Atheists Vs. Christians Roundtable | Analysis & Reaction

The Setup of the At-Home Debate Exercise

Okay, so for those of you that are listening to the audio version of the show. What the room is set up guys is you have people that are coming in split. There's six people but they're split down the middle.

Three of them are atheists and three of them are Christians. And what they have is a semicircle set of chairs, and they're inviting everybody to come in and sit down. And and right now this video is just getting prepped for their discussion.

So, let me go ahead and play this little bit more and now they're splitting the room. So atheists are going to one side and Christians are going to the other side. And now a contentious topic they've jumped right in with the worst question or statement possible but what they're doing is they're they're giving them statements and They're asking the Christians and the atheists if they agree with the statement to come and sit down In the center of the room with the chairs and discuss it.

And so the first thing they said was pineapple belongs on pizza, which we all know. The answer is false. Yes.

My wife will not have a pizza unless there's pineapple on it.

I like the taste of the cheese the sauce and the bread. That's it. It's like candy. Those like having candy on.

Right.

Certainty, Faith, and the Christian Posture Toward Belief

So here's where it gets interesting which by the way just to start off here as an exercise I think this is pretty cool. You know you start with something light and fun where people can joke and get to know each other a little bit.

You see the benefits in doing something like this, right guys.

Yeah, completely. Bringing in the the ones who agree first and then they shortly discuss and then the disagreeers come in and they have a chance to Engage. I think it's a I think it's pretty good setup.

Right, right. Well now we're getting to the good stuff. Here we go. Another light question. I'm nervous about what's going to happen today.

I mean this by the way guys they do this with all their videos that that question if you watch because they I also watched a couple of the others that they Do and so this is a I think a helpful icebreaker, right?

Right. This is this is just great good stuff so far.

The normal topic that people can usually talk about but in this Climate is very touchy to even say I believe I don't believe. It's funny. I would think that you would feel safer in the belief category than I feel in the non-belief category.

Okay. Did you hear what she just said? You would feel safer so this is an atheist talking and she's talking to a Christian and she's saying, you know, this is interesting. I think you would feel safer in the belief category than I would feel in the non-belief category.

I don't agree with that. You're what's your hot take on that little statement right there.

Well, I can understand why she I Can understand why she would think that? Because I think she's coming from a vantage point that there's not many non-believers or at least she's in a minority as a non-believer.

Right, so I think she would kind of project and think that Christians Wouldn't have anything to be nervous about they're in the majority in society. And so why would they be nervous in this kind of an engagement?

It's probably where she's come from, right?

Yeah, so I I think that this is something that I've noticed in other conversations, too. I think that with a couple of exceptions. One exception being you're in a field where a lot of people you're working every day in a field where a lot of people necessarily agree with you so I'm thinking about You're an evolutionary biologist on one side or you're in seminary on the other.

In general, I think both Christians and atheists tend to look at themselves as being in the cultural minority. I've noticed this about both groups of people now. I'm coming from a certain vantage point whereas I think that is certainly more true about Christians in general than it is about atheists.

But I do think it's true that atheists in general do tend to see themselves Outside of a couple very particular circumstances as being in the minority. Yeah, I just see that statement as a.

Canard that is thrown around a lot. I'm not gonna get into the psychology of this Lady, you know, I don't I don't know if she really believes that or not but this dichotomy between believers and non-believers as Being characterized as certainty versus uncertainty is just really misleading and it's unhelpful.

I.

Like the Christian being on the side of certainty and the non-believer is on the side of uncertainty as if to say that certainty.

Is.

It has a negative connotation and uncertainty is virtuous. I just completely reject that. I don't think that Christians I Wouldn't even describe it as such. Christians are marked by their trust in God.

They're not marked by their You know their certainty in God. Would it. Would you agree with that statement guys? Yeah to a degree.

I think to some extent her Suspicions here. I think you're gonna be a little bit validated in the video with one of the people. Right, and I think How you classified at certain versus uncertain she would probably classify it as curious Versus convinced or a curious versus closed off or something like that.

So curiosity would maybe be the virtuous trait there. Yeah, I.

Think we need to be careful how we use the word certainty there because I think in you know, if you're talking about philosophy and justified belief Certainty has a very different connotation than when people use it colloquially.

So in other words. Like not being 100 certain but being 90 certain. That's certainly, you know Acceptable in terms of Christianity. I think if you're only 20 certain that God exists and you're putting your trust in him, there might be a kind of an odd Contradiction there that would need a lot of Examination so I don't want to divorce those things too much from each other if that makes sense.

I guess it's helpful to define.

Certainty there. So I'm glad you brought that up and and I'm on your side on this one Logan. It's just that it's at some point faith Plays a fundamental role in in the Christians life and where that faith is there.

You know 100 certainty in the existence of God leaves no room for the faith aspect of that. So so that's what that's what I mean, but once we start to get into these kind of weird dichotomous categories Then it's almost as if by default the the non-believer is the one who is virtuous because they are less certain when in actuality in my experience non-believers are Like tremendously certain about their positions.

They just they they I don't know they throw that on the Christian and and I think it's misplaced.

So.

Let's let's keep going. Let's see what's happened. I was raised in a house very culturally Jewish. We talked a lot about God and religion and many different religions of the world. But I wasn't raised with any faith with any religious faith in the house.

Just two years ago. I hated Christians. I think I was atheist but I voiced all my doubts and skepticisms and they Gave me their perspective on it that kind of opened me up and that's why I'm a man of faith today.

I already like this guy.

Yeah.

Okay, so there is another statement I believe there is good in every person. Watch two atheists stay on the sidelines guys check this out.

All the Christians I think if I just choose to believe that everyone is surely bad or evil.

Then that's gonna be pretty. And then you have to decide what what the definition of good is.

Like according to Christianity, there's no one good. No, not one, but I don't necessarily believe that if no one's good. With us in nature, yeah, so that's hard is like my definition of good may not align with scripture.

So it's hard because that's why I hesitated. My definition of good may not align with Scripture. This is a person from the Christian side talking and my immediate thought is who let her in.

Her responses are very interesting throughout this and this is one of the first sort of kind of head tilt moments here because she leads Off saying that the Christian position is no one is good. No, not one, but then she says but I don't know if I can believe that so.

It's almost like she is being self-contradictory In her own statements right here right off the bat. And so she's she's a very interesting participant here.

Logan what do you think?

Yeah, I think that's. Those are good things to point out. One of the things that I'm kind of interested in. Sort of a give-and-take because these three Christians that are on their side of the panel kind of represent a an array of What we might call expressions of Christianity, right?

I don't really imagine these three easily going to the same Congregation, right? No, and so that's kind of an interesting thing to watch the interplay because I find it. So she takes issue with the statement that no one is good.

No, not one, but I noticed that the Guy who will learn his name is Jeremy. He points out that we're born with the same nature, but he sat down with the agreeers and. So right I find that really interesting and like that just brings up in my mind.

House.

It'll be interesting to see how some of the things that we think of as simplistic dichotomy. Yes or no questions I'm gonna get teased out with nuances. Because each of the because each of the Christians and each of the atheists has slightly different layering to them.

Well before we jump back into the video, like the first thought that I had was how would I respond to this statement? You know, I believe there is good in every person. Like how how would you guys respond to that?

Would you qualify it? Would you agree and but qualify it or would you deny it? Like what do you guys think?

Go ahead Logan.

So I I think my answer is different if I'm asked it in this context versus if I'm directly asked it by a friend because what I the intention that is usually behind this question that is not spoken is more or less a dichotomy.

Are people born good or people born bad because. The tendency it tends to be we are only bad because we are taught bad like we're born good and then corrupted.

Right, right.

And I'm even not liking how I'm describing it right then but. And I think I think that in other words to say an unqualified. Yes to this question would be inherently to undercut the biblical doctrine of the fall and not just of the said nature but of the fallen nature of the world in general.

And you know that has all kinds of Connections and interplaying there. And so I think I would be more or less say if a friend asked me that question I would probably say no, I don't think that in the way that You that I think that you're saying and then kind of tease out definitions here.

I might sit down but if I did I would have to qualify it and say I don't really believe that you know everybody, you know kind of the the Thing we see playing out kind of a lot of times in secular culture.

Which is everybody is actually good if you dig down deep enough. I mean really you dig down deep enough. You find that everybody is at least a little bit evil and we need to confront those things. I think we need to do this.

Exercise with clay Jones and have him respond. No, but Gene. Do you think that Romans 3. So the young lady that that quoted Romans 3 do you think that she did that appropriately?

I.

Don't think so. So in the context of how she's trying to answer this because I think I think what she's trying to do is is treat that as a Like a blanket from from birth guilty of sin type of a thing and and Logan I think that's what you were getting to a little bit where if you were answering this with A friend and you were assuming some background in the question that you would say, okay He must be talking about guilty from birth that kind of thing and how would you answer it then but I think with This type of setup.

It's inviting the nuance. Okay, so if I had to answer this question on a Yes or no true or false You know on paper question and then I just went on the next one didn't have any chance to dialogue or explain my answer.

Then my answer may be different than in this scenario and in this scenario I I would sit down and agree with this There is good in everyone and what I mean by that or how I would interpret that is that people are capable of good acts.

They know the difference between good and evil and so they are capable of doing good that does not mean that people are righteous or that being good means they are earning salvation or are Innocent before God or any of that kind of stuff.

That's all extra baggage that gets lumped into it. And part of the nuance that I think is invited into this discussion. Mm. Yeah.

So just.

Go ahead Logan. I was just gonna say if I was going to use very simplistic Christian ease I might say We have a sin nature and we were also created in the image of God and both of those things are true.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean and to clarify gene, you know original sin is Something that's in the Bible. Do you what. What we're trying to get at here with the Christian view is that people are not inherently good?

They're not innately good, but that they are capable of performing good deeds. I mean, you know, the atheist can self-sacrifice and give to charity and do a lot of what Christians do.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and those are good things. And so people are capable of doing good. And so with that background, I would say there's good in everyone. But yeah, like you said we're born with a sin nature that's that's the Christian doctrine and so we we all we all are guilty of sin and Because of that we're not all righteous.

We're not all innocent before God. Everyone needs the sacrifice of Jesus to account for them and to Be the propitiation for their sins. So and that's again, that's part of the nuance. That's part of why you sit down and then the other side sits down and you discuss which I think is a cool thing.

About this template here, right? Right. All right, let's keep going.

Moral Goodness, the Fall, and Romans 3

I want to believe everybody's good. If that's antithetical to the Christian belief is that you're born. It's simple. It's interesting that the three of you came. Yeah, we're believers.

She points out. I'm not saying there.

Right, right, right, which is you know, the the young lady I don't know if we know her name yet who said my definition of good might not align with Scripture. She got herself into a little bit of trouble.

There. Yeah, so in terms of an apologetic. Like if we're thinking about how to present your faith or the Christian belief system to non-believers and to defend it. Saying something like here's what the Bible says, but I don't think that's right.

It's not a good place to start. We want to we want to try and be a little more nuanced there and try to step through What we mean through that a little bit better. In fact a lot better than what she did here and and you know trying trying to be a little bit gracious.

She's on the spot with with all these questions. Everyone is they all are.

Yeah, I wonder at the end of the day and it never really comes out in this video. I wonder if she holds a little bit more to the progressive side who might not hold to let's say inerrancy but Maybe the inspiration of Scripture, but the Bible has contradictions and mistakes in them.

But anyway, let's keep going people are innately good.

I'm saying all I just understood the question as all people are capable of.

Correct.

That's a really helpful.

Start with Hitler and go from. There are people, you know, or some people born good and turn bad.

Okay, so these are the two atheists that were on the sidelines who did not agree with this.

They are now speaking up. I think that's what the definition of good is subjective. That's why it's like each to each his own for definition.

Yeah, I don't know what is right or wrong without the Bible because it's God that makes the rules without God You have no rules.

Okay. Okay, I tried to pause it. So here comes this older gentleman. His name is Jeremy and I don't know about you guys, but I kept watching the faces of the Atheists react to Jeremy whenever he spoke.

Did you guys note that? Yeah.

It's it grows more notable throughout the video, right?

Right and. This you know, we don't know. Right or wrong? Without the Bible. He also Got himself into a little bit of trouble, right guys.

Yeah, definitely. The Bible says that we we are created in his image and and. Without the Bible you still are in his image and you still have an innate knowledge of of the difference in good and evil.

You don't need the Bible to know that very general revelation, right? A lot of times we make the distinction between a general revelation and a specific revelation like the Bible. You can you can come to?

Conclusions on the difference between what's good and evil without the Bible telling you so and and so this guy he's he this is. If you know, it's very long, but this is where he starts to kind of trip over himself in terms of his presentation.

Right only let me let me finish the video here real quick Logan and then you can jump in.

You know, you can't make a decision on your own whether it's good or bad. What about Hitler? He made a decision.

He thought it was good and he was wrong. You don't need the Bible to tell you that.

Well, you're born with that. God put that in you. Conscious as you believe. That's not a belief. It's a fact. Okay, we're gonna say Logan.

Well, actually what I was about to say is that's Romans 1 right that God does bestow a conscience on people so that even without specific revelation There's the general revelation. I mean this is what the whole field of natural theology is about.

Right, and and so I think because of that I think that in cases like this it is most helpful to appeal to.

I.

Think there's a tactic choice here, right? So he's going directly to the Bible. I think you can go to the spirit of revelation without Trying to get people to inerrancy first to get there. You know what I mean?

So when she says In response to the Hitler question, right and he was wrong. I think immediately you need to ask Okay, why was he wrong and kind of get them to nail down? So she's talking about can you decide for yourself?

And so when she says he's wrong Okay, what is this? What are we comparing this to? What's the standard? We both agree that he was wrong, right? So what is the standard that it's hearkening back to and there.

I think you can have a more fruitful discussion. But we always need to be careful that we are not. We're speaking completely different languages if we are not appealing to the same Authority source and when the person you're talking to doesn't hold to the same source of authority in this case being scripture.

You have to appeal to to a common point starting point that you can both agree on.

Totally agree the more that. And this is not a this is not a comment on Jeremy the man the the person that's speaking here. It's just on his his speaking like his his arguments and the way that he reacts and stuff.

It's gonna get worse over time. It makes me cringe. I I feel for the I mean look. Both Jean and I at one point were non-believers, you know, and not too long ago in the distant past. So it's you know, we we understand well and Logan too.

I think that's your experience as well going back into childhood. So. Well, I hope I'm not misspeaking there but anyway, like I think we can put ourselves in the shoes of a non-believer and and just go.

When we hear this guy is you know? It's really bad. And I better I agree with you Logan a better approach is to appeal to The ground of it the ground of morality and the ground of conscience, you know.

My Bible as a Christian tells me that God is the source of right and wrong. Where do you derive it from if there is no God? I think that's a much better conversation. What do you think Jane?

Yeah.

Notice to that. He he just starts right off the bat with a declarative statement. That is very Adversarial right. It's he knows and everyone in there knows that what he just said There is is the reason that everyone is there divided into these two groups and him just stating that without Asking questions or sort of bringing it out of people Is part of why it's so abrasive and it's not a good tactic and he's not going to be very convincing with anyone here.

And he's even you know, we'll see later in the video the other two Christians that are in the room there. He even kind of alienates them a little bit with with his tact.

Right. Well, and you know when doing what I think we suggest which is go to the Go to the ground, you know, what is the ground of morality? How do you explain the human conscience if there is no God a lot of skeptics would like to point out?

Evolution there they'd like to go there, you know. And but I just want to point that out that like usually when they do that they're equivocating, you know. On the one hand we talk about good we're talking about moral goods, but in an evolutionary sense Sense the only things that are good are Functionary, you know the the word good describes something that that works.

Well, it functions. Well, that's it. It doesn't explain Morality at all. So to point to evolution in this kind of a discussion is to not answer the question about where morality comes from. Because skeptics and atheists have no answer for this and that's why we suggest that you do that.

But let's let's keep going.

I'm an author of two books where I give the whole history of the earth from paleontology geology Archaeology. Published about four articles on numerous subjects including politics science meteorites dinosaurs.

Worth, Value, and the Image of God

Okay, so the statement is I believe my life has worth and value. Here come everybody to sit down except for one atheist again. Isn't that fascinating?

Yes, I would want people to think that they have worth and value but I mean we are all ants on a big ball.

We are all very important.

Okay, look at that face. Look at that fit. So Jeremy interjects Interrupts and look at her reaction if this happens over and over and over again. This guy has already lost all credibility with this woman and she's not even trying to hide it.

And here's the thing I bet if you ask Jeremy how he's doing, he would probably say I'm doing a great job. You know, but I'm sorry. I don't you know, but you know, I mean like but with this woman he I think he's wasting a lot of his words.

Well, and also this woman is the least adversarial of the atheist. Right, so which I feel like is significant and like she's someone I would love to sit down and have a conversation with you know. Absolutely.

No, I feel like she like is very Conversational and kind of give-and-take during the whole discussion. True true. What are you gonna say Jean?

Just gonna say he's he's lost his audience already With in the span of two questions, you know, he's he's lost any ability to communicate with the non-believers and give a persuasion To his side with with the way he's answering.

And and you know, we talked about certainty a little bit ago. We want believers to have a sense of certainty, right? We want them to be confident. This is part of why we do apologetics to give you good reasons to believe right?

But that confidence cannot come off as a arrogance or a Dismissiveness to other viewpoints or other other opinions. In the way that Jeremy kind of is coming off here. And you know if he's if he were a younger Christian You know if I were discipling him or something I say you need to take a year or two or five and just listen to people and not speak up.

Learn what other people are saying and just think through them in your own head and not don't don't jump in with your. With your two cents you have your two cents, that's great. Hold on to it for a little while.

Let's massage that two cents for a couple years and then be able to present it in a more Less objectionable fashion, right? So you can help other people maybe come to the degree of certainty or the degree of.

Faith that you're at. Well, and this is why this ministry exists. Okay, we assume. Considering where we're at where I can't even talk considering where we're at right now in 2020 we assume that.

Our.

Subscribers the readers that come to our blog the people that are watching the live stream right now All have a general level some degree level of knowledge when it comes to theology and apologetics. Okay, we're not.

We don't assume that. Somebody coming to our website the typical person is just knows nothing. So what we're trying to do is is get folks to be better more effective communicators. We know you know the right answer because you are tremendously smart and beautiful people.

But it just you have worth and value. You have worth and value.

But it takes it takes control to do what Gina is suggesting which is keep What you know to yourself and just let people talk at least initially. Let's let's finish this off the.

Design and those things if a man were to design it It would cost several million dollars to make a human if that were possible and yet he's God has created billions of us.

Here comes the eight. I believe in people. I believe we make our own choices. I don't believe that there is a overriding being. Controlling those choices or controlling our situation. You are important.

I'm. So I do not think that inherently just existing gives you worth and value. I watch this.

Okay, watch what she does. She contradicts herself in the span of it. Just a couple seconds. Make choices.

Personal choices every single day on how you live your life and how you treat people and how you Exist in the world and those.

Well, hold on. You just made a definition about what value is, but you still don't believe you're valuable based on your explanation.

I said, I'm not inherently valuable. My to my being born does not just based on your contribution to the world. Don't know please don't. There are many people who just exist because of instinct or because.

Do their lives have value. I don't know if they find value in it. Sure, if they don't maybe not. Who am I to judge whether somebody's life is inherently valuable.

Okay, so she just she took that was a really ironic buzzer right there. But she she said something and then she took it right back, you know a moment ago she said I don't believe it any like Inherently existing gives you worth or something like that and then she turns around and says well There are many people who just exist.

Do they have value if they find value in it? Sure, it's just gobbledygook. But here's the thing. Did you see again this time when what's-his-name Peter? Started to interrupt she clearly got triggered.

And so this particular lady, what's-her-name Nancy? I Think I think she's clearly triggered by the two gentlemen. And I think we're gonna find out why as the video goes on but what's your take here guys.

So.

When we find out what what it is, it's triggering for her. Later on in the video. I don't want to spoil it because you know, like complete package and all but I think there is a Very specific reason I think there's a specific person.

She's thinking of when they're talking about that. Everybody has worth when I think we tend to so we tend to think about that in turn especially Christians. In terms of I have do I have inherent worth and we think about it in terms I think a lot of times that people who think my sin is so awful.

How could God ever let me into heaven for that sort of thing? But we don't always think about people who have been through terrible experiences. Does the person who inflicted those terrible experiences on me is that person inherently valuable?

That's a more difficult question to wrestle with and I think that's where she's Ultimately coming from and I think that that is why it's really important to get to know and understand where people are coming from.

Right. Well, and I think a part of this is just her trying to find her own words. You know, this is this happens to the best of us where you know. We start to speak but we're not entirely sure where we're going with it and and we're trying to find it as the words come out.

The problem is I think if you would ask Peter the guy that interrupted her. He's probably trying to clarify what she's talking about because she's not articulating herself very well. But in her mind, she's probably thinking that he's trying to manipulate her words and use them against her.

And that's why it's so vitally important that we let people Talk and and you know, I'm not excited.

Go ahead notice to that when so she reacts very defensively when he asked the clarifying question and he doesn't respond in kind. Right. He just says hey look I'm just trying to you know understand what you're saying and she stopped.

With the defensive she kind of went back to the same tone that she had before that and that just shows how. Being careful not to escalate tension in a situation like that is really helpful. Right? Right.

What were you gonna say Jean?

I I was just gonna kind of comment on this topic and generally aside from from from her stuff this is being able to say whether you have worth or not if someone is to a point in their life or in their Outlook on humanity where they don't feel like even they have any worth at all.

Then.

More times than not you're dealing with an emotional objection, right? And we've talked before about how emotional the walls of emotional objections can be. Higher and thicker than any intellectual walls you may ever come across.

And so in those instances. You may not even be the right person to ever put a put a crack in those walls. And you kind of just have to be okay with that. Well, you can ask questions and stuff, but. And we'll see maybe a little later on with her.

They're just gonna be some people that she is not gonna be very welcoming to. Well and just reading the room, right?

She was not as bothered by The the young lady when the young lady essentially did the same thing that Peter did As she was when Peter did it. So clearly there's an element here of just a male with you know Challenging her a bit that gets her going.

So yeah, you're right. And that all comes back to you got to know who you're talking to you got to know who is standing in front of you and you got to figure all that stuff out before you start giving your message.

Because you you could be. That's the difference between somebody effective and like a Jeremy. So let's let's continue on. I Don't know if this is coming through on the audio.

It says I have had doubts about the existence of a higher power. Yeah a woman of faith and belief I believe in the supernatural and higher power and a being that there's no accident and in the way we were created.

Doubt, Faith, and the Burden of Proof

Yeah, I think anytime I have gone through hardship. I've questioned not just what I believe. I questioned my life. I questioned my profession. I questioned my relationship. So I think you know, if you believe whether it's Islam Hindu I think you have to doubt it.

You can't just jump in there and be like sign me up. I agree with everything.

That would be for you, but not stop for everybody that is a believer of any particular religion, okay.

Hold on wait for it. Wait for it. People don't question anything.

Well, the definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe. It's not a declaration, okay, okay. Okay. Okay.

I.

Was waiting for it.

Later there's a really interesting editing. There's really interesting editing that follows this clip too, right?

Let me finish. Let's let her finish with operation per se that there is no God. I am an atheist activist. I'm on the board of atheists United here in Los Angeles and on the steering committee for Americans United for separation of church and state.