TiL - Esther 8

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. You're with Rob and Dan tonight. We're going to answer some revelation questions and.

Continue. In the book of Esther. I knew it was coming and I was ready for it this time.

I've yet to spend some time to correct that video, but I was ready for it. How you doing, Dan? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I'm pretty good. I'm thankful to thankful to be with you and the times that we can get together and we can Talk about God's Word and learn together.

I learned from you and I appreciate the the iron sharpening that goes on and I'm just so thankful. Thank you guys for watching. We really appreciate your support. Will you continue to pray for us? This is truth and love podcast.

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Interpreting Revelation Through Old Testament Fulfillment

Yeah, as I mentioned, I thought tonight we would answer some questions from the book of Revelation. Meet me. I have been putting it out there in in certain places that I believe in a certain in times view which is the post-millennial view and Yes.

And so you're gonna get some um, you're gonna get some feedback sometimes you're gonna get some pushback from others and.

Unsolicited feedback, that's right. That's right.

You know and and I want to be obedient I think it's Peter that tells us to to be ready at all times to give an account give an answer. The hope is within you and and I want to be able to do that. But I of course, I don't have all the answers down pad and that's why I like Kevin Dan with me.

Yeah I'm sure you would admit the same thing we don't have all the answers, but Dan is able to fill in some of the gaps that that. That I don't have and I really appreciate that. But the guy that I was talking to having some questions about Revelation.

He really came from he was a little sporadic and and he was coming from three different places in Revelation. But it seemed like I didn't ask but it seemed like because of the way he was interpreting Revelation he was coming from the Dispensational pre-trib pre-millennial view.

It's just the way it come across and They they pride themselves and being the the more literal interpreters of the Bible of Revelation. And and we are I guess the more more liberal. The ones who see more of the symbols.

Symbology, I don't even know if that's a word symbolism symbolism, yeah. We see more the symbolism in Revelation. And so that they can cause some tension in conversations, but but I try to have those conversations in love.

But it's hard. It's hard when you. Like I was in that position as Dan and I were talking about earlier. I was in that position. In fact, it was the only in times view that I knew of knew that existed.

So, of course, I thought it was the biblical position. And so I would have interpreted. I would have argued in the same way and I asked Dan before the program. I said, I guess I'm looking for a shortcut.

I'm looking for an easy way out. What could I say or what could I do to help somebody. See that it's okay to give it a chance to interpret Revelation. The way that I'm interpreting just to Open their eyes or their ear to listen to what I have to say and then gave a good explanation.

Dan go ahead and share what you share with me and we'll look at some verses as an example.

Well, it certainly didn't end up being a shortcut because if you do everything that I told you to do It's gonna take a long time to get it done. That's true but it is Sort of It'll peak your interest pretty quickly.

I mean, there's a lot of work to do to uncover everything that I'm talking about. But but here we go. Here's what I was talking about I'll put together the two ideas of prophecy of Christ first and second coming and how they're interpreted in the New Testament and How we we understand them to be to have been fulfilled now when we look at the the prophecies in the the Old Testament of Christ first coming We see stuff that's sometimes symbolic sometimes not symbolic.

Sometimes there's very Specific detail sometimes it's a little bit more vague some of the stuff you you may You may not be able to Understand right away what's going on? If you're just reading it in the Old Testament You don't have any of the New Testament data to work with so Excuse me Excuse me again.

So So if you if you look at the the prophecies concerning Christ first coming you realize that just one After another after another after another happened exactly like it was laid out in the scriptures both symbolically and Literally, so the ones that were symbolic that you're like, I don't know this could mean this it could mean that when you see the Evidence put forth of what actually happened in Jesus historical life.

It lines up perfectly. Oh, okay I understand what that means. Now. I can I can take that to the bank. There was a great like in the was a Isaiah 9 since there was a great darkness and that the light came like, okay, that can mean a lot of different things.

There's great darkness at a lot of different points in time as a timeout. It would actually be in dark outside. It's gonna be cloudy for a long time. There's a spiritual darkness where people just don't know what's going on.

But then you look over in the book of John. It's a true light gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world and world was made through him yet. The world did not know him so you see Different things that were told in the Old Testament about the first coming all Came true in the second coming when you look at the historical data about what happened around those events now if you do the same thing with the Old Testament and mainly the New Testament prophecies of.

Well a lot of the New Testament prophecies. Not all of them. I say all of them you slap me because I'm being a heretic some of them the ones that aren't dealing with Christ's second coming was they're dealing with him coming in judgment or Something like that if you if you look at it from our perspective and you see things like the Olivet Discourse.

Which is Matthew 24 and a little bit 25. If you look at those things and you recognize them as being fulfilled in 70 ad. You know 66 or so through 70 ad same with the book of Revelation and in other Different passages to talk about those that sort of destruction if you line it up with the events that happened between 66 or so ad and 70 ad it lines up with the same exact specificity as We saw in the Old Testament.

So when you see the coming of Christ the first time symbolically for instance in the book of Daniel or Isaiah or especially Jeremiah. You look ahead in the New Testament you see hey. This makes sense this lines up with the Messiah coming at this certain time and in doing these certain things.

When you look at the prophecies concerning the end of the Jewish age from our perspective. And you line them up with the events that actually took place. Closer to the end of 66 or 70 ad they line up with the same Sort of Consistency.

What's really interesting is Matthew the book the whole book of Matthew. It's sprinkled throughout Matthew here was the prophecy in the Old Testament of Christ folks coming. And here's how the scripture fulfilled.

And it says that over and over and over again throughout the book of Matthew now you get towards the end of the book of Matthew and Jesus starts talking again about You Know his disciples ask him what's gonna happen to at the end of the age when is the temple gonna be destroyed.

And he gives them specific answers and in the same way it says That this is how the scripture was fulfilled. When you look at the events that come later it's identical one for one with the same amount of Specificity the it lines up perfectly with the events that happened later on.

Yeah, and you get plenty of examples so I don't have to give I don't have to give the examples that I was looking at a Matthew which you referenced and Another area that my work. That's it. No, it's okay.

What. Oh, I steal your thunder. No, no, no, no, no, no, it was Hailstones to talk about in a little bit. Absolutely.

Another passage like like Dan said, you know like Matthew Chapter chapter 2 verse 17 then what had been spoken through Jeremiah? So, you know, he's pointing back to the Old Testament and saying this is how you interpret that verse.

And I it brought me it brought to mind Isaiah chapter 53 where you know, there's some Some language there that's used that like you said concerning Matthew chapter 3 Verse 3 the voice one crying in the wilderness, you know, we understand that because of Matthew to be John the Baptist.

But as we were discussing earlier, the Jews are still looking for that to be the Messiah. Where we see in Isaiah fulfillment of that as Jesus, you know, they're still looking for the Messiah. But as a 53 uses language that You know just reading it at face value.

Not knowing any of the other context of the the rest of Scripture you you really wouldn't really know what they're talking about. And I was thinking about another another way that May help as a suggestion to to Maybe eat somebody into thinking about interpreting Revelation the way the way we do or in a different way To maybe loosen up that grip a little bit.

Yeah, I know one of the critique Depends on what kind of circles you you run in. I know one of the critiques that we give to the to the pre-trib pre-millennial dispensationalist. Is that they they in try to interpret the newspaper?

In light of Revelation or in light of the Bible, you know. They see what's going on in the newspaper and try to squeeze it in and make it fit into Scripture. But in another critique I would say and you know we often be guilty of but I would say another critique of Interpreting especially the book of Revelation Is is looking at it and interpreting it through?

The the lens of the day and time in which we live. So, you know when we see When we see, you know Sun Sun moon and stars falling you're you're muted there you go. Never mind Was unplugged. I.

Couldn't hear you nothing. Go on ahead really.

We're good. Well, what I was saying was maybe maybe another way or option to maybe help us loosen that grip. Maybe not at first Loosening the grip of their viewpoint on on Revelation interpretation, but that maybe it Easing their mind to be open to hearing how we interpret revelation is that and us and as I stated we all can be guilty of this, but The way I see that those that hold a viewpoint interpreting revelation is Looking at it through the lens of the day and time in which we live.

So when we see, you know words like Sun Moon and stars falling. The first thing that we think of it, you know. We go outside and we look up at the sky and we see the stars are still there. The third of the moon is you know, it's it's whole the third of the moon is not missing there's not a third of the world that's Been burned up or anything.

So it's got to be in our future because it it's still here this the stars haven't fallen. So we understand some of the language in light of how how we would interpret Reading material that's written in there our day and time.

But as Dan was describing. And and I think Claude even brought it up in in our last laborers podcast. It's we've got to know the context. We've got to know how the original audience would have understood it the the intent of the author and how he wrote it and As Dan mentioned, you know looking at Matthew and other portions of the New Testament.

They go back to the Old Testament to say this. This was written and fulfilled here. This is language that that we used to represent this event this kind of event happening. For example Judgment judgment language judgment type language, which we say in the New Testament.

So with with that being said you know, we won't we want to look at how language was used for the first coming prophecy was used there for the first coming and We kind of see that Similar thing going on in in Revelation and also, you know Realize that we can have a bias in how we interpret scripture take off our glasses and how we would Interpret scripture based on our current knowledge of Knowledge of our current language and dig in to how they would have understood the text and some of the Analogy some of the symbols that was going on.

So let's let's quickly look at those three different places that the gentleman I was having a conversation with Wanted to have answers for and the first one is Revelation chapter 8 verse 7 I believe it is it says the the first sounded and there came hail and fire mixed with blood and they were thrown to the earth and A third of the earth was burned up and a third of the trees were burned up and all the green grass was burned up so his his big thing was He goes outside a third of the earth or the earth is still intact a third of it's not gone so it's got to be in our future and so he He wants to take this literally.

So what what is your viewpoint on this passage of scripture.

There's a lot of background. Yeah get understood here. This is talking about the. This is talking about well our viewpoint overall. Is it the book of Revelation especially right here is talking about the 87.

It's how about the the events that surround the end of Jerusalem in 66 to 70 AD so These the idea of these trumpets trumpets it was lots of different things the this. When the Roman armies first came against Jerusalem it was during the Feast of Trumpets for one for Number two every time that there was a another battle or another skirmish that would take place.

There was a trumpet that was blown literally a trumpet that was blown that would signify that there was there was The Romans right again, they were coming to do something. Coming to take over something or build a siege wall or something of that nature.

Also. What's really important is that their symbolism? Intermixed with this that leads us back to the destruction of false religion. Here's what I mean by that it points back to the plagues that happened in the land of Egypt.

Remember they had the the water that turned to blood the Nile the stuff in the bowls the stuff that was Hanging out all of it turned to blood. Here we have blood. Then you see there was hail except for in the land of Goshen there was it was showing that the people of God would be saved from the the hailstones in in Egypt.

Now here I don't believe that that's so much literal hailstones literal blood. Well literal blood because there's blood being shed. But what's being thrown down upon them is great destruction destruction such as was seen in Egypt during this the destruction of the crops and the people who were outside when the hailstones fell.

Um. Now the people who were preserved from that were in the land of Goshen. There were the people who were called out and set apart. They weren't actually in the land of Egypt proper, but they were often the place with those who were who are called To be a part of the covenant people of God.

So here you also see those who had escaped. Who had run away who had no heated the warnings that there was coming a destruction? Who also left we're not going to be a part of receiving this judgment. So when it says a third of the earth was burned up and a third of the trees were burned up and a third of All the grass was burned up.

This is when the Roman Empire came in and they actually destroyed the land the trees and the grass. By fire, right and there was a great burning smoke rising up all over the city. There was destruction of crops and trees and animals and people who are outside and it was a lot of some people even point to the What they call it the the the blood as being The the blood basically saying because of you shed the blood of Christ upon the cross this is being visited upon you.

Mm-hmm. There's a bunch of different stuff. Oh, yeah a little bit. It also talks about a third in several different ways. Back into Ezekiel 13. Ezekiel 13 describes this event 13 13 through 14 Says therefore thus says the Lord God.

I will make a stormy wind break out in my wrath. There shall be a deluge of rain in my anger and great hailstones and wrath to make a full end. Now break down the wall that you have smeared with whitewash and bring it to the ground.

So this foundation will be laid bare when it falls you shall perish in the midst of it. You shall know that I am the Lord. Oh Yeah, right there so Part of this was the Romans building the siege works against the walls of Jerusalem where they would come destroy burn.

And this was the the end where? They would or this is the beginning of the end where God was going to bring down destruction upon The city of Jerusalem because of all that done.

Gotcha one of the things that I brought up with him was Understanding the context understanding the language and Understanding how they the original audience would have understood it. And and so You have to look at the context.

I understand that but when you look at the word earth and I think it's pronounced gay but in in the original language is GE and Maybe I think maybe it's pronounced gay, but it's spelled GE and so that can be translated also as land.

Yeah, and so one of the one of the arguments was This is going to be for the whole earth. It's gonna be for the whole earth. But if the context is is telling us that it's for for that specific localized area Then the translation should be or could be used as land to help us better, you know better understand that it's localized right.

We even use earth in that sort of way sometimes like we have big Equipment called earth movers. We're not talking about moving the entire planet come up picking up some dirt moving it from here to there so.

Same thing in English. That's right. That's right.

And we just need to understand Language and how it's used in our own bosses and that and another critique that come to my mind. And you know listen to you talk is that you you know, I'm I mentioned just a few minutes ago We we critique that viewpoint of Interpreting the newspaper and trying to squish what they see in the newspaper into the book of Revelation.

But but here's a critique and I think I have an answer for it. So I heard you and your explanation of Revelation chapter 8 here. You you brought up the Romans and you're saying, you know This represents when the Romans came and they were cutting down the trees Cutting on the grass and burning it and it was just smoke and fire everywhere.

And that was your interpretation. So but basically if there was a critique to that it may sound like Where you're just doing instead of interpreting the newspaper of 2022 you're interpreting the the newspaper of the first century and Pushing it into the scripture, but I'll give you a chance.

But my explanation of that Would be well, I'm looking at what Jesus says in Matthew chapter 24, and I'm looking at all the the key Texts that are speaking of when he says this is going to happen. You know, he says this is what you should look for.

But he also says this is when this is going to happen. And you can find that in Matthew chapter 10 Matthew chapter 16 Matthew chapter 23 and Matthew chapter 24, especially Verses 33 and 34 all these things must take place or will take place within this generation.

He says in chapter 23 these things will take place in in your generation. So we have a we have a time frame and so that's why I believe you know. It's okay for you know, Dan to look at the newspaper if you will the the first century and say That this is lining up with with that war with the Jewish war with that timetable between 66 and 70 AD and the things in history that happened because this is when Jesus said to look for it and so We're looking at we're looking for it then and that's what we see and that's how we can relate what the Romans did to Chapter like chapter 8 in Revelation.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Um.

One thing I can see somebody saying is okay. Well, maybe No, Matthew, then maybe the grant Matthew was dealing with 70 AD but Revelation doesn't say anything like that except that it does. You go to go to chapter 1 verse 1.

It tells you how you're supposed to read it. Revelation of Jesus Christ, which gave which God gave to show that word is really cool. It means to signify. To his servants signify or some it's going to be in symbols signs the things that must soon take place now couple that with the There's the words that Jesus spoke saying this generation will not pass away until all these things take place and then Jesus dies on the cross raises from the dead has risen up into heaven and then he goes up into heaven and Sends an angel a messenger back down to talk to John and tells him.

Hey, these things are the things are going to soon take place. Who's now said twice there are big events that are going to happen and they're going to happen soon. Yeah, so if we take all of that together Revelation I believe is speaking of the same events as we see in the Discourse down in Matthew 24.

He says that generation will not pass away. You look here says things that will soon take place now. Some people will say things are going to start to take place soon. But that they're going to take thousands of years to fully Complete themselves and I'll be honest with you I'd I don't see how you can stretch soon into an event that starts next week and runs for 2 ,000 years these things are going to take place soon.

He doesn't say the first part of what I say is going to take place soon. These things are going to take place soon. Yeah, listen to what I say the whole of it soon, right?

I've never seen that definition of soon in Greek or in English or Swahili. Exactly, you know. And he says the time is near and I'm a fellow partaker of the tribulation. So yeah, John John is just dropping.

Dropping neon signs everywhere. I was gonna say yes, but as neon signs really.

John did say his fellow partaker in the tribulation. So he's saying I'm here for it. That's right. No, he was there for the for the for the beginning parts, you know, because Jesus said no, there's wars and rumors of wars.

That's okay. It's just the beginning of it. But then you're gonna have these things happens and then we see that run so John's there for the birth pangs and the you know getting started and Get getting stuff rolling.

So I'm partnering that and here we go. Get ready. Hold on buckle up. That's right.

The Third Trumpet and the Fall of Jerusalem

Here goes the second one that he wanted to point out which I which I had to find Revelation chapter 9 which is similar. Yeah, verse 18 a third of mankind was killed by these three plagues by the fire and the smoke of the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

So he wanted to he wanted to save mankind. Um Meant The number out of the whole population of the world the earth the globe. And I Didn't quite see it that way. How do you see it? I.

Don't quite see it that way either the word there for mankind is Anthropos which could just be well right there anthropoid, which is the Plural form. It just means men. It can mean mankind means man or mankind.

So it'd be men or or mankind. So, I don't see I don't see any reason Make it could be translated that way, but it's one of those things that it should be translated Based on the context. So the only reason I said kind is because the person who came to it thought that I was talking about a global.

You know one-third of every human on the planet whereas I would say be one-third of the people who are there at the time of the Destruction when the when the plagues were visited upon them. Those who had followed the false God and rejected Christ.

I also think that the This this is the locust there are speaking of the Roman soldiers there are several times where they They did all sorts of stuff to him and It says we don't have time to get into it, but there's a really good a Really good case to be made that the word Angel in verse 11 It means messenger.

We're from the bottomless pit messenger from hell, basically. Whose name is Abaddon and Greek is called Apollyon is actually Titus Other room in general. It's a pretty good case being made there. So what you see and there were those times where it says that they couldn't hurt them or torment them for five months.

And there was a time where they couldn't do anything. They had to be called away or move, but they were still the people of Jerusalem were still trapped in Their spot. I mean they were still hungry besides stuff going on.

But they were tormented by these these Roman soldiers who are still around there watching them and at the end that protection that time where they couldn't touch them was Pulled off and they were just slaughtered massacred, and that's what the sixth Trumpet.

Yeah, six, so seventh trumpet is the one where it's over it's done complete so.

Well, I think you're exactly right. Context is is key context is key everywhere. But you know, especially here in this conversation context is is really keen and so important because you look at other places in Scripture Where this Greek word is translated as as men but Probably the same person that I'm talking to would would fully admit.

Okay. Yeah in that place. It's referring to Mankind men as in including encompassing men and women so you know you can use the word men as As including men and women or it can just mean it can just mean man here.

The same the same method of interpretation should take place. Look at the context. And and we you know, as I said before we're going back to to Jesus and Matthew 24 and John and looking at the timetable.

We want to look at the context. What is he talking about here? What what part what portion of mankind is he referring to and if we do that we will learn the meaning of The author here John what he meant by mankind by looking at the context and not just.

Yeah, it's also interesting this is the same chapter where people will go back a few verses and look at the description of the locusts and Say that they're helicopters, you know chapters I don't think that that does justice to if you remember from verse chapter 1 verse 1 things that must take place soon.

It would have to be something that the first century readers would understand. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Also, if you look down there in verse 20, it says the rest of man of mankind or the rest of the men Who were not killed by these places?

So who didn't die at that time and did not repent of their works the works of their hands, which was the killing of the Messiah. So as not to worship demons, which was the idols of gold and silver brass and stone and wood.

They were serving a false god of their own making not the God who had actually come in the flesh and been among them. They did not repent of their murders and sorceries and immorality and their thefts and it says that they They would die Because they would not repent they were there and all of that that stress and trouble.

And yet They did not repent. And from the the accounts that we have. Those who were inside the city did not repent of their sin. Didn't turn from didn't cry out to Christ for help. During this time, right kept on in their idolatry.

Until they met their end.

Yeah, and we can say all day long until we're blown to paste. Reading context. Reading context, but. What is the context. Well. You know Dan just showed it to us verse 20 and verse 21. It's screaming to us.

I'm speaking about a specific people. Not. Not all of mankind the whole of population of the whole globe. I'm speaking about a certain people and so there's the context that helps us understand Revelation chapter 9 verse 19 and 20 21.

Not while you're moving on to the next one. Let me bring something else up if you do put all of these things together and you have the Sun Moon and stars falling you have a third of the grass and the water burned up and you have a third of the fish dying and you have all the birds falling out and you have smoke and locusts and all these things if you stop to think of What would actually be left of the earth at that point?

Well first off if the Sun Moon and stars come and hit the earth. That's a wrap. That's it. Yeah, nothing left. So there's nothing to come after that. So, I mean even if you take this as being in the future That can't mean that the Sun Moon and stars are actually gonna fall out of the sky and fall to the earth because if they do That's a wrap.

That's it. There's no there's no reason to have the rest of the book of Revelation because it's over. So it has to mean something other than the literal Sun Moon and stars falling from the sky onto the earth.

And there's more stuff to come and it can't happen if everything's destroyed. And this is not.

Islands can't be away and mountains can't be found if if they're burned up already.

Exactly. Context context context. And that's that's the third scripture that he that he wanted to go to was Revelation 16 20. Every island fled away and the mountains were not found. He would say that this this has not happened.

But how could it happen if you take it literally and the earth is destroyed by the the falling stars. So that's I mean that's one part of the context just you know common-sense reading. Hey, what's the great city.

The great city. Exactly. The great city from my understanding would would be Jerusalem and the.

Jerusalem is also called Babylon. Mm-hmm. So you see here the great city was split into three parts and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God to give her the cup of wrath of his fierce wrath.

So, what does that mean? Means that the great city was split into three parts. It means that Jerusalem was shattered. That other nations around fell as well and that in the midst of the destruction of those nations Babylon or Israel was given her cup of wrath to drink.

So much so that you couldn't be on an island and escape and you couldn't go hide in the mountain and escape. Every island fled away. Do islands actually flee. No, but as an island usually a safe haven from from somebody trying to get you.

It usually is can you hide up in the mountains hole up in the mountains for long periods of time and escape your your captors? Absolutely, who was it the that dude is good caught out in Murphy the the Unabomber.

Yeah, he was caught out in Murphy, North Carolina and he holed up in in the mountains of North Carolina for a long time. Because you can get lost up there, but there's nowhere to run. There's nowhere to hide.

The judgment is coming and then look you got that huge Hailstones about a hundred pounds the same hailstones as you saw back in the other chapter and that you saw back in Exodus who are following on those who would not worship the one true God.

They came down from heaven upon men and then blasphemed God because of the hail. Instead of saying Oh God have mercy on us they Chose some expletives and tossed them towards God, you know, he gave hailstones.

They gave expletives. It's not a good. Not a good thing to do. Yeah.

And if you want to take this first a little more literally. With all this destruction going on, of course, it's gonna look like the islands have fled. Zero visibility and the mountains were not to be found.

Sure without with all the smoke and fire going on from the brimstone and. And even if the brimstone is is figurative language speaking of that, you know the destruction that the Romans brought on Jerusalem still yet.

You've got all this rubble fire smoke that creates zero visibility if you you know. What you want to take it a little more literally? One of the one of the critiques that he had in this conversation was there because my argument was revelation.

For the most part of revelation is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and he said that there's no islands in Jerusalem but what you have to understand is the. The scene in which this takes place is the Roman Empire.

Which is coming against Roman Rome and its allies are coming against Jerusalem to destroy Jerusalem. But but the scene that is taking place is happening within the Roman Empire and there are definitely islands within the Roman Empire.

You know, I was reading somewhere that There was recorded a massive earthquake that happened that actually moved the island of Crete at that time. So, I mean there's a lot of evidence to support what happened here in Revelation 16.

Um, and so I Think I was gonna say something else, but I forgot what it was. But um.