Short Dividing Line

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. I wanted to start off today. First of all, thanking you for tuning in especially after a week off. I think that was the first vacation I've had since 1989.

So. And I spent it tromping through the woods of Alaska. I'm gonna tell you something there is no more beautiful place on the planet than Alaska after speaking in Anchorage at a conference there with a Tom Askell and Steve Lawson.

Then.

We went down towards Seward the Kenai Peninsula and let me tell you something at every time you come around a corner. It's time to stop the RV get out and take another picture because it's just. Hey, that is that is one one gorgeous place to live, of course in just a few months.

You'll see it for. That is if you survive the cold, you know freeze to death, you know, that's I'm sorry. It'll be all white. Yes, basically it will be it will be all white. So it is. And I've often said I've always thought about moving to Alaska and opening a tire store.

And they do need tires in Alaska, but I discovered something else. They need Alaska more. They need windshields. Every vehicle I was in had a cracked windshield. Because the roads get so grungy and there's all this stuff all over it pretty much all year long and it gets kicked up in Your windows and everybody has a cracked windshield.

So that would be that would be the store to open in in Alaska is a windshield thing. Anyway two things and I don't have sufficient information for the one with me, unfortunately. But be watching the blog and the website for a new banner ad.

We want to try to encourage everyone that we can to sign up and to attend the conference in November November 21st and 22nd in Durham, North Carolina the battle for the truth conference. Will be going on at that time myself and Phil Johnson will be speaking and others but we really need to Sort of come alongside here and I want to encourage everyone in that area.

And if you can travel it'd be worth worth doing so. To be there for that conference. It is important that we get that going especially so that we can have the debate on the 20th with Zulfikar Shah and I think that's really really important.

We really need to do that. So be watching for the banner ad for the battle for the truth conference November 21st 22nd of this year in Durham, North Carolina in.

September and.

Hopefully if I get this information, I had hoped I would have it before the program started today, but I haven't received it as yet.

If.

If I do receive it during the program I will let you know that in fact Rich is going to go and check my email for me here a little bit later so that I can See if it has arrived and he can forward it to him.

One of my web addresses is so I can pull it down that way.

But.

Three debates in Southern, California, and I just got some information about these today. So it'll be a little bit more useful to folks. I And some others will be speaking on common subjects in Islam.

I'll be speaking on the atonement on the 19th of September and then on the 20th of September, which is a Saturday in the LA area. Probably the Fullerton area, but again, I want to be able to give you that specific information.

We will post it as soon as it comes in obviously. We will. I will be doing. I didn't know to be doing this. I'll be doing two debates in one day. I'll be doing the morning and the evening debates. David would'll be doing the afternoon debate again on Islamic subjects, and I believe I'll be debating the same individual in both of those debates and Then the next day we're going to be moving and this is what I didn't know about so those of you who are in Fact I can think of one MMA fan who's going to Westminster to be very happy about this.

Good bud of mine that I can't really admit that in public or I get in trouble. But anyways, I Know he's listening right now because he said he was having DL withdrawals last week. But we're gonna be heading down to San Diego, San Diego County, I Think San Diego State University.

I think I think I think again details forthcoming and I'll be doing the early afternoon debate on Sunday and. So that's two debates at Saturday. One debate on Sunday. And then I'll probably if we can work out the flight schedules fly straight out from San Diego.

Be a whole lot easier than trying to drive all the way back to LA.

But.

Two different Opponents three different debates key issues in regards to reliability the New Testament the deity of Christ and issues along those lines there in California and This will be next month less than a month away.

And that's why we need to get this information out to everybody so that you can be in attendance. I I know sometimes like well, you know, we can always catch the video or something like that. It's always good to have people there live to support you and to Be there to pray to pray for the Muslims that are there, etc, etc.

So I would highly encourage you to consider being there and to participating in in those debates supporting us With your prayers and your presence and so on and so forth. So keep those things in mind.

We likewise continue to remind you of the upcoming opportunities in London in November. Still seeking to make sure we have all of our costs on that covered. And that then is you know, I do the London stuff.

I've got two debates formal debates in you know in the same format that we doing it in some of California as far as People coming and listening to the debate and and time to moderate it and then Lord willing We will be doing a call-in program myself and Abdullah who you all know from my youtube videos on a local cable television program there in London Lord willing and that's another thing I got to be working on this week to get all that stuff nailed down and That's gonna be very very Hmm interesting.

Lots of stuff and then coming back flying back from London To Durham and then being at the Battle for Truth conference. So it's gonna be a very very busy.

November and.

Then I think I have one week back and then the next weekend. I'll be in st. Louis.

So.

All sorts of stuff going on gonna be in Santa Fe. I've had my calendar in front of me. I could tell you these things I should probably have a calendar program sitting on just up on this thing so I can always Look here and make sure that I know what the world I'm blabbing about but I believe we're looking at September 12th and 13th, I believe so I'm gonna be.

I've got Santa Fe Southern California, and then we have the Ligonier conference here in Phoenix in September. Hey. Yeah, I needed that vacation because this fall is going to be absolutely incredible. So pray for us and support us as we're doing doing this work.

Catholic Answers on Indulgences and R. C. Sproul

I have a number of clips to play today. Of course, we do have a phone number. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I have two cameras staring at me today and We are I know like Frank did you know Frank Turk wrote to me and whined about the sound?

Yeah, you know and I wrote back and said well, you know, I'm just using my little camera and So it doesn't have an audio input and this has just got to be simple and easy.

Well for Frank's benefit, I finally got around to getting it all hooked up. That's a much bigger camera. It's a much bigger camera and it's much more versatile. And in fact, that's the camera we use for our debates.

That's the one of the cameras we use for our debates. Yes, and since it's sitting around here. We might as well put it to work.

Yeah, and.

So today we're testing it but. It looks everything looks good. Looks like it's recording. Okay. Yeah, pretty much for the most part.

It's good pretty much for the most part you mean for the part that didn't work. Yeah, we're still using a little one as a backup just in case. Our settings aren't quite the way we would have them to be but yeah full studio size.

Well studio size it's the camera that we use when I when we travel and do debates stuff like that and. But it's recording on a computer in the other room. So we have the audio inputs rather than that's better.

I you know, we knew that this was the best way to do it. But the main thing is you've got to have a quick format so I can quickly get up on YouTube and not have to spend you know a Great deal of time so Frank will be very very happy about that though you know, I shouldn't mention that because now people know that I know him and You know his rep man.

I tell you and in the Internet's it's pretty rough. It's almost as bad as yours almost. But but his is deserved of mine. Okay, I'm gonna hear about that one But you know, hey when when you're reliant upon comic book characters, you know to fill in the places where you're in certain so good I'm gonna hear about that one, too.

But hey, if he comes in channel, I can sock him and kick him and do all sorts of stuff like that. So Who knows? Maybe that's what will happen. I have some clips very good clips. And I once again, I wish to thank James Swan For providing these clips for me.

I listened to this one before we left I was up in Alaska, but I download it because I wanted to listen to it and It is truly interesting.

To.

Listen to Carl Keating. Talking about reformed folks Carl Keating is a fascinating fella. He really is I Not sure how to describe him. You know a nice fellow to talk with you know rather laid-back shall we say and.

But we we do what we do for different reasons. There's no question about that. There's. There's a different drive between myself and Carl along those things and. Anyway. There was a call on Catholic answers and RC Sproul came up.

And since RC is going to be here in Phoenix in just a few weeks Lord willing and to be meeting with him had him on the program recently and. So let's let's listen to what Carl Keating has to say about RC Sproul on a recent edition of Catholic answers live.

This is Catholic answers live. All right. We were just in Florida there with Matthew and we're gonna stay in Florida and go over to the West Coast. As they call it the West Coast of Florida. Dave's in Tampa.

Hi Dave.

Gentlemen, thanks for having me. Sure. I have an ongoing attack. He gave me a CD of it went to the Lateran Church. You may have heard this. Where he understood the steps that Jesus walked to and to make of granting indulgences for reciting prayer now.

Let me just stop right there just for a moment so much to be said. Possibly an ongoing attack from a Calvinist friend, you know. I wonder if Catholic answers live is considered to be, you know, an ongoing attack on Protestantism or something like that.

That probably isn't but anyway. Yeah, you know crawling up steps on your knees to get indulgences and obviously Dr. Sproul would have as the background of that the practices as they're going on time the Reformation.

Indulgences are still part and parcel of Roman Catholic theology. And as such. This is where I sort of wonder. At times if either how clear we have been or how little the other side has listened and giving that we're talking about Roman Catholic apologists here and how many times we've documented the fact that they really don't listen or don't seek to understand then you know, we could sort of figure out which direction that goes but the the point is that You have a practice here that from a biblical perspective is grossly unbiblical.

It is directly contradictory to the biblical teachings concerning the sufficiency and perfection of the sacrifice of Christ. Haven't actually I guess we did have one debate long long ago on indulgences in Austin.

That would be an excellent subject. I would love to get Tim Staples or we're Carl Keating or Patrick Madrid or any of these guys try to defend indulgences. They recognize that you really outside of the authority of the church here.

You're just not gonna. You're not gonna have much of a much success there. That's one of the reasons they rarely want to debate the Marian dogmas, which is why it's so important that we did that Marian dogmas debate which Might you know might be available in just a short period of time and in another format.

We'll have to let you all know about that. But that's actually rendering as we speak rendering as we speak pretty soon folks. You're gonna be able to download that that Excuse me that debate in a video format for viewing on On your iPod and on your computer and stuff like that.

Isn't that exciting? That's that's good news. But um, that's why we did those things. But anyways They have they recognize there are certain topics that you know The only way you can really defend it is to start off with the assumption of the authority of the church.

It's just the only you can't defend it any other way. You can't defend it as being ancient indulgences aren't ancient despite what Frank Beckwith says and This is this is a clearly unbiblical grossly and it's it's so grossly misrepresents the finished work of Christ that you really have to Just stretch things horrendously, and so, you know, I I sometimes wonder, you know when they say mocking, you know, I've seen Described my debates as being filled with mockery when I ask him and exactly when did you watch this?

Well, I've actually not watched it. Well, when did you listen? Well, I've actually not listened to it. But I talked to someone who did you know that kind of thing? I've it's happened so many times and how long ago did Guardian call we coming up on a year yet?

I'm fairly very close to a year. Isn't there somebody else we're waiting on to I keep forgetting, you know. These folks it can so confidently say. Oh, you're wrong about everything. I could give a list of football Field long about all your errors and well, why don't you do that?

Well, give me six months a year two years ten years I'll come up with something it's that's how it works, but anyway, so I Wonder a little bit about you know Exactly what Dr. Paul said because I hadn't heard this specific talk he has he has a minder.

Spoken on to talk about how he couldn't even get near him. There were so many people waiting in line and and how indulgences aren't are not scripturally based. Significant amount on Catholic. Comm on on this and understand plenty of they're coming from the doctrine.

Can you help me? Well.

You know, dr. Sproul is a bit of a difficult case because he's a bit of a difficult man. He's in many ways a good scholar. Well respected in evangelical circles, but quite frankly, he's prejudiced against the Catholic faith.

Somewhat like CS Lewis, I don't think he's not remotely as good as scholars Lewis, but Lewis himself was prejudiced against the Catholic faith. Probably a chief reason why he never Considered really coming to Rome.

It was largely because of his northern Irish Protestant background and he was never able to unload that but Sproul actually goes further than Lewis. Lewis never voiced his Anti Catholic senses in any real public way.

Sproul does that regularly and he's done that for many years, which is I think really too bad because In a way when he does it he's unworthy of himself.

I.

Don't think in a case like Sproul. It's a matter of lack of understanding. Because it doesn't take a whole lot to understand the Catholic teaching on indulgences. You mentioned that you had gone to catholic .com and I guess read there the tracts for example that we have on indulgences and The references there to other places that talk about it such as the old Catholic Encyclopedia, which we have Online at our site has a long article on indulgences in the history of the controversy about them.

I'm sure you've gone through that so there's no purpose in repeating on air any of that. But there is a substantial argument there in favor of the doctrine and practice of indulgences. And yet unfortunately dr. Sproul Doesn't get past poo-pooing there.

He doesn't actually engage that so he goes to Rome.

He goes to he doesn't actually engage that. I mean, are you really serious? That RC has never given a meaningful criticism of Of indulgences that that I'm sorry that that makes absolutely positively no sense.

What's actually the Cathedral of Rome st. John letter in church? That's the post on Church and Across the street from that Preserving a separate building or the solace con Scala Santa. The sacred steps said to be the steps that our Lord himself Went up on his last day.

And.

These are the site. This is the site of Pious prayers by people from all over the world. Who? Believe those to be the actual steps.

Pious prayers. What if it's just not true? So that's one of the things is is in Rome. It's like well, you know if it isn't really true. It doesn't really matter. You know ever heard of the house of Loretto.

The house of Loretto. Popes gave indulgences for people who visited the house of Loretto. The house of Loretto is allegedly Mary's house, which was picked up and carried by angels through the air to Italy and a place there so that people could come and visit Mary's house and get indulgences, I guess that people in Italy needed more indulgences and people in wherever it was, but anyway.

This idea of you know, who cares if it's not really true. It's still pious.

In Christianity.

No. It's not true. It's not pious in the first place. The Holy Spirit spirit of truth. God is a God of truth and You're to worship him in spirit and truth not spirit and piety. That doesn't care about truth and that's one of the biggest differences here and whether or not they are.

They are there to commemorate the sacrifice that our Lord made.

No, that's the whole problem Carl is that the sacrifice the Lord makes in Roman Catholic theology.

Is.

Unbiblical false doesn't save anyone and That's the whole point.

That we need to get to and many people can be seen Going up that long flight of steps on their knees Often in considerable pain offering that penance that pain to God for their own sins and in Thanksgiving for what a Christ did for them and for the world.

And yet this is something that R .C. Sproul. Pooh-poohs.

Yes most most undoubtedly without question. Roman Catholics pooh-pooh. Faith alone. Roman Catholics pooh-pooh. The the solas of the Reformation if we want to use such odd terminology. That's because they believe them to be false and We believe indulgences to be false and false piety to be something that people should be warned against not encouraged in.

There's not much one can say here because quite honestly, this is this is a personal fault with the man. It's not an intellectual fault. You know, there's he's a very intelligent man. There's no reason that he shouldn't be able to understand and therefore have a certain sympathy with.

The Catholic teaching on this I mean why if you understand it, will you have a sympathy with it? See you hear you hear Carl Keating's thought process here. If you'd understand it, you'd have a sympathy with it.

What if you understand it and it revolts you? What if you understand it and it's repulsive to you because it's so Grossly contradictory to the Bible's teaching about the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Isn't that evidently that's not a possibility from their perspective. If you just really understood it Then you'd at least have some respect for it. Mmm. You are I perhaps have read.

The history and tenets of some religion to which we're not Subscribing. I mean I myself just today. I'm reading a book that has to do with the ancient Egyptian religion. Obviously, I don't subscribe to it, but I can have a certain Sympathy for the people who did believe in that a certain understanding with them.

They have a commonality with me. We're both human and they may have lived 4 ,000 years ago, but I Can have a certain.

Appreciation of them and I'm not going to appreciation of them or of their false religion. I mean if you read about the Egyptians doing a human sacrifice, do you? Appreciate human sacrifice do you. You know we read about Moloch and The offering of children and passing through the fire to Moloch.

Do we appreciate this? No, it's idolatry it it should be repulsive and disgusting to us not. Oh, well, I I appreciate that. To poo-poo.

Yeah, they if they still were a lot. I wouldn't poo-poo what? What they believed in. I could disagree with it and say here. I think this is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong for these reasons, but I wouldn't make fun of it.

Because if I when I get to the point of making fun of someone else's religion I'm not actually being rational at that point. I'm simply letting prejudice take over and that's what dr. Sproul has done.

I've always thought it a pity because in many ways I respect what what he stands for what he's done. He's been a big influence on evangelical Christians and especially on fundamentalists to many of them.

He is the top scholar from their points of view. Now you notice.

He has no understanding of the difference between classic fundamentalism and reformed theology at all. They just they just they just don't invest the time to understand where the distinctions are and that's why they continue to struggle against reformed apologists because they.

They don't want to see a difference between us and Jack Chick. And they don't see that we're not that we're coming from very very different perspectives.

But I think he does himself a disservice and them a disservice because of this prejudice that he's not able to Hide and it's like a sympathy this basic human sympathy for those who happen to belong to the Roman Communion.

Thanks for that all right Dave. We have a tract on that I believe as part of our hundred and twenty.

Oh, we do. We got a couple we got several tracks on indulgences and a number of things as I say days. Probably already looked at them online. Because he did say he's gone to Catholic calm. But there no doubt are many folks listening now who have not had a chance to do that.

So I would encourage you to do that.

Yeah, you can go to Catholic calm and I you know go ahead and read everything. You jolly well want to read on the subject of Indulgences and it will be very very interesting. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four.

One is the phone number that Gideon has called. We're gonna get to his phone. Call and your phone calls as well. But we're gonna take a quick break a little bit early today, and then come back with Gideon's call and more clips from.

Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples and others will be right back everyone. This is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior? We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you. Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet. White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day.

The charges are as follows. Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious isa Jesus entertainment without a license and Cross-dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town.

Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org.

And we'll back into the dividing line today. We're gonna go ahead and take our first phone caller and let's talk with Gideon. Hi Gideon. How are you?

Hi, dr. White. I'm fine. How are you doing doing? All right? Okay. Um, I was recently talking with the one that's been a car this Muslim fellow jumps in and he said to be in Jesus.

Oh, of course, it's utterly groundless and based upon pure ignorance. Which is why the Encyclopedia Britannica is not something you'd ever want to utilize when it comes to any type of biblical interpretational issue.

The Encyclopedia Britannica is not written by theologians or people who believe in the Bible and so in their ignorance they don't recognize that the Baptism in the name of Jesus is not contradictory to the baptismal formula furthermore.

There's absolutely no textual foundation whatsoever. For making the assertion that it is a later interpolation it is in the earliest manuscripts we have. There is absolutely no factual basic historical foundation for rejecting the words of Matthew 28 19.

The only reason to reject it is because you misunderstand that baptism in the name of Jesus Doesn't is not a specific formula. Were you saying I baptize you in the name of Jesus? It just simply means Christian baptism and that the actual formula is provided there in Matthew 28 19 Is perfectly reflective of what is purely Christian baptism in the name of the Father Son the Holy Spirit?

So there's no historical reason to do it no textual reason to do it and the only theological reason to do it is if a you assume modalism and reject the clear distinction between the Father Son Spirit that is provided in the text of Scripture or you're ignorant like the writers of the Encyclopedia Britannica and You don't understand those things and throw those things out.

Okay. All righty. Thank you.

I.

Was rather straightforward with that, but The reason is rather clear and and that is because we need to be straightforward about it it is very common for one this Pentecostals to make that kind of argument and to assert that Those words because they speak of baptism in the name of Father Son Holy Spirit or later interpretation Interpolation, I'm sorry.

And that's because they baptize in the name of Jesus alone and Are therefore opposed to that particular thing. I never had to do this before but actually going to need to Wrap things up early today. I apologize.

It's a physical issue. It's just simply a matter of a Back spasm coming on that makes it next to impossible to function and unfortunately I'm supposed to be on iron sharpens iron in half an hour. For Chris Arden's second anniversary week, and so I'd like to try to get this dealt with I apologize.

Concerning this we've never had to do this before. But you know, that's what happens once in a while. So we're gonna need to wrap this up. We Lord willing will be back on Thursday and taking your phone calls and get these other who knows.

Maybe we'll tack the next half hour on to Thursday if we need to do that. But if that's the way it happens, that's the way it happens. So thanks for listening to the program of the abbreviated version today and Lord willing. We'll be with you on Thursday.

See you then. God bless.

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries. If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at p .o Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org. That's a o m i n dot o r g Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks.

Join us again this Thursday afternoon at 4 p .m for the dividing line.