July 15, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor Mark Lukens on “The Love of God in the Salvation of Sinners”

The Program Introduction and the Theme of Iron Sharpens Iron

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth and listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of July 2015.

Before I even introduce my guest today and the topic that we are going to discuss, I'm going to ask for a very important prayer request from one of our listeners in the United Kingdom. A brother who wishes to remain anonymous sent me an email yesterday that he has been listening to the program since the first day that we relaunched in June and he has been very blessed by the program and he asked for our prayers for his wife who has terminal cancer and has been diagnosed as having only about two months to live.

So obviously I would ask all of you to lift up this brother and his wife in prayer and that he even miraculously would save this woman, would heal this woman I should say, and save her life from this deadly disease if that be his will, but that the Holy Spirit also prepares them for whatever may come to be and from what I understand this brother's wife is a believer and so give them the ability to actually come to perfect peace and knowing that she will be in the arms of her Savior even if the Lord chooses to call her home rather than heal her physically.

But as I said this brother lives in the United Kingdom and prefers to remain anonymous and he is a member of a very theologically sound church. He gave me the name and location of the church so it's good to know that he is being fed there and that his wife has been fed there as well.

Today we have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Mark Lukens. Pastor Mark Lukens is the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts. I'm sure I'm not pronouncing it the way that people in that area pronounce it but their website is providencebaptistchurchma, for Massachusetts, dot org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma dot org. Today we're discussing the love of God in the salvation of sinners, the roles of the Trinity in the redemption of man, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Mark Lukens.

And I assume I'm pronouncing your name correctly it's not Lukens it's Lukens correct? Yes. And I was also very delighted to hear just now before the program aired that Providence Baptist Church is going to become a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron and we're delighted to hear this wonderful news because we certainly need it and hope that you spread the word to others that are in the position of being capable of financially helping us with Iron Sharpens Iron.

And another bit of good news that's connected with that is that this Monday, God willing, Iron Sharpens Iron is being extended to a two-hour daily program at the request of the leading-edge radio network that carries us.

They are apparently thrilled with what we're doing here on Iron Sharpens Iron and want us to be a minimum of two hours daily from now on, so pray for that as well, but it also gives us a lot more room for sponsors.

Before I even get involved in the specific questions that I have for Pastor Mark on the topic, I'd like him to give our listeners a brief.

Explanation of Providence Baptist Church. Great. And one of my favorite booklets.

That I give out as often as I can when people are sick is a booklet that was given to me many years ago, about 35 years ago, when I was a brand-new believer and I was in bed sick with adult chicken pox.

And Marge Snyder Hegeman, who is a Christian recording artist, at least she used to be, in fact was very popular in the 60s and 70s and recorded an album with Grammy Award winners Brush Arbor. She gave me the booklet Sickness by J .C. Ryle, who was a great Anglican bishop in the 19th century, and I want to read this excerpt from it because it relates to our topic on the love of God and the salvation of sinners.

The booklet brings up the message that Martha and Mary sent to Jesus about Lazarus, their brother who was sick, and this is just prior to the miracle of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. And this is what J .C. Ryle says, Mark, the simple humility of their language about Lazarus.

They call him he whom thou lovest in their message to Jesus. Lord behold he whom thou lovest is sick. They did not say he who loves thee, believes in thee, serves thee, but he whom thou lovest. Martha and Mary were deeply taught of God.

They learned that Christ's love toward us and not our love towards Christ is the true ground of expectation and true foundation of hope. I thought that was very appropriate to read in light of our discussion, which I think is an excellent topic that our guest, Pastor Mark Lukens, chose on his own for our program today.

And the love of God and the salvation of sinners, obviously, Pastor Mark, before we go into the specific roles of each person in the Trinity or the Godhead, the love of God is something that is often mangled and twisted and spoken in a false and heretical way today, is it not, from the pulpits of perhaps even the majority of churches around the globe where a indiscriminate, egalitarian love of every human being is presented from the pulpit and there is no distinction between God's parental love for his own children and God's love through Christ as a spouse to his bride, the church.

You will have many preachers proclaiming that God loves those in hell in the same measure that he loves those who are his bride and his.

Children. If you could comment on that. Yeah, I think we have God's love for us in Christ and the work that Christ did give for the church is a special, unique.

Love that he does. Right, and there is some disagreements, even amongst those who would call themselves believers in the doctrines of grace or Calvinism or Reformed theology, about the manner in which God loves every human.

Being and in fact his creation. Does he love everyone whom he has created? Yeah, I hear today as they ponder their own salvation that God set his special effectual love on them. Amen, and one thing we have to make it clear to our.

Listeners that, especially in regard to the fact that we have already demonstrated that God has a particular or unique love for a certain group of people, meaning his bride or his children, they are not loved by God because of anything lovable in them, innately in their hearts or minds or.

Actions or beliefs, are they? No, definitely not. Amen. Well, why don't we go through the.

Persons of the Godhead one at a time, and of course I'm sure we're gonna be gliding back and forth as we discuss this, but you specifically wanted to address the unique way in which the love of God is demonstrated by each person of the Trinity.

So let's start with, obviously, God the Father and his unique role in the love of sinners towards, the love towards sinners in.

Salvation. Godhead, and we see that God the Father has elected and predestined and decreed from eternity past to save sinners in his work, angry against sin, but the God of the New Testament has loved sin against people.

About the love of God, it must be seen through the lens and the love that flutter in son and father. Yes,.

It does seem indeed odd at times, the way that the love of God is demonstrated by many pastors and preachers and evangelists. It almost seems, even though they might not ever say it in these words, it seems as if they are pitting the members of the Trinity against each other, as if God the Father wants to send everyone to hell and Jesus is bargaining with them and trying to save.

Everybody. Yes, I would agree with redemption. And let me repeat our email address if you'd.

Like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mark Lukens on the subject of the love of God and the salvation of sinners, the roles of the Trinity in the redemption of man. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com and please include your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside, if indeed you are outside of the USA.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com and if it's a personal and private reason that you are emailing us, you may remain anonymous if you choose to. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. So tell us now about how the Son, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ, how his love plays a unique role in the redemption of sinners.

And I mentioned before in the caricature or the false explanation of.

The love of God before that some have adopted that God is the wrathful element of the Trinity that wants everyone damned and Jesus wants everyone saved and therefore Jesus tries to save all that he can.

Now does Jesus ever try to. Now when you said how could he love us the way we are, there is an element of that that is true obviously if we believe in unconditional election and he chose us before the foundation of the world, would you not say that he loved us even before we did anything good or evil and in fact he demonstrated his love us while we were still dead in our trespasses and sins?

And although the dominant theology that seems to be proclaimed today is one of easy believism and cheap grace and salvation without repentance and so on, there are those who are fearful because they have reached a point in their life where they really believe that they are going to hell, their wickedness has overwhelmed them and they believe wrongly that before they could even come to Christ, and in their minds that would mean entering the doors of a church, they think that they have to first clean up their life in order to be acceptable to God.

That's not what we believe though is it?

No definitely, you cannot see the kingdom of God and you've got the mighty work of in the work of the Holy Spirit before we can even come to Christ, so yes it's it's again. Unfortunately sinners misunderstand the God and it's as if we got to make our own decisions.

And the scriptures don't they describe our righteousness as filthy rags especially in reference to our presenting them to God as if this somehow gains us favor with him?

Yes definitely, in their path, a way of peace, it's a listen.

Amen. And that's why John Newton who was a firm believer in the doctrines that we call the doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology or Calvinism, that's why he used the description of grace as amazing because when you lessen the severity of sin and man's wickedness you're really saying that God helped people along that were somewhat naughty but not very seriously bad and that makes grace not amazing at all, correct?

Obey God rather than seeing that he actually accomplished a subtle eternity and that's the beauty.

So the kindly old priest in the movie Boy's Town portrayed by Spencer Tracy when he said there is no bad boy I guess.

That was heresy wasn't it? And let me remind our listeners that Chris Arnzen.

At gmail .com is our email address if you have a question of your own for our guest Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and tell us about the scripture that he who has been forgiven much loves much, that seems to speak a lot, that's one of my favorite verses and a powerful verse.

Yes, he is a sinner and everyone knows that she's a sinner and yet Jesus is allowing her to touch him and to her tears. And the American Christians.

Yeah, that's in Luke 7 for those of you listening who want to look up the whole story behind that passage and that's very connected to the fact that grace, the grace, the version of grace, the false great version of grace that is preached by many pulpits is not really amazing because they lower man's sin to such a low rung of seriousness and wickedness that people aren't really that impressed when they hear the message of the cross.

In fact before we go to the break I want to have something I want to give you something to think about. Don't you think that one of the dangers in telling every single human being that you meet regardless of who they are or regardless of if you know them or not, that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, isn't that message that is indiscriminately given to everyone by many people who profess to be Christians, isn't that really just a another reason for them not to repent because if God loves them so much as they are right now then I must be safe then that must be I must be okay with God if if he loves me as much as he loves you and in the same way then what what do I need to change for but I'll let you respond to that after we return with after this station break from one of the many folks that have been helping us out since the relaunch of Iron Sharpens Iron and we just thank Lindbrook Baptist Church being one who has helped us from the inception of this program and and don't go away we'll be.

Right back. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than.

A Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym.

Where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like.

A hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and.

Healing. We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord.

Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together. Hi. I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all.

That a church can be. Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit LindbrookBaptist .org.

That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Introducing 1031 Sermon Jams. But now for the good news that sounds like sweet music in the hell-bound sinner's ears especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are.

If you would like to learn more about 1031 Sermon Jams visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Welcome back this is Chris Zarnes and if you've just tuned.

In to Iron Sharpens Iron today. Our guest today is Pastor Mark Lukens the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts and the website for that church is ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA for Massachusetts .org.

ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org and also congratulations are in order for Pastor Mark Lukens and his wife. You have just reached a remarkable milestone in the adoption.

Process haven't you? Yes. I am thrilled for you and please pray for the Lukens.

Family as this little one is going to be welcomed into their household very soon by the grace and mercy of God. I also want to let you folks know that tomorrow my new friend Pastor Keith Foskey of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville Florida will be on the program and the day after tomorrow on Friday the 17th of July Kareem Shamsi Basha a former Muslim who came to Christ by his grace and mercy will be giving his testimony on the broadcast as well so mark your calendars for that and I hope you tune in tomorrow.

Let me repeat our email address ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com if you have a question for our guest Mark Lukens on the love of God in the salvation of sinners and before the break.

Pastor Mark I brought up the indiscriminate way that many Christians believe is the correct way to evangelize and also their duty to evangelize the lost by telling anybody that they meet that God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their life or something similar to that.

And is that a dangerous way to evangelize the lost and is it even remotely biblical?

...decree of God and I've read it and I understand that your name's on it so I'm going to tell you I think it's very people mean well I think by by saying it but God loves them. As a witness we should show the blackness of that comment.

Christ came to die for everyone and it's...

And when you say limited atonement you're talking about the scope of the atonement the number of people for whom it was intended and for whom it was it was successfully completed and accomplished not the power of the atonement.

In fact it was Spurgeon who said that the Arminians have the very limited atonement because it's limited in its power because most of the people for whom they believe it was intended will be lost.

...spirit comes to regenerate that same God. We don't pit as we said earlier we don't pit the father against the son against the father and son. You God work on the spirit. I I wish everyone to be saved but like you said God the father's mean he wants to send everybody to hell.

I I think people misunderstand that they.

Misunderstand. An anonymous listener wants to know if you are standing before the judgment throne of God and you find out that you are not of the elect that sends fear into a lot of people's hearts because they're worried that they were not chosen and they are worried that no matter how much they love and follow Christ on earth that it may be all for nothing and that they will be damned.

Though first of all isn't that scenario something that will never take place that you will never have somebody who loves Christ and follows him and obeys him who will be cast into hell because isn't that the one of the great.

Evidences that they are a child of God are the elect of God because you received our word God not the word loving them. When people run to Christ judgment day that said I wanted to love Christ I wanted to fall in the son the toast out as Jonah said so long ago God and man working together God Almighty declaring I will save a people from my own glory conquering grace and his love is a conquering love and it actually accomplishes what he desires it to accomplish.

God will never be frustrated. He's not a little old man up in heaven wringing his hand saying oh I wish I could save little Johnny but he won't come Holy Spirit he will come willing of the praise and glory of God going back.

To the Holy Spirit perhaps one of the most confusing subjects within Christendom is the subject of the person and work of the Holy Spirit and although the Holy Spirit is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father and the Son is his primarily is his role primarily involved in drawing attention or focus.

To himself from the Father and God which is the folly people now going to.

Specifically the love of the Holy Spirit. You and I believe that the ordo salutis or the order of salvation involves the Holy Spirit regenerating dead sinners before then they actually can even believe savingly.

And some people look upon that as God forcing people against their will to believe in Christ. But that's that's not at all what we were saying or what the Bible.

Teaches correct. We have a listener in Queens New York Scott who says I.

Actually do agree with all that is being said but just wanted to say that while there is a difference in our understanding various types of love God is not limited by our limited understanding for example the love of Jesus felt for the unsaved and unrepentant rich young ruler is the same word to describe the love towards the woman at Simon's house the word love in John 316 and to describe the father's love for the son in John 15 at 9.

If you could comment on that that was more of a statement than a question.

We're gonna go to our final. Yes excellent. We're gonna go to our final.

Break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for us pastor Scott Lukens of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts. And by the way am I butchering badly the city in which your state.

Okay Massachusetts. If you have a question for him regarding the love of God and the salvation of sinners the roles of the Trinity in the redemption of man. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please provide your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If outside the USA we'll be right back with pastor Scott Lukens. I'm James White.

Of Alpha Omega Ministries the New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in-depth study. Used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation the NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print Bibles.

Find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NASBible .com. Trust. Discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to NASBible .com.

That's NASBible .com. Tired of bop store Christianity of doing church in a house with all the trappings of a rock concert. Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship. And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen if you've just tuned us in.

Our guest today is Pastor Mark Lukens of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts. Their website is Providence Baptist Church ma .org. We are discussing the love of God and the salvation of sinners the roles of the Trinity in the redemption of man.

And we were just discussing before the break how our limited understanding of God and his love cannot jam God in a box as well. Now of course that is true that God is far beyond our comprehension and it's a very dangerous and heretical thing to think that we've got him completely figured out.

But he does reveal adequate knowledge for us to glean and embrace.

And live by in his word doesn't it. Yes definitely. A glorious picture of the conquering love of great for as we are and God's elect was raised who is at the right hand of God who is separate us from the love of Christ.

And or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake we are being killed all the day long we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered things. In other words Paul's answering all the previous questions nor life nor angels nor rule nor depth or anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the living Christ condemnation and in unto death because they cannot be glory.

Amen. And we have another comment from Scott in Queens New York. Excellent.

Response. And wanted to point out the love of Jesus rebuking harshly the Pharisees Peter saying to treat unrepentant brother as heathen and Paul turning some out of the church over to Satan. Doesn't this replace or I'm sorry.

Doesn't this relate to what you just said about gay marriage. Responses. Amen to.

What you said. Yes definitely. Who saves the status church and holds who will come and pour out the wrath of God. About sin. But it is not wrong to talk about sin. It is actually loving and I would agree with that.

I would agree with Scott that they are dead in their sin right. And in fact I know I keep repeating this.

This podcast I heard on my show but because I just found it very remarkable in our day and age coming from the lips of an atheist but the very well-known magician Penn Jillette who is not only an atheist but he can be quite vulgar at times but he on his podcast spoke of a man who presented a Bible to him after his performance in Vegas at one time and he was very moved by this man's compassion for him even if he didn't believe in the God that this man loved or the Bible that this man gave him.

And he Penn Jillette even said if you believe that you must have faith in God in order to not only avoid damnation but inherent eternal life how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them.

That. And no no you got that. I think in the gospel thing that we don't really love that we just can they hear if no one preaches how can they preach if no one sends by hearing. Hearing. But we all unless we're living in the cave.

Somewhere or do not own you know TV sets or computers or radios we or read newspapers or magazines. We all know about the God hates fags group which eventually even had such hate in them that they even excommunicated their own founder.

I think because he thought that there should be more love demonstrated amongst the congregation. But anyway that is obviously the extreme that you and I and everyone that we hold to be legitimate Christians would would look upon with disgust and horror.

In fact I would be fairly certain you agree that these people are demonstrating that they are likely not regenerate people. They are likely still dead in their trespasses and sins themselves because they seem to have a delight in the wicked going to hell.

But obviously since we are not to be going to that extreme wouldn't you say that there also seems to be a very prevalent tendency in modern evangelicalism to go the opposite extreme in regard to the way love is spoken about and demonstrated.

In regard for instance to homosexuality Christians are sinners and we're never going to have the perfect balance struck in regard to the abhorrence and hatred of sin and the love and compassion towards sinners.

What practical counsel and advice can you give us in that regard. As we try not to be too soft when we speak to the homosexuals and even our friends who condone them and heartily approve them. And also at the same time the fact that we must never forget that we are sinners and that we have delivered delivered only by God's grace.

Their natural hatred and one of opposition and one of rebellion. It causes us to be able to look at people that are still there with compassion. If we forget that God saved us from sin because we were sinners then we can look upon them like Pharisees and say hey you should be good like me.

And again makes it abundantly clear it did not save us. We would have been eternally condemned because and I think you you were in Kansas that that displays their hatred. I think they say they're exposing sinful way that is not Christian that is not an offense upon those that would desire.

Causes other people to do a knee jerk reaction say who. I don't want to be that offensive so I'm not going to expose sin. So yes I think the majority of people that act that way are not believers or their believers.

And they're hung up in and in 30 seconds.

Those who are listening who may believe that they are beyond all hope because of the wickedness that has dominated their own life. What do you have to say to them.

Greatest sinner that has ever lived on this earth. And excuse I'm too sinful to be saved. That's just their flesh. Continuing to rebel against God continuing to have a low view of Christ of the church near that person would preach the true gospel of grace that Christ is able to save.

I want to thank.

You so much for being my guest today pastor Mark Lukens and I want to repeat the website of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts Providence Baptist Church ma dot o-r-g when I thank everybody for listening especially those who wrote emails and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.