Radio Debate: Is Mormonism Christian?

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:00

we're going to be addressing the topic today of mormonism christianity uh...

00:06

is there a little more than a few months and all sorts of notes being handed to me already as we get on with uh...

00:13

taking some questions a little bit later on the program right now but i'd like to do is uh... just open uh...

00:20

well for opening statements for either one if you'd like to uh... share anything as we begin uh... mister hale from uh...

00:26

sunstone want to let us know why you're in the valley and what we can what would you would like to discuss today well i'm uh...

00:33

i'm here from uh... uh... solid city uh... on a little trip that's been spent been sponsored by the sunstone foundation uh...

00:42

that's a uh... an independent uh... organization in salt lake that publishes uh...

00:47

an independent publication on mormon topics and also sponsors a theological symposium in salt lake and in washington each year and uh...

00:56

we're down here meeting with some of the uh... sunstone subscribers and also holding a a public meeting that uh...

01:04

public's invited to and uh... and doing a few radio programs the uh...

01:10

in salt lake city a friend of mine and i've been doing a uh... a radio program up there entitled mormon miscellaneous for the last six years in which we take phone calls so it's just a call in program discussing the subject of mormonism and uh...

01:24

as you may well know there is a lot of difference of opinion a lot of strong opinions about mormonism both one way or the other and uh...

01:32

we have primarily just uh... fielded questions and engaged in discussion of topics that uh...

01:39

people have some strong feelings about in regards to mormonism thank you mister hale now jim white you're with alpha and omega ministries won't you share a little bit about network and then uh...

01:50

we'll get on to some questions today well mega ministries is a non -profit christian corporation we work in uh...

01:57

training christians in dealing with christian apologetics and i would include dealing with uh...

02:03

what we perceive as attacks upon the christian faith with other organizations claim be christian but we feel denied a central doctrines of christian faith in uh...

02:11

we sponsor twenty four record phone messages for mormons and joe was witnesses here in the valley uh...

02:17

i've been up uh... into the salt lake area during general conferences on missions trips up there uh...

02:22

i'm hoping the salt lake is still uh... dry when i get up there in october this great salt lake is not uh...

02:28

completely inundated the entire curriculum to get up there uh... but uh... we work in this in this area of uh...

02:34

sharing christianity biblical christianity with those that we feel have a have a different viewpoint and uh...

02:41

i'm here today because subject is mormonism and uh... uh... we want to discuss uh...

02:46

the differences between mormonism and and christianity now uh... that's a question in and of itself is mormonism christian well in the and jim of course is uh...

02:59

interested in drawing a distinction between mormonism and christianity and i think that's uh... legitimate point for him on his side uh...

03:07

insofar as you're talking about this particular brand of christianity but uh...

03:13

the latter -day saints uh... of course the name of the church is the church of jesus christ of latter -day saints and the central a central belief of ours is that uh...

03:23

jesus christ organized the church in chile that uh... uh... that uh...

03:28

a significant degree of a of falling away took place in the early years of the christianity and that jesus christ himself restored it again in uh...

03:38

eighteen thirty in the years following that so yes uh... while jim would would draw a distinction between uh...

03:45

his brand of christianity and mormonism and there are certainly our differences the fact is that mormons do believe in do claim that uh...

03:53

uh... mormonism is christian and that uh... it is the uh... church established by jesus christ anciently and then restored again in our time so i would definitely obviously say that uh...

04:06

mormonism is christian his center jesus christ is the center of our religion he's uh... the founder and so forth so definitely is christian to jim from your point of view welcome my point of view i'd like to point out that mormonism itself claims to be the only true church on earth today that all of the christian churches uh...

04:25

their creeds are abomination to god the professors are all corrupt uh... bruce armaconti one of the mormon apostles in his book mormon doctrine page six seventy said there is no salvation outside the church of jesus christ latter -day saints i would say that uh...

04:39

what a christian is is defined by the word of god itself christians a person who accepts jesus christ a personal lord and savior and so one must examine what any group teaches concerning who jesus is and what he did and i think uh...

04:53

and then we certainly agree with this uh... in limited time that we have together uh...

04:58

on the program today would probably best to uh... at least in our discussions of course what phone calls it will bring up questions but try to limit our discussion to that topic of of who jesus is and what he did and compare that with what the the mormon teaching of that is now there's one thing that needs to be pointed out uh...

05:15

many of the listeners to them life radio or are people who uh... are used to uh...

05:21

christian teaching concerning the fact that you draw your source your authority your teaching from the word of god the bible uh...

05:29

in mormon ism you not only have additions to the bible such as the book of mormon doctrine coven some progress price but you have many statements made by mormon leaders which would uh...

05:39

seemed indicate the bible is is indeed a secondary source for example joseph smith said in his uh...

05:45

in a book compiled called teachings the prophet joseph smith page three hundred and ten that there are many things in the bible that stands now that do not accord with the revelations have been given to him by the holy ghost and so he even admitted that his revelations did not occur with everything found in scripture of course he would uh...

06:03

blamed on the scriptures being changed but christians automatically i think uh... would notice that and saying wait a minute uh...

06:12

uh... if if the holy spirit inspired scripture uh... and the holy spirit inspired him then what is why is there not a a complete accord between them and one must decide whether one is going to accept the holy spirit inspired joseph smith or the spirit inspired scriptures one of the two and so we must always define what our basis of authority is whether it's the word of god or we are taking something that is above the word of god adding to the word of god even changing the message of the word of god uh...

06:39

teachings of another person and that's a very important line to draw when discussing anything uh...

06:44

or anyone no yes well and well i would uh... saying in response to that that uh...

06:52

mormonism does look at the bible as being one of its four basic standard works uh...

06:58

as jim brings up the subject of the bible the fact is that there is a uh... a real question a legitimate the historical question that has been widely discussed and greatly written upon by uh...

07:10

historians and biblical scholars as to what exactly the bible is and uh...

07:16

uh... for those who were who are making the claim that the part that the protestant bible bible which of course differs substantially from the catholic bible for those who are saying that the uh...

07:27

that the protestant bible is the bible those sixty six books is the bible and anything outside of that is uh...

07:35

uh... it is not valuable in any way for establishment of doctrine that sort of thing as a very difficult historical situation face namely that the the bible at least the protestant bible as we now have it never appeared in that form with those those precise sixty six books until the seventeenth century so for the for uh...

07:58

the first seventeen centuries the uh... bible of uh... of christians was different than the bible that uh...

08:04

jim is saying is you know is the the uh... perfect source the only source of course i would say that that is false the old testament can of thirty nine books was uh...

08:15

established at least by the jewish people the council jen and eighty ninety uh... the new testament can as we understand it uh...

08:22

the earliest evidence so we have of the listing the books to be the muratorian fragment from one eighty the early church fathers show uh...

08:30

recognition and acknowledgement or at least familiarity with uh... all twenty seven books in the new testament very early on uh...

08:37

you have a number of other books such as uh... the writings of clement shepard of hermes the dosh and others uh...

08:45

that were considered to be interesting for reading but were not given to public reading uh... the public reading being a very important uh...

08:52

point there that has been ignored by many people and so the idea that did not exist until the seventeenth century not form up uh...

08:59

is is a misunderstanding the fact that for example the greek old testament known as the septuagint uh...

09:04

contain the apocryphal but the jewish people never accepted them as being canonical and i did you describe to me the uh...

09:10

of the christian church and so there are many uh... claims made especially by liberal scholars who would say that the by wasn't written by who it says is written by anyways uh...

09:19

concerning these things but when you actually examine the evidence concerning the uh... the early church fathers and andy can station new testament you find it that most of those are simply people's opinions and they don't have any uh...

09:30

basis or evidence in fact the bible itself makes very specific claims about it jesus himself his word would never pass away uh...

09:39

he said that in the scriptures were inspired but the old testament can wasn't the the the proper can never argued candidacy of any old testament books of anyone and uh...

09:48

again at this point i'd just like to point out that christians find themselves in a very interesting situation here and uh...

09:55

i know it's been was looking at our our latest newsletter on the subject that there is there's two two viewpoints there is that which accepts the bible the word of god and bases authority on that then the other viewpoint is that for some reason the bible must be deprecated it it's authority must be questioned in some way called a good book called the book that contains word of god that's fine but don't call the word of god atheists do this uh...

10:21

jehovah's witnesses would attack the ability of scripture on the basis of of mistranslate in their new world translation uh...

10:28

and many more people that i have uh... correspond with and talked with uh... have basically discounted the authority of the word of god because we don't know what it originally said we can read those languages has been changed all these times and and and all the rest of stuff whereas when a person examines the subject of textual criticism one finds out that that those uh...

10:47

objections are are rather silly actually i would uh... you know you you make this uh...

10:54

several statements right here that uh... just simply fly in the face of the historical fact let me just let me get specific with you a little bit uh...

11:04

i would like to ask you and i you know i'm it's probably not fair to do this to put you on the spotlight this but i would like to ask you uh...

11:13

this may be rhetorically at this point to name some bible in existence of manuscript or something in existence which is uh...

11:23

the sixty six books that uh... that you're accepting uh... as the as the complete uh...

11:29

final word of god i'm wondering where you would find that prior to the seventeenth century well let me just give uh...

11:36

an example or two here to expand upon what i'm saying for example the three great manuscripts that translators are using the alexandrian the vatican and uh...

11:45

sinai manuscript which are considered to be the three greatest and best manuscripts of the bible all three of those uh...

11:54

contain a number of books that are not contained in in the bible but these are christian these are christian manuscripts this was the bible of the fourth and fifth century you're misunderstanding uh...

12:07

a great deal concerning the background of the subject of textual criticism let me set you straight uh...

12:13

back then the creation of a book was an extremely expensive uh... matter for example sinaiticus i believe is the one that took the hides one hundred and sixty donkeys to make and not everyone had a hundred and sixty donkeys out back they could knock off and turn into papyri manuscripts uh...

12:30

excuse me vellum manuscripts and so bound together as one book would be not only the scriptures but other devotional works such as baruch didach shepherd of hermes the writings of clement so on and so forth as well as the apocryphal books such as was found in the sinaiticus manuscript when tischendorf found it back in the eighteen hundreds and so just simply because a book was included a manuscript did not mean that it was canon in fact if you would look at the uh...

13:00

the comments of the early church fathers they mention these other books they mentioned that they are used for instruction uh...

13:08

for uh... edification but they are not used for the public reading of scripture and so they were bound together because not everybody had a whole shelf full of books at that time that does not mean that they were canon you must go to the statements of the fathers themselves to determine whether they are canon or not okay our time is seventeen minutes after the hour of noon right now let's take our first call at two five eight six seven one seven first caller on the line is uh...

13:36

we've got uh... we got here mike mike from central phoenix and you have a question on the eighth chapter of proverbs what have we got actually i've sitting here with me the gentleman and uh...

13:49

had a change of heart and uh... that question go right ahead question that i think you'd like to start off with with the does the lbs church claim to uh...

13:58

really believe in the virgin birth of christ and if yes was mary a virgin at the time of conception or at the birth of christ that's good uh...

14:09

yes the uh... into references from the book of mormon as well as of course the reference in matthew and luke therefore statements within our standard work uh...

14:20

that we accept is canon statements of mary being a virgin and uh...

14:28

doctrine has never been uh... uh... overturned or anything of that sort within the within the lbs faith even brigham young himself that's when he speaks of mary speaks of her as the virgin mary so i would say yes uh...

14:42

that kind of the concept of the virgin birth is concept that uh... is accepted in the lbs faith and based upon that fact i'd like to kind of evidence for white go along or address would you explain what the mormon church teaches uh...

14:59

concerning how uh... conception correct but yes i i think what the caller is referring to is the fact that uh...

15:09

in mormonism and of course uh... the term virgin birth is used in the book of mormon but we also know the book of mormon does not address many of the subjects that eventually evolved in joseph smith's teachings jesus is called the only begotten son of the father in the flesh especially in the more missionary lessons you'll find this coming out very often i'm reading here from a book called doctrines salvation by joseph billing smith who was proper the mormon church but he's about two years wasn't he but to use seventy two to seventy four as i recall uh...

15:40

on the topic uh... christ not be gotten of the holy ghost and it says i believe firmly jesus christ is only gotten son of god in the flesh he taught this doctrine to his disciples uh...

15:52

i'd go down a little process christ was begotten of god he was not born without the aid of man and that man was god joseph smith excuse me bring in young made a very very clear numerous times that jesus was not the son of the holy ghost uh...

16:07

but that god well i'll just read one of his his uh... sermons here this is from volume four page two eighteen as i recall the journal discourses when the time came that his first born the savior should come into the world take a tabernacle the father came himself and favor that spirit with the tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it the savior was begotten by the father of his spirit by the same being was the father of our spirits that is all the organic difference between jesus christ in you and me uh...

16:32

there are numerous other other testimonies to this fact that's jude that jesus christ was the literally begotten son of god in the flesh here on earth and hence the virgin birth itself since the rat in the miracle the virgin birth was that mary was a virgin time the birth uh...

16:48

is indeed uh... done away with uh... by the mormon teaching concerning uh...

16:54

the conception of jesus christ i think this is a a very good example of but had someone attempting to uh...

17:01

to expand upon and distort what uh... mormon teaching is the fact is yes uh...

17:07

uh... bergen young did not believe that jesus was the son of the holy ghost i don't think that the uh...

17:14

that john the author of the gospel john believe that jesus was a son of the holy ghost clearly in the uh...

17:20

fourteen uh... chapter of the gospel john uh... john presents jesus is being not the son of the holy ghost of the son of the father and that's uh...

17:30

where where does the term the father come from in the first place that we're not talking in terms having a father and son relationship the uh...

17:39

the holy ghost is not indicated in the scriptures as being the father of of jesus christ jesus is the son of the father not son of the holy ghost again i would uh...

17:49

i would have to point out for listeners who may be a little confused uh... they must realize in a mormon ism god the father as a physical body of flesh and bones doctrine come in section one thirty verse twenty two this is a father has a body of flesh and bones is tangible as any man's and hence since that is so mormons believe that god be gets uh...

18:08

in the same way that we be get uh... bergen young point this out very clearly a number of his sermons and hence to say that jesus uh...

18:18

is the son of the father mormon ism is to take the word son in its literal human sense rather than the sense given to it by the bible in reference to the sonship of jesus christ as one point out that in numerous mormon publications for example i'm reading here from mormon doctrine page eight uh...

18:33

five forty six under only begotten son it says uh... uh... the only got the father these name titles all signify that our lord is the only son of the father in the flesh each of the words is to be understood literally only means only begotten means begotten and son means son christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers and in a uh...

18:59

pamphlet distributed by church called with mormons think of christ under son of god it comes out again uh...

19:04

the idea is uh... who is jesus is he not is he the literal son of god or is he not literal son of god of course they said he is the literal son of god and you must interpret that within the mormon viewpoint the god has a body of flesh and bones intense we're talking about the same way that i have a new son he's just a few months old i am his literal father i'd be gap uh...

19:27

in a physical way and this of course is is uh... is a mormon dogma it's very different than the the teaching of the bible luke one thirty five that jesus was conceived by the holy spirit the god does not have a body of flesh and bones uh...

19:42

he fills all of heaven and earth and uh... this is a miraculous event that took place and it's uh...

19:48

cannot be interpreted in the anthropomorphic way the mormon church does mike do you have any other question justin sum it up i think that held that you would have to get based upon what we've talked about what kind of talked about then mary would not be a virgin at the birth of christ but only at the time no i would not say that uh...

20:08

jim is imposing his kind of interpretation i don't see any reason to accept uh...

20:14

jim is any kind of an interpreter for mormon doctrine the fact is he is not demonstrated is not presented a single reference in which it says uh...

20:22

mary was not a virgin the idea of the mary wasn't but based on the fact that the father of the man and jesus begotten in the same way that children are begotten you're going to make kind of difficult situation say that mary was not a virgin after the god the father showed up to procreate well that's uh...

20:41

we we have not defined in mormonism how the uh... conception of jesus took place just as i don't know anyone else who is a non -mormon christian uh...

20:51

who was defined how you know what actually took place in in conception was a artificial insemination or you know what was it nobody's trying to define this and this is not been defined in mormonism and jim has no authority whatsoever to try and define this in mormonism the fact is he is not presented any statement from uh...

21:09

mormon writings that is saying jesus or that mary was not a virgin that's he hasn't he hasn't demonstrated that at all he's pretty presented some uh...

21:19

what i would say ur his own interpretations and that's it uh... let me point out this very quickly bruce before we leave the collar that uh...

21:28

i feel that it's up to the listener to decide themselves we're throwing a lot of references around here i'm sure that they will be mentioning later that he's going to be having a meeting this evening where he could provide more those references we'll be having a meeting next week on mormonism would provide more those references and i would simply say to leave it up to the reader to do the research for themselves providing the information i think anyone is listening uh...

21:51

and has listened to the uh... passages of red very clearly sees what's talking about and i would have to mention also that i have spoken to a number of more people that would they would consider mister hale not to represent and orthodox mormon viewpoint either uh...

22:05

he's saying i have no authority to interpret mormonism but the same time i know a number of people who feel that his interpretation of mormonism is definitely not orthodox either and so i would say that you need to go back to the actual writings of mormonism to the apostles and and prophets of mormonism and take their word for rather than either mine or mister hale okay we'll find out more about those uh...

22:25

two meetings one coming up tonight one coming up later one for the sunstone uh... foundation and one for alpha and omega we have uh...

22:33

a speaker from both on our midday program today and before we go mike thanks for the call we appreciate your question we look forward to having you with us in the future on the midday it is twenty six minutes afternoon and we're talking with jim white with alpha and omega and we're talking from with uh...

22:50

van hale who has been brought to the valley through sunstone and we're talking about mormonism we're talking about christianity today let's zero in on a couple of uh...

23:01

a couple of points who is jesus christ and what he is salvation uh...

23:06

who wants to jump in on that one first well in uh... in lds belief uh...

23:12

jesus christ is the son of god he was uh... pre -existent uh... divine being deity uh...

23:19

he came to the earth for the purpose of bringing about the salvation of mankind he came uh...

23:26

went through mortal ministry thought uh... the gospel established a church and uh...

23:32

suffered uh... death on the cross uh... for the sins of mankind and uh...

23:38

was resurrected as the first fruits of them slot and uh...

23:43

that in in mormon thought uh... briefly is uh... is jesus christ i'll respond to that by saying that is indeed what mormonism teaches but that's not everything the mormonism teaches a person who is not familiar with mormon dogma and doctrine uh...

23:59

would hear what was just said and would interpret that in the light of their own christian experience and that's one of main things i'd like to discuss today and point out today is that when a mormon uses some of this terminology it has a very different background in christians i have an understanding of it uh...

24:15

for example to say that jesus was a divine being before he came to earth of course christians believe the exact same thing we believe jesus is eternal is always been god will always be god uh...

24:25

that he is the almighty god of of creation as described in the bible one must realize that in mormonism uh...

24:32

god the father was once a man who lived on another planet joseph smith himself said is a first principal the gospel to understand and to know that god was once a man we may talk with him as one man talks with another and hence the idea that jesus is a begotten son of god there was a time when he was not god there was a time when god was not god uh...

24:51

when he was a man and such a very very different background upon which it is to interpret those words uh...

24:58

jesus is a spirit brother lucifer in mormonism jesus blood does not cleanse from all sin in mormonism there are certain grievous sins you can commit which his blood does not cleanse for uh...

25:07

and the work which he done did salvation uh... the very word salvation is extremely different mormonism is in christianity there are two kinds of salvation in mormonism there's a general salvation which equals basically resurrection immortality and that is what is given by the free grace of god is that you need to earn that however uh...

25:27

let me just read this from a pamphlet from a published by mormon church called your prayer of life it says by revelation our savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation resurrection comes as a gift to every man through jesus christ but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn it is not enough just to believe in jesus christ you must work and learn search and pray repented improve know his laws and live them and so there is an added emphasis in mormonism added word called exaltation would be exaltation to godhood uh...

26:00

that is not a free gift of god it is uh... basically earned purchased through the works that one does obedience to gospel ordinances and principles and so christians need to make sure in a discussion of the subject they ask for definitions because if you use the same terminology but mean something differently you can talk for hours and never really communicate because you're basically speaking different languages and that's a very important point to bring up in this matter uh...

26:29

i don't uh... i don't quite understand why uh... why jim would think that uh...

26:36

he is in such a position as to uh... expect people to believe that you know here i'm a mormon have been a mormon my whole life it's been a subject that's been very important to me and i've spent a great deal of time studying it and eyes i start talking about what mormonism is and he's he's saying no that's not what mormonism is let me tell you what mormonism is but the fact is that in uh...

26:58

in elias faith uh... to comment on a couple things that he's brought up uh...

27:03

mormons to in fact believe that uh... salvation involves more than simply an expression of belief or for faith but that's the biblical position bible is uh...

27:16

it's clear on that time and time again the idea of self of being saved without obedience is uh...

27:23

to god's laws is something which is foreign to the bible and i think you know we could we could spend a great deal of time uh...

27:29

discussing that looking at passages and so forth uh... that is a mormon position and i think it's a very solid biblical position as insofar as the idea of earning salvation is concerned uh...

27:41

that simply is not an elias belief salvation is something that no person can earn uh...

27:47

in any way the only way that a person can be saved is without jesus christ without his atoning sacrifice there wouldn't be no salvation for anyone no possibility of earning that just a quick question there van is uh...

27:59

is it within the mormon church kind of a unitarian point of view that uh... everyone is resurrected everyone attained salvation everyone uh...

28:07

in the whole world in uh... in lds belief uh... basing uh... uh... or at least in support of this idea and uh...

28:15

first corinthians fifteen the idea that all will be resurrected we have a lot of everyone everywhere born will be safe well uh...

28:25

maybe this is a terminology problem that jim's talking about that we we think in terms of you could say that i guess save from death that uh...

28:35

but everyone will be resurrected if you want to think of that in terms of salvation we don't usually think of that most terms but everyone will be resurrected everyone will be resurrected to what redeemed from the fall of adam but uh...

28:47

insofar as what had what takes place after that uh... the than that depends on on a couple of things uh...

28:57

all who are resurrected are not necessarily going to go to god's kingdom but all will be resurrected and lds believe and i think that idea can be certainly uh...

29:06

since substantiated from biblical passages but let me point something out here van was just saying that he doesn't know why i feel in a position to say these things side the fact that uh...

29:15

i've spoken with hundreds of lds all across this place of course he's spoken more than i have uh...

29:21

i have found that so many people would would strongly disagree with some of the points he expresses what he just said about salvation again reiterates what i what i was saying before you must define what salvation talking about now i have right here in front of me you can see them there bruce to book once called mormon doctrine of russia mcconkey russia mcconkey was an apostle the mormon church now there's called documents made by somebody that's uh...

29:45

let me let me finish it so let me talk a all right it says salvation is twofold this is from documents salvation by joseph billingsmith salvation is twofold this is one of your stories except his word we we have the standard works of the church which represent our standard doctrine and that's the only thing that mormonism acknowledges as the standard of our faith is don't accept the team's own non -alternative now you're trying to have you try to put some words in my mouth but uh...

30:10

bruce r mcconkey and joseph feeling smith the two of the year you want to quote from here themselves in fact if you want to open your book there mormon doctrine to the article on profits you will see that what uh...

30:22

mcconkey is saying and he's quoting joseph feeling smith on this is it the uh... four standard works are they are the canon of the church and everything is to be tested by that can and anything that said uh...

30:33

by anybody no matter who it is if it does not accord with the uh... scriptures uh...

30:38

we're duty -bound not to accept it so i'm not saying i don't accept what uh... joseph feeling smith says what i'm saying is that uh...

30:45

if you're attempting to present him as the official uh... authority of the church uh...

30:51

you're in error on that point i was understand the mormon trying to point out is back that uh... joseph feeling smith as a as an apostle the church said salvation is twofold general that which comes to all men irrespective of the belief in this life in christ and individual that which man merits through his own acts life by obedience to laws and ordinances the gospel and i've heard read earlier to you from a pamphlet that is distributed by more missionaries all across the land called your prayer life which said the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn now do you agree or disagree with that position as expressed by the mormon church well you're you're saying that's expressed by the mormon church when in fact i just ended indicated to you that uh...

31:36

what what you're doing is recording you're not quoting from our standard works recording from something else let me read to you a little statement and i think this is a very good statement i think it's a very fine statement and you're thanking me because you obviously recognize that it's your own statement but i think it condemns precisely the sort of thing that you're doing with mormonism uh...

31:55

the uh... the heading reads context context context the most often heated contradictions revolve about around the use of context quotations anyone by divorcing statements from their immediate and overall context can make any biblical writer look foolish indeed you could make any article in this morning's newspaper look self contradictory if you ignore the context of the statements i could quote various bible verses compare them with others and say see it doesn't make any sense again only a prejudice against the work that lead someone to do this part of this problem is seen in the all but humorous fact that many atheists who are totally ignorant of of biblical doctrine in teaching set themselves up as doctrinal experts and imagine contradictions between biblical writers on doctrinal issues the christian doctrine of the trinity is nonsense because the bible says such and so most of the self -appointed judges don't know the first thing about the doctrine of the trinity nor have they taken the time to find out they're simply on a witch hunt with no regard to facts truth or honesty and that's exactly what i see you doing jim with mormonism you can take the statement out of the uh...

33:02

page by uh... joseph ewing smith and you read it and suggest to people that that uh...

33:08

joseph ewing smith does not believe that salvation comes to the atoning sacrifice of jesus christ but you ignore all the other writings of his own that once i didn't say that and the audience of course and see that uh...

33:19

i have not ignored his writings i've read doctrine salvation mormon doctrine articles of faith the book a mormon doctrine comes for a great price and everything that we give we give the context which is found in anyone who wants to examine the context is more than we are more than glad to allow them to do so if they can examine that we have the books of the office they can look at them again uh...

33:39

to someone who's unfamiliar with this topic who doesn't have these resources i say to you this don't take anything i say don't take anything mister hale says you check it out you look it up you make sure i'm quoting in context you make sure the mister hale is quoting context go talk to the mormon people talk to about these subjects i've talked to many mormon elders right there in the heart of salt lake city it would call you mister hale a heretic for some of the things that you say i'm not saying that simply because they're a bunch of people mormon church disagree with each other the mormonism is therefore necessarily wrong because there are a lot of christians disagree with one another on a number of issues too we're discussing for example a pamphlet that has been printed undoubtedly millions of times by the mormon church given to its official representatives to pass out from door -to -door and you're saying well since that's not in can scripture that doesn't represent mormonism i think you're really begging the issue at that point i really think that if you took this to almost anymore in person said would you agree with this they would say most definitely i would and the position you're placing yourself in is saying the church may distribute millions of copies of this and the church might want to do that that's fine but that has no validity for me you would also find yourself in in pretty sharp disagreement with the current prophet uh...

34:55

who in his fourteen fundamentals of following the prophet a few years ago uh... would have definitely taken issue with the ideas that you've expressed concerning well that doesn't really matter i think it does matter i didn't say that you did you just keep misrepresenting not only mormonism but myself and and you keep you keep well that's that's fine to say that but uh...

35:15

i keep asking you you know for some uh... i ask you for some statement like on the virgin birth some statement from our scriptures that that says we don't believe in the virgin birth let me ask you about joseph uh...

35:27

joseph feeling smith did joseph feeling smith believe that jesus is atonement was the thing that brought about the remission of our sins and and so far i mean you read one little statement from him this does he believe in the atonement of jesus christ that is uh...

35:42

that that is uh... the means by which man's sins are forgiven i would definitely not say in the christian concept because uh...

35:50

since you want me to continue on reading so we get the whole context of the more than glad to finish off what i was reading i continue on page one thirty four volume one but man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light knowledge that will place him beyond the reach the atoning blood of christ if then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone so far as in his power lies for that sent the blood of christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail do you believe this doctrine if not then i say you do not believe in the true document on the christ and he reiterates it across the page page one thirty five where he says joseph smith taught that there were certain grievous sins certain sense of greatest excuse me that man may commit that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of christ if these offenses are committed in the blood of christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone as far as possible in their behalf now just like to point out to someone who has never heard of this before but what i read i read correctly i'm sitting here holding thing right in front of me you can check out the the context and everything that is set i did not skip over anything i did not delete anything what he said is exactly what he said but there are certain sins which you can commit which the blood of christ will not atone for your own blood must be shed to atone those sins of the very fact and and and most of people listening this program a christians the very idea that there is any sin let alone a serious in but any sin that my sinful blood can atone for when christ said christ sinless blood could not atone for is to me an unbelievable concept my blood cannot atone for spitting on the sidewalk my blood cannot atone for anything because i have committed sin it is the sinlessness of jesus christ and his perfect life which he laid down as a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind not just simply to give them resurrection but to give them eternal life given everything god has to give to them that is the christian doctrine that has nothing to do with the idea that joseph ewing smith view of the atonement which of course is representative of brigham young's view of the atonement uh...

37:59

is completely and totally foreign to the new testament there is nothing testament that ever indicate that capital punishment somehow atone for sin i want our cattle capital punishment does not this has to deal with this has to deal with man's blood atoning percent that is not the atonement of jesus christ spoken of in the bible uh...

38:18

that has no similarity to the biblical doctrine and he said well do you believe he he believes in that well he believes in in the atonement is what he calls it but the atonement he believes in is very different new testament presentation well the uh...

38:30

the new testament definitely indicates uh... in several passages both in matthew and in hebrews that uh...

38:37

there are sins that can put sir uh... someone beyond the uh... the possibility of forgiveness in uh...

38:43

matthew twelve thirty one for example it says for a sent you all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven on demand the blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven on demand uh...

38:53

and again it again what okay with that they've gone for about five minutes running on about this when i asked you a specific question about uh...

39:02

uh... joseph feeling smith's view on the atonement let me just uh... go on a little bit further on this uh...

39:08

again this is i think a very good example of your of yours attempting to draw from a statement of joseph feeling smith some kind of uh...

39:18

conclusion that you're imposing on him that he believes that the shed blood of that are shed blood is in in some way uh...

39:27

similar to the shed blood of jesus christ now the fact is joseph feeling smith believe that the only individual the only person who could do anything to the if to affect the salvation of mankind was a perfect sacrifice a perfect lamp and uh...

39:45

that's a concept that's not uh... uh... i would imagine would not be too foreign to your your way of thinking that the idea of a man uh...

39:55

uh... that uh... a man can atone for his own sins by the shedding of his own blood is not at all with joseph feeling smith was saying he's talking about a specific certain kind of a situation situation where somebody after he has received uh...

40:10

great light and uh... and knowledge is spoken of in hebrews chapter five uh...

40:15

in uh... hebrews chapter six uh... commits grievous sins were in the person crucifies to himself the son of god a fresh and then uh...

40:26

puts himself beyond uh... the uh... the possibility of forgiveness through the atonement of christ that's also brought out in hebrews he's it seems willfully uh...

40:38

mister hale and then mister white jim van hold on for just a couple of moments it's fits uh... sixteen minutes before the hour of one o 'clock we've had some very patient people waiting for us on the line before they fall asleep i think we need to go to the line we've got uh...

40:52

mitch online to make sure you there sorry to make you wait so long my friend you're from scottsdale and what question do you have today and would like to address it to uh...

41:03

well i have a statement and a question personal statement to write it had been to uh... uh...

41:08

both gentlemen uh... on the issue of the virgin birth and uh... mister hale that that he's not when i understand not certain how or certain uh...

41:20

about the different aspect of involved christ's section i'd like to uh... recommend for the read the for the uh...

41:26

listening audiences couple books which deal with that by uh... uh... canadian anthropologist christian doctor article dot called these are the woman and the virgin birth in the incarnation and they feel he deals with the uh...

41:40

biological aspect of the virgin birth quite and the question i have uh... for mister hale is i'm a a person who is searching for truth and i'm looking for evidence on uh...

41:57

you for christianity or for woman is and what to believe uh... but she in regard to the uh...

42:04

holy writing of one or the other uh... in uh...

42:09

in the christian bible there are uh... greek and hebrew uh... manuscript stating back to christ time before his time and it's also numerous greek grammars and hebrew grammars and greek and hebrew word studies and and stuff like that uh...

42:27

i've never heard or seen of any uh... in a linear uh...

42:32

reformed egyptian book of mormons or uh... doctrine covents are pulling great prices how in the world can i have a thinking person when the bible says to examine all things and hope that which is how can i examine that uh...

42:48

the plates and everything else disappeared type of that uh... translated well uh...

42:55

you can't of course in that sense in the the concept of uh... belief in god acceptance of jesus christ coming through the examination of uh...

43:05

archaeology or history or or books or lexicons or and if you have to know hebrew and greek and and that sort of thing uh...

43:14

to come to uh... knowledge of jesus uh... you know most people there are many people that know hebrew and greek uh...

43:20

also jim in in this uh... little publication uh... i was reading of his acknowledges the fact that the uh...

43:27

but the original autographs of the bible do not exist so the fact is you cannot examine yes you cannot examine the uh...

43:34

golden plates but you can examine the original autographs of the bible either the whole concept of religion has to do with with uh...

43:43

faith and belief and uh... and not the idea no one has ever yet prove that uh... the uh...

43:48

resurrection of jesus or the parting of the red sea or anything of that sort and so you know if you want some kind of if you want me to tell you were uh...

43:57

science has proved the lds faith uh... true i can do it but the science has not proved any of the supernatural events recorded anywhere about anything and that is exactly right uh...

44:09

in christianity uh... no one was saying that certainly was not saying that uh... it is required to be a hebrew greek scholar to become a christian what he was saying was that the bible does tell us that we are too examine all things hold fast that which is true and god has provided us with the opportunities of doing that with the bible we can read hebrew and greek uh...

44:30

it is it is very interesting that of course it has always brought up that uh... uh... well the autographs the bible don't exist will of course they don't we have uh...

44:37

some papyri such as p forty six p sixty six p seventy five that could very well date within twenty five years the original or as late as a hundred years later whatever it is anyone who says we cannot reconstruct new testament text the basis of thousands of manuscripts we have is is really big question the other point is is exactly what he mentioned of course most people didn't understand what he was saying by asking about a reformed egyptian interlinear uh...

45:01

the book of mormon and that's a book within the book of mormon uh... says that the uh...

45:07

the book mormons recording reformed egyptian hieroglyphics on gold plates they would have written in hebrew though they change that if they've been sufficient space in the plates the fact the matter is of course it no other found reformed egyptian hieroglyphics uh...

45:20

in america it is not a study the language you can study and hence is a very different revelation if you recall revelation then then in the bible so his point was i cannot examine uh...

45:31

the languages of the of the book of mormon were left only with what he was given to us as and that is the handwritten manuscripts what of what it were left of them of the book of mormon in the eighteen thirty book mormon and when you examine that you find there have been changes even since then editorial changes made by the church ten minutes before the hour uh...

45:50

fought before the hour of one lost my time there that hit with a watch that was building the clock there's a bill will forget it it is ten minutes before one and we have news just five minutes away from international media service and the news facilities here at k f l r will tend to the telephone on uh...

46:10

the line we have warren from northwest phoenix uh... good afternoon warren how are you what question do you have today well in talking to several mormon friends i've been quoted a birth i don't know where it is where says that the bible can only be understood as far as correctly translated i understand that joseph net had endeavored to translate the the scripture the new testament scriptures just wondering if we could have some comment on the process that he used in translating the scriptures and if he actually went to an original type of court to get a correct translation to get a a good understanding okay warren i'm gonna have to take you off the air here because i'm hearing something in the background we've got a loose wire that we got your question so stay with us and listen thanks for your call but by now element he was uh...

46:57

citing a verse from the uh... uh... pearl of great price which says we believe the bible to be the word of god as far as it is translated correctly just paraphrase a little bit but uh...

47:08

uh... and yes joseph smith did do some work on a uh... revision of the bible insofar as how he uh...

47:16

what what he was doing in in that there is uh... no evidence of that any claim by joseph smith to have ever been working with any any manuscripts he was simply uh...

47:28

producing a revision of the bible and it was based on i think on a on a different concept of uh...

47:36

scripture then the concept that maybe this caller others would have uh...

47:41

this concept of the of the bible being a set kind of a book with a certain number of words and that sort of thing and that that's the uh...

47:50

all of the words of god's revealed to me and it's an idea which uh... is foreign to joseph smith's thinking and i think it's not supported by biased uh...

47:59

history of bible as i had mentioned earlier uh... all of the early christian bibles were substantially different and a number of different books uh...

48:07

books within the bible uh... were either longer shorter and that sort of thing in and uh...

48:13

you know we began talking about that never really continued on with it but uh... that is the fact historically let me let me address that uh...

48:20

date are the faith does say we accept bibles were about as far as translate correctly and i accept the article of faith as far as interpreted correctly that is uh...

48:28

the bible uh... if it is willfully mistranslate that is brought out of the original languages in another language uh...

48:36

obviously i would not accept as word of god the new world translation jehovah's witnesses is a prime example of a mistranslation of god's word that i would not accept as as that however mormons uh...

48:47

many mormons have misunderstood that to refer to transmission that the bible has has been has been corrupted over time and and this is how they understand that and there's a big difference there concerning again the the area that mister uh...

49:00

uh... mister hales addressing concerning the the uh... uh... early documents the christian faith the the new testament manuscripts uh...

49:08

i would simply say maybe that if you're really interested in textual criticism that is new testament tax canization new testament we just did the seminar a while back will be doing again a couple months on new testament textual criticism where during the evening we actually get into opening up greek new testaments in dealing with textual variants and the whole nine yards and so the idea that uh...

49:30

that someone was running around with with a different bible uh... and that they were accepting for inscriptions all that stuff uh...

49:37

you know he says it's a historical fact uh... check out yourself i think you'll find that's not the case seven minutes before one o 'clock we have a caller on line one enough time for this just before we go to the news so uh...

49:49

linda are you with us and what is your question or comment linda well i wanted to comment on uh...

49:55

the statement uh... mister hale had made uh... that uh... since he is a mormon mister white would not be in the position to tell what mormons believe but um...

50:07

because of the mormon instruction uh... to not tell people everything that's going on with the mormons you mean the mormons?

50:15

i think somebody just picked up the phone would you please hang up i'm on the radio that was my husband he always wanted to be on the radio brigham young stated there is one principle that i wish the people would understand and lay to heart just as fast as you will prove before your god that you are worthy to receive the mysteries if you please to call them so of the kingdom of heaven that you are full of confidence in god that you will never betray a thing that god tells you that you will never reveal to your neighbor that which thing ought not to be revealed as quick as you prepare to be entrusted with the things of god there is an eternity of them to bestow upon you he said just as fast as you prove to god that you will preserve everything secret that ought to be that you will give out to your neighbors all which you ought and no more and learn how to dispense your knowledge to your family friends neighbors and brethren the lord will bestow upon you and um...

51:08

uh... mister hill even in your document which is your standard work martin harris was told only to preach repentance and not to give certain things to the world uh...

51:20

what you would call that each other than the mail so i would submit that with that kind of mindset be very open with people and tell them right up front what you believe that indeed mister white could tell people what mormonism teaches completely linda hold on for just a second linda can you uh...

51:37

stay on the line with this uh... through the news and so we can continue on this question on the other side thank you very much tell your husband to hold on all right uh...

51:47

pop -up uh... five tentative of van hale he's been brought to the valley with sunstone and alpha and omega ministries so given as jim white for the day and we're discussing the topic of mormonism and christianity online one will get back uh...

52:04

with linda linda do we have to we have you or your husband this time so i think that that may have to have a great day off get near that only in a break your arm okay right uh...

52:14

the topic you had was how mister white say the things that he said you're also talking about the fact that uh...

52:21

he said within mormonism there is a not a are there you your well you go ahead you you can say i think that uh...

52:29

uh... but there are some things that you just don't tell people why is that pardon why is that well they say not to uh...

52:38

gift that mail to add to meet to only get the mail which is to teach without faith repentance i think like that rather than giving them that stronger doctrine uh...

52:50

that the concept being that ad get into the church and learn to talk to not be able to handle it more than if it's given to them before if a lot of people are told a lot of the doctrine before the end of the church they wouldn't if they really understood that on saying that if uh...

53:11

mister white knows that doctrine and help but it is and you could find out what mormonism teaches as much from him if you could from mister hale if mister hale chose not to reveal certain thing what is it that you think i'm not revealing uh...

53:29

i don't know that anything now okay there i i feel like you're not being honest about uh...

53:35

the blood atonement a man's blood being shed for his own sins i believe that the way mister white has expressed it is exactly that there are sins that uh...

53:47

you can commit now when you went to uh... was it matthew you quoted saying that there were sins that you could commit that wouldn't be forgiven blasphemy against the holy ghost i don't think for a minute that has anything to do the mormon concept of having your blood shed to atone that's talking about there's no way to be forgiven well or that but you can't have your blood nowhere does scripture teach that i or you or anyone else can have our blood shed to make satisfaction or atone for our sin and therefore be forgiven that sin and to be saved well uh...

54:24

let me let me suggest this to you uh... just one point to you for one thing uh... in order to understand what uh...

54:31

joseph fielding smith is saying on this point i think you need to have you know broader understanding of of his particular belief my point was when i was getting at he was uh...

54:43

he was uh... suggesting or trying to put across the idea that we have some you know some kind of concept that does not allow for the atonement of jesus christ in uh...

54:54

in mormon thought well well when i when i asked him to have at that time it becomes ineffective if there if there is a and that i can commit that his blood doesn't atone for it then in that sense it's not good enough it's just been set aside and my blood comes in more important i can see what he's saying perfectly on that well i can see why saying that to if that were what uh...

55:16

was joseph feelings misposition but it was not his position his position was uh...

55:22

very clearly stated throughout all of his uh... writings is that the that uh... that uh...

55:27

forgiveness of sin there is no forgiveness of sin on any condition whatsoever without the atoning sacrifice of christ i asked jim about that and uh...

55:36

and instead of answering my question he went off on a a little discourse which went off in an entirely different direction but that was allow me to point something out here the question was asked do you believe that joseph billing smith believed in the atonement of christ i did not say that joseph billing smith did not believe in the atonement of christ what i was trying to put across is that his concept of the atonement of christ is completely and totally different and how a christian listening this broadcast will understand the word atonement and the idea that uh...

56:10

it is only joseph billing smith this teaching this concerning what atonement is not true i'm not trying to misrepresent this let me put all the cards on the table anyone listen this radio program wishes to examine the facts wishes to examine the sources we have read from please contact me at the office will provide you with photocopies will provide you with our track and tell but it's on the mormon church which quotes all these sources we will do everything we can so that you as a mormon or a non -mormon can find out whether the mormon church actually teaches that there are certain sins that only your shed blood can atone for and that is very clearly what the statements say mister hale can say i misunderstand them all all he wants to i know many mormons who would back that up to the health they have defended that to me more than once and that is not only just joseph billing smith as bruce r mcconkie that is brigham young as the doctrine of the church and i'm not misrepresenting anything whatsoever by saying that that is the position is made so what i'm trying to do is contrast and compare that to the biblical teaching that uh...

57:12

john one seven if we walk in light is he himself is in light we have fellowship with one another in the blood of jesus his son cleanses us from all sin colossians two thirteen all our transgressions were forgiven the cross of christ the bible teaches that there is nothing that our blood can do to atone for anything he brought the impartial sin in matthew twelve matthew told very many makes it very clear than that passage there is no forgiveness for that whether you shed your blood for not even here is a says there remains no sacrifice for the first and not even of your own blood there is nothing in scripture says there is anything in your blood that can tell me for anything and the idea that there is any saving power in your blood whatsoever makes null and void the sacrifice of jesus christ and that was the point i was trying to make which again represents a misunderstanding which was a feeling smith was saying and uh...

57:57

but uh... and let me let me give you a passage that you can take a look at this is in first with his chapter five uh...

58:03

in which uh... paul is condemning the corinthian church for not having done something about a man who had uh...

58:10

committed a grievous sexual sin with his father's wife and uh... as you go down to uh...

58:16

verse four of this particular passage it says in the name of our lord jesus christ when you're gathered together my spirit with the power of our lord jesus christ to deliver such an one under satan for the direct for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord jesus so that here are some questions but i'm not sure let me just monkey uh...

58:36

make a comment on that before you cut in here it's uh... uh... what what's being suggested here by paul in this particular passage is that this person be delivered over to satan for the direction and for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord jesus he's saying that this person ought to be his flesh be destroyed and uh...

58:59

uh... that he may be saved in the day of the lord jesus in this happens to be one of the passages of on which uh...

59:04

bergen young and others have have drawn this concept of somebody committing such a grievous sin uh...

59:10

he should be destroyed in the flesh but still the possibility of there being uh...

59:16

salvation possible for him but even at that the salvation is not possible for anybody under any circumstance without the atoning sacrifice of jesus that's the doctrine uh...

59:26

the book of mormon all of our standard works and spin a doctrine top uh... i think the destruction of the place but need to do it killed a person because in second corinthians uh...

59:36

paul command them to take that person back into the congregation so he isn't followed up with over much viral we're not talking about uh...

59:44

maybe they may be breaking out and uh... some of your profit the population that but they've mentioned that because there would be no way to take that person back in if he had just checked his blood to account for that but you keep saying that uh...

59:57

mister white has misrepresented that i would like to read a quote from brigham young uh... you don't have to just go to uh...

01:00:04

one source there are many parts i'm sure mister white just simply limited himself because the time but brigham young said i'll take a person in this congregation has knowledge with regard to being baked in the kingdom of our god and our father and being exalted and suppose he is overtaken in a girl's fault and he had committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desired and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the gods is there a man or woman in this house but what would say shed my blood that i may be saved and exalted with the gods now that's very clear that's exactly what joseph fielding smith was saying well it may be what joseph smith was saying but the interpretation is being placed upon uh...

01:00:51

joseph fielding smith but this somehow uh... uh... rivals or or or does away with the uh...

01:00:58

the atoning sacrifice of jesus is blood that let me ask you to have a look at that let me ask and you can't let me ask this question again is there anything just anything that you can come up with that anywhere suggests in in the writings of brigham young joseph fielding smith or anybody else that it is possible for a person to be saved uh...

01:01:24

on his uh... either on his own merit without the atoning sacrifice of jesus christ or in any way be saved without the uh...

01:01:31

the death uh... an atoning sacrifice of jesus christ it at a point i can't read it wouldn't be any good and allow me to excuse me if i don't know if i had his is the answer then allow me allow me to take this mister hillary completely misunderstanding both when denied this point we are not saying that mormonism says that jesus christ is not a tone percent we are not saying that you're saying that you're totally misunderstanding what we're saying i'm glad to get this point the point is that you are limiting the power of his atonement job joseph billing smith said that those things would place him beyond the power of the blood of jesus christ and to say that that means that that man's blood then is powerful enough to do it when it's beyond the power of christ is to make that sinful man's blood more powerful the blood of christ another passage another passage very quickly that that was very close to what linda just quoted is in the journal discourses volume four page fifty four let me just read this again i invite anyone the audience to contact us at the office of two six five four eight four four request our blood atonement tract they want to look at these things themselves it says quote it is true of the blood of the son of god was shed for sins for the fall and those committed by men yet men can commit sins which it can never remit these are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon alter as an ancient days in their sins the blood of a lamb of a calf or turtle doves cannot remit but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man that places the finite sinful blood of the man above the power of the blood of the son of god the sinless son of god to atone for that is not biblical doctrine matthew twelve hebrews nothing has anything to do with that and i would simply say to the audience you look these things up yourself you check these things up yourself and decide whether that is a accurate representation of the atonement or if it is not well i i like the fact that you just heard the whole hold on for just a second linda we're gonna have to take you off right now but i do appreciate your call thank you very much program thank you and we have got gene on the line we've got dennis on the line we're gonna get back to van we're going to get back to jim in just a few moments but first of all it's one eighteen and you're listening to the midday for a friday and so busy day today and we have a lot of very patient people on the phone i appreciate the patience that you've shown today find out uh...

01:03:55

gene are you a patient person today well i appreciate that uh... you have a question or comment today a comment uh...

01:04:04

i went to the mormon church for a while my mother went through the temple and the mormons believe that jesus died for some sense and not all sense that we have to pay for some of our sins also the hymns that they sing it's all about joseph smith and their pioneering days and i haven't when i went to the church they didn't have anything about jesus and their hymns there is no cross in the church and also it took a while before my mother came out of mormonism and we had to prove different things so we went even to the mormon library and i can't remember the book but the book says that joseph smith is better than jesus christ and the apostles and it took a while for my mother to come out because she was afraid and she said she had to take an oath in the temple that if certain things were revealed then they'd have to take their finger and go across their throat in other words they'd have to cut their throat and there's uh...

01:05:10

more a lot more but uh... i mean it'd take a while before i'd go into it so all i'll do is hang up now gene thank you for the call we appreciate that and we'll let van and jim discuss that thank you jean very much bye bye now van?

01:05:26

well uh... i don't know that i doubt what she's saying about having gone to the mormon church for a while but if she has i can't begin to understand how she could uh...

01:05:36

sit in a mormon church and think that all we do is sing hymns to joseph smith and that's all we have in our hymnal we do have a uh...

01:05:43

couple of hymns and out of uh... over three hundred in our hymnal that uh... mentioned joseph smith but we have in every single one of our what we can refer to as our sacrament meetings we sing uh...

01:05:55

songs about the uh... hymns about uh... the atonement of jesus christ we uh...

01:06:00

the sacrament that we administer is in uh... remembrance of the uh...

01:06:06

death the body and blood of jesus that was shared for the sacrifice of man's sins and i i don't know uh...

01:06:14

what's what you're saying was just really a very very gross misrepresentation of uh...

01:06:20

of what goes on in uh... in the world and latter -day saint meeting they mention uh...

01:06:25

uh... most of the mormon hymns uh... do mention christ i do have some real problems with such songs as praise to the prophet but uh...

01:06:34

the book she was referencing uh... concerning uh... joseph smith statement about jesus christ does not say he was better than jesus christ the book is referencing his documentary history church volume six pages four waiting for a nine which says quote i have more to boast of than ever any man had i am the only man that has been ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of adam a large majority of the whole stood by me either paul john peter nor jesus ever did it i boasted no man ever did such a work as i the followers of jesus ran away from him but the latter -day saints never ran away from me yet and of course we can provide you with a photocopy of that uh...

01:07:10

i'll point out that uh... one month one day later joseph smith was killed in the carpenters jail and that such a statement by a person i i really feel is not a christian statement it's not a true statement either since uh...

01:07:22

a large number of the uh... original twelve apostles had quote -unquote apostatized this point and many of the letter said they say it's had run away from joseph smith and so the that's the reference she was making it does not say joseph smith said he was better than jesus that is a is a is a misnomer was uh...

01:07:38

you i read the the quote to you can you can look it up for yourself uh... let me ask you uh...

01:07:45

uh... what let me ask you how many of the twelve apostles had uh... left the church at the time of the statement as i recall uh...

01:07:52

people who have been excommunicated the number that comes to my mind i'd have to look it up with seven at that time a number of them were reinstated at later points as i recall seven of them had been excommunicated uh...

01:08:03

before the death of joseph smith that starting from uh... what will be the year for the first of twelve uh...

01:08:09

eighteen thirty five okay so all that period of time a number of people were excommunicated brought back in excommunicated the the number of excommunications and and the words that flew about back then uh...

01:08:20

i don't think all that important fact is that many people have left the latter day saint movement that time i would say numerically many more than had left uh...

01:08:29

the uh... christian faith okay gentleman hold tight because we need to get uh... our other patient people on the phone right now and get their questions we have dennis from the metro center area what is your question or comment dennis okay my question or comment basically isn't question initially in regard to the gentleman that was uh...

01:08:49

committed to meeting the friend with his mother uh... also paul told the people at the church to often from the church because obviously that was not a proper conduct uh...

01:09:01

what what is the the element opinion that how can they try that the fact that this particular individual after he repented of this later with fellowship at the church uh...

01:09:17

when repented of this that's great wiped out how can they equate that particular situation then too united the blood uh...

01:09:28

type situation well the and the first place uh...

01:09:33

you would need to demonstrate that this person was reinstated in the church maybe you'd like to do that first i was looking for the second book of griffin here to find that the rep media reference didn't come to mind but i'm sure that one of the other gentlemen station probably would be able to uh...

01:09:47

find it i've been scanning through here to pay it but i know he did come back after he didn't repent of the possible said that they they should accept him the other question i have is well i i don't know how to answer that question uh...

01:09:57

let let let me answer this way first uh... in light of the fact that that uh... point has not been demonstrated nor do i think there is anything in second crimp insecurely identifies this individuals having come back into the church but what but uh...

01:10:12

that that's right or that his uh... or that he was destroyed the flaccid flesh i don't think that we know the uh...

01:10:17

what was the fate of this particular individual from the scriptures doesn't tell us but the uh...

01:10:23

but the fact is i think an idea is presented here that uh... uh... that uh...

01:10:30

i i see is presenting some support for what uh... brigham young and others have said and that is the idea that it is possible for someone who's could get that's in grievous enough to put him beyond uh...

01:10:43

the the situation is simply being able to uh... turn to jesus for the uh...

01:10:48

for the remission of that sin and i think he bruce chapter six resistance and i don't like the scriptures that the other gentleman has quoted that come out say that uh...

01:10:56

correct atone for all things there isn't anything that can't be handled well i i quoted uh...

01:11:01

of course matthew chapter twelve which indicates that there is a great but there is a particular uh...

01:11:06

blood well well i think i think it's related in in the sense the idea of uh... it's not a direct situation uh...

01:11:13

quoted in the other scriptures in corinthians where it does that uh... collection of the work of the blood of christ take care of all of it uh...

01:11:20

what what what i'll be if it's not all well then blasphemy what the sin of blasphemy against the holy ghost and is that it well what about matthew twelve and i think it would make it perfect for that you think it would be very effective it will not come out to a definite yes or no when someone asked you to apply i thought i i i thought i had stated over and over again and i don't know okay do you want me to say it or not but i do what i thought i had stated over and over again that i believe that it is uh...

01:11:49

possible for a person to commit a sin that puts him beyond the uh... the atonement of christ and well all uh...

01:11:57

all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god what does all need to be uh... what does it mean to me in jesus and i don't think that they were talking about uh...

01:12:05

i think we're specially due to time we're going around circles here let me give you the reference second corinthians chapter two verses four five and six uh...

01:12:14

seven eight is a reference you're looking at reference that all this goes back to this again we are skipping the very idea that the mormon doctrine teaches that man's blood is can be as powerful in fact more powerful than the blood of jesus christ to atone for sins that's the important thing trying to tie it in with this idea in corinthians i think anyone was listening realizes that's really stretching it there is no connection there there is nothing about the chapter twelve it says a man's blood can atone for anything chat matthew chapter twelve is in reference to the blasphemy against the holy spirit as the holy spirit is one who brings conviction if you cut yourself off from the holy spirit you will not convict you of sin hence you cannot ask for forgiveness and hence that's what makes it unpardonable it's not the seriousness of the sin but the effect of the sin so the whole the whole idea that there is any type of biblical basis for uh...

01:13:02

blood atonement of a man and the very idea that even if you reject the bible or say there's a revelation beyond the bible is completely contradictory to the revelation given by the holy spirit is not christian and i think that strikes at the very part of the difference between mormonism and christianity is who jesus is he is not one god amongst many gods he is the true god and what he did his atonement is complete it is all sufficient it cannot be added to by anything we can do or anything we can do by shedding our own blood and what uh...

01:13:30

jim has said uh... most of what he said i would simply agree with the idea that uh...

01:13:35

man's blood is more efficacious than jesus that it's more powerful is a is a very false and heinous doctrine and and uh...

01:13:43

i frankly am uh... appalled at the fact that he would try and pose that kind of an idea on mormonism and he's he seems to think he justifies it by twisting and distorting statements that have been made there is a show just show me a statement jim or just contacts on go ahead and look it up contact ok do it do it find that uh...

01:14:03

again uh... the doctrine as taught by the mormon church is uh... is very different uh...

01:14:09

from uh... from what mister hales attempting to react as he's upset with me for saying that but uh...

01:14:14

but i have had many mormons tell me exact same thing and i really feel that if you look at it yourself don't take my word for it look at the things yourself make your own decision let's uh...

01:14:24

talk a little bit today about the mormon church and i know then uh... you do a program on the mormon church in uh...

01:14:30

salt lake city is that right yes that's correct uh... tell me a little bit about your show what do you uh... talk about exactly well we uh...

01:14:37

we talk about uh... any aspect of mormonism we uh... do a call in format i imagine similar to what you do here and we take calls from uh...

01:14:46

anybody who would like to talk on the subject uh... from any perspective personally i am a uh...

01:14:52

i am at am lds and uh... of course pro lds and uh... we we just discuss any sorts of subjects that uh...

01:15:01

may come up and uh... that's uh... a wide range of subjects a whole talk show based on the uh...

01:15:07

mormon religion yes we do uh... two hours a week that's uh... incredible what kind of topics come up on that show just as an example well the uh...

01:15:17

actually we've been doing a program on two different stations one a uh... uh...

01:15:22

a station that has christian programming and uh... the questions that come up on that station are generally are almost always of a doctrinal nature or historical nature discussions of the concepts of uh...

01:15:35

the godhead salvation uh... history things of that sort and on the other station which uh...

01:15:41

is uh... station i think uh... would be similar to what you have here uh...

01:15:46

then uh... whole lot of things other types of things come up uh... mormon involvement in politics uh...

01:15:53

things more of that nature and maybe a little bit less doctrinal uh... jim white uh...

01:15:59

you are as i understand it a southern baptist minister yes we've we've talked so many times before and i never really knew which church you represented uh...

01:16:07

it is my understanding let me get this straight uh... in case i i'm not exactly accurate that that you feel that mormonism is occult tell me why well that would depend upon your definition of what a cult is first of all a cult is not uh...

01:16:23

in our idea uh... a word that automatically means anyone associated with it is immoral or sneaky or terrible or anything like that we define a cult by uh...

01:16:34

some very strict definitions for our use i think it would be well enough simply to say that we define a cult in this situation is a group that claims to be christian and yet denies the central doctrines of christianity in reference to the things that van brought up earlier such as uh...

01:16:49

the godhead salvation uh... the bible uh... topics such as that so we use uh...

01:16:56

we use the term because we're almost forced to use it we would much rather prefer to use a different word because the word cult is associated with almost anything you can identify i mean you've got everything from moonies and hari krishnas to to people in business suits that automatically comes into someone's mind when you think of cult so i i don't really particularly like the word but uh...

01:17:14

if we're going to use the word the way we've defined it then yes i would say that do you think mormons need to be deprogrammed not uh...

01:17:21

not in the way that uh... uh... you would talk about deprogramming in reference to a an organization that would deprive people of sleep deprive them of proper nutrition uh...

01:17:32

put them in a situation where they cannot think for themselves in that sense no as far as dealing with some factual subjects and biblical subjects if you want to call that deprogramming fine i don't i don't ever call it that i would call a uh...

01:17:45

a witnessing situation and sharing different beliefs and uh... and what is in fact god's true revelation van are you a member of a cult certainly uh...

01:17:55

christianity's a cult i mean by uh... by all technical definitions uh...

01:18:00

a cult uh... has a uh... strong leader at the head a uh... strong organization so forth and uh...

01:18:08

christianity's always been thought of as a cult and uh... but i i would well jim is a christian also is he a member of a cult too yes certainly well again you can see how the definition of how you define cult uh...

01:18:21

determines whether you're going to be describing that or not i think the the reason that alpha omega exists uh...

01:18:27

in reference to uh... dealing with mormonism is dealing with the fact that uh...

01:18:32

alpha omega ministries didn't fire the first shot in this uh... over a hundred years ago over a hundred fifty years ago a certain man by the name of joseph smith claimed he saw god the father and god the son and grove of trees and that god told him that every christian church creed so on so forth was an abomination to their uh...

01:18:51

uh... professors were all corrupt so on and so forth and so we must realize that uh... our response to mormonism uh...

01:18:57

is just that is a response to an attack made by the mormon church which claims to be the only true living church on earth today uh...

01:19:03

and that all of the christian churches even though they sometimes use the term christian reference to us uh...

01:19:09

do not have the fullness of the gospels mormon church has it and that uh... as far as god's concern the mormon church is going to church on earth today in response to that van well the uh...

01:19:19

the point of view of latter -day saints of course is uh... much along the line of what jim said i think you know there i would take maybe a little exception to a couple things he said but uh...

01:19:29

basically the the position of the latter -day saint faith is the same position that christianity is always taken and that is that god has revealed a message that he wants for those who received in the message to take uh...

01:19:42

to the world and christianity is always claimed uh... to be the the true church and uh...

01:19:48

uh... mormonism is taking the position that uh... the christianity is established by jesus fell into a apostasy during the early christian centuries the restoration has taken place in uh...

01:20:01

beginning in eighteen twenty and we are now taking a uh... a a pure form or a uh...

01:20:08

more advanced form of christ's message to the world uh... most of what uh...

01:20:14

christians believe today uh... latter -day saints believe also you know the concept of jesus's had defined being a savior that he came here to uh...

01:20:24

uh... to work out to uh... uh... as a sacrifice for mankind and so forth so there were there are a lot more we have a lot more in common with for example the southern baptists in the than that which we would differ on jim is shaking his head no i i think that that is is uh...

01:20:41

in name only the similarities i think when a person examines the doctrines as they are presented by the mormon church and i would and emphasize that by the mormon church uh...

01:20:51

the mormon churches is not uh... lacking in the monetary funds uh... to present their message in the best way that is possible and there has been a concerted effort over the fat past few generations to uh...

01:21:05

present mormonism as being something as as christians as is possible uh...

01:21:10

unfortunately when one examines the actual doctrines as stated by the church uh... one finds that uh...

01:21:16

i can hardly think of any particular doctrine that is not different that is not changed in my vocabulary twisted in mormonism in comparison to christianity and i'd also like to mention that the way we define a church is very different in mormonism a church is a specific organization with a specific person a prophet at the head his counselors twelve apostles so on and so forth uh...

01:21:37

the uh... a a person such as myself would identify a church as being a a much wider concept than uh...

01:21:43

than a organization as the mormon church describes it uh... and describes itself you have a problem jim with the mormon church at all do you have any problems with it?

01:21:52

no i'm not an ex -mormon uh... i have nothing against mormon people uh... i'm not out on a witch hunt or anything like that i think they have the right to believe what they want to believe to practice what they want to believe and all the rest that i am not in any way supportive of any action that would limit their freedoms that would limit their ability to preach whatever they want to preach i know there are some that are i am not one of them uh...

01:22:16

they can you know preach whatever they want to preach our ministry is involved however in responding to the fact that mormonism's very basic message is an attack upon christianity is an attack upon our doctrinal statements and i think a person who is going to make a decision about joining the mormon church or leaving the mormon church should have all the facts available to them to make a proper decision they should know both sides if you don't have all the facts available to you you cannot make a proper decision and so we feel that on a number of instances the mormon church it makes very specific claims very special claims that a person making a decision about joining the mormon church does not have all the facts accessible to them uh...

01:22:59

and that uh... we want to make sure that they have the facts accessible to them so they can make the proper uh... proper decision on the basis of that and so no i'm i'm not out uh...

01:23:08

what kinds of things you afraid that people don't know for example you i'm not sure what you know about mormonism tom but uh...

01:23:16

if you if you know much about it you realize the mormon church makes very specific claims they make claims concerning uh...

01:23:24

historical events in the past century i'm mainly in upstate new york concerning joseph smith they make claims concerning uh...

01:23:32

ancient records such as the book of mormon uh... revelations such as in the doctrine covenants pearl of great price some very uh...

01:23:39

specific claims that if true would obviously lead a person to think that mormonism was a divinely inspired religion uh...

01:23:47

however most people most mormons uh... i think van probably agree with this most mormons are not aware of some of the historical problems with their own faith i was reading vans article on the adam god doctrine uh...

01:24:00

just today and uh... he himself admits in there that most latter -day saints are not really familiar with all the facts concerning uh...

01:24:08

that issue and of course are many christians are not familiar with with things concern christianity as well so not faulting them for not knowing about them i'm just saying that uh...

01:24:17

if a mormon missionary out on his ten speed in the afternoon like this who's obviously dedicated ways doing really want to examine uh...

01:24:25

the first vision story if you want to do that thirty forty years ago a lot of the facts concerning first vision story would not have been available to him uh...

01:24:33

they are today because uh... their ministries that have taken the time to make sure that that information is published and the pressure is placed on the church to uh...

01:24:43

open up some of its historical records to examination that have never been opened up before i would i would have to take exception to that uh...

01:24:51

that kind of a statement the fact is that the uh... the source uh... there there's been a tremendous effort in the lds faith uh...

01:25:00

from the very beginning beginning in eighteen thirty to keep extensive uh... detail records and uh...

01:25:06

the church has preserved has a tremendous archives of uh... in salt lake city a tremendous number of uh...

01:25:13

records that have been preserved uh... beyond uh... in fact the collection is so extensive that there's no way that uh...

01:25:19

a person or a dozen people in a lifetime could uh... could go through all of these records uh...

01:25:26

the uh... jim makes reference to the first vision there have been uh... number of different accounts of joseph smith's first vision it was uh...

01:25:34

told and retold in early years different people wrote down accounts uh... accounts were published of it and so forth and some accounts that were written that were not published uh...

01:25:43

have also been found within the uh... archives of the lds church the idea that some ministries have forced the church to open its archives to allow people to do research and uh...

01:25:55

into these things is uh... it is simply a misstatement of fact the fact is that lds historians have been doing research in the uh...

01:26:03

church archives from uh... the time they were they were established to the present and a great deal of material has been published and so forth and the accounts of the first vision joseph smith's first vision uh...

01:26:15

were first published through uh... in lds journals and things of this sort and uh... the research was research that was done by lds historians not uh...

01:26:24

based upon any pressure put on them by any non lds uh... christian ministry allow me to point out that i did not say that the lds church does not do research in its own documents what i said was that there's a great deal of information that the church is not seen fit to publish until it was uh...

01:26:40

forced to do so let me give an example uh... joseph smith's eighteen thirty two diary account of the first vision uh...

01:26:46

in which he mentioned seeing only one being not two beings was published i believe in the late sixties uh...

01:26:53

by ministry in in salt lake uh... run by jerald and sandra tanner the first time that i am aware of the actual photocopy that document being published in any lds source would be indeed see jesse's book which was published when that was about uh...

01:27:07

two or three years ago the personal writings of joseph smith was it was that uh... photocopy published in an lds journal uh...

01:27:14

before that time and if it was uh... why isn't it's a widespread uh...

01:27:21

piece of information as i see you have a photocopy of the right there which of course i have with me uh...

01:27:27

since that time it has become very common knowledge for example you may recall the december and sign of last year contained uh...

01:27:36

uh... an account of that very thing uh... by dean c jesse which i believe you have right there no that what what i have in front of me right now is uh...

01:27:45

bly studies uh... issue that was published nineteen sixty nine publishing a photostatic copy along with the type ten transcript of uh...

01:27:54

this particular vision but fact is that this this was not known for a long time there it until somebody's aware of the uh...

01:28:02

the magnitude of the lds uh... archives in the fact that most of the material had been collected uh...

01:28:08

in in large amounts and had been in boxes and things of this sort uh... in nineteen seventy two when the church uh...

01:28:15

opened its uh... new church office building in salt lake in this new historical department they put catalogers and folks of uh...

01:28:22

people of this sort to work in large numbers going through the uh... historical collections of the church and in that time a great deal of material that nobody has known as existed it's just been in boxes where you can't you know you can't retrieve it but uh...

01:28:36

someone will come along and say well the church has been suppressing this well the fact is that nobody knew about uh...

01:28:42

this there's a great deal of material that nobody still knows about uh... the church is uh... just the historical department of the church alone up to nineteen forty two had produced two hundred and forty thousand volumes of history now someone can come along and cry that uh...

01:28:57

the church is suppressing this because they haven't published a two hundred and forty thousand volume set of LDS history but uh...

01:29:04

that would of course be nonsense to make that kind of a of a claim the fact is shortly after this uh...

01:29:09

this was uh... discovered by a BYU professor and was part of a uh...

01:29:15

uh... a thesis that he had written it was uh... found out by uh... or was discovered by uh...

01:29:22

the tenors that uh... jim mentioned and they published it and there have been cries since that uh... that the church has been forced into publishing it but that's nonsense uh...

01:29:30

dean c jess jesse published it under no force or direction alright let's go to the phones because we have a bunch of people on the line who want to talk to us at two five eight k f y i two five eight fifty three ninety four van hale and jim white this is uh...

01:29:44

barb in phoenix hi barb you're on fyi radio hi tom i have a question i don't know if you remember but earl had a show about maybe a month ago on mormonism and one of the points that they brought up was um...

01:29:58

uh... i'm not sure if i got it right but black people who were considered sinners and my question is are black people allowed to join the mormon church uh...

01:30:09

i obviously didn't hear the program but uh... the idea of uh... black people being sinners is not an idea that has uh...

01:30:18

i think probably what uh... you're having reference to is that uh...

01:30:23

for a number of years there was a point of view and uh... you know it has certainly not entirely uh...

01:30:29

gone away but there has there was a point of view that uh... black people could not hold the lds priesthood but uh...

01:30:36

in the uh... lds church black people have always been uh... could could always become members there's never been any ban on that but there was uh...

01:30:46

a point of view that uh... the uh... black skin uh... was a curse that goes back to uh...

01:30:53

canin or toucan and uh... and that they were not should not hold the priesthood that uh...

01:31:00

in uh... several years ago that position has changed within the lds church and today there are a number of black people who hold uh...

01:31:10

the priesthood so forth so it has changed yes june eighth nineteen seventy eight spencer kimball received what was called a revelation uh...

01:31:20

van called it a viewpoint in the church the viewpoint was taught by brigham young and uh...

01:31:26

and all the other church leaders so it was it was not just a a viewpoint uh... it was uh...

01:31:32

it required a revelation to change and so uh... up until june eighth nineteen seventy eight a black person uh...

01:31:39

could not hold the priesthood in the mormon church and that is of course an extremely important thing in the mormon church i mean uh...

01:31:45

uh... a young white mormon boy can be uh... ushered into the iranic priesthood as a deacon at age twelve uh...

01:31:51

but that's without even that low an office was not available to the uh... to the black individual but like we mentioned june eighth nineteen seventy eight that uh...

01:31:58

that changed well i just thought it was pretty disgusting they didn't say that it had changed on that show but i guess it just really made me mad and i couldn't get through that night you know because like i'm a christian and i don't know that much about mormonism but i think that you know everybody has feelings and you know there's more either going to go to heaven or hell and nobody's there's not going to be a broadway southwest you know for rich people i mean we're all going to go to the same place and it really made me mad when i heard that you know something about just because your skin was black that meant that you were a sinner i didn't hear the program so i cannot comment on what they were what they were saying concerning it and if that were the position that was taken uh...

01:32:42

that's not an lds point of view and and has not been okay then by barbara thank you thank you but i thought by now two five eight fifty three ninety four only one opening of the board two five eight k and why i and uh...

01:32:55

jim you're gonna say something before the break yes i was i was going to ask them uh... concerning uh...

01:33:00

the the doctrines of the early church uh... do you find parallels concerning the mormon teaching that men can become uh...

01:33:08

gods exaltation to godhood uh... such things as plurality of god's god was once a man uh...

01:33:15

material like this i've i've uh... it's sort of a begging question because i've read your material before listen to you uh...

01:33:22

and have done some study on the other church fathers myself and so i i'm i'm wondering if uh... uh...

01:33:28

you really feel that the early church believed that god was once a man uh...

01:33:33

or that you could become a true god uh... i would say uh... yes to to uh...

01:33:39

part of your question uh... they have very prevalent point of view in early christian uh...

01:33:45

writings among water thought today to be orthodox christian fathers uh...

01:33:51

was that men may become god uh... become gods and this uh... this idea just to give a give you a couple of uh...

01:33:58

people who have made statements along this line you have uh... at the nation's for example who i don't know whether this was original with him but uh...

01:34:05

uh... perhaps not uh... but one that uh... uh... a little aphorism that uh...

01:34:11

continued on was that uh... god became man so that men may become god uh...

01:34:16

that's an idea that he presented uh... in a uh... recent book published by uh... uh...

01:34:21

lutheran publishing company entitled christian doctrine by a man by the name of conleth jones uh...

01:34:28

he spends uh... sixty or seventy pages talking about how prolific the point of view was an early christian among early christian uh...

01:34:35

fathers that uh... this idea of men becoming gods or becoming part of dvd there were several different uh...

01:34:43

angles on this uh... i happen to have uh... several different quotations with me from tertulian and origin and uh...

01:34:51

athanasius and uh... augustine i don't know if you want me to read those are not going to let me let me point something out that uh...

01:34:57

obviously you've read this book right uh... god in in patristic thought, i haven't read that particular one well uh...

01:35:04

g .l. prestige is considered a great scholar in that realm and uh... it is interesting to me that people would would quote from the early fathers such as origin tertulian uh...

01:35:14

athanasius is an extremely early but anyways uh... attempting to draw parallels between the mormon doctrine that god was once a man and that men can become gods i asked you if if you could find one that said that god was once a man and i'm referring to the father at that point and you you didn't come up with something like that let me point something out a person is familiar with the early church fathers knows that the overriding consideration all that the other thoughts in their teachings uh...

01:35:38

was the fact there is only one true god in mormonism you have at least three gods for this planet and early mormon apostle orson pratt said that if you took a million worlds like this and numbered their particles you'd have more gods than that that's an awful lot of gods uh...

01:35:52

over four hundred thousand times in the temple over there in in mesa which was alluded to a few times in yesterday's program uh...

01:36:00

here on tom's program uh... people go through ceremonies which supposedly help to prepare them to becoming exalted to godhood and if a person reads these quotations you have in their context i think they'll find that you're taking them terribly out of their context and ignoring a vast number of things that the early church fathers said themselves the point of the matter is this uh...

01:36:22

we started off uh... forty nine minutes ago with the question uh... do i consider mormonism a cult and tom asked that question and we have not yet had the real opportunity of of getting into why it is that uh...

01:36:35

christian organizations identify mormonism in that way if someone identifies a group as a cult because they don't like somebody that's stupid i wouldn't do that that's dumb and everybody would realize that we do it on the basis of the solid fact that mormon doctrine concerning who god is what salvation is what the bible is is not christian doctrine though mormonism claims to be the only true church claims to be the the true representatives of christianity uh...

01:37:03

mormonism attacks uh... the very source of christianity that is the bible uh... says that it is uh...

01:37:09

it is faulty uh... and utilizes this kind of attack to bring people into the mormon church now a large number of people who join the mormon church come from christian backgrounds uh...

01:37:21

a very large part and so our ministry in response to mormonism is just that is a response by saying no wait a minute the source of christianity the bible says that there is one true god that god was never a man that man cannot become a god uh...

01:37:37

that man because of jesus christ can become a partaker of the divine nature but not a god and uh...

01:37:43

that is the important differentiation between mormonism and christianity and i think it'd be better to discuss that because that was the original question than a lot of side issues that uh...

01:37:53

most people most people never heard of athenagoras or or origin or tertullian or anybody else they probably don't really care too much about him either so let's let's deal with the real issues all right let's take a break here well uh...

01:38:05

yes jim was uh... in his last little comment throughout about six or eight different points and i don't you know i don't know how you address that many things that are thrown into into one statement but uh...

01:38:16

he seemed to be complaining about uh... about my suggestion about the early christian fathers uh...

01:38:23

as uh... maybe going a little bit off the track but that was a question that he raised himself and uh...

01:38:29

i gave some information on that i didn't say it was off the track i was saying we were sort of getting away from the subject that we originally started addressing it was your question however and i i gave uh...

01:38:37

just made reference to a number of different places you want to pass these off by saying that if uh...

01:38:43

people were to read these they would see that maybe i'm taking these out of context no not the specific questions i'm talking about the entire reading writings of that father well i i have uh...

01:38:53

have looked at the writings of a number of the early christian writers who are talking about the concept of men uh...

01:38:59

becoming gods or becoming uh... uh... receiving of the divine nature and becoming divine themselves that idea is very prevalent in early christian writings let me just read one statement and this comes from origin and uh...

01:39:13

he's writing this about two hundred and thirty eighty he says that and incidentally i'm quoting this from uh...

01:39:18

the set the antinous nysian fathers uh... which is a ten volume set of uh...

01:39:24

christian collection of the writings of the early christian fathers and he says this he says the highest good then after the attainment of which the whole of rational nature is seeking which is also called the end of all blessings is defined by many philosophers as follows the highest good they say is to become as light to god as possible but this definition i regard not so much as the discovery of theirs as a view derived from the holy scripture for this is pointed out by moses before all other philosophers when he describes the first creation of man in these words and as and god said let us make man in our image and after our likeness and then he adds the words so god created man in his own image in the image of god created he him male and female created he them and he blessed them now the expression in the image of god created he him without any mention of the word likeness conveys no other meaning than this that man received the dignity of god's image at his first creation but that the perfection of his likeness has been reserved for the consummation namely that he might acquire it for himself by the exercise of his own diligence in the imitation of god the possibility of attaining to perfection being granted him at the beginning through the dignity of divine image he goes on and i you know it's maybe longer than i should have read anyway but he's pointing out that men can become uh...

01:40:41

like god and this is a this is a concept not only like god but he goes on to indicate that men may become may actually become gods and that's the term that he uses but allow me to respond to that a person who reads origin will also find out that origin was a subordination estin a number of other things the point is this origin also was very careful to safeguard the unity of the one true god and i again uh...

01:41:06

request uh... mister hale if he's going to refer to the church fathers to take everything of the father said it's not everything origin said and it and when it's divorce from his own statements concerning the unity of the godhead then of course will be misunderstood i would also like to point out that he is not yet provide an instance where it can be said that god was once a man in the in the church bus that you can find many heritage not uh...

01:41:29

valentinian gnosticism such as the uh... dead sea scrolls yes let's get back to what we're saying the point is the mormonism is teaching that god was once a man would you agree with that i would agree that that's an idea that's widely believed not let me come in on that i i i went off on this the he brought up six or seven things all at once and and uh...

01:41:50

my comment was uh... i picked out one particular one that i wanted to come in on uh... the fact is i would agree with you i don't believe in the early christian writings the idea of god having once been a man except in the concept of jesus having been god and and became of course and uh...

01:42:05

that that ideas is prevalent but the idea of god having once been a man in the concept in the way that uh...

01:42:12

latter -day saints believe it i don't think that idea is found in the early christian do you think that right important to mormon doctrine though i think it's important mormon doctrine but also important to mormon doctrine is the same concept that we find in the new testament and that is that god is gradually unfolding himself and we believe that god has revealed things today that have never been revealed before so uh...

01:42:31

to say that there are some ideas of mormon's hold that are not found in the early christian fathers is perfectly true and it's uh...

01:42:38

central to our belief in continuing revelation we're gonna take a break eight minutes after five o 'clock at fyi radio nine ten thursday seventeenth of july nineteen eighty six we continue at two five eight fifty three ninety four two five eight k f y i with us today van hale talk show host from salt lake city jim white from alpha and omega ministries the show two five eight fifty three ninety four is our telephone number let's get a few callers on we've had people holding up for so long sue's been holding on the longest first time caller from buckeye hi sue hi how you doing hey this question is directed to the

01:43:20

LDS fella and uh... i know this one guy he was married for seven years to this mormon gal and they had two kids you know he took him to church and he was you know really a family man and really doing his old thing and took the lessons and what have you but when it came down to the last the last straw he never it was you know either join the church or don't and he didn't and uh...

01:43:45

three months or six months after that she filed a divorce and uh...

01:43:51

i was just wanting to know what kind of justification do you have for this fine upstanding mormon gal well i don't know i don't know how i can comment on anything like that i i don't know who they are the situation but one thing i i do know is that uh...

01:44:08

religion has been uh... has resulted in the breakup of uh... many marriages and i'm not just talking

01:44:13

LDS but every religion you can think of uh... religion has gotten in the way of marriages but with within the

01:44:20

LDS faith there is a uh... a very strong uh... position uh... among the uh...

01:44:25

strong instruction to the uh... leaders of the local congregations the bishops who were the uh...

01:44:31

leaders of the local wards that they're not to advise uh... members to divorce and uh...

01:44:37

if uh... you know so simply what i'm saying is there isn't there isn't any church policy that uh...

01:44:44

if a woman's husband is not uh... a mormon that she should divorce him i don't know where you know anything about the situation but uh...

01:44:51

that's policy alright sue i thank you for the call two five eight k f y i is our number two five eight fifty three ninety four let's say hi to dean in phoenix hello dean capital that wouldn't support him and uh...

01:45:08

bear with me you may not believe that there's a little bit on the issue at hand at first but i think you'll see jim do you believe in the pre -tribulation rapture theory what uh...

01:45:17

let's explain that to the uh... to the audience in which and what you're talking about uh...

01:45:22

within the christianity there is and a number of viewpoints concerning the end times uh...

01:45:28

there are those who believe that there is uh... going to be a millennial reign of christ which uh... of course uh...

01:45:34

is fairly prevalent in mormonism which is a van uh... a literal reign of christ on this there is the view that there is not going to be a millennium that's called all millennialism and there's a view that says that uh...

01:45:45

millennium sort of already started post -millennium then once you get within uh... the uh...

01:45:51

the millennial viewpoint you have pre -mid or post -tribulationism and uh...

01:45:57

all these are just fun uh... designations i was raised uh... to be pre -trib uh...

01:46:04

a pre -tribulation uh... premillennialist and i have examined the all -millennial viewpoint i can see that they have points i can see that uh...

01:46:12

uh... premillennialism has points uh... i think when you get down to exactly the uh...

01:46:17

the scenario for how it's all gonna wrap up uh... if someone says they've got it all locked down uh...

01:46:23

that's a pretty difficult thing to say i think that the most consistent viewpoint is is the one that i take but uh...

01:46:29

i have some dear friends mind that uh... take other viewpoints and we never sit around and beat each other over the head with the bible about it if that answers your question your answer is yes alright dean thank you very much for the call two five eight k f y i mary and phoenix hi there hi yeah i have a question for either jim or the other gentleman i had seen a couple of years ago a movie uh...

01:46:52

i believe it was the godmakers and i have forgotten a lot of it but one thing that really uh...

01:46:59

really i did not understand is that uh... mormons this is as i understood it now mormons believe that those in good standing are going to inherit their own planet and then they will propagate uh...

01:47:14

that planet and uh... what i don't understand is that science has only found so many planets you know and how do they have an insight and where are these planets and if they are there why are they hiding all this from science or do i have a completely distorted view of what i saw and what was explained to me okay well that's uh...

01:47:44

that's very interesting let me let me uh... just state a little something uh... about the views that too many latter -day saints hold and that is that uh...

01:47:54

uh... we believe that this world is not the uh... the only creation of god that has been populated we don't believe that it was the first and nor do we believe that it's the last and you're you are correct in in uh...

01:48:09

in what you said that among latter -day saints there is a belief that in the resurrection uh...

01:48:15

that members of uh... the LDS faith if they progress to a certain point will have the opportunity of supervising future creations of future worlds and presiding over those that point is widely held among latter -day saints and uh...

01:48:32

so that's correct but uh... where those planets are uh... i don't know that scientists would say that they have found uh...

01:48:40

a certain number of planets because for one thing they can't they do not have any ability at this point to determine what planets there are around any other stars other than our own sun and uh...

01:48:53

the assumption uh... the obvious assumption and one that i think uh... i think all astronomers would take is that there are uh...

01:49:02

perhaps innumerable planets throughout the universe around other stars that are similar to our sun uh...

01:49:08

let me respond to saying that i i can't see how van could could answer the question about why we can't find the planets uh...

01:49:14

for the exact reasons he said the important thing to me is that from the christian viewpoint from the biblical viewpoint the very idea uh...

01:49:22

that a person can become a god can uh... rule over his own planet is very clearly contradicted by scripture god himself says in isaiah forty three ten before me there was no god formed and there will be none after me and so the the point that i want to stress at that point is that mormonism does teach that man can become god that man can uh...

01:49:43

progress eternally to that point will eventually uh... rule over his own plan if you want to use that terminology i don't think mormons are extremely specific as to uh...

01:49:51

the exact nature of that but the point is that god is not unique uh... that there were gods before him they'll be gods after him scripturally that is uh...

01:49:58

completely untenable position i would disagree with you on that jim i think that that position is uh...

01:50:04

uh... insofar as the planets is concerned i don't think is expressed in the bible but very clearly throughout the new testament we were told over and over again that uh...

01:50:13

everything that jesus that all these things that jesus is inheriting the fact that he's going to rule and reign he's going to sit on the throne with uh...

01:50:21

god that uh... he will pass judgment so on and so forth all these things our promise to those who uh...

01:50:28

become joined their joint heirs with jesus of all of the father has and uh...

01:50:33

and peter and in the book of peter indicates that work even going to share the divine nature and uh...

01:50:39

so everything that's being presented in the new testament of that uh... that jesus christ all the powers and things that he has our uh...

01:50:46

are going to be shared according to the new testament well then i can become sons of god uh... with i can and i can understand how you can understand that when you reject the old testament revelations clear teaching the fact that i don't want to god and i don't think the new testament is uh...

01:51:00

is based upon that that no one in new testament there's more than one god everything to point it out has nothing to do with the fact that to god create us as people we will become perfect people in his presence not perfect god the gospel is not that men can become a god but the god became a man the person of jesus christ and provide for redemption from our sense as uh...

01:51:18

there's a a a false viewpoint concerning that band you want to say something i i i'd i'd like to make a reference for example of john chapter two and please do appreciate that you're you're saying that we reject uh...

01:51:31

the old testament revelation you're wrong there uh... the question about about god how many gods are there depends upon in which in what sense you're speaking of the bible clearly indicates uh...

01:51:42

for example in psalm eighty -two that there is a a congregation of gods and that uh...

01:51:47

god presides over that now that's that's not true sir well uh... many people who don't know psalm eighty -two which would take that face value if you look at psalm eighty -two is about unrighteous of judges of israel even your own uh...

01:51:58

mister talmadge page five oh one of jesus christ admits that is the case when you read where he is taking that from the old testament law you realize he is not talking about true gods for some ninety six five itself says all the gods the people are idols but there is only one true god uh...

01:52:12

that is the one god who is identified as yahweh in the old testament you would say that yahweh and elohim are separate and distinct gods would you not well it depends on on in what frame you're speaking but uh...

01:52:22

well for example in the temple ceremonies uh... they are presented as separate distinct gods are they not uh...

01:52:28

i don't uh... particularly like the idea of throwing out uh... six or seven different ideas and i didn't want and i i didn't know i'd like to go i'd like to go back to uh...

01:52:38

uh... to john chapter ten in the psalm uh... eighty -two i think uh... there is a wide uh...

01:52:43

uh... that there are a large number of biblical commentators and scholars who very uh...

01:52:49

uh... in in and uh... many many writings uh... have expressed the point of view that's all made it to is in fact talking about a uh...

01:53:01

a council of god's like a congregation of gods that's ridiculous it's ridiculous for me to say that it's ridiculous that you could say a true scholar a mormon might but the true scholar would say that that that's what that's about what let me let me give you a let me cite you finally sources why don't why don't we do well while we do some lawyers why don't we let the audience look it up and read it for themselves only to give any sort of a lot that's fine but i'll tell you what i think i'm going to talk about one passage that a lot of people not even familiar okay but let me give a couple of sources in my guess you you're saying this redic ridiculous for me to suggest that scholars would say that fact is your bible scholars yes the fact is that uh...

01:53:36

the interpreters bible commentary a very liberal commentary regardless of that uh... you can say it's liberal but uh...

01:53:42

the interpreters bible commentary as well as the anchor bible commentary both expresses idea very strongly and very clearly that they are saying there's a council of god that uh...

01:53:52

yes that the uh... some eighty two account is talking about a council of gods over which uh...

01:53:57

god presides and that this idea is car is is not only there but it's in a number of different references so what you're saying what you're saying that is despite uh...

01:54:06

the very clear reference insomnia to itself that identifies in this judges and despite the numerous passages about the fact is only one true god in the old testament and despite your own james talmadge is disagreement against you you would rather go with liberal uh...

01:54:21

christian scholars and say we're talking about many gods here without dealing with the whole revelation that's that's the point that you have no less i don't think that's the point i have let me let me think you're you what you what i would said to a minute ago is that when you're talking about how many gods are you have to see you have to talk in a uh...

01:54:39

in what sense you're speaking i'll talk about units in isaiah that okay what about statements you god second corinthians four four would you uh...

01:54:47

he is called a god yes okay as is that uh... moses is called a god and exodus seven one one that's not a call god's army to six but i don't have a hole in the john ten band and it'll allow them allow me to finish my point are we ever told to pray to those people are ever told to worship them have faith in them are there identified as one true god the old testament no now you're you're you're you're really pulling a straws that no i'm not that's because you're your point is exactly my point if you're talking in the sense of of the being that you worship you offer prayers to there is one and only one true to worship jesus yes i worship jesus even though bruce armaconti told you not to worship jesus uh...

01:55:22

bruce armaconti didn't have to tell me not to worship jesus i thought i see that uh... he needs to take a break i'll provide a reference for you right after he takes a break will come back never talk to me about it uh...

01:55:32

will come back van hale and jim whiter with us for talking about the mormon church first -time caller gary thanks for holding this is tom uh...

01:55:40

my question is uh... what does a man have to do to be saved and what does the bible say about directed to either gentleman uh...

01:55:56

who are you addressing that to? okay well uh... since i seem to have the bigger mouth the two i'll take the first shot at it i guess first of all what must a man do to be saved uh...

01:56:08

act sixteen thirty one very clearly expresses that uh... believe in the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved john five twenty four clearly says jesus quoting here truly truly i say to you that he who hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life and shall not commit a judgment but is passed out of death into life uh...

01:56:25

very clearly the bible says that a personal relationship with jesus christ is a means of salvation uh...

01:56:30

the important thing that i would bring up in reference to that is make sure that you're talking about the real jesus christ for jesus himself said in john eight twenty four that unless you believe that i am he you will die in your sins he said that to a bunch of people that were standing around him looking him right in the face he was very clearly indicating that unless they believed his revelation of himself uh...

01:56:48

they would die in their sins concerning hell uh... a lot of people brought that subject up before uh...

01:56:54

on on programs that i have been on or have listened to and i think to understand the concept of hell and eternal punishment one must realize first of all the love of god providing for salvation but if one is going to say god is love god is complete love then one must realize that as much as he loves he must hate that which would hurt the object of his love that means god hates sin with as much hate as he loves the sinner and so eternal punishment though people call it an abhorrent doctrine uh...

01:57:22

would leave god as a as an unjust despot uh... who just simply justifies all sin by not punishing it the bible talks a lot about hell in fact it talks more about that talks about heaven and jesus addressed the subject more than he addressed any other subject and uh...

01:57:37

so it is a very important thing to to realize the bible does talk about a great deal and that we need to be prepared to deal with that i would uh...

01:57:46

concur uh... with with much of what jim said i think uh... one thing that that uh...

01:57:52

he has left out in the concept of salvation is that uh... scripture the bible from cover to cover presents to us the concept that a person must obey god that obedience to god is uh...

01:58:04

is one of the requirements of salvation uh... and uh... in hebrews five eight nine for example indicates that jesus is the author of salvation and all them that obey him and that concept that idea is uh...

01:58:16

of obedience to god being essential is uh... just found in the hundreds of passages throughout the scriptures i thank you for the call gary two five eight fifty three ninety four terry and nation but holding on for a long time also hi terry i had a question i hope uh...

01:58:33

but it can clear up for me i've had for several years uh... in my understanding that when you're married or fielding temple uh...

01:58:41

but you're married for all eternity and uh... stop it and uh...

01:58:48

if that's true but i wonder if they do away with uh... jealousy and uh...

01:58:54

and rivalry stuff because i know a couple of women who are going to have two or three husbands uh...

01:59:01

well that's yours van uh... that's a good question and uh... an interesting question and uh...

01:59:08

for those who are not familiar with the LDS belief on marriage latter -day saints do believe that uh...

01:59:14

marriage bonds can go beyond this life into the resurrection and marriages are performed in LDS temples for the ceiling of uh...

01:59:23

a man and woman for throughout eternity uh... however there are such things that take place as uh...

01:59:30

people have been married in an LDS temple getting a divorce so you know the idea of uh...

01:59:36

this being something that cannot be broken in any way uh... is not you know it's not correct and also the idea of a woman being married to more than one man in the resurrection is a idea which is foreign to mormon thought uh...

01:59:51

van would you say that uh... that marriage ceremony that ceiling in the temple is essential to exaltation to godhood yes i would say that so then so that the caller understands from the mormon viewpoint unless you are sealed in the temple married in the temple you cannot be exalted to godhood thank you for the call terry two five eight k f y i this is chuck in phoenix five thirty at f y i radio hello chuck hello tom i need to speak out a little bit on uh...

02:00:20

comparison between church policy in marriage and uh... and their reality of how they actually work things i was married to a mormon girl for nineteen years i'm by the way uh...

02:00:34

catholic and their policy is somewhat two -faced i had a bishop uh...

02:00:43

in the uh... bountiful area of utah tell me that uh... it was far better for my wife to be married to a mormon tend to try to work out any kind of marriage problems and uh...

02:00:57

he would not assist in any kind of counseling at that point uh... she had met a mormon fellow uh...

02:01:06

her family's up there by the way and uh... befriended him uh...

02:01:12

and to make a long story short uh... the result of the divorce i received custody of both children i uh...

02:01:21

you know ken i i don't know how somebody can comment on uh... you know one of the most difficult things that you ever uh...

02:01:29

have to comment on is uh... when you hear one side of a divorce story you know i don't know what to say about that the fact is that there have been as i said before uh...

02:01:40

religion does get in the way of many marriages and it doesn't matter what religion you're talking about this happens frequently uh...

02:01:47

it's certainly unfortunate but uh... that's that's the way it is people are sold so strongly involved in religion frequently that uh...

02:01:55

america simply cannot work for the tours are uh... not compatible religiously let let me mention something about this uh...

02:02:02

who gets divorced uh... who doesn't uh... i don't think uh... anyone would say is is an indication of truthfulness or falseness of religion but let me point something out i know of many instances of the situation which you're talking about personally people i've been personally involved with leading out of the mormon church and the situations that resulted there from and i would just like to point out that this kind of a strain on the family uh...

02:02:26

evolves from and finds its basis in uh... the doctrinal questions that we're discussing earlier concerning the idea of here you have a church saying that unless you go through this ritual in a specific temple you're not going to be exalted to godhood enhance the worst they could happen would be for a woman to be married to a man who won't take it to the temple and and i've seen this over and over again where were friends have left the mormon church and and there's been a divorce or near divorce because the the mormon woman or if it's the other way around the mormon man is is under this kind of a pressure and i would say that from the bible's viewpoint this kind of idea of of striving for worthiness for exaltation to godhood is completely and totally foreign to anything that is christian it's another one of the places where this idea you know some of your listeners might say well who cares you believe there's one god or many gods this is an area where uh...

02:03:19

that that stress is seen where uh... a vast difference between christian theology which which uh...

02:03:25

except only one true god uh... and the polytheism of mormonism uh... comes into play mormonism is not polytheistic in the first place but uh...

02:03:33

uh... you believe there's more than one god let me go back to your statement you're making maybe go to that in a minute but uh...

02:03:42

you know matthew five forty eight says uh... be therefore perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect does not say be a god as your father in heaven is a god it says be therefore perfect even as your father which is a perfect human being yes you're talking about striving uh...

02:03:56

that is uh... you you don't like the idea of striving for perfection the source is completely different than in christianity the source of striving is not obedience to gain it is obedience because one has already been given that assurance of eternal life that's what's so different between you're going to ephesians five i've heard you talk about ephesians five numerous times before the vast difference between your doctrine of salvation and what i would identify as the christian doctrine of salvation is the source mormon salvation is anthropocentric it finds its basis in man christian salvation is theocentric it finds its basis in god and so it is not my energy that strives to be obedient it's not my energy that strives to be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect as the holy spirit within me it empowers me to do that and we see what can happen when a person is put in a situation where they must go through certain forms and rituals to gain some kind of gift from god some kind of exaltation this man i think his name was chuck his uh...

02:04:53

his cases it is a case in point well i would disagree with your characterization of uh... the mormon point of view on salvation you you have some kind of misconception about it the uh...

02:05:03

no i don't believe i do well you do i i'm gonna see you say it's uh... anthropocentric uh...

02:05:08

the the lds concept of salvation is that without god means salvation is something comes solely and entirely from god knows there is not any way in the world that any person ever can earn salvation that's that's lds belief that's right central to the core of the lds concept of salvation man does not earn salvation it's something that comes from god and from god alone but the fact is that god has uh...

02:05:32

decreed and he has commanded that men must obey him and that uh... you know and perform certain ordinances uh...

02:05:38

well whatever whatever requires it if it requires uh... sacrificing your son as he commanded abraham to do then that's what it requires that is not what gained him salvation sir he was made righteous in the sight of god by faith over twenty years before that let's let's at the book of mormon express it secondly five twenty five twenty three in the book of mormon says we're saved by grace after all we can do but that is a is a is a terrible misunderstanding of the very word grace the greek term chorus and what it means uh...

02:06:05

it is just just as terrible well i don't uh... i would uh... of course disagree with you on that but the the lds concept of salvation is that uh...

02:06:13

person must obey god and that i don't know how anyone can can deny that based upon the uh...

02:06:19

the numerous passages in the in the bible that say that you must obey god and if you disobey god there's no place for you in his kingdom but your obedience is not the basis of the salvation jay is first time caller from phoenix on fyi radio hello jay how you doing i'm okay very good this is basically for uh...

02:06:37

for mister white uh... this is what i personally am lds and quite frankly um...

02:06:43

i think it's fascinating i'm just uh... totally amazed and impressed honestly with your sincerity uh...

02:06:50

your your honesty of heart um... and most of all your incredible uh...

02:06:57

uh... knowledge you're incredibly knowledgeable and quite frankly i think the main thing that comes down to mormonism what keeps mormons mormons is this they basically have each one has their own personal revelation and their testimony i'm sure you're familiar with this we do believe in the uh...

02:07:20

right of uh... personal revelation to receive a testimony of what we believe is true and there's many things that come about that that uh...

02:07:29

people try and prove that mormonism is false or whatever the basic the reason it has no effect upon the mormon members is that each one has their own individual testimony of it basically that uh...

02:07:45

comes about first of all by getting a testimony of the book of mormon which you are familiar and quite frankly that is why the mormon church is successful because it's an internal thing jay uh...

02:07:59

i'm sure that uh... at least i hope from what you said that you would realize that i would not in any way question uh...

02:08:05

the fact that you are sincere i'm sure that you are i'm sure you have a very strong testimony nor i hope would you question the fact that i too have a very strong testimony the truthfulness of what i believe and that i'm as i'm just as sincere about it as you are but since we believe completely and totally opposite things obviously uh...

02:08:22

we have uh... a problem if a testimony is the basis of truth proverbs fourteen twelve says there is a way which seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death jeremiah seventeen nine says the heart is deceitfully wicked who can understand it when we place our faith upon a testimony when we place our faith upon uh...

02:08:41

i know this is true because i have a testimony not only are we in danger of allowing the enemy uh...

02:08:46

in christianity that would be satan to fool us at that point but we are avoiding the scriptural example that we are to take any teaching and we are to examine in the light of scripture act seventeen eleven when paul and silas came preaching the gospel to the bereans they didn't get down pray about it it says they searched the scriptures daily to see where those things were so so if you have a testimony for example the book of mormon is true that i would say that your testimony must stand up to the factual examination of the book of mormon just as my testimony must stand up to a factual examination of the bible and i am not afraid of making a factual examination of the bible i hear this viewpoint all the time tom i don't know if we discussed it before but we have twenty four record phone messages for mormons here in the valley do you mind if i give the number right ahead uh...

02:09:30

two six six two lds if you if you dial two six six two lds you'll hear a different message every week about mormonism right now we're talking about the changes in the book of mormon and very often very sincere people will leave very lengthy messages at the end of the message about their testimony i know that that's a very sincere feeling but you must balance that testimony against what god has already revealed and examine what the real source of that testimony truly is jan and chandler first -time caller hi jan hi how are you doing i'd like to ask the mormon gentleman uh...

02:10:03

what he would say how the church can recognize the bible as an authority and then make the statement that that we can become like gods in lieu of genesis three five which states that the serpent spoke to the woman and it was the original sin that if you eat of the fruit your eyes will be opened and you will become like god and this caused all of the fall of man well i don't uh...

02:10:33

i would not uh... necessarily agree with your interpretation of that but as uh...

02:10:38

we look in in genesis uh... yes the serpent does say uh... that you shall become as gods but uh...

02:10:46

as we go on in the account of genesis we find out that uh... after they partake of the forbidden fruit at least in that one respect of knowing good from evil uh...

02:10:55

the bible acknowledges that that is in fact what what happened is they did become as god knowing good and evil uh...

02:11:03

you know i don't uh... i i think your point about that uh... being the first great sin uh...

02:11:09

the first great sin was of course disobedience to god that was the first great sin and those are the uh...

02:11:14

those are the the rest of the sins but uh... the idea of uh...

02:11:20

the serpent was correct in telling them that and at least insofar as knowing good and evil they would become like god in that and god responds and says that's correct that's what did happen i'd like to point out to you also that uh...

02:11:34

uh... the bible uh... gives us the indication that the origin of satan's fall was the fact that uh...

02:11:40

he wished to raise his throne above god and become like god isaiah chapter fourteen and uh...

02:11:45

i would like to point out also that uh... biblically speaking one of the main uh... differences i feel between mormonism and christianity is in reference to jesus christ at this point and that is that you mentioned lucifer lucifer in mormonism is jesus christ spirit brother uh...

02:12:03

whereas the bible very clearly in ezekiel twenty eight thirteen in addressing the king of tyre and through him addressing satan says that satan is a created being jesus christ created all things colossians one sixteen to seventeen so biblically jesus christ is the creator of all things he is not our spirit brother uh...

02:12:20

he is not uh... the spirit brother of lucifer but he's the creator of of all things there's a very big difference between the mormon presentation of who jesus is and the bible's presentation of who jesus is i thank you for the call jim did you want to say something there van?

02:12:34

uh... certainly i would say that uh... one of the major points that uh...

02:12:39

jim and others try to make is that the mormons have uh... are talking about some other jesus when they're talking about jesus i would like to ask jim uh...

02:12:46

since he believes the bible is the source for uh... information about jesus uh...

02:12:52

i would i'd be interested uh... jim and you're telling me uh... giving me an example or two of anything that jesus said or did in his uh...

02:13:01

that's recorded in the bible that mormons say no we don't accept we reject that that's not uh...

02:13:06

our jesus so on and so forth well jesus himself said there is only one true god you should worship only one true god you change that to well that's one true god for this planet but there are other true gods outside of god since he once was a man uh...

02:13:18

you reject the bible's viewpoint of jesus being the creator of all things you asked me for a number of things there's at least five major areas that separate the mormon jesus and the true jesus give me a passage let's take a look at a passage give me a passage something that jesus said okay how about paul is paul good enough no i i was talking about jesus i mean you're saying we uh...

02:13:37

we believe in a different jesus than the jesus of the new testament i'm saying what tell me something that jesus did that mormons say no our jesus didn't do that you're you're you're begging the issue the point is the presentation made by the mormon church of who jesus is not what he did while on earth and not too many mormons are running around now of course mormons deprecate the accuracy of the bible as you yourself have done i'm not talking about that i'm not talking about saying that uh...

02:14:03

you are coming up with some other jesus uh... that uh... that uh... is uh... is different than jesus that uh...

02:14:08

is recorded scriptures what i'm saying is your teaching concerning who he is what his work did what his relationship to the father is is very different in the scriptures the bible does not well i know you disagree i i if you didn't disagree wouldn't be a mormon uh...

02:14:23

and the bible very clearly says that jesus is the creator of all things the bible very clearly says that jesus blood cleanses from all sin the bible very clearly says that jesus is the creator of lucifer not his spirit brother uh...

02:14:33

he is not one god amongst many gods but he is the alpha and the omega the first and last beginning in the end he is the one true god of the old testament that created all things let me ask you a question if jesus had a beginning at some point if he was not always god who created the planet that his father lived on when his father was a man who did that?

02:14:54

before i answer your question why don't i comment on the seven or eight things you just brought up well i did bring up a number of things because you asked me but since we only have nine minutes why don't you answer that one question for me in the first place we do not believe that uh...

02:15:09

that jesus is a created being so your position on that's wrong but wait did he has he always been god uh...

02:15:15

jesus has always existed but he hasn't always been god he progressed to godhood well uh...

02:15:20

he was god before he was he was the god who created this world in LDS theology you're suggesting along with the father and michael did the father play any part in the creation of the world of course he did but did jehovah did jehovah i don't understand you're bringing that up then no the point is in mormon theology there were three involved uh...

02:15:39

according to mormon temple ceremonies god the father sent jesus christ and michael down and then jehovah would send michael down and and all these things through a very long creation episode whereas the bible when you realize it is monotheistic very clearly says in isaiah forty four twenty four that jehovah created all things alone by himself there was no one with him michael wasn't tagging along the father wasn't directing him to do anything what about the son was the son there that the son is jehovah all three are identified as jehovah according to the scriptures you're saying the son is jehovah there's only one true god jehovah god jehovah elohim is how the old testament describes him deuteronomy four thirty five to you it was shown that you might know that jehovah he is elohim besides him there is another how about acts three thirteen what about it well uh...

02:16:21

jesus is uh... presented there as being the son of the god of israel yes okay in in hebrews he's presented as being the creator yes okay uh...

02:16:31

you're saying uh... the god of israel is jehovah are you thinking i'm attempting to say that jesus is the father are you trying to misunderstand me at that point i'm saying how many persons were present you know that the christian trinity how many how many persons were father son and holy spirit let me finish my question how many persons were there present at creation father son and holy spirit all the one jehovah god okay and and you're saying that uh...

02:16:53

that uh... then acts chapter three verse thirteen indicates that jesus is the son of the god of israel of course since you make god a man then you understand son in a literal way which of course the bible does not allow well you're missing my point my point is that you take this passage in isaiah and you're saying that uh...

02:17:11

jehovah created this alone the fact is that uh... acts chapter three verse thirteen indicates jesus is the son of jehovah you don't believe jesus is jehovah i know you do yeah well i i believe well then you then you just made my point no i haven't made your point you're trying to put words in my mouth which are your words not mine and now you want to move along to another call i don't blame you i don't blame you i have to take a break here we're going to come back i guess van hale jim white we're coming back hello i'd just like to say i agree with jim and the fact that uh...

02:17:43

i don't i also feel that the mormons are not christian but i had a question for van and that is is that uh...

02:17:51

i understand that uh... mormons regularly practice the fact that they use more than one doctrine or one scripture to go by that they follow the bible that uh...

02:18:00

uh... three different types of mormon scripture and then the mormon doctrine on the subject of uh...

02:18:06

the fact of believing in more than one god uh... the bible says that there is only one god and i've got five or six or eight or more different scriptures that show that uh...

02:18:15

mormon scripture also says there's only one god but your mormon doctrine says there is more than one god uh...

02:18:21

my question is is because you believe in all three of these things when uh... one of uh...

02:18:28

one of the uh... type that you have is a mormon scripture it says there's only one god as well as the bible why do you believe when two says that there is a one god why do you believe that the third one that there is actually more than one god well let me uh...

02:18:45

let me defer to a little example that einstein gave one time and i i don't know it seems like this this should just be obvious but uh...

02:18:54

let me use his example anyway he he tells one time about uh... here's this example he says that you have a train that's going north at a hundred miles an hour and a person gets up on the from his seat and starts walking toward the back of the train at three miles an hour now the question uh...

02:19:11

einstein asked is uh... which direction was the man going was he going north or south you see it's relative the train's going north at a hundred miles an hour but in relationship to the train the man's going south at three miles an hour you know and you're caught in that kind of a situation the bible clearly indicates uh...

02:19:31

in in a number of references that there is one and only one god and mormons believe that too but you have to uh...

02:19:37

determine in what sense you're speaking the bible also indicates that there it uses the term god in the plural sense gods in a number of different references it uses the term god as uh...

02:19:49

jim had mentioned earlier in reference to uh... satan it uses the term god in reference to uh...

02:19:54

uh... moses uh... in exodus seven one uh... it also jesus uses the term to refer to man he says that men are appropriately referred to by the the uh...

02:20:04

term gods uh... you go to a first corinthians chapter eight verse five and here it talks about there being one god and one god only and then paul distinguishes here between the father who is god and jesus who is lord and so here you have another situation that comes into play here uh...

02:20:22

paul's indicating there is only one god and he's he's drawing a distinction between that one god and jesus so if there is some sense in which in the in the new testament there is some sense in which jesus is not god there is some sense in which jesus is god so you have you have to speak relatively on these terms uh...

02:20:39

t l i would i would also respond to that by saying that the bible is not relative concerning the fact there's only one true god jesus himself so there's only one true god even in the eighty second song which van brought up earlier where it says uh...

02:20:51

i said your god's your son's most high the very next verses but you shall die like men and fall like anyone the princes uh...

02:20:58

the bible when describing the true god describes him in certain ways it says that he is eternal some ninety verse two before the mountains are brought forth without form the earth in the world even from everlasting to everlasting thou art god the god of mormonism has not eternally been god he progressed to that status uh...

02:21:14

when he talks about false gods in the forty third and forty fourth and forty fifth chapters of isaiah he is making a very clear point he says before me there was no god form there shall be none after me he was not saying before me there are no false gods form there'll be no false gods after me he was saying i am unique i am one of a kind i am the only one when you take that solid foundation of monotheism from the old testament and keep it in mind when interpreting the new testament then you do not fall into the errors that many organizations have fallen into in reference to the new testament and the idea that men can become gods or anything like that the new testament writers were all monotheistic jews except for of course luke who was possibly a gentile but they all accepted the old testament as complete scripture and the viewpoint of that old testament as being the fact there is only one true god and and i believe that too but i believe it in the sense in which i believe they were speaking but in psalm chapter eighty two i i realize now that you're referring to uh...

02:22:11

later verses i was making reference to psalm eighty two verse one where it says god presides in the heavenly council in the assembly of the gods he gives his decision there's a heavenly council being spoken of in the first of psalm eighty two which is presented here as being an assembly of of the gods and god presides over that notice the rest of the verse there van please the rest of the thing uh...

02:22:34

god takes a stand in his own congregation he judges in the midst of the rulers how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked vindicate the weak and fatherless do justice to the afflicted and destitute rescue the weak and needy deliver them out of the hand of the wicked uh...

02:22:46

van please uh... the the passage itself quite obviously is referring to human judges because how can a congregation of judges uh...

02:22:55

gods somewhere in the universe uh... judge unjustly show partiality to the wicked not vindicate the weak not vindicate the fatherless not do justice to the afflicted it's obviously in reference to that uh...

02:23:06

to to twist that out and ignore from the very beginning of of the bible from the very pentateuch from deuteronomy from all the way back at moses let's go back to beginning here we're talking about psalms let's go all the way back to the beginning let's go back to moses way back when moses says in deuteronomy chapter four verse thirty five quoting god he says unto you it was shown that you might know that jehovah he is elohim there is none else besides him now that is the foundation that every good jew every morning would get up and he would say that she must you might say i don't know if you may know a hot hero israel jehovah is our elohim jehovah is one that is the very basis of of uh...

02:23:44

of the revelation and to miss that is going to allow you to to uh... to make the errors that you're making but it is not a consistent viewpoint and it could not stand up to any kind of a solid investigation of it well i uh...

02:23:56

but you can go ahead and say that but as i said before i uh... the fact is that some eighty -two talks about an assembly of god's okay you see you say that these gods here are our man i mean even if that were correct which uh...

02:24:09

which it is uh... well you see you say it's correct but i was uh... it's not only uh... my point of view but it's the point of view of of a number of uh...

02:24:17

biblical scholars that this is talking about a a heavenly assembly that says god presides in the heavenly council of gods that god presides in the heavenly council so what you're saying then that there are gods but the bible says there aren't any so what you're doing let me point something out to the people that are listening the scholars that you are referencing the scholars you are referencing such as the interpreters bible those gentlemen do not believe that what you hold in your hand is inerrant they do not believe that it is truly god's word in that it is consistent with itself they would take the position well this writer thought this and this writer thought that and they contradict each other and so they can come up with this kind of stuff but to the christians in the audience or to anyone examining this i would point out the fact that the bible claims for itself to be inspired to be the very word of god and that if you're going to accept it for what it claims itself to be then you are not going to interpret those things the way that you do you're going to interpret as if it was written consistently you're interpreting as if it is written inconsistently that is not the way that you understand these things you brought this up a couple times before i'm wondering when you when you're talking about the the bible and wondering what bible it is you're talking about hebrew and greek texts of what?

02:25:27

hebrew and greek texts i am not talking about english translation you and i both know that those are simply translations i have here for example my greek new testament i could open this up read you a passage out of this that would be my translation but that is simply a translation which greek text are you talking about as being this bible which is inerrant and word for word god's word what are you talking about the very autographs that they wrote?

02:25:52

the autographs and where are these autographs? well you know as well as i that we don't have the autographs. that's right and not only do we not have the autographs but the the form in which the new testament uh...

02:26:01

you're talking about the new testament the form in which we now have it uh... the the books that are listed in that uh...

02:26:08

uh... varied for many years for many years there were uh... you know you're talking about this word for word book and you brought it up a couple of times before uh...

02:26:18

but uh... the early christians had a different bible than you're using no i'd say that's completely false let's get a call in here because we have a lot of people holding on here we'll just uh...

02:26:27

we'll continue as we go along with gene in phoenix hello gene hello hi i just want to make a comment i'm not a mormon and i'm not uh...

02:26:37

i don't belong to any church and like that but i do support and do definitely believe and just a regular understanding of the english language that psalms eighty -two and john ten i think it's thirty -two he is referring to men as being children of the most high and that we are gods in the sense of not being a tyrant or something to bow down and pray to but gods of love and gods of uh...

02:27:12

a god in a singular sense true but i think nature itself about having children automatically reflect the way it is and the heavenly kingdoms i feel that we are god's children i have i want to get to my son one day or even better i'm sure that god is our father wants us to have the same or better that's my opinion that's what i feel i don't belong to any church i don't belong to any mormon or anything but i feel the most better example of that is the way jesus told the scribes and pharisees after they felt that he was blaspheming against him by saying he is a god and he told them hey look you're the same thing you can do what i can do but the thing is in your own darkness like psalms eighty -two says in your own darkness you feel that you're just a weak fleshly being here to just reach a certain point to be bowed down and serve god like he's some type of tyrant sitting on the throne but he is a god of love and if he is a mighty god of love he loves his children to the point of giving them what he is and what he has that's all i have to say thank you gene allow me to respond to that by saying that uh...

02:28:23

if you want to take john ten psalm eighty -two and pull it out of the rest of the bible and deal with that fine if you want to call that your bible but uh...

02:28:30

to a person who accepts the bible for what it claims to be obviously you must deal with all of it not just parts of it you must deal with it in its context and you must also realize that john one twelve very clearly says that not all of us are the children of god because it says there but as many as received him to them he gave the authority to become the children of god even though they believe on his name the bible does not say that all people are literally god's offspring whereas mormonism would say that we are literally the offspring of god well mormonism uh...

02:28:58

takes the position that uh... in the fall uh... we don't think in terms of everybody being sons of god that's something we believe in in one sense but in another sense we don't in the gospel sense a person has to accept jesus and so forth uh...

02:29:13

to become a son of god but i'd like to go back to this passage at the caller brought up in john chapter ten because i think it's uh...

02:29:19

it's extremely significant and uh... one worth looking at here jesus is being accused of blasphemy by the jews because he's saying that he's the son of god and his response to that is to point out this is uh...