The Grinch Comes to California, Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:34

So we're gonna take phone calls today before we get started on the program It's another one of those.

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Oh, look what I just found on Twitter things at the start of the program The Soviet Socialist Republic of California has spoken as we all expected that it would

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Concerning holiday gatherings in the great state of California with a

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K and And Remember on last program we pointed out a peer -reviewed paper that has concluded that the mortality rate for COVID -19 for people under the age of 70 is 0 .05

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% For people under 70 h1n1 and standard flu is 0 .1

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% which is twice What COVID -19 numbers are below 70 and yet We have to keep the panic.

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We have to keep everybody masked up have to keep everything closed down. Well What you're gonna see and what you're seeing coming in Europe right now is the second full lockdown

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Which we we tried to say March it's a May June try to say in June.

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This will happen again in the fall it is for political reasons and it's coming again and The numbers are all against it despite the inflation of those numbers

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But despite all that California the real quick, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be quick about this But I need to talk about this because I'm distracted today.

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I'll be perfectly honest with you the things that I've been seeing about isolation camps in Canada MPs having their microphones turned off while trying to ask questions about this in Canada It can't help but distract you it's it's hard to not be distracted by this kind of insanity

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And then you have California. I don't know how you live there. I live way too close to it. I'll be perfectly honest with you

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I don't know what's gonna happen in the future along those along those lines but The State of California has released their guidelines and these aren't just guidelines.

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These are I Read them. I had the website up.

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Let me see if I can if I still have it here Did he? No, that's not the one

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I want. Give me the right window, please and it should be right here. Yeah California Department of Public Health And these are mandatory requirements for all gatherings

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Must comply with the following requirements. This is not these not suggestions. This is the state saying you must do this

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Let me break them down no more than three households can get can get together. I'm not sure how you exactly Determine that but three no more than three households

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For no longer than two hours No longer than two hours and You can't do it inside.

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It must be outside. So No more than three households. No more than two hours must be outside Everyone must wear their sign of submission to Big Brother also known as a face diaper

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And of course you must stay the magical six feet apart So that means you're gonna throw your

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Christmas presents to your kids Six feet apart or at least if it's like your cousin that's different household

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Then you you throw the presents at each other because you can't get any closer than six feet any direction from one another

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Are you ready for this? Food should be in single serving containers

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You heard me correctly Food should be in single serving containers

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Yeah, good luck with that one I yeah, okay and No singing

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No chanting and No exertion this is the state of California about a disease with a 0 .05

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mortality rate under the age of 70 And I keep saying that because we it's the it's the hypocrisy it's the we've never done this with anything else

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There are worse diseases, this is not the plague, but these are how

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Marxists create unhappiness and division and this is

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California and If what happened if what the polls say are gonna happen

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On November 3rd takes place. This will be the entire United States because California is a one -party state

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Are there Republicans California sure do they have any role and what happens California? Nope Not a shred not a bit once the leftists take over they change the rules so they can never lose power again and That's what's gonna happen.

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That's what's gonna take place When you have two new states added to the

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United States both That brings in four Democratic senators that way they've always got the

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Senate get rid of the filibuster Pack the court the real pack the court not the Wow. I mean, there is nothing that can't be redefined today, right?

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So now packing the court everybody always know everyone has known since FDR what packing the court meant

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Now it's been redefined So if you actually fill the ninth justice According to the

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Constitution that's now called packing the court A Absolutely astonishing.

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So you pack the court so you don't have the Constitution to To worry about any longer and it's done.

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It's done. We literally literally literally are a matter of weeks away from burying the

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Constitution United States done finished and as I said on Facebook this morning and Doug Wilson said it in an excellent

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Blog and may blog article that he did. I don't know less than a week ago I think it was called nine miles a bad road or something like that But he said what we're voting

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About on November 3rd is whether we will ever vote again That's what it is

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Because if you vote for socialism, that's it. That's your last vote. You now have it and As it has been said over and over again because it's true

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You vote socialism in You shoot to get out of it You don't vote it out.

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You never have that opportunity again. Socialists do not allow themselves to lose power. Look at California and That's what we're facing so every one of you over at TGC and and and ERLC and all you guys doing all you can to salve people's consciences so they can vote for Baby murder and Transgenderism and the profaning of marriage and and just say well it that's just the same as social programs all you folks over there.

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Hey Once you no longer can do anything at all you once you no longer have any rights you vote them away and you did it purposefully and You did it with the rest of us trying to yell and scream and jump up and down say don't you see what you're doing

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Not that's gonna make us feel any better be able to go we told you so But we will tell you we told you so We told you so so there you go.

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I am going to tell you right now. I'm going to try to make sure we have many more than three households to get together for Thanksgiving and Christmas if We are not in the middle of street warfare at that particular point in time, which is possible

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We're gonna go a lot longer than two hours all kids want to go longer than two hours So we're gonna especially on Christmas We're gonna be inside and outside because in Phoenix, it'll probably be cool given this year.

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It'll probably about 84 Set all new records. Why not? I mean, it's 2020.

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We've we've shattered almost every single heat record to be had but we're gonna we're gonna be inside and In in where wherever I am if it's my family and I am currently the oldest person in my family in the valley, which means

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I'm in charge and That means any face diaper that even walks to the door will be burned instantly.

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I'm just telling you right that right now No face diapers will be allowed. I'm putting my foot down. That's it.

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No face diapers. There will be hugging There will be hugging and and there will be more hugging than Scottish people should be allowed to do

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But we're gonna do it because William Wallace would do it if he was told not to do it And if my

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Claymore stabs you in the side just tough it out. You'll you'll be alright Food should be in single -serving containers.

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Nope. We're gonna have a big old single bowl of My dad's dressing it won't be my dad's dressing

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It's never as good as my dad's dressing, but I've gotten close a few times But it's gonna be one big single bowl with all the super good buttery extra crispy stuff on the top and There will be no single -serving containers allowed none at all and no singing chanting or exertion we are going to run around like a bunch of Pentecostal charismatics and exert ourselves horribly and We are going to sing we might even learn to chant just simply to break that one, too

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And we will sing and chant toward the California border Just to make sure

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Yes, sir So I'm in Home Depot the other day in the garden department and I look over and I see a picture of a lady and she's

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Gardening she's got her gardening tools out in her gardening gloves on you know what she's wearing as she's facing this plant a

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Mask a mask and probably a face shield and gowns and booties and has three bottles of hand sanitizer nearby

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Because we don't want to give it to the plant. It's enough to make you believe in the black helicopters it really

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We have seen the black helicopters, but that's because we're in Arizona, and there's lots of airspace around here

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So that's pretty much the reason for that, but you can go I'm looking at the website, California Department of Public Health Under COVID -19

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CDPH guideline guidance for private gatherings and I Don't I don't

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I? Don't know what to say, but hey you guys Let's let's take some phone calls

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Let's talk to Devante hello Devante Hello, how are you today doing good?

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Well? I'm here I Thought about that question as soon as I just realized

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I just listened to you talk about what you did for 10 minutes So recently

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I have been studying Roman Catholicism and You have been a very tremendous help, and I'm just looking for If you hear something in the background,

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I'm sorry. That's my son Well we at Apologia Church We are a family integrated church, and what we like to say is that if children make age -appropriate

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Vocalizations that's perfectly fine My wife taking them to the back

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I'm looking in your talks You will often just like mention like like Primary sources from Roman Catholic Catholicism like you talk about You know canons at the fourth

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Lateran Council, or you're talking about the Pseudo Isidore in the credos Which I had never heard of Or or you're talking about you know certain people like William Whitaker who wrote about Roman Catholicism Yep, and my question is just can you give me any?

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resources contemporary or You know for my brothers and sisters who are no longer here that address

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Roman Catholicism because specifically like You know like major Doctrines that Roman Catholics currently believe in for example like their view on You know tradition authority and the magisterium or they're what they teach on purgatory or indulgences or or something like that I know you have a book.

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I haven't gotten it well I used to and I don't know if you're watching or not, but I used to be able to just sort of hold this up the

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Catechism the Catholic Church and Say all right. This is a good starting place. It has some references that the problem is

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Even when this was produced You already had such a wide variety of Viewpoints being expressed by What is called the magisterium of the church?

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that this is one that this is one of the toughest things to deal with is you have just as wide if not a wider range of Perspectives and understandings expressed by people who are even regularly attending a

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Roman Catholic Church as You have in Protestantism. You really do I mean,

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I've often said that if you listen, for example to EWTN You're gonna be getting primarily very conservative old -style

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Roman Catholicism from most of those types of people you go over to Boston College and Listen to the priests teaching at Boston College and you'll hardly even recognize a connection between you two on the fact they're using the same words, they clearly mean completely different things and So the the problem is to be able to identify

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You know, basically what I would say is if you look back into the 1850s maybe up through the the first Vatican Council and You look at some of the plain

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Clear language that was used by Popes at that time and in like the papal syllabus of errors

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And and that's one of the most useful documents and again all this is available online Papal syllabus of errors the catechism

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Catholic Church is at the Vatican website. They're all available for free But if you read something like the papal syllabus of errors

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That is extremely useful because it's laying out what the church at that time was saying was wrong in What other people were saying and that's that sometimes can be extremely helpful

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It's sort of like reading Isaiah 40 to 48 Where the prophet is going after the false gods you learn a lot about the true

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God By the way, the true God's prophets go after false gods because they compare and contrast true against false

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Same thing with the papal syllabus of errors what you look at what the Popes were teaching then You trace that back through history and That can become sort of a lens through which to read what came before and and you find a consistency there

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There's there's a consistent Body that goes back to about the fourth ladder in Council there.

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I mean sure there's some development over time Yeah, but there's there's a core there I don't see that core in the current

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Pope. I really don't I don't see that core in a number of the archbishops the

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Cardinals Especially the people that Francis is putting positions of authority. I don't see that core in the in the papal

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Biblical Commission and so you've got a really wide variety of Perspectives and and beliefs being presented the universal catechism can still give you, you know a general idea but There was a significantly out called a significantly tighter

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Interpretation of that catechism from the time it came out through Ratzinger's pontificate and now with Francis, it's it's all over the map and So it's one thing to go back and say, okay the fourth ladder and Council said this and we can tell because of what people were saying at the time because of You know

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We have the writings of the of the of the bishops that that attended that Council and how they interpreted things

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You can go back and go. Yeah, this is this is what they meant. This is what they were saying It's it's pretty straightforward, but the problem with having

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You know, it's sort of like years ago. I remember criticizing Roberts and Janice about something and I pointed out that he seemed to be out of touch out of step with maybe the current

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Bishop of Rome or whoever was which he is on a few things and His his response when

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I pointed out contradictions between what the church had taught what it teaches now is But James only the church can interpret the church

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So in other words that the current living Voice is the final authority because they can only they can interpret what the church has taught in the past even if they interpret it in the exact opposite way of the original people who wrote the words so it becomes a

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Chameleon it can become whatever it wants when you adopt that kind of a of a idea of authority

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So it doesn't it doesn't really help at all. So It's as you mentioned some of the books like by George Salmon the infallibility of the church

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William Whitaker's works things like that. Those are older works and they interact with the Roman Catholicism of their day

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That's also helpful in being able to see how Rome has changed since that time period as well

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Though let's be honest any Opposition to Rome could have bias in it as well

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We're not going to claim some type of absolute perfection for even books that we found very useful but in general still

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What you what you see is a huge amount of development So when you're talking to Roman Catholics, you got to find out where they are

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Where do they stand in this spectrum? And how do they interpret these things and it can make it very very challenging to be able to have a meaningful doctrinal conversation with someone

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Because is this a is this a conservative? Believing Orthodox.

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No, I'm not with Francis I'm just sort of enduring him because he's gonna go away eventually and I'm just gonna continue to hope and pray

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That the next guy that gets in will be chosen by God and will take us back to where we're supposed to be type perspective or what if the guy that what if Francis resigns and You get a you get a a third living

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Pope Who is to the left of Francis? Now, what do you do?

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That really I think is what keeps a lot of Roman Catholic apologists up at night in a cold sweat

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Because Francis had been enough of a disaster if Francis were to resign and somebody else were to come in Who is even farther that direction

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Wow, but you also have the other problem is what if he resigns?

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Because the precedent has now been set in modern times with with Ratzinger resigning what if he resigns and The next guy is a knee -jerk reaction back to the direction

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What does that do to the whole idea of having an infallible leader to whom you can look for consistent?

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Interpretation and an understanding of Catholic truth. So it's a It's a it's a difficult day for Rome on that level

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I I've wondered if that might not be part of the reason why we're hearing more and more about Eastern Orthodoxy is

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You always have people Who have been raised within Protestant churches? who don't know anything about the other side and and they they get burned or they get tired of Their church experience and all of a sudden they discover that the ancient church standing in the mists of time and The problem is right now

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That ancient church if you're a Roman Catholic has a very very very very very modern sounding head who's pretty much just a

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Marxist and Clearly does not believe what the

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Pope's before him believed on all sorts of all sorts of issues Let alone 150 years ago, but I mean there's differences clearly between he and Ratzinger so that's

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Maybe maybe why there's a little bit more attention being paid toward Eastern Orthodoxy so So yeah, it's a changing situation.

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That's that's that's the problem You can't it would be sort of foolish to write much in the way of in -depth books responding to Francis right now

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He's not gonna be around all that long And and who's gonna come up next where they're gonna be coming from it's it's it's hard to say so the historical works, like I said, the universe cats catechism has a

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Companion volume that I don't think I have in the studio here but there's a there's a companion volume that goes along with it that has all the documents that are cited in this and so that would give you a

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Whole bunch of the stuff right there and then there are bibliographies that you can follow from there Right there.

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I don't know if I don't remember if that volume is available electronically or not because I've had it in paper for so Long, I've never really looked but it might be it's possible

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I think it's called a compendium of documents cited in the Universal Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church or something something along those lines

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But there's lots of lots of good resources to be found along those lines. So is that is that helpful at all?

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Brother it is I've owned and it's just been First reading at times when um

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When reading or dialoguing with some Roman Catholic right

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Just because of certain to be honest, which I've told them I feel like many times

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The the basis of the argument is pretty much essentially even if they don't say it is because the church says

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Yeah, even if that's not for example, I was talking with someone who was Roman Catholic and he asked me

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Well, why do you believe the Bible? And I said well ultimately Because the

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Holy Spirit regenerated my heart and told me that is true But we could talk about philosophy or logic or something.

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He said well, that's very subjective. So I said, okay You're telling me that's too subjective.

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What should what should I have said? And I honestly feel like what he wanted to say was insert something about the church, but he didn't say that He said well,

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I'm not sure. I was like, well if you're gonna tell me that that what I said was too subjective

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I think you have something in mind. I think you just don't want to say it to be honest Well, yeah, if you listen if you listen to EWTN the thing that strikes you when you listen to Catholic radio

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Catholic television I don't do it a lot But I do it once in a while just to sort of see who's Getting as old as I am and and there are a lot of guys out there that are that are you know?

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Up in in my years now that I engaged with years and years ago But what you the one thing that strikes you immediately is how much more often you will hear central to the conversation

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Basically a conversion to the church. And so the church says this and the church says that that's what's problematic right now because what the church said in the 1990s is not what the church is saying in 2020 and That's the problem when

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I first started doing Roman Catholic apologetics John Paul II had been Pope forever I mean he had a long pontificate and that provided a consistency a level of consistency

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I mean I even during that time pointed out that one year he'd say something liberal in a encyclical the next year

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He'd throw a bone to the kids of the Conservatives and it was very clear He was trying to keep a very widely divergent group sort of headed to general same direction but you had one guy and So it wasn't while it wasn't a wild and crazy ride, but that is that has now changed and it's but you'll hear that centrality of the church not in the sense of the universal

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Church of history, but the church as it is embodied in Rome as Being the final answer to many of those questions, and I think you're correct in recognizing that so But anyways, check out the

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Universal Catechism the the the compendium that goes with it That's gonna give you a good solid foundation for a lot of the foundational documents.

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You're looking for. Okay? Yes, sir. Thank you very much.

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Thank you down there in Texas one of the land of the free down there Hopefully stay that way All right.

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God bless. Bye. Bye. All right I See that line two is a problem

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So I'm think I'm supposed to go to line three next and let's talk with Ryan also in the land of the free

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We're all hoping you all are gonna hold on down there because we may all have to flee there

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I I hope you got I hope you got some room for us Hello, yes, sir

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Yes, I'm Thrilled to be able to talk to you I'm a huge fan and I think for what you do and I've read your books and all and I Wanted to I wanted to ask about a video that I saw like a month ago or so.

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It was posted About like a few years ago. It's a goodbye a guy named Vatican Catholic calm and it was titled

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Protestantism's big justification lie And I watched Like half of it the first half of it and he tried to argue

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From Titus 3 5 it says that he saved us not on the basis of these which we have done in righteousness but according to his mercy through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the

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Holy Spirit and his Argument there was that it says that since justification includes the washing of regeneration or renewal by the

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Holy Spirit that refutes the idea that Regeneration and justification are distinct and therefore you have the

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Catholic view and I know that there's something wrong with that But I couldn't like how would you respond to that? Yeah.

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Well, I I would suggest looking up Titus 3 5 at a Omin org I'm fairly certain that I am remembering correctly the fact that Rich check this out for me.

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My recollection is a brother Porter wrote an article on the exegesis of Titus 3 5 in that context at some point in the long distant past and Titus 3 5 has not changed

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Whatsoever. I should mention while rich is looking at that that the particular video that you're looking at is from a aberrant

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Non -orthodox Roman Catholic group they All right, they're off on their own they're their own little popes and There is

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I do know a extensive discussion between myself and I think there's

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I think they're called the diamond brothers or something like that and yeah, and Brother John Mary, I think was was the guy that I had the interaction with it was fairly extensive

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And it's still in the Roman Catholic archives on the website. And yes Okay, so you if you look up not by works at all at a

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Omin org, you'll find a Article and it was I right was it Mike?

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By Mike Porter who's was a student of mine years and years ago. What are you laughing about?

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Okay, so this is from 20 years ago So brother

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Mike still with us but That that'll give you a longer more in -depth exegesis as far as Titus 3 goes but these guys are

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I My recollection is that in my exchange this is well over 20 years ago that I had the initial exchange

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My recollection is that they might even be have a phoenite strain to them I'm not sure if you know what phoenia phoeniasm is but To where they do not believe that anyone who is not a

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Roman Catholic can possibly be saved which has historical precedent obviously But goes against the modern

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Roman Catholic understanding of these particular things. So their doctrine or justification is not going to be consistent even with Ratzinger or John Paul II I'm not even

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I mean, it's really easy to say so I could be consistent with Francis because Who knows what his doctrine of justification is, but looking to Titus chapter 3 just very briefly

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But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared He saved us gonna move my

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Bible program over here What yeah, yeah, brother

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John Mary that'll pull it up. Yeah, I said not and so God our

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Savior verse Verse 4 OOC ex

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Ergon not by works The done which were done in righteousness, which we did in righteousness but according to his mercy, so you have

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OOC and Allah in the original language producing a contrast not in this fashion that is works done in righteousness, which we've done in righteousness, but According to his mercy.

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He saved us and then dia is the mechanism That he utilizes which is loo true pollen gonna see us so there is the washing of regeneration

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Chi and Renewing by the Holy Spirit. So my assumption is what they do is

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They make the argument that that is a human Action that it flows from the action of human beings free will doing baptism in a sacramentally appropriate fashion

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The problem is that you'll notice that his continuing statement

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The whatever the washing regeneration is it is intimately connected with the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

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This is a spiritual action Whom when the Holy Spirit is mentioned whom he poured out upon us plucio's richly

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Through Jesus Christ our Savior in order that having been justified by his grace

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We might be made errors according to hope of eternal life. So as is always the case with sinful mankind and as always the case in post

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Tridentine as post Council of Trent really post fourth Lateran Council Roman Catholicism You no longer have a a true biblical view of man

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It took it took a long time to get rid of all of Augustine's Influence as far as seeing man is dead in sin and so on and so forth

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The entire entire sacramental system of the Roman Catholic Church assumes man's capacity to cooperate by free will now they may throw in prevenient grace the more

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Augustinian they are but Prevenient grace is that biblical grace and prevenient grace is is not God's grace.

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It's uh, it's it's it's an idea meant to Cobble together man's free will in light of the

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Bible's teaching of man's deadness and sin so the point is that the identification that is made is you have to read into Titus chapter 3 the idea that you have a sacramental freewill act

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That is being described by the phrase Lutru Palingenensias the washing of regeneration

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Chi and Renewing of the Holy Spirit Now I'm again.

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I'm sure that Mike expanded upon this in in the article I recall it was a fine article, but that is not a disjunctive

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Chi. That is a conjunctive Chi That is you cannot say well the washing regeneration is infant baptism done in the name of the

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Trinity And then the renewing of the Holy Spirit is something completely different Because we all know in Roman Catholicism that the idea is that when you are validly baptized you are justified and Your sins are forgiven

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And we all know that the regular experience of Roman Catholicism in regards to that is

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That they have a bunch of totally unregenerate people who think they've been regenerated there's there's no renewal of the

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Holy Spirit Look at where the same author Paul Talks about the renewing of the

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Holy Spirit in Colossians chapter 3. What is the result of that and Did he in Colossians chapter 3 attach that to some sacramental performance?

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He did not Instead what you have which is consistent with Pauline theology is that the washing regeneration the background of that Goes back to chapter 2 in Titus Where you have?

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This incredible statement. Actually, it's barely. What is this? What maybe three sentences earlier four sentences or 213 looking for well backing up here

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If you want to look at verse 11 for the grace of God has appeared bring salvation to all men Instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and live sensibly righteously and godly in the present age

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Looking for the blessed hope in the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself to redeem us

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From every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people for his own possession zealous for good deeds now

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Not going into all the details here Here Paul is drawing from Old Testament language about Yahweh's forming of a special people a covenant people for himself and now he attaches it to Yahweh coming in the person of Jesus Christ who describes our great

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God and Savior Jesus Christ and How he gave himself for us to do what?

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to redeem us from every lawless deed and to Purify for himself a people for his own possession

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Zealous for good deeds. So this is his work. This is Yahweh's work and this grace that is introduced in verse 11

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Teaches us how to live sensibly how to deny ungodliness worldly desires to live sensibly righteously and godly in the present age

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This is all coming from God. There is no sacramentalism here There is no system that developed hundreds of years later here

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This is God forming a people for himself and in chapter 3 the continuation of that is simply

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It's the Spirit of God who raises us to life. He is the one who regenerates us

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He is the one who brings this to reality in our life and therefore having been justified by grace not grace channeled through sacraments

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But grace that is powerful to actually accomplish what it intends to accomplish that's the difference you're really touching here upon the difference between biblical

38:04

Christianity and The shadow that is Roman Catholicism that fundamentally robs the gospel of its power because of its emphasis upon sacramentalism and The control that mankind has of the grace of God by his own will through sacramentalism.

38:22

That is really As I said in the Roman Catholic controversy, this is the issue.

38:28

The issue is the gospel between us and Rome there's all sorts of other issues Mary and the Pope and things like that, but what what creates the dividing wall that must be dealt with as much as we wish it wouldn't be there as much as we would love to hold hands and Fight for the same things because we share so much in common

38:49

If you don't share this in common, you don't share the rest in reality, that's the problem

38:54

That's the problem is that very issue. So there you go All right

39:01

Well, I would say that That answers it and I I'll go and take a look at that article

39:06

You said to just look up not by works at all on nail not by works at all.

39:12

And then also a brother Just put in John Mary And those are two those are two different articles yet the one is a very lengthy

39:22

I had more time Or I didn't sleep as much or something or I typed faster I'm not sure but it was a very lengthy exchange with that same group that eventually put that that particular video

39:35

All righty. Um, well, thank you very much. Dr. White. I appreciate it Okay, keep the lights on the doors open for us down there in Texas in case we have to flee your direction

39:44

Hey, yes, sir, we'll do. All right. Thanks. God bless. All right Man I hate having to say that but it's really true.

39:54

Oh Okay, all right, so let's talk with Chris I Chris How you doing?

40:01

Dr. White? So my question is This is a kind of a thing that came out maybe a year year and a half ago

40:10

Two years of you know, you may not have read it much into it But that's fine, but it's on if you've heard of 1689 federalism.

40:18

Mm -hmm. It's a it's a covenant theology position And so I was gonna ask if you had known anything about it read

40:24

Sam Rinehan had written a book And a couple of the guys that I will respect Jim Rinehan and Richard Box Wallace.

40:32

These are some really good guys I met him, you know, great Saints and benefited greatly from their work and their ministry but I was wondering if you had know anything about that or read anything on it and It differs a lot on the course of the traditional position of covenant theology whereas, of course, we're different from the

40:51

Presbyterian position of the order the administration of the ordinances and things like that but I was wondering if you knew anything about that or If you had read it and thought anything about it and want to see your take on it

41:05

Yeah, I've I've actually avoided it for a couple reasons I was introduced to it in the worst possible way a young man

41:11

Who had started reading on it? Well, I was an elder in Reformed Baptist Church for a long period of time before I ever even heard the the terms so it came about from a

41:26

A Revitalized interest in the writings of the framers of the 1689 and the conclusion on the part of many

41:40

That the position that they took was not the position that Reformed Baptist had been taking basically this entire century and that in fact in essence their

41:55

From their perspective The position that Certainly, I had been taught and that I had been taking and that every

42:03

Reformed Baptist that I knew up until only 2010 maybe maybe even later than that but somewhere around in that time period

42:13

I I'd never even heard of any other perspective amongst Reformed Baptist, but the idea now is

42:20

That wasn't the position of the framers Okay The way it was presented to me at the time was that Abraham was in the

42:32

New Covenant and that all the elect are in fact in the

42:37

New Covenant and that that's sort of a If you if you know all of the arguments that go back and forth on minutia in regards to No way at covenants and Abrahamic covenants and Mosaic covenants and How all of them relate to one another and how they come into the the

43:05

New Covenant and what fulfillments are and obviously a lot of it has to do with What was the nature of circumcision?

43:14

Circumcision is a part of what covenant? How the covenant promises map on top of each other how they become fulfilled in Christ and it's

43:22

Incredibly complicated and to be honest with you pretty much every book. You're going to read is

43:29

Going to have its own flavor as to exactly where it comes down on a tremendous number of secondary issues that honestly, there are deep dark

43:41

Facebook groups that That people spend their entire lives arguing over the very small minutiae of Exactly how to map all those things out, but basically

43:56

At that time I was like well, you know The way that was presented to me

44:02

Anyways, I said if that's the case then the writer the Hebrew the writer the Hebrews missed it The biggest argument he ever could have made for the supremacy of the work of Christ and I I don't get that and Because then nothing and I I fault myself for this but because of the arrogance and immaturity of the person that presented it to me and The way he did it.

44:27

I was just like I'm just not even interested in okay I'm just I'm just I'm not even gonna stick my nose and in that I asked at the time

44:35

I asked my fellow elders in a church. Have you guys heard anything? They're like never heard Brand -new to us.

44:42

Okay doesn't make it wrong and I suppose

44:47

When I get thrown the who scowl in the not -too -distant future Maybe I'll have time to read up on it

44:54

If if you're allowed to read books in the who scowl and so I'm not saying that I'm gonna

45:02

Arrange a debate on it because I don't know enough about it to debate it. I just Know that the first thing that struck me as I Listened to it.

45:16

It the first thought across my mind was just this When you are a

45:22

Baptist, well, let me back up the truck one more one more time Are you familiar with New Covenant theology,

45:33

I'm sorry Yes Okay That to me was a reaction to The Presbyterian understanding of Covenant theology from people who are reformed and have reformed commitments and Yet it was an overreaction.

45:56

It was It was there. There's always a desire to Clearly distinguish your position when you're in the minority

46:08

From the majority position because it's easier for you to convince people to join your group when it's clearly differentiated where you agree and where you disagree and so From my perspective the

46:22

New Covenant guys were out of balance. I mean became really out of balanced when you had people saying

46:29

Everything has to be repeated in the New Covenant. And so You know since there's no prohibition against marrying your sister.

46:36

You can marry your sister I mean, that's when it goes whoosh right off right off the cliff, but but it was moving that direction

46:44

Because of the fundamental assumptions that were being made. So in other words good people can overreact to a majority position and What struck me is if you've got an argument that would be that killer

47:02

Why Isn't it used in Scripture and So what struck me is I've always got to be aware of the fact that even those that I identify with and and and I'm so thankful for and learn so much from can sometimes

47:17

Pull a little hard on the tug -of -war rope and maybe become a little imbalanced

47:26

I Haven't seen any reason As of yet to Abandon the arguments that I've made in the past in regards to such issues as baptism

47:35

Maybe since I'm gonna be doing a series on baptism over the next number of months at Apologia Maybe that will give me the opportunity you know, maybe

47:47

I can get Richard or somebody to send me a 15 page paper that I can digitize and and look at and Maybe what was presented to me was just presented me so poorly and so badly that maybe there's something there but that's that's where I've I've been and Fault me for You know being willing to to say hey since it was presented me so badly

48:18

I'm not gonna waste my time on it that I could be faulted for that. But that's that's been my experience

48:27

Books are being written every day and to keep up with the ones who have written and are now gone and the ones that are continuing to be put forth is

48:35

It's a very difficult thing. So no, but I sure appreciate your your way in on that. Thank you. Dr.

48:40

Why not? Yeah, well, obviously I Would hope that it would not be something that would result in some kind of Division though,

48:52

I'll be perfect honest with you The fact that Reformed Baptists are still Baptists means we can divide over almost anything

49:00

And that's not a good thing. That's not a good thing. So anyway, thanks All right,

49:07

God bless bye -bye All right. I'm not trusting line two. I'm I'm hoping because you've had problems with the let's hope that it that it works here

49:15

Let's talk about let's talk with Michael hi Michael Michael Hello, Michael See What is wrong with what is wrong with long line two?

49:29

We're trying to talk to Michael in Florida and Now rich is picking up the the line to see if he can talk to Michael in Florida as well and We got nothing.

49:43

Oh I've got a green green light now, maybe oh Okay All right well, if You want to you want to free up one line and see if Michael can call back in Michael if you can give us a call back in Rachel will un un busy a line

50:04

Because we've still got ten minutes. So if Michael would like to call back in We've got a got to call right now, this is not how it's like We're actually we're actually talking about for the program they're gonna have to replace this phone system, which we've had for 47 million years and You know why because they're dropping flash and it's based on flash and evidently it's called comrec stack and evidently, they're not going to Update it.

50:32

They're not there. Well, okay, they're gonna do it all pro. They're gonna do what everybody in software does today

50:38

I don't know if you've noticed it But like I was trying to nobody saw the little video that I made I am the world's worst marketer.

50:44

I did this video With Seb Goldswain's music in the background and and I put a lot of time into it on Suffering and first Corinthians of nobody's seen it.

50:56

I put it on my own Maybe because I put it on my own YouTube thing. So put on the dividing line one. Maybe that's what we need to do but And I dropped it

51:06

I think on Friday night, which I guess is the worst time to drop I I should learn from politics not to do that But if you get a chance look that up I did put it on the theology matters micro blog

51:18

And hopefully it'll be useful to to folks. But the point was that the software program

51:23

I was using to make that I Had purchased it Now you can't purchase those software programs.

51:29

You have to buy them for a year It's the subscription thing and maybe some of you are too young and that's all you've ever seen

51:36

But back in the olden days you actually bought a program and some companies actually updated it once in a while, too

51:43

All right. Let's talk with Michael Michael you there Yeah, I'm there. All right. There you go

51:49

Yeah, sweet. Well, thanks for having me. Um, so I had a question You had mentioned

51:57

Calvin saying that Jesus is I'll talk they are mm -hmm, right and Now in when in my learning more about the

52:07

Trinity and things like that, thanks to you actually Challenging Evangelicals to get in it and learn

52:17

Learn about eternal generation and one of the things that I found to be somewhat difficult at times was not falling into Jesus getting his

52:31

Godness From the father like rather than he's lesser

52:38

So, how do we how do we and I pull up it was John 5

52:45

John 5 20. I just had it on my Bible app

52:51

John 5 26 for the father has life in himself and he has granted the son also to have life in himself.

52:59

How do we Have the truth that Jesus is

53:06

Eternally generated but hold also to Calvin His as you would say his strong Fighting for Jesus being

53:16

God of himself Well Calvin recognized that the post

53:23

Nicene Development in Christology Tended toward the possibility of subordination ism and I think he was right about that and Yet at the same time there are others that would say but the relational aspect between father and son has to be recognized in light of Jesus's own words or Teachings like John 5 whatever it might be.

53:59

And so how do you maintain that balance? And of course back in 2016 I think is when the eternal subordination of the

54:07

Sun issue exploded And there was you know, all sorts of books being written and a lot of people were making the argumentation that the way to avoid

54:19

The eternal subordination of the Sun is through a strong emphasis upon the eternal generation of the

54:26

Sun and yet at the same time a lot of the folks were emphasizing that really

54:31

I looked and I may have missed it because I didn't

54:37

I Wasn't getting up at each morning going. Oh, I wonder what new has been published about on the subject, but I wasn't seeing a lot of people

54:48

Recognizing the need that Calvin saw of emphasizing Jesus as Altaf a us

54:56

God in and of himself by nature now part of this because it seems to me that a lot of current

55:03

Trinitarian discussions within Western culture are not done with an eye to Taking this message outside of the

55:16

Academy. In other words, there is a Anti -apologetic mindset amongst many people

55:23

Apologists for lots of good reasons are often Dismissed from the

55:29

Academy as being imbalanced it's it's almost it's almost the myth of neutrality has invaded the thinking of many theologians in the idea that You have to be pliable to Allow the possibility of your position being in error

55:49

Like Talking about say a certain biological theory or something like that.

55:54

You have to apply that the theology as well. And so apologists are seen as being hard -nosed or not truly scholarly or not really willing to follow the

56:04

Facts to the end and and things like that. And so I I didn't see much in the way of an emphasis on their part on Safeguarding the reality of Jesus's eternal existence as God as Altaf a us and So, how do you maintain that balance?

56:31

Well first I would point out then in in John chapter 5 That context of having life in himself, that's that's in the

56:40

In the context and he gave him authority to execute judgment because he is a son of man. So I would

56:47

I would really hesitate to try to utilize that to cast light back upon Non -economic relationships between the father and the son in other words

57:01

It would seem to me that in John chapter 5 What is what is being?

57:07

discussed here Is the role that the son has as the representative of the father as the one who can give life

57:16

Who will judge? that's all in the context of theology and economic

57:22

Trinity and revelatory Categories and things like that Most the time the problem we do have is we are primarily limited to Economic Categories in biblical revelation and we're trying to to cast just a little bit of light out of our own understanding back too long before we came into existence and sometimes

57:51

I think we if God wanted us to have that kind of light that he would have given us that kind of light and and This may be one of those places where remember it's it's

58:03

Calvin who said we're where God makes an end of speaking we must make an end of speaking and I've given the example many many times before of the contrast between Calvin and Edwards at that point because You know,

58:18

I think Calvin was certainly Edwards is equal in mental capacity and ability to speculate and formulate and and theologize but Calvin Refused to do so in many areas

58:33

That Edwards did not refuse do so and as a result Edwards got himself into some

58:40

Real hard binds especially in regards to Adam and Adam's will and things like he contradicted himself

58:46

He got himself tied in a knot and he couldn't untie himself Because he didn't necessarily

58:54

Agree fully or practice even if he did agree Practice Calvin's motto.

59:00

We make an end of speaking where God has made end of speaking. And so maybe that's where Calvin goes look

59:08

The the scriptures are clear in Teaching that Jesus is

59:14

Yahweh Jesus identified as Yahweh and numerous passages and that means he is

59:20

God in and of himself and So whatever you do With the relationship of father and son even casting that back into his

59:32

Eternity itself. The reality is that it cannot be taken to the point

59:39

Where you can conceptualize the idea of the Sun? Not being out of chaos, but then becoming chaos by distribution from the father

59:51

So he saw that that necessarily leads to Some kind of form of subordination ism.

59:59

You can't avoid that and so Remember Calvin is dealing apologetically and you might say how

01:00:07

Europe was being invaded by Islam at that point in time and even though Calvin does not deal with Islam in any way like Luther did

01:00:18

He is fully aware of the fact that it's there I think he sort of saw some of the beginnings some of the rumblings of what would become so Sinianism over time

01:00:29

And he did deal with with heretics along those lines. And so he had an apologetic mindset that Forced him to analyze post -Nicene

01:00:42

Christological developments and go Okay to a point we can appreciate the

01:00:51

Statement that there is an eternal relationship between the father and the son But it is eternal and it cannot be logically made a source issue

01:01:02

To where you could ever conceive of the Sun as not fully God So he saw what the danger there was

01:01:09

I think maybe in a way that some of the later Post -Nicene fathers did not necessarily

01:01:18

Appreciate Because some of the later errors had not yet not yet developed so it's part of it is that and and part of it is

01:01:28

Honestly struggling to recognize when the scripture passages that we're looking at Can be meaningfully

01:01:37

Asserted to cast a light beyond Simply the economic

01:01:44

Trinity the the acts of father -son spirit in redemption in time and are actually going back to the

01:01:54

Relationship that exists between father son and spirit in before before creation itself and So John 5 would be one of those that I would go.

01:02:11

I That what's being said there is is relevant to their relationship

01:02:17

Outside of the Sun being sent and being the one who's going to judge and give life and all that Giving life and judging that that's all

01:02:25

Creation stuff. That's all satirical stuff. That's all redemption stuff. And so trying to See if that sort of says something about something else is pushing it a little bit too far in my opinion

01:02:38

Because a lot of my Learning about in Jesus being

01:02:45

God or Yahweh is actually kind of through you know listening to Muslim apologists and things you've done with other

01:02:55

Muslims and and Then in John 8 58 completely ignoring

01:03:04

Jesus's call calling himself of Ego a me, you know, so my search of looking into the depths of how he is

01:03:15

Yahweh, but also not wanting to Wanting to understand how that that him being

01:03:23

Yahweh is of himself not a As in he had to get it right, right

01:03:31

Right from the father. Yeah Yeah, that would that would be fundamentally problematic to say that the father

01:03:39

Because when we talk about Yahweh in this we were talking about the the very being of God Shared fully and completely by three divine persons if there is some kind of a situation to where you can consider

01:03:52

Jesus's participation in the divine nature being Mediated to him now.

01:03:58

I realized all of this even those who would emphasize that element of it are saying It's trans -temporal.

01:04:04

It's not it's not a time thing. It didn't begin to happen. It just always has been it's a characteristic of the relationship

01:04:15

Okay, that's really hard to because I Can see how you can go there.

01:04:23

It's the same It's the same issue that CS Lewis Raises in mere

01:04:30

Christianity because remember what he talks about there about the relationship the father and son is he says if you have two books sitting on a table

01:04:38

The one the top the one that is on the top of the other owes its position to the one that's below it

01:04:43

Now take that out of time to where they have always been there Then it simply becomes a description of their relationship not supremacy superiority

01:04:53

Derivation anything else so the the key issue to allow a person to talk about eternal generation the son as the son in a in a population of the father is to emphasize this this part right here and that is

01:05:10

However, you formulate that it can never be allowed to bring into the mind a

01:05:18

Time or a state when that situation was not the case so that the relationship is a characteristic of God's being

01:05:30

Not something that comes about through action in time Or even action in logic if you wanted to make it trans temporal so I think that might be one way to sort of put those two things together and be able to To emphasize

01:05:47

Jesus is Altaf a us because it is characteristic of the

01:05:53

Sun To have always borne this relationship to the father in Regards to the very nature of God the very being of God And that and that it could never be any other way

01:06:09

But unfortunately most discussion of begettal The the emphasis because of our own human language is it's almost as an act of will

01:06:19

You know something that the father does That results in a change in the being for the Sun and that's where the problem would lie

01:06:26

I think that's I think it's what Calvin saw too. I think that's what Calvin saw too Okay, well, hey, thanks for Thanks for your perseverance and in calling back and I apologize for the

01:06:38

I'll apologize on behalf of comrex as an entire company for having not been able to get shot the first time so Thanks for your call

01:06:46

Michael All right Yeah, this thing's gonna be good we were talking we were talking before the program started there's a new

01:06:58

BIOS update Just all of a sudden maybe that maybe someone at comrex listens to the program

01:07:05

That must have been what it and they were working feverishly on getting us a BIOS update Let's get the

01:07:10

BIOS update see if we can see we can keep this thing going We like to be able to talk to our folks without having spending a bunch bunch of money

01:07:16

To get a new a new phone system. So we'll go from there. All right, so hey Rich talked me into doing this program today.

01:07:24

So we're supposed to come back again tomorrow. So There you go Rich is Rich is getting me a little excited

01:07:34

About he's laughing in the other room. He's getting a little excited about this this this

01:07:41

This project we got some toys We've got some toys and we were just there's a what do you call that thing a magic board flip flip board

01:07:50

Samsung flip board? Samsung flip board and I'm I'm really thinking that this is gonna allow me to have

01:08:03

Like a papyrus and and blow it up and then

01:08:09

Sinaiticus over here and You know then bring in because they use this is the kind of stuff they use on ESPN Yeah, so, you know you have the rankings

01:08:21

Watch sports, I don't any longer except for cycling And so I'm sitting here going

01:08:29

Boy, you know you could have the 1830 Book of Mormon and then you could have the next edition and then the last edition and you could

01:08:38

You can and then we can we could have the the the hypocephalus from from the

01:08:45

Book of Abraham and you can turn it upside down and then read the parts and this is what it actually

01:08:50

There's a lot of cool stuff. Oh, yeah, and then you draw on it and circle it and move stuff around and Yeah, yeah.

01:08:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm What you can put p45 up there. Oh, of course.

01:09:03

Yes, of course drawn it Yeah, we're not drawn on that one So, yeah, so I'm sort of excited about what what could happen in the future and Could use that same type of thing in debates, too

01:09:16

I'm not sure how if my debate opponent was remote They would be able to see that unless we just gave them a straight -on feed of it or something like that But oh,

01:09:25

I think we could find ways to work it out rich says we'll find a way to work it out Yeah, we will definitely do that.

01:09:31

So but I'm getting sort of excited about it so we will we will press on the the carpets coming later this week and So we'll see

01:09:43

Now it still takes a lot of time to prep all that stuff I mean, it's one thing to be able to you know

01:09:49

Do all this stuff but you got to have a lot stuff loaded in know how to get it have it the right resolution it's a lot of work, but Given our graphically oriented society these days.

01:10:00

It might be might be pretty cool. So so there you go I'm excited about it. Thanks for watching the program today.

01:10:06

We'll be back tomorrow probably the same time I guess two o 'clock sounds good Our time five o 'clock back east.