We finally finished up the Madrid debate from 1993!

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line back here in Phoenix, Arizona, I thought it worked out very well last week

That we were able to use Skype and continue to do the program even though I was on the road didn't say much about where I was

Because I don't know, you know when you're away, it's best to talk about after you get back

I guess but I Was that not so much a conference as a get -together?

I guess you might say along with a number of folks. I mentioned Gary DeMar and his wife

Last time and I also got to meet a gentleman by the name of Tim Janice now

Forgive me. Sometimes, you know, I'm a little focused on things And I missed some of the stuff going on in the world.

I did not know who Tim Janice was I'm sorry for those of you who are going how can you not know who

Tim Janice is? But the rest of you who were like me don't know who Tim Janice is We're at this little get -together beforehand.

I had just been chatting Steve camp was there and so Steve and I were talking max he's always had a

Mac and was congratulating me on my my freedom My exaltation into true computing and I Mean, I gotta admit you've seen those new

Microsoft commercials where they're saying nothing about their product All they're saying is

I'm a PC and that's all they can say they can't say and I work It's it's just it's just really bad logic and it's really bad advertising so Rich pointed me to the new

Mac commercial where PC is sitting up this money over a big pile for advertising And then finally just put all in the average

That was a that was very good program. But anyway So camping

I were talking talking max and then I went over to say hi to a Tom Askell and to make some comment about Sparky and since we can do that now and He's feeling fine now, so Everyone's coming up with all the electrified jokes that they can come up with for for brother

Tom Because we're also proud to know someone who has eaten that many millions of volts and lived is all about it.

So anyway, then Michael Fallon introduced me to Tim Janice and these two young ladies and I'm just like hi, you know

I mean, all right, I didn't know and the two ladies of course were Ellie and cinnamon and found out that campy and Tim we're both having the same computer problem at the hotel.

We were at they couldn't send mail out I was fine because I have my Mac set up to use

I don't know how many different SMTP servers I have access to but I was I was working fine

So said well, why don't you come up to my room? Well, well, I'll show you how I've got it set up So you guys, you know, so Steve camp and Tim Janice and now that I know the

Tim Janice ensemble Came up to my room. We're just we're just talking Apologetics we're talking debates.

We're talking Macs and SMTP servers and stuff like that and I have no idea the next night's the big get -together

And this this this gorgeous dinner and we're all making presentations and stuff and about halfway through here comes the

Tim Janice ensemble and I am blown away just just Ellie plays violin

Cinnamon is a student at Gordon -Conwell and a flautist But also plays the tin whistle and stuff like that and I was just absolutely transfixed

Let me let me just play just a segment here. I've been picking up music right and left but this is that would be cinnamon on the

And there's Ellie this is the Tim Janice ensemble from his Beautiful America Album, and so I was like, wow, that's utterly incredible.

Let's have lunch and let's let's talk and stuff like that And so we we got together and it was

There we go and so anyway also there for the weekend was gentlemen, some of you may have heard of I don't know but You know guy named

RC Sproul was there and some of his staff and so I was asked Saturday night just sort of The discussion had happened months and months before and we thought my recollection was we thought that my travel plans were going to preclude this

But there was going to be a service on Sunday morning. And so Saturday evening. I was asked to speak

The service and so I had 21 minutes to fit a sermon in RC opened the service and prayer

Steve camp and Ellie and cinnamon Played and led in worship and then

I preached and then Steve closed with holy holy holy and it is Interesting. I do not consider myself much of a preacher.

So There is a little added pressure when RC Sproul is sitting on the front row

When you're speaking Especially when you got word that you would be speaking the night before and you don't even have a

Bible with you So you have to use your computer Which is what I did. So all that worked out real well, so we had a had a great time and I'm really excited about Getting to know new folks and things like that and while I was there thankfully

I Had full and high speed internet access not only so we could do the dividing line

But also so we could get the final Things worked out for London. I mean we better get them worked out.

I leave a week from Thursday. So I posted on the blog what we are looking at for London and We now have the locations for those of you in the

UK You have the locations of the debates Tuesday, November 11th 730 at Westburn Park Church in Portia on Port Chester Road in London I will be debating

Adnan Rashid the subject does belief in the Trinity necessitate Shirk does believe in the

Trinity necessitate Shirk. You have never heard a debate on the subject. I made it up I came up with this subject.

It obviously is an opportunity to address the question Does the

Quran? Accurately represent the doctrine of the Trinity and What is it specifically that is condemned?

What is the excess in your religion that is condemned within the pages of the Quran and what is the doctrine of the

Trinity? Is it association of creatures with Allah? Is it association of the created order with the uncreated

God and So that will be an excellent time 730 p .m. Tuesday, November 11th

On Thursday, November 13th, I'll be debating Sami Zaatari Jesus divine son of God or prophet of Allah.

That's a Trinity Road Chapel Trinity Road upper tooting in London The contact information is available people have asked will there be

Charge for access. Well, there might be and here's why Arabic Christian perspective is going to be videotaping these and If you know what it costs to just just to buy

Tapes for this many debates because they're not only taping mine. They're taping David Woods So, I mean, I don't know how many you're talking a lot of work a lot of transportation a lot of packing up setting up Expensive equipment, etc, etc.

So there might be a small couple pound charge or something like that just to help cover that so that others other than those just there that evening will be able to have

Professional grade videotaping. I was a little concerned about that. I gotta admit I mean, I was gonna be bringing my little Casio cameras just in case, you know, and at you know might work

But it's it's a whole lot easier To look at a professionally done Presentation.

I hear a lot of popping and stuff in the background. You catch that same thing. Oh, okay. There we go Is it the computer?

Yes, I am That's as tight as it goes anyway So there might be a small charge along those lines just simply so that we can have

The video and have this for years and years to come because I think that's very very important. And so There might be some a door charge there for that But I want to thank

George Saig and the folks at Arabic Christian perspective they do a great job and recording these things and Making them available for not just the audience.

It was there but for a much wider audience If you've seen the the Professional version of the

Jalal Abdelalrub debate in comparison to the little handheld cam that I had you can see why it's really nice to have have something like that there, so Might want to mention that then of course on Monday the 17th of November now on the same

Thursday I am going to be on the unbelievable radio program I'm not sure with whom yet because we're not sure exactly what topic yet.

That's still a little bit up in the air I had initially wanted to do there was a BBC Discussion Article that came out last month on Codex Sinaiticus.

It was horribly written. I blogged on it Demonstrated just the just the holes in this thing.

It was spun so badly and all they did was, you know quote Bart Ehrman and stuff like that and they don't give the whole story and so I Want to be on with Abdullah Yusuf II Abdullah of London on the subject of Codex Sinaiticus and Because Abdullah and his friend

Issa and the other gentleman involved with their YouTube website make a lot of wild claims about the text of the

New Testament and I thought it'd be a wonderful opportunity to See if those claims actually stand up when you actually got somebody right there sitting next to you with a critical edition the

Greek New Testament and who actually knows a little something about textual criticism, but Abdullah Says he's speaking on a number of other subjects that time

It doesn't really have time to prepare for something like that and he would rather talk about the Trinity So we'll see what ends up working out

That's one of the things that was going on this morning as we're currently discussing that but that'll be on I don't know if that's live.

I'm not sure if we just record that and it plays later. I just don't know I've not asked about that.

So then finally on Monday the 17th of November and I have not mentioned the preaching that I'm doing at both

Trinity Road Chapel and Edmonton Baptist Chapel But that's listed in the article on the blog on Monday 17th,

November 7 30 p .m. Twin Holm Baptist Church, Fulham Cross Lily Road in Fulham, London I will be debating

Shabir Ali is Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament and is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible That'll be a two -part debate.

It'll really sort of be two debates, but we're doing them all at the same time So who knows even how to count that? But anyway, that will be on Monday the 17th of November and Then I fly out the very next morning what's left of me

Hopefully over the next couple of days recover and then on Thursday, November 20th will be the debate with Zulfiqar Ali Shah at Tadouk University Again, that's one of the banner ads right on the front page the information available for that there.

So That is finally all put together and I've also put David's David Woods debates.

They'll be going on on November 15th the satanic versus Fabricated or historical

David Wood versus Adnan Rashid. I don't think I've ever heard a debate on the satanic verses so that will be very very useful and Then that's 1030

MC David. Like I said doesn't sleep eat or drink that's why he probably is a

Cylon or something along those lines and Because 1030 a .m.

They do that debate and then 1 30 p .m Which is about when I would be shutting down getting ready for a nap or something

We have the biblical Jesus why we chose to accept and reject That's Yahya Haider Seymour versus David Wood At the same location and so two debates in one day

That's I did it a few weeks ago, but that's not my preferred way of doing things But like I said

David superhuman and on Sunday, he'll be debating Adnan Rashid peace and violence and Christianity And Islam so it's going to be a very intense week

Starting on Tuesday and going through Monday, so seven full days With a lot going on there in London so hope you will be praying for that as well as what then takes place afterwards the the truth war

Conference going on in Durham lots and lots of stuff going on. And oh did I mention we have a conference and a cruise?

Coming up in January. There is still time an opportunity for you to go with us I know that some people have had to cancel their plans to go with us

Unfortunately, some of that has to do with the the economy the economy seems to be hitting some people but not other people it all depends

I know what your what your business is and what area it's in and things like that. Some people are making a killing right now it's just you know how things how things work and But there are still openings if you would like to go with us on The cruise the conference the debate with Bart Ehrman all those things coming up in January as well

And I just might want to throw out I've sort of noticed a pattern when you start

Getting more and more contacts from a number of different directions About a certain possibility of a debate in the future

It sort of reaches a critical mass and eventually something starts to develop One of the individuals that I have wanted to debate for quite some time and I believe

Would be an excellent debate primarily in the sense of correcting some Basically it's put this way if if Ahmed D dot said it there are a lot of people who think that settles it and there are a lot of people who have basically picked up his banner repeat his material ad nauseam and and That kind of a representation needs to be refuted

I have spent a lot of hours in this program demonstrating the many errors of Ahmed D dot and His primary student.

I would say in the world today who has become probably the most famous of the Islamic debaters is a man by the name of dr.

Zakir Naik and And One of his primary students was going to come to the

United States we were hoping to line up some debates next September, but they can't get a any of the Muslims to support coming and so In response to an email that mentioned that just this morning.

I said look I'll go to India. We can raise funds. I'll go to India They can arrange security and Make sure it's more than one debate

So that something meaningful can be accomplished. I want to debate Zakir Naik. He is considered to be the the leading apologist many of his followers feel he is absolutely undefeatable and I See him as doing nothing more than what

Ahmed D dot did his factual errors on the Greek New Testament the history of the

Christian faith the Doctrine of Trinity are basic and fundamental and easily refuted and so I know friends who go to India every

January and so I said to him. Hey Would he be willing to debate in January of 2010?

That would give me enough time to set up a fund start taking donations basically because it ain't cheap to get to India But I will go there if he won't come here

I'll go there as long as we can make sure it'll be videotaped and that we will get hold of those videotapes

Which in and of itself is one of my biggest concerns to be perfectly honest with him Then I'll go there and We'll we'll he debates in front of thousands and anytime he does something like that.

There's thousands of people just fill stadiums and so fine

If that will assist in Again, the primary reason I think about this is his material is probably the most widely distributed of anybody's especially amongst

The the Muslims outside of Arabic speaking countries, which is where most Muslims are

Remember only about 19 % of the world's Muslims are Arabic the majority of the world's

Muslims are in Indonesia and So his stuff is very popular in that area.

Therefore to debate him is to provide a refutation of the most common attacks being used against our brothers and sisters in Christ in other in other areas, so You know,

I could leave I could learn to live on protein bars for for a week or so Because that's what

I need to do But yeah, I'm not a world traveler in that sense.

I don't like that a whole lot I really don't much more comfortable right here and in my own my own routine in my own area, but there are more important things in that so Be praying that an opportunity will come up to allow me to debate

Zakir Naik if he won't leave India then What's if the mountain won't come to Muhammad and Muhammad the mountain and all that stuff?

that's not sure that we want to use that kind of illustration in that in that context, but So pray toward that end.

We will certainly want to try to put something like that together All right with that. I do want to finish up the

Patrick Madrid debate Today I think that would be a good thing to do and all we have left is

Patrick's closing statement when I was away, I played my closing statement and I You know what

I criticized myself where I played it and then when I listened to it it wasn't as bad as I remember I Didn't spend as much time on Second Thessalonians 2 15 as I had remembered and I did more summarizing than I had remembered

So it wasn't quite as bad as I thought but I think I would probably do it differently today anyway, but anyway

We played my closing statement. So now we need to play Patrick's closing statement and after this we will be done with this debate and Algo, we'll have nothing to look forward to so he's gonna have a blue Christmas, but Maybe we'll move on to another debate that he likes or something like that at that point

But let's start listening to Patrick Madrid's closing statements. I'd like to Close my remarks with a word of thanks

First of all to all of you for your patience in this warm room the still air

I know it's been uncomfortable for all of us But I I'm grateful for your sitting here and being willing to wade through all of these arguments

I'd also like to thank you pastor Wagner. I know that Hospitality is hard to come by these days and I appreciate you inviting us into your church this evening

I'd need to cover a couple of Points of old business before I move into my formal remarks. First of all,

I want to clarify something that I think mr White misunderstood. I did not earlier in the debate issue a challenge to him for another debate

And I don't want him or anyone else to make the mistake of thinking that I am thundering challenges to debate

Well, you know that was pretty odd because he did say earlier that we could debate that at another time

It certainly sounded you know, it didn't sound like a thundering debate challenge

But there were a couple times when he made Statements that certainly sounded like he'd be willing to do that and I'm not sure why he wouldn't be willing to do that because again if he's going about telling everybody how

He has won these debates and how they've been very clear and so on so forth Not quite sure why my phone is so silent

When it comes to arranging these things because I think it would be useful to demonstrate to people just how wrong

I am With a more regular basis, but that just hasn't been what's what's happened

I said earlier that that issue that we had talked about could be debated at a future point But I didn't specify by whom so please don't misunderstand that remark.

I think it might be to be a by somebody else But not to be by me Like it second of all

I Have not gone after all sorts of other issues if you remember I am

NOT the one who brought up the chair of Moses I am NOT the one who brought up tradition. I am NOT the one who brought up the church contradicting itself

I I am NOT the one who brought up tradition Excuse me. What? Okay, I'm not the one who brought up any of those things mr

None of those things have to do with whether or not the Bible teaches sola scriptura Just just think for a second think about everything

He has said all of his arguments against sola scriptura and now try to fit in that Oh, but traditions are relevant to whether sola scriptura is true or not excuse me

How can you even begin to make sense of what Roman Catholicism teaches on that subject?

If you do not include the subject of tradition I I I'm sorry he obfuscated.

I'm afraid he brought up issues Which he claims are related to whether or not the Bible teaches sola scriptura

But I don't think they are and yet the fundamental issue that has to On which his his position has to pivot is can you tell me with a certainty what the

Bible is? Now think with me for just a moment He now says that his central argument was the canon of Scripture When did he raise the issue of the canon of Scripture was his opening statement?

No, what was in his opening statement historical issues in tradition? Was it in his rebuttal period?

No, it was not in his rebuttal well actually it was at the end of his rebuttal period after I've already had my opening statement and my first rebuttal and Now he wants the audience to actually believe now,

I think this is a tactic I do believe this is a tactic I think is a tactic to try to make the audience focus upon The issues you brought up at the end of the debate rather than the substance of your debate

Which didn't work for you very well because remember I presented material and the best that Patrick had to do was to say

Well, that's just Protestant Bible scholars. We don't have to worry about them. They're just biased I'm not going to give you any specifics in response, but that's just just the way it is

And so he brings it up at the end of his his his rebuttal period when there's no more positive

Presentation time there at all and now in the closing statement. It is the heart of his argumentation

If it was the heart of his argumentation should have been the first thing he brought up But it wasn't he managed to go for 20 minutes without ever mentioning

Now is that just confused thinking or is that a specific tactic well given the repetitive nature of its use by Catholic answers

I think it's a specific tactic. Mr. White has failed utterly failed to give us an answer

As to what his reason is for knowing that those 27 books belong in the

New Testament Now remember for a Roman Catholic utterly failed means he failed to agree with me

Doesn't matter if he gave a more historically consistent answer. It doesn't matter if he avoided

The circularity of the Roman position which says we know these books are scripture because Rome tells us to how do we know

Rome can? Tell us to because Rome has the authority to we have a bigger bat than you do you know the idea used to be we burn you if you don't you know that type of situation during the

Inquisition, but You know ignore all of that and just redefine this as well.

You give me no no answer at all and My answer is I'm right because I say so it's a

Dixit. We are Rome rah -rah We're not talking about the canon of the Old Testament. Mr. White. We all know that there's a dispute on that issue

Let's deal on the issue that we do agree with the 27 books of the New Testament Why does does does

Patrick want to avoid? That issue because he knows that the Protestant has the stronger position begin with on the issue of that He can't let that come in he can't let that come in because now he has to defend his position

Historically and step off of the nice simple authoritarian argument that he's trying to use here

Against sola scriptura on a different issue called the canon of Scripture which he brought up only toward the end of his period

He has not answered that question Don't forget that Mr.. White likes to in his closing remarks

Say that I did not stick to the issue and that I did not deal with his Translation or interpretation of 2nd

Timothy 3 16 and 17 I did deal with it I did not say he did not deal with it. I said he could not respond to it

I do not believe simply saying well those just Protestant scholars, but that's not true first of all

The sources I was citing include committees that have Roman Catholic scholars on them as well

And if he was going to in a formal debate if you're going to try to argue against someone's presentation of a fact

You have to prevent present facts You can't just simply dismiss the sources that were used when you cannot even

Demonstrate the existence of bias in those lexical sources in this particular situation So he failed completely to respond to that in a meaningful fashion

Just simply saying well James bought his Greek texts as lexicons tonight, but I brought the

Bible Okay, if you want to think that's a response if you want to think that has some substance to it, okay fine

But don't expect logical and rational thinking people to agree with you on that And if he's fond of saying roll the tapes back to yourself and look at what

I said Yes, and look at how I showed that he was misapplying the meaning he was missing was seeing a meaning in 2nd

Timothy 317 It's not there But he was and how did you do that by? Referring to other texts that I demonstrated did not even use the same terminology

Syntactical parallels or anything else like that and he could not respond. He could not read the language

He can he can try to bluster all he wants he did not respond to those issues in any meaningful scholarly

Saying that it implies that the man of God is sufficient yet He excludes the role of the church in helping that man of God properly use that equipment that he's given

Oh, yes, I did answer that question. I did deal with that verse and mr. White can say anything he wants

But really the burden of proof tonight is not on me or him. It's on you You're the one that has to stand before God someday

You're the one who has to be judged on the basis of whether or not you accepted his word or rejected it now catch that Accepted his word or rejected it and It's quite painfully obvious that for Patrick Madrid.

That's not just the Bible That's Rome's interpretive authority and dogmatic teachings. There's no question about that We're gonna take our break and then come right back finish up this portion

Maybe your phone calls to eight seven seven seven five three, three, three, four one. We'll be right back Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Lord in the bookstore at a omen org What is dr.

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line

Lord willing this afternoon finishing up The final additions to the second edition of the

Potter's freedom get that sent out and have that out of the way as well When will these be available?

I imagine the Potter's freedom will be available much faster than King James only controversy according to Amazon The second edition the

King James only controversy is due February 1st I am very thankful to announce that the last graphics

I was waiting for arrived yesterday super high -definition pictures from the 1555

Stephanus text and from the Bishops Bible as I recall and I think there was a

Coverdale scan in there as well great stuff to demonstrate the truth about Revelation 16 5 and those will be added to the text of the

King James only controversy as well and So I'm very excited about that. So that's wrapped up.

I should wrap up the Potter's freedom today. That'll leave me without distraction Lord willing going into the

London debates and I want to get back from that I do have one trip to st. Louis first weekend in December Everyone in st.

Louis who cares which is a fairly small number Knows that first weekend in December for I think seven years running now.

I have Been there in st. Louis at same church, and I'm gonna be talking about New Testament reliability and the manuscripts of the

New Testament and all sorts of cool stuff like that Coming up there in st. Louis first weekend in December and then

I don't have anything Other than preaching here in at Phoenix for maps Church Until the airmen debate and I'm gonna keep it that way

Because I want to be exceptionally well prepared and focused and I really enjoy this kind of study.

I really do on the plane Going going to where I was going.

I was reading about ancient manuscripts of the Quran and on the way back I was reading

Comfort's book on encountering New Testament manuscripts and Most people would find this stuff just Boring, but I think it's awesome to be reading about each one of the papyri and exactly what they contain and and where they were found and where they're housed and what their textual nature is and special things about them that And the range of dates by the way

You know there's there's there's a lot of scholars that feel that the all in dates that are found the back of the

Nessie Allen 27th edition are very are way too conservative There's there's a whole body of scholarship that feels that there are a number of papyri manuscripts that are actually earlier than p52 that actually go into the first century the first century after the time of the writing of the

New Testament manuscripts and so It's just exciting stuff to be looking at that and this incredible availability of stuff.

I I even Where did I find that? Was it

I think it was in one of my RSS feeds while I was away. I found oh no

No, you know what it was someone who used to be associated with this ministry long long ago Who sent me a link to free

PDF books online and one of them was an excellent work on early papyri manuscripts with high definition pictures in them of the various manuscripts and it was

Really really neat to be able to grab that kind of stuff I I look at my my Mac these days and I and I I realize that there is more

There are more volumes of literature on that single unit than most

Ancient libraries could have contained think about that. I think that's what

Tim Challis is referring to as data fog We're just None of us have got the gray matter to keep up with all the stuff that's out there

We just it just ain't possible. But if you want to find out about an area, man, is it available these days?

Well, anyway boy talk about wandering off someplace Let's continue with Patrick Madrid's closing statement because I want to get this done today

You've heard the truth tonight about sola scriptura. You've heard that it's false You've heard that it can't be established from scripture.

No matter all the fancy gyrations and all the other things that mr White engages in he simply has not proven the issue

Fancy gyrations. I'm a Baptist. I don't gyrate at least he has not to my satisfaction To my satisfaction.

Yes. Well, okay. Thank you very much That's sort of proven it to the satisfaction of any honest person in this room

But dishonesty yes, is there a verse which teaches sufficiency Matthew or second Timothy 3 16 and 17 does not teach sufficiency folks

I think we've shown that Second of all, I think mr. White as I listen his arguments

He's very reminiscent of Wiley Coyote, you know, I feel like the Roadrunner tonight there. We have mr.

Mr White is Wiley Coyote springing all these traps for me trying to trying to bring me down He's got this acne box of anti -catholic arguments that he can use but notice it just like Wiley Coyote anti -catholic arguments

Excuse me So I suppose that that all of Patrick's tricks and Attempts to get people off of the actual subject and to avoid

Recognizing he can't deal with the text. He can't exegete the text He can't respond to the provision of scholarly citations from lexical sources about the text

Those aren't anti -baptist arguments or tricks or traps and and I mean think of all the stuff you said, mr

White you're a thief you've been stealing from us and now I'm Wiley Coyote and it's like wow, you know

It it does strike me that I hear from these Catholics all the time about how nasty and mean and and all these

Things I am and then I listen to some of this stuff and go exactly what debate were they listening to I remember when

Michael Fallon was was in New York when I debated Pierce Stravinsky's and he was sitting toward the back of the room was all over with and He's listening to these two young Catholic guys and they're talking and the one

Catholic guy says all When father Stravinsky's was speaking you could you could just hear the truth coming from him

But when white would speak you could see the demon circling his head Like dudes what debate were you watching?

Yeah, not the one I just got done watching and you know, then of course the conversation started from there But man, you just you just wonder what what what people are thinking when they say something.

Mr White is thwarted at every turn. He holds up the Bible and says this disproves mr

Midget position, but he can't even tell us what is in the Bible where they're not supposed to be there He can't tell us with certainty what the

Bible is and how he knows that that is the Bible even though of course Patrick is playing in circular arguments here, but we've already pointed that out he

Unbelievably spent a lot of time in 2nd Thessalonians 2 15. So in my remaining moments, let me please just address that Mr.

White made a number of errors a number of blunders. Let me point out a few of them number one He argues that all tradition must be separate from Scripture.

No, that's not the case If he had been listening carefully He would have heard what I said in my opening remarks that the

Catholic position is the material sufficiency of Scripture. Let's catch that Did you well

I'm rolling this back hold on here Okay, I gotta make sure I see right where we are and Listen to that again folks.

Listen to that again. I want you to hear this I've made a number of errors a number of blunders. Let me point out a few of them number one

He argues that all tradition must be separate from Scripture No, that's not the case if he had been listening carefully

He would have heard what I said in my opening remarks that the Catholic position is the material sufficiency of Scripture now

He even clapped at that point. So I want you to make that that means it's it's it's firm.

It's it's the did he say a an Acceptable Catholic position.

No, that's not what he said. He said it is the Catholic position there was a definite article if I ever heard one and Is that the case?

were the majority of the council fathers at Trent wrong and Patrick Madrid vice president of Catholic answers has the papal authority to define the

Catholic position Well, of course not And some say well, you know, he's just getting a little emotional.

Yeah, he's getting emotional because You know since he is willing to you know years later start making claims about these debates

I'll be straightforward with you. He did not look happy when he got done with that debate He had not look happy He knew he had not been able to respond to the material

I presented and I think what we're listening to here is his best effort To do damage control for his side

He's trying to get him revved up He's already used one of the key terms that Catholic answers teaches people to use to stop all critical thought anti -catholic

Make sure you get that term in there often and frequently just make sure that you know people aren't thinking, you know get the emotions going get the the anger going get the adrenaline going and Start calling people anti -catholics

So that's a that hopefully the people who are getting out the checkbooks to keep your ministry going will keep getting their checkbooks out to keep

Your ministry going and that's what's going on here. He knew he couldn't respond to my stuff That's why he had to throw cannon stuff out there

He knows that he did that in violation of any meaningful set of rules you don't bring up new issues in your second rebuttal period and consider that to be your primary argument and Saying that's why he's getting just a little bit on the

Antsy side here and within a very short period of time the hit piece the white man's burden appeared in this rock magazine and So, you know,

I hadn't felt the need to put some kind of huge article out rebutting Anything in the debate, but he did and he felt that they needed to do so very quickly

So I think that's what we've got going on here And so keep that keep that in mind Everything that is taught in oral tradition is found at least implicitly if not explicitly in scripture now, mr

White may dispute the scriptures that I'll bring up to prove those doctrines, but that's a different issue The fact is it doesn't have to be separate from scripture.

It doesn't have to be different It doesn't have to be something that's outside of scripture in the sense that he is talking about Second of all he asked for examples of revelation, which is found which is binding and is found outside of scripture now remember

We have already established multiple times that the only logical way to understand

Patrick Madrid's argument is that he is saying the canon of scripture is the divine revelation that came from the

Apostles and was Delivered by the Apostles and it's outside the canon of scripture itself We have established that he has made it very clear

We have demonstrated over and over again He will run back to the material sufficiency part when he wants to dodge

The the burden of proof for his claims Then he'll run out to the part and part in part to make his attacks against solo scriptura

He will speak with a forked tongue He will go to one position then back to the other position back and forth

Never holding the same position and being consistent in his argumentation We've demonstrated that over and over again over the course of a number of weeks.

We've been listening to this particular debate I gave him several one of them, which he hasn't answered is the canon of scripture.

There is an apostolic tradition The reason it's an apostolic tradition is because the Apostles told the church.

Hey, I wrote this book That sounds to me like an apostolic tradition, mr.

White It was preserved by the church and mr. White follows it and he accepts it, but he won't admit it

That's the key thing for you to remember in 2nd Thessalonians 2 6 and 7

Paul alludes to something that he doesn't explain. He says that there is something restraining the man of lawlessness

And then he says to the Thessalonians, you know what I'm talking about Now this is fascinating because Rome has never dogmatically defined what he is talking about There is no inspired interpretation of this text of scripture.

He's making this up on the fly He's he's told us what the Roman Catholic position is is material sufficiency

And now he's gonna somehow tell us that Rome has interpreted this text dogmatically where Where is it?

I somehow You know Fitzmyer and Brown these others have have missed these dogmatic interpretations

Where is the dogmatic interpretation infallible commentary able? Where can I purchase that?

Is that on Amazon? I'd like to get it. How big is it? How many volumes is it? It doesn't exist and so to to argue like this again is to is to Engage in false advertising.

Oh folks We can tell you exactly what the Bible actually means come to Rome come home to Rome and then you get home to Rome And if you do any meaningful serious study in their theology you discover you've been lied to the whole time

Mr. White could establish from scripture alone what Paul was talking about that's found in tradition The early church fathers are very clear that what

Paul was talking about was the rule of law civil law That's the only thing the only interpretation you find nearly

Church Fathers Go listen to my debate with Jerry Matta ticks, which took place not too long after this on The subject of the papacy

And what well one took place before this then we did soul scripture and then and me and Pacwa listen to all these debates

What will you hear over and over and over again? Well, that's just that early Church Fathers opinion

That's that's that's not actually you know You know, they get to pick and choose

Here you have well the early Church Fathers. I mean, that's the only interpretation the early Church Fathers Okay. Well any other interpretation we just don't accept.

Well, this is again. This is this is not meaningful argumentation Civil society in the order that it establishes is holding back the man of sin now we could debate that issue

But that is in fact an apostolic tradition that is preserved outside of scripture Mr.

White says there's no evidence that Paul intended for all traditions to be continued But Paul said in 2nd

Thessalonians 2 15 stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you have been given

Actually, what I said was what Paul was talking about was the gospel. He wasn't even listening closely enough to my

Explanation even though what my whole point was now I want to address that because I think that's where mr White really fell number one the word that that Paul used there is paradosis that implies handing on that means handing on the

Greek or pardon me the Latin The Latin word Latin cognate for that is trader a the

Latin infinitive verb and that means to hand on So the very word that Paul is using implies the continuation of this.

Yes. We are to hand on the gospel. That's But my challenge of course had been if you want to try to say that what was taught

To the by the Apostles in these contexts has anything to do with the dogmas that have been defined by the

Roman Catholic Church then prove it they can't and they know it and Hence they have to engage in this kind of argumentation.

Mr. White would be hard -pressed to Harmonize his interpretation of this passage with Paul's express command to hand on tradition second

Timothy 2 How's he gonna explain that I? Discussed second

Timothy 2 2 and even cited Tertullian about it that had to do with Paul's public teaching. Are you now ready? Mr.

Madrid to demonstrate that Paul publicly taught the things that you define as dogma on the basis of tradition

That's why they won't debate tradition That's why they won't take the positive side on this because they can't their position is not defensible

Paul says hand on this tradition and it's oral We're not denying that scripture is part of tradition.

What do you mean? It's oral which you make up your mind if you believe in material sufficiency that oral tradition is now in Scripture.

Is it not? See this back and forth back and forth, you know, do they not think that their audience is smart enough to follow this

It's amazing to me. We're not denying this scripture is part of the tradition of the church part Part part you just said the rub -together position is

And he's constantly faulting me First about misrepresenting him when he can't figure out what his position is to begin with on Mr.

White is denying that all tradition plays a part. He's going smack dab in the face of what scripture says Finally, mr.

White You made a lot of Emphasis about the word stake it's a and you said that if you at least you implied that this

If this means that this oral tradition is not to be handed on any further It was once for all delivered and that I didn't say that.

I never I don't even I can't even recognize the position He's currently refuting. It wasn't what

I said Because if he was going to be doing what I said, the emphasis of what I said was what that was the gospel

That's just Well notice the problem with that If this disproves the continuation of handing on this oral tradition, it also disproves the handing on of the written tradition as well

Because in that passage Paul says Stanford and hold fast to both stake it a

Stand there. Hold on to it. So if that just proves the transmission of oral Teaching it also disproves the continuation of written teaching as well

The problem of the cannon was brought up many times. Mr. White did not address that. I Think that in my closing remark

I didn't address on something that all of you are familiar with and all of you know At least down in your heart of hearts is

At least an indication that solar scripture is not true You can open your yellow pages when you get home tonight and look at all the different so -called

Bible believing denominations Which claim to go by the Bible alone none of which agree on not only the essentials

I mean not only the non -essential issues, but also the essential issues Salvation and you lose it once you get it.

What about infant baptism again? This is his Anarchy argument it has been it is

I've identified many times as the single worst argument against all the scripture it is extremely poor

Eric's fences an excellent job in exposing the faulty reasoning and logic behind this and has Demonstrated that the entire form of argumentation misses all sorts of contains all sorts of category errors and things like that We've already addressed this.

I really want to get this done. Let the Lord suffer. What about baptismary generation? Mr. White? Whole segments of Protestantism disagree with you on that issue

But about all the liberal Catholic miracles DD Warfield one of your mentors wrote vociferously against that many

Protestants hold to it What about the perpetual virginity of Mary Luther and Calvin believed in her perpetual virginity?

Mr. White doesn't Remember who was just complaining that I brought up all sorts of things that weren't relevant to solo scripture

Who just now brought up about 14 different topics just to do the scattergun bomb effect right at the end of the debate?

Fusion reigning among Protestantism all of them claiming to go by the Bible alone None of them able to meet entirely on what the

Bible means now Jesus or pardon me Paul said in 1st Corinthians 110 I appeal to you brothers in the name of our

Lord Jesus Christ that all of you agree with one another so that there may Be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought

So let's get to her has been a blueprint for anarchy folks Just trace the historical record back to the time of the

Reformation and look at all the competing sects that have arisen In my final minute, I want to say that I didn't come here to win arguments.

I came here to share the truth I came here to invite you all to the fullness of the truth, which is found in the

Catholic Church And I'd like to use the words of a famous Catholic apologist

Edmund Campion who was a priest he was formerly a Protestant and he converted to the Catholic Church He wrote this letter and I hope you will give me a couple seconds over if I if I go over 10 or 15 seconds 12 minutes left

Okay Okay. Yeah, I'm always said at 10. Okay. Okay, so I have two minutes left.

I would like to use his words to Make my own tonight Because I know that many of you are not

Catholic and I know that many of you run the risk of going to hell If you do not accept the truth that Jesus Christ is offering to you.

That's a very ecumenical if you leave this room tonight and you suppress sounds almost

Phenia doubt that may be in your heart about what mr White is saying tonight or the the questioning that may be in your heart about whether or not the

Catholic Church is the true church You have to answer to God at some point you have to answer to me or mr.

White I'm inviting you to consider to study to pray about the

Catholic position. No get extra time in the Mormon sense of the word I mean that we're biblical sense of the word

Here's what I've been camping. He got 12 minutes. I say this all to all of you and I also say it

Respectfully and with some affection for mr. White Many innocent hands are lifted up to heaven for you daily by those

Catholics around the world Those Catholic apologists whose posterity shall never die

Which beyond the seas gathering virtue and sufficient knowledge for the purpose are determined never to give you over But either to win you for heaven or to die upon your pikes

Be it known to you that we have made a league All the

Catholics in the world whose succession and multitude must overarch all practices of the

Protestant world And cheerfully will carry the cross you shall lay upon us and never despair for your recovery

While we have a man left to enjoy your tibern or to be racked with your torments or consumed with your prisons

The expenses reckoned the enterprise has begun. It is of God. Don't think about the position right now

So the faith was planted so it must be restored If these my offers tonight be refused and my endeavors can take no place

And I having run thousands of miles to do you good shall be rewarded with rigor thousands of miles

He lives in San Diego to recommend your case in mind to Almighty God the searcher of hearts

Who sends us his grace and set us at a chord before the day of payment to the end?

We may at last be friends in heaven when all injuries shall be forgotten. I pray tonight

That you don't leave this alone here and that you continue to search for the truth

And I hope to see all of you in heaven Sunday. Thank you very much That does not sound very ecumenical what happened to separated brethren anyway.

Oh, well like I said many times I can I can respect a Conservative Roman Catholic that says you're going to hell if you reject the message of Rome a little bit more than I can the

Ecumenist who says well. Yeah, I know the Pope has said you really have to believe, but you know we're much more open -minded now

It's new well. There is the entirety of the debate once again. We have played it

I would challenge Patrick Madrid to play both the debates on his own radio programs

Go ahead do the same thing Comment on them do the same thing Be happy to you know,

I'd love to love to hear you do that. I wonder why they won't We've now played the the entirety of the

Bible answer man appearance of Jimmy Akin and myself we've played the entirety of the veneration of saints and angels debate and now we've played the entirety of the solo scriptura debate and I think we've demonstrated numerous errors on my opponents parts and numerous inconsistencies as well

And many people have commented that they have found this to be extremely helpful. So I'm gonna need to be thinking about What's the next what we're gonna do?

because evidently people really do enjoy and we take the time to take these debates slow them down and Comment upon the things that we didn't get to comment on necessarily during the debate itself

Lord willing be here again Thursday afternoon Taking your calls and who knows maybe we'll have made up our mind by then as to which one could be addressing

But we'll see then. Thanks for listening. God bless We need

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