Radio Debate: Is Mormonism Christian?

The Topic of Whether Mormonism Is Christian

We're going to be addressing the topic today of mormonism christianity. Uh... is there a little more than a few months and all sorts of notes being handed to me already as we get on with uh... taking some questions a little bit later on the program right now but i'd like to do is uh... just open.

Uh...

Well for opening statements for either one. If you'd like to uh... share anything as we begin uh... mister hale from uh... sunstone want to let us know why you're in the valley and what we can. What would you would like to discuss today.

Well i'm uh... i'm here from uh... uh... solid city uh... on a little trip that's been spot been sponsored by the sunstone foundation uh... that's a uh... an independent uh... organization in salt lake that publishes uh... an independent publication on mormon topics and also sponsors a theological symposium in salt lake and in washington each year.

And uh... we're down here meeting with some of the uh... sunstone subscribers and also holding a a public meeting that uh... public's invited to. And uh... and doing a few radio programs. The uh... in salt lake city a friend of mine and i have been doing a uh... a radio program up there entitled mormon miscellaneous for the last six years in which we take phone calls so it's just a call-in program discussing the subject of mormonism.

And uh... as you may well know there is a lot of difference of opinion a lot of strong opinions about mormonism both one way or the other. And uh... we have primarily just uh... fielded questions and engaged in discussion of topics that uh...

People.

Have some strong feelings about in regards to mormonism.

Thank you mister hale. Now jim white you're with alpha and omega ministries won't you share a little bit about that work. And then uh... we'll get on to some questions today.

Well mega ministries is a non-profit christian corporation. We work in uh... training christians in dealing with christian apologetics and i would include dealing with uh... what we perceive as attacks upon the christian faith with other organizations claim be christian but we feel denied a central doctrines of christian faith.

In uh... we sponsor twenty four record phone messages for mormons and joe was witnesses here in the valley uh... I've been up uh... into the salt lake area during general conferences on missions trips up there uh...

I'm hoping the salt lake is still uh... dry when i get up there in october. This great salt lake is not uh... completely inundated the entire curriculum to get up there uh... But uh... we work in this in this area of uh... sharing christianity biblical christianity with those that we feel have a have a different viewpoint.

And uh... i'm here today because subject is mormonism and uh... uh... we want to discuss uh... the differences between mormonism and and christianity.

Is Mormonism Christian?

Now uh... That's a question in and of itself. Is mormonism christian.

Well in the and jim of course is uh... interested in drawing a distinction between mormonism and christianity and i think that's uh... legitimate point for him on his side uh... insofar as you're talking about this particular brand of christianity but uh... the latter-day saints uh... of course the name of the church is the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints.

And the central a central belief of ours is that uh... jesus christ organized the church in chile that uh... uh... that they significant degree of a of falling away took place in the early years of the christianity and that jesus christ himself restored it again in uh... eighteen thirty in the years following that.

So yes uh... well jim would would draw a distinction between uh... his brand of christianity and mormonism. And there are certainly our differences. The fact is that mormons do believe in do claim that uh... uh... mormonism is christian and that uh... it is the uh... church established by jesus christ in chile and then restored again in our time.

So i would definitely obviously say that uh... mormonism is christian his center jesus christ is the center of our religion. He's uh... the founder and so forth so definitely is christian.

To jim from your point of view welcome my point of view i'd like to point out that mormonism itself claims to be the only true church on earth today that all of the christian churches uh... their creeds are abomination to god their professors are all corrupt uh...

Bruce armaconti one of the mormon apostles in his book mormon doctrine page six seventy said. There is no salvation outside the church of jesus christ. Latter-day saints i would say that uh... what a christian is is defined by the word of god itself the christians a person who accepts jesus christ their personal lord and savior.

And so one must examine what any group teaches concerning who jesus is and what he did. And i think uh... and then would certainly agree with this uh... in limited time that we have together uh... on the program today would probably best to uh... at least in our discussions of course what phone calls it will bring up questions but try to limit our discussion to that topic of of who jesus is and what he did and compare that with what the the mormon teaching of that is.

Now there's one thing that needs to be pointed out uh... many of the listeners to them life radio or are people who uh... are used to uh... christian teaching concerning the fact that you draw your source your authority your teaching from the word of god the bible uh... in mormonism you not only have additions to the bible such as the book of mormon the doctrine covenants and pearl a great price.

But you have many statements made by mormon leaders which would uh... seemed indicate the bible is is indeed a secondary source. For example joseph smith said in his uh... in a book compiled called teachings the prophet joseph smith page three hundred and ten that there are many things in the bible that stands now that do not accord with the revelations have been given to him by the holy ghost.

And so he admitted that his revelations did not occur with everything found in scripture. Of course he would uh... blame down the scriptures being changed. But christians automatically i think uh... would notice that and saying wait a minute uh... uh... if if the holy spirit inspired scripture uh... and the holy spirit inspired him then what is why is there not a a complete accord between them.

And one must decide whether one is going to accept the holy spirit inspired joseph smith or the spirit inspired scriptures one of the two. And so we must always define what our basis of authority is whether it's the word of god or we are taking something that is above the word of god adding to the word of god even changing the message of the word of god uh... teachings another person.

And that's a very important line to draw when discussing anything uh... or anyone.

The Canon of Scripture and the Bible's Authority

Yet well and well i would.

Uh... saying in response to that that uh... Mormonism does look at the bible as being one of its four basic standard.

Works.

Uh... as jim brings up the subject of the bible the fact is that there is a uh... a real question a legitimate the historical question that has been widely discussed and greatly written upon by uh... historians and biblical scholars as to what exactly the bible is.

And uh... uh... for those who were who are making the claim that the part of the protestant bible bible which of course differs substantially from the catholic bible for those who are saying that the uh... that the protestant bible is the bible those sixty six books is the bible and anything outside of that is uh... uh... it is not valuable in any way for establishment of doctrine that sort of thing as a very difficult historical situation face.

Namely that the the bible at least the protestant bible as we now have it never appeared in that form with those those precise sixty six books until the seventeenth century. So for the for uh... the first seventeen centuries the uh... bible of uh... of christians was different than the bible that uh... jim is saying is you know is the the uh... perfect source the only source.

Of course i would say that is false. The old testament can of thirty nine books was uh... established at least by the jewish people the council jen and eighty ninety uh... the new testament can as we understand it uh... the earliest evidence so we have of the listing the books to be the meritorian fragment from one eighty.

The early church fathers show uh... recognition and acknowledgement or at least familiarity with uh... all the twenty seven books in the new testament. Very early on uh... you have a number of other books such as uh... the rights of clement jeopardy permits the dosh and others uh... that were considered to be interesting for reading but we're not given to public reading uh... the public reading being a very important uh... point there that has been ignored by many people.

And so the idea that did not exist until the seventeenth century not form up uh... is is a misunderstanding the fact that for example the greek old testament known as the septuagint uh... contain the apocrypha but the jewish people never accepted them as being canonical and i did you describe to me the uh... of the christian church and so there are many uh... claims made especially by liberal scholars who would say that the by wasn't written by who it says is written by anyways uh... concerning these things.

But when you actually examine the evidence concerning the uh... the early church fathers and andy can station new testament you find it that most of those are simply people's opinions and they don't have any uh... basis or evidence.

In fact the bible itself makes very specific claims about.

It.

Jesus also his word would never pass away. Uh... He said that in the scriptures were inspired but the old testament can wasn't the the the proper can never argued can this city of any old testament books with anyone.

And uh... again at this point i'd just like to point out that christians find themselves in a very interesting situation here. And uh... I noticed then was looking at our our latest newsletter on the subject that there is there's two two viewpoints.

There is that which accepts the bible the word of god and basis authority on that. Then the other viewpoint is that for some reason the bible must be deprecated its authority must be questioned in some way called a good book called the book that contains word of god that's fine but don't call the word of god eight.

Yes. Do this. Uh... jehovah's witnesses would attack the ability of scripture on the basis of of mistranslate in their new world translation. Uh... and many more people that i have uh... correspond with and talk with uh... have basically discounted the authority of the word of god because we don't know what it originally said.

We can read those languages has been changed all these times and and and all the rest of stuff. Whereas when a person examines the subject of textual criticism one finds out that that those uh... objections are are rather silly.

Actually.

I would uh... you know you you make this uh... several statements right here that uh... just simply fly in the face of the historical fact. Let me just let me get specific with you a little bit uh... i would like to ask you and i you know i'm it's probably not fair to do this to put you on the spotlight this but i would like to ask you uh... this may be rhetorically at this point to name some bible uh... in existence some manuscript or something in existence which is uh... the sixty six books that uh... that you're accepting uh... as the as the complete uh... final word of god.

I'm wondering where you would find that prior to the seventeenth century. Well let me just give uh... an example or two here to expand upon what i'm saying. For example the three great manuscripts that translators are using the alexandrian the vatican and uh... sinai manuscript which are considered to be the three greatest and best manuscripts of the bible.

All three of those uh... contain a number of books that are not contained uh... in in the bible but these are christian. These are christian manuscripts of the.

This was the bible of the fourth and fifth century. Your misunderstanding uh... a great deal concerning the background of the subject of textual criticism. Let me set you straight.

Uh...

Back then the creation of a book was an extremely expensive uh... matter. For example sinaiticus i believe is the one that took the hides one hundred and sixty donkeys to make and not everyone had a hundred and sixty donkeys out back.

They could knock off and turn into papyri manuscripts uh... excuse me vellum manuscripts and so bound together as one book would be not only the scriptures but other devotional works such as baruch didach shepherd of hermes the writings of clement so on and so forth as well as the apocryphal books such as was found in the sinaiticus manuscript when tischendorf found it back in the eighteen hundreds.

And so just simply because a book was included a manuscript did not mean that it was canon. In fact if you would look at the uh... the comments of the early church fathers they mention these other books.

They mentioned that they are used for instruction uh... for uh... edification but they are not used for the public reading of scripture. And so they were bound together. Because not everybody had a whole shelf full of books at that time that does not mean that they were canon.

You must go to the statements of the fathers themselves to determine whether they are canon or not.

The Virgin Birth and the Nature of Christ's Conception

Okay our time is seventeen minutes after the hour of noon right now. Let's take our first call at two five eight six seven one seven. First caller on the line is uh... we've got uh... we got here mike mike from central phoenix.

And you have a question on the eighth chapter of proverbs. What have we got.

Actually i've sitting here with me the gentleman and uh... had a change of heart and uh... that question go right ahead. Question that i think it would like to start off with would be that the lbs church claim to uh... if yet was mary a virgin at the time of conception or at the birth.

Uh... yes the uh... into references in the book mormon as well as of course the reference in matthew and luke. Therefore statements within our standard work uh... that we accept is canon statements of mary being a virgin and uh... that uh... doctrine has never been uh... overturned or anything of that sort within the within the lbs faith.

Even brigham young himself bus when he speaks of mary speaks of her as the virgin mary. So i would say yes uh... Back on the concept of the virgin birth is concept that uh... is accepted in the lbs faith.

Okay.

And based upon that fact i'd like to kind of haven't waited go along or address situation. Would you explain what the mormon church teaching. Uh... Concerning how.

But yes i i think what the caller is referring to is the fact that uh... in mormon is a man. And of course uh... the term virgin birth is used in the book of mormon. But we also know the book mormon does not address many of the subjects that eventually evolved uh... in joseph smith's teachings jesus is called the only begotten son of the father in the flesh.

Especially in the more missionary lessons. You'll find this coming out very often. I'm reading here from a book called documents salvation by joseph billing smith who was proper the mormon church. But he's about two years.

Wasn't he. Probably two years. Seventy two to seventy four. As i recall uh... under the topic uh... christ not be gotten of the holy ghost. And it says i believe from the jesus christ is only gotten some of god in the flesh.

He taught his doctrine to his disciples uh... i'd go down a little process. Christ was begotten of god. He was not born without the aid of man. And that man was god. Joseph smith excuse me bring in young made a very very clear numerous times that jesus was not the son of the holy ghost uh... but that god.

Well i'll just read one of his his uh... sermons here. This is from volume four page two eighteen. As i recall the journal discourses when the time came that his first born the savior should come into the world take a tabernacle.

The father came himself and favor that spirit with a tabernacle. Instead of letting any other man do it. The savior was be gotten by the father of his spirit by the same being who was the father of our spirits.

That is all the organic difference between jesus christ in you and me uh... there are numerous other other testimonies to this fact. That's jude that jesus christ with the literally begotten son of god in the flesh here on earth.

And hence the virgin birth itself since the rat. In the miracle the virgin birth was that mary was a virgin time. The birth uh... is indeed uh... done away with uh... by the mormon teaching concerning uh... the conception of jesus christ.

I think this is a a very good example of but had someone attempting to uh... to expand upon and distort what uh... mormon teaching is. The fact is yes uh... uh... bergen young did not believe that jesus was the son of the holy ghost.

I don't think that the uh... that john the author of the gospel john believe that jesus was a son of the holy ghost. Clearly in the uh... fourteen uh... chapter of the gospel john uh... john presents jesus is being not the son of the holy ghost of the son of the father.

And that's uh... what we're we're. Does the term the father come from in the first place. That we're not talking in terms having a father and son relationship. The uh... the holy ghost is not indicated in the scriptures as being the father of of jesus christ.

Jesus is the son of the father. And i.

Have a little again i would uh... i would have to point out to our listeners who may be a little confused uh... they must realize in a mormon ism god the father has a physical body of flesh and bones.

Doctrine come in section one thirty verse twenty two this is a father has a body of flesh and bones. Is tangible as any man's. And hence since that is so mormons believe that god be gets uh... in the same way that we'd be get uh...

Brigham young point is out very clearly a number of his sermons. And hence to say that jesus uh... is the son of the father. Mormon is in this to take the word son in its literal human sense rather than the sense given to it by the bible in reference to the sonship of jesus christ as one.

Point out that in numerous mormon publications for example i'm reading here from mormon doctrine page eight uh... five forty six under only begotten son it says uh... uh... the only got in the father.

These name titles all signify that our lord is the only son of the father. In the flesh each of the words is to be understood literally only means only begotten means begotten and son means son. Christ was begotten by an immortal father.

In the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. And in a uh... pamphlet distributed by a church called with mormons think of christ. Under son of god it comes out again uh... the idea is uh... who is jesus.

Is he not. Is he the literal son of god or is he not literal son of god. Of course they said he is the literal son of god. And you must interpret that within the mormon viewpoint that god has a body of flesh and bones.

Intense. We're talking about the same way that i have a new son he's just a few months old i am his literal father. I'd be gap uh... in a physical way. And this of course is is uh... is a mormon dogma.

It's very different than the the teaching of the bible. Luke one thirty five that jesus was conceived by the holy spirit that god does not have a body of flesh and bones. Uh... he fills all of heaven and earth.

And uh... this is a miraculous event that took place. And it's uh... cannot be interpreted in the end. More quickly the mormon church.

Does mike you have any other question.

Justin sum it up i think that they'll bend you would have to get based upon what we've talked about our work and talked about then. Mary would not be a virgin at the birth of christ but only at the time.

No i would not say that uh... jim is imposing his kind of interpretation. I don't see any reason to accept uh... jim is any kind of an interpreter for mormon doctrine. The fact is he is not demonstrated is not presented a single reference in which it says uh... mary was not a virgin.

The idea of the uh... very well.

But based on the fact that god the father of the man in jesus begotten and way that children are begotten you're gonna make kind of difficult situation that mary was not a virgin after the godfather showed up to procreate.

Well that's uh... we we have not defined in mormonism how the uh... conception of jesus took place. Just as i don't know anyone else who is a non-mormon christian uh... who is defined how. You know what actually took place in in conception was a artificial insemination or you know what was it.

Nobody's trying to define this and this is not been defined in mormonism and jim has no authority whatsoever to try and to find this in mormonism. The fact is he is not presented any statement from uh... mormon writings that is saying jesus there that mary was not a virgin.

That's he hasn't he hasn't demonstrated that at all. He's pretty presented some uh... what i would say ur his own interpretations and that's it.

Uh... let me point out this very quickly bruce before we uh... leave the caller that uh...

Uh...

I feel that it's up to the listener to decide themselves. We're throwing a lot of references around here. I'm sure that they will be mentioning later that he's gonna be having a meeting this evening where he could provide more those references.

We'll be having a meeting next week on mormonism would provide more those references and i would simply say to leave it up to the reader to do the research for themselves providing the information. I think anyone is listening uh... and has listened to the uh... passages of red very clearly sees what's talking about.

And i would have to mention also that i have spoken to a number of more in people that would they would consider mister hale not represent and orthodox mormon viewpoint either uh... he's saying i have no authority to interpret mormonism but the same time i know a number of people who feel that his interpretation of mormonism is definitely not orthodox either.

And so i would say that you need to go back to the actual writings of mormonism to the apostles and and profits of mormonism and take their word for rather than either mine or mister hale.

Okay we'll find out more about those uh... two meetings one coming up tonight one coming up later one for the sunstone uh... foundation and one for alpha and omega. We have a a speaker from both on our midday program today and before we go.

Mike thanks for the call. We appreciate your question. We look forward to having you with us in the future. On the midday it is twenty six minutes afternoon and we're talking with jim white with alpha and omega and we're talking from with uh... van hale who has been brought to the valley through sunstone.

And we're talking about mormonism. We're talking about christianity today. Let's zero in on a couple of uh... a couple of points. Who is jesus christ and what is salvation. Uh... who wants to jump in on that one first.

Who Is Jesus Christ and What Is Salvation?

Well in uh... in lds belief uh... jesus christ is the son of god. He was uh... pre-existent uh... divine being dvd uh... he came to the earth for the purpose of bringing about the salvation of mankind.

He came uh... went through mortal ministry thought the gospel established a church and uh... suffered uh... death on the cross uh... for the sins of mankind and uh... was resurrected uh... as the first fruits of them slept.

And uh... that in in mormon thought uh... briefly is uh... is jesus christ.

Uh... respond to that by saying that is indeed what mormonism teaches. But that's not everything the mormonism teaches. A person who is not familiar with mormon dogma and doctrine uh... would hear what was just said and would interpret that in the light of their own christian experience.

And that's one main things i'd like to discuss today and point out today is that when a mormon uses some of this terminology it has a very different background in christians. I have an understanding of it uh...

For example to say that jesus was a divine being before he came to earth. Well of course christians believe the exact same thing. We believe jesus is eternal is always been god will always be god uh... that he is the almighty god of of creation as described in the bible.

One must realize that in mormonism uh... god the father was once a man who lived on another planet. Joseph smith himself said is a first principle the gospel to understand and to know that god was once a man we may talk with him as one man talks with another.

And hence the idea that jesus is a begotten son of god. There was a time when he was not god. There was a time when god was not god uh... when he was a man and such a very very different background upon which to to interpret those words uh... jesus is a spirit brother lucifer in mormonism.

Jesus blood does not cleanse from all sin in mormonism there are certain grievous sins you can commit which is blood does not cleanse. For uh... and the work which he done did. Salvation uh... The very word salvation is extremely different.

Mormonism is in christianity two kinds of salvation. Mormonism there's a general salvation which equals basically resurrection immortality. And that is what is given by the free grace of god is that you need to earn that.

However.

Uh...

Let me just read this from a pamphlet for a published by mormon church called your pre-earth life. It says. By revelation our savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through jesus christ.

But the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not enough just to believe in jesus christ. You must work and learn search and pray repented improve know his laws and live them.

And so there is an added emphasis in mormonism added word called exaltation the exaltation to godhood. Uh... that is not a free gift of god it is uh... basically earned purchased through the works that one does obedience to gospel ordinances and principles.

And so christians need to make sure in a discussion of the subject they ask for definitions because if you use the same terminology but mean something differently you can talk for hours and never really communicate because you're basically speaking different languages.

And that's a very important point to bring up in this matter.

Uh... i don't uh... i don't quite understand why uh... why jim would think that uh... he is in such a position as to uh... expect people to believe that. The you know here i'm a mormon have been a mormon my whole life.

It's been a subject that's been very important to me. And i've spent a great deal of time studying it and eyes. I start talking about what mormonism is and he's he's saying no that's not what mormonism is.

Let me tell you what mormonism is but the fact is that in uh... in elias faith uh... to comment on a couple things that he's brought up uh... mormons to in fact believe that uh... salvation involves more than simply an expression of belief or for faith.

But that's the biblical position bible is uh... it's clear on that time and time again the idea of self of being saved without obedience is uh... to god's laws is something which is born to the bible.

And i think you know we could we could spend a great deal of time uh... discussing that looking at passages and so forth uh... that is a mormon position. And i think it's a very solid biblical position as insofar as the idea of earning salvation is concerned uh... that simply is not an elias belief.

Salvation is something that no person can earn uh... in any way the only way that a person can be saved is without jesus christ. Without his atoning sacrifice there wouldn't be no salvation for anyone no possibility of earning that.

Just a quick question there van is uh... is it within the mormon church kind of a unitarian point of view that uh... everyone is resurrected everyone attained salvation everyone uh... in the whole world.

In uh... in the lds belief uh... basing uh... uh... or at least in support of this idea and uh... first corinthians. Fifteen the idea that all will be resurrected.

We have a lot of everyone every member of our record will be safe.

Well uh... maybe this is a terminology problem that jim's talking about that we we think in terms of you could say that i guess save from death that uh... But everyone will be resurrected if you want to think of that in terms of salvation.

We don't usually think of that most terms. But everyone will be resurrected. Everyone will be.

Resume into what.

Redeem from the fall of adam but uh... insofar as what had what takes place after that.

Uh...

The than that depends on on a couple of things uh... all who are resurrected are not necessarily going to go to god's kingdom but all will be resurrected and lds believe and i think that idea can be certainly uh... substantiated from biblical passages.

But let me point something out here. Van was just saying that he doesn't know why i feel in a position to say these things side the fact that uh... i've spoken with hundreds of lds all across this place.

Of course he's spoken more than i have. Uh... i have found that so many people would would strongly disagree with some of the points he expresses. What he just said about salvation again reiterates what i what i was saying before.

You must define what salvation talking about. Now i have right here in front of me you can see them there bruce to book. Once called mormon doctrine of russia mcconkie. Russia mcconkie was an apostle the mormon church.

Now there's called documents made by somebody. That's uh... let me let me finish this and let me talk a all right. It says. Salvation is twofold. This is from doc and salvation by joseph ewing smith. Salvation is twofold.

This is one of the authorities to accept his word.

We we have the standard works of the church which represent our standard doctrine and that's the only thing that mormonism acknowledges as the standard of our faith is don't accept the team's own non-violent.

Now you're now you're trying to fit. You try to put some words in my mouth but uh... bruce r mcconkie and joseph ewing smith the two of the year you want to quote from here themselves. In fact if you want to open your book there mormon doctrine to the article on profits you will see that.

What uh... mcconkie is saying and he's quoting joseph ewing smith on this is that the uh... four standard works are. They are the canon of the church and everything is to be tested by that canon anything that said uh... by anybody no matter who it is.

If it does not accord with the uh... scriptures uh... we're duty-bound not to accept it. So i'm not saying i don't accept what uh... joseph ewing smith says. What i'm saying is that uh... if you're attempting to present him as the official uh... authority of the church uh... you're an error on that point.

You misunderstand the mormon trying to point.

Out back. That uh... Joseph ewing smith. As an as an apostle the church said salvation is twofold general that which comes to all men irrespective of the belief in this life in christ and individual that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to laws and ordinances the gospel.

And i've heard read earlier to you from a pamphlet that is distributed by more missionaries all across the land called your pre-earth life which said the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn.

Now do you agree or disagree with that position as expressed by the mormon church.

You're saying that's expressed by the mormon church when in fact i just ended indicated to you that uh... what what you're doing is you're quoting. You're not quoting from our standard works reporting from something else.

Let me read to you a little statement and i think this is a very good statement. I think it's a very fine statement. And you're thanking me because you obviously recognize that it's your own statement.

But i think it condemns precisely the sort of thing that you're doing with mormonism. Uh... the uh... the heading reads context context context. The most off repeated contradictions revolve about around the use of context quotations.

Anyone by divorcing statements from their immediate and overall context can make any biblical writer look foolish. Indeed. You could make any article in this morning's newspaper look self-contradictory if you ignore the context of the statements.

I could quote various bible verses compare them with others and say see. It doesn't make any sense. Again only a prejudice against the work that lead someone to do. This part of this problem is seen in the all but humorous fact that many atheists who are totally ignorant of of biblical doctrine in teaching set themselves up as doctrinal experts and imagine contradictions between biblical writers on doctrinal issues.

The christian doctrine of the trinity is nonsense because the bible says such. And so most of these self-appointed judges don't know the first thing about the doctrine of the trinity. Nor have they taken the time to find out.

They're simply on a witch hunt with no regard to facts truth or honesty. And that's exactly what i see you doing jim with mormonism. You can take the statement out of the uh... page by uh... joseph feeling smith.

And you read it and suggest to people that that uh... joseph feeling smith does not believe that salvation comes to the atoning sacrifice of jesus christ. But you ignore all the other writings. It is on that once i didn't say that.