisticians say it's significant

55:51

DNA experts Say it's significant. I want to talk about the DNA because when these Ossuaries were first found there were bones in them back in 1980 and the archaeologists removed that the bones were removed and buried but there was enough remnant in in the

56:04

Box that you believe contained the the remains of Jesus and the one with Mary Magdalene And you were able to to do

56:11

DNA tests, and what did you find? We didn't do it experts did what an expert? Didn't remove they didn't remove bones what they removed is what they call forensic human residue

56:23

We had a CSI lab in New York work on this. We had a paleo DNA lab in Ontario work on this and they got mitochondrial

56:31

DNA and what they found see this could have killed the whole theory if Mary Magdalene and Jesus if that if they match that means they weren't husband and wife their brother and sister

56:42

They didn't match so they got a DNA profile Again, we're here to you know people have to you know people gonna talk about oh

56:52

Hello, I'm sitting here coughing, and I've got my hand on the mute button Notice what was said there, they're not brother and sister okay congratulations

56:59

That means they didn't have the same mother because mitochondrial DNA comes from the maternal line that doesn't mean that it wasn't a father -daughter relationship

57:08

Why not bring that out now at one point I at some point I think I did hear him use the term

57:13

Maternal very quickly But most people don't hear that part all they hear is

57:20

DNA proves They could have been married That's the most likely thing why?

57:29

why not Yeshua Ben Joseph being the son of Matthew Why isn't that just as likely why isn't it just as likely that Yeshua Ben Joseph was married to Maria I?

57:43

Mean I hope the book does not make the argument in fact. I hate to Ask a

57:50

T quid to be reading and and typing into Very fast while we're doing the program

57:57

And we're pretty much out of time anyways, but the fact that's realized We are out of time, so we're gonna have to continue this folks.

58:02

This is a continuing developing story Thursday I'm gonna be in Massachusetts Looking at the book next

58:08

Tuesday. I will be able to give you more Obviously with the film being able to quote things and We'll be launching into this stuff

58:17

Pray for us as we do this this is an attack upon the very center of the Christian faith

58:22

But it's it's an attack that needs to be taken seriously responded to seriously But at the same time we need to see the sources these folks are using and that's what we're here for pray for us

58:32

Support us. We'll see you next week this time god bless We must contend for the faith of fathers fought for we need a new

59:00

Reformation The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 460 to or write us at PO box 37 106

59:41

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59:47

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