July 15, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor Mark Lukens on “The Love of God in the Salvation of Sinners”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth and listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnton your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of July 2015.

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Before I even introduce my guest today and the topic that we are going to discuss, I'm going to ask for a very important prayer request from one of our listeners in the

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United Kingdom. A brother who wishes to remain anonymous sent me an email yesterday that he has been listening to the program since the first day that we relaunched in June and he has been very blessed by the program and he asks for our prayers for his wife who has terminal cancer and has been diagnosed as having only about two months to live.

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So obviously I would ask all of you to lift up this brother and his wife in prayer and that he even miraculously would save this woman, would heal this woman

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I should say and save her life from this deadly disease if that be his will but that the

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Holy Spirit also prepares them for whatever may come to be. And from what

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I understand this brother's wife is a believer and so give them the ability to actually come to perfect peace and knowing that she will be in the arms of her savior even if the

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Lord chooses to call her home rather than heal her physically. But as I said this brother lives in the

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United Kingdom and prefers to remain anonymous and he is a member of a very theologically sound church.

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He gave me the name and location of the church so it's good to know that he is being fed there and that his wife has been fed there as well.

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Today we have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Mark Lukens.

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Pastor Mark Lukens is the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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I'm sure I'm not pronouncing it the way that people in that area pronounce it but their website is providencebaptistchurchma .org.

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That's providencebaptistchurchma .org. Today we're discussing the love of God in the salvation of sinners, the roles of the trinity in the redemption of man, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Mark Lukens.

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Thanks Chris. It's good to be your guest. And I assume I'm pronouncing your name correctly. It's not Lukens, it's

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Lukens, correct? Yes, yeah Lukens is correct. And I was also very delighted to hear just now before the program aired that Providence Baptist Church is going to become a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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And we're delighted to hear this wonderful news because we certainly need it and hope that you spread the word to others that are in the position of being capable of financially helping us with Iron Sharpens Iron.

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And another bit of good news that's connected with that is that this

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Monday, God willing, Iron Sharpens Iron is being extended to a two -hour daily program at the request of the leading edge radio network that carries us.

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They are apparently thrilled with what we're doing here on Iron Sharpens Iron and want us to be a minimum of two hours daily from now on.

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So pray for that as well, but it also gives us a lot more room for sponsors. Before I even get involved in the specific questions that I have for Pastor Mark on the topic,

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I'd like him to give our listeners a brief explanation of Providence Baptist Church. Providence Baptist Church is a fairly new church plant back in 2003.

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We're a Reformed Baptist church and we hold to the 1689 London Confession of Faith.

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Great. And one of my favorite booklets that I give out as often as I can when people are sick is a booklet that was given to me many years ago, about 35 years ago when

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I was a brand new believer and I was in bed sick with adult chicken pox.

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And Marge Snyder Hegeman, who is a Christian recording artist, at least she used to be, in fact, was very popular in the 60s and 70s and recorded an album with Grammy Award winners

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Brush Arbor. She gave me the booklet Sickness by J .C. Ryle, who was a great

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Anglican bishop in the 19th century. And I want to read this excerpt from it because it relates to our topic on the love of God and the salvation of sinners.

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The booklet brings up the message that Martha and Mary sent to Jesus about Lazarus, their brother who was sick.

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And this is just prior to the miracle of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.

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And this is what J .C. Ryle says, Mark the simple humility of their language about Lazarus.

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They call him he whom thou lovest in their message to Jesus.

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Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. They did not say he who loves thee, believes in thee, serves thee, but he whom thou lovest.

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Martha and Mary were deeply taught of God. They learned that Christ's love toward us and not our love towards Christ is the true ground of expectation and true foundation of hope.

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I thought that was very appropriate to read in light of our discussion, which

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I think is an excellent topic that our guest, Pastor Mark Lukens, chose on his own for our program today.

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And the love of God and the salvation of sinners, obviously, Pastor Mark, before we go into the specific roles of each person in the

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Trinity or the Godhead, the love of God is something that is often mangled and twisted and spoken in a false and heretical way today, is it not, from the pulpits of perhaps even the majority of churches around the globe where an indiscriminate, egalitarian love of every human being is presented from the pulpit, and there is no distinction between God's parental love for his own children and God's love through Christ as a spouse to his bride, the church.

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You will have many preachers proclaiming that God loves those in hell in the same measure that he loves those who are his bride and his children.

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If you could comment on that. Yeah, I think we need to start with the understanding that God loves himself, and I think that's something that's often overlooked, and if God is holy and God loves himself, the love between the

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Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, if that love is perfect, he can't love sin, because it's opposite of himself, and so when we read in scriptures, it's always a reference of God's love for us in Christ, and the work that Christ did gives

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God the ability to love sinners in a way that doesn't dishonor his name, because yes, you're definitely right,

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God's love for the church is a special, unique love that he does not love all of humanity the same way.

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Right, and there is some disagreements even amongst those who would call themselves believers in the doctrines of grace or Calvinism or reformed theology about the manner in which

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God loves every human being and in fact his creation. Does he love everyone whom he has created?

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Yeah, I think there's a creator love that he cares for the creation. The Bible talks about him sending rain and sunshine on the just and the unjust, and the wicked and the righteous both have children, and obviously he sustains life of all mankind, so there is a creator love, a divine providence for which he cares for all his creation, because again, his character is loving, but the special, salvific, and I would even say effectual love, because I don't believe that God ever sets his love on someone and fails to save them, and I hope that's what people hear today as they ponder their own salvation, that God set his special, effectual love on them, and therefore they were saved.

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We must start with God if we're going to talk about salvation rather than man's decision, or man's prayers, or man's repentance.

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The beauty of the gospel is that God loved people even while they were yet sinners and dead in their trespasses, but he did so in Christ to show his hatred of sin, but also towards the love of his church, as you said earlier.

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Amen, and one thing we have to make it clear to our listeners that, especially in regard to the fact that we have already demonstrated that God has a particular or unique love for a certain group of people, meaning his bride or his children, they are not loved by God because of anything lovable in them, innately in their hearts or minds or actions or beliefs, are they?

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No, definitely not. Let me read the beginning of Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus.

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He says, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

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In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has loved us in the

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Beloved. So all the blessings that come to the believer, all the blessings that are included in the glorious gospel of grace, they all are for the sinner because of the work and person of Jesus Christ.

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The sinner only brings sin and rebellion to the table, and yet God is merciful and gracious because of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Well, why don't we go through the persons of the Godhead one at a time, and of course,

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I'm sure we're going to be gliding back and forth as we discuss this, but you specifically wanted to address the unique way in which the love of God is demonstrated by each person of the

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Trinity. So let's start with, obviously, God the Father and his unique role in the love towards sinners in salvation.

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Yes, the love of the Father is first seen in Revelation for the love that he has for the

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Son and the love that he has for the Holy Spirit, that divine unity, that divine love in the

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Godhead. And we see that God the Father has elected and predestined and decreed from eternity past to save sinners in his

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Son as Christ comes in the Incarnation to save sinners. And so the covenant that he makes with the

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Son before the foundation of the world is a covenant of love between the

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Father and the Son to work for the salvation of sinners. And again, we need to start with God first because so many today want to say, well, the

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God of the Old Testament is angry against sin, but the God of the New Testament is loving and kind and doesn't hold sin against people, and that's just a twisting and a distortion of Scripture.

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And so when we talk about the love of God, it must be seen through the lens of the work in person of Christ and the love that flows first between Father and Son and Father and Holy Spirit.

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Yes, it does seem indeed odd at times the way that the love of God is demonstrated by many pastors and preachers and evangelists.

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It almost seems, even though they might not ever say it in these words, it seems as if they are pitting the members of the

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Trinity against each other as if God the Father wants to send everyone to hell and Jesus is bargaining with him and trying to save everybody.

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Yes, I would agree with that statement, unfortunately, that there is a vast majority of what's called

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Christianity in America that does divide the Trinity and think that they're exalting the love of God in doing so.

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If we destroy the Trinity, there is no love, there is no salvation, and there is no joy for the believer.

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We must see the triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit all unified in this work of redemption.

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And let me repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mark Lukens on the subject of the love of God and the salvation of sinners, the roles of the

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Trinity in the redemption of man. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please include your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside if indeed you are outside of the

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USA. chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And if it's a personal and private reason that you are emailing us, you may remain anonymous if you choose to.

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com. So tell us now about how the

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Son, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ, uh, how his love plays a unique role in the redemption of sinners.

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Yes. And in John 3, 16, one of the, you know, favorite passages for people to quote, we hear that God so loved the world that he sent his son, but we often don't ponder what that means that the son doesn't come merely by the

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Father sending him, but he also comes because he willingly and lovingly wants to come. And, and if we try to pit that the

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Father is sending a son and he's digging his heels in, no, I don't want to come. Then we're not seeing that beautiful unity that, that is in the

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Trinity. And so the Son comes as an act of love towards the Father and throughout his earthly ministry in the incarnation, he repeats time and time again,

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I did not come to do my will, but I came to do the will of the Father. And yet you see in scripture that the will of the

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Father and the will of the Son is the same. And so in the covenant of redemption that the

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Father makes with the Son, the Son willingly obeys the Father. The Son willingly comes to save a people for the glory of God.

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He willingly comes in the incarnation. He willingly comes lovingly and lives a righteous life for the honor of God.

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But also he knows that that righteousness is the righteousness that will be offered in the gospel.

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In love, he comes to die as the perfect lamb of God. In love, he was raised from the dead by God.

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In love, he ascended to the Father. In love, he lives to intercede for all his children, all his bride.

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And in love, he stands as our mediator and our great shepherd of the sheep. And again, the love of the

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Son shows the love of the Father. As Jesus talked to Philip, he said, if you've seen me, you've seen the

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Father. So as we study the New Testament, as we study the work in person of Christ, God is actually revealing the characteristic of God in totality.

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The Son is the one that came in the incarnation, but all that he is, he is the direct representation of God the

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Father. He is the image of God in all its glory. And I mentioned before in the caricature or the false explanation of the love of God before that some have adopted that God is the wrathful element of the

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Trinity that wants everyone damned and Jesus wants everyone saved.

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And therefore, Jesus tries to save all that he can.

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Now, does Jesus ever try to do anything? I would say that if Jesus tries, he always accomplishes.

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His work of redemption is perfect. It's effectual. It's efficient. Even in the doctrine of the resurrection, we must understand that it's the

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Father standing before all of creation saying, this is my Son in whom I'm well pleased.

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Everything that he did, everything that he accomplished is good in my eyes. And he raises him from the grave to say to the world, he's perfect.

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He's sinless. He's obedient. And again, that's part of the good news of the gospel that often gets left out.

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Many people say, well, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life and he loves you just the way you are. Well, if God loves us just the way we are as sinners, then why did

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Christ have to come and live? And why did Christ have to come and die? The reason him coming and him dying is because we have no righteousness of our own and we have no way to make an atonement for our sin.

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Even in the life of Christ, we see God's hatred of sin, but we also see God's love for his children.

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Now, when you said, how could he love us the way we are?

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There is an element of that that is true. Obviously, if we believe in unconditional election and he chose us before the foundation of the world, would you not say that he loved us even before we did anything good or evil?

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And in fact, he demonstrated his love toward us while we were still dead in our trespasses and sins?

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Yes, his love of the church is, again, in Christ Jesus.

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So before the foundation of the world, Revelation says Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

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There was a time and space where Christ actually came and actually lived and actually died on the cross.

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But part of the decree of God is the electing of the son to be the lamb and a part of his decree is the electing of those to be saved.

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And yes, there is definitely the love of God involved in that. And yet, even in the electing of those to be saved, it's always in Christ.

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We were never elected to be saved because we were good and perfect people. God wasn't surprised by the fall.

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God wasn't surprised by the rebellion of Adam. And yet, before any of that took place, God in his perfect holiness and his perfect love elected a people for the glory of his name from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation.

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And although the dominant theology that seems to be proclaimed today is one of easy believism and cheap grace and salvation without repentance and so on, there are those who are fearful because they have reached a point in their life where they really believe that they are going to hell, their wickedness has overwhelmed them, and they believe wrongly that before they could even come to Christ, and in their minds, that would mean entering the doors of a church, they think that they have to first clean up their life in order to be acceptable to God.

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That's not what we believe, though, is it? No, definitely not. I think that's a perfect segue into the love of the

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Holy Spirit. You know, Jesus says, unless you are born again to Nicodemus, you cannot see the kingdom of God, and you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

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And again, the Holy Spirit is a person, and he willingly comes to accomplish the will of the

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Father and the will of the Son. In love, he regenerates and applies the work of Christ of salvation for sinners.

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In other words, if the Holy Spirit didn't cause us to be born again, we would never run to Christ in the first place.

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So for someone to think that they can clean themselves up and make themselves presentable to Christ without the work of the

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Holy Spirit is a defense against the Trinity. Only the work of the Holy Spirit can ready us to even cry out to be saved.

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Only the work of the Holy Spirit can grant us the gift of faith so that we can even see that Christ is altogether lovely in the offer of the gospel.

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So it takes the mighty work of God in raising the spiritual dead in the work of the

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Holy Spirit before we can even come to Christ. So yes, again, unfortunately, sinners misunderstand the gospel because so many preachers falsely preach the gospel, and it's as if we've got to make ourselves well before we go to the doctor.

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And as the old hymn says, if we think that we can make ourselves fit and ready to come before we come, we'll never come.

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And the scriptures, don't they describe our righteousness as filthy rags, especially in reference to our presenting them to God as if this somehow gains us favor with him?

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Yes, definitely. In the book of Romans in chapter 3, Paul is very clear of the human condition.

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And let me just read that as I turn there. He says, none is righteous, no, not one.

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No one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside. Together they have become worthless.

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No one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive.

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The venom of Asp is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.

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Their feet are swift to shed blood. In their paths are ruin and misery. And the way of peace they have not known.

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There is no fear of God before their eyes. That's the natural condition of fallen man.

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God created Adam, righteous, holy, good, loving God, loving his wife. And the moment that Adam and Eve decided to listen to the false words of the devil, the moment they decided to seek their own autonomy from God, all of humanity plunged with them into a state of total depravity.

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And yes, men are not righteous and cannot come in their own ability to God. God must open their eyes.

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He must raise them from the dead spiritually for them to enter into his presence. Amen. And that's why

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John Newton, who was a firm believer in the doctrines that we call the doctrines of sovereign grace or reform theology or Calvinism, that's why he used the description of grace as amazing.

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Because when you lessen the severity of sin and man's wickedness, you're really saying that God helped people along that were somewhat naughty, but not very seriously bad.

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And that makes grace not amazing at all, correct? Correct. And that's why so many today that are part of liberal

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Christianity teach that Christ merely came to be a good example of love and merely came to be a good example of how to love and obey

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God, rather than seeing that he actually came to earn our righteousness and to accomplish a substitutionary atonement.

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If God's wrath is not appeased in the death of Christ, then we will stand at odds with God for all eternity.

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And that's the beauty of the gospel, that if we want to see Christ high and lifted up and sufficient and effectual, we must start off with man being dead in their sins and trespasses.

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And again, most people start with man being basically good. They just need a nudge. They have this

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God light inside of them that just needs to be awakened, and they can save themselves. And they may even use the term faith and grace, but they don't mean what the

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Bible means about faith and grace. And it's very sad when you hear preaching like that. So the kindly old priest in the movie

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Boy's Town, portrayed by Spencer Tracy, when he said, there is no bad boy,

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I guess that was heresy, wasn't it? Yes, I was reading a quote the other day in a book by Jeffrey Johnson, The Kingdom of God, and he said,

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Adam and Eve had no idea that when they listened to the lies of the devil, that they just made their children and their grandchildren miserable monsters.

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I thought that was a great description, that the goodness and kindness of God seen in Adam and Eve before the fall was destroyed in an act of rebellion.

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Wow, amen. And let me remind our listeners that chrisarnson at gmail .com

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is our email address if you have a question of your own for our guest, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And tell us about the scripture that he who has been forgiven much loves much.

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That seems to speak a lot. That's one of my favorite verses and a powerful verse.

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Yes, the backdrop is there, is he's at someone else's house that's prepared a meal for him, and this person was supposed to be a big religious leader, and yet he didn't love

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Christ. And this woman comes in who's a prostitute and is a sinner, and everyone knows that she's a sinner, and yet Jesus is allowing her to touch him and to minister to him and to wash his feet with her tears.

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And his rebuke is, those that have been forgiven much love much, and she's a picture of one that's been forgiven, and he's a religiously lost hypocrite who thinks he's saved by his genealogy or saved by his own actions, and therefore doesn't love

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Christ with a love that understands that he's been saved from the pit of hell. And I think the lack of love inside the

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American Christian church shows that we don't really believe that Christ did a miracle to save us.

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Amen. Right, that is a great passage, I love that passage. Yeah, that's in Luke 7 for those of you listening who want to look up the whole story behind that passage.

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And that's very connected to the fact that grace, the grace, the version of grace, the false version of grace that is preached by many pulpits is not really amazing because they lower man's sin to such a low rung of seriousness and wickedness that people aren't really that impressed when they hear the message of the cross.

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And in fact, before we go to the break, I want to have something, I want to give you something to think about.

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Don't you think that one of the dangers in telling every single human being that you meet, regardless of who they are, or regardless of if you know them or not, that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

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Isn't that message that is indiscriminately given to everyone by many people who profess to be

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Christians, isn't that really just another reason for them not to repent?

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Because if God loves them so much as they are right now, then

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I must be safe then. I must be okay with God. If he loves me as much as he loves you and in the same way, then what do

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I need to change for? But I'll let you respond to that after we return after this station break from one of the many folks that have been helping us out since the relaunch of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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And we just thank Linbrook Baptist Church being one who has helped us from the inception of this program.

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And don't go away, we'll be right back. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching

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God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

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It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

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It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing. We're a diverse family of all ages.

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Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Introducing 1031

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Sermon Jams. Sermon Jams. But now for the good news. That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

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Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you would like to learn more about 1031

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Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

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It's about God and his glory and the gospel is about man and his sin. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron today, our guest today is Pastor Mark Lukens, the pastor of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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And the website for that church is ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA for Massachusetts .org.

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ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org. And also, congratulations are in order for Pastor Mark Lukens and his wife.

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You have just reached a remarkable milestone in the adoption process.

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What's your message to this community Yes. On the end of this month, we will be adopting a little boy and we're very excited about that.

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It took a long time to get all the paperwork done and yet God is gracious and he's brought this to fruition.

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So we're really blessed. I am thrilled for you. And please pray for the

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Lukens family as this little one is going to be welcomed into their household very soon by the grace and mercy of God.

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I also want to let you folks know that tomorrow my new friend

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Pastor Keith Foskey of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville Florida will be on the program and the day after tomorrow on Friday the 17th of July Kareem Shamsi Basha, a former

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Muslim who came to Christ by his grace and mercy will be giving his testimony on the broadcast as well so mark your calendars for that and I hope you tune in tomorrow.

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Let me repeat our email address ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

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if you have a question for our guest Mark Lukens on the love of God in the salvation of sinners and before the break

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Pastor Mark I brought up the indiscriminate way that many

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Christians believe is the correct way to evangelize and also their duty to evangelize the lost by telling anybody that they meet that God loves them and has a wonderful plan for their life or something similar to that and is that a dangerous way to evangelize the lost and is it even remotely biblical?

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No I don't believe it is I think that we should be able to declare without hesitation that Christ came to save sinners such as us but to say to an individual

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I know he came to save you is to almost say I have a I have an inside track on the decree of God and I've read it and I understand that your name's on it so I'm going to tell you that he's going to save you

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I think it's very people mean well I think by by saying it but in their saying it they again as you said they encourage people to stay in their sin because if God loves them as a reprobate if God loves them as an active sinner who loves sin then what is holiness what is righteousness what is the gospel saving us from and so I think that you know

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Paul says it very well he came to save sinners of which I am foremost I think that's a great way to witness we should see each of us should see ourselves as the chief of sinners because we know the blackness of our own heart better than anybody else we know that our heart is more wicked than anybody's actions that we've ever seen but yeah we have to be careful not to assume the place of God and assume that we know the hidden mind of God I believe in a limited atonement

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I believe that Christ came to save a specific group of people I do not believe in universalism and to me that comment lends itself to universalism that Christ came to die for everyone and it's up to you whether you get on the bus and I just don't think that's

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God honoring because I don't think that's what the Bible teaches that the plan of God actually was and when you say limited atonement you're talking about the scope of the atonement the number of people for whom it was intended and for whom it was it was successfully completed and accomplished not the power of the atonement in fact it was

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Spurgeon who said that the Arminians have the very limited atonement because it's limited in its power because most of the people for whom they believe it was intended will be lost yes and back to our topic of the love of God if we understand that the father elected the elect a group of people to be saved the son came to die for that exact same exact group of people and the

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Holy Spirit comes to regenerate that same group of people we see that beautiful unity that the father the son and the

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Holy Spirit are all active in our salvation therefore we praise the triune God we don't pit as we said earlier we don't put the father against the son or the

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Holy Spirit against the father and son but we see the whole triune God working our salvation and they're in unity they don't have different desires the son's not oh

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I'm on the cross trying to save everyone but I fail and all I'm the spirit I I wish everyone to be saved but like you said

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God the father's mean he wants to send everybody to hell I I think people misunderstand the Trinity and therefore they misunderstand the beauty of God in salvation an anonymous listener wants to know if you are standing before the judgment throne of God and you find out that you are not of the elect that sends fear into a lot of people's hearts because they're worried that they were not chosen and they are worried that no matter how much they love and follow

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Christ on earth that it may be all for nothing and that they will be damned first of all isn't that scenario something that will never take place that you will never have somebody who loves

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Christ and follows him and obeys him who will be cast into hell because isn't that the one of the great evidences that they are a child of God yes

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I think that I have heard that argument before but again it starts with the premise that people are basically good they can follow

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God if they want to and then later you find out who the elect is but Paul says to the Thessalonians we know that you are the elect of God because you received our word as if it was the very word of God not the words of men so when people love

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God that's the evidence of God loving them when people run to Christ to be saved that's the evidence that God is drawing them by the

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Spirit to himself so there will be no one at the judgment day that said I wanted to love Christ I wanted to follow him

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I wanted to be saved but he wouldn't let me the Bible says all those that come to me will be saved but we also want to affirm that only those that the

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Spirit draws only those that the son that told for and only those that the father elected will ever come so we can preach the gospel freely we can we can freely offer the gospel but we must understand that self as Jonah said so long ago salvation is of the

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Lord it's not God and man working together hoping for a good outcome it's God Almighty declaring before the foundation of the world

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I will save a from my own glory even though man loves themselves loves to sin loves to rebel against me and his grace is a conquering grace and his love is a conquering love and it actually accomplishes what he desires it to accomplish

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God will never be frustrated he's not a little old man up in heaven ringing his hand saying oh

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I wish I could save little Johnny but he won't come little Johnny if he is being worked on by the

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Holy Spirit he will come willingly and joyfully for the praise and glory of God going back to the

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Holy Spirit perhaps one of the most confusing subjects within Christendom is the subject of the person and work of the

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Holy Spirit and although the Holy Spirit is co -eternal and co -equal with the

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Father and the Son is his primarily is his role primarily involved in drawing attention or focus to himself again

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I think you would understand that to be true in some of the charismatic circles it's all about the

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Holy Spirit it's all about his working as if it's against the Father I think the scriptures are clear the

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Spirit comes to do the will of the Father and to do the will of the Son because he desires to do their will because their will is his will so again no we are not to praise the

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Holy Spirit as if he's separate from the Father and Son but we are to praise the triune God which is the

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Father Son and Holy Spirit again that there's no disunity and again so many people either only worship the

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Spirit only worship the Son or only worship the Father and again the Bible you know would call that a very severe error because God has revealed himself and we do not have the right to separate them as if they're three separate gods there is one

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God existing in three persons now going to specifically the love of the

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Holy Spirit you and I believe that the ordo salutis or the order of salvation involves the

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Holy Spirit regenerating dead sinners before then they actually can even believe savingly and some people look upon that as God forcing people against their will to believe in Christ but that's that's not at all what we were saying or what the

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Bible teaches correct correct when the Holy Spirit regenerates a sinner he actually frees them to give them to be able to love

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God and to follow Christ and I do definitely agree that regeneration must precede faith if faith is first then man has something to boast in other words a sinful man believes in God and then

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God regenerates him how is that not a work that man can boast and how can you not look at another person and say well just believe in him and do your job and then

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God will do his if God does not regenerate the sinner the sinner will never run to Christ and I believe that's why the preaching of the

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Word of God is so important not tricks not gimmicks not little one -liners to try to get people to pray the pray the prayer but by preaching the

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Word of God God has promised by the by the preaching of the Word that the Holy Spirit will come and take that word use it as a sword do surgery on the human heart and set that sinner free so that he freely believes he freely repents and he freely runs to Christ but he could never do that unless the

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Holy Spirit lovingly regenerates us we have a listener in Queens New York Scott who says

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I actually do agree with all that is being said but just wanted to say that while there is a difference in our understanding various types of love

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God is not limited by our limited understanding for example the love of Jesus felt for the unsaved and unrepentant rich young ruler is the same word to describe the love towards the woman at Simon's house the word love in John 3 16 and to describe the father's love for the son in John 15 9 if you could comment on that that was more of a statement than a question yeah

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I think that we can call the activity of God loving in other words the world says don't tell me about my sin the world says don't tell me that I'm that I did wrong don't tell me

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I need to repent but when we witness to a lost person and tell them the truth about Christ and we preach the gospel to them it is loving them so Christ in loving that rich young ruler tells him the truth it doesn't mean that he loved him with an effectual love and failed it just means he was loving when he exposed his sin of loving money exposed his sin of being an idolater of loving his riches and loving all that he has and that's why the man went away sad because he looked at what

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Christ said follow me and you'll be set free and he went away sad because he couldn't let go of his riches so yes

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I've heard people use that that if that's the love of God then God fails in saving that sinner how can we say that and I think again our witnessing to the loss is a loving act and I think

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Christ was loving that sinner by telling him the truth but I wouldn't go to that passage to talk about the effectual love of God for salvation we're gonna go to our final

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John John 6 would be a perfect place to see the love of God in actuality where the father draws and the son saves and will raise them up in the last day yes excellent we're gonna go to our final break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for us pastor

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Scott Lukens of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts and by the way am I butchering badly the city in which your state

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Massachusetts if you have a question for him regarding the love of God and the salvation of sinners the roles of the

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Trinity in the redemption of man our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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and please provide your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if outside the

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USA we'll be right back with pastor Scott Lukens I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries the

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tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island well there's good news

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46:56

that's wrbc .us welcome back this is

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Chris Arns and if you've just tuned us in our guest today is Pastor Mark Lukens of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts their website is providencebaptistchurchma .org

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we are discussing the love of God and the salvation of sinners the roles of the

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Trinity in the redemption of man and we were just discussing before the break how our limited understanding of God and his love cannot jam

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God in a box as well now of course that is true that God is far beyond our comprehension and it's a dangerous and heretical thing to think that we've got him completely figured out but he does reveal adequate knowledge for us to glean and embrace and live by in his word doesn't it yes definitely

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I think we saw that tension when the Supreme Court made the decision about homosexual unions you know everybody was texting and tweeting you know love wins love wins meaning love gives permission to sin but if we look at love from God's perspective love does whatever it takes to conquer sin to expose sin to set sinners free from their sin

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I just want to read a section from Romans 8 because I think it paints a glorious picture of the conquering love of God it says likewise the

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Spirit helps us in our weakness for we do not know what to pray for as we ought but the

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Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words and he searches hearts knows what is in the mind of the

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Spirit because the Spirit intercedes for the Saints according to the will of God and we know that for those who love

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God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the first mourn among many brothers and those whom he predestined he also called and those he whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified what then should we say to these things if God is for us who can be against us he who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all how will he not also with him graciously give us all things who shall bring any charge against God's elect it is

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God who justifies who is to condemn Christ Jesus is the one who died more than that who was raised who is at the right hand of God who indeed is interceding for us who shall separate us from the love of Christ shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake we are being killed all the day long we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered no in all these things in other words

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Paul's answering all the previous questions no in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us for I am sure that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth or anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our

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Lord that the sinner who believes in Christ the bride of Christ the church is safe from condemnation and is safe even unto death because they cannot be separated from the love of God that's why the gospel is such good news if God sets his affection on you you will be saved you will be continually being saved and you will be finally saved in glory because the love of God always finishes what it desires amen and we have another comment from Scott in Queens New York excellent response and wanted to point out the love of Jesus rebuking harshly the

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Pharisees Peter saying to treat unrepentant brother as heathen and Paul turning some out of the church over to Satan doesn't this replace or I'm sorry doesn't this relate to what you just said about gay marriage responses amen to what you said yes definitely

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I think the world wants to tell us the only way you can love me is to approve of everything I do and yet God tells us the only way we can love sinners is to be loving be kind but also tell them the truth that sin will kill them that sin will be their demise for all eternity and the

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King is coming and and that the same Jesus who saves the same Jesus who keeps his church and holds the church tight is the same

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Jesus who will come and pour out the wrath of God on all the wicked who refuse to believe so yes it is loving to tell a sinner that he's a sinner we just need to do it in a loving way some people are very hateful in the way that they say talk about sin but it is not wrong to talk about sin it is actually loving and I would agree with that well

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I would agree with Scott that it is loving to tell somebody that they are dead in their sins and that they are rebelling against Almighty God right and in fact

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I know I keep repeating this this podcast

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I heard on my show but because I just found it very remarkable in our day and age coming from the lips of an atheist but the very well -known magician

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Penn Jillette who is not only an atheist but he can be quite vulgar at times but he on his podcast spoke of a man who presented a

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Bible to him after his performance in Vegas at one time and he was very moved by this man's compassion for him even if he didn't believe in the

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God that this man loved or the Bible that this man gave him and he Penn Jillette even said if you believe that you must have faith in God in order to not only avoid damnation but inherent eternal life how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them that yeah exactly and I think that no no

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I think missions is a reflection of the church's love for the lost

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I think when we are not about missions if we're not about proclaiming the gospel to all the nations then we're showing that no we don't really love that we just want to leave them in their sin the obedience of the work of missions proves that we not only love

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God but also we believe that he has sheep around the world that need to be saved and again they will never be saved apart from you know

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Paul says in Romans 10 you know how can they hear if no one preaches how can they preach if no one sends them and again faith comes by hearing hearing by the

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Word of God we believe that God has ordained secondary causes God Almighty could save somebody without us but he has ordained that he will save his church through his church as his church preaches the glories of Christ and the gospel of grace we all unless we're living in caves somewhere or do not own you know

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TV sets or computers or radios we or read newspapers or magazines we all know about the

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God hates fags group which eventually even had such hate in them that they even excommunicated their own founder

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I think because he thought that there should be more love demonstrated amongst the congregation but anyway that is obviously the extreme that you and I and everyone that we hold to be legitimate

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Christians would would look upon with disgust and horror and in fact

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I would be fairly certain you agree that these people are demonstrating that they are likely not regenerate people they are likely still dead in their trespasses and sins themselves because they seem to have a delight in the wicked going to hell but obviously since we are not to be going to that extreme wouldn't you say that there also seems to be a very prevalent tendency in modern evangelicalism to go the opposite extreme in regard to the way love is spoken about and demonstrated in regard for instance to homosexuality

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Christians are sinners and we're never going to have the perfect balance struck in regard to the abhorrence and hatred of sin and the love and compassion towards sinners what practical counsel and advice can you give us in that regard as we try not to be too soft when we speak to the homosexuals and even our friends who condone them and heartily approve them and also at the same time the fact that we must never forget that we are sinners and that we have been delivered only by God's grace yeah

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I think again you brought up John Newton earlier and him amazing grace you know he basically just says

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I was lost but now I I'm found I was blind but now I see I think when when

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Christians remember and understand that their natural position towards God was one of hatred and one of opposition and one of rebellion it causes us to be able to look at people that are still there with compassion if we forget that God saved us from sin because we were sinners then we can look upon them like Pharisees and say hey you should be good like me and again

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I think the gospel makes it abundantly clear that if God did not save us we would have been eternally condemned because of our sin against God and I think you you referring to the

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Westboro Church in Kansas that that displays their hatred they say they're exposing sin but they're doing it in such a sinful way that is not

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Christian that is not Christlike and to me it brings an offense upon those that would desire to preach the gospel of grace and it causes other people to do a knee -jerk reaction say who

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I don't want to be that offensive so I'm not going to expose sin so yes I think the majority of people that act that way are not believers or they're believers and they're hung up in in a group that is causing them to stumble into sin because that is not obedience being displayed on their behalf when they scream those hateful things with signs and verbally again we we should understand that we were totally depraved that everything in our being hated

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God and yet God saved us because of his own grace and mercy that should make us compassionate and if it doesn't then we need to go back in and redine on the gospel and I think that's where a lot of people as you said at the beginning go wrong because if easy believism it makes it you made a decision you're the good one now go preach to the bad ones and that's not the gospel and in 30 seconds those who are listening who may believe that they are beyond all hope because of the wickedness that has dominated their own life what do you have to say to them yeah

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I think every sin in Scripture is listed and Paul in one of his letters even lists murder and lying and homosexuality says and such were some of you but you were washed anything that someone is is is loving and committing when

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Christ comes he is able to save to the utmost the greatest center that has ever lived on this earth and and again if someone uses as an excuse

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I'm too sinful to be saved that's just their flesh continuing to rebel against God continuing to have a low view of Christ and I pray that the church near that person would preach the true gospel of grace that Christ is able to save the chief of sinners and again the love of God is greater than all your sin

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I want to thank you so much for being my guest today pastor Mark Lukens and I want to repeat the website of Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk Massachusetts Providence Baptist Church ma dot o

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RG when I thank everybody for listening especially those who wrote emails and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater