Short Dividing Line

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three -four -one And now with today's topic here is

James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. I wanted to start off today

First of all, thanking you for tuning in especially after a week off I think that was the first vacation

I've had since 1989. So And I spent it tromping through the woods of Alaska.

I'm gonna tell you something there is no more beautiful place on the planet than Alaska after speaking in Anchorage at a conference there with a

Tom Askell and Steve Lawson then We went down towards Seward the

Kenai Peninsula and let me tell you something every time you come around a corner It's time to stop the

RV get out and take another picture because it's just hey That is one one gorgeous place to live.

Of course in just a few months. You'll only be able to see it for That is if you survive the cold, you know freeze to death, you know, that's

I'm sorry It'll be all white. Yes, basically it will be it will be all white.

So it is And I've often said I've always thought about moving to Alaska and opening a tire store

And they do need tires in Alaska, but I discovered something else. They need Alaska more they need windshields

Every vehicle I was in had a cracked windshield Because the roads get so grungy and there's all this stuff all over it pretty much all year long and it gets kicked up in Your windows and everybody has a cracked windshield

So that would be that would be the store to open in in Alaska is a windshield thing

Anyway, two things and I don't have sufficient information for you the one with me, unfortunately

But be watching the blog and the website for a new banner ad

We want to try to encourage everyone that we can to sign up and to attend the conference in November November 21st and 22nd in Durham, North Carolina the battle for the truth conference

Will be going on at that time myself and Phil Johnson will be speaking and others but we really need to Sort of come alongside here and I want to encourage everyone in that area

And if you can travel it'd be worth worth doing so To be there for that conference.

It is important that we get that going especially so that we can have the debate on the 20th with Zulfikar Shah and I think that's really really important.

We really need to do that So be watching for the banner ad for the battle for the truth conference November 21st 22nd of this year in Durham, North Carolina in September and Hopefully if I get this information,

I had hoped I would have it before the program started today, but I haven't received it as yet If if I do receive it during the program

I will let you know that in fact Rich is going to go and check my email for me here a little bit later so that I can

See if it has arrived and he can forward it to him one of my web addresses so I can pull it down that way but three debates in Southern, California, and I just got some information about these today

So it'll be a little bit more useful to folks. I And some others will be speaking on common subjects in Islam.

I'll be speaking on the atonement on the 19th of September and then on the 20th of September, which is a

Saturday in the LA area Probably the Fullerton area, but again,

I want to be able to give you that specific information We will post it as soon as it comes in obviously We will

I will be doing I didn't know to be doing this I'll be doing two debates in one day

I'll be doing the morning and the evening debates David would'll be doing the afternoon debate again on Islamic subjects, and I believe

I'll be debating the same individual in both of those debates and Then the next day we're going to be moving and this is what

I didn't know about so those of you who are in Fact I can think of one MMA fan who's going to Westminster to be very happy about this

Good bud of mine that I can't really admit that in public or I get in trouble. But anyways, I Know he's listening right now because he said he was having

DL withdrawals last week But we're gonna be heading down to San Diego, San Diego County, I Think San Diego State University.

I think I think I think again details forthcoming and I'll be doing the early afternoon debate on Sunday and So that's two debates on Saturday one debate on Sunday And then

I'll probably if we can work out the flight schedules fly straight out from San Diego be a whole lot easier Than trying to drive all the way back to LA But Two different opponents three different debates key issues in regards to reliability the

New Testament the deity of Christ and issues along those lines there in California and This will be next month less than a month away

And that's why we need to get this information out to everybody so that you can be in attendance

I I know sometimes like well, you know, we can always catch the video or something like that It's always good to have people there live to support you and to Be there to pray to pray for the

Muslims that are there, etc, etc. So I would highly encourage you to consider being there and to participating in in those debates supporting us

With your prayers and your presence and so on and so forth So keep those things in mind. We likewise continue to remind you of the upcoming opportunities in London in November Still seeking to make sure we have all of our costs on that covered

And that then is you know, I do the London stuff. I've got two debates formal debates in you know in the same format that we doing it in Southern California as far as People coming and listening to the debate and and time to moderate it and then

Lord willing We will be doing a call -in program myself and Abdullah who you all know from my youtube videos on a local cable television program there in London Lord willing and that's another thing

I got to be working on this week to get all that stuff nailed down and That's gonna be very very

Hmm interesting Lots of stuff and then coming back flying back from London to Durham and then being at the

Battle for Truth conference, so it's gonna be a very very busy November and Then I think

I have one week back and then the next weekend. I'll be in st. Louis so All sorts of stuff going on gonna be in Santa Fe I've had my calendar in front of me.

I could tell you these things I should probably have a calendar program sitting on just up on this thing so I can always Look here and make sure that I know what the world

I'm blabbing about but I believe we're looking at September 12th and 13th

I believe so I'm gonna be I've got Santa Fe Southern California, and then we have the Ligonier conference here in Phoenix in September.

Hey I needed that vacation because this fall is going to be absolutely incredible so Pray for us and support us as we're doing doing this work.

I have a number of clips to play today Of course we do have a phone number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

I have two cameras staring at me today and We are I know like Frank did you know

Frank Turk wrote to me and whined about the sound Yeah, you know and I wrote back and said well, you know,

I'm just using my little camera and So it doesn't have an audio input and this has just got to be simple and easy

Well for Frank's benefit, I finally got around to getting it all hooked up. That's a much bigger camera than that It's a much bigger camera and it's much more versatile.

And in fact, that's the camera we use for our debates That's the one of the cameras we use for our debates. Yes, and since it's sitting around here.

We might as well put it to work yeah, and so today we're testing it but It looks everything looks good.

Looks like it's recording. Okay. Yeah, pretty much for the most part. Good pretty much for the most part Even for the part that didn't work

Yeah, we're still using a little one as a backup just in case Our settings aren't quite the way we wouldn't have them to be but yeah full studio size well studio size it's the camera that we use when

I when we travel and do debates stuff like that and But it's recording on a computer in the other room so we have the audio inputs rather than that's better I you know, we knew that this was the best way to do it

But the main thing is you've got to have a quick format so I can quickly get up on YouTube and not have to spend you know a

Great deal of time so Frank will be very very happy about that though you know, I shouldn't mention that because now people know that I know him and You know his rep man,

I tell you and in the Internet's it's pretty rough Yeah, it's almost as bad as yours almost but but his is deserved of mine

Okay, I'm gonna hear about that one But you know, hey when when you're reliant upon comic book characters, you know to fill in the places where you're in certain so good

I'm gonna hear about that one, too But hey, if he comes in channel, I can sock him and kick him and do all sorts of stuff like that.

So Who knows? Maybe that's what will happen. I have some clips very good clips. And I once again,

I wish to thank James Swan For providing these clips for me.

I listened to this one before we left I was up in Alaska, but I download it because I wanted to listen to it and It is truly interesting to listen to Carl Keating Talking about reformed folks

Carl Keating is a fascinating fella. He really is I Not sure how to describe him

You know a nice fellow to talk with you know rather laid -back shall we say and But we we do what we do for different reasons.

There's no question about that. There's There's a different drive between myself and Carl along those things and Anyway There was a call on Catholic answers and RC Sproul came up and since RC is going to be here in Phoenix in just a few weeks

Lord willing and to be meeting with him had him on the program recently and So let's let's listen to what

Carl Keating has to say about RC Sproul on a recent edition of Catholic answers live

This is Catholic answers live All right We were just in Florida there with Matthew and we're gonna stay in Florida and go over to the

West Coast As they call it the West Coast of Florida Dave's in Tampa. Hi Dave Gentlemen, thanks for having me.

Sure. I have an ongoing attack from a Calvinist friend He gave me a

CD of a talk by RC Sproul or dr. Sproul on a tour of Rome Went to the

Lateran Church. You may have heard this where he understood the steps that Jesus walked to Pilate's judgment were and Dr.

Sproul goes on to make a very disrespecting comedy of the Catholic practice of granting

Indulgences for reciting prayers in a cult -like fashion on those steps now.

Let me just stop right there just for a moment So much to be said

Possibly an ongoing attack from a Calvinist friend, you know I wonder if Catholic answers live is considered to be, you know an ongoing attack on Protestantism or something like that Probably isn't but anyway

Yeah, you know crawling up steps on your knees to get indulgences and obviously

Dr. Sproul would have as the background of that The practices is they're going on time the Reformation Indulgences are still part and parcel of Roman Catholic theology and as such

This is where I sort of wonder at times if Either how clear we have been or how little the other side has listened and giving that we're talking about Roman Catholic apologists here and how many times we've documented the fact that they really don't listen or don't seek to understand then you know, we could sort of figure out which direction that goes but the the point is that You have a practice here that from a biblical perspective is grossly unbiblical

It is directly contradictory to the biblical teachings concerning the sufficiency and perfection of the sacrifice of Christ Haven't actually

I guess we did have one debate long long ago on indulgences in Austin That would be an excellent subject

I would love to get Tim Staples or we're Carl Keating or Patrick Madrid or any of these guys tried to defend indulgences

They recognize that you really outside of the authority of the church here. You're just not gonna You're not gonna have much of a much success there

That's one of the reasons they rarely want to debate the Marian dogmas, which is why it's so important that we did that Marian dogmas debate which

Might you know might be available in just a short period of time and in another format

We'll have to let you all know about that. But that's actually rendering as we speak rendering as we speak pretty soon folks

You're gonna be able to download that that Excuse me that debate in a video format for viewing on On your iPod and on your computer and stuff like that.

Isn't that exciting? That's that's good news But that's why we did those things. But anyways They have they recognize there are certain topics that you know

The only way you can really defend it is to start off with the assumption of the authority of the church

It's just the only you can't defend it any other way You can't defend it as being ancient indulgences aren't ancient despite what

Frank Beckwith says and This is this is a clearly unbiblical grossly and it's it's so grossly misrepresents the finished work of Christ that you really have to Just stretch things

Horrendously, and so, you know, I I sometimes wonder, you know when they say mocking, you know

I've seen Catholics describe my debates as being filled with mockery when I ask him and exactly when did you watch this?

Well, I've actually not watched it. Well, when did you listen? Well, I've actually not listened to it But I talked to someone who did you know that kind of thing?

I've it's happened so many times and how long ago did Guardian call are we coming up on a year yet? I'm fairly very close to a year.

Isn't there somebody else we're waiting on to I keep forgetting, you know It's these folks who can so confidently say oh you're wrong about everything

I could give a list of Football field long about all your errors and well, why don't you do that?

Well, give me six months a year two years ten years. I'll come up with something it's that's how it works, but anyway, so I Wonder a little bit about you know

Exactly what the doctor said because I haven't heard this specific talk. He has he has a mind here Spoken on to talk about how he couldn't even get near him

There were so many people waiting in line and and how indulgences aren't are not scripturally based

I've read a significant amount on Catholic calm on on this and understand that There are plenty of Doctrinal issues or at least

I guess you'd call them They're coming from the doctrine, can you help me out with answering this?

well You know, dr. Sproul is a bit of a difficult case because he's a bit of a difficult man

He's in many ways a good scholar Well respected in evangelical circles, but quite frankly, he's prejudiced against the

Catholic faith somewhat like Cs Lewis, I don't think he's not remotely as good as scholars

Lewis, but Lewis himself was prejudiced against the Catholic faith Probably a chief reason why he never

Considered really coming to Rome It was largely because of his northern

Irish Protestant background and he was never able to unload that but Sproul actually goes further than Lewis Lewis never voiced his

Anti -catholic senses in any real public way Sproul does that regularly and he's done that for many years which is

I think really too bad because In a way when he does it he's unworthy of himself

I Don't think in a case like Sproul. It's a matter of Lack of understanding because it doesn't take a whole lot to understand the

Catholic teaching on Indulgences you mentioned that you had gone to Catholic comm and I guess read there the tracts for example that we have on indulgences and The references there to other places that talk about such as the old

Catholic encyclopedia, which we have Online at our site has a long article on indulgences in the history of the controversy about them

I'm sure you've gone through that so there's no purpose in repeating on air any of that But there is a substantial argument there in favor of the doctrine and practice of indulgences and yet, unfortunately, dr.

Sproul Doesn't get past pooh -pooh in there. He doesn't actually engage that so he goes to Rome He goes to he doesn't actually engage that I mean, are you really serious?

that RC has never given a meaningful criticism of Of indulgences that that I'm sorry that that makes absolutely positively no sense

Oh, what's actually the Cathedral of Rome st. John letter in church? That's the Pope's own

Church and Across the street from that Preserve in a separate building or the solace cock sauce and Scala Santa the

Sacred steps said to be the steps that our Lord himself Went up on his last day and These are the site.

This is the site of Pious prayers by people from all over the world who? Believe those to be the actual steps pious prayers

What if it's just not true? That's one of the things is is in Rome. It's like well, you know if it isn't really true.

It doesn't really matter You know ever heard of the House of Loretto? the

House of Loretto Popes gave indulgences for people who visited the House of Loretto the

House of Loretto is allegedly Mary's house, which was picked up and carried by angels through the air to Italy and A place there so that people could come and visit

Mary's house and get indulgences, I guess That people in Italy needed more indulgences and people in wherever it was but anyway

This idea of you know who cares if it's not really true. It's still pious in Christianity No It's not true.

It's not pious in the first place the Holy Spirit spirit of truth God is a God of truth and You're to worship him in spirit and in truth not spirit and piety

That doesn't care about truth, and that's one of the biggest differences here And whether or not they are they are there to commemorate the sacrifice that the

Lord made No, that's the whole problem Carl is that the sacrifice the

Lord makes in Roman Catholic theology is unbiblical false doesn't save anyone and That's the whole point

That we need to get to and many people can be seen going up that long flight of steps on their knees

Often in considerable pain offering that penance that pain to God for their own sins and in thanksgiving for what a

Christ did for them and for the world and yet, this is something that R .C. Sproul pooh -poohs

Yes most most undoubtedly without question Roman Catholics pooh -pooh faith alone

Roman Catholics pooh -pooh The the solas of the Reformation if we want to use such odd terminology

That's because they believe them to be false and We believe indulgences to be false and false piety to be something that people should be warned against not encouraged in There's not much one can say here because quite honestly, this is this is a personal fault with the man

It's not an intellectual fault. You know, there's he's a very intelligent man There's no reason that he shouldn't be able to understand and therefore have a certain sympathy with the

Catholic teaching on this I mean Why if you understand it will you have a sympathy with it? See you hear you hear

Carl Keating's thought process here. If you'd understand it, you'd have a sympathy with it What if you understand it and it revolts you?

What if you understand it and it's repulsive to you because it's so Grossly contradictory to the

Bible's teaching about the finished work of Jesus Christ Isn't that evidently that's not a possibility from their perspective if you just really understood it

Then you'd at least have some respect for it you are I perhaps have read

The history and tenets of some religion to which we're not Subscribing.

I mean I myself just today. I'm reading a book that has to do with the ancient Egyptian religion

Obviously, I don't subscribe to it, but I can have a certain Sympathy for the people who did believe in that a certain understanding with them

They have a commonality with me. We're both human and They may have lived 4 ,000 years ago, but I Can have a certain?

Appreciation of them, but I'm not going to appreciation of them or of their false religion

I mean if you read about the Egyptians doing human sacrifice. Do you appreciate human sacrifice?

Do you you know we read about Moloch and The offering of children and in passing through the fire to Moloch do we?

Appreciate this no, it's idolatry. It should be repulsive and disgusting to us not.

Oh well I I appreciate that to poo -poo. Yeah, they if they still were alive.

I wouldn't poo -poo what? What they believed in I could disagree with it and say here.

I think this is wrong. This is wrong This is wrong for these reasons, but I wouldn't make fun of it Because if I when

I get to the point of making fun of someone else's religion I'm not actually being rational at that point.

I'm simply letting prejudice take over and that's what dr. Sproul has done I've always thought it a pity because in many ways

I respect what he stands for what he's done He's been a big influence on evangelical

Christians and especially on fundamentalists to many of them. He is the top scholar From their points of view now you notice he has no understanding of the difference between classic fundamentalism and reformed theology at all

They just they just they just don't invest the time to understand where the distinctions are and that's why they continue to struggle against reformed apologists because they

They don't want to see a difference between us and Jack Chick And they don't see that we're not that we're coming from very very different perspectives

But I think he does himself a disservice and them a disservice because of this prejudice that he's not able to Hide and it's like a sympathy this basic human sympathy for those who happen to belong to the

Roman Communion Thanks for that all right Dave we have a tract on that I believe as part of our hundred and twenty

Oh, we do we got a couple we got several tracks on indulgences and a number of things as I say days Probably already looked at them online

Because he did say he's gone to catholic .com But there no doubt are many folks listening now who have not had a chance to do that So I would encourage you to do that Yeah, you can go to catholic .com

and I you know go ahead and read everything you jolly well want to read on the subject of Indulgences and it will be very very interesting 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number that Gideon has called we're gonna get to his phone call and your phone calls as well

But we're gonna take a quick break a little bit early today, and then come back with Gideon's call and more clips from Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples and others we'll be right back.

Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious isa

Jesus Entertainment without a license. I'm cross -dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women

Is a public crime occurring in your town? Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org and well back into the dividing line today

We're gonna go ahead and take our first phone caller and let's talk with Gideon.

Hi Gideon. How are you? Hi, dr. White. I'm fine. How are you doing doing? All right? Okay. Um, I was recently talking with the one that's been a costal person

I'm the adoption of the Trinity and this Muslim fellow jumps in and he posts all these texts from Encyclopedia Britannica arguing that Matthew 28 19 was a later interpolation into the text because All other

Christian baptismal texts in the New Testament say that baptism is said to be in Jesus name Have you ever heard that kind of objection before?

Oh, of course, it's utterly groundless and based upon pure ignorance Which is why the Encyclopedia Britannica is not something you'd ever want to utilize when it comes to any type of biblical interpretational issue

The Encyclopedia Britannica is not written by theologians or people who believe in the Bible and so in their ignorance they don't recognize that the

Baptism in the name of Jesus is not contradictory to the baptismal formula furthermore. There's absolutely no textual foundation whatsoever

For making the assertion that it is a later interpolation. It is in the earliest manuscripts we have

There is absolutely no factual basic Historical foundation for rejecting the words of Matthew 28 19

The only reason to reject it is because you misunderstand that baptism in the name of Jesus This is not a specific formula.

Were you saying I baptize you in the name of Jesus? It just simply means

Christian baptism and that the actual formula is provided there in Matthew 28 19 Is perfectly reflective of what is purely

Christian baptism in the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit So there's no historical reason to do it no textual reason to do it and the only theological reason to do it is if a you assume modalism and reject the clear distinction between the

Father Son spirit that is provided in the text of scripture or you're ignorant like the writers of the Encyclopedia Britannica and You don't understand those things and throw those things out

Oh, okay. Thanks. That helps a lot. Okay. All righty. Thank you I was rather straightforward with that, but The reason is rather clear and and that is because we need to be straightforward about it it is very common for one this

Pentecostals to make that kind of argument and to assert that Those words because they speak of baptism in the name of Father Son Holy Spirit or later interpretation

Interpolation, I'm sorry And that's because they baptize in the name of Jesus alone and Are therefore opposed that particular thing

I never had to do this before but actually going to need to Wrap things up early today.

I apologize. It's a physical issue It's just simply a matter of a

Back spasm coming on that makes it next to impossible to function and unfortunately

I'm supposed to be on iron sharpens iron in half an hour For Chris Arden's second anniversary week, and so I'd like to try to get this dealt with I apologize

Concerning this we've never had to do this before But you know, that's what happens once in a while.

So we're gonna need to wrap this up We Lord willing will be back on Thursday and taking your phone calls and get these other who knows

Maybe we'll tack the next half hour on to Thursday if we need to do that But if that's the way it happens, that's the way it happens

So thanks for listening to the program of the abbreviated version today and Lord willing. We'll be with you on Thursday See you then

God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks