Atheists Vs. Christians Roundtable | Analysis & Reaction

Wise Disciple

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:16

Okay, so for those of you that are listening to the audio version of the show What the room is set up guys is you have people that are coming in split

00:27

There's six people but they're split down the middle three of them are atheists and three of them are Christians And what they have is a semicircle set of chairs and they're inviting everybody to come in and sit down And and right now this video is just getting prepped for their discussion

00:43

So, let me go ahead and play this And now they're splitting the room so atheists are going to one side and Christians are going to the other side

01:03

And now a contentious topic they've jumped right in with the worst question or statement possible but what they're doing is they're they're giving them statements and they're asking the

01:13

Christians and the atheists if Agree with the statement to come and sit down In the center of the room with the chairs and discuss it

01:21

And so the first thing they said was pineapple belongs on pizza, which we all know the answer is false. Yes My wife will not have a pizza unless there's pineapple on it

01:33

You can try anything. Yeah Pizza I Like the taste of the cheese the sauce in the bread, that's it.

01:46

It's like it's like candy though It's like having candy on the pizza No So here's where it gets interesting which by the way just to start off here as an exercise

02:06

I think this is pretty cool You know, you start with something light and fun where people can joke and get to know each other a little bit

02:13

You see the benefits in doing something like this, right guys Yeah completely

02:18

Bringing in the the ones who agree first and then they shortly discuss and then the disagreers come in and they have a chance to Engage, I think it's a

02:25

I think it's pretty good setup, right? Right? Well now we're getting to the good stuff. Here we go

02:34

Another light question, I'm nervous about what's going to happen today I mean this by the way guys they do this with all their videos that that question

02:45

If you watch because they I also watched a couple of the others that they Do and so this is a

02:51

I think a helpful icebreaker, right? Right. This is this is just great good stuff So far the normal topic that people can usually talk about but in this climate is very

03:02

Touchy to even say I believe I don't believe It's funny. I would think that You would feel safer in the belief category than I feel in the non -belief category

03:14

Okay, did you hear what she just said You would feel safer so this is an atheist talking and she's talking to a

03:22

Christian and she's saying, you know, this is interesting I think you would feel safer in the belief category than I would feel in the non -belief category

03:31

I don't agree with that You're what's your hot take on that little statement right there

03:39

I Can understand why she would think that Because I think she's coming from a vantage point that there's not many non -believers or at least she's in a minority as a non -believer

03:50

Right, so I think she would kind of project and think that Christians Wouldn't have anything to be nervous about they're in the majority in society

03:59

And so why would they be nervous in this kind of an engagement? It's probably where she's coming from, right? Yeah, so I I think that this is something that I've noticed in other conversations, too

04:08

I think that with a couple of exceptions One exception being you're in a field where a lot of people you're working every day in a field where a lot of people

04:18

Necessarily agree with you. So I'm thinking about You're an evolutionary biologist on one side or you're in seminary on the other

04:24

In general, I think both Christians and atheists tend to look at themselves as being in the cultural minority

04:32

I've noticed this about both groups of people now I'm coming from a certain vantage point Whereas I think that is certainly more true about Christians in general than it is about atheists

04:43

But I do think it's true that atheists in general do tend to see themselves Outside of a couple very particular circumstances as being in the minority.

04:53

Yeah, I just see that statement as a Canard that is thrown around a lot.

05:00

I'm not gonna get into the psychology of this Lady, you know, I don't I don't know if she really believes that or not but this dichotomy between believers and non -believers as Being characterized as certainty versus uncertainty is just really misleading and it's unhelpful

05:16

Like the Christian being on the side of certainty and the non -believer is on the side of uncertainty as if to say that certainty is

05:23

It Has a negative connotation and uncertainty is virtuous.

05:29

I just completely reject that. I don't think that Christians I Wouldn't even describe it as such

05:35

Christians are marked by their trust in God. They're not marked by their You know their certainty in God Would you agree with that statement guys?

05:49

Yeah to a degree. I think to some extent her Suspicions here.

05:55

I think you're gonna be a little bit validated in the video with one of the Right and I think

06:03

How you classified at certain versus uncertain she would probably classify it as curious Versus convinced or curious versus closed off or something like that.

06:13

So curiosity would maybe be the virtuous trait there Yeah, I think we need to be careful how we use the word certainty there because I think in you know if you're talking about philosophy and justified belief

06:26

Certainty has a very different connotation than when people use it colloquially. So in other words

06:33

Like not being 100 % certain but being 90 % certain that's certainly, you know

06:39

Acceptable in terms of Christianity. I think if you're only 20 % certain that God exists and you're putting your trust in him

06:47

There might be a kind of an odd Contradiction there that would need a lot of Examination so I don't want to divorce those things too much from each other if that makes sense.

06:59

I guess it's helpful to define certainty there So I'm glad you brought that up and and I'm on your side on this one

07:07

Logan. It's just that it's at some point faith Plays a fundamental role in in the

07:13

Christians life and where that faith is there Yeah, you know 100 % certainty in the existence of God leaves no room for the faith aspect of that So so that's what that's what

07:28

I mean But once we start to get into these kind of weird dichotomous categories Then it's almost as if by default the the non -believer is the one who is virtuous because they are less certain when in actuality in my experience non -believers are

07:43

Like tremendously certain about their positions they just they they I don't know they throw that on the

07:50

Christian and and I think it's misplaced so Let's let's keep going.

07:55

Let's see what's happened. I was raised in a house very culturally Jewish. We talked a lot about God and religion and many different religions of the world

08:04

But I wasn't raised with any faith with any religious faith in the house

08:10

Just two years ago, I hated Christians I think I was atheist but I voiced all my doubts and skepticisms and they

08:18

Gave me their perspective on it that kind of opened me up. And that's why I'm a man of faith today

08:23

I already like this guy Yeah Right, okay, so there is another statement

08:36

I believe there is good in every person watch to atheists stay on the sidelines guys. Check this out

08:44

All the Christians think if I just choose to believe that everyone is purely bad or evil Then that's gonna be pretty and then you have to decide what what the definition of good is

08:54

Like according to Christianity, there's no one good. No, not one, but I don't necessarily believe that if no one's good

09:00

I don't want with us in nature. Yeah, so that's hard is like my definition of good may not align with Scripture So it's hard because that's why

09:08

I hesitated like my definition of good may not align with Scripture. This is a person from the

09:14

Christian side talking and my immediate thought is who let her in Her responses are very interesting throughout this and this is one of the first sort of kind of Head -tilt moments here because she leads off saying that the

09:29

Christian position is no one is good No, not one, but then she says but I don't know if I can believe that so It's almost like she is being self -contradictory

09:40

In her own statements right here right off the bat. And so she's she's a very interesting participant here

09:48

Logan what do you think? Yeah, I think that's Those are good things to point out one of the things that I'm kind of interested in is a sort of a give -and -take because these three

09:59

Christians that are on their side of the panel kind of represent a an array of What we might call expressions of Christianity, right?

10:09

I don't really imagine these three easily going to the same Congregation, right?

10:15

And so that's kind of an interesting thing to watch the interplay because I find it so she takes issue with the statement that no one is good.

10:23

No, not one, but I noticed that the Guy who will learn his name is Jeremy. He points out that we're born with the same nature, but he sat down with the agreeers and So I find that really interesting and like that just brings up in my mind house

10:40

It'll be interesting to see how some of the things that we think of as simplistic dichotomy yes or no questions

10:46

Kind of get teased out with nuances Because each of the because each of the

10:52

Christians and each of the atheists has slightly different layering to them Well before we jump back into the video, like the first thought that I had was how would

11:00

I respond to this statement? You know, I believe there is good in every person

11:06

Like how how would you guys respond to that? Would you qualify it?

11:12

Would you agree and but qualify it or would you deny it? Like what do you guys think? Go ahead

11:18

Logan So I I think my answer is different if I'm asked it in this context versus if I'm directly asked it by a friend because what

11:29

I the intention that is usually behind this question that is not spoken is More or less a dichotomy are people born good or people born bad because the tendency

11:40

Tends to be we are only bad because we are taught bad like we're born good and then corrupted, right?

11:47

Right. Mm -hmm, and I'm even not liking how I'm describing it right then but and I think

11:54

I think that in other words to say an unqualified yes to this question would be inherently to undercut the biblical doctrine of the fall and Not just of the sin nature but of the fallen nature of the world in general and you know

12:10

That has all kinds of connections and interplaying there And so I think I would be more or less say if a friend asked me that question

12:18

I would probably say no, I don't think that in the way that You that I think that you're saying and then kind of tease out definitions here.

12:27

I might sit down but if I did I would have to qualify it and Say, I don't really believe that you know everybody, you know kind of the the

12:39

Thing we see playing out kind of a lot of times in secular culture Which is everybody is actually good if you dig down deep enough

12:47

I mean really you dig down deep enough You find that everybody is a at least a little bit evil and we need to confront those things.

12:56

I think we need to do this Exercise with Clay Jones and have him respond.

13:01

No, but Gene, do you think that Romans 3 so the young lady that that quoted Romans 3?

13:06

Do you think that she did that appropriately? I don't think so.

13:12

So in the context of how she's trying to answer this because I think I think what she's trying to do

13:18

Is is treat that as a like a blanket from from birth guilty of sin

13:25

Type of a thing and and Logan I think that's what you were getting to a little bit where if you were answering this with a friend and you

13:31

Were assuming some background in the question that you would say, okay

13:36

He must be talking about guilty from birth that kind of thing. And how would you answer it then but I think with This type of setup.

13:44

It's inviting the nuance okay, so if I had to answer this question on a Yes or no true or false

13:51

You know on paper Question and then I just went on the next one didn't have any chance to dialogue or explain my answer

13:58

Then my answer may be different than in this scenario. And in this scenario, I I would sit down and agree with this

14:04

There is good in everyone and what I mean by that or how I would interpret that is that people are capable of good acts

14:11

They know the difference between good and evil and so they are capable of doing good That does not mean that people are righteous or that being good means they are earning salvation or are

14:24

Innocent before God or any of that kind of stuff That's all extra baggage that gets lumped into it and part of the nuance that I think is invited into this discussion

14:33

Yeah, so just Go ahead Logan. I was just gonna say if I was going to use very simplistic

14:41

Christian ease I might say That We have a sin nature and we were also created in the image of God and both of those things are true

14:50

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean and to clarify Jean, you know original sin is

14:56

Something that's in the Bible. Do you what what we're trying to get out here with the Christian view? Is that people are not inherently good.

15:04

They're not innately good, but that they are capable of performing good deeds I mean, you know, the atheist can self -sacrifice and give to charity and do a lot of what

15:11

Christians do Yes, yeah, yeah, and those are good things and so people are capable of doing good and so with that background

15:19

I would say there's good in everyone But yeah, like you said we're born with a sin nature that's that's the

15:28

Christian doctrine and so we we all we all are guilty of sin and Because of that we're not all righteous.

15:36

We're not all innocent before God everyone Needs the sacrifice of Jesus to account for them and to Be the propitiation for their sins.

15:46

So and that's again. That's part of the nuance That's part of why you sit down and then the other side sits down and you discuss which

15:52

I think is a cool thing about this Template here, right? Right. All right, let's keep going I want to believe everybody's good if that's antithetical to the

16:00

Christian belief is that you're born Is sinful it's interesting that the three of you came yeah, we're believers

16:10

She points out. I'm not saying there Right, right, right, which is you know, the the young lady

16:16

I don't know if we know her name yet who said my definition of good might not align with Scripture She got herself into a little bit of trouble

16:23

There. Yeah, so in terms of an apologetic Like if we're thinking about how to present your faith or the

16:30

Christian belief system to non -believers and to defend it Saying something like here's what the

16:37

Bible says, but I don't think that's right. It's not a good place to start We want to we want to try and be a little more nuanced there and try to step through What we mean through that a little bit better In fact a lot better than what she did here and and you know, try and trying to be a little bit gracious She's on the spot with with all these questions.

16:59

Everyone is they all are Yeah, I wonder at the end of the day and it never really comes out in this video

17:05

I wonder if she holds a little bit more to the progressive side who might not hold to let's say inerrancy, but Maybe the inspiration of Scripture, but the

17:14

Bible has contradictions and mistakes in them. But anyway, let's keep going people are innately good

17:19

I'm saying all I just understood the question as all people are capable of good.

17:25

That's right That's a really helpful Start with Hitler and go from there or people, you know, or some people born good and turned bad

17:36

Okay, so these are the two atheists that were on the sidelines who did not agree with this. They are now speaking up I think that's what the definition of good is subjective

17:43

That's why it's like each to each his own for definition Don't know what is right or wrong without the

17:49

Bible because it's God that makes the rules Without God, you know, you have no rules

17:54

Okay Okay, I tried to pause it. So here comes this older gentleman.

18:02

His name is Jeremy and I don't know about you guys, but I kept watching the faces of the atheists

18:11

React to Jeremy whenever he spoke. Did you guys note that? Yeah It grows more notable throughout the video, right?

18:21

right and This you know, we don't know Right or wrong

18:26

Without the Bible. He also Got himself into a little bit of trouble, right guys

18:35

Yeah, definitely The Bible says that we are created in his image and and Without the

18:44

Bible you still are in his image and you still have an innate knowledge of of the differencing in good and evil

18:50

You don't need the Bible to know that very general revelation, right? A lot of times we make the distinction between a general revelation and a specific revelation like the

18:59

Bible You can you can come to? Conclusions on the difference between what's good and evil without the

19:06

Bible telling you so and and so this guy he's he this is It's very long.

19:12

But if this is where he starts to kind of trip over himself in terms of his presentation, right? Let me let me finish the video here real quick Logan and then you can jump in You know, you can't make a decision on your own whether it's good or bad.

19:24

What about Hitler? He made a decision He thought it was good and he was wrong. You don't need the

19:30

Bible to tell you that well I you're born with that God put that in you

19:37

Nature that conscious as you believe that's not a belief. It's a fact. Okay, we need to say

19:43

Logan well, actually what I was about to say is that's Romans 1 right that God does bestow a conscience on people so that even without specific revelation

19:57

There's the general revelation. I mean, this is what the whole field of natural theology is about right? Yeah, and And so I think because of that I think that in cases like this it is most helpful to appeal to I Think there's a tactic choice here, right?

20:15

So he's going directly to the Bible. I think you can go to the spirit of revelation without Trying to get people to inerrancy first to get there.

20:26

You know what I mean? So when she says In response to the

20:31

Hitler question, right and he was wrong. I think immediately you need to ask

20:36

Okay, why was he wrong and kind of get them to nail down? So she's talking about can you decide for yourself?

20:43

And so when she says he's wrong Okay, what is this? What are we comparing this to?

20:49

What's the standard? We have both agreed that he was wrong, right? So what is the standard that it's hearkening back to and there

20:55

I think you can have a more fruitful discussion But we always need to be careful that we are not

21:02

We're speaking completely different languages if we are not appealing to the same

21:07

Authority source and when the person you're talking to doesn't hold to the same source of authority in this case being scripture

21:13

You have to appeal to a common point starting point that you can both agree on Totally agree

21:23

The more that and this is not a this is not a comment on Jeremy the man that the person that's speaking here

21:31

It's just on his his speaking like his his arguments and the way that he reacts and stuff

21:37

It's gonna get worse over time. It makes me cringe. I feel for the

21:43

I mean look Both Jean and I at one point were non -believers, you know, and not too long ago in the distant past So it's you know, we we understand well and Logan too.

21:53

I think that's your experience as well going back into childhood. So I hope

21:58

I'm not misspeaking there. But anyway, like I think we can put ourselves in the shoes of a non -believer and and just go

22:05

When we hear this guy is you know, it's really bad And I better I agree with you

22:12

Logan a better approach is to appeal to The ground of it the ground of morality and the ground of conscience, you know

22:19

My Bible as a Christian tells me that God is the source of right and wrong Where do you derive it from if there is no

22:25

God? I think that's a much better conversation. What do you think Jane? Yeah Notice to that.

22:32

He he just starts right off the bat with a declarative statement. That is very

22:39

Adversarial right it's he knows and everyone in there knows that what he just said There is is the reason that everyone is there divided into these two groups and him just stating that Without asking questions or sort of bringing it out of people

22:55

Is part of why it's so abrasive and it's not a good tactic and he's not going to be very convincing with anyone here

23:01

And he's even you know, we'll see later in the video the other two Christians that are in the room there He even kind of alienates them a little bit with with his tact

23:11

Right. Well, and you know when doing what I think we suggest which is go to the

23:18

Go to the ground, you know, what is the ground of morality? How do you explain the human conscience if there is no

23:24

God a lot of skeptics would like to point out Evolution there they'd like to go there, you know

23:31

And but I just want to point that out that like usually when they do that they're equivocating, you know On the one hand we talk about good.

23:37

We're talking about moral goods, but in an evolutionary sense The only things that are good are

23:45

Functionary, you know the the word good describes something that that works. Well, it functions. Well, that's it.

23:50

It doesn't explain Morality at all So to point to evolution in this kind of a discussion is to not answer the question about where morality comes from Because skeptics and atheists have no answer for this and that's why we suggest that you do that But let's let's keep going

24:06

I'm an author of two books where I give the whole history of the earth from paleontology geology

24:13

Archaeology published about four articles on numerous subjects including politics science meteorites dinosaurs

24:29

Okay, so the statement is I believe my life has worth and value here come everybody to sit down except for one atheist again

24:37

Isn't that fascinating? Yes, I would want people to think that they have worth and value but I mean we are all ants on a big ball

24:52

We are all very important Okay, look at that face Look at that fit.

24:58

So Jeremy interjects Interrupts and look at her reaction if this happens over and over and over again

25:06

This guy has already lost all credibility with this woman and she's not even trying to hide it and here's the thing

25:12

I bet if you ask Jeremy how he's doing, he would probably say I'm doing a great job

25:18

You know, but I'm sorry. I don't you know, but you know, I mean like but with this woman he

25:23

I think he's wasting a lot of his words Well, and also this woman is the least adversarial of the atheist

25:30

Right, so which I feel like is significant and like she's someone I would love to sit down and have a conversation with you know like, you know,

25:38

I feel like she like is very Conversational and kind of give -and -take during the whole discussion true true.

25:47

What were you gonna say Jean? Just gonna say he's he's lost his audience already With in the span of two questions, you know, he's he's lost any ability to communicate with the non -believers and give a persuasion

25:58

To his side with with the way he's answering and and you know, we talked about certainty a little bit ago

26:04

We want believers to have a sense of certainty, right? We want them to be confident

26:10

This is part of why we do apologetics to give you good reasons to believe right? but that confidence cannot come off as a arrogance or a

26:22

Dismissiveness to other viewpoints or other other opinions In the way that Jeremy kind of is coming off here.

26:29

And you know if he's if he were a younger Christian You know if I were discipling him or something

26:36

I'd say you need to take a year or two or five and just listen to people and not speak up Learn what other people are saying and just think through them in your own head and not don't don't jump in with your

26:49

With your two cents you have your two cents, that's great. Hold on to it for a little while Let's massage that two cents for a couple years and then be able to present it in a more

27:01

Less objectionable fashion, right? so you can help other people maybe come to the degree of certainty or the degree of Faith that you're at.

27:12

Well, and this is why this ministry exists. Okay, we assume Considering where we're at where I can't even talk considering where we're at right now in 2020 we assume that our

27:27

Subscribers are the readers that come to our blog the people that are watching the live stream right now All have a general level some degree level of knowledge when it comes to theology and apologetics.

27:38

Okay, we're not we don't assume that Somebody coming to our website the typical person is just knows nothing

27:47

So what we're trying to do is is get folks to be better more effective communicators

27:53

We know, you know the right answer because you are tremendously smart and beautiful people But it just you have worth and value you have worth and value

28:02

But it takes it takes control to do what Gina's suggesting which is keep What you know to yourself and just let people talk at least initially let's let's finish this off the

28:13

Design and those things if a man were to design it It would cost several million dollars to make a human if that were possible and yet he's

28:22

God has created billions of us Here comes the eighth,

28:27

I believe in people I believe we make our own choices. I don't believe that there is a overriding being

28:34

Controlling those choices or controlling our situation you are important. I'm So I do not think that inherently just existing gives you worth and value

28:46

I watch this Okay, watch what she does. She contradicts herself in the span of it. Just a couple seconds make choices personal choices every single day on how you live your life and how you treat people and how you

29:00

Exist in the world and those Well, hold on. You just made a definition about what value is, but you still don't believe you're valuable based on your explanation

29:09

I said, I'm not inherently valuable. My to my being born does not just based on your contribution to the world determines your value

29:18

Don't know please don't There are many people who just exist because of instinct or because do their lives have value

29:28

I don't know if they find value in it Sure, if they don't maybe not who am I to judge whether somebody's life is inherently valuable?

29:36

Okay, so she just she took that was a really ironic buzzer right there

29:42

But she she said something and then she took it right back, you know a moment ago she said

29:48

I don't believe it any like Inherently existing gives you worth or something like that.

29:53

And then she turns around and says well There are many people who just exist. Do they have value if they find value in it?

29:59

Sure. It's just gobbledygook But here's the thing. Did you see again this time when what's -his -name

30:06

Peter? Started to interrupt. She clearly got triggered

30:12

And so this particular lady, what's her name Nancy? I Think I think she's clearly triggered by the two gentlemen

30:21

And I think we're gonna find out why as the video goes on but what's your take here guys so When we find out what what it is, it's triggering for her

30:36

Later on in the video. I don't want to spoil it because you know, like complete package and all but I think there is a

30:42

Very specific reason. I think there's a specific person She's thinking of when they're talking about that Everybody has worth right?

30:50

I think we tend to so we tend to think about that in turn especially Christians in terms of I have do

30:59

I have Inherent worth and we think about it in terms I think a lot of times that people who think my sin is so awful

31:05

How could God ever let me into heaven for that sort of thing? But we don't always think about people who have been through terrible experiences

31:13

Does the person who inflicted those terrible experiences on me is that person inherently valuable

31:21

That's a more difficult question to wrestle with and I think that's where she's Ultimately coming from and I think that that is why it's really important to get to know and understand where people are coming from Right.

31:34

Well, and I think a part of this is just her trying to find her own words You know, this is this happens to the best of us where you know

31:40

We start to speak but we're not entirely sure where we're going with it and and we're trying to find it as the words come out

31:47

The problem is I think if you would ask Peter the guy that interrupted her He's probably trying to clarify what she's talking about because she's not articulating herself very well

31:57

But in her mind, she's probably thinking that he's trying to manipulate her words and use them against her and that's why it's so vitally important that we let people talk and And you know and not get excited

32:13

Go ahead notice to that when so she reacts very defensively when he asked the clarifying question and he doesn't respond in kind Right.

32:23

He just says hey look I'm just trying to you know understand what you're saying and she stopped

32:29

With the defensive she kind of went back to the same tone that she had before that and that just shows how

32:37

Being careful not to escalate tension in a situation like that is really helpful. Right?

32:43

Right. What were you gonna say Jean? I I was just gonna kind of comment on this topic and generally aside from from from her stuff this is being able to say whether you have worth or not if someone is to a point in their life or in their

33:01

Outlook on humanity where they don't feel like even they have any worth at all then

33:07

More times than not you're dealing with an emotional objection, right? and we've talked before about how emotional the walls of emotional objections can be

33:16

Higher and thicker than any intellectual walls you may ever come across and so in those instances

33:22

You may not even be the right person to ever put a put a crack in those walls And you kind of just have to be okay with that.

33:29

Well, you can ask questions and stuff but And we'll see maybe a little later on with her

33:35

They're just gonna be some people that she is not gonna be very welcoming to well and just reading the room, right?

33:42

She was not as bothered by The the young lady when the young lady essentially did the same thing that Peter did

33:51

As she was when Peter did it. So clearly there's an element here of just a male with you know

33:58

Challenging her a bit that gets her going. So yeah, you're right and that all comes back to you You got to know who you're talking to you got to know

34:05

Who is standing in front of you and you got to figure all that stuff out before you start giving your message because you you?

34:11

Could be that's the difference between somebody effective and like a Jeremy. So let's let's continue on I Have had doubts about the existence of a higher power.

34:30

I am a woman of faith and belief I believe in the supernatural and higher power and a being that there's no accident and in the way we were created

34:40

Yeah, I think anytime I have gone through hardship. I've questioned not just what

34:46

I believe. I questioned my life I questioned my profession. I questioned my relationships. So I think you know, if you believe whether it's

34:54

Islam Hindu I think you have to doubt it. You can't just jump in there and be like sign me up.

34:59

I agree with everything Let's do it. That would be for you. But not stop for everybody. That is a believer of any particular religion

35:05

Okay, hold on. Wait for it. Wait for it. People don't question anything But in your view by by standing and saying, you know,

35:11

I don't think there's any higher power You do you ever face any doubt? Well, the definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe it's not a declaration, okay, okay

35:24

I Was waiting for it Literally, I'm really interesting editing.

35:32

There's really interesting editing that follows this clip too, right? Let me finish. Let's let her finish with operation per se that there is no

35:39

God I am an atheist activist I'm on the board of atheists United here in Los Angeles and on the steering committee for Americans United for separation of church and state okay, so I Gosh anyway, you know, what do you guys know many activists who are motivated by a lack of belief?

36:01

You don't act you don't an activist for something which you simply lack of belief in she has very strong beliefs in the negation

36:09

Of the existence of God, right? Exactly. That's exactly it and to squash a person's worldview into These little miniaturized cubbyholes and pretend that they're all disconnected from each other is again, it's entirely misleading and it's untrue

36:25

There's two things to say about this number one beliefs are Interconnected and number two,

36:31

I forgot it But but anyway to lack of belief in God doesn't mean that a skeptic is off the hook in terms of an explanation for you

36:39

The universe they still have to answer the question Where did the universe come from and their answer has to be something other than God because God does not exist, right

36:49

Logan? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead Logan well, I was just gonna say I So when this was immediately followed by the all the atheist activism stuff when

36:59

I was watching this the first time I actually just burst out laughing but There's there's so much to say here.

37:07

I think the Peter is that his name the guy in the plaid shirt He's like he's asking a really good question here and I'm always a little bit torn on whether to press

37:18

Atheists on this point whenever this comes up because this comes up a lot guys like I Especially if you're having like an online discussion this like almost always enters the fray at some point

37:32

And I'm always a little bit unsure on how helpful it is or is not to kind of press on that point but I do think that at minimum there has to be an acknowledgment that Not having a belief in something is not in a completely separate sphere where doubt is not even

37:54

Relevant to the question, you know Like do you ever doubt that your reasons for not lacking this belief are?

38:03

Valid like that that could even be the question But like you kind of have to stumble over yourself to ask it that way

38:09

But I mean, yeah, I think I think early on when this phrase became in vogue Which makes me think of those ladies from the 90s that R &B band.

38:20

I'm dating myself But when that became in fashion I was a lot more of a male.

38:28

What's a male version of a Karen? What you know what I mean? Chad I'd be like no

38:36

Actually, you do have a belief now. I kind of sidestep that and I just get into where I want to go, which is okay however, what is your explanation for you know, the the universe or Morality or whatever because I think that's just you you end up wasting time with with terminologies and these guys are so locked in on Their their differentiation between an atheist and an agnostic and then you have a

39:02

Gnostic atheist and an agnostic atheist and it's like come on, bro those are Those are completely unhelpful, but I just kind of sidestep it.

39:09

What do you do gene? You know, honestly, I haven't dealt with a lot of people in person that Make this claim that atheism is simply a lack of a belief

39:20

Just just what seeing interactions online and debates and things like that You know from the from the outside looking in as a as a believer when

39:29

I hear someone say that it just makes me feel like they are evacuating all accountability from their side because now

39:37

I'm Arguing against something that they lack rather than a central statement or Affirmation that we are both trying to engage with and so they've kind of taken themselves out of that engagement

39:52

And said well, I just lack a belief It's your job to stay right here in the engagement and prove Or give me enough information so that I come to that belief and now

40:01

I'm on this I'm on this stage with you And so it feels like they're just withdrawing from the debate altogether to a position where they can just say you can't attack me

40:10

I'm not saying there's no God. I'm saying I lack a belief in God and right we've talked a number of times

40:16

We've had a couple articles on the side. I know that just break down this word atheism It means a lack of God no

40:23

God, that's the statement, right? That's what the word means You're not saying you like it's not about beliefs.

40:29

It's a it's a negation against the statement of theism, right? Yeah, I you know the the whether this lady realizes it or not the the phrase lack of belief in God is just a way

40:44

For an atheist to try to shift out of the burden of proof to come out from under it But at the end of the day

40:50

They don't get out from under the burden of proving their own beliefs and their belief is that the universe has no

40:55

God in it That it's best explained by something else fill in the blank And as soon as they say that they need arguments and evidence to support that assertion.

41:04

So this is just all unhelpful stuff Let's keep going Here comes

41:11

Jeremy No, I've never had a doubt Because I can see design everywhere and you are not an atheist you're an agnostic

41:20

Oh, it's an agnostic. Don't tell me what I am. I am an atheist an atheist doesn't

41:25

I'm an atheist No atheist doesn't believe in the supernatural period an atheist

41:31

Agnostic does believe in a supernatural You're wrong no

41:42

What do you say? Let's let's put this on on on the loop here for an apologetics 101 statement if you get to the point where you're yelling at the person you're engaging with you've

41:53

Lost you're not gonna you just step away, right? No, this is bad

41:59

Wait, Logan, hold on Do not tell me do you believe we don't need to make anybody right or wrong?

42:08

It's just answer the question. Give us a talk. Give her a stock. Do you believe that? Okay? Whoa Okay, so first of all,

42:18

I Have never heard the distinction that to be an agnostic means that you actually believe in the supernatural

42:26

Right. I don't even know where that comes from now Like it is true that like saying you lack a belief like that technically should be under the dictionary agnostic

42:39

Definition not the atheistic one But on the other hand like how helpful is it to argue about the terms that you're using?

42:46

Right when you say this though You actually mean like so I'm thinking about if I am hearing this from the perspective.

42:53

So here's what I feel like is an example So I've said before on this show that I identify largely as a libertarian

43:01

If a Democrat is trying to tell me that I'm not a libertarian because libertarians believe X Y &

43:06

Z that I don't believe I'm probably not gonna receive that as well as if it's somebody who's

43:13

Within my own camp saying that right? Yeah, so like I it's just so like I don't think he's actually

43:21

Right on the definition side to begin with but it's right like not gonna be received. Well, and it's not helpful, right?

43:27

So like just let's just get past the labels have her describe what she actually believes about origins about The supernatural and then say okay, here's what

43:40

I believe and then discuss that I think it's Rissa I think is her name. That's the right one who said give her space to talk

43:46

I feel like that's an important thing to consider considering that Peter said that's basically how he was converted

43:52

Right. He says at the beginning that like people listen to him. They gave his perspective

43:57

She's basically telling the Jeremy to do the same thing. That was how the guy sitting next to him became

44:03

Christian, right? Well, and you know This is why I said what

44:08

I said a few minutes ago about about being a male Karen, right? Because at the end of the day somebody could be using terms that don't mean what they think it means

44:18

You know, like well when I'm talking about morality, I call it a bacon double cheeseburger It's like well if you get stuck in these definitions of terms and what they mean, you won't get to the real issues

44:28

Why don't you just sidestep all that and get to the real issue gene? Yeah, he's he's Oscar from the office if you guys ever watch that Oscar is a count in character who always steps into someone else's

44:38

Conversation. Well, actually, right? Yeah, right. He's an Oscar So the last thing that they do in this video, we encourage you to watch the whole thing on YouTube.

44:46

It's called atheists and Christians debate truth and belief At the last part of that there the people who have set this up actually ask everybody to go around and acknowledge something

44:58

Positive about one another again. I think that is so tremendously important because Especially when you're talking about religion or politics or anything else where people can disagree

45:08

It's also why our third rule of first aid evangelism is to respect and affirm the person you're talking to is because people crave to be appreciated and to give them what they crave is to bring down the walls of Defenses and actually get somewhere and be a little bit more effective in the way you communicate

45:26

But just in final analysis gentlemen just in the last couple of minutes here, what are some of the big takeaways?

45:32

What did you see overall about this exercise? one of the things that I Really took away from this is how important not just what you say, but when and how you say it is because I'm thinking about like It's it's a little bit tricky to determine exactly what the theological beliefs of the three

45:53

Christians would be But I imagine that like Jeremy and I might find ourselves that it's not inconceivable

45:59

We would find ourselves at the same church or at the same lecture series or something like that based on theological beliefs

46:04

Like if I'm if I'm separating what he is saying He believes from how he is saying it he and I probably believe lots of the same things, right?

46:15

But I also think about how one of the things that really stuck out to me

46:21

Is later on in the video I forget which thing it is he says but somebody says do you really think that's going to be helpful

46:29

And he says something to the effect of I'm just stating facts And I think that I say this a lot on the show

46:36

I think we've all said this to some degree But whenever you are talking to people about contentious things you have to have a game plan

46:42

You have to know what the purpose of the conversation is and the purpose of the conversation if it's just well

46:49

I'm just if if you are saying your purpose is just to tell it like it is It's usually not going to be a good experience and I get that like that is a term we sometimes have be in you know in response to You know people some movements that do not look

47:10

Kindly on the truth in some cases or at least we may perceive it that way But that's not gonna be helpful if that's all your game plan is your game plan should be

47:19

I want the truth to impact this person in this way and when you are them centered instead of just you centered in having your

47:27

Opinion or your soapbox heard then what you say is the way that you say something is going to look a lot different right

47:35

Jean To piggyback off what Logan said there If you have to tell

47:43

Someone that you're just saying how it is Then that means what you're saying isn't persuasive enough for them to come to that conclusion themselves

47:52

Okay, so that watching Jeremy like like Logan said I would almost completely agree All three of us may be very close to him theologically speaking and doctrine and beliefs and everything same with Peter We'll probably all be very close to Peter.

48:04

I don't know about the other the other girl We didn't hear a ton from her but it's the tactic that he uses right the way that he presents himself the abrasiveness

48:17

I think at the end one of the things they commented about Peter is that he was very thoughtful one of the things they commented about the other the other girl is that she was

48:25

Welcoming or something like that that she right. She she was disarming with her speech, right?

48:30

She did not come across as wanting to pound somebody but Jeremy did and Again, if you have to continue to say

48:40

I'm just stating facts. I'm just telling the truth. I'm just preaching truth here You don't have to say that right you don't have to put the cart before the horse

48:49

Let the horse get out there and and lead the arguments a little bit and persuade them to come to that conclusion that what you're saying

48:55

Is the truth or at least get them more curious about it, right? Well innate one of the things that this reminds me of is in one of your monologues within the past couple of episodes

49:06

You were talking about how do you determine if someone is willing to listen?

49:11

And listening for certain phrases like, you know, I could be wrong about this or you know

49:18

Well, this is what I think but I'm open to changing my mind and I think that it's

49:23

One of the things that we have to be careful of is with saying this isn't an opinion.

49:28

It's a fact We I think we need to not that we have to sound wishy -washy about our beliefs

49:37

But I think that they're you know Humility is one of the fruits of the Spirit right or not

49:43

One of the Beatitudes is what I was thinking of and so I think that having we need to take

49:50

Special care that that part of our faith and of the Christian walk is coming through as well

49:56

Mmm, no, that's absolutely right. And I think I said in the beginning that I cringe

50:03

I cringe at Peters Tactics and the things that Peter who's the guy

50:08

Jeremy I cringe at Jeremy's tactics and the things that in the way that he says what he says because partly because I think

50:17

I think there are a number of Jeremy's in churches around the country and They're not they're not exactly engaging non -believers because I don't think a non -believer would touch a

50:30

Jeremy with a 50 -foot pole But they are engaging the next generation of people coming up in a church that may have questions and As soon as they meet a

50:40

Jeremy they're immediately shut down and that is a huge mistake This reliance on authoritarianism, you know, well, it's just a fact, you know, whatever.

50:48

It's just not gonna be helpful I think the big takeaways for me. I was kind of split I think part of I think the video itself and the exercise of it

50:56

I think was really helpful just just to show people disagree with each other and get heated But then still come back to the chairs to talk

51:04

I think that visual alone is tremendously important, but I also think it's kind of unhelpful because they cut them off They cut people off they edited them.

51:12

I think Logan you mentioned that And so what that means is they cut their discussions down and I think they did a disservice to more thoughtful engagement

51:22

I bet you these people talked for a longer amount of time and unpacked their views in a much more

51:28

Robust sense and all of that was reduced down and the problem I think and now I'm thinking of just like a

51:34

YouTube audience is That I think it reinforces the stereotypes that a lot of us have in our minds of people

51:40

We tend to think to think the people who we disagree with are they're dumb.

51:46

They're lazy You know fill in the blank negative thoughts that you can come up with because they're disagreeing with us

51:51

You know when perhaps at the end of the day people who disagree may have a lot more well thought -out You know arguments and positions than we think they do